 Hello there, it's Thursday at noon. I know it is Do you remember our arrangement Thursdays at noon on CFUV Are you ready to get started? What do you have in mind? What I want to do now is called first-person plural You make it sound excessively attractive That's what I have in mind We chose the title of this show, first-person plural, for two reasons First, we wanted to talk about social issues and social is plural. It involves two or more people Second, we wanted to do a show together as a team In our married life, we have come to recognize that we compliment each other in many ways We enjoy each other's company We don't always see the world the same way, but we respect each other's points of view We are first-person plural So it seems fitting that we celebrate our togetherness on the air As this episode is being initially broadcast on our 10th wedding anniversary October 10th 2002 Because we are who we are, we will begin our celebration with sociologist Connie Sheehan Dr. Sheehan is a family sociologist at the University of Florida who edits the Journal of Family Issues And who has co-authored a textbook, Marriages and Families Reflections of a Gendered Society, which will have a new edition coming out later this year She talks about why a sociological perspective is important If we are to understand the nature of marriages and families and how families interact with the larger society Then we will talk with Gordon and Joyce Cunningham This Victoria couple has been married for 59 years Yes, you heard right next year. They will be celebrating 60 years together and they are still going strong They talk about their life together and share some words of wisdom with a young couple who have only 10 years under their belts Finally, we present an audio album of our wedding We wish we could show you the pictures, but we think sharing some of our memories including poetry and song Will be more entertaining than seeing pictures of people you don't know So we hope you will stay with us throughout the hour as we present our wedding anniversary episode entitled I'd like to start out with a really basic question about Why you do what you do? I think when most people think about Families and think about marriage they think of it as being in the professional domain of either psychology or medicine So why do you think it's important to have a sociologist study this? Well, I think it makes a lot of sense for psychologists and physicians to study family issues But they tend to focus on these as individual centered problems and in sociology We recognize that families are small groups of persons with Dynamics That are affected by any one person's Problems so if a child has a long-term illness that affects the dynamics that go on between the parents Facts the other children and the family so the small group aspect the fact that a family is more than just one individual Is one of the reasons that sociology is valuable for studying families But the other aspect which is something we hear about in the in the news more often is that families are embedded in the societal Context so when things happen in the economy for instance that affects what goes on in families Not only in terms of the very visible effects of Spending money, but it can affect stress levels can affect conflict So sociologists tend to take this broader perspective looking at families as small groups and families as one institution in a larger Society in a larger picture right when you were talking about how society affects families Do you ever study like the ways in which? Families affect society yes many sociologists do study how families affect society in general And that's somewhat of a controversial issue because some policy makers some journalists some Citizens in general think that the problems of society are caused by family changes For instance changing morals and families changing ideas about sexuality might have an impact on the culture So it depends partly on what kind of philosophical perspective you take But one of the things I study is employment in families So it's it's fairly straightforward to think about how families can affect the labor market by preparing Young people who become diligent workers who show up at work on time So yes, you can look at it from both directions Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that politically a lot of you've mentioned policy makers And I think that a lot of political policy makers spend a lot of time talking about how dysfunction in the family leads to problems in society and I think that sociologists that would take a more I want to say holistic that might not be the right word But a more a broader perspective on that that it's that it's more than a one-way street absolutely We often think of Societies as systems just like you would look at a car engine or if you look at the human body It's a it's a complex system that the cause and effect relationships don't go in one direction only as you said So it's really hard to isolate cause and effect Anytime something happens in one part of the engine or one part of the human body It does affect the rest of the body or the rest of the engine and so that is why it's hard to To say cause changes in family cause changes in society or vice versa Another interesting thing that you mentioned that I just want to touch on is you said that some Sociologists kind of look at it in a small group way Where they are actually looking at the interactions of a family in the same way that sociologists study other kinds of groups So there's a kind of micro level and macro level to study of families Are there any like trends in that area is is it are there