 I'm Scott Rouse, I'm a Body Language Expert and Analyst and I train law enforcement in the military in interrogation and in body language, and I created the number one online body language course, Body Language Tactics with Greg. Mark. I'm Mark Bowden. I'm an expert in human behavior and body language. I help people all over the world to stand out, win trust, gain credibility. Every time they communicate, including some of the leaders of the G7. Chase. Hey, I'm Chase Hughes. I did 20 years of the U.S. military. I wrote the number one best-selling book on behavior, profiling and influence and persuasion. You can get free training in this stuff by texting me at the number below. Text me the word training. Greg. Greg Hartley. I'm a former Army interrogator, interrogation instructor, resistance to interrogation instructor. I've written 10 books on body language and behavior, put together this BodyLinguageTactics.com course with Scott, and I spend most of my time on Wall Street or corporate America. All right. Well, today we're going to be talking about a guy named Gable Tosti, an Australian guy. And what happened was, Greg, why don't you, you found the videos, why don't you explain what happened? Yeah, so this is a 2014 case. He had a tender date. It escalates. We'll let you figure out what's going on in here. There's an escalation. There's some violence occurs. He ends up locking her out on the balcony through force, takes her out, puts her on the balcony, locks her there, and she falls to her death. Now we're not going to go into the details of the case and all the mechanics of it. We're going to cover his body language, his behavior, but know that they were, they had just met each other and they went back to his place and he's 14 floors up. He was tried for murder and acquitted. So he's not a convicted murderer. What we're going to watch here is what he says and how he responds to this 60 minutes Australia interviewer who's asking him questions about what happened that night, how everything played out. We'll also warn you that we will point out when we get to it, but there are a couple of these videos that are pretty graphic in terms of sound and that, and it may be triggering for some folks who will let you know. Yeah. All right. Here we go. On that night, you hit the record button on your phone. Why did you do that? Well, the question isn't so much why do I do that? But why wouldn't you do that? Because I obviously, I used to go out quite a lot drinking. I don't have the best memory when I, when I drink. In this day and age, hitting record is, I mean, recording your night out as easy as pressing a button and leaving your phone in your pocket. But what for? It's it's more of a just in case thing because you better off having something and not needing it, then needing something and not having it. And just in case what? Just in case, well, you know, the thing that happened on the 8th of August, 2014 is a perfect example. All right, Greg, what do you got? Well, yes, in fact, the question is why would you not? Maybe the question should be. So he's trying to reframe the question. I think he thinks he has a moment of brilliance there. But when he does, he takes a deep breath like he has an answer. And then he goes, uh, uh, and he does the squirrel in the road thing. He goes for this side, realizes the wheels are still there and goes for that side. He uses, I'm going to coin this phrase this time. He uses chaff and, uh, it's not used to have redirect. He starts down a path and suddenly just stops midstream and then tries to reframe it. I think, Chase, you always talk about perception management. That's this entire video is perception management. When he gets to that chaff and, uh, he starts to then use some distancing language about the thing that happened. And then immediately does the trading guilt thing to say, I often went out and drank a lot. And the only time I see any real emotion in him at all is there may be a little bit of disgust because of the shape of his face. It's hard to tell when he talks about that thing that happened in 2014. We're talking about the life of a young woman and we're talking about him locking her on the balcony and her, whether whatever happened, that caused her to fall to her death. So he is trying to take control. He's trying to chaff and redirect, but he doesn't know how he's prepared. He takes a deep breath to say something and then doesn't know exactly what he wants to say. I don't think that this is going to go the way he expects. Uh, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, thanks. So, uh, vocal click right off the, off the bat there. First thing is this sound. And that, that's always interesting to hear. Always suggests maybe some dryness in the mouth and maybe some biding of time. Maybe both of those things are possible. I think he freezes, first of all, as well. That's that, you know, squirrel in the road. They're Greg, I think. Lock's eye contact. That's very interesting. Low blink rate. So I'm thinking of something that chase that you always say about this idea of focus. So is it, is it the freeze of fight or flight? Or is it the freeze and the locking of eye contact of focus? Not sure at this place, but I agree with you, Greg, reframes there to ask for proof of a negative as a frame for action taken. So that's quite convoluted. But, but ultimately what it is net net is a piece of very, um, faulty logic. If somebody asks you to prove a negative, they've already started down some faulty logic there. But I think you're right, Greg. I think he's quite pleased by what he's done there. He thinks it's, it's, it's pretty smart and pretty clever. What he's done there, not really. Anyway, he says, obviously, um, obviously, and this, this bad memory. Obviously, I drink, obviously, I won't be able to remember a great deal. And right at the end, the thing that happened, that for me would be distancing. So plenty happening straight off the bat on that first one. Chase, what do you got on this one? Well, the question isn't what do I have, but why wouldn't I have anything in the first place? I kind of feel brilliant just saying that it feels good. So you can see, as the interviewer is asking him this question, you can see the eyes dart around. So I want you to kind of view the eyes when you're talking to anybody. When you see this, this is kind of like the file clerk going and searching in all kinds of different locations for data. We're more likely to see this during deception, but I wouldn't say it's a direct suggestion of deception because it depends on the complexity of the question being asked. When he's saying, I used to go out drinking, he's setting up his narrative like we always see, we're talking to someone, their narrative is going to come out, and this is about memory. I can't remember everything that clearly. And I think we're going to see some problems with that coming up. But he says a couple of things using his own language. He says, I did a couple of things. I used to go out drinking and I suffered memory loss. But then he says, your phone in your pocket, you're better off having something, shifting everything to you, listening and watching because he wants you to identify with it. And keep in mind, that's an unconscious thing. He's not playing this out. And then it's just in case, well, you know, the thing that happened the 8th of August, 2014, this is a perfect example of distancing and then trying to sweep the tracks behind you by throwing in something specific. And this again, unconscious, I'm going to throw out some specificity here with that exact accurate date. So all the other stuff sounds, maybe I'll just finish up with that note, and it's the accuracy of the date makes him feel like I think he's giving accurate information. So it's just designed to fill holes in your mind as you listen to this. And when we wrap up with something very factual, we're more likely to remember him as being factual during his speech, maybe not in this case, but that's called the recency effect that we can trigger if we end the conversation on a certain note, how you will be remembered. Scott, what do you got? All right, cool. That's good. When we're looking for deception or somebody's being goofy, we start looking for cues and we start looking for clusters of cues. In this case, when he answers the question, we see a bunch of him, he locks eyes. That's one of the things when somebody starts asking questions, they lock eyes. This guy's blink rate is like almost nothing. It's almost like he's a mannequin. And he locks eyes when he says, well, and there's a pause, then it repeats the question. He pauses again, then he rephrases the question, pauses again, and then he answers. And just right out of that, you go, holy, I'm sure you guys felt the same way I did. You saw this, oh, this is going to be a good one. And then he says, well, the question isn't so much why I did that, but why wouldn't you do that? So again, that's he's beginning to distance himself from from what happened. And we're seeing a mix of of micro expressions as well. We're seeing anger and contempt as he goes through these things. At the same time as Chin comes down, which is limbic reactions, guard his throat. You see that quite often when somebody's getting ready when they're they're not the aggressor in the front, their chin is up. Hey, come on, let's do this, man. Their chin will go down, OK, well, I'm ready if you are and their their chin will come down. And he feels a little bit of thread, I think, there. So his chin comes down just a bit. It's it's it's really small. It's nothing huge, but look for it because it's there. And then he and he adjusts his entire upper body as he prepares to answer. So he's getting ready for this. And I think a lot of these answers are already prepared because he's been