 Okay, we're back. We're live with one of my favorite people ever Claire Hannes. She's an immigration attorney And she is with aloha immigration. She's the owner and Principal person there She does immigration law in Hawaii She won an award from us a couple years ago as I recall for being courageous and stalwart and and so principled and Developing immigration policy that works for this country And I'd like to catch up with her today. Hi. Thank you Jay. Hi. It's really good to be back Yeah, so let's talk about you know where it is because you know We've had various reports from the administration who we have come not to believe in pretty much anything But they're telling us about the border They're telling us about the invasion and the caravans and we see pictures of these really pathetic people Being forced into horrible situations and we don't know what the government is really doing What is the government really doing over there? Yeah, you know, I wonder what the government's really doing to and really rely on reports of Advocates and allies who are down on the border kind of you know living this and seeing this real time There was a situation a couple weeks ago where they had people sleeping on gravel under bridges Now they're setting up more tent cities a lot of these Facilities are very difficult to get into I've heard reports from attorneys who are volunteering in these facilities that the rules and restrictions that they're under are Other than say anti-human. I don't know how to do they're not allowed to hug their clients They're not allowed to show any kind of physical Affection and these are people, you know women and children who are in you know most need of a hug and some Reason for that rule. No. No, I mean people are it's just me People are thoroughly searched before going into these facilities. So it's not as a lawyer So it's not as though they're passing off contraband to there It's it's it's to just make things as difficult and hellish for people as possible It sounds like Guantanamo actually Yeah Different it's similar and different right and cities in human conditions Around them, you know, it's a prison, right? It is it is a prison and And then at the same time the Trump administration cutting off aid policies that are at least Attempting arguably to make conditions in those countries where people and hopefully stay and they've been I've read reports that in El Salvador where there was you know money through the Agency for international development There have been some some positive developments that have made communities more safer so that people don't feel like they have to flee But now he's talking about well He's you know, we're cutting off all of that all of that funding and then wondering why people still come I mean, it's so I have words for it But build a better backyard the organization of American states. We haven't paid attention to it We haven't done anything to make this a better We have we have created the crisis and we are exacerbating it every day Yeah, and then and then dehumanizing because of race and class Biasis people who are trying to to save their families But on the other hand, you can't let everybody come in you have to have some rules, right? And of course the immigration law has not been reformed for a long time every form goes both ways You know you make it more moral, but you also make it more enforceable and and then you have a real policy Europe failed to have those policies and Europe is you know is besieged with people coming from all directions and creating problems The I guess he's worried or maybe his base is worried the same thing will happen here Seems to me the solution is legislation where Congress actually does something to create better immigration laws immigration laws that are more moral more enforceable Of course the problem is this president doesn't follow the law whatever the law is right. He told the HH the Homeland Security Kevin McKeen McKenon McEleanan right he told them look don't follow the law right. I'm the president I'm telling you don't follow the law do what I say and if you get prosecuted I will give you a pardon to me that is impeachable right on its face And those laws that he's talking about our international law their domestic law regarding the rights of refugees and asylum seekers These are not laws that we can just kind of willingly change anyway We have international obligations that we have We haven't always upheld, but the laws have always been on the books and so And what a lot of people don't a lot of people think that the laws have changed a lot under Trump Actually in the immigration area the laws, you know Congress makes a lot of people need to be reminded right Congress makes the laws The laws haven't changed what have changed are the policies and the regulations or the Trump administration has attempted to change the policies and regulations that that government how those laws are enforced For example the latest thing that yeah, I woke up this morning and read on my newsfeed is that And this is the from the office of the press secretary of the White House Additional measures to enhance border security and restore integrity to our immigration system sounds great Okay, one of the things in here is to now start charging Setting a fee for an asylum application. So I mean how many more times can you whack these people? Who are already down and and beat them further Anybody just mean it's just it's me and it's just going to create another layer of I mean It's it's we're fighting brush fires every day and I feel like it's it's it's a strategy to have us continue fighting brush Fires so that we get exhausted and either stop paying attention