 The next panel is on having heard a little bit about the different process to actors the next panel is actually on innovative finance tools for protecting forests and we're going to we've got we've got four panelists here to talk about different ideas that they have in terms of protecting forests. Can I just ask people to if you're still talking just to pay attention if that's okay is it all right so so so so this section we're going to hear from four speakers on those topics but the first thing I want to do is before I ask you to and perhaps your answer will be partly in what you present but the question was raised in the in the last session and I'm gonna up the ante a little bit and we all know that there is a huge amount of price at the capital in the market so if I said to you said to you I've got a billion dollars to invest in red and I want a five percent rate of return what would your answer be and if your answer is going to be about what you're going to present on your topic we'll incorporate that into it but maybe I'll start August with you what what are we gonna do with a billion in Indonesia is that what on red that's is that the question well okay give me that billion I'll tell you what okay here landscape Indonesia is is a company that bridges company finance with sustainable landscape management so my my my answer obviously is that I'm gonna put it in a landscape management and that means basically a space in which there's conservation there's production all in the same sort of area and what what I'd like to do is to see that both actually produces assets so the conservation produces ecosystem services assets and in which obviously carbon being one of them and for the production portion of landscape we'll see commodities and that could be timber that could be palm that could be coffee cocoa rubber and and the likes obviously I'd like to see them all systemably certified so within that landscape we'll see not only return going back to the investors but also the components within the landscape be somehow strengthening each other that should be my short answer thank you right thank you I'll probably just continue with my presentation I should probably use the podium here thank you very much everybody for being here thank you for APRS both governments of Indonesia and Australia for doing this I should probably hold on to this there you go landscape as I did mention bridges sustainable jurisdictional landscape management with finance how do we bring that billion basically into projects would I like to show you with this very simple diagram is that there are different sources of financing ranging from grants that would come from public private CSR and philanthropies and then we have private investments public investments there are public sectors that are doing investments not only doing grants as well as some sort of innovative financing and we are probably gonna hear from a number of other panelists what these innovative financing schemes are and they could come from both private and public sector what is also seen as the other side of of this diagram is a series of basically portfolio projects you have conservation and rehabilitation that would basically bring ecosystem services assets that we could use for example we could retire some of the carbon emissions assets towards our national or nationally determined contributions to the Paris Agreement and also for private retirement retirement of the assets a number of companies a number of investors would like to see retired carbon emission credits for their own benefits and then also other ecosystem markets in addition to carbon we have seen markets for biodiversity for water and many others and also then I know the investment would go towards sustainable commodities that would go towards commodity markets that you would see being another reason why they are investors the idea is basically to mix to blend all these sources of financing you don't only depend on investment alone you don't depend on grants alone and we have been depending on grants when it comes to for us financing and I think we should start thinking about blending the grants with many other investment and financing options and that's that's what so what I'd like to show you is what is emerging right now which is the use of bonds to to basically to gain other sources of financing bond use is basically a statement of debt that would be guaranteed it can be guaranteed by by by a country by a government through sovereign guarantee it could be guaranteed by corporate corporations as a corporate guarantee it could be guaranteed by many other things by by by underlying assets by by by pledges and those guarantees will be basically be used to issue bond that would raise funds from bond bond investors what we could do is once we get the bond investors invest and we raise funds from the bonds we could use that asset to to to leverage private investors and and and gain more financing from there the bond investors of course would have different interests you know very very very common interest would be to gain return in terms in bonds it would be in terms of coupon they will be basically paid either on a monthly basis on a yearly basis the equipment and the fund that's that's raised through bonds and use as leverage to to get investors will be will be will be invested in projects a number of bond investors would like to see other returns than cash and actually Martin's company I believe advised IFC to to structure forest bond that was highly you know discussed heavily discussed last year it was quite a successful bond issuance in which some of the investors actually would like to