 Hello. Welcome to the Donahue Group. We're glad you could join us for another fun-filled half hour of conversation. We're sitting in this now really glorious new set with these very elegant and comfortable chairs. If any of our panelists would happen to fall asleep during this half hour, you'll know why. The chairs are just so very, very comfortable. We also want to welcome you on the Russian Day of Conception. This will date the filming of our particular program, but as we were remarking before we started, what has this world come to? I don't know what it's come to, but we can at least talk a little bit about Sheboygan and some of the various activities and antics of the city since the last time we met. The city and the county, of course. Most interesting to me, other than the police station actually getting started and hiring a police officer, a real police officer, is the news that the firefighters' union has agreed that for new hires, people will be required to live in the city. That feels fairly revolutionary to me. Tom, you- You've been there, right? Well, I've been there, and the firefighters- I mean, this isn't Russia, but- The firefighters, when I was there, they lobbied that they didn't have to live in the city, and we established a residency requirement only for directors in the city, employees in the city, and a non-supervisory role, or a non-directors role, didn't have to live in the city, and the police and the fire, they wanted it. And now it's 180. I mean, I'm just- I don't know what's happening. Well, according to the newspaper, this was part of the deal that they would agree to do this if the fire department got the ambulance service, presumably because if you're operating ambulances and something happens, you'd want people closer by. I'm not sure that- that line of reasoning actually works, but the interesting statistics in the newspaper, at least, according to Ed Suric, our human resources director, 535 of Sheboygan municipal employees, of all of the employees, 62% live within the city. So, quick, how many don't live inside the city? That would be 38%. Is that true, Professor Mathematics? I don't know if it's true- no, I mean, 38% is right, but I don't know if it's 38% is the true number. 62 plus 38 is equal to- 100%, yeah. I just- sometimes I make those mistakes. And of firefighters, it's pretty much split, half live in the city, half live outside the city. So there must be a grandfather's clause on this. Right. This would be for new hires. Yeah, it would be for new hires. Or an insurrection in the place. I think there's some excellent reasons for both approaches, but it seems to me that overall, it's nice to have your employees within the taxing district or the district that pays your wages. It can lead, I think, to some recruitment issues. Certainly in the school district, lots and lots and lots and lots of teachers. I take that back. I don't know what the statistics are. That would be interesting to go to the staff director and take a look at. Obviously, the school district is a broader entity than the city of Sheboygan, includes Tana Wilson, town of Sheboygan, the township of Cleveland, and who knows what other little birds are out there. But I don't know how many of our employees and administrators, the whole group, will be over 1,000 of us actually live within that confines of that district. It would be interesting to go through the staff directory. Maybe I'll do that tomorrow and get back to you about that. My biggest argument for not having a residency requirement is there's- you've got families that've grown up. You've got quality people who've grown up around the city of Sheboygan in the Falls, or the town of Sheboygan, or town of Wilson, or Kohler, and they have family homes, they have roots or connections, and to have a residency requirement to work in the city, that means they're going to have to pick up and move. It doesn't seem reasonable. I mean, they're 10, 15 minutes from where their job is by car. Although actually, if it is approved by the council and as a part of the collective bargaining agreement, they would agree that this would be only for new hires. I do know when I was on the police and fire commission, we always had lots and lots and lots and lots of applicants for firefighters. So I don't think you can say if you require people to live in the city, you won't have a good pool of folks to choose from, because I think a lot of people will relocate. But this leads to another interesting matter. Tom and I were talking that the city has really not been able to locate a finance director and has now hired a headhunter company that locates people to assist it. And in the city now, department heads do need to live within the city. I think those are other than the firefighters now, would be the only group of employees who do need to live in the city. Having been in on some of those interviews for various positions, I can tell you that there are some folks who don't necessarily want to live in the city. I find that hard to believe being a city resident myself, but so I think it does have on those higher levels that may have some implications for folks who want to live out in the country or whatever. I'm not sure a department head really needs, I think it's more important to have your police officers in the city than it is to have, you know, the head of public works. My argument for department heads is they're the ones that make the decisions that affect the city. Oh yeah. Okay. So to avoid any conflicts of interest with surrounding towns and bergs and stuff, they live in the city, what they do, what they decide is for the benefit of the city and they're not going to benefit from it because they live in the town or they live in the village because they won't benefit because they live in the city. So the argument for directors was they make decisions affecting the city, therefore they should live in the city. Don't you think there's a morale issue too? I mean, all these people are employed by an entity and none of them wants to live there? Well, this finance director thing is kind of interesting because, I mean, there's some nice places in the city and the person, you know, they're not finding somebody to live