 recordings are available. So if you missed a previous one, they are available through the NCAR UCAR drive. And if you are external to the NCAR UCAR drive, please let me know and we'll find a way to make sure that you have access to those recordings. Okay. With that, I'm going to stop screen sharing and hand this over to Scott. Good morning, everyone. And thanks, Mariana. For those of you who don't know me, I'm Scott Landolf. I'm the Advanced Study Program Science Advisor. But a little bit more in my background, I've been with NCAR for over 26 years now. So I've been through the whole budget proposal process many, many times. And my goal today is really to walk all of you through how to develop a budget, things that you need to consider when you're putting in your budget and how to avoid some of the more common pitfalls associated with potentially not getting enough money to fund your project. I will say outside of putting together your proposal and putting something together that makes sense, that's concise, probably the budget is one of the most critical things in that entire process. Because if you go through, you do everything, you don't budget enough money, you're going to get yourself into a situation where you're going to run out of money before you can achieve all of what you said you were going to do in your proposal. So I want to first, as Mariana said, make sure that all of you have the budget template that she sent out in that email. Feel free to pull it up. You can walk through, put your own numbers in as I'm walking you through all of this to see how things change. But really, again, the goal of this is to talk through everything that you're going to need to consider when you put the budget together because there are a lot of things and it's not just I want to buy this instrument and I'm going to put this much time for this person on my budget. There's there's a lot more that goes through that through that process. So I'm going to share my screen and I want to start with the budget, the example budget template itself. Want to make sure everybody can see that. Looks good. Excellent. Okay, so this budget template is actually the template that we use in the research applications laboratory. It looks fairly big, somewhat intimidating, but once you learn how to go through this, you can put some numbers in here fairly quickly and get a pretty rough idea of what it is that you're looking at in terms of for the given cost of people and equipment and other things. What what am I looking at potentially for my base budget and is it going to fit within my proposal for where I'm submitting my proposal to? The upper left, a lot of this information here. Could you zoom in probably maybe like you're at a hundreds and maybe 150 would be good? Yeah, let me try that. I want to make sure everybody can see this okay. Is that a little better? No. 170. I think it's not scaling so like in the bottom right of your the Excel screen which has the slider bar and it's showing that still at 100. That's interesting. I wonder, let me, it's probably, let me do this. Let me just share my whole screen and then things might scale a little bit better. Thank you for pointing that out Mariana. That was not what I wanted to do. Hang on just a second. Okay, here we go. Is that a little bit easier to see and let me see if I can scale it up a little bit more even. It is showing that it's scaled but it might be a Google issue where it's like it's lagging with what's been scaled. That is entirely possible. So I don't know what would be the best option on this. Let me just ask does everybody have the budget template open because I can walk you through the different cells. It may be easier to do that and you can see how all of the different things are changing. I could also just screen share the template and then you tell me what buttons to push to if that would work. Yeah, we can definitely try that also. Okay. Let me go ahead and do that then. Thank you for bearing with us everyone. Excellent. Google Meade seems to like you better than me. All right. I will just drive and you tell me where to go. Perfect. That sounds good. So the upper left hand corner is really more of just information for any of the admin staff. So we would just put what the proposal title is in there, the funding source. In this case, this would be an example for proposing funding from the FAA, but you could put NSF in there. You could put DOE. You could put anybody. Principal investigators, you would probably list yourself. Anybody else within your organization that is also going to be a PI? You can list up there. Again, the information in this particular box isn't going to have much bearing on the rest of your template. It's more information for the administrators. Time frame will give them the period of performance. So they know is this a single year? Is this a multi-year type of project? NCAR itself will generate a proposal number in their system, which you can then put in there next to the NCAR proposal number. And then of course, date generated is just the date you put this together if you want to keep track of multiple budget templates as you evolve your budgets for your proposal. So, Mariana, what I'm going to have you do is actually scroll down a little bit more. We're going to pass this first section because a lot of what's in there tends to populate itself as you put other stuff in. Keep going down a little bit further to the employee name section here. So I'm going to start with this section because this section is going to allow you to start putting people in and hours for those people, the number of hours you think that they're going to work on your particular project. So right now, we don't have any people in there. And Mariana, what I'm going to have you do is down in the lower left on the tab for the spreadsheet where it says staff listing. If you click on that, we have in here a bunch of generic job categories. And ideally, in your case, and when you're putting a budget proposal together, you would have actual people listed in here with their actual salary so that you can more appropriately budget and know exactly how much that given person is going