 And we're off. I'm gonna share my screen. So thank you everyone for joining another edition of the Hyperalert Healthcare Special Interest Group. My name is Mike McCoy. I'm the chair of the group. First off, we wanna state that this is an open source working group and an open source special interest group. And so anything that is proprietary information information under NDA or information you or your employer would not want to disclose into a public forum, please refrain from doing so as well as we have a general rule here, be kind and nice to everyone. Please do not interrupt other people talking. There was, we want open thought, open appreciation and open courtesy to everyone. No ideas, dumb idea. In fact, any potential dumb idea could be a great startup idea in many types of ways. So please just have an open mind and thank you for joining in today's session. Today's pretty brief. It's just a general meeting, but I wanted to go over some things that are kind of new in the scope in our world within blockchain healthcare and decentralization. One, we're gonna go over health wallet apps or digital passport apps that are as of relevance and kind of compare and contrast in what we're seeing in the industry. I want to also go over the centralized clinical trials within DTRA and kind of give a little bit of background to that and understand from others that are more applicable and close to that. I'm sure Debbie Bucci and others who are a part of that consortia could give shine a bright light into that as well as I got reached out to a group of part of UT Austin. They are part of the Dell Medical School in particular who are doing research on blockchain in a number of different realms with a project called MetaLinkr. And so I wanted to forward this onto you all as they may be looking for more opportunities for people to help kind of open source their thoughts, their ideas and maybe something for everyone to join as well. And then I also am hoping to get people from either the Common Foundation or Common Pass to be able to present at our next presentation on the 17th. I am in contact with them pretty closely, I would say. And so I'd like to see if they can be able to give us a presentation on them as we're probably familiar with all the ID stuff. So questions on anything. Oh, also for event purposes, right now as we are speaking, there is actually an IEEE Blockchain and AI Ethics Day presentation, which is led by one of our friends, Sean Mannion and a bunch of others. I highly suggest once you are done this meeting please head over there. It's an interesting forum and one that I support and Erica is actually supporting that event right now. So that is why she can't be with us today. But yeah, thank you guys for all showing up. Any other questions? All right, we'll kick it off with one of our main agendas. So smart cards, smart health pass. I think this is one of the more innovative projects coming out into the digital identity space today. So an individual named Josh Mandel who does his day job is within Microsoft in particular, but smart health cards are not in particular a Microsoft product as I've, sorry, as to my knowledge, right? So Josh is being able to create this an open source software, a product that helps connect and verify credentials in the W3C, Evernon type of standard so that we can be able to have a conceptual model of via a mobile application, be able to verify whether you have a COVID-19 vaccination or not. And I thought this paper was one of great representation and kind of an overview for lay readers to be able to go into the details as well as towards the bottom here, there are specific did specifications that I thought were pretty informational as far as how someone could be able to do and installs from a long form signature to a short term signature of the different encryption algorithms and methods for that, as well as it's been my understanding that a lot of this is just wrapped into a JWT token in particular and that through the JWT you can be able to access that token in many different platforms and ways. I know there are other ways to be able to do this in kind of the digital ID realm, but I wanted to have this as an open forum for anyone especially Jim, Debbie, Ben, anyone else who'd like to step up and tell their experience with smart health cards in particular. And to me, what I've heard from the Common Foundation in particular is that they're referencing their architecture to do the Common Pass project with that broad consortium of many different folks including Epic Center, Microsoft, Salesforce, et cetera. I heard they were looking to model it off of this in particular, but I want to have better understanding. I'm sure we all want to have better understanding on what that truly is. So Jim, please take it away. Sure, and I will try and keep this in less than two minutes. Jim St. Clair, Chief Trust Officer for Lometic. Lometic is a health tech company owned by Providence Health Systems in Seattle. I am in my role leading the Lometic Exchange which is a consortium of participants to define verifiable credential use cases for health transactions all around decentralized patient identity and patient-centeredation with data management. By practical necessity for Providence Health Systems, our first use case is a COVID-19 vaccination credential which we're rolling out for Providence based on Epic this week. I'm also active in Good Health Pass which includes representatives from IATA, MasterCard, ID 2020, Evernim, myself, a couple others. We are, I guess I just described it as interfacing