through court with these so far. So he's been trained. He's been prepped on how to answer these questions. And on when he says and on the word because we see a micro expression of his nostrils flair, which indicates anger. And then we also see contempt and we're seeing contempt. It's they both go up. So it's almost like an anger thing, but we have one go up just a little bit more on this side. It's not quite in the ubiquitous obicularis oculi area in here. It's just on this this side right here, mostly. And he's doing that because he's anticipating the trouble that that's coming. So I think he's almost bracing himself at the same time. A lot of things going on here that are odd for a non volatile personality type. So I think this guy is really volatile. We'll get into that, obviously, in a little bit. And the interrogator, the interviewer says, in case of what? He says, just in case, you know, the thing that happened on August 8th, 2014 is a perfect example, like Greg was saying, that's that he doesn't even. It's so demeaning of him to say the thing that happened. You know, but he doesn't want to say he's just continues to distance himself away from it. Now, we see on the way he says thing, we see a micro expression of anger that the teeth can the bottom lip comes down just a little bit. But you can see those eyes going to slow it up here. And that is the obicularis oculi. And then is in the both parts of this on the side of his nose come up a little bit as well. It goes again about the thing. But then let's see what else. I just get goes on and on. There's so many. It's all everything we're seeing in here indicates anger. All the micro expressions and there are tons of them. I go back through here and watch this again. Tons of micro expressions of anger. OK, I'm good. Anybody else on that night? You hit the record button on your phone. Why did you do that? Well, the question isn't so much why do I do that? But why wouldn't you do that? Because I obviously I used to go out quite a lot drinking. I don't have the best memory when I when I drink. And in this day and age, hitting record is I mean, recording recording your night out as easy as pressing a button and leaving your phone in your pocket. But what for? It's it's more of a just in case thing because you better off having something and not needing it than needing something and not having it. And just in case what? Just in case. Well, you know, the thing that happened on the 8th of August 2014 is a perfect example. At 1.35 a.m., things started getting heated. Marina, clearly drunk, accuses Gable of stealing her phone. Destroy your jaw. It's not funny. OK, she's pretty angry there. Yeah. Why is she so angry? She can't find her phone. Um, I'm not sure why she got so angry like that. But we were looking for a phone, apparently, and she couldn't find it. And she seemed to be blaming me for that. And I was offering to, you know, call her phone to help her find it. And did you know where it was? No, I didn't know where it was. OK, but at the time, you know, as we just heard, she says, do you want me to destroy your jaw? Yeah. So had she already hit you? Um, at that stage, it was kind of what I understood to be play-fighting. But as you'll see throughout the night, it got worse and worse. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so what interests me about listening to their two voices is that he says, you know, he gets drunk and he can't remember stuff. And yet he seems to sound to me to be in a very different state than her. From my point of view, though, there is some slurring in the words, I think, which aren't part of his accent or aren't part of the same speech pattern that I see when he has he's doing this interview. So I would imagine that there is some some intoxication there. It doesn't sound to me to be to the extent that he might suggest that it should be on an evening out or an evening back back in if he's a drinker. And I think we're going to see that in his movement later on as well. So that's an interesting discrepancy for me. Very different states that they're in, I think. The confusion that we see in the forehead, the knitting of the brows, it kind of gets held there. Feels to me like it's maybe put on there, maybe a bit of a mask that he might be putting in possibly. The inbreath and then the cough seems to me again out of place, maybe playing for time, maybe trying, you know, trying to cover up the thinking process that's going on. We see the cheek muscle move just slightly on. No, I didn't know where it was. Now, is that is that a hint of duping delight there? Is it the distaste and bitterness? I think if you read, Greg gave me the transcript, gave us all the transcript of this. If you read the transcript, I'm not saying you should. It adds a lot of complication into everything that we're talking about right now and there is in the transcript an idea that that she had the phone. She found the phone that it was maybe in her possession, not his possession. That adds some complications in there and suggests to me, maybe it's disdain or disgust about this lost phone that he wasn't anything to do with that. So so I'm going to move away from duping delight on that and towards disdain or disgust, simply because of that, that transcript that I've that I've seen. What I understood to be play fighting and his eyes close on that, I would expect with the idea of play fighting that the eyes might open a little bit more rather than close and block and maybe emulate the kind of what most people's eyes do. If you get into a fight, they'll they'll close up. If you're if you're skilled and you're practiced in fighting, then your eyes open up and you move further into the into the fight. So I would expect for him the eyes would the the eyes on play would open up, they close. So is that emulating the you know, dealing with the violence that was there at the time? Is it shame? Is it regret? I think all of these are possibilities at this point because I don't know the case. I'm just going through video by video and looking at the possibilities and the opportunities for what this could be at this point. Scott, what do you got? All right. When she says, I'll destroy your job. It's not funny. He wences and we see his lips compressed and we see a micro expression of anger. And he looks down almost like in shame, like a child would. So I think I think look at this guy from we've seen all the videos and having gone through and say, I think this guy's not very smart at all. And I think I think a lot of things we're seeing are still reactions that a child would have. They're similar to that. And he says, she seemed to be blaming me for that for the for her missing phone. He said I was offering to help her find her phone. So like he's doing something good, I'm trying to help her, man. You know, he's trying to position himself as a good person in this. We see a macro expression of anger. And that's when they were right there. So we do seem obitulary. So I can have no squinch up a little bit and then on both sides of his nose. Come up and you see that's a little bit more of his teeth. These are all classic cues of anger. So I think we're dealing with someone who has anger issues, obviously. But this one and keep in mind as we go through these, we're tell we know what's happened and we're telling you where you're seeing that happen. We're just telling you what we're seeing. We're defining those cues we're seeing. So when you see somebody else do that, you'll say, oh, I know what that is. I recognize that. I understand. So we're not just going through. You're going, oh, he squints and he does this and does that. That's this. We're doing it for your benefit. So you'll understand what you're seeing somewhere else, not not here. You understand what's going on here, but you'll understand it out in the wild. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, I agree with you guys. I think this facial expression of like concern and attention that he's showing are artificial because they disappear from the face. They don't fade and they're not at the right time. And he then shifts to this fake confusion to show us all that he doesn't understand why she's getting upset. And the cough is a really common one for people to buy time. And I think it's probably fake. That's my opinion. It's not a fact. But I think he's welcoming this interruption from the interviewer. You can see after he's trying to buy the time, the interviewer kind of chops in. I think that's welcomed. And right. Did you know where the phone was? There's a micro expression of a smile. And I had to watch this a few times because micro expressions are really hard to spot, even for experts. I went through here and it took me a minute. So if you want to spot this when we air this clip again, try try it by reaching up and covering the lower half of his face and just watch the eyes right at that moment. Did you know where the phone was? And right when he says play fighting, I think this is a false facial expression. I agree with you, Scott. It doesn't match the words and it doesn't match based on timing and when when the expression comes up on the face. I'll leave it at that. Greg, what do you got? Yeah. So again, I think this is all about perception management. Use your words, Chase. I think he is still trying to manage how this guy perceives him. And he has no idea how this guy perceives him. I don't think he's very cognizant of that. And I think you're right, Scott. I don't know that he's necessarily a gas fired operation. You might be wood fired from what I can see. But you can tell they were pretty drunk in here. And his brow starts to show this kind of concern, this kind of confusion, whatever you want to call it. But there's some kind of negative emotion in there. And I think that's part of his perception