to cost you for however many hours that you put into that proposal. But for now, we're going to stick with these these general categories and the so you see the name of the different groups of categories there. There's the administrators, associate scientists, there's project scientists, software engineers, and then the salary program or the salary associated with each one of those levels. And those salaries are about midpoint for each of those different levels. So let's say for your given project, you are obviously going to want to cover some of your time. So if you look for a project scientist one there on row 16, we're going to select that first cell that a 16 cell, we'll do a control C, we're going to copy that. And then we're going to go to the example budget, and we're going to paste it there into a 63. And you notice when you do that, the project scientist one pops in there, but also the hourly rate for that project scientist also pops into column B. So now we know what the hourly rates associated with that that project scientist one is. All right, so let's say that this project scientist one is you. And let's say that you want to fund yourself entirely on this project. So you can say that there's probably roughly about 1400 hours in a given year that a person is going to be able to spend on a project, assuming that they are working full time. So we'll go ahead and put 1440 hours in here under task one. And we're going to hit enter. And you notice that now there is next to the hours, a new number that has popped up. That number 206,463 is essentially what the cost for that employee is to the organization. Now, if you go back to the staff listing tab, per second, Mariana, you notice in the salary range, it says 108,519, which is a significantly different number than the one that shows up next to the hours under the example budget. What's happened here is this template has automatically gone through and applied all of the overhead costs associated with that employee. So overhead being costs for benefits, costs for things like vacation, your healthcare costs to cover administrative staff, like the admins, the admin assistants, who generally don't get tied to a specific proposal. But obviously, there has to be money there for them to support projects, money to cover operating costs around NCAR, electricity, those sorts of things. All of that goes into the overhead, which then gets applied to the amount that gets put in here. So on average, a project scientist one, what we would say fully loaded, meaning full benefits covering everything costs the organization about $200,000 a year. So, okay, we know now, if you're putting yourself in for that amount, that whatever you're applying to, you need to make sure that they're going to be able to cover at least $200,000 as part of your budget. Let's just add a few more people in here just to give you an idea of some other people and costs associated with those people that may be reasonable that we're going to want to bring on to your project. So let's say, let's grab a software engineer or programmer two, which is row 25. We'll copy and paste them into the templates. And then let's grab let's say let's grab an associate scientist three, and copy and paste them over as well. And we'll start with these ones. So let's say for a software engineer, you're going to need somebody to write some code for you. You estimate it's probably going to take them about a month of their time. So 40 hours a week means that you're going to want to put 160 hours in for them. And then your associate scientists three, they're going to help you with a lot of support work. Let's say you're estimating maybe 800 hours of their time throughout the course of the year. So right there, off the top, we're looking at a little over 300k, just in salary costs for the different employees and stuff that are going to be working on this project. Let's say that you decide that you would like to also have a student assistant, you're going to bring in an undergraduate student. They actually are going to go in a different section of this budget template. So the section that we're working in right now is really for your normal employees. These are the employees that get all of the benefits, the regular paid time off, that sort of thing. Students are more of an hourly employee. Generally, they don't tend to get a lot of the benefits. They may not get health care. But there is some overhead associated with them. It's just at a much lower level. So Mariana, if you want to scroll down a little bit more, there's the casual name in row 105. This is where we're going to put student assistance or anybody who isn't a regular employee. So if we go over to the staff listing and scroll down a little bit, I think there are some students in here, yeah, student assistant to row 218. So we'll copy that and paste that in there. So a student assistant to is about 1750 an hour. Let's say you anticipate using them for a week for six months. So let's say put down 400 hours, let's say roughly for them. And then if you scroll up a little bit, you'll see that the budget amount went up a little bit, not nearly as much as it did with the other employees. So there is some overhead costs associated with them, but not to the level of other employees. So it's important to know when you're budgeting for different people, are they a full time employee? Are they getting all of the benefits? Or are they more of a casual employee, as we would call them, that are just paid an hourly wage, because they will go into two different spots because they accrued different overhead rates. So that's everything associated with your actual staff, the people that you want to put in on the budget templates. So Marianne, if you want to scroll back up, I want to walk through some of the other cells and stuff that appear closer to the top and explain a little bit more about what these are, especially now that we've got some numbers and stuff filling in on this template. So those those rows 18 through 23, these are the rows where all of the that overhead, the benefits and everything automatically are being calculated. So in addition to your salary, these are