 Good afternoon. This is the second or third meeting for the House Human Services Committee on Thursday, April 1st, and we are joined this afternoon by House Natural Resources Committee to hear a walkthrough of Bill. I don't remember the number. S-20. Thank you. On S-20, a bill that has come over from the Senate that deals with PFAS and other chemicals that have been deemed hazardous to our public health. So this is we're not taking testimony today. We are having a walkthrough and I think it makes sense if we let let let council go through each section before we ask a question and then the if there is a question of what something means. And representative Gregoire, you have your hand still up hand up. Do you have something to comment or question? No. Okay. Thank you. Katie, if you would proceed. I appreciate it. All right. Good afternoon. Katie Mclin, Office of Legislative Council. I'm going to pull up the document. Okay. Are we all seeing S-20? Okay. See heads nodding. So we're good. Okay. Before I just walk you through the language, I thought it could be helpful to step back and just maybe walk you through the big picture of what some of these sections are that we're going to be looking at. So the majority of the bill does have to do with restrictions on perfluorolocal and polyfluorolocal substances, which from here on out I'll call PFAS for obvious reasons. But there are, there is a section of the bill that also deals with another set of chemicals. So the first section of the bill we're looking at PFAS that's in firefighting foam and also in PPE equipment for firefighting. So that's the first section we'll look at. The second section deals with food packaging and that's where we'll be looking at restrictions with regard to PFAS but also phthalates and bisphenols. The third section deals with PFAS and rugs and carpets. The fourth section deals with PFAS and ski wax and other tuning products. And lastly, the final section deals with chemicals of high concern to children. This is legislation that was passed several years back. And I will talk about that legislation and how this bill proposes to amend it by adding the class of chemicals, PFAS, to that list of chemicals of high concern to children. So with that, we'll jump right into this first section on firefighting foam and PPE. And so first we have a definition section. And for the time being, I'm going to scroll past the definition section and move right to the more substantive provisions. In 1662, we have language that a person, municipality or state agency shall not discharge or otherwise use for training purposes. Class B, firefighting foam that contains intentionally added PFAS. In 1663, we have language that restricts the manufacturer of class B firefighting foam from manufacturing, selling or offering for sale or distributing for sale or use. In Vermont, class B firefighting foam to which PFAS have been intentionally added. And then in subsection B, we have a carve out that says if any class B firefighting foam to which PFAS was intentionally added is required by federal law, then we're carving that out and allowing that usage. And if the federal law were to change the last sentence in this subsection says that the Department of Health is to adopt rules to come into conformity with the change in federal law. And then in section 1664, we're moving from firefighting foam in this section to looking at the personal protective equipment. And subsection A, a manufacturer or another person that sells firefighting equipment to a person, municipality or state agency shall provide written notice to the purchaser at the time of sale if the PPE contains PFAS. And this written notice is to include a statement that the PPE contains PFAS and also the reason that the equipment contains PFAS. In subsection B, the manufacturer or the person selling the PPE and also the purchaser of the PPE is to retain the notice for at least three years from the date of the transaction. And upon request of the Department of Health, a person, manufacturer or purchaser is to furnish the notice or written copies and associated sales documentation to the department within 60 days of the request. Then section 65, we're back to firefighting foam. The manufacturer of Class B firefighting foam that's prohibited in the section that we just looked at shall notify and writing persons that sell the manufacturer's product in the state about the provisions of this chapter, not less than one year prior to the restrictions taking effect. And then a manufacturer that produces cells or distributes the Class B firefighting foam that's prohibited is to recall the product and reimburse the retailer or any purchaser of the product for the purchase of that item. In 1666, the Department of Health may request a certificate of compliance from a manufacturer of Class B firefighting foam or the personal protective equipment. And the certificate of compliance is to attest that a manufacturer's product or product meets the requirements of this chapter. In subsection B, the department is to assist other state agencies and municipalities to avoid purchasing or using Class B firefighting foam to which PFAS have been intentionally added. And the department is to assist other state agencies, townfire districts, and other municipalities to give priority and preference to the purchase of PPE that does not contain PFAS. And then this is the last section of this chapter. And this is a penalty section that a violation of the chapter is to be deemed a violation of the Consumer Protection Act. The AG has the same authority to make rules, conduct civil investigations and enter into assurances of discontinuance and bring civil actions and private parties that have the same