in the city or even close. There's some nice places on the north and various either north or south side and something else must be going on that they can't find anybody. I think it's a difficult position to fill. The school district is very lucky to have an excellent finance director, Roger Lies, worked with him. The county finance director is a very good individual. Tim Finch and these guys not only bring what I've seen as the key to their success is they not only bring accounting ability and an understanding of budgets and so forth, but they're creative thinkers too and they get the whole picture and they understand, you know, what you need to do to make the whole picture work. They understand complicated funding issues and those folks aren't as plentiful as people who are, you know, entry level firefighters. And so I think it really has been difficult to find somebody, you know, we've interviewed some good candidates, but I think it's such an important position. Boy, you know, one, you know, beyond your superintendent or county administrator or mayor and the HR person is very important too, but I think a key position is in any municipality or government entity is the finance guy. It's difficult to make exceptions though. I mean, that's what they've been talking about. Maybe in this position, they need to make an exception, but to say that that person is free to do what they want in the firefighter or teacher or someone else cannot, it's really not treating somebody equipping. You know, this bill in the legislature, it came up every two years to prohibit municipalities from having residency requirements. And one of the things that was brought up frequently is today that most families have two incomes. And with the dominance of government employment today, it's not unusual to find one spouse working in a school district and somebody else working as a firefighter or a police officer. Now, who is now more worthy to where do you live? And sometimes that makes it more difficult. The bills never passed. And the main reason they didn't pass was because of the Milwaukee situation where they were afraid of additional white flight. That white police officers, white firefighters, and so on would live in the suburban areas. And he'd continue to have people of color in municipal employment living in the city. And so the racial card was usually the one that did in the bill. But there were always good arguments to say that with spouses and so on and the situation of talent are not we hiring anyone, whether it's police officer or whoever, based on talent and not where they live is more important criteria. Right. Yeah. I mean, there are complex policy issues on both sides. So, well, I do hope that the headhunter finds some good finance department candidates because it is a kind of a key position. Looking in the confidentiality here in the room, is it a matter of the salary schedule not being competitive? Or is it just that you haven't reached that point, the discussions where money comes onto the table yet? Right. And I think there have been a variety of factors that have gone into the various interviews and so forth. And sometimes it seems like there's a fit. Sometimes it doesn't. It's just how those things go. I'm just saying like superintendents, county administrators, finance people, human resources, these folks don't grow on trees, even that beautiful tree over there. They're hard to find. And I think the city had done a good job of searching, but it really needs to ramp it up a little bit. So, I think... What Gebhardt was the first appointed finance director. Was that right? Because prior to that we had a comptroller treasurer with, was it Metcher? It was an elected position in the city. Decided to make it an appointed position, a non-elected position. And Gebhardt was our first finance director. Is that right? So now we're looking for our second finance director. And maybe we were fortunate the first time around, maybe as a first time. I think Rich did a fine job. Yeah. I mean, I think Rich was very competent and capable, but the job has grown infinitely more complex. And I don't think you'd want to elect a finance director. My goodness. I just don't... There may be a logistical problem here. I don't know if that's true or not, but many of the people who are in that position, whether Lacrosse, Eau Claire, Appleton, Oshkosh, Fund, elect Sheboygan, they're all about the same size community. And you wonder if those folks who are in those positions, else were very competent at their job, don't want to do a lateral move to Sheboygan. They want to go to Milwaukee or somewhere else to probably get bigger bucks and maybe more prestige and so on. So maybe there is something other than just the fact that they can't get somebody to move to Sheboygan, there's something about the slot that Sheboygan's in in pay scale and size and so on that makes it more difficult as well. And I think I can say that at least my perception is that residency requirements have not been the issue. I think it's just the right fit. And it's a complex position to fill. So I wish the city luck. I recall a while long time ago that the city did have a residence requirement for its city employees. Because I recall some of my friends going through young guys who lived, grew up, as you said, in Sheboygan Falls, they liked the community and there was all sorts of cat and mouse games being played about renting apartments and subletting it to somebody else, some kid or some young people. But your name and your mail went to all of that and all those kind of machinations. And then the city, while I was on the council, that was what I kind of worked on, was able to remove the residency requirement except for what we, my compromise was directors or heads of departments. And it lives on. And it lives on. But it's up to, the union's going to change it now. New hires are going to have to live in the city. And then if you're going to have the fireman, then why not the policeman? And then why not public works? And then any new hire has to live in the city. Like you said, don't play special favorites. Was this discussion about the trade off between firefighters in the future living in the city and the ambulance