 The first question is what are the research frontiers and advances in technology that enhance our ability to understand groundwater recharge and flow especially when in situ data are sparse or inaccessible. So let's try to keep our comments to the technology and to very specific you know one word or so that it's easy for us to capture and you know to say. The EM that Burke talked about was just amazing. So I'm just yeah. The political will is there you know to allow the campaigns that would be needed to be carried out. Along the lines of airborne I think as not thinking about small drones but like larger drone based measurements for all sorts of I mean temperature actually can be helpful for groundwater surface water interactions and then also for getting better measurements of ET that we can use to help close the water balance. So I do think that having you know if we would at despite the fact that we have that the aliasing problem having two pairs of satellite and you know knocking down the scale of the tall water start because closing the water balance is really powerful in terms of you know evaluate the different component and look at the driver and then being able to reduce uncertainty on. I mean I suspect that airborne EM can bring the footprint down by an auto magnitude compared to grays. But depend what you want to do so then again so I would agree but what is the scale of which you want to you know so for something if you are able to validate the region on a big scale so maybe in some places I mean if you want all the detail about what do we want to do you're right you know. Yeah I mean I think it's like a it's maybe not an either or thing I think a higher resolution grace is amazing but that still doesn't give you all the component like if we really want to understand systems we need you can close the water balance but like I think there's still uncertainty in a lot of those other terms and and having things like the structure to actually get at the properties and the structure of the system is still really valuable. So I would say yes to what you're saying which just as an and not as a like instead of. Yeah no I was I was a man. Like what are the steps so when I was looking at the glacier I'm like yeah you want a model or you want to know the source of that but you also want to you know but if we can you know define what is the you know how much is the contribution that's already so I agree with you. Eventually you want a full picture in the detail. As Manage-Op of a recharge expands I think that this would but especially if they can refine their the scale which they can do this I think that this would help manage those the systems much better. Can I can I follow up on the closing the water balance comments that forgive me if you said this already but you know we do a pretty good job monitoring precipitation from space but if we were better at getting the evapotranspiration and and we'll get you know runoff from SWAT and we can do okay ET with certain methods but there's no dedicated mission for that but when you have all those then you can better sort of close the water budget and estimate how much water is is recharging. So I mean the question is asking what is the advances in technology so I would just say one word increase resolution is that correct to say technology or is it too too done broad because I think the technology was presented by many people in this table INSAR, GRACE SWAT, Airborne EM and then in the morning you presented the magnetotellurics so we have a lot of technology words already I mean so we don't have to go to a new thing to do that but obviously that would be very easy to answer this question but I think it's what is standing in the way of using all of these Esther. So there's one thing we haven't covered at all is GPS and GPS is tricky because it's it's remote sensing but required a ground-based receiver so it's not an in situ data it's a remote sensing data and GPS has been shown in the past couple of years to be able to measure surface water changes the amount of snow cover and the amount of water surface water that is removed for example during the drought. So I think one of the technology advances that we have is that we now have this capability with ground deformation to track surface water with GPS and track how the surface water interact at the border of the aquifer to recharge aquifer system and then we can use INSAR to track ground deformation within the aquifer system. So we kind of have this dual ground deformation monitoring that don't look at the same part of the water system. So vegetation is only a problem if you're looking at places like the Amazonian forest at this point because we have the repeat satellite that I show with Cosmos Chima you have up to one day repeat so it's one four and eight days so you don't have a lot of the correlation with high repeat. If you look at the old satellite like ERS and Mvisa that had 35 days repeat it's a lot more difficult but the high repeat really helps. Yeah yeah and even since you know at 12 days we get we get yeah NYSAR is ALBAN NYSAR is a longer wavelength so there's going to be vegetation penetration I'm not expecting that even in Indonesia we will have the correlation with ALBAN. Yeah exactly. So I would say this is kind of along the lines of what Hari was saying with the airborne is you know I think one of the exciting things about the airborne is it gets at 3D essentially so it really gets at the subsurface property distributions which may not be important for certain parts of the water budget but but are for for a lot of questions about groundwater and so you know on my wish list would be being able to do more with remote sensing so you know the airborne EM it can like like Burke was saying can't really see the water you know it can see salt water it can see lithologic changes but thinking about more things that can be measured in 3D. Yeah and just to follow up on that maybe this is outside the scope of this question because it just says for getting at recharge and flow but water quality has come up several times and isotopes also for characterizing systems which I mean I think that's like a far front like all of this remote sensing you say okay but we can't say anything about quality really and so I don't know exactly what