right and remedies as under that chapter. So now I'm transitioning from the first section that had to do with firefighting foam and firefighting personal protective equipment. And I'm moving to the next section which creates a chapter entitled 18 on food packaging. So this one, well, first we have a definition section and I'm going to move past that for the time being. But this one section food packaging deals with three different chemicals. So each subsection has a different chemical at issue. So in subsection A, this has to do with the class of chemicals, PFAS. A manufacturer, supplier or distributor is not to manufacture, sell or offer for sale, distribute for sale or distribute for use in this state. A food package to which PFAS has been intentionally added in any amount. So that's the subsection on PFAS. And then in subsection B, we move to the section on bisphenols. So this section is different from the previous one in that this authorizes the department to adopt rules. And it's not a straight restriction on sale or distribution as is the first paragraph. So pursuant to 3VSA chapter 25, that's the rulemaking authority. The department may adopt rules prohibiting a manufacturer, supplier or distributor from selling or offering for sale or for promotional distribution, a food package or the packaging component of a food package to which bisphenols have been intentionally added in any amount greater than an incidental presence. And then there are specifications. The department may only prohibit a manufacturer, supplier or distributor from selling or offering for sale or for promotional distribution of food a food package or the packaging component of a food package in accordance with this subsection if the department determines that there is a safer alternative readily available and sufficient quantity and at a comparable cost. And the safer alternative performs as well or better than bisphenols in a specific application of bisphenols to a food package or the packaging component of a food package. And then in subdivision two, if the department does prohibit a manufacturer and supplier or distributor from selling or offering for sale or promotional distribution, the food package or packaging component under this subsection, the prohibition is not to take effect until two years after the department determines that a safer alternative is available. So this, like I said, is different than the general assembly taking action and making a decision. This gives the authority in this subsection with regard to bisphenols for the Department of Health to make the decision. It's a may not a shall that they can adopt rules. And if they would like to do that, they have to have a showing that safer alternatives are available and that the amount, the quantity is sufficient and also that it has a fair cost comparison. And then the third subsection, again, we're changing which set of chemicals we're looking at. Now we're looking at phthalates in this particular section. So a manufacturer, supplier, distributor is not to manufacture, sell, offer for sale, distribute for sale or distribute for use in the state. Food package that includes inks, dies, pigments, adhesives, stabilizers, coatings, plasticizers, or any other additives to which phthalates have been intentionally added and any amount greater than an incidental presence. And then in subsection C, excuse me, subsection D, you'll see language that we're going to see repeated throughout the bill. And that's that this section does not apply to the sale or resale of used products. And then in section 1673, there's language about certificate of compliance. And again, this paragraph is repeated throughout this bill. So it dictates that a manufacturer subject to the prohibitions under this chapter are to develop a certificate of compliance under this section. The certificate of compliance attests that a manufacturer's product or product meets the requirements of this chapter. And if the department requests the certificate, the manufacturer shall provide that within 30 calendar days after the request is made. So we'll see this in each of the following chapters. And then we have rulemaking authority that the commissioner of health is to adopt. And here we have a shall, not a may shall adopt rules necessary for the implementation, administration and enforcement of this chapter. So now we're leaving the chapter on food packaging. And then next chapter is on rugs, carpets and aftermarket stain and water resistant treatments. Okay, so we have again at the start of the section, a definition section for the moment I will move past that. And I should mention that this section is specific to PFAS. Section A, we have language that the manufacturer's supplier distributor shall not manufacture cell offer for sale or distribute for sale or distribute for use in this state a residential rug or carpet to which PFAS has been intentionally added in any amount. And again, we have this repeating language that this does not apply to sale or resale of a used product. And then in 1683, we have a similar language that applies to aftermarket stain and water resistant treatments. So the manufacturer's supplier distributor shall not manufacture cell or offer for sale, distribute for sale or distribute for use aftermarket stain and water resistant treatments for rugs or carpets to which PFAS has been intentionally added in any amount. And again, the language that this does not apply to sale or resale of used products. And in 1684, we have the same section that we just went through with regard to food packaging. And that's the certificate of compliance that the department can request a certificate. And the manufacturer has to provide that certificate within 