see carbon credits being their return instead of cash or in addition to cash and a bond structure can also provide that kind of that kind of return so this whole thing could certainly generate enough financing for the for forest and forest restoration forest conservation and also the reduction of the island underlying causes of deforestation reducing the risks of encroachment and deforestation there are elements of course you know that need to be discussed of course we need to talk about about about scale we have a lot to do we have a lot of forests to restore we have a lot of forests to conserve so we need to have scalable public private people partnership and that includes innovative investments that would be sustainable that would sustain for a very long period of time it has to be open for private sector involvement in a market based structure because after all private sector does need to see return on their investments and then scalable pipeline development including incubation we are talking about scale we are talking about a big amount of money and big a big number of activities to be done we don't have those activities yet on our table we need to develop those activities right now we need to coordinate both the register system and the monitoring system the audit system to ensure that we are talking about the same thing when we are talking about conservation we are talking about the same thing when we are talking about restoration and lastly of course we need to ensure that the whole financing system is safeguarded both in terms of fiduciary safeguards the money that goes in and goes out need to be completely accountable and also the social the social and environmental safeguards that the projects that are financed need to be socially and environmentally acceptable through you know certain standards I think that is pretty much what I have to share with you thank you very much okay thanks very much August well I'm not gonna ask actually I'm gonna ask Michael Brady from the IFC given August commented on bonds to pick up on the bond discussion and giving you a very successful issuance last year and there's a microphone just on the table in front of you good morning my name is Michael Brady I'm the forestry wood product program manager for international finance corporation IFC is the private sector arm of the World Bank Group so we're the sister organization to the World Bank we provide financing to private sector and our colleagues in the bank provide financing and advice to governments the public sector I'm gonna talk to you today about some of the tools for financing you can see up on the slide IFC as a financing institution our core activity is investment and I've listed here the variety of investments tools that we provide to private sector everything from short-term loans to blended finance where we we blend commercial money with concessional finance and are able to to fund innovative take more risk with that type of finance I provide our I work in our advisory services where we work with investment teams to provide technical safeguards sector advice either before or during an investment so my background's forestry and I work with our investment teams on everything from forestry technical issues to our safeguards I thought I would start by just going through and I think it would be helpful to to sort of lay the a foundation of financing understanding this is our core activity and IFC and the forestry wood product sector is what we we call the real the real sector so we we provide financing to a very wide range along the value chain of from upstream forestry all the way down to product manufacturing and retailing and more and more our preferences to finance integrated operations that have both upstream and downstream activities along the value chain our agribusiness and forestry group represents about 7% of IFC's total financing so it's not it's not the largest but it's also not the smallest we do about 500 to a billion dollars of financing annually around the world and we've been in the business for 60 years so we've had our shares of challenges and successes one part of the that experience is getting a really firm understanding of project selection you know how we evaluate forestry projects whether it's in the real sector or or environmental services that I'll talk about later and I've listed here in the slide the the different criteria that we use to evaluate investment opportunities and you'll notice that the the first item is sponsor quality so we look at the performance and the integrity of the companies that we we hope to invest in land tenure sustainability is a huge issue for investments obviously fiber supply we were seeing a steady in demand for increased fiber E&S responsibility environment and social responsibility I'll talk a little bit later about our eight performance standards that guide our our responsibility sustainability responsibility safeguards and competition competition investment costs and investment timing these are all very detailed financial aspects of investments that our credit group takes very very seriously so even though projects may have great development stories if they don't generate returns then unfortunately we either have to work with the company to get to that point or or walk away more and more we're in the business of creating markets so some of the examples are climate finance I'll talk about later but another more practical example is things like product substitution where we're seeing more and more wood products being developed from planted forests as opposed to natural forests and that's a that's an exciting area so that's our first I guess