the frontier is of it but that seems like yeah like it'd be really cool if we could see any of that yeah no and also I remember this advances in technology does not restrict ourselves to remote sensing it could be in situ as well though it would be painfully difficult to do it in places where you know in California you can do anything or in Kansas but the question is if you're going to you know other countries where you may not have that permission for in situ it would be even more difficult okay well let's all do a request for any sort of water quality that's on my wish list. So Holly you're modeling studies this morning looking at the con you said there's almost no data for comparisons right so wouldn't this INSAR data be very useful in testing your models or do you think it there's too much non-uniqueness because you don't know storitivity very well to to be able to to use it to assess the their reliability or suit of your modeling. In the DACA case we had a decent amount of water level data but but I do think that it would be really interesting to try and use the INSAR data to to you know to as just another source of data for for validation or calibration and and it would be you know if in the the larger basin you know groundwater depletion in the Bangladesh in Bangladesh anyway isn't really a big deal so I don't we're saying I don't I don't know if that would work on a larger scale but certainly in other areas where maybe there is more of a depletion issue it could be a really good calibration target. So just a quick point that I want to make we talk about all these techniques and we're really we have to keep in mind that we're not measuring the same thing. Grace looks at gravity INSAR looks at deformation we don't really have a good way of integrating all these different measurements yet and I think that's that's something that we should think about in terms of frontier but I think it's like I think that because there's and so how do we you know how we measure the same things is the signal you know the signal they were monitoring is correlated with scale with spatial and time and then see how the different technique water the property you know and then how they are connected there related with the previous mention actually we I think we need a sort of a methodology to combine all the institute or remote sense data set all together I think the machine learning technology and data analysis techniques are very useful and will be very key components to combine all the available information together and based on built on that we can add more the airborne electromagnetic data set and we can keep building our information further. So can I ask you that that depends how much data we I mean you know for something you have a lot of data for something you don't and how much is like you can characterize the the signal with the machine learning because machine learning can be tricky you know in the sense that for some application I don't know for this because I mean anyway we can talk about. Yeah for example there's a web page called icerick.org they actually collecting all the soil data set and they compile soil data information as as the data becomes available so we can kind of try that kind of methodology. Okay so let's let's go to the second question we can always circle back how can we identify when and where aquifers are being recharged and the sources source of the water at what spatial and temporal scales can be meaningfully quantify the recharge process I mean this is a bit more specific and I think all the hints point to in situ trace exactly I thought I was going to say isotope so yes go ahead Matt. Yeah I agree with that but then also I think you know the models are key here right so if you can integrate data within a model you can come up with a you know first-order estimate of of recharge and and sources far from perfect but you know other than in situ I'm not I'm not sure we could do I don't think there's a remote sensing option here. But through the model and using the remote set it could be like it could be integrating it could be like you know validating and make sure you know to put some constraint on the different component then through the model you know so that you reduce uncertainty. I mean it is possible in a very sophisticated you know if let's say you're able to do airborne EM that can actually track a dynamic water table by doing several overflights from the mounting you can probably infer but again that's like a modeled inference. For the scale I think it's for temporal scale we obviously need to have continuous monitoring and that that we have in some places so it gets back to in situ versus remote sensing we don't have remote sensing continuously. When it gets to spatial scale that's usually where we kind of have a problem with in situ data we can't have high spatial coverage with in situ data so then that's something that we need to define what is the minimum scale that we can we need to cover to be able to understand our share and recharge. The trace of data is actually quite integrative in the sense that it's not going to be just localized if you have you know enough of it. The other problem with recharges is that it's not something that's especially constant even in the plane sacrofoils right that there are hot spots of recharge even in the high plane sacrofoil which is like you know pretty planes there's a lot of special variability you have hot spots and then when you go to the alpine I mean montane or alpine terrains you again you there's this delicate balance between where you get recharge zones and where you get ET. It's almost like when you come down an elevation gradient the point where you start getting a lot of ET you'll start missing recharge and a lot of the mountains mountain hydrology sites you find that that that's the sweet spot that is mid elevation where you get most recharge. So maybe that's something sorry maybe that's something that we should focus on as a community we want to define what is the spatial scale to estimate for certain environment the minimum spatial scale where we need to do monitoring. But so then I have that as I said I guess there's part like so what do we want to we want to understand all this you know what was scale we want to understand the thing like we may