with VCI. We're not an active VCI participant but I am part of Josh's group on FireChat with regards to developing the smart wallets. I'm also a member of CCI which is free to join and also now falls under Brian's supervision in Linux Foundation. We kind of speak to it specifically from what we're doing. We have a credential. It is designed and based around interface with Epic, also takes into account other business processes such as the state immunization information system, IAS. Josh's approach is fine. It does rely on things like Fire Release 4 which hasn't been commercially promulgated yet. Also, they use the ION public did method which is an an side tree which is different from the Hyperledger Aries in the implementation structure. But it's a straightforward approach for doing some things. With our focus being on deployment for Providence as the ninth largest healthcare organization in the country in conjunction with other conversations we're having with MasterCard and others and that's got us very focused but we're happy to contribute to VCI and collaborate based on our experience so far really now. And if anybody has any questions or anything else I could offer good health passes moving along and they have a web page up right now a coming soon web page I can share you're in the chat real quick and they'll have some further announcements. What differentiates good health passes that we see ourselves as kind of a a broad umbrella organization across these various initiatives. So much of the focus is around vaccination credentials which is great. But if you consider the ecosystem of global travel and return to business I certainly foresee it as a combination of vaccine yes or no, serological test yes or no and current COVID tests PCR test yes or no and some combination they're in for affirming the safety for folks to travel again. And there has been less focus on the testing side and more focus on the vaccination side but from a travel perspective we see it including all of it. And if you could so good health pass is part of the lunatic exchange and that's the product that you are using for like a digital health pass if you want to or a digital health application. Great question. Yeah I'm sorry Mike I threw a lot out there all at once and I apologize but lunatic has the lunatic connect product the lunatic connect product is built on the area stack with verifiable credentials configured in Microsoft Azure and basically approved through Providence Health Systems from a HIPAA compliance architecture design standpoint. The exchange is a semi-autonomous group of participants identifying new use cases which we intend to develop into actual JSON schema for use of verifiable credentials as part of the connect and exchange process to foster and encourage and advocate for using verifiable credentials for patient engagement scenarios. And then we participate as a consortium in good health pass but good health pass isn't as an organization directly affiliated with us. Got it that's very helpful clarification. Thank you I threw a lot out there I apologize. And through VCI so I'm one part of the VCI meetings in some regard through because my day job is I'm a humana we're part of the Karen Alliance Karen Alliance as a member of VCI. And Ryan Howes and I are talking on Monday. Awesome, awesome. So is VCI looking to use the smart health cards initiative or is that something different that from your knowledge that they are basing their architecture on? No great question. So VCI as an organization is more or less committed to leveraging Josh's smart health cards wallet concept for the credential mechanism. Okay so they are looking to use smart health cards. Yeah and I mean as I said it is one technical approach it is one technical approach. It isn't the approach we happen to choose to make because we developed through Providence with their Epic system for specific Epic application and other use case requirements within the health system. But it is a viable approach that Josh has come up with. So if I were to share my screen then real quick and let's go into kind of their documentation where would you see aspects or features and everyone please chime in. Does anyone else have anything they wanna add to the smart card VCI or even the little medic stuff here now? Hello Jim. Hey dog. Good to see you again. You're too my friend. I had a good long talk with Mike Nash a while back about it for the rest of the group. I'm a leader group project becoming a company called Fireblocks. We are deeply engaged with Microsoft on verifiable credentials and the ID. Not sure how much I'm supposed to talk about it. We've got a non disclosure agreement but in as much as I presented it at the fire dev days I guess I can talk about it some. I got the approval to do that much anyway. But anyhow, it's a strange disconnect I'm having inside Microsoft. There is a, it's a big organization. Lots of people doing lots of good things. They've got such a commanding space in the active directory, this Microsoft identity platform generally in the MIP. Then there's another group that's heads down on ION which as those of you are following that through the diff project, SideTree is having some difficulties reaching workability. So we are also, our platform is also on, actually we're on fabric. We haven't moved to Aries yet. But we developed a series of proof of concepts of a lot of the same things that the medics doing with a focus more on consent management than health passes and the like. Everybody wants to talk to us about that. And we are, our answer is that