tool in the toolbox is real sector financing next one there's been discussion about bonds IFC has been in the green bond business for a since 2005 we've provided almost six billion dollars in green bonds just recently issued a two billion dollar green bond I think it's the largest and all of the proceeds from the green bonds are set aside for investing in things like renewable energy energy efficiency and more more recently other climate related projects in developing countries not quite yet into red investments but we're hoping that that that won't be too far along I hope people understand when we talk about bonds there's the the you know the green bond is investment in the in the bond principle so all of the you know IFC regularly raises bonds to provide its finance and capital next slide a second type of bond August you mentioned the forest bond this was a bond issued in 2016 and this is a very different type of bond the bond principle the amount you know the the the amount of money that investors put into the bond remains within IFC's capital accounts it's the bond coupon or the annual interest that is provided to bond holders that makes this unique and in this case for the forest bond IFC purchased carbon credits from a red project in Kenya the Casagau project and provided these credits to bond investors as part of their annual coupon or interest payment and so obviously the the bond investors were interested in in the bond to receive those credits and on the slide there's a flowchart showing the the different element or components of the bond you'll notice that we worked with BHP Billiton to really provide support for the bond in case you know in cases where carbon credit prices fluctuate we've decided to continue on with the forest bond and we're looking at projects around the world including Indonesia so this is a this is an ongoing kind of an exciting activity for us so those are the three I guess investment or financing tools that I wanted to cover next slide is it's really some of the challenges and new approaches that we see on the horizon and some of them have been addressed here and in this in this conference and one of them in particular is how we can involve private sector in cooperation with with the public sector on strengthening red implementation I think we've all agreed and it came up yesterday afternoon that the private private sector does play an important role in implementing red plus we see in Indonesia for example the 17% of NDCs allocated to the forestry sector much of that sectors represented by production forest all of that production forest is represented by concession licensing programs by private sector so a very substantial role for private sector in Indonesia's Indonesia's production forest and we see that that similar elsewhere article six also came up yesterday of the Paris agreement that really lays out the way private sector can engage with with government in bringing in project scale red activities and I see that this is still a big challenge for example Indonesia's starting to address article six particularly article six point two that brings in private sector but a long way to go before providing clarity on linkages between red projects and how they can be nested within national NDC at the same time being able to market carbon credits internationally and I think we firmly believe that there is a need for both public and private sector roles in in red next final slide just lessons learned we keep coming back to the need for strong safeguards and we've been fortunate in IFC to have a very very I guess we considered a global benchmark through our eight performance standards and in red is addressed here or greenhouse gas emission issues under performance standard three on a resource efficiency and in performance standard six on biodiversity protection so that I can't emphasize enough how these safeguards dictate just about everything we do and in our financing work and we'll continue in the future thank you so thanks very much Michael for that there's one point on your slide I would do want to come back to which is you made the point that authorize private entities to develop programs that will generate ERs be nested international accounting this is one of the big debates but how do you actually do that in a way that decreases the risk for the private sector so they're not subject to an overall accounting rounding up error that wipes out their gain so we'll come back to that point and now just like to go I think I actually created a little bit of difficulty in the order of the slide so I think I might actually gave ask you to to go next good morning everybody I guess tomorrow my name is Gabriel I cough I'm the CEO and co-founder of the story capital the story capital is a it's a new company where we're the new kids on the block in a lot of ways in the finance space the story is the brainchild of two long-standing companies here in Indonesia PT forest carbon and diameter consulting and we've been working on this model called the sustainable commodities conservation mechanism or the SCCM many of you might have heard of it by now I know that many of you in the room have actually been very important stakeholders and consultations that we've had on the SCCM and it's great to see many of you here because of the founding partnership between diameter and forest carbon did the background of of the story is really focused in two fold it's frikas it's focused first on how to help guarantee and secure long-term sustained financing for conservation restoration Pete rewetting and village forestry projects on the ground in the real world for a minimum of 20 to 25 years what