 Hello and welcome to The Shakedown. Our mission is to inform people about how the criminal justice system works, the real people impacted by the justice system, and methods to improve justice through compassionate and casual conversation. Posts of The Shakedown share over 50 years of combined personal experience dealing with Texas prisons and working to change the criminal justice system. And now here's our show. I actually have a question for you guys just because we are talking about the access to it. It like depending on what obviously I don't know how like in depth you guys go just yet on like your stories but um what was the access to mental health there? Was it just seeing like a counselor and getting on meds if you needed it or they're really my experience. Go ahead Dave. Yeah, you got more. So my experience with the mental health in there is they you go like when you when I went in through intake you saw a shrink right you really didn't care ask you a bunch of questions are you okay it thoughts of suicide and all this and they're like okay bye right and so then I think it was two years later really bad oh but it's so true that they don't care um I shouldn't say that I shouldn't say they don't care but it appears that they don't um and then again about two years later I get what I guess is their mental health checkup for me and you know this is what it was called back in and was asked the same questions over again and said okay you can leave and that was it and they're just like you really don't have access to you know a therapist, a counselor, a shrink or anybody while you're in prison you know the only thing you're gonna have to do is I mean you're gonna have to figure it out yourself because they're not doing anything to help you. I was in there longer than these guys and I've seen different areas of kind of how they dealt with the situation in prison you know in the early 90s remember I got in there there was a lot of people that would try to you I mean there still are but it's not as prevalent as it was then because you know the work regimen was so brutal I mean they put you in the fields and all that and they wake you I mean I don't want to go I don't want to want to get into the description of what goes on in the fields but it's back breaking and it's more than a lot of people think so these guys try to use they try to fake mental illness to keep from you know to get some kind of some kind of medical reason why they can't go out to the fields or why they can't work or why they can you know some kind of to better their situation and so the the medical staff was so they it doesn't matter I mean you have if you don't have some kind of um demonstrable uh uh mental illness I mean you're I mean it's got to be to the point where there's just no denying it and maybe even then uh uh they still wouldn't help you because they feel like everybody that goes in that they treated everybody that went in there as if you're just trying to get out of work and I can speak to so I went in there and uh I have I have epilepsy and I have I don't have grand mal seizures I have petty mal seizures which means I have like small blackouts right and so when I was trying to get my like when I I tried to get like when I first got diagnosed I got put on all sorts of different medications like to to figure out your dosage on what's going to work and what's not going to work it took years it took years to figure it out and we finally got the dosage right finally got a schedule right and then no more seizures and then go then got um then I got locked up and then they're like no you can't have your medicine what we might first is just said you don't have epilepsy I was like we don't have in our records you didn't say it when you first came in I'm like yes I did I did say it and then they and then they're like and then they said well we're going to give you this I'm like that's not my medication that's not the same thing it's not that doesn't it doesn't work then they then they're like well you need to have a seizure in front of us like if you're going to have a seizure then you have to have it in front of us and then you can do it then you then we'll give you your medication let me just kind of drop like abracadabra what do you mean like a seizure in command like they say yeah like let me just grab my fingers let's go they're like they're like when you feel like you're going to have a seizure then you need to come to medical and then you need to show us I said I don't have grand mal seizures first of all so you can't really see it and they're like so you can't it's not like you're going to get a show I just black out and that's that's it and do they not know you're in a prison the point of being in a prison is you just can't walk around you just can't walk around whenever you want to you're locked in a cell right also like these are medical professionals talking to you about this correct or what they are they're not doctors they're not nurses they're what they're called they're providers is what they're called they're medical providers they're they don't have any sort of licenses or anything like that no no they do oftentimes it's uh oftentimes it's like a punishment for some kind of offense a lot of I'm not joking I'm not I am no that makes complete sense no one wants to work no no medical care individuals are working because it's horrible they no they hate it there they and they're also one thing we haven't mentioned they are trained all of them are trained that we all lie all they are all trained that we are liars but another thing that they don't really care because like the doctor there he's working a 40 hour week he's making probably a hundred grand a year for doing nothing you know he just goes in there and sits around surfs