the additional amounts associated with that overhead that's getting applied to your your full budget amount. So there's really not much that you need to do in those sections because everything is already preset for you. Row 24, I want to talk about a little bit materials and supplies. So there are a couple of things to be aware of, especially if you're looking at having to purchase computers, maybe equipment, various different things to support your project, you're looking at doing a field project, you're going to need to buy some sensors. Materials and supplies basically cover everything that is going to be less than $5,000. The $5,000 mark is an important one to understand because if you buy something for more than $5,000, it's considered an asset to the organization. Assets do not accrue any type of overhead on top of them. So if you put in, let's say you want to get a sensor that's $7,000, that means you do not have to pay any overhead on the purchase of that $7,000 instrument. If it's less than $5,000, let's say you have an instrument that's $2,500, that would be considered materials and supplies that is going to accrue about 56% overhead on that cost. So anything materials and supplies related you would want to go and put in here. So common materials and supplies that you may need to put in here. Laptop computers that do not cost $5,000 would be considered a material and supply. Other things for the projects, like I said, sensors that cost less than $5,000 would be considered materials and supplies. If you need to purchase a printer, maybe a 3D printer for something you're doing. If that is less than $5,000, that's going to be materials and supplies. So looking at the individual items, you can have a material and supply amount that say $10,000, but it's composed of a bunch of different components that by themselves are each less than $5,000. So what happens if we have something greater than $5,000? Marianna, scroll down just a little bit more. Keep going a little bit more right there. Row 46, equipment. That is where you would put in the equipment costs. So anything greater than $5,000 will go into that equipment value right there. So you would put it in D46. So let's just say you have a $7,000 computer, a server or something that you need to purchase. So under D46, let's put $7,000 in there. And you will notice that the grand total there actually jumped by an even $7,000 amount because there was no overhead applied to any of that. Now there is one other thing to be aware of when talking about materials and supplies. Let's say you want to buy a laptop and you want to buy a monitor that goes along with it and an external hard drive as a backup to your computer. Each of those individual components is less than $5,000, but their combined value is going to be greater than $5,000. You can put that together as an asset as long as those things will always remain together. So you buy this laptop, you're always going to be using this laptop with the monitor and with that hard drive, you can make that argument to UCAR saying, this should be considered equipment because it's all being pieced together as one thing. And in that case, then instead of claiming that as materials and supplies, you can put that under your equipment costs. The property office is a great office. Betsy Hulsing heads that up, Chris Neuchon is also a great resource. But each division also has a property representative that you can go to and ask these questions to and say, hey, I'm piecing these things together. I'm building or I have this sensing system that requires three sensors, but they're always going to be together. They're always going to be going to this common computer. I would like to tie those together as an asset. They will go back, they'll make sure you can do that and come back to you and say, yes, you can go ahead and put that in your budget as an asset. So keep that in mind when you're dealing with materials and supplies, there are ways to get materials and supplies put into equipment, as long as whatever you tie together always remains together throughout the course of however long you have those things. If the laptop breaks, you can request a dismantle and then use the other components separately. Okay, let's scroll back up a little bit more, Mariana. I'll talk about a few of these other sections. You'll notice that there's a software row. So if there's any software that you need to purchase, you can put that information in there, whatever the cost of the software is, just simply fill that out in D 25. Interest is not something we typically deal with. But if for some reason, there's something that's going to require an interest payment, you would put that in there. That's pretty uncommon. I've never personally encountered that in any of the stuff that I've done. Row 27 purchase services. This would be a row where if you are building an instrument, and you're going to need machine shop time, you would want to get an estimate from the machine shop, that's going to be a service that you're purchasing from them, that cost goes into this particular row here. Row 28. Very important one. This one almost always has some numbers associated with it. Publications. Where are you going to publish your final research? What journal? Get a cost estimate for what it typically costs to publish in that journal. And you're going to put that information in under the publications cost there. rows 29 through 38. If you have multiple purchase services from multiple different organizations, you can you've got 10 options there, you can put each of the individual ones in. If you're building an instrument, and you require different shops and stuff to be involved, put that information in on those different lines. rows 39 and rows 40 travel. You're probably going to be traveling for conferences. Maybe you're going to be participating in a field campaign. You would need to go through and come up with your estimates for domestic travel. And if you're doing anything international, come up with your estimates for international travel. All of those values will go into rows 39 and rows 40 under column D. So that's that kind of gives you a breakdown of all of