plenty of sociologists doing both kinds of work? and I know that you are editor of the Journal family journal of family issues And so I know that you are able to keep track of and that position a lot of the latest Studies that are going on. Yes for many years Sociologists who study families have looked at the impact of changes in gender roles on family dynamics And so recently we've been seeing quite a few papers that look at how the division of household labor Has been affected by women's employment. So in other words with more and more Women going to the labor market to work. How is that affecting who does the housework and who takes care of the children? That's a big issue. That's receiving a lot of attention And I would guess that would also include how male roles are changing because of that Absolutely how men's roles and women's roles are changing in our society. That's a major topic in Sociology and in a number of other fields Another change that we've seen recently in sociology of families is a greater look at children This may sound strange that I'm saying that this is a recent development because children are an integral part of families But believe it or not sociologists for many many decades actually Studied children and families only in terms of the ways that they were affected by their parents the ways that parents Socialized children to behave in certain ways and now sociologists are recognizing that Children also are active agents and family lives that children affect their parents just as much as or influence their parents Just as much props even more so than parents affect kids and that children factives on family issues are really important one of the Interesting papers that I've reviewed recently looked at children's reports of domestic violence or of marital conflict Sometimes parents think that if they're arguing softly behind closed bedroom doors Their children aren't aware of the conflict that they can hide the marital difficulties from their children But children are pretty adept at picking up on subtle cues and and they're actually pretty good reporters about What this the relationship is like between their parents? So this includes when you first said reports I thought that it might also include like the kinds of reports that they actually give when there's intervention Is this just there is By reports you mean just the way that they talk about it or do you mean in a legal sense? It can I actually meant in terms of research responses to researchers questions, but actually Children are often asked by courts to report on family dynamics in terms of child abuse or Domestic violence of some other type So I really meant it in the research sense But but it also applies in the broader context in terms of reporting to to social service agencies So I think it's fair to say and I'd like you to maybe expand on this a little bit I think some people might see these issues as more academic than they really are what we're really talking about here is the ways in which Families affect everyday living absolutely, and so this research goes beyond it has application to actually making family life Better and making the everyday life better Absolutely, one of the things that that I like to look at is how parents jobs affect their children's everyday lives I've studied ministers and their families male and female ministers one of the characteristics of that profession is that There's often required Relocation in other words every year or so ministers are reviewed and they may be asked to move to another Congregation so I've been interested in looking at how those moves from one community to another that are required by the parents job affect kids adjustment to new schools There's health and well-being and so that's certainly research like that Certainly has an impact on children's everyday lives or gives us insight into their everyday lives Do you feel that a lot of family sociologists Interact with policymakers our policymakers in the United States paying attention. I Definitely believe so perhaps we haven't reached the full potential, but I know that the Organization that I participate in the National Council on family relations is interdisciplinary It has sociologists psychologists home economists Nurses teachers and a number of other professionals There's actually a policy arm or policy branch of this organization and there's a representative located in Washington, DC and the representative from the organization is Ready to provide information to the lawmakers whenever they need it or ask for it So that is one of the goals of Researchers is to try to get the message out to people who can make a difference in people's everyday lives And the organization that you mentioned it in turn has had an impact on how These different disciplines are educating their students at the university level. Hasn't it absolutely? There's a major another major emphasis in the organization is on education and enrichment and that means educating community members about things like domestic violence, but it also includes improving teaching about families Keeping people updated about what the most effective teaching and learning techniques are educating teachers about Films and videos that are available or new computer technology that's available to teach about families So the organization is concerned with education and the enrichment part of it is Evaluating some of the new state programs that have been designed to make marriages more successful in in Florida for instance in 1998 I believe a state law was passed that required public schools to have education about marriage and family life and also Provided