or just give up and and walk away But the people who are committing to fighting this causes the individuals and the nonprofits You know, we're not going away. We're going to continue to we're not we're going to continue to fight them on a national level we're going to continue to fight them on a local level and Yeah, we're tired But we're also angry and we have a lot of people who are depending on us whose situations are far worse than ours Depending on us to keep up this fight Well, one of the things we talk about here on think tech is if you know if you have a problem with what this administration is doing You should actually determine a course of action for yourself whether it's giving money whether it's doing a phone bank You know to voters in in Ohio Or in this case it raises the question about whether a lawyer who cares a lot about this would actually go to the border and Represent people in those in those prisons Is that what people are doing? How do you feel about that is what people are doing and it's it's That's an area where I personally have not been able to step up and go down to the border and help But it's it's an area that I've talked to other folks about trying to organize a Hawaii delegation And going down and there are basically shifts of so there are attorneys who are full-time there on the ground working with non-profit organizations, but then they rely heavily on Rotating teams or shifts of attorneys to come in for a week or two and And and take over bond hearings interviewing individuals and Hawaii actually has through the law school there were two people from Hawaii who have gone to the border from two attorneys and Then they came back and shared what they saw and I think that's great I think we need to have a much larger presence because We are in a way in a glorious little bubble here in Hawaii where we do have a handful of asylum seekers who have We've crossed the border and then released to family members in Hawaii But our communities, you know people from Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, Nicaragua are very small here So again, we've we've not had to we haven't had these issues really Confront us in a significant way, but it doesn't mean that it's not happening It doesn't mean that we don't have a responsibility And we should care about it and that and that there's nothing that we can do and yet It's a little bit more effort for some of us here to get to the border to do that But but there's support on the ground for that along the Texas Arizona California border and there are people here who who really want to help who would either go or Would financially support maybe law students or other people to go and I've gotten calls from many people who just say I'm outraged at what's happening who I want to send some money to a group along the border And so I've I've channeled some of that to organizations I know who are doing really good at work there. It's a global travesty what's happening in it You know, I feel so strongly about it You know the words on the Statue of Liberty the Emma Lazarus. Yes. Yeah, we've come a long way from those words You know, we've also seen changes in Policies Locally in different ways as well too were people who new immigrants or intending immigrants have been really impacted and that's primarily I've seen in the delays of adjudications of Visa processing overseas so family members are separated longer also the the the lengthy delays in local processing with With USCIS you United States citizenship and immigration services And that's the agency under the Department of Homeland Security that That adjudicates naturalization green cards especially and also Immigrant petitions so if if you're filing a petition for a family a close family member So where it used to be for example J Applying for a green card for a husband or wife here in the United States in Hawaii would take about three months Start to finish now. That's closer to 10 to 11 months Where naturalization used to be about three months now is closer to nine to 11 months as well and you're telling me that these these hearings and Sanctuary and you know the people coming across the border seeking sanctuary now these hearings and Kevin McClain He made a good statement on behalf of Trump on 60 minutes This weekend, you know He had us all believing that they come across That they are incarcerated until they're court processed and then they go out into the into the community without any real control And they got to come back for a hearing But what I didn't know is the results of these hearings are what mostly rejection anyway Yeah, I mean is it so you know that first of all the majority of people who are released either on their own Recognizance or under bonds and sometimes bonds. I have a client here who is Immigration customs enforcement is requiring a bond of twenty five thousand dollars. He's an asylum seeker Okay, twenty five thousand dollars for him to be able to continue fighting his case and Not live in the federal detention center by the airport. So people Homeland security is charging these very high bonds and the majority of people are showing up for their For their their hearings in immigration courts throughout the country But then but then there are some immigration judges and you can go to if you Google TRAC I think it's out of Syracuse University. They Keep track tabulate the approval and denial rates from immigration individual immigration judges across the country and Hawaii's rates are You can look at it and you can see that that they're they're fair There's some approvals some denials, but you can look at say out the El Paso court the Atlanta immigration court is notorious the