we've seen over and over and over again is projects suffering whether they're NGO or non or for-profit projects suffering with one two three year grants or donor funding cycles and it's exhausting and it's very insecure and it's very hard to create long-term conservation planning for a lot of projects this way on the other side we are looking to address what we call the demand issue meaning how do we link consumer goods manufacturing retailers growers the entire commodity sector not only palm oil but but pulp and paper timber rubber cocoa how do we how do we fix the market failure of deforestation in a way in which we're weaving conservation into that market failure as a way of correcting the market so that conservation is a fundamental part of production so that you cannot produce without also without also taking conservation and reforestation rehabilitation into the equation one caveat at the outset the story capital is not in any way a standard setting body the story capital does not does not dictate the way in which we work with consumer goods manufacturer consumer goods manufacturers or our clients or or growers or producers and we do not dictate the way that we interact with projects we work entirely within each commodity sector specifically and we work with growers individually with with growers on one side and with conservation projects on the ground on the other side we also do not run our own projects we work only with third-party projects to help uplift the entire conservation community sector so just go on to the next slide you can so the way it works in summary is we've seen that there's this there's this emerging demand market for conservation space especially in the commodity space whether that's from any of the the demand sources I was talking about before each of the different each of the different market demand sectors have or are have emerging compliance standards built into them could you just back up one bit before you get to my no no no back up back up that's my punchline down there you back up one more please thank you so we have emerging standards such as the RSPO's compensation mechanism you have you have emerging standard you have that's an existing process you have emerging standards under the FSC and you have a very nebulous and very uncertain no deforestation commitment issue whereas the FSC and RSPO are really focused on historical on ameliorating historical deforestation forward looking going going to the future we really need to understand how do we how do we really tackle the question of zero deforestation and what does that mean what happens if if a company has a hundred hectares of deforestation in its supply chain should Unilever just kick them out of their supply chain and is that is that an efficient way to deal with the problem because it's going to happen certainly it has happened already so how do we fix that and and how do we do that in a very market friendly conservation friendly way that does not in any way incentivize deforestation which is does not create a cut and pay system and which is very multi stakeholder so we've created so on the other side of the question on the other side of the equation go ahead yep you can go for it now on the other side of the equation we're working directly with projects across the country you might have heard of many of them we're now we have now signed letters of intent with 85 projects in Indonesia most of those are village forestry projects but they also include ecosystem restoration concessions and wrap carbon and wrap and and pan carbon concessions the idea is ultimately to put a financial vehicle between these two sectors of conservation and commodity production to to generate a way to generate a platform transparently which manages finance and compensation payments and financing from one side and directs it into long term sustained payments into the other side so that projects can be guaranteed projects know where their funding is going to be coming from five years ten years from now and on the other side the palm oil sector the retailers the consumer goods sectors they know that they have a solid vetted portfolio of projects that they can work with to help address their their liabilities historical or future go ahead since since yeah one more one more one more step forward since since the demand sector puts in money on in an accelerated pace and payments are made on an annual basis over the long term that leaves us with it with financing in the fund which is which can be used for investment and in ideally we're looking at how we can use that specifically for impact investments which generate returns and then one step forward please creates a revolving green fund effectively at the center which is entirely 100% market driven and can also be blended with other types of finance at the same time this is all meant to generate long-term financing again for the conservation initiatives on the ground transparency on the commodity production side so that's a that's the that's the quick and dirty where we are supported by the Packard Foundation and the partnerships for forest program so I'm happy to answer more questions later on thank you just just gave you one important point which you did highlight but I think tonight on on that fund is that is that in addition you also bring in other capital in the SCCM other investment capital to invest in the underlying assets which further generates the cycle I think it's a very important point yes it's designed specifically to be able to receive direct liability payments or also investment finance CSR finance we even had one producer come to us and simply say we have a very large