an option for couples who are getting married to take a four-hour course and marriage preparation That would then reduce the amount of money. They had to pay for their marriage license. Oh my goodness Yeah, so many states are changing their laws about marriage and family to try to reduce the divorce rate Try to make marriages more successful The one of the things that I think I know about is there's a certification that is available Yeah, yeah, and it pushes Across discipline. Yeah understanding of families. Yeah. Yeah, the National Council on Family Relations has a Program called the Certified Family Life Educator Program. It's for professionals from Full range of disciplines who work with families in different capacities And the program is designed to make sure that the professionals in these areas have competency on I think it's 10 different domains of family life. One of them is the internal dynamics of families. What causes conflict? How can you resolve conflict? Another is diversity in families how families are changing and how families with different economic backgrounds have may have different needs or resources so that is one of the Major education efforts that the organization has developed over the years The certification program to be a family life educator and is the trend toward more and more universities in the United States Offering that as part of their programs Yes Every year the National Council on Family Relations reports on the new programs that have added the Certified training in family life education and the number is increasing every year. It's in the United States in Canada I don't know if it's hit Europe yet, but definitely in the United States and Canada more and more programs I can't give you an accurate count of them, but I suspect they're well over a hundred University programs I didn't realize it had gotten up to that many. That's great. I think it has I I could be off by a little bit, but some of them have the program on a Bachelor's level somehow the programs designed for the master's level and some have them for PhD level and then of course some Of them combine all the levels But it is becoming much more popular and individual Professors can also be certified so it works on both levels This individual instructor can be certified and the entire program can be certified. Oh, okay and at the University of Florida are a program in Family youth and community sciences. I believe has recently been certified to offer this Program. Oh, that's good news Very good news and with this kind of interdisciplinary approach, then it sounds like they are indeed addressing some real specific social issues And how it impacts on families. Yeah, one of the one of the big issues these days is how the recent welfare reform at the federal level has Affected families. That's a big issue which we affectionately call welfare demise. Yes, right That's one of the big issues People are also looking at how Environmental issues environmental toxins that families and children are exposed to how that can affect their health and well-being So yeah, it sounds very interesting. Yeah, many of these topics found as though they're esoteric and intellectual and Empty exercises, but in fact, I think most of them do have direct Implications for people's everyday lives. Yes well, listen, I really appreciate you talking with us and Gave us a lot of good information to think about on our anniversary. Oh, happy anniversary. Yes. Oh my goodness 10 years 10 years Yes, so anyway Connie, I very much appreciate it. Well, thank you And I hope I actually gave you some sound bites you can actually you gave us plenty We're gonna be able to use most of it. No problem. So it sounds like it'll be fun So thank you for thinking of me. And if you when you come back to Florida for a visit, look me up Sure. Well, all right, you take care. Okay, you too, Patty. Bye. Bye. Bye You're listening to first-person plow on CFUV 101.9 FM Victoria So you've been married 59 years April. Yeah, well, so you guys don't look old enough You look like you're 12 or something She's been getting younger all the time Are you thinking about making it permanent? Yes, we are I wish everybody could do the same thing. Yeah, so tell us a little bit about how you met Why you decided to marry each other. Well, it was very easy. Joyce lived next door So you literally married the girl next door But he had lived there and we moved next door and I had man them up This was a fast to tell me we're up at Las Casinos where everybody goes for this Gordon used to deliver papers there. I says a long time ago I knew him from that so we moved in and all of a sudden I saw him and I said guess who we've moved next door that red-headed guy So it was you that roped him in When I saw Joyce up at the lake, I can remember there was a there was a in the movies in those days it was a Singer we Bonnie Baker and she wore Bip-over-hauls doing one song and I spotted Joyce with Bip-over-hauls on and I thought that's the cutest girl I've ever seen So how old were you when well, I was a we were we were 19 19 wanted married, but that was about So did you start courting each other immediately or well I put on to level 17 and I got pretty serious This was during the war that you met It was prior to the war We got married in 42 43. So were you in the military when you got married? No, I was I had Volunteered and being turned down for a heart murmur and then when I got my that was for the Air Force and I got the call up for the army They confirmed That I had a heart I was I was blue-slipped But he survived until he was how old were you when you had your heart operation? 