the internet and goes home yeah I've seen some that do care don't give me that you know you can't paint right like that there's one or there's a few for sure there are there's you know and it's that's one of the things I wanted to ask you about is you know how do individuals and rainforest is always really big on this whole idea that you know don't just complain about something be the change that you want to see you know that so you know what the what does every what does each one of us have to do to to uh to better this situation to bring us closer to the to the to the ideal healthcare situation for mental health I mean and another question on top of that is yeah and what what do you I mean in your mind what do you see is the ideal I mean how would you envision a world where mental health is dealt with uh properly okay so I'm gonna I'm gonna do this backwards so I'm gonna answer that question and then the other one because I have ADHD and that's the forefront um so um my I guess ideal perfect world with mental health is everybody's treated as a human we still we I have so having borderline not a lot of people know a ton about it it's BPD for sure it is not bipolar disorder um it is completely villainized because it's in the same cluster B as narcissistic personality disorder antisocial personality disorder and histrionic personality disorder and who had all three of those that were well known serial killers so as ridiculous as that sounds we get grouped in with them somebody saw on a true crime podcast that Jeffrey Dahmer may or may not have borderline and they're like oh like you and I'm like I don't eat my friends thank you so you know it's it's like there are varying degrees of different mental illnesses we are not awful people and we get villainized a lot like therapists will it's very hard to find a therapist that will treat borderline because it is so all over the place like it's it's very black and white so you can absolutely idolize somebody the next day and spit on their grave the next or yeah idolize them one day and spit on the grave the next and you don't know why it is just switched so therapy is really really difficult for a lot of therapists and I get they have to protect their peace and stuff like that so I you know I've been bumped down to um CPTSD because I don't have seven out of nine I've got like five or six out of nine at this point characteristics but that's just we're villainized we are not understood we are villainized and I feel like a lot of people that deal with very complex mental disorders or just misunderstood mental disorders are just kept at arm's length and I feel like perfect world mental health is a privilege it's almost a requirement not that like you have to go see a therapist but I think therapy would be good for everybody whether you are just dealing with some work stress or you know you're a new parent or something like that um the ADHD also gives me very long-winded answers so sorry but yeah so you know I just I feel like we need to start treating mental illnesses like we treat people with physical illnesses like you have diabetes you need medication to stay alive you have depression and anxiety you need that medication to a lot of the times stay alive why do we sit there and go do you really need it do you tell a diabetic do you really need your insulin do you do you no we don't we're like you need that to function so why are we doing that with you know people seeking therapy and seeking help and trying to undo generational curses or undo their trauma or undo whatever the fuck is going on in their head sorry didn't mean to first um whatever's going on in their head so I think that when we start really humanizing mental illness as a whole is when we're going to be making a change and for the second technically the first question of what can what do what do I think you guys I it sounds ridiculous but writing your representatives writing your congress people annoying the shit out of the governor because it's not going to change unless somebody on the up and up decides that it needs to change so the more people that are in their ear going this is a problem we need to find a solution the more the squeaky wheel gets the grease or whatever that saying is I really feel like the more we're we're talking about it and the more we're annoying our representatives that this is their job the more we may actually start to move things in a different direction how do you so when you're talking about that and writing your congressman one of the big things that comes up in congress a lot is they do talk about mental health and it is it's the villain it's the reason that there's school shootings it's the reason that there's this or that and the the what ends up being the result of that is well we just anyone who has a mental health problem we need to take away more of their rights like yeah that's not how that works yeah and so how do you take what you're saying and then turn that like make it so that they're not taking away rights we're getting everyone help I think a lot of mental mentally ill people and mental illness in general is not seen as an actual illness it's seen as a problem that we just want to shove in the closet and pretend doesn't exist so we pretend to do things and we talk a big game and then we're just like okay that goes in the closet and we don't know more we don't have to talk about it anymore like we only have to talk about it when it's in our faces and we need to humanize it I'm sorry I'm gonna keep jumping over you know you're coming into prison in the early 90s I can remember that they uh they made a lot of attempts to uh to kind of turn prisons into a quasi uh mental health treatment thing they would take these prisoners that were convicted of of crimes and and