the things that you would need to think about in terms of what you're putting into this actual budget. So let's just throw a few more values in here under materials and supplies. Let's say you've got $4,500 worth of materials and supplies. Let's say you need to buy $500 worth of software for a special program that you're going to be using. Let's say there's not really any purchase services, but for publications, let's say you plan to put two public publications out. You want to publish in an AMS journal, which is probably about $2,000 to $2,500. Let's say $5,000 for two publications. And then let's go down to travel. Let's say it's only for something here in the US, you plan to want to go to AMS to present on some of your work. For those of you who have been doing budgets and stuff lately, you've seen the AMS costs about $3,000. So let's put $3,000 in for domestic travel there. And then let's scroll down a little bit more. Let's see. Oh, and there's one other thing I forgot to mention. Row 49. If you plan to use any type of super computer time here at NCAR, this is the row that you would put in the estimated costs for running your jobs and stuff on the supercomputer. So that also was built in there and it'll do the automatic calculations and stuff for you on that as well. Everything else below that again, it gets auto filled. You don't really have to worry about that. But now you can look at our grand total column. And you can see that for everything that we have put in, for the time of all of those people, for the equipment for the materials and supplies and for the travel, this budget comes out to be about $377,628. Now, this is for we're going to assume that this is for one year. Many of you are putting in proposals for multi years. There are other budget templates and stuff that each of the divisions have where you can put in by year. And one thing, as all of you have probably noticed, usually what happens is at one point throughout the course of the year, we have reviews that come around, you get a promotion. So you can't assume that your salary is going to remain static throughout the entire two, three, five year budgeting period. So in the templates that break these things out by year, usually they assume a 4% increase in salaries and stuff year to year. So you can budget each one of those years and get a fairly accurate estimate of what salaries are going to be as you move forward into the future to come up with your final budget. So this is kind of a big quick and dirty rundown of how to go through these different things. I know I went through this a little bit fast. But there is one thing that I want to impress upon you and that is don't sell yourself short on some of these estimates materials and supplies. You can usually come up with pretty good estimates equipment. Usually you have to go get a quote or what it is that you want to buy and put that in as the actual estimated cost. But when it comes to salaries, I usually suggest, put down what you think you're going to need and pad it a little bit, don't pad it a lot, but pad it enough that if something happens, if somebody goes out sick, you need to bring somebody else onto the project, somebody leaves. So you need to pick up a new person who may cost a little bit more, make sure you account for that, put some additional hours in for some of the other people so that you have that flexibility in your schedule to be able to adjust in case something happens over the course of your project. That will help you avoid the pitfall of running out of money before you get to the end of your project and not being able to deliver on what you said you were going to. Let's see in terms of the budget justification. So that is the other component that goes along with all of this. We at NCAR are a little spoiled because the budget justification will oftentimes get put together by our administrative staff. They may come to you for things like having to write up what do you need? Why are you traveling? What are you traveling for? So there's a travel section in your budget justification. There'll be an equipment and materials and supplies, budget justification, and then there'll be a salaries budget justification component. Again, the admin staff generally take care of all the salaries because they can look at this and all you would need to do is state specifically what is each one of those job categories going to specifically be doing budget justifications are not long. There may be two pages at the most just be concise, simply states under equipment and purchasing this sensor at this cost to serve this purpose on the project. Straightforward simple doesn't need a lot of explanation because chances are in the rest of your proposal, you've already explained and gotten into detail why it is that you need that specific sensor and what its purpose is going to be. So I'm going to stop there. I will take any questions you have. Like I said, I know we kind of went through this a little bit quickly, but I want I want you to have this budget template so that you can go through and kind of plug your own numbers in, get an idea of what you're looking at for some of the the different numbers and how quickly your budget can balloon as you start putting different categories. Let's see, looks like first question. Can you clarify you got to 1440 hours for the project scientist? Is that a standard number for a year of work? 52 times 40? Yeah, what is what is 52 times 40 come out to be the type of I had 40 is roughly 2080 hours, but you have to consider that there's holidays that are in there. There's also you're probably not going to work without taking any PTO as part of that. So when you start factoring those things in, it really starts bringing those those hours down. So we we usually estimate 1400 to 1450, I think on average for a lot of that. What is the best way to estimate salary for employees that haven't been hired yet? Also an excellent question. In that particular case, I think the this budget template that I've given you, looking at those individual different job categories, those numbers that are in there are an average value for those different categories. So you can