30 days after their request is made that the manufacturer's product meets the requirements of the chapter. Again, we have rulemaking language. And again, this is a shell that the department must adopt a rule as necessary for the implementation, administration and enforcement of this chapter. Okay, so now we're leaving the chapter and carpets rugs and aftermarket stain removal and we're moving to ski wax. Again, this new chapter starts with a definition section that I'll move over for the moment. And then we have the same kind of prohibition language that we've been seeing in the last few chapters. And that is that a manufacturer, supplier or distributor is not to manufacture seller offer for sale, distribute for sale or distribute for use in the state, ski wax or related tuning products to which PFAS has been intentionally added in any amount. And again, we have the same language in subsection B that this does not apply to the sale or resale of used products. In section 1693, we have the same language about the certificate of compliance. And in 1694, we again have the requirement that the commissioner of health adopt rules to implement this chapter. Okay, so now we're we're leaving ski wax chapter and we're moving to the chapter on chemicals of high concern to children. So just to step back, there's a piece of legislation that was passed, I want to say in 2014, but don't quote me on that. And in this piece of legislation, it required that products that were designed for children manufactured for children, if they had chemicals on a particular list, a list of chemicals of high concern to children, that the manufacturers had to report the incidents or the occurrence of that chemical to the health department. And the department was to publish that list on its website, and what chemicals were in certain products on its website. So this is existing law. And this bill amends existing law to add the class of chemicals PFAS to the list of chemicals of high concern to children, meaning that if this section five were to be enacted, then if a manufacturer is manufacturing a product meant for children that contains PFAS, that manufacturer be required to report the occurrence of PFAS in to the health department and the health department would be publishing that on its website. So you'll see the conforming changes to make that happen. Existing loss is the following chemicals are designated as chemicals of high concern to children. And this recognizes that PFAS is a class of chemicals. So it says now it would read the following chemicals are a member of a class of chemicals. And then there's a long list right now of 66 chemicals. And you'll see that I don't have all 66 listed. I have the ellipses and number 67 would be PFAS. And then 68. This is just renumbering. This is existing law. It's a catch all that the commissioner by rule could add another chemical. So this is not changing existing law existing law other than to renumber the list. And then we have the effective date section, you'll see there's a lot happening in the effective date section. So let me walk you through it. First the act takes effect July one of this year. And then there are exceptions. The piece about firefighting foam and the section on chemicals of high concern to children wouldn't take effect until July one 2022. And then the sections on food packaging, rugs and carpets and ski wax wouldn't take effect until July one 2023. So this does not all roll out this July. It kind of rolls out in a more of a tiered manner. So that's the end of the bill. I will stop sharing and then you can all see each other. Thank you. Thank you, Katie. And I'd like to ask representative Sheldon if she has any questions or members of her committee have any questions? Thank you, representative Q. My first question may be a little bit pedestrian, but on pages six and seven, the term incidental presence was used and I'm curious what that means. There's a definition. I didn't see it when I didn't get all the way back to the first definitions, but what's the definition of incidental presence? So we do have a definition of intentionally added. I know you're saying incidental presence. I want to just take a look at that quickly. I'm scrolling down. First time I heard it, I think was page six. It's actually under six section 1672 food packaging the last term in sub B. Intentionally added. No, incidental presence under food packaging. Oh, okay. I see that have been intentionally added in an amount greater than an incidental presence. I don't believe we have a definition of incidental presence. Yeah, if we don't have a definition of incidental presence in that section. So in the absence of a definition, I would say that if we're a court to look at it, they would use the plain meaning of the word. Unless and if it's something that the committees felt strongly about that this should be a term that's defined or explained further, then we could put something into the definition section to explain that a little bit further. What does incidental presence mean? If it means something beyond what would be the plain meaning of the word. Katie, thank you. That would that sounds like something to consider as we move forward. Representative McFawn. Madam Chair, I had the same question. I looked it up in the dictionary and all it says is it's a minor amount. And minor, I would have a question. What's that mean? Like some definitive amount. So I think that is a both you and Representative Sheldon have brought that up as a question. So that is something as we take testimony, we can have more conversation about in terms of what people view that. I do remember, whether it was 2014 or other times, that there are other terms that are, I'm remembering