then turn and then while they're in prison all of a sudden now now that you're mentally ill and and um they're gonna try and treat you it was a it was a what I'm trying to say is is that they were using prisons were a very convenient way to get this to get a problem out of the public's face it's not it's not a problem anymore if you can just you know chunk these people in prison just throw it just throw them outside of the view of everyone and that's that was a whole lot of what was going on it's really sad I was always taken by the the uh catch 22 situation that they wanted both ways when you're standing in front of a judge a da will will go on and on to a jury or to a judge about how competent you are and how you how in control that you were and how thought out any crime that you may have done was you know to uh to illustrate just how culpable each individual is to get you as much time as they possibly can and then as soon as you walk in the door they they they can't wait to tell you how crazy you are and that you're dangerous because of your craziness and so you can't be let go they even came up with uh I mean and don't get me wrong this is for a small subset of very unlikable people sex offenders but they came up with a thing called a um uh what it's called a commit civil commitment now it's that this idea started in florida sometime in the 90s where you had a guy that was done with his prison sentence and they and everybody started panicking because they were saying he was nuts which I they were saying was crazy and that they didn't want to release because he was dangerous because he was crazy which in my mind for the first thing I thought was if he was so crazy why didn't he go to an insane asylum why was he in a prison he would have never had you wouldn't be dealing with this issue right now if you didn't send him to prison you he would have been getting treatment this entire time so uh judges can't you know said of course you can't keep him in prison any longer than his sentence he has to be let go so they came up with this concept of civil commitment that that they were going to have doctors going to examine you and that if they determined that you were uh weren't saying well then they would take you straight from prison and then put you into a mental institution and and and they where they could keep you indefinitely and they and they're doing that right now but they're only doing it with sex offenders but I've seen how you know things oftentimes start with the uh the people that you can at least uh you know um uh defend like sex offenders and once that ball starts rolling then it gets into everyone it's going to get real ridiculous which is concerning yeah because I was going to ask you were they actually treating or were they just shoving a bunch of pills down people's throats and being like you're cured if yes there's a there was a lot of the pill thing that that's primarily what was going on there's it was thorazine whenever I first got there was like the main thing and you know it's and other over time you know other drugs have had the popularity they were over prescribing them to people I mean guys were walking around just just just dead eyed and drooling and medication I'm not not getting medication at all I think medication is fantastic when used properly and also used with therapy and coping skills and life skills and stress management so I'm not knocking medication at all I'm just saying like you can't shove a pill at a problem and call it a day that's not how that works definitely not what that's what Dave was talking about at the beginning he was talking about the thorazine shuffle that a lot of inmates especially at medical units that's what they you would you would see them walking around on I mean they call pill window in that case I have not heard in a minute oh yeah see a lot of people you know and then you have that's just crazy because yeah they just want to medicate them to keep them calm give them a tv as a babysitter and you know that kind of that's kind of how it is in like the I guess real world as well like they just want to give you pills and if the pills don't work well why don't the pills work you just haven't found a pill that works I medication doesn't work on me therapy does medicate I have been on I got a list longer than like some kids list to Santa on medications I've been on and they didn't work what worked was unpacking a lot of things in therapy and stuff like that and like I said I know friends I have friends that are on medication and that medication has saved their life but it you can't just shove a pill at somebody and call it a day that is it's not it doesn't how that works the math ain't mathen and you know that's you know you talk about that you know the guy um the guy that started valium or whatever it's like these big pharma companies they just push push push push push pills well because it's a profit you know it's like exactly totally it's like you know they don't want to see people go to therapy because that means the medication won't work and if they do see therapy they want to see you on Adderall or this or that or Xanax or something else they want to see you on something some kind of drug because it lines their pocket you know yeah or you get like where where I live in western New York we have such such a terrible like awful opioid crisis opioid crisis that you can't get meds that people actually would need for mental health like trying to get Adderall around here is insane oh Houston Houston's the same way there's no pharmacies in town that have it no and like I got off of it because I had there was such a shortage and it worked like the first round that I was on it it was great and now I found different supplements that work a little bit better along