simply pull those actual numbers out, put them in your budget templates and budget to those us with the idea that those numbers are probably going to be on the slightly high end of things. And when you actually bring those employees in, they're going to come in at a slightly lower value. So you've already built in a little bit of padding on your estimates for employees that you haven't hired yet. Did you develop the spreadsheet? Some sort of standard to use. This is the standard template that we actually use in the research applications lab. So yes, it's, you can use it as an estimate. It's valid for right now. But once the new overhead estimates and stuff come out from UCAR, then it becomes a little bit antiquated, and you need to figure out what those new values are, put those into the spreadsheet, and then it kind of updates things. So it's good for estimating what your final budget is going to be. You may need to do a little bit of wiggling when you get it into the final form. When you go through the actual proposal process with contracts, because sometimes if things change, depending on when you put your proposal in and when your proposal start date is, you may cross multiple different years where costs are going to change, and you may need to change things a little bit. But this template should get you very close to what your final amount is going to be. Do you have to use the amounts budgeted for the specific purpose listed? If you don't use all budget for salary, can you use leftover for travel? Yes. So in many cases, you go through, you do the budget. What you're putting forth in your proposal is your best guess, your best estimate for what you think you're going to be spending in the different categories. Does that ever work out? Almost never. Inevitably, something comes up, COVID comes up, you can't travel anymore. So usually those funds then get freed up and you can use those in place of salary instead. So some funding institutes may be a little bit more picky on that, some of them may require that those funds get budgeted specifically for travel and only for travel. And sometimes you can reach out to them and say, hey, we're not going to be able to do this travel, but we'd really like to be able to use it for XYZ instead. And that will allow you to what we call reprogram those costs over to salary instead of using them for travel. So there is a lot of flexibility for the most part in that but it depends on the funding organization and usually you can ask them and most of them tend to be willing to work with you. Would you put abstract fees for conferences and travel or publications? Also a good question. Generally, I would put the abstract fees in as part of travel, because it kind of falls out of going to the conference requires you to submit an abstract which means there's going to be a fee associated with that but you're traveling to that conference. So I would just wrap it in under travel and not necessarily under publications. Usually if you car sees that you've put in $200 for a publication, they're going to come back and say, did you forget a zero on the end of that for your publication? So it's easier just to wrap that into travel and it's fine to point there. How do you estimate how many hours you would spend on any given project? And what's your approach for ballparking that? This is probably the thing that people struggle with the most is figuring out how many hours you're going to spend. If you plan to fund yourself entirely on that project, you can figure out what your hours were given year would be and put that in there and that's not so much of a problem. But if you want to bring a software engineer on or something like that, usually have a conversation with the people that you want to bring on and say, all right, here's what I have lined out for you. This is what I want you to do. You have an idea of how much of your time it's going to take to do that sort of thing. And I'll tell you, that's probably three weeks of my time. So you can go in and put 120 hours in for them for that given project. As you start doing more of these, you start getting a better idea of how much it's going to cost for your staff to work on various different projects. And you don't have to go to them as much anymore and ask them for that sort of thing. But generally speaking, usually having conversations with the people that you want to bring on your project and getting a feel from them what they think it's going to take is probably the best way to do that. And again, I would say whatever hours they give you, maybe tack on an extra week just in case to pad that a little bit to make sure that you have enough money to cover whatever it is that that they're going to be working on. What happens if you budget money for supplies and that resource is no longer available, like the helium shortage? That is also an excellent question, because we have certainly encountered those sorts of things before. So it probably gets into a bigger issue of is that shortage going to have major impacts on your project, in which case you may need to go back to the sponsor and say, we really wanted to do this, but we can't get ahold of any helium to be able to do this. So we need to figure out, can we do the project without doing that? Or is there some other substitute that we can potentially use, which maybe is going to cost a little bit more that we hadn't anticipated, in which case, maybe you need to put in a supplementary request for more funds to be able to support that. In some cases, if it's not a big deal, you think you can get that information without requiring that it's not a critical component for your project. Again, you can potentially take that money and put it over towards salaries for staff. But if it gets you into a bit of a bind, it is having impacts on your projects. My recommendation would be to reach out to your sponsor, tell them what's going on, have that conversation with them, see if they have any suggestions and see if you can figure out what the path forward is. The one thing that I will also highly recommend to all of you is don't be afraid to reach out to sponsors, especially when you get into some of