management. Hey, I didn't know why this was going on. Well, we were looking for her phone apparently. He does a throwaway. What you would call fading facts, what I would say a throwaway. Yeah, it means nothing. When you're talking about his cough, what I think his cough is, and we'll see it come again, not the cough. When fighter flight starts to hit this guy, his respiration starts to change. And when he gets his respiration out of tune with his speaking, he coughs, I think, to clear up that moment. It can be a delaying technique as well. But I do think his breathing and his speaking were out of sync because his respiration is up so high at this point. We were looking for a phone apparently. You could tell there's turmoil throughout the night. He swallows and has stress is the reason I think that that breathing rate is a good indicator that he's got fighter flight going on. And he does this after he says no, he mouth grooms. As he is a turn the camera and you see him across the way, you see him running his tongue around the inside of his mouth. So I think he's starting to get a dry mouth. Then he says at this stage and you see that kind of disapproval at the side of his mouth, what I understood to be play fighting. Well, what I understood is a distancing term here. I think he knew it wasn't play fighting, whatever was going on between them, whatever it is, because he's got his hands crossed or his arms crossed. And he's got his hands moving so he's in sacred space. He's adapting. And suddenly we start to hear his cadence shift and he starts to pick up some arms, um, um, um, um. So those are good indicators that something's going on inside his brain. That his brain, I would say the first skill you lose is the most sophisticated skill of human beings. And that's language. Once your brain goes in and that reticular activation system kicks in, you stop losing, you stop having the ability to finish thoughts and use language effectively. So we're starting to see some stress and that I think is tied to his perception management piece. That's what I got. I'm going to put a collection of these videos together where Greg's doing this, start collecting those. Yeah, because when your hands start doing this, that's it. OK, that's what I've ever imitated. That's what it's going to be. At 1.35 a.m., things started getting heated. Warena, clearly drunk, accuses Gable of stealing her phone. Just to reassure you, it's not funny. OK, she's pretty angry there. Yeah. Why is she so angry? She can't find her phone. I'm not sure why she got so angry like that, but we were looking for her phone apparently and she couldn't find it and she seemed to be blaming me for that and I was offering to, you know, call her phone to help her find it. And... Did you know where it was? No, I didn't know where it was. OK, but at the time, you know, as we just heard, she says, do you want me to destroy your jaw? Yeah. So, had she already hit you? At that stage, it was kind of what I understood to be play-fighting, but as you'll see throughout the night, it got worse and worse. It's at this point the six-foot-three Gable becomes menacing, threatening Warina with a choice of words the prosecution would later use to try to convict him. You're lucky I haven't tried to kill a f***ing balcony. Just a horribly, horribly unfortunate choice of words without having any idea what, you know, would happen next. You're lucky I haven't thrown you off the balcony. Yeah, and I didn't intend that as a threat. I intended it as a figure of speech to say, you're lucky I've been so tolerant with you. I know, but Gable, has it turned out? I know how it looks. It's absolutely, you know, it's a shocker. It is the worst, you know, to even mention the balcony. It's the worst choice of words one could have used. All right, Chase, what do you got? You can see him prepping his facial expressions before the audio replay is finished. I think that's really interesting. And it's telling that he's rehearsing how he's going to emotionally respond to this question. And he's got this instant response. It's ready to go and it's offered with no remorse, no regret, just a bunch of lodging. And what's interesting here, and I'll leave this up to you, ask yourself, why is no emotion being seen here? But more importantly, why is no emotion ever used to tell his story? And we tend to sell based on how we're sold. So if we don't deal in emotions every day or ever, we won't use them to persuade people. When he says mentioning the balcony was the worst choice of words, I thought that was a good data point because maybe not threatening to kill her was a bad choice of words. Calling her a B might have been a poor choice of words or calling her a psycho might have been a poor choice of words. Nope, just the ones that hurt him. I thought that was very interesting. And it's also, he doesn't say the worst choice of words I could have used. He says it's the worst choice of words one could have used. So there's more distancing language. All of the guilt is distanced and separated from him and it's made to go into your head. So it makes sense on his level for you that he's separated from the crime or from the action that was going on. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, totally agree on that choice of words one could have used, complete distancing. Should have used the word I for sure. So the interviewer knows what he's doing here and knows he has him towards the ropes, shall we say? And we see this rye one-sided smile from the interviewer at this point. The subject here shows disgust. Very slightly, the gestures he makes facially can be tiny, tiny, tiny as everybody's been saying. So you wanna look through that video, slow it down if you can, capture those little moments but there's certainly minute disgust there. Still this focused eye contact. There's an eye block there, is that, is that shame? I'm not sure at this point. Didn't, did not intend that as a threat. He gives a kind of a one-sided chin jut, which is interesting. And the word that came to mind for me is this idea of per se. I did not intend that as a threat per se. I think is what he's doing with his chin there. To kind of just soften this idea, I think. Lovely that the interviewer at the end says it's a shocker, which is a great Australian phrase and the side of his mouth turns up there. Now again, is this disdain from the interviewer or could it for him even be Dupers delight? Because look, the interviewer here is picking and choosing what he's showing. I have no doubt in my mind there is more than a bad lad going on here. But at the same time, we do have a media and an interviewer here who has chosen carefully the elements of this tape that are being shown. And again, if you go back to the transcript, there's all kinds of complications in there. I don't think it changes the outcome of this in any way, but I am interested in the interviewer here. Maybe there is a slight sense from him of certainly delight in how he's putting this subject probably quite rightly into a corner here. Greg, what do you got on this one? But this guy, whether or not he did something to cause this girl to die doesn't matter. This is the only time we see emotion out of this guy so far. And I can see some emotion in him here that I couldn't see before. There's uncertainty in how he's perceived. Watch that brow rise. More than anything I've seen to now, his brow rises as he's telling the story and as he's asking the questions. And that's a request for approval. He's trying to get some kind of buy-in with this person, trying to make some kind of connection. You see some asymmetry in his mouth whether that's from how he's being perceived and some distaste or that. And then his eyes drop down to his right. We typically associate that with emotion as he's starting to have this conversation. I believe that the emotion is about the fact he's being perceived poorly. We're back to this perception management. He shakes his head and you can see that change in his breathing, shortness of breath and increase of respiration. And that's increasing his fight or flight. You can see that this whole thing is running through. My favorite part of the entire thing, Chase usually pointed this one out. The minute he says it was a poor choice of words, his lips lock shut. And it's the only time I think I see a lip compression in this entire thing to now. And I think it's not just snap shut. That's as good as he gets for a lip compression with holding information and that's the end. And I'll leave it at that. Scott, what do you got? All right. Yeah, you guys nailed a bunch of this stuff. The expressions we're seeing are so small. This is the most deadpan person we've done so far. I mean, it's like almost nothing most of the time unless you know what to look for. And that's why we're folks, you're here in the same micro expressions every two seconds. So we see micro expression of disgust after he says sadness and then after he says without and then one of sadness right after that. So I think he's feeling some emotions in here. I don't think they're really big or they're not enough to show anything on his face. But then after without any idea of what would happen next, we hear that deep inhale. And I think that's indicating stress from what he's just said and what he's getting ready to say as well. Because I think again, he's been prepped for this answer. I think he's been prepped for all these we're gonna hear pretty much. There's a couple of them that are kind of iffy in there but he's ready for this one. Then after being confronted with the threat, again, he looks down like a child. His cadence slows down, his voice gets a little bit quieter and he starts looking like a kid again. This goes back to I'm certain kind of weird childhood thing but his expressions to change in here for some