lumpkin 90 plus percent Case of denial point. That's a charade. That's a kangaroo. It is a kangaroo court where we're real lives I mean people are being in some cases sent back to their deaths or they're continuing to fight these cases But they're an immigration detention long term and it's very difficult to fight a case when you're an immigration Detended and most of these people cannot afford attorneys. There are no eternity There are no attorney. They put these detention centers in very rural difficult to reach places get to them You can't get to them. They have the courts within the detention center and so it's There's there there aren't attorneys to do this kind of work And there's no public defender system or the immigration courts. It's not like a criminal court People are really on on their own and so again, you can you can look You know if you have a strong asylum case that case should be granted But if you present that case in front of a judge in El Paso Your chance is is more likely than then it's going to be denied What's what strikes me is it's mean it's pathological It's intended to place every obstacle possible and love the dice in every way for example He is using military lawyers. He's sort of Diverting military lawyers to serve as I guess immigration judges What's wrong with that picture? They know anything about immigration It's command-influenced. He's telling him what to do and they do it. It's kangaroo court yet again What an abuse of Lawyers in general if you will an immigration law is one of the most complicated areas of law And I'm not just saying that to say yay. I understand most of it But it but that's just people who practice different areas of law will say how Complicated and convoluted immigration laws so to think that you can give someone a short training and make them an immigration judge And that they're going to do something fair It's preposterous So much as preposterous and mean and then you know, but but the immigration judges are different You know, they're they're not like federal judges. They you know, they are under the Department of Justice, so the attorney general, you know was I remember him. Well, yeah Sessions and now what's the space right? Thank you bar you know, they Arguably kind of lackeys for the administration. So the immigration judges those are their bosses so they're under tremendous pressure to move cases through quickly and These are not quick simple cases most of them and so there's people's lives are at stake and so many of them absolutely and so do processed Violations so one thing that you mentioned here. You were reading from this press release It came from none other than the White House and it strikes me that we actually have a Homeland Security Department. We have bought a security sub department within that and so these these communications should be coming from the department in the government, which is you know Interested in the policy and enforcing the policy instead they're coming from him the Trump Right, so it really bothers me that we're getting all this hand me down about all these details that he's creating policy He's crowning his policy on this department every department and he is one mean bugger And so what we see here is the White House controlling everything despite what? Either Kevin McLean and says or anyone else right and just sowing chaos Yeah, right where you know, who knows who knew about this before it was it was handed down Everybody sure scrambling this morning And so again, you know, they've got us, you know kind of running running in circles and again, we've got you know tremendous Advocacy from the ECOU locally and nationally and other organizations that You had last week on your show Marielena From the National Immigration Law Center He penny a copy a copy a yes, I struggled with her last name. I think I've got it now But she was fabulous and again fierce fierce bright Thankfully well-funded. I think advocates all over the country who are You know thanks, you know the generosity of people who think that this is outrageous They want to help in some way so they're they're channeling their resources to these organizations that are fighting these battles and they're winning They are winning but it's you know, but it's just like, you know, there's so many other We have to do I know many of the things we have to do this brush fires everywhere And we're just trying to not get too far behind. Yeah Let's take a short break. I'm getting emotional That's Claire Hennis. She's an immigration attorney here in Hawaii day and it will come back and discuss the larger picture about this and You know the triangle in Central America will discuss what the government could do if it was right thinking that's a hypothetical We'll be right back Aloha, I'm Cynthia Sinclair. I'm Tim Appachella We're hosts here at Think Tech Hawaii a digital media company serving the people of Hawaii We provide a video platform for citizen journalists to raise public awareness Hawaii We're a Hawaii non-profit that depends on the generosity of its supporters to keep on going We'd be grateful if you go to think tech Hawaii comm make a donation to support us now Hey, loha, my name is Andrew Lanning. I'm the host of security matters Hawaii airing every Wednesday here on Think Tech Hawaii live from the studios I'll bring you guests. I'll bring you information About the things in security that matter to keeping you safe your co-workers safe your family safe keep our community safe We want to teach you about those things in our industry that you know may be a little outside of your experience So please join me because security matters. Aloha Okay, we're talking with Claire Hennis. It