have a maybe a large uncertainty to understand this smaller scale but then the regional scale we can say we have an understanding of what is the contribution so there maybe it's important also to set you know some target to say eventually we want. Yeah it's very well the case that where you might be faced with the task of having to sample too much to resolve heterogeneity the large-scale assessments like grace come in handy because they give a more integrated picture. But also yeah exactly so I think like eventually maybe you want to but you know for some area maybe it's important enough to understand can we I don't know you were talking about the you know the Ganga Brahmaputra you know what is the contribution from the you know from the glaciers and then of course you want to understand better but if you already have it upper bound you can reduce uncertainty in that. So just to talk a little bit about the temporal skills I agree with what you guys are saying about the spatial skills so just putting out an answer and then people can tell me if you disagree but I feel like temporally that probably we are where we're the best where we have the best chance is understanding seasonal recharge and closing the water balance on an annual basis thinking about like seasonal snow mountain snowpack and things like that. I think we have maybe we're closer to having a chance for some event-based recharge and really highly monitored sites where I think that we're the furthest away is an understanding recharge that's happened in past climates from like really large recharge events or future recharge that might occur in outlier events that we haven't really observed very closely and that that can actually be in some places like the key to understanding recharge so that's I don't know that's my take on the temporal scales but other people can jump in. But maybe understanding and concerning better some of the present day scale you can put you know you can narrow down your range for the future. Yeah I think so but I mean I think that like so one we talk a lot about spatial scales of grace but I think that we should consider also that just the period of record for grace. No no but I'm not talking about grace actually now I'm just thinking you know if you have like let's say that you have a climate model they don't make assumption you know and you just saw any other range so if you can define or make some constraint of what are we seeing now you're going to narrow you know the solution space when you make projection. I mean I think so except for the fact that I think that we have a larger uncertainty about recharge events that are just not based on things that we've been observing very well so we have I mean there's work in like paleo hydrology and things like that that we could use but that's where I was saying like the period of record for grace or even if you look at you know the 1900s whatever where we have most of our observations from that's maybe not going to give us a very good understanding of our uncertainty or our variability especially with respect to large recharge events. So let me interject here so when I think of recharge it's one of the most difficult things to be observed you cannot observe recharge you know technical unless you put piezometers all along the soil column all the way to your aquifer so from what I have ran and what I have done recharge is best estimated by models and the input to models is precipitation so if you start wondering about over what amount of area you want to quantify recharge that becomes a limiting factor if it's a small area and you have very high resolution precipitation for a long time and you can model the ET and the surface runoff and you have a nice catchment you know it's all there then maybe it's possible to calculate the recharge as your residual in your water balance calculation maybe I'm not trying to say it's correct but there's no way of validating that recharge that's where I think that the problem with recharge I think is is probably the most difficult thing to measure approach is considered inferior to a tracer based approach because it's unreliable the uncertainty is too big when you try to do it just purely as a closure to the water budget but you could also there's you said you just talked about precipitation but there's also artificial recharge and you would be able to know what's going in potentially and you would want to make make make sure you're managing the use of where you're recharging and know you know you know you've got the mound in the ground or it's just something this would be really useful I think to the management agencies like it out in California to know where that water is at any particular time yeah for example in the in the central valley precipitation do not play a major role in recharge it's all directed by how much pumping is occurring in artificial recharge I just wanted to comment on your comment Laura you know in the southwestern us we know that there are lakes Pleistocene lakes and the water table has fluctuated by hundreds of meters between 20 000 years ago and today and it would be really cool to take a model like yours and and test these ideas about changes in temperature during the Pleistocene changes and recharge and see if you can reproduce make those lakes reappear there's still the uncertainty of how well do we know what the Pleistocene precip and recharge and temperatures were but it'd be a very neat test of your model to be able to reproduce these these pliers that or yeah or springs that that don't exist today if there's no comment to this so the fourth question we can probably use the same stuff which we had in the last breakout I do not know if you want to modify it or cut it down because we had a longer list than the other groups but the third question is what are the NGA resources which could help us to make meaningful progress in our understanding of recharge is there is there some things over here which are different from what we talked about in the last breakout for our questions on freshwater balance so I actually can ask a question about this so how do we want to frame this because something is like the things that we would lie from NGA you know and that maybe we'll never get you know and and so I'm just thinking about can you know is