of these questions and they don't at all. And that's really on especially for non-violent or non-volatile personality type. And Chase, you got that when he's, when he's distances, distances himself when he says, to even mention the balcony is the worst choice of words that one could have used. And he says one and not I, I think that, come on man. He's almost predicting what's gonna happen. Yeah, so I don't know, this is, it's not funny. It's not funny, but it's hilarious. Anyway, that's all I got. It's at this point, the six foot three gable becomes menacing. Threatening warina with a choice of words the prosecution would later use to try to convict him. You're lucky I haven't tried to kill a fucking balcony. Just a horribly, horribly unfortunate choice of words without having any idea what, you know, would happen next. You're lucky I haven't thrown you off the balcony. Yeah, and I didn't intend that as a threat. I intended it as a figure of speech to say you're lucky I've been so tolerant with you. I know, but Gable, has it turned out? I know how it looks. It's absolutely, you know, it's a shocker. It is the worst, you know, to even mention the balcony. It's the worst choice of words one could have used. We good? Yeah, but the next video we've got coming up is a little bit harrowing. Yeah, make sure if you have children, don't, you know, if they're sitting over there or something, don't, because this is a lot of yelling for help and no, and that kind of thing. Yeah, it gets real graphic. So yeah, let's be careful with that. We heard warina scream no 33 times and she was begging to go home. Why didn't you just use the front door? You mean after I disarmed her? Whenever. You had multiple opportunities. Well, the first thing I did was try to make her walk out the front door. But you restrained her again? After she took the clamp. For the second time, you had control of her and you still chose not to use the front door. Why didn't you just use the front door? Because that's only a question that you can ask in hindsight when you have to desperately get someone away from you and separate the two of you and try and de-escalate an altercation. It doesn't come into the equation that that person is going to climb off a balcony and fall to 14 floors to their death. But Gable, regardless, you had control of her. You were six foot three. She was five foot four. How far is it between the front door and the balcony door? How many? A lot closer to the balcony door and it was wide open and it was the logical option at the time. Greg, what do you got? So I got a lot on this one. In the beginning, he starts off with concern in his brow and then his face is kind of compressed. Like we say, this guy doesn't have a lot of body language in his face, but you do see his eyes narrow, which we typically associate with anger or some distaste, whichever depending on how everything goes together. His blink rate actually goes up. You see his blink rate increase. It goes to some kind of normal human blink rate as opposed to what he's been doing to now. There's a heavy swallowing and then he eye blocks. His face is flushed. And if you go back and look at him in the first video and look at him now, you can see his face is hollowing. So he's feeling fight or flight. He also then his respirations up, his chin drops. So he's showing some shame and he's got fight or flight going on with this. That doesn't mean he kills her, that he killed her intentionally or this happened intentionally. What it means is his perception management is failing and he's keenly aware of it. It's really hard to be a good guy when you're here and he said he's a good guy. This is also the first time we've seen any kind of true grimace at the sides of his mouth. And it's kind of disapproval for what the guy's thinking is what I believe it is. You can see his pulse increase. You can see his mouth dry as he starts moving and you can hear that click. And he's doing sacred space, he's moving those hands now. And when he's asked how, why didn't you put her out the front door like a normal sober human? He comes up again with one of these kind of equivocating questions from the beginning. It was close, it was open. And so he does that chaff and redirect. What would an ordinary, this is a reasonable man test. What would a reasonable man do if he had a five foot four woman and she was tearing his place up and he was upset with her. Maybe call 911 if you're in the US or whatever the number is in Australia. Maybe walk out, maybe put her out the front. And then the most interesting of all these things he avoids like all hell, the word fight, fight. He says every word but fight because he knows he's already, he's pointed out you're six, three, she's five, four. That's not going to go anywhere good. And then there's just, I think this is the guy that you're seeing here is the real person that we are, should expect to see because he's feeling that this is coming home to haunt him and all of that screaming, no one can help it. No one can help but see that piece coming up. Scott, what do you got? All right, yeah. So this is a treasure trove of micro expressions and especially focusing on anger. And keep in mind, we're talking about expressions but she saw that expression on his face that we're not going to see that monster expression when he was doing all that stuff to her. And she's like you said, she's a little bitty thing, man, she's five, four compared to a six foot three guy who's like in shape. So, and this is another classic example, I think of a prepped dancer. So he's ready for this one. Of course, he's been asked this in court as well. So that's why, it's probably why he didn't have a problem doing this interview or didn't, he had a problem with it but he didn't personally say, oh, I shouldn't do it. So he did it. He said when the interviewer asked why didn't you just use the front door and he gives that lame excuse, you're that lame answer of after I disarmed her, you usually say disarmed when you're talking about somebody with a gun or a knife or they actually have a real weapon and not some five foot four inch girl with some kind of a whatever the whole thing was she had to swing around, try to keep him off her. And he tries to make her sound threatening. Everything, every time he starts talking about it, it makes it sound like she's the threatening person. Like he's defending himself over this. And whenever he had multiple opportunities, we hear this when the interviewer says that, we hear this quick breath and that denotes almost excitement for him, I think. Because again, his answer's prepared and he knows he's gonna come out and say, I've got the answer and feel good about the answer he's got or he feels good about the answer he's got. So his cadence is a little bit more forceful. It's louder. His diction actually cleans up a little bit there. It gets fairly clean. His tone is strong. His eyebrows go up to that request for approval and he spits out his answer. And it just, it's delivered too smoothly, I think, to not have been rehearsed. He says, why didn't you use the front door again? And he said, let's talk about the, I've come up with a list of eight things and cues that we see in that. And when you watch this again, be sure to look for these. The first one is before, during, and after. The word be cause, we see three micro expressions of anger before it, during it, and after it. And so you can all see it in here. And his bottom chin and his teeth and his eyes squinting right there is obicularis oculi, that's what we call those. So that little group of muscles right there that push up when you get mad. The second one is during the part where he says, gets to get someone away from you, we see contempt at that point. And then a quick single shoulder pop that just indicates that he's not sure about his answer. That he might be getting a little bit if you, for it, even though he's been prepared for it. He's really not sure because he knows it's, it's, that he's prepared for that answer. And the answer he wanted to give is not, it's not the same one. That's all I'll say at that point. Then we see number five is the mouth push. And that's when he's stalling for time. So that didn't, we see his mouth go like that. It's your combination of anger and not discussed and not contempt. It's just like a little mish-mush of stuff in there. But I don't want to say it's purse lips, but it's, it's an anger expression there. And on the word get, we see a micro expression of anger there. And number seven is when he says, altercation instead of fight. Like Greg was saying, he's using words police use. He's using, we see him start. So he's been told to say this or been given that phrase or he's spent, he's had this happen before as he's talked about it. Cause he's heard people using these words. So he's heard people at police officers or someone in charge using those words. And then on person, we see when he says person, we see a micro expression of anger. So how far is it between the balcony, the balcony in the door, in the balcony door, Yenis Gaten speeds up. And he says it was a logical option at the time and shakes his head, no, the rest of the rest of that answer. This, this just sounds prepared. It just sounds like something just shot out real quick. Mark, what do you got? Yeah. So if you want to go back and listen to that one again, listen to the cadence in those screams by cadence here. I mean the interval between notes, not the, not the speed. Cadence can mean both things, both speed and interval of notes. So look at the cadence. The cadence is a primal cadence. That's why it's so harrowing to hear because the primal cadence is playing over and over again. It's the primal cadence of fear. It's the primal cadence you get when somebody is cornered. So this is somebody trapped. And in