20 years ago, so well, but we did have some separations during during the war Gordon was on the rally male We I traveled on the train sorting male and I was on the spareboard and I'd get sent to Small divisional centers where you had to Ambates like Edmonton. I'd be sent up there for three weeks and not get home I'd be sent to nipple and Saskatchewan for three weeks not get home You know so we had separations and then later on I was postmaster of the Eastern Arctic and I'd be gone for six months But we lived through all your postmaster. Where the Eastern Arctic? goodness gracious six months see voyage carrying the Canadian flag into these uncharted waters This was before our months and discovered the Northwest Passage just about Hudson was still floating around in a boat Yes, well this was 1952 and 53 significantly after Hudson I believe Yeah What kind of struggles have you weathered over the years and talk about separations were there? I guess that we survived over I was home having babies at that time and and I don't know So the six months he was home you utilized while I take it But Struggles no actually our life has been It's Camelot We we've we've both progressed from the time we we got married Joyce was a study voice and and piano and later in life. She got her Accredition from the front of conservatory is a piano teacher and I just I've joined the post office during the war because That was one of the places that the Selective Service would allow me to work and I just worked my way out and I never It wasn't a day that I didn't enjoy going to work and I ended up being me I started out as a part-time letter carrier and ended up as a regional general manager for post offices all the post offices I'm on in Ontario. So, you know life has been very good No, the beginning we certainly didn't have much money and it's you know, you had reasonable salary I suppose but you know, we certainly weren't Well-seeing I was had rental accommodation for a long time Was there any period during the last 59 years that you regretted or thought about leaving each other any of that kind You know that's the thing we've never had that we have been very very fortunate, but I Think we grew together and We didn't have the struggle You know, and I guess one of the things that have noted that people in their sense of humor they When they're in company, they will take shots one another and I think that's so destructive It's it's not the thing. We've always believed in each other and we enjoyed being together because we support each other, you know if Show appreciation for your endeavors and No, we're We're closer than ever, you know I come home and he's not home the house just feels empty that kind of thing So I I don't know maybe it is unique, but it has been very special for us How many children did you have three boys three boys and grandchildren great-grandchildren? We have 11 great-grandchildren and just three great-grands now We just had a family reunion this summer one of our granddaughters got married done in Ontario And it was Gordon's 80th birthday. So we had a real family get together there. Everybody was there. It was wonderful It's quite a family. It's a wonderful family. Yeah This boys are all married One of them has six children. Oh goodness. That accounts for the 11 11 yeah, and I mean we've seen them in all through their problems everybody has some problems So you mentioned That you grew together and that you've been supportive of each other What are the kinds of I guess secrets of long Elastic relationship would you offer? I think growing together is part of it. I mean, you know, there were we have busy lives and I Know our Friday nights out was a big one We'd always go out and have dinner and probably a glass of wine or two and Just chat around and I think later on Gordon retired early and One night when we were out he said you know, he said I think I'm going to I'm going to leave and That really surprised me because I hadn't I know he was under it was a very stressful job But he figured it all out and he was working for what the Boy on the mail room made, you know, when you think the difference of if he meant it took a pension So I that's okay. We did Stress Well, sometimes you get a little happy with one another I mean that you know Just When you have conflicts, how do you resolve them? We have such a solid base we know some so much history No We do discuss things we don't do things We don't go off and do things on our own like without telling the other one Only everything he ever did he went out and bought it about a car And he never did that again What did you do to the car? Of course dumb car But you might have pushed it off a clip or something No, I just want to push it like that commercial work that Kia commercial Have you seen it where she takes his golf clubs and goes up to the highest club? Because you might have gone to the Fable and Cliffs of Saskatchewan So No, I can't think that we've had any any real I mean we used to work things out if we are not quite agreeable I can usually talk him into what I want But do you think that it is give and take I mean you talking but he's talked to you into things too or Certainly, it's it's sharing That's what it's all about, you know in everything you do it's sharing you know Maslow Comes up with a hierarchy of motivational steps and they hold for marriage also You know you get to the point where you like to have recognition and You know this sort of and you have to have your own accomplishments. It works out When we do kiss a lot and we tell each other we love each other and we like each other and I think that has to be done It's not a bad thing. He's still