this what's the point for so it's like the point to say okay but this is what we would like guys to do you know and to give us you know in term of resources so can we just come up with a creative bush you know that resources that I can see we can want from them but I don't know if they're ever going to give us some data or some old things you know so maybe if I don't know how to say this maybe but if one can frame it in the report as something they in order for them to be able to achieve the level of modeling you know or then is going to be you know important or key that we you know has a community got an old or some observation of tool and so I have a way to leverage you know because at the end they want to try to put up a together model that it gives us a way to to provide a service now so as I said I think from my discussions with NGA the the story is that you know using this workshop report they want to launch something for the future now that something depends on how the workshop report looks and how much resources they have and so we should just list what we want rather than worry of what they can give us yeah so so the thing over here would be characterizing groundwater aquifers and understanding of recharge so what what is it which NGA can do which you know would help us could they provide some class of computer I mean yeah of course you mean that you want super computers from yeah super computers so that they're all there um correlating a university or entity can access to the computer and utilize it and if they can they can build up some storages like amazon clouding computing system something like that yeah that's pretty good yeah forget about it but they are so close you're not even if you go down to visit NGA in northern Virginia they won't even let you bring your cell phone into building okay so there's no chance they're gonna let you get on their supercomputing network zero okay I'm going to my answer to this question is my answer to this is okay first of all we don't know we don't know because what they have they don't tell us but you know I think maybe the one opportunity here is is to recommend that they provide opportunities for for partnerships or funding you know we can work with them towards a common goal you know I think that's where potentially you know they could have resources that we could we could leverage yeah like what Matt was saying in the morning there's only eight countries that share any groundwater data right and recharge is one of the subtler groundwater questions and you're asking whether it's possible to come up with an international part cooperative partnership of some sort where you know different areas of the world would share some kind of data or effort even like let's say there's a feel let's let's say there's a global campaign for improved constraints on recharge uh what would that activity involve might involve going out and doing depth profiles I mean age depth profiles in selected aquifers in several regions and then collecting all the data and putting it together to tell a global story is there a will for something like that can nga actually be a steward for an effort like that we said that we have to define a framework or those things we have funding to work on this so provide a funding for you know some collaborative research they move you know toward the same goal which means like they can pay us to look at the paleo and so do this I'll find a framework to combine the different data because then that's gonna eventually they're gonna get the benefit of that yeah I mean if we take the first step and write a white paper on you know what would it take for a global groundwater recharge characterization campaign we can do that part and if they can be a steward in getting the international partnership but I don't very much that they are the ones who would do it you know it might instead be something like international hydrological decade or some banner like that might be have a better chance at pulling off that kind of cooperation than a intelligence agency kind of in between what the supercomputing capability and the data thing we've talked about data integration and where we put all data data storage but also data accessibility maybe some kind of streaming where you can go in one place and search for every existing data set maybe that's something that they could provide having a platform where they store the data and they're allowed for searching the data searching what's available yeah so like I mean the data don't have necessarily to be a NGA for example it needs are the data are the property of the space agency but you have UNAFCO that has platforms where you can search for a certain area and find every single data set that exists and then it sends you to where the data are so the data don't have to be owned or to be located at NGA but you can have some kind of entity like that that manage data access okay so let me explain to you uh I mean most of you probably know this but NGA has what is called a BAA broad agency announcement and so it comes out once a year I think it comes out in April and they have many many programs in it and NGA is one of them and so the ones which the university people respond to is called NURI NGA university research initiative and so you write proposals like anything else and you know they review it and they send you back your your results but the thing is that their reviews are not as detailed and 10 pages in 10 point font as in NSF you know it's a short review saying that we reviewed your proposal we did not find it you know suitable but you know it's one way of seeing that so so obviously it is there are opportunities there are opportunities I do not know how it works when you get something funded and I think Matt knows at least first or second hand of how it works but the question really is that if you are chosen one if Holly's a chosen one for NGA proposal how can NGA or what kind of questions can she ask or put it for this kind of research for them to help you because we do not know once you get chosen what you do with NGA partnership that's between you and them so you see you see where I'm going with this I'm trying to see I mean I'm not trying to I think I don't want to be as harsh as Matt and say they will not give you a connection to the