service going their way? That was after the decision was made to give it to the fire department? Or was that background discussion that was in part of the process of considering whether to? I don't know. That's interesting. And we just aren't going to get into that. The back door deal, right? Okay. I only know what I read in the newspaper. So there you go. We're going to move right along now, gentlemen. And speaking of jobs and... Enquiring minds need to know. Now you don't know the rest of the story. In terms of keeping a job, Mayor Perez was the Saturday headline a week or so ago, I think, certainly made some statements that would give you cause to think that he is running again. Apparently this was the Bratz for Breakfast event, which I did not attend. Sounds like it was a good time. John McGivorn from Milwaukee was one of the performers for lack of a better word. And he's extremely entertaining. So I think it would have been fine. Let's put this in the context of a presidential race that we're all sorely tired of. But any thoughts on the Mayor's casual announce? That will be in April of 2009. That's a little early. I guess I'm not surprised the Mayor is if what he said is true is certainly considering another run. What was interesting to me in the article is he said, I think it should only be for two terms. And any thoughts? As if anybody will remember in 2013 what he said in 2007. I saw somebody will dig it up and call it that. There's a whole group of Newt Gingrich Republicans who said the same thing. Sure. Term limitations are good days. When their term limit came up, boy, they were they quiet. Yeah, exactly. They're still there, many of them. In the first term, you're really learning the job. You make your mistakes. And he's made his mistakes politically. And I think he's going to learn. He's going to grow. And the second term tends to be the one where you oftentimes can be very effective. And so I think it's logical for him to look to a second term. I do too. I mean, the Council has changed really fairly dramatically. And a lot of the shenanigans from those first two years or the first year I should say just really aren't coming up anymore particularly. And so well, I don't know if it was a trial balloon just to see how people react and respond or whether it really was a comment that he said without really thinking about it because those great political investigative reporters Dave and Carol asked him. Or maybe it wasn't an attempt strategically to get a sense of who might be out there and is going to run against them down the road. I don't think anybody's surprised he's going to run for a second term. I didn't knock me over with a feather, certainly. I think I know his point was pretty much like yours. You spend some time learning the job and you finally get some momentum and pretty soon you're running for office again. We'll see what the voters think in a couple of years. I'll be so tired of politics and every permutation by November of 2008 that I saw Fred, this is a real digressing point, but I saw Fred Thompson on one morning show and he looked tired and he hasn't even started, so he was kind of laid back. You had to go out to California and David, I mean, so with Leno, that's late. Well, actually it's taped, I think, at about 7 o'clock at night, so maybe a long day for the senator. Well, Schwarzenegger declared on the J. Leno show, so I mean it's getting to be a political tradition. You wouldn't want to do that probably in Letterman. We've got gang, we've got bridges, we've got police stations, come on. You want to switch chairs here? I was going to move on to the story which I thought was pretty thorough for the press about gangs in Sheboygan and numbers and so forth. When I was on the school board, there were very significant concerns about gang activity even at the middle school level and then that very much tapered off as I was leaving the board and I don't know what your sense of it is. I mean clearly there's gang activity in the schools, how broad, how wide it is. I don't know. I thought the article was pretty thorough. I do question whether half of the crimes committed in the city of Sheboygan are gang crimes. That doesn't make a lot of sense. So there are very few violent crimes in Sheboygan. There are some of course but most of the crimes the vast majority of crimes in the city are either property crimes. There's some domestic violence which I actually as a violence but not a D.V.O. domestic violence. Those are usually charged out as ordinance or I'm sorry misdemeanors. Possession of marijuana as opposed to selling it is, I mean those make a very significant chunks of crimes. So I don't know and maybe there'll be some further explanation from the police department as to how they arrived at those figures and they could be true. I don't know. What's your sense? Ken, you're in the school system. Well it's again, it's something that seems to rear its ugly head and then it's addressed in a variety of ways and then it seems to go away for a while or go underground and students aren't aware of it or talking much about it and then it comes back again. So it seems like a virus that sort of pops up from time to time. It's a constant game of cat and mouse where students who are affiliated with groups and how serious they are and how much it's a want-to-be thing it stays a little tough to determine and how they demarcate themselves is really getting kind of bizarre as a Roman Catholic. So I think now that one of the things is rosaries of all things. Because some of those kids are probably attempting to do is to see if we're going to try to regulate what is a religious object and see if we're going to follow the First Amendment and all that kind of thing. That's actually fairly bright thinking. So at least they're learning the separation of church and state, you know, free exercise, applause and all that sort of thing in the First Amendment. So there's a lot of walking down the halls and classroom the day-to-day life within the classroom. Probably it's not certainly as an affecting instruction, I don't really don't think. What happens after school when people get off grounds or sometimes we got people staring at one another and giving each