hold hands in public. Oh, yeah We I mean we've been married ten years now and I have friends who comment on that I can't believe you still hold hands in public. I'm like we've only been married ten years Yeah, you said you're a piano teacher. Yeah, how about composition? Have you ever written him a love song? No, I'm sorry. I'm not I'm not productive in that way. I might sing him one Never written one. It's a thought I might try and you were with the you're with Canada Post. Did you ever write her a long letter? Well, you should see no, you shouldn't And they were treasures, you know, and he's still got them a lot of it was the story of what it was seeing which was so unique and Oh, that's wonderful. So we've got those. I think we might edit them a little bit for even to the kids But You know the garden's a good writer in here. He's written me poems. That's not I guess the only other question they have is You talk about you retired early and so forth. Do you think I mean, what have you done since the retirement? It was that an adjustment to go from him being gone a lot to him being around a lot But he you the first morning you know, I always thought I was a workaholic because I'd go years with the holidays I couldn't get break myself away from it the morning that I'd retired on The July the 12th on the 13th. I slept in I found out that I was a bum. I really But Then we had a stint with the United Nations and we went down and lived in Suriname for two years and since then we've Taken a university ship around the world at a semester at sea. We've circumnavigated South America We've been through the Aegean and the Adriatic Toward the capitals of Europe, you know, we've done some beach holidays, too. We've had good holidays we've been to the Cook Islands Fiji and Australia and Singapore and Malaysia and That area So yes, you know, we've done a lot. We've seen a lot. We've made we've made the best of our time and of course we've had comparatively good health and that's the Three things that you need in retirement. We have it. We have Comparatively good health. We have the money that Are to do the things that our health will allow us and we have each other share that and so One thing I have to tell you When he retired He took over the kitchen. Oh, wow. He's a wonderful cook. That's where the food is He cooks more than I do But but I've found it very difficult for the first few months because I thought, you know, I've always done it I'm a good short-order cook. I'm not a chef But I've got many meals for our kids in a big hurry and that kind of thing. Well, we ate pretty well But you always did some cooking on the weekend, but that's not unusual I've I've read a sociological studies of men who retire. It may do become much more Mesticated on retirement. They mean they cook. They do all those things that we would hope they'd done like Pleasant company excluded he's about ready to get me now But a considerable amount of men in the world, my dear do not do these things during their work Lives even when their wives work. You're an exceptional guy Well, Gordon always was helpful around the house, but I mean and he did cook certainly in on the weekends That got me you'd like to do that, but so once I got adjusted to it. It was fine Sometimes I go in the kitchen and I don't know what we need and what we have But we do share to I do I do help him sometimes And then you're active I know over here at the senior center Yeah, that's a good that's a good interest for both those Gordon's active there, too But this is a good thing. I enjoyed doing that very much when we've all been there there for quite a while I like to work in the kitchen This is president over there. This is her third year So how long have you been in Victoria when we came back from Suriname We started them out here in the winter time for three months and that was Joyce's mother and dad were living here then and We had sold her home in Toronto and moved up to George and they we had a home up there and We would stay there until our New Year's and come out here for three months and go back And that's where all grandkids grew up in all the summers. Yeah, and then Oh, I guess it was about our 65th birthday. Joyce said, you know, they're starting to give us these checks What are we going to do? So we bought a small place and was going to be a pit a tower, you know And then we started to stay a few months longer and it got to be six months and then We were staying practically the year and two years ago we sold the place in Ontario and we're here full-time so off and on we've been out here for 20 years a Very slow move Well, we drove back and forth or you know every every year And that was used to be an adventure and then it got to be just Well, we got tired of doing it sure But they were good years. We had the legs and the family always came up and the kids spent lots of time with us That one of our grandsons thought thinks he's going to take after his grandfather because he's only long and when he's retired He's not going to be like coffee Skip the little part Last word of advice like to a couple who have been married ten years or Guess talk to one another Be forgiving Be interested Don't be afraid to show your love And have a sense of humor, I hope Well, thank you. Thank you for your time You're listening to first-person plural on CFUV Victoria's Public Radio 101.9 FM one of 4.3 cable And on the internet CFUV.UVAC.CA Giving sociology an edge Today is a special episode celebrating our 10th wedding anniversary. This is our 10th wedding anniversary Since we cannot share pictures of our wedding, we decided to share our memories of the day We gathered