with just ADHD management but I mean that's the thing like but I've got friends in other states that are like yeah I got a Xanax prescription like no problem and I was like you can get Xanax like they're not prescribing it here yeah it's in Houston that's a big thing is Xanax everybody and so you can't get Xanax either and so they got all this fake Xanax coming you know that runs through that smart well you know so um Kerry Blakinger uh she has a podcast right she was talking about she went to tested a bunch of Adderall in Mexico unless the Adderall she tested tested for methamphetamines and not amphetamines and a lot of that coming over here and getting sold you know pharmacies yeah I could tell every single time I could tell which batch of Adderall actually worked because I would get a new manufacturer like almost every time every other month I had a new like it was either the amphetamine salts or like the D something or whatever yeah and one would actually work and the other one I was like why am I taking this because I'm not doing shit you know so I'm not surprised that things are being manufactured not correctly yeah that does surprise me either because they're gonna they're just going you know and big pharma just wants their money they don't care and you know that's a part of the problem too is they don't care no they won't as long as they're making a profit who cares about whether it's actually working or if it's you know actually good for somebody's system exactly it's all sure all the money right and inside we didn't talk about so one well like they really did not want inmates to have medications because that kind of that cost them money and then two if you actually were able to get your like hands on like if you could prove that you had this condition and like could get all the steps to go through it they did have a psychiatrist at most of the id units they I don't think they were at the transfer facilities but like at the the long-term housing units that you had like like if you were in prison for five years you weren't going to an id unit so you would never there wasn't even be possible to like see one unless you got shipped to an id unit um and then for for those for a long haul you go to an id unit and then they you go see a psychiatrist the psychiatrist um which I also think is only at certain units had psychiatrists not all of them did they would they would just basically regiment your dose of what medication you were on which was going to be some generic of something and of the limited medications it's not like you'd have a full pharmacy there to choose from and that that would be be it and that's what that's what guys have at prison and like if you wanted to have a visit like you say hey I need to go visit the psychiatrist the psychiatrist or you need to go get on some sort of medication or like do something at medical you'd have to send an i-60 in one day it might get responded to that night or the next day then you'd get called in um and it's going to take usually minimum it's probably going to take two hours like usually you have to sit and wait to get called in um that's another hour right you're going to get caught and count at least once you usually get caught and count twice especially if you're going to go see it like a psychiatrist because the psychiatrist takes their sweet time they're just trying to get through the day with this little work as possible and they're and they're just gonna um and then you're going to get caught and count at least twice but that's assuming that the officer at the your dorm says like um what is it you're they they listen to your lay in like the a lot of times they won't they won't even abide by it because you're let you have a lay in that's what's supposed to let you go to medical sometimes officers like no they'll call it out and that's fact and so then you don't even though you have a pass to go to medical they won't let you go and sometimes you get to medical and medical would be like hey where'd you been and we're like you're like well if i could have got out of myself or if i could have got out of the trusty camp i would have been here but they wouldn't let me out and you know and it's just it's just because they don't care again you know it's like the dorm boss doesn't care they just like it's just sad the whole thing i'm so glad to be away from there they don't see 90 of you as human beings that's really probably boys don't you they're they're trained not to see us as human beings i mean i think huh what what do you think dave come on no i was gonna say i think that you know that for the most part that people that are incarcerated get more therapy from the volunteers that come in through like the religious organizations because those people actually care you know and that was gonna be it's not a lot they don't get much but it's like at least they get something you know they're getting you know that was gonna be another thing i was gonna ask heather yeah heather uh uh said that one of the things that you want you know people to do is to write their their representatives and that's all that's that's very smart that's i mean it's a good idea but i i i'm wondering if there's another you know that's that's a top down kind of solution i wonder if there's a bottom up solution like it's something that that we all can do or something that we can get together and do that could that could be a start to help one person you can find shakedown merch graphic novels and other projects at waywardpress.com that's w-a-y-w-o-r-d-press.com if you would like to support the shakedown get exclusive content and watch episodes live you can support us at patreon.com slash the shakedown like subscribe and leave a comment to give more on that inner peace he so richly deserves