other looks in the halls, those are the things that kind of keep an eye on. Most of the very few times you've got fights breaking out interesting enough for some female in the last couple of years, at least at South, I can't speak to the North experience. And it's not really particularly gang related as much as somebody stealing somebody else's boyfriend kind of thing. South High School in the district has spent time training one of their assistant principles at considerable expense to go to various conferences about gangs and get acquainted with gang graffiti and gang rights and lots of passage and all that sort of thing. And I know that Tim Patton, our police liaison officer and some of the other security staff, we have really three full-time security staff people at South now. One officer, one retired officer and one, you know, kind of quasi-pera security person. We really are spending a lot of time wandering around halls and custodial staff is constantly cleaning up what little graffiti pops up from time to time immediately to keep things from being marked off and all that sort of thing. So... I have to just say that in terms of graffiti, and one of the pictures was somebody city worker I think cleaning graffiti up, from my perspective that's a pretty important thing to do. We were surprised visiting in Switzerland, you know what you always think of as the kind of white Anglo-Saxon Protestant capital of the world about five years ago, and Basel and Zurich covered with graffiti. You couldn't go past a bridge or a building that wasn't covered with graffiti. And it was, I think, at a certain point people just lost the will to clean it up. It just became so overwhelming. And not that life is degraded necessarily, but it would just surprise me. And I do think it's important from my perspective at least from municipalities to say you don't get to deface property here. We're, no matter how much it costs, we're going to clean it up because that's what we want our community to look like, not with all these stupid drawings and such. And at least so far, I mean I think that good efforts are typically made to do that. But yeah, I thought the whole series was interesting. And I don't know whether it'll fade in and out or... It depends on how well the community assimilates different cultures and different races. I think that's, if you look at these gangs, the growth of gangs in Sheboygan compared today as to 20, 30 years ago and they have a lot to do with who's fully accepted, who hangs out with who. And if we don't integrate and accept and accultrate, I guess, the different groups you're going to have these pockets that are going to stay out there. People who are frustrated and have a chip on their shoulder and so on. So it's a challenge for the community in many ways I think. As an aside, who gets together? I've thought of during the basketball season you've got Desitol's group. Now, is that a gang? I mean, they're together. It's a cult. Okay. And then you've got the Donahue gang. And that's just a sad little group. Well, it'll be interesting to see how it plays out and I do think it does reflect different unassimilated cultures and the theory behind gangs is that we all need to belong to anything. And if you are in a culture where you don't have a family to belong to or a social structure, the gang becomes your family and so it's... It's one analysis that they're making of the violence that the Islamic segments in Britain and so on. Those people are very much, while they're part of the Labour Pool, they are not assimilated whatsoever. The Islamic folks in the United States, as we oftentimes talk about a Christian nation, do assimilate people of other religions better than they do in Europe. And so then you've got a generation of people over there who have really a chip on their shoulder for not being... Don't see any upward mobility or don't see acceptance. And so they are apt in many cases to turn to violence and they're British citizens. They grew up in Britain, for example. Exactly. And they're caught making bombs or something. It's important that we be sensitive to diversity in our society and not let it go off on their own and develop anti-social type activities. And if people are educated, they do have decent jobs. Again, they have the life that's... They participate. Yeah, exactly. Well, the police are busy with gangs. They're also going to be busy moving into their new police station. A really nice groundbreaking ceremony. I was not there. But I do hear that Chief Kirk shook Mayor Perez's hand. Any pictures of that? I think there is. One, I put that in a real life campaign. Well, I think it was a great day. There was a band. There was cake. There were speeches. There were all the trappings of a glorious new building being built. So I think... You didn't lock arms and eat cake like they do at a wedding. That would have been real groundbreaking. From what I understand... It'll be interesting to have that new building. There will be a lessening of gang activity, I don't think so. One of the things that just came up is that you not only have to plan for building but you have to plan for maintenance. It's like when you move into a bigger house than you're used to, it takes a lot longer to clean. I think that the maintenance activities are going to be substantial. Other good news for the police department was the hiring of a among police officer. I think from a gang perspective, it's critical to have people in authority be respected by minority cultures. I think it's a long time coming. Considering the size of the among youth population in Chicago. Exactly. I'm not sure. I do not believe that there are any Hispanic officers on the force right now. There used to be a great guy who got a better job. I think recruiting women and minorities is real important. I still don't have a woman firefighter when I was on police and fire. That was my goal for five years is just to get one woman to interview and that never happened. So I think there are some big challenges that come up there. But as the face of Sheboygan changes, I think it's important to have authority figures change as well. It's been a great quick half hour. Thank you. We'll see you again. Thanks.