with our friends at a park in St. Petersburg, Florida on a beautiful October Saturday and had a potluck picnic We played games and ate great food and were creatively lazy all afternoon The sunset drew near we asked our friends together around on the ground And we sat down with our closest friends Howard and Peggy Nearby so they could witness our vows and stand up for us as a couple Our niece Crystal also participated Our friend Bob, an ordained minister who presided over the ceremony began our wedding with these words An ancient lore there existed a bird that was reborn from its own ashes Instead of dying the legend says it made a nest of strides of expices and herbs on the top of a palm tree set it on fire and died From the burned body of the first bird a young phoenix issued forth The symbol of the phoenix is one of becoming whole and new from the ashes of one's own life Most beings spring from other individuals But there is a certain kind that comes from within not from another Ten years ago today we gathered with our friends and family to celebrate life and rebirth We both had had experience with ashes We both had seen our lives turn to ashes and from that bottom Chose a new life that was more full of hope than the previous one Just as the new phoenix must start again as a youth So did we have to begin again as babes Ten years ago today we began a new part of our lives We have learned since then that being together meant renewing our lives over and over again We have had additional experience with ashes in the past ten years Only this time we have risen together And it seems that each bottom gets a little higher as we learn to play and enjoy life together Our friend Peggy read Love Song by Renea Maria Wilkin How shall I hold my soul that it may not be touching yours How shall I lift it then above you to where other things are waiting? Ah gladly would I lodge it all forgot With some lost thing the dark is isolating on some remote and silent spot that when your depths vibrate is not itself vibrating You and me all that lights upon us though brings us together like a fiddle bow Drawing one voice from two strings it glides along Across what instrument have we been spanned and what violinist holds us in his hand Oh sweetest song Our niece Crystal read these words from Paul's second letter to the Corinthians Love is patient love is kind It does not envy it does not boast It is not proud it is not rude It is not self-seeking It is not easily angered It keeps no record of wrongs Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth It always protects always trusts always hopes always perseveres love never fails And now these to be remain faith hope and love But the greatest of these is love Ten years ago today we said these words to each other You and I met as strangers each carrying a mystery within us I may never know who you are I may never know you completely But I trust that you are a person in your own right Possessed of a beauty and value that our earth's richest treasures So I renew this promise to you I will impose no identities upon you I will invite you to become yourself without shame or fear I will hold a space for you in the world And defend your right to fill it with an authentic vocation For as long as your search takes you have my loyalty So I take you to be my partner in life To have and to hold from this day forward For better for worse for richer for poorer And sickness and health to love and cherish one day at a time I give you my trust and all my tomorrows Ten years ago today, I sang you this song Serves from Khalil Gibran's the life of love as found in tears and laughter spring Come my beloved let us walk amidst the gnolls for the snow is water And life is alive from its slumber and is roaming the hills and valleys Let us follow the footprints of spring into the distant fields And mount the hilltops to draw inspiration high above the cool green plains Come my beloved let us drink the last of winter's tear from the cut lilies And soothe our spirits with the shower of notes from the birds And wonder and exhilaration through the intoxicating breeze Let us sit by that rock where violets hide Let us pursue their exchange of the sweetness of kisses Summer let us go into the field my beloved Where the time of harvest approaches and the sun's eyes are ripening the grain Let us tend the fruit of the earth as the spirit nourishes the grains of joy From the seeds of love so deep in our hearts Autumn let us retreat for the tired brook has ceased its song and the bubbles and springs are drained of their copious weeping And the cautious old hills have stored away their colorful garments Come my beloved nature is justly weary and is bidding her enthusiasm farewell With quiet and contented melody Winter come close to me o companion of my full life Come close to me and let not winter's touch enter between us Sit by me before the hearth for fire is the only fruit of winter Feed the lamp with oil and let it not dim and place it by you So I can read with tears when your life with me has written upon your face Bring autumn's wine let us drink and sing the song of remembrance to spring's carefree sowing and summer's watchful tending and autumn's reward in harvest You have been listening to First Person Plural on CFUV 101.9 FM In Victoria, British Columbia, simulcasted on 104.3 cable and cfuv.uvic.ca First Person Plural is produced weekly by Dr. Patty Thomas and Carl Wilkerson. Music for First Person Plural is composed, performed and produced by Carl Wilkerson. For more information about First Person Plural or Patty Thomas and Carl Wilkerson visit our website culturalconstructioncompany.com