CSR budget would you be willing to simply take this budget on and help us identify the portfolio projects where it can go so it's a very very very dynamic vehicle it's not rigid whatsoever okay thanks for that okay so finally our final speaker is Mary Kate and you for us and Mary you've got a presentation as well so head over to you thanks thanks Martin thank you all for taking the time to sit with us and listen to our views on force and finance very excited to see such a good crowd this year at the event so I'm with new for us I think we represent a little bit of a different perspective and type of actor at this year's event so I just wanted to take a little bit of back time to explain who we are and how we work in the forest sector but what I'd like to talk to you about today is how is sustainable forestry investors we have deployed capital today how we currently work and how we're also looking at mechanisms to both catalyze more capital into sustainable forestry as well as to create and extend the impacts that we can create by how we work in the region on to the next slide please and the next one sorry that's one we have to have so new for us is a sustainable forestry investment manager also investing in rural land and conservation investments we were established in 2005 in Australia so we now have a 12-year track record during which we built up a portfolio of more than 900,000 hectares of forest and land as well as a few sawmills in Australia and New Zealand the way we operate is with regional investment strategies that are targeting very specific opportunities that we match with investor capital from the broader market to invest into forestry now why are they regional strategies and how are we matching by that I mean there are different investor requirements when they're looking to place their capital when it comes to the forest sector you're going to get a different return if you invest in the US versus Brazil versus Australia versus Indonesia so our investment strategies are segmented by geography where we can have very focused teams that are operating origination strategies and actively managing assets in those local markets as a company in New Forest is largest in Australia New Zealand where we've got around 500,000 hectares of FSC certified plantations to get to Martin's earlier question of what would you do with a billion dollars of Red Plus money I think absolutely even just the four of us with some extra good support in the room could put that capital to work in three four years if you gave us the broad mandate to do that and I think particularly when you ask that question my mind went straight to don't forget sustainable forest management there's quite a lot of talk of the side of the conservation the carbon side avoided deforestation but if we open Red Plus and really look at that broader mandate to improve the sustainable forest management of the world's forests while also engaging in things like reforestation as well as forest conservation a billion dollars is easily deployable and my colleagues back in Sydney right now have a spreadsheet of 1.2 billion dollars of investable deals in Southeast Asia alone right now so it's completely doable it's just what are we looking to invest in at a 5% return no problem I think across that spectrum you'd be able to get production for us you get really cool restoration projects happening you get high-tech new mills creating great products going into the supply chain through the IFC work it'd be a really dynamic exciting thing so I want to put it out there that that's not a crazy question that's definitely an achievable question coming back to new for us how we're acting particularly in this region in 2012 we launched the tropical Asia forest fund which was 170 million dollar fund from institutional investors those are pension funds insurance reinsurance companies impact investors development banks that's who I mean by institutional investors particularly in our tropical Asia forest fund taff we've got nine investors three of those are northern European development banks to our fund funds operating in real asset space and for our pensions out of northern Europe so these are people looking for very commercial returns for commercial reasons as well as the development banks who have a mission to support sustainable development and emerging markets through that fund over four years we have not deployed a billion dollars we've spent more than a hundred million to invest in three assets which are sewn on this map here so this is our tap portfolio I thought I would just explain quickly what each of those three investments is that you understand how private forestry investors like us are actually looking to engage with Asia's forest sector our first investment in the region is up there in the blue in the sub a portion of Malaysia it's a Keisha forest industries where we're a majority owner alongside the Sephoto which is the Sabah Forestry Development Authority it's a government agency in Sabah that project is an occasion eucalyptus plantation generating both saw logs and pulp logs our investment in that asset is really looking to improve the quality of the forest to address legacy land tenure issues in the region it's a highly dense populated area with a long history of land claims and issues but also a great potential to improve the productivity of that forest make it a more valuable operation our second investment through TAF is a joint venture in Indonesia and West Kalimantan that's establishing a new rubber plantation that plantation is in a highly degraded landscape with neighbors oil palm a little bit of other pulp and paper but mostly oil palm