these situations. I've seen situations in the past where people have been hesitant to want to reach out to sponsors when they encounter problems. And then it kind of snowballs into a bigger and bigger issue to the point where when the sponsor does find out there's major implications for the project and if people had reached out earlier, it could have been resolved fairly easily and things could have moved forward. So don't hesitate to talk to sponsors and stuff if you get into some of these situations. And again, oftentimes if it's not a big deal, you can reprogram that money over to salaries or ask them if you can do something else. Are there instances where the funding agency has a cap on the overhead rate? And if so, how does NCAR handle that? Yes, that definitely will happen with some funding agencies where they say we're only going to pay a certain amount of overhead. There are ways to work through UCAR on that. You can get exemptions. This comes through working with your admin in your division who will go back contact contracts and say, All right, we've got this group that's only willing to pay XYZ amount on overhead for this given project. I have encountered that once on a proposal where I put in where they said, Yeah, we understand your overhead rates, but we're only going to cover 25% of that. So we've had to go back and usually depending on the dollar amount, UCAR will allow you to put an exemption in for that. So there are ways to get exemptions and your administrator will know how to do that. Based on your experience, do you have a percentage by which you try to overestimate the cost to make sure you don't run out of funding? Also a good question. I would say in many cases, depending on your funding source, some proposals that you're going to put in, they will actually tell you we are giving million dollar rewards. So you already know that your cap is going to be a million dollars. So you could start with that million dollar amount, put your values in and see how things come out. And if you're over, then you need to figure out, okay, what what different components of the proposal might I need to cut out and reduce staff time or reduce equipment cost, stuff like that to get it down to within that range. If it's an open proposal where there is no funding cap on that sort of thing, generally I would say for associate scientists, usually what I do is look at what their estimates are. If they're telling me that it's probably going to take a month to do something, I'll tack on one to two weeks of additional time just in case. Software engineers, most of them tend to be pretty good. Usually when I get estimates from them, maybe I tack on one week of extra funding for them. If it's a really in-depth project, maybe it's you're looking at three, four, five months of software engineering time, throw in an extra month on top of that just in case something comes up. It really comes down to it's almost like a jigsaw puzzle of sorts where you start putting numbers in, give it your best guess first, see what your final amount comes out to be. Are you within budget for what they're saying? Yes, great. If it's an open call, then start thinking through the process of if this person gets caught up and I can't have them right away and I have to pull somebody else in, how much more is it going to cost to bring that person in? That's another good way of looking at that and saying, okay, well, they're a more expensive person. Maybe they aren't as up-to-date as this other person was. They're going to require some extra time to get caught up to speed. I'm going to throw an extra month of funding in for them just in case. That's another good way to help out with estimates and padding things. You don't want to pad things so much that you end up going to NSF with like a three million dollar proposal for something that reviewers are going to look at and say, this is a $500,000 project. Keep that in mind, too. Make sure that the amount that you come up with seems reasonable for the work that you are actually proposing. I would also suggest reaching out to other scientists and stuff that have been through this process multiple times and have some conversations with them and say, hey, can you look at my budget? Does this seem to be reasonable for what it is that I'm doing in this proposal? They can also very quickly look at these things and say, yeah, that looks good. Maybe I would bump this area up a little bit. It seems like you've got too much in this area. Maybe reduce this down for this sort of thing. Excellent question. I don't think we have any other questions in that. So Scott, did you have any last closing remarks that you might want to share with us regarding budgets where we can seek help or such? The only other thing I'll say is if you get into a situation where you're being asked to put together a proposal and you want some help with the budget, don't hesitate to reach out to me. I'm happy to look things over. I can give you some input from my side as to what I think in terms of what you put in your budget. If there's things that you might be forgetting, if you're over, if you're under, if you need to make tweaks here and there, I'm more than happy to do that. I would say take some time with this template, go through, copy things in, see how it changes the numbers and really get an idea of what you're looking at for the costs of the various different categories. But yeah, probably I'll reiterate again that the most important thing when it comes to the budgets is make sure you don't sell yourself short and you have enough estimated to cover the cost of what it is that you're proposing to do. All right. Well, with that, we want to thank you for walking us through the budget template and sharing it with us most importantly that we have something that we can use while planning. And I'd want to thank everyone for joining us this morning. And as a reminder, we are in the holiday conference season. So take care of yourself, hydrate, get your sleep. The science will be there in the morning when you wake up. So with that, we will see you in the new year for our convergent science section. Thank you, everyone. Thanks, everyone.