was a very busy lady as an immigration lawyer these days But busy busy doing the right thing so Trump has a history in immigration may affect his thinking here one is I think he's racist and that affects his thinking for sure Everybody south of the border is somebody on the wrong side of the scale for him white supremacy above all Uber Alice I think is a term But he has his own family history in immigration and not just his wife. Oh the irony is so thick it's just it yeah, right his so his his grandfather you know came from Germany and Established bars and brothers and made a fair bit of money Went back to Germany and got into trouble because he had Not gone into the draft in the years that he you know He was in the United States and so he he missed out in his military service like his And son Donald J right and so those first wasn't it? Yeah, right, right? and so his grandfather was actually Deported from Germany and this was it was published. I think in Harper's magazine this month his grandfather's letter to the government Basically begging to be able to stay with his mother in his home country. It's really Emotional they said uh-uh and they sent him back to the United States and then his legacy is We know right so um I mean and then and then of course his wife and well wives and their immigration histories Through marriage to him and then his wife bringing her parents, which it was a which is a A family-based immigration category that he would like to have cut off for everybody else So my wife was able to petition and bring her parents No, he doesn't know he doesn't want and then and Steve Miller, you know Who's the architect Trump isn't smart enough to be the architect of things like you know these But Steven Miller and and those other folks are and so Yeah, it's well you're talking before the show about how all these things, you know Sort of stain the United States and helping its global decline Morally and otherwise and and the question is whether we can you know fix it up somehow after he's gone Hopefully soon And that includes I say that to include the kind of Terrible trouble he's making for every visitor who comes here every visa every entry into the United States is Met with the similar Rejection kind of you know, don't send me your tired huddled masses don't send me anybody And so this is we're closing the gates. We're going isolationist And it is reflected in the immigration procedure not the law because he can't change the law Congress would never go along with him correct He'd never get it word one on that so he has to do it by by way of twisting You know the interpretation the regulations and violating the law for that matter and telling people they can have Bartons if they join him in the violation right, but but I would like to look look forward look to the end of him Whenever hopefully he ends soon And see how we can fix this up to make immigration law, right? What what do you think we should do about for example? You know the Triangle in Central America. What do you think about reform in general? What do we do? What do you think we do with it with Homeland Security and the Border Patrol? What do we do to make them? Oh Good American caring people well and and there are there are people in border patrol And there are some here in Customs and Border Protection who are good and caring people and not everyone who chooses that profession We have some really awesome ice officers great. So So they're not all you know Stone-hearted. Let's have a big problem under this administration. Yeah I think I think it's really hard for them And I think this this administration has definitely You know probably recruited a lot of people who Have also a very anti-immigrant sentiment and those are you know, so we hear you know lots of cases of violence perpetuated by Customs and Border Protection officials and Border Patrol along the border as far as As far as kind of looking forward and trying to undo some of the damage I think you know a goal really needs to be for not only for humanitarian purposes, but also kind of our own interests working to support Governments in you know from Mexico on down that respect human rights that are our Democratic governments and historically that is not what the United States has done the United States has propped up dictator after dictator because it served US business interests and now it's really the chickens are coming home diverse because those countries are in shambles People can't live there anymore and they're and they're escaping and also in climate change. It's an environmental issue As well as it is in Europe Absolutely, we have climate refugees coming from coming to Hawaii from the Pacific coming to the United States from From Central America too because these you know these crops are are drying up. There are these long droughts people can't Cannot feed their families and they will do what they need to do to get to a place where they where they can do that So, you know, that's a that's a long-term plan, but it needs to start here to start Yesterday, so we've got a lot of catch-up and kind of damage control to do in that area As far as international as far as immigration law, you know, we need to respect the international laws and treaties that we've signed to protect the rights of immigrants and refugees and we need to give people a fair hearing and And if they meet those the standards that have been set under international law They they need to be able to stay in the United States and and have refuge and if they don't then they need to go back and that's It's not complicated, but you know one of the things I mean, I know there are people in this country Maybe, you know his base that