looking to plant more than 30,000 hectares of rubber it's currently at about 18,000 hectares they're planting at a tremendous rate and really getting that ground cover back in the right places our third and final investment in TAF where an 85% shareholder with the government of law is a 15% in a company called Mekong timber plantations that plantation was previously established to be a pulp plantation by an overseas pulp and paper company they weren't able to get the scale they needed and the land they needed to justify their establishment of a pulp mill instead we've acquired that plantation and are transitioning it to higher value saw logs and looking to bring in local processing for more value add to happen in law in country rather than exporting a lower value product out of the country so that's a real quick sort of scope of three very different projects to insert tropical hardwoods one and rubber both for latex and timber go the next slide this is a photo of the West Kalimantan rubber project when I first went there in 2013 very barren very sad landscape and at that point there was about a thousand hectares of trees in the ground now there's 18,000 so we're able to see what capital is doing to really get reforestation product projects going into place taking what was a highly degraded landscape and bringing it back into production we as fund managers are very active in how we do this we're not investment managers sitting on Wall Street behind a Bloomberg terminal looking at spreadsheets all day although we do have a lot of spreadsheets they're mostly forestry models we're very on the ground and active in how we operate and that means our operations teams are at our assets at least once a month regularly in contact with the teams and providing a great deal of technical assistance and capacity development to those businesses to help them operate better and by better I mean in all facets from their financial management through to how they engage with stakeholders to how they manage their environmental risks and opportunities through the TAF portfolio you can see some of the impacts were anticipated to have over the life of the fund one of our bright line issues is a zero deforestation policy put forward by conserving all natural forests and promoting all high conservation values that's absolutely essential and something our investors require of us as well but also core to the fabric of how new forests operates at the end of the fun life we'll expect that there'll be 60,000 hectares of certified plantations within 150,000 gross hectares so that means there's 90,000 hectares of other things in those landscapes those are communities it's in Indonesia it's going to be a portion of Tanaman kahed upon livelihood plantings it's natural forest it's recovering secondary forest all of those things mixed in a broader landscape and alone already in that fund that's 30,000 hectares of reforestation principally coming from that rubber project now I'm really really proud of those impacts but I also know that is a drop in the bucket in terms of what we need to do so I'm talking this is a hundred million plus of work four years to invest it our big question as we look to continue in Asia is how can we do more go to the next slide so to do that we've been having a lot of conversation with the variety potential partners from foundations to development banks to intergovernmental agencies to creative financing initiatives and various folks in the room as well about how we can combine forces to create more impactful investments and to do more of it at a better pace so that we don't take four years to invest a hundred million dollars compared to gosh and eight years in Australia New Zealand we've been able to deploy two billion that's a really big disparity and so we really know that we need to put the put our foot on the gas a little bit and really get on the opportunity that we see here in Asia so returning to blended finance which is a term that's come up a few times I think it was Michael defined it so I don't have to really but strategic use of development capital alongside private capital often these days people are specifically linking it to trying to achieve the sustainable development goals so I put into the colored boxes here some of the different ways we've looked at and are considering and progressing with using blended finance to do more in our forestry investment program going forward in Asia one opportunity it's a bit more on the traditional side of how we think about things is technical assistance or a grant facility which can help investors overcome some of the barriers to investing sustainably in Asian Pacific forests there's the pay for performance model which we heard a little bit about yesterday you know examples like Norway looking to make red plus payments for performance there are others who are looking to do that potentially from the CSR type perspective as Gabe mentioned there's also a unique role for first lots risk capital which we've seen some of the international funding agencies provide as well which gives investors comfort that if they invest in something a little riskier they're not going to be the first ones to lose their money because there's going to be another type of capital that was willing to accept that risk because it was worth that worth it to them to achieve the impact they were going to another one is anchor capital just giving people the confidence that hey this thing is investable and I'm a big company or a big investor and I believe in this that can encourage other people to come in and a critical role that development capital can play as well now the one that new force