fear, if you were making a horror film, you would, if you've got a piano at home like Scott Scott, okay, at the moment, listen to that and look at what the interval is and then go and play some really good horror music and work out that it's the same cadence that the writer will be using in order to instill that idea of fear. So it's harrowing that primal cadence is really hard to hit and make up yourself. That's why some of those Hollywood screams are just terrible. They're no good because the person didn't hit the primal cadence because it's, because here's the important thing. We're not designed to really make that sound unless there's real threat because we have a system as primates called cheap signals. And if you make those kind of signals and the situation is not real, then you get disdain and disgust from your group members. So we never make that kind of sound unless something is really going on. I heard that sound just not in my back garden but in the garden behind it a few months back. There was something going on back there and it was okay for a while. And I was sitting out the back with Tracy and we were like, should we do anything about it? No, it's okay at the moment, it's nothing going on. And then it hit that primal cadence and I was like, okay, you call the police, I'm going round, this has to stop right now. So you know when this is happening. So tune into that sound. Look, focused eye contact. Again, just as you said there Greg, bitterness I think in the side of the mouth there. Deescalate an altercation. That's something that the police say or a lawyer says. So that's kind of prepared statement. Logical option, equations. So he's citing logic, he's citing mathematics right now. He's really selling the idea of him having a super logical argument right now for what clearly we heard to be real fear from a real person. Doesn't make sense. The two things don't match for me. Chase, what do you got on this one? I think he locked her on the balcony as a punishment. You know why I think that? Cause that's what he says in the recording. He literally says, because you've done this and I would let you go home, but you have been a bad girl, which is just disgusting to hear on its own anyway. I think it's obvious that he's performing for the recording on the phone. So he's hyper aware of this thing in his pocket. And he starts saying, why are you attacking me? It's saying this for the recording because he starts talking about it right after that. And when he said, he's correcting the question by, oh, when I disarmed her, as if that was some big piece of ammunition that he had. And, but he says, I disarmed her uses his own language. He says, I, and he says, I tried to get her out of the front door. And then there's some contempt on his face. And then it's only a question you can ask in hindsight. When you have to get someone to stay away from you, separated the two of you, the equation is how he refers to this thing. So it's an equation, not a fight or anything else. Then he calls it an altercation after that. Then he says, that person, a balcony, not his balcony, their death, not her death. Then he says, it was the logical option at the time. There's no specifics whatsoever. This is what we call dissociative language or distancing language. And I'm convinced this was an absolute deliberate attempt to lock her outside and not get rid of her at all because he says it on the recording. And I don't know how that was missed on the interview. Like, why didn't that come back up? That should have been a vital thing. But then no specifics whatsoever. And then this distancing language and everything else that everyone else here has already talked about, this is a volcano of deceptive behavior here. And if I saw similar behavior in someone in front of me, I would assume that they were being deceptive. And I won't say anything about this person. I wasn't in the room. But these behaviors alone point to or suggest deception. That's all I got. It's funny, there's no emotion about this person and none, only when he's on his heels. We heard Warina scream no 33 times and she was begging to go home. Why didn't you just use the front door? You mean after I disarmed her? Whenever. You had multiple opportunities. Well, the first thing I did was try to make her walk out the front door. But you restrained her again? After she took the clamp. For the second time, you had control of her and you still chose not to use the front door. Why didn't you just use the front door? Because that's only a question that you can ask in hindsight when you have to desperately get someone away from you and separate the two of you and try and de-escalate an altercation. It doesn't come into the equation that that person is going to climb off a balcony and fall 14 floors to the death. But Gable, regardless, you had control of her. You were six foot three. She was five foot four. How far is it between the front door and the balcony door? It's a lot closer to the balcony door and it was wide open and it was the logical option at the time. Did you hear her scream? I didn't hear it with my own ears, no. I only realised that there was a faint scream that my phone audio picked up. But your phone recorded that scream. We can hear that scream through the locked balcony door. Yeah. But you reckon you didn't hear it? Not at the time, no. Are you serious? Yeah. No, all I saw was her on the other side of the rail for a fleeting moment and then she was gone. All right, Chase, what do you got? I want to know whose ears he heard it through if it wasn't his own. Not through my own ears. This is a funny way to hear that. He says there was a faint scream, not she screamed. This is a big deal. And if you're a writer or you're ever wanting to be a writer, this is called showing versus telling. So instead of like, we take all of those words like she realised there was no one else in the room, we just take off that she realised part. There was no one else in the room. It sounds more factual and that's when we're telling the truth and especially when we're telling it from first person, from our perspective, we don't use the word realised, understood, discovered, found out, all of those words. So we see that here. And I think it's just a partial red flag. Let's see if we can pile up anymore. Then she was gone. It's just she was gone, not she fell. So he saw her on the balcony and then she was gone. And I think on here, I want to touch on, I think this is the best micro confirmation glance I've ever seen right at the end. He finishes kind of what I believe is probably deceptive statement and then squints to see if the interviewer bought it. But I think if he saw her out on this rail, she didn't disappear. She would have had to go somewhere, not just she was gone. So there's no use of her name ever throughout this thing. I don't think he says her name one time. The blink rate, which suggests that a person is distancing from guilt and distancing from that person. And the blink rate is nearly zero again, which suggests a tremendous amount of focus. And the two things we focus on most are things that are threatening and things that are valuable. And I think this is the threatening scenario. Greg, what do you got? We starts off, he's asked a direct, all the leading question, did you hear? Well, let me give you a point, a free point. If you're ever asked, did you in an interrogation say yes or no? That means you're not divulging any other information. You're also not distancing when you get there. He distances, I did not hear it with my own ears, but he saw it. He saw her standing outside the balcony for a fleeting second or whatever words he used. As soon as he said, but you heard her through the lock bedroom door or through the lock balcony door on the phone, he eye blocks and he mills his jaw. You see his jaw grinding. That's some of the most emotion you see from him in this entire thing. I don't think the emotions about her, I think the emotions about this isn't going well. That's when he says he's on the other side of the rail for a split second. His brow flashes some concern and then he does another breath reset and he moves his head really rapidly left and right. For me, I see, I don't see any perception of her pain, her suffering, her anything. I see perception of this is not going well for me from perception management point of view. That's it. I'll leave it at that and say, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so what I, not to make light of this, but I kind of will, there's a comedy in the UK. Some of you might know it called Little Britain where Matt Lucas plays a character called Vicky Pollard who's a, yeah, from Bristol. And she equivocates between yes and no all the time when she's put in a corner, when she's been found in a lie, she goes, yeah, but no, but yeah, but no, but yeah, but no, but yeah, but no, but right. That's what he's doing. It's Vicky Pollard trapped, boxed in right now, equivocating between yes and no, extraordinary to hear. Maybe we'll stick a bit of Vicky in this, but we might not, we might not get past copyright if we do, but go and check her out. Yeah, but no, but Scott, what do you got? All right, yeah, that's a good one, man. I love those guys. All right, I think this was his way. I agree with Chase. This was his way of teaching her a lesson, and he says that too, because you've been early when he says you've been a bad girl. That's what he's doing, he's teaching her a lesson and this is all about control for this guy. And the reason he's not blinking that much and we're seeing micro expressions is because this really doesn't bother him. I don't think, I think you can see where this is going. I don't think this, I don't think these things bother him that bad. He doesn't know to look away from this guy. He doesn't know that it's odd