a conversation, Katie, either from you or from Bryn or from Michael Grady about plain meaning and courts and things like that. So that's something to consider. Thank you. And I'm sorry, Representative Sheldon, you may have had other questions or things that you would want, that you would be curious about. This is not a place for debate because we're just had a walk through, but rather questions that you have. I just had a flag on the PFAS is being considered as a class under chemicals of high concern. And I don't know if Ms. McClain could comment on that because it's been a little controversial in other areas of our PFAS conversations. I really don't have a lot to add on that. And I would say that's probably a better question for the witnesses. I'm not a chemist. I was not always in the room in Senate Health and Welfare when it was being discussed. When I was there, I didn't specifically hear that being raised, but that certainly doesn't mean that it wasn't raised by witnesses when I was not present with the committee. So that is something. Thank you for bringing that. I actually wrote down what's the difference between chemicals and list or class. So again, we are not debating. We're asking questions in terms of moving forward representative Rosenquist and then representative McCullough. Thank you. I was just my memory says that we dealt with this either last year or the year before some similar bill. And I just wondered if somebody could put this in historical context. So are we redoing this bill because it never made made it because of COVID or and in what context are we taking this bill? I guess what I'm sure. This particular bill representative Rosenquist passed the Senate or shall I say a bill that dealt with many of these issues, including I'm remembering firefighting and other food packaging, passed the Senate last year. And we got it at about the same time as we got the bill that we discussed this morning. And so we got it at the end. We got it maybe maybe immediately after crossover at which point we went into COVID emergency. And that's all we did then. So so there's that. So this is a bill that now has twice gone through the Senate in the last two years. And whether you call it builds on it, whatever work that this committee has done over the past six or seven years, every couple of years, whether it's on children's toys, whether it is on chemicals. So that is where that is now. Representative McCullough. Um, Katie, you I've got two questions. One, you said you have a definition for intentionally added. Could you could you share that with us? Sure, that definition I believe appears in each of the chapters that's being proposed in this bill. And it reads intentionally added means the addition of a chemical in a product that serves an intended function in the product component. Okay. Thank you. The other question. It appeared that when we were in the carpets section, that is this only applied to residential carpets. And are you aware of what the Senate was thinking with only residential and not commercial? Um, I, I'm, I don't know if commercial came up. To be honest, as I said, I'm not always in the room. I know there at one point was a concern about it not applying in the automotive automotive context. So perhaps residential was added to be clear that we're talking about somebody's home, not somebody's car. But in terms of commercial, I don't recall the conversation that could have happened and I may not have been in the room. Right. Okay. Thank you. Representative McCullough. Representative Dolan. Thank you. In, in respect to representative from Georgia, I do want to just flag that acts 21 that passed in 2019 was a PFOS bill to look at testing for these chemicals of concern, at least six of five of the constituents in particular in drinking water and to establish water quality standards. What this bill, what in front of us does is to actually do source reduction to eliminate or reduce the sources that are contributing to contamination. Thank you. Are there other suggested questions? We are going to be taking testimony on this. I mean, this, we're not voting this out today. We're not voting this out tomorrow. We're going to be taking testimony over the next couple of weeks and marry that with a couple, with a couple of other bills that we'll be looking at. And if there, I, I want to represent a Sheldon if there are people who, who in particular, you think that, that would be helpful in our debate and discussion of this to please let me know. I do have a list from the Senate, from, from the reporter of, from, from the lead sponsor of a bill from the House. It is similar to this as well as from, like all pieces of our legislation, we have people who think this is a good, a good path to go. We have people who think, have a lot of questions. And so I have people representing all of those perspectives. But please add, please provide some suggestions to us. It would help round out our debate and discussion. We will do that if we have them. I'm looking at the, I'm looking at the Senate list right now. Good. Well, thank you very much for joining us. Thank you, Katie. Thank you for having us. Oh, you are welcome anytime. But I think what was on the agenda today was a walkthrough to sort of wet everyone's appetite for what is going to happen later. And we are now going to turn back to a bill that we hope that you will be supporting when it's on the floor. But it doesn't really have to do with natural resources. It has to do with something equally important, our children, and creating an Office of Child Youth and Family Advocate. So thank you. All right. Well, we'll leave you to your good work for the children. And thanks for having us. Okay. Thank you.