is really excited about for Asian moving forward we're developing a model that we were calling on blended equity and performance investment for our next fund we're looking at having basically two tranches and I apologize I didn't put this into the the structure of the power point because I wasn't sure how detailed we get but this has been a really good detail conversation so far where we'll have two types of capital coming in one from impact investors coming into an impact tranche and what we're calling a mainstream tranche that'll be all those commercial investors that we really want to encourage to come in by combining those two types of interests you can keep your fund at the same risk return level overall while having segmented groups some that are willing to take a higher risk potentially accept a lower return as well as those who want lower risk for a steadier return now the way we'll do it with these guys we've talked about basically as much impact as we achieve the greater our impact the lower the impact investors return will be if we don't achieve certain additional impacts if we don't do anything different than we did in our first fund everybody gets the same return but the more climate mitigation we provide the better job quality provide the more biodiversity we protect those impact investors will accept impact and combine with finance for their return now I think this is the first time we're hearing this type of model put together for for Asian forestry we are having a lot of consultation both with current and prospective investors about it but to us it's very exciting because we think it's going to make it easier to get more new investors into emerging markets forestry we think it's going to make more deals investable we think it's going to extend the ability of our fund to create impact and really just be the next sort of step change and getting broader impact happening at a faster pace in Southeast Asia if you go to the next slide I haven't ended with the standard thank you this is the sunset over our Indonesian plantation I think it's just a beautiful landscape and if you look at you can see there's all the sorts of different elements of that landscape there's a hcv area in the background you've got the foreground is restoration of what was a sort of burned over grassland prior and I think it's just emblematic of what we're trying to do to bring landscapes back into production as we're moving forward we're really looking to bring private finance into truly high impact sustainable forestry investments but I want to emphasize that not all of our investors in fact nearly none of our investors would come and say I'm an impact investor but most investors today want to manage their environmental and social risk and they want responsible investments and so that's where providers like new forest can come in as a fund manager work with companies and governments on the ground and communities who have the access rights and help connect them to the capital that can realize the development plans that align with local national objectives for things like climate biodiversity and community development I want to underscore it's completely important that you get a commercial return that is attractive but that there's a whole bundle of different types of investors out there who are each seeking something slightly different so the true promise about this blending is that you can combine people who have different objectives into a single fund coming together and everybody gets back out of it what they need that's what we're looking forward to going forward okay thanks very much and I think I'm just just one important point which we did pick up on yesterday but I think you've sort of echoed it is that a number of the NDCs do talk about maintaining a high degree of forest cover and one way of doing that is basically building sustainable timber industry and that can also then feed into a domestic scheme of building more buildings out of timber as well so there's a good cycle there to talk about yeah absolutely um it was one thing I wasn't sure if I was going to get into but a lot of times in the investment world we hear about forestry as a problem or risk people are afraid of deforestation they're afraid of a social conflict all these things that rightly need a lot of attention to manage but my personal mission is to put forest for it as a solution their climate solution their sustainable development solution their building and material solution and more and more there's um this growing bioeconomy what we call it where it's not just even you know building houses out of timber it's the clothes you wear I guarantee you someone in here is wearing a shirt made out of trees which is kind of bizarre there's also new biomaterials innovation that's happening through wood fiber opens up a whole world that timber products and other fibers can provide while we move away from fossil fuels to give us things like polyesters and plastics so that whole substitution side is very important and there's a great stat I think from WWF that by 2050 we're going to need three times as much wood every year from the world so that's what we need in 2050 today it's what 2018 we need to think now about where that wood is coming from that means planting more forest it means making forest more productive and how they're managed as well as conserving those that are able to be conserved and restored over time okay well thanks very much um I would open up for questions that we're actually running quite a bit behind so I'm gonna in the panel here and head over to Juan who's going to do the next panel so you can just thank our panelists