to keep staring at somebody and not blinking when you're talking to him. This cat goes forever without blinking. I've never seen, I've never seen anybody we've done so far, except for, what was that girl's name, Elizabeth Holmes. Erin Caffey, Erin Caffey. Yeah, and Caffey didn't blink home a whole lot either, but Elizabeth Holmes is like the queen of that. This guy, man, he's, when it comes voting time, he's gonna be the king of it, of low blink rate. And he didn't hear the scream. Now, granted, it may have been, he may have had an adrenaline shot in there, rush and not being able to hear very well. When something happens like that a lot of the time, people say, I couldn't hear anything. It's because you're adrenaline, but in his case, I don't think he may have, I don't know, he may have liked it and got an adrenaline rush out of that, but he may not have heard her because he may not have been looking, may been doing something else. We don't know exactly what he was doing, but I agree with you, Chase, he's aware there's a recording there, that's being recorded. I'll leave it there and we'll move on. Did you hear her scream? I didn't hear it with my ears, no. I only realized that there was a faint scream that my phone audio picked up. But your phone recorded that scream. We can hear that scream. Yeah. Through the locked balcony door. Yeah. But you reckon you didn't hear it? Not at the time, no. Are you serious? Yeah. No, all I saw was her on the other side of the rail for a fleeting moment and then she was gone. So why didn't you go out on the balcony to check to see if she was okay? Instinctively, I knew that if I ran out there and somebody saw me looking over the edge and she had actually fallen all the way, it would look like, you know, it would not look good. It would look like I had forced her over or something. So you were worried about what it would look like for you? Of course I was worried about her. I was absolutely terrified at what had just happened to her but, you know. You just told me that you were a kind and caring guy. Yeah, absolutely and I'm honest. You couldn't even be bothered to go out on the balcony and look over the side and see what had happened to her. Well, whatever had happened out there had happened and looking over the edge, you know, that it doesn't help anybody. There's no purpose to it. Wait, you kidding? Well, no, I mean... There's no purpose to looking over the edge. What, to see if she's alive? To see if she's okay? Yeah, because that's just, you know, knee-jerk curiosity and, like I said, I was deeply concerned by what had happened to her. You were so deeply concerned, Gable, that from her death scream to the next event, which was you calling your lawyer, was 35 seconds. I froze on the spot and I thought, I need to do whatever is the most rational thing to do at the moment. I need advice. All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, so my favorite thing in this entire piece is when he says going and seeing that would be like a knee-jerk. I was thinking it would be like watching a train wreck, kind of like this, watching your interview. This is a train wreck. He has no idea it's a train wreck. But as he's walking through this, his face shows a little bit of shock or terror or something as his brow rises in kind of a quick, we haven't seen it yet, as his brow rises quickly when this guy starts to poke on him and say, what a normal human would do is this. He also pulls the sides of his mouth down. When he's asking him, you went and did this, he said, oh yes, I was worried about her too and there's a little grimace to his face there. I think he, again, I think this is a perception management exercise. And I think he's perceiving that this guy is on, no longer on this side. I wonder why he came to do this interview. You just have to ask yourself, you've gotten acquitted for murder and that's probably because they charged incorrectly would be my guess. Because Scott, whether it's kidnapping or false imprisonment, you certainly could have gotten him on one of those, leading to someone and, and, and. And then he, he says he's, how would it look? And he avoids at all costs. It would look like I threw her over the rail or that. Even when he's finally forced into a corner and has to say the words, he uses some other words like I forced her over the rail. He's a different set of words. He's avoiding anything that's, and this sounds like coaching, whether it was the turning or somebody else did it, but he's avoided words like fight, like kill, like throw over those distancing words. You always, always, always look guilty when you use those kinds of words. He said, I froze on the spot. I think he's surprised that this interviewer is actually onto him this hard. I just am surprised he came for this interview. Chase, what do you got? He says the word instinctively and goes through this rational thing, but wait, he's supposed to be drunk and he's supposed to be confused, which he's going to tell you in the next video. And there's no concern for any other human than himself as far as everything's being worded and being talked about here. And he says he was terrified at what had just happened to her. Not concerned, terrified. And we're only fearful if something's going to happen to us or maybe a very close family member, but there's a smile micro expression here, right at when the interviewer says, well, you said you were a kind and caring guy. You could see a tiny little smile on the face there. And I think that is chilling. And whatever had happened, he's still unwilling to discuss the tragedy completely and there's no emotion, there's no remorse, there's no feeling, guilt, shame, regret, any of the decisions here. And he says there's no purpose to going and look over. And I think he just exposed the single scariest thing that you might see here on the entire behavior panel channel. He wanted to look at the only reason that he would have wanted to look is curiosity and it's his own words. And then all of a sudden he becomes rational while drunk. He's telling us the whole thing was calculated and rational. If the death didn't make him emotional, but more rational, so the death made him rational, the entire night must have been a calculated series of decisions because he must have been rational the whole time. I think this is a really chilling and unusual video here. Scott, what did you see? Well, for me, this is gonna be one of the oddest things you've heard on our channel as well. I really like cat videos. I really like TikTok chicken videos. I don't know if you ever watched those. This guy looks just like one of those chicken TikTok videos. Watch him, his body moves with his head stays in the same place. You know when people pick up a chicken and they start doing that with it and the head stays in the same place. I've never seen one of those. Oh, you gotta get on there. Have you ever seen that dog riding a chicken? Little puppy? No. Dudes. Dude, somebody's got time on his hands. No, I was laying there and I looked at that going, oh my God, the reason that all these answers sound weird and he's phrasing these things oddly and the reason that he says there's a curiosity, let's say it, I'll say it for you, Chase, I don't know where to try to outlast who's gonna say it first. This guy's a psychopath, you know? There's no two ways about it, in my opinion. None of this, this doesn't bother him. It really doesn't bother him. He's trying to use the phrases he sort of the people use or been told to use that will say this bothered, they may not have said, dude, you're a psychopath, you're a megalodeon, don't function properly so you have to speak like this. He doesn't know what those expressions are. He doesn't know how to say what he's seeing or what he's supposed to be feeling at that time. That's why it sounds so odd and that's why it's so weird and that's why it looks like a chicken, like a TikTok chicken because it's just, everything he's doing is weird, is odd for a normal person. He's not a normal person, in my opinion. I could be wrong, I don't know, but I don't think he's normal. I don't think his brain's normal so that's what we're seeing and that's why it's so odd and strange. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, I've got much to add on that. Just a reiteration, I think it's odd that he uses the idea of terrified. It's one of the first emotions that we've had him talk about and yet, I don't see it enough in the face so the two things don't latch up particularly well. There's some elements, but it's not bold enough so that concerns me. I'm interested that when the interviewer is getting a bit more aggressive now and cornering him even more, you see him kind of straighten up so you see his aggression start to peak but when he gets him in a corner, when he really corners him, the face goes waxy, just expression drops and we get this little smile from him which, I mean, it's hard to make head or tail of that but the way I go with it is he's quite delighted about how he's in a corner right now. He's quite fascinated and potentially curious about how he's ended up in this situation. It's certainly an odd emotion to come over him that everything drops away and there's just a smile there. You know, again, you've said it before but it's a great reframe of concern. I didn't want to be concerned because that would look like knee jerk curiosity, just knee jerk curiosity. Well, yeah, that's kind of a Rorschach test for him. There probably was, potentially, just some curiosity in what the outcome might look like and actually to that effect after this, in the documentary, which go away and watch that if you want to, we'll put the link down below but there's a little piece after this piece where you see him on camera, go down to take a look and what's happened outside the front foyer of his condo building. I've seen a lot of drunk people in my life and they don't walk so much like he walks. He's pretty well sobered up at this point. They don't check round corners. They don't check, is anybody watching me? They just kind of stumble around. They're not able to go directly to where they want to go to. They kind of veer off in all kinds of directions. Their center of gravity is all off. He doesn't have any of that about him. So there are some massive discrepancies in what he says his demeanor is or his state is and then how his behavior plays out on camera. And I will go and look for those chickens, Scott. Please do. I got a feeling chicken will come up in a story in a minute. So one thing he does that's normal, human normal, is when he says you say you're a good person, he does that posture bump and sets up. I think he thinks the guy's going to say something good and then he hammers him. Yeah, otherwise I'm with you guys. This guy's. Say it, say it. I'm actually going to agree with you today. Probably say it. All right. Chase, you're being real quiet. What's up, buddy? I could bath. There it is. I'm waiting for the sweet and sour chicken who moves. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I see where you're going. I see where you're going with this one. So why didn't you go out on the balcony to check to see if she was OK? Instinctively, I knew that if I ran out there and somebody saw me looking over the edge and she had actually fallen all the way, it would look like, you know, it would not look good. It would look like I had forced her over or something. So you were worried about what it would look like for you? Of course I was worried about her. I was absolutely terrified at what had just happened to her, but, you know... You just told me that you were a kind and caring guy. Yeah, absolutely. You couldn't even be bothered to go out on the balcony and look over the side and see what had happened to her. Well, whatever had happened out there had happened, and looking over the edge, you know, it doesn't help anybody. There's no purpose to it. Wait, you kidding? Well, no, I mean... There's no purpose to looking over the edge. What, to see if she's alive? To see if she's OK? No, no, because that's just, you know, knee-jerk curiosity, and like I said, I was deeply concerned by what had happened to her. You were so deeply concerned, Gable, that from her death scream to the next event, which was you calling your lawyer, was 35 seconds. I froze on the spot and I thought, I need to do whatever is the most rational thing to do at the moment. I needed advice. By the time I ate, I had been wandering around the streets, confused, extremely drunk and in shock, and I needed to clear my head and sober up. And so I found a place that had some food. Warina Wright's body is on the pavement. You don't even know if she's still breathing, and you are happily munching away on a slice of super-supreme. There's nothing happy or casual or indulgent about it. That was, that night, that was the most scared I've ever been. It's the most distraught I've ever been in my entire life. Can you understand why many people would think you're a cold, heartless, cruel bastard? When you put it that way, when that's all you say about a person with no insight or explanation, you know, the media can make people think what the media wants people to think. All right, Mike, what do you got? Yeah, so, well, I mean, you know, obviously it's extraordinary that he goes and has some food, but he's got a rationale around that. I like the aggressive chin-juts that we now start to see from him because he's, I think, ramping up his a level of aggression around this. And there is almost no reaction to heartless, cruel, and that other word that I will not say, because it sounds too good in Australian, and it'll be demeaned by the English pronunciation of it. No great reaction to that. Apart from what I think is just kind of a dismissive tilt of the head just to kind of let that water just run off him. It makes no difference to him, just a dismissive tilt of the head on that. It's extraordinary how he doesn't really seem to react in any great way to some quite aggressive character assassination from the interviewer here. And, you know, the Aussies can be pretty harsh, you know, even for the English, when an Aussie goes at you, it's like, well, man, that was a bit much, mate. That was a bit extreme. You know, I don't think we're having, you know, they will come at you just as a joke, just for fun. They'll take you down. So, and he's coming at him pretty hard here. It's water off a duck's back to this guy, extraordinary. Chase, what do you got on this one? I did not enjoy that pizza at all. There was no enjoyment in that pizza. It's kind of what the overall message here is. I think he forgot how rational he was. And now he's extremely drunk and confused. Those are the words I've heard here. And there's a contempt at just the phrase sober up. You can see the contempt on his face. And when he said I was scared and distraught, I think that's honest. And none of those things have anything to do with the victim here, the person who perished here. And there's an immediate facial expression of disgust that you can see here right when heartless bastard is brought up. This guy says heartless bastard and there's disgust on his face. You can see it like the kind of the nose goes up. But if you imagine sticking your nose inside a rotten jug of milk, everything kind of goes towards the middle. You can see it marks even doing it here. So that proves Mark has more empathy than Scott and Greg. And there's an angry expression here and target fixation. I want you to watch towards the end of this video, the chin comes down a little bit and there is anger and then target fixation on the interviewer because he is in a corner now and he is just, this is his way out is making that person into a target. And that's what we're seeing. It's pretty clinical, pretty cold, pretty calculating. And to use the interviewer's words, pretty heartless. Greg heartless. What do you have? That was actually my nickname once upon a time, believe it or not. I have no doubt. Believe it. So I'm often reminded, I think I told you Scott this story. I worked for a guy many, many years ago who got drunk, drove and hit an MP at the checkpoint going into post and they put him in there, didn't seriously, I mean, didn't kill the guy but injured him and he told me that he ate coffee grounds to try to sober up because in his irrational mind, food was what would solve his problem. So I'm so drunk that I get it. I get people do that kind of thing but I also saw that grimace as you put it that discussed that focus on the interviewer when the interviewer starts to call him names and call him a heartless bastard and, and, and, and, and. It's all about him. He says, I was, I was terrified. It was the worst moment of my life. It's all I, I, I until the guy says and you didn't do this, this or this. Then he turns it, well, when you put it that way, you can make anyone, not you can make me, it goes off me, you know, now it's about someone else. He's gonna, now he's gonna make it a crowd, he's gonna crowd source this guilt so that they have to make it about that person being guilty. I think what we're seeing here now, this guy might like sweet and sour chicken. I'm starting to think because this guy, and you rarely hear me say this, this guy's not flat by most of this negative, negative stuff, the things that he recognizes are assaults on him, he gets, and you see some internalization of that process. I believe it's once the university did studies recently and we can put that down below that psychopaths, pupils don't dilate during negative emotions. When they're seeing negative input, their pupils don't dilate. Watch this guy's eyes, like I said earlier. Just keep, pay attention to this guy's eyes. This guy's not operating on the same frequency you are. I don't, not saying he's a psychopath, don't know for sure, but what I'll tell you is this is one of the first I've seen that I think this guy didn't feel what's going on. I don't think he feels any of this. Now, whether he's done something to come here, prepared for it, some kind of a drug, you could say that, whether it's Australian culture that makes his face so stoic, maybe that's part of it, but all these things together start making me think, he might like sweet and sour chicken. Scott, what do you got? Yeah, I agree with you. I'm just gonna say one thing here because I want it to stand out. After he calls him heartless bastard and then he says, well, when you put it that way, he smiles. That's all, it's not really a micro expression of smile. It's there for a couple of seconds. So get a look at that. We're getting ready to roll through this again. When he says that, just watch his little smile there, right when he says that, you go, oh my God, there it is. That stuck out to me and that's, I'm gonna leave it right there so I make a bigger deal about it. And do you think she was so frightened when you put her out in that balcony? But that's why she attempted to climb down. There was no threat to her. She was out there on her own. I was inside on my own. That's one of the most perplexing things to me. I can't understand what would drive a person to climb a 14-floor balcony into nothingness. She may have thought genuinely to herself that she just had to escape. Again, I can't speculate. I didn't know what was running through her mind and I didn't do anything to make her fear for her life. Well, you'd restrained her, Gable, thrown her out there. I mean, you can hear her breathing. It's choking. You just don't understand. Let go. Certainly wasn't choking. I didn't choke her at any point. I didn't harm her physically at any point. That was proven in