don't want anybody they want to close it all down That's that's their view of the 21st century close it all down and forget about, you know, American leadership Losing we're losing it now. I'm sorry to say so what do you say to them about the the need of the United States who have immigrants for labor or You know for moving ahead for the generations yet unborn for making this country may I say great again? In a different context, right, right? Well, I don't think there's any good economic arguments for closed borders I mean we're in a global in a global economy in a global society It's Polly to think that we can close ourselves off and that we can Have a robust economic system. I can't think of any economist who would who would make that argument Additionally I think people need to reflect back on their own immigrant histories and other than the few indigenous people that we have left in the United States everybody has a story and Most of those stories are not people who are coming because they had a lot of money and they just decided to kind of on a whim Fly over or travel first class to the United States and it was so great They decided to stay most of our immigrant histories have to do with people who were fleeing Severe hardship for different reasons and we're coming for a better life That's definitely the story of my great-grandparents It's a story of almost everybody's and people are just so I don't know how In such a short period of time People forget that or just or taught that we need to teach it to our children We need to teach our children that they did not You know that their entitlements are because of sacrifices that people made before them and not that long ago and Try to again, but yeah, how do you you know to to his face? How do you reach them? I don't know Jay I I'm not sure. I'm not sure if they're How reachable they are but we have to keep trying and we have to not close down the the walls of communication And when I meet someone who is a Trump supporter, I don't I don't turn the other way I try to I try to figure out What is it in them that made it that I mean? I am the way I am because of my parents because of my grandparents They are the way they are because of something that shaped them to get to that point and I'm really curious about About what that is. I don't know if I have a whole lot of hope for changing it But I think dialogue and keeping that dialogue open no matter how difficult it is and I might have bubbles over my head saying You know other choice words as I'm listening to them speak But I think it's important to just to engage to try to understand Okay, look it over the horizon. Yes, I'm reminded of I way ways movie called human flow Where he reports to us there are 65 million people now in camps around the world I'm growing all the time and their lives are really awful in those camps. They live they die. They get sick They don't learn anything. They're just behind Bob wire This is a stain on all of humanity that we let this happen But in the future the inexorable Low of humans is going to be reducing borders It's going to be one great big world where people are free to go where they want and we all are Responsible every nation as it exists is responsible for every other nation. We care We should be caring about our fellow human beings wherever they are and making making the world one sharing Planet, I know it's a long way in the future and it seems very long under this demonstration But I think that's inevitable to happen Given our transportation communication You know our ability to connect. Yeah, and we need it We need to bring human rights the the issues of human rights out from like the corner where it's been tucked away For the last well definitely under Trump and Obama due to some extent And and and bring that back out into the foreground and look at countries Look at countries like China countries that are look at countries like the Philippines and what are what are our individual? Responsibilities what can we do for our brothers and sisters who are victims of horrible human rights violations in those countries in in the Americas? in in Mexico In our own country, right? I mean, it's it's not it's not always just someplace else It's here, too and and work together to to revitalize groups like Amnesty International that are educating about international human rights and I'm trying to make people see that on a fundamental level If there is oppression that's done to you if there's an injustice done to you it affects me, too And we're all responsible for that and if we had seen that responsibility in the 30s We would have stopped Hitler and we should see it now We should we should go beyond just serving as counsel for immigrants We should we should do something every day to improve the human flow in the world one thing that Marilena Ecoppie said last week meeting a group of local business leaders is that now is not the time to remain on the sidelines to remain silent if there Was ever a time in in our recent history To to get up and take a stand it is now And and and people silence and people's Complicity is a big part of the problem It's a big part of why a person like Donald Trump feels that he can make these outrageous Policy initiatives every day that are causing real harm and real hardship to our sisters and brothers In a sense we're all immigration lawyers, aren't we? We all need to well we all need to be at we all need to be advocates or or immigrants for or Any any individual or group of people who is suffering right now? There have is one my favorite. Thank you generation lawyer are extraordinary. Thank you so much for coming down. You're my pleasure Aloha, Aloha immigration