computer because they can always have a computer in a non-secure contractor location and give you access and put some data they can always do anything they want I mean you will not get access to the computer inside their office yes but you could get access to something somewhere else I mean they can always make things happen and they normally work with agencies other federal agencies so I hope you know that's a little bit makes it a little bit more transparent I guess so to go back to what Matt said a little bit though it's not I'm not sure that I really understand like the question is what are the resources they have that we could use and I just don't think I know what resources they have and earlier you said like when we're talking about data like well declassify more data so like if you want if they want us to be able to use and collaborate and write good proposals to them then like I would need to know what resources they have for me to leverage also what their goals are I mean if we think of water security as their broad overarching umbrella under which all of this is falling and an element of water security is looking at groundwater sustainability then you know what you can offer to them is that in order to get a better handle on water security and identify flash points before they arise they need to invest in whatever better characterization whatever we we lay out in this report let's step to the next one so people can take a break before the breakouts reassemble here so the last question is what are some examples of successful collaboration opportunities what are promising partnerships to help advance our understanding I know Jim and John gave us a lot of comments on that do we want to add something else to it above and beyond of Matt I would like to ask you does NASA have any or JPL for that matter have any connections with NGA to do these partnerships we've had one or two projects funded by NGA but it's you know it's really no different from from what other people do you sort of either you know someone and you talk to them or you apply to one of the for one of these these grants so I don't think there's any sort of example that we could use there I don't have anything to add here beyond but I thought we did a good job answering it in the last breakout and this is pretty similar so I don't have anything else to add there everybody's pretty tired at this point anybody online Carly which one that's fine advances in technology that enhance the participation of citizens to test and improve reliability and suitability of products across scales for example data analytics and synthesis techniques that's question one and then I think for question three there are 11 orders of magnitude in hydraulic conductivity in the soils a better understanding of soil complexity or technologies to simplify those complexities can be useful for cross-scale modeling and understanding of recharge slash discharge processes and that's from Francisco Munoz Arayola University of Nebraska anything else to add we are fashionably very early here Stephanie I think people are tired that's it we'll ask the academies to pay you over time okay then I think I'll just read out the answers which are up there or you can see the answers which are up there okay so let's just look at it research frontiers depend on scale of problem airborne geophysics two pairs of satellites ET remote sensing runoff from SWAT increased resolution GPS INSAR isotopes INSAR for Calval need a way to integrate all these different measurements machine learning tech and data analysis technology that can enhance the participation of citizens any more of comments over there grace yes yes grace that's grace yes yeah that's grace yeah yes okay okay yeah that that's okay and the second question was more loaded how can we identify when and where aquifers are being recharged and what are the spatial and temporal scales we can meaningfully quantify recharge processes in situ data are needed I think that was simple models are the key temporal scale continuous monitoring sees the understanding seasonal recharge smaller chance for event-based recharge low likelihood of past climates spatial scale in city does not provide high spatial coverage recharge isn't spatially constant and I would say you know good precipitation data is needed so and ET and ET yeah precipitation and ET yeah anything else in this number two question yeah artificial recharge yeah any kind of also any kind of artificial yeah absolutely surface but yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah I think recharge is the most difficult thing to figure out I mean yeah but you cannot close it on an event-based basis even if you have P and ET you know trying to do any region yeah oh yeah refresh and forth yeah it's yeah but that we did have in the last breakout we had a question about 3d characterization of the the you know of the underground so so we had the stratigraphy question so I guess that would answer it right in the last break yeah okay so the third question is what NGA resources that could help make meaningful progress in our understanding of recharge super computing capabilities provide opportunities for funding towards common goals steward international partnerships I think that's a really good one data storage accessibility utilize noory grants we need to know what kind of resources might be available yet keeping it giving back you know for publicity and soil complexity or or technology to simplify soil complexity I doubt if NGA would be able to do the last one or they could get access to to doing the last one techniques I think techniques sorry techniques techniques I guess until you know recently I never even heard of NGA so if they could do better advertising if they're interested in are they going to shoot us all after this first chef I mean they are fun mark one of the people told me that she thought NGA stood for national gallery of art so it is I didn't know that I didn't even know that I didn't know it stood for national gallery yes spatial scale again to improve understanding of managing artificial recharge okay awesome guys I think we can take a break and as soon as everybody comes back to the room we'll go through the last breakout and Stephanie did such a good job we request her to do it again you