court by the pathologist. There were no signs of choking. There were no signs of any physical harm on her. Come on, get up, get up, get up. All right, Greg, what do you got? So, when he asks, do you think, he says a couple of meaningful things. I can't understand. I believe that. When he says I couldn't put his mind around, I can't feel what she felt, that I think is honest. I think this guy has no clue that he just put this young woman out on the balcony. She feels threatened because of all the wrestling and choking and whatever else is going on, whatever he says is going on. Restricted airway. Let's not call it choking. Let's call it restricted airway. You can hear her breathing. And he just can't put himself in there. He lists these facts from his point of view. I was inside. There was no threat. She was alone. Those are him stating facts, not thinking about how she felt. And you see his clenched jaw. He does a lip compression that I can't understand. That's withholding facts. And maybe he realizes he can't understand. He can't feel what other people feel. And then his eyes narrow and he shows his lower teeth when he said I didn't do anything. That's anger. As by anybody's standards, that's anger. Might not be as expressive as you might see in somebody who's enraged, but it's surely there. I think we're seeing here now. This is why I think if you can't feel what somebody feels and you get angry about the whole situation and where you're at, you might be right. Chase, you said it first. This guy might be a psychopath. I'll leave it at that and go, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, I agree. So I'm seeing top lip tightening as well around anger as well. But it's tiny, it's tiny, tiny, tiny. So you got to go in there and you got to slow the thing down and you got to look for changes as always. We're looking for changes from the baseline, but it is because his baseline is so deadpan. It's enough of a change though subtle that you go, oh, there's some anger there. So I agree with that. I also think we see some disdain as well. That's where one corner is gonna turn up slightly as well. I see an edge of that as well. Yeah, I can't understand what would drive a person. That area there, I see him, as you say, Greg, try and access some kind of reasoning and then an eye block on that, which to your point, is that shame around not being able to tell what somebody's thinking and feeling, which is ultimately one of the elements of psychopathy is just not being able to understand, not having the right neural capacity to be able, architecture to be able to mirror people enough to understand feelings and emotions could be that or could be an eye block that he does understand. And he does, he can work out some reasoning because he was there and it would be reasonable that she was in fear of her life and may well have climbed over a balcony because it seemed a better option and fell. Who knows, we weren't there, so we don't quite know. But certainly there is a lot going on there in a subtle, subtle way. Chase, what do you got on this one? Well, there's no answer to the question. The interviewer asked a question and there's a non-answer statement that comes out for that. And he continues this dissociative language where the person who was killed becomes a person, just a person. And I thought the other thing in the last video was scary and I think this is worse because he's literally exposing to us how he views what happens to people when they die and what happened to this victim. And maybe his problem, like he sees her as a problem that she just goes away or just disappears. And that's how he describes what happened to her. I think that's kind of bone chilling. And one more thing, when the interviewer uses the words she just had to escape, you'll see him show his thanks. You'll see him expose these teeth here, which we do when we're very angry or in some kind of attack mode where she wanted to escape. I think that is very scary. And he says, again, I can't speculate. And this is just rehearsed stuff from probably from the courtroom. But anger forming on the face when he sang, I didn't know what was running through her mind. I fully agree that it was truthful. And he has contempt when he's using physical harm on her. Physical harm on her. You can see this contempt form on his face as he's talking. This whole video is a little scary to me. So if I was interviewing a person like this, I would, A, I wouldn't hire them and I would probably not spend time with these people. So a little scary. Scott. All right. Yeah, I agree with all you guys. And I think it's a big deal here because his cadence slows down. He gets a lot quieter. His voice almost goes to that crackly. What do they call that? When people talk that way, they have to crack. Vocal fry. Vocal fry. That's almost a vocal fry there. And his volume's lower. And he says there was no threat to her as she was out there on her own like she wanted to be out there. And he was in here. Well, he was in here on his own, you know? And he's the guy that put her out there. I did just, and then he says, I can't, there's a pause and understand. And it looks down and we see that stress mouth. His mouth closed very quickly and then back open. The head nod and then another pause. And these are all cues of stress, understandably because of the situation he's in. However, psychopaths don't get stressed. You know, their stress level is very low. So this might be some kind of an act he's putting on if he is a psychopath, which he may not be. So it could be an act, who knows. And the rest of the answer is you can see his jaws clench here. You can see those things, the little muscles on the side of his face popping out, there's his clenching his jaws. These are all cues of anger. You guys pretty much covered everything. I'm not gonna start repeating. And do you think she was so frightened when you put her out in that balcony? But that's why she attempted to climb down. There was no threat to her. She was out there on her own. I was inside on my own. That's one of the most perplexing things to me. I can't understand what would drive a person to climb off a 14-floor balcony into nothingness. She may have thought genuinely to herself that she just had to escape. Again, I can't speculate. I didn't know what was running through her mind. And I didn't do anything to make her fear for her life. Well, you'd restrained her, Gable. You'd thrown her out there. I mean, you can hear her breathing. I think it's choking. You just don't understand. Let go. Certainly wasn't choking. I didn't choke her at any point. I didn't harm her physically at any point. That was proven in court by the pathologist. There were no signs of choking. There were no signs of any physical harm on her. Come on, get up. Get up. Get up. Let's tell what we think is going on here and then we'll go Mark, then Chase, then Greg, and then I'll wrap it up. Mark? Yeah, so it is extraordinarily cold just as the interviewer says. Is it extraordinarily cold because he's been through this story time, after time, after time? You know, he has distance himself from it at this point. Here's what gets me is that that moment of primal cadence screaming, we do see some effect on him, but not a great deal. And just think for you listening to that, what effect did it have on you? Maybe play it again and watch your face while that happens and see what happens. And do you see any of that in him? If you see any of it, it is so, so subtle. So has he been desensitized to it at this point? I mean, look, if we critically think about it, there's a whole bunch of options, but if we put it together with all the other information, maybe we land on a specific psychology, neural type, regardless of if he's been acquitted or not. Terrible, terrible event. Chase, what do you think? I think he did mean to teach her a lesson, which he actually says. And the behavior or behavior like this would suggest that whether the lesson ended like it did or not was not that big of a deal. Greg? Thank you, Wright. I think his intent was to teach her a lesson. You've been a bad girl, control words. You heard those words, locked her out. Whether he understood she would crawl over the ledge and she was too inebriated to have a logical, don't know, that's probably part of the whole murder trial issue. But what I did see here is the only time I saw any feelings were when they were impacting him. For example, all the crying and that kind of thing. And a guy sitting looking at you, of course you're gonna feel something. Didn't hear a lot of feeling words about her. I didn't see any warmth whatsoever. And I realized it's a tender hookup is all it was. But it's still, this is a human being. This is another person. So there you got it. Scott? Yeah, I think he, I agree with all you guys. And I think he put her out there as a punishment or whatever. But I think she was so scared. And then again, she was so lit up as well. She's trying to get away from him. She thinks he's gonna kill her. Or she thinks she isn't gonna get away because she may not have told anybody. She was gonna go meet this guy. She may not have said, hey, look, I'm going here, is where I'm gonna be. And if I don't come back home, here's what, you know, then come look at this guy's place. She was probably scared to death. I think she tried to get away and then just fell off the balcony. I don't think he pushed her. I don't think he intended to murder or anything. But I don't think, better watch my mouth there. But I don't think he intended for her to die at that point. But he sure shows a lot of the hallmarks of psychopathy. But he may not be one. You know, he sure shows a lot of the hallmarks for it. All right, well, if you like what we're doing, please subscribe. 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