there's so many other good people working on that problem. We believe that the fine grain consent management is the active ingredient in so many things to come. So we're using verifiable credentials to create actually three things. A, an identity, IDVC, a CVC or a consent verifiable credential and then an RBC or resource verifiable credentials so that you can actually move data around pivoting on the fact that the patient themselves generally is not the target of HIPAA, 21st century cures or set, et cetera. In other words, the method of our madness is that when the patient is in control of the flow of their identity, their consent and the actual protective health information itself, a large part of the regulatory friction just dissolves. So that's kind of our focus. When I talked to Mike Nash, I guess, gosh, it's been back in November, we were kind of comparing war stories about Microsoft and we said we were gonna get back together first of the year to see where we respectively stood. And Jim, maybe we can do that now. Maybe now's a good time for us to compare notes. Yeah, that couldn't have connected to dots better and obviously Mike's my boss. And since you brought up the topic, I actually have a meeting an hour from now with my product manager and another colleague of mine from the Human Colossus Foundation and we're both part of the Trust Over IP Foundation, another Linux foundation project for those who aren't familiar with it. And we're talking about his consent model and object capture overlays and what we've done with FHIR. I don't think it involves an NDA because Paul is very open about the work they're doing but I think it would be worth the discussion because I think first of all, I agree 100% with the way you summarized aspects of patient consent and privacy in the Cures Act. And we really are trying to turn things on their head by making it patient-centric, starting first with identification, authentication and then extending into consent. And what that consent model means for chain consent across data and conditional consent. So I'd love to compare notes with you kind of on your approach and I think that there is grounds for some sort of innovation lab here in the near future around these ideas, not because one technical approach is better than another but quite frankly to start changing the cultural thinking about how people manage their identity and consent. And philosophically, I think being involved with HCF which is based in Switzerland and GDPR and the Digital Services Act and the Data Governance Act, Europe is taking a radically different approach going forward in the future to data protection and data consent than the US has caught up to. But there's just no way in my opinion that activities that strong won't wash on our shores and now is the time to start thinking about that from an architectural standpoint. Well, yeah, you got CCPA as already in California which is basically Americanized GDPR. Right, so I have a question in particular with the kind of tech arc that I'm sure others have within the group as well and some of the people have messaged me as well. When someone doesn't have a smart mobile device, there's talk of being able to use a QR code then either attach it to a physical device like an NFC or an ID card, right? So they can be able to hold that and then go back to the issuer to then register and say, hey, I actually have the credentials to then verify me and then moving forward or it's taking some type of biometric and storing that within the issuer. In this method, I liked the smart health cards format of being able to scan that QR code and then there's other companies and we had a presenter two weeks ago say they're doing it through this card called TANJUM and anyone can create a TANJUM like card where you have a physical identification card that then can bring you to many different places. I wanted to hear some of your take on that from anybody that believes what is the best method to help identify those that may not have smart devices in car and phones at the moment. I'm real biased to my friend, Peter Simpson who runs iRespond. Peter has been part of IIW and the world of SSI for years alongside drum and reed for those who know drum and iRespond has, matter of fact, he's stuck in Bangkok as a matter of fact, even though he's from Seattle but they have been engaged in a range of international products for years to design digital, to design attestation physical attestation documents that can be QR code driven and interoperable with digital identities in self-sovereign identity principles but are made from one of two manufacturers in the world that develop the paper for things like passports. So it is a foldable, bug proof, waterproof sort of attestation whether it's a birth certificate, vaccine credential, et cetera, with a QR code in it that you can physically carry for those populations that don't have access to a smart device but that QR code will connect you with some decentralized ledger associated with that identity in conjunction with biometrics. And that's, that quite frankly to me seems to, especially because he's done this for UNICEF and for World Bank and others, it's real and it's out there and I would defer to him to present more on it. I'm personally more of the kind of the Pareto optimization school that has shaped fire and most everything else I guess and that the 80, 20 thing that if you can, that the bulk of the market, I mean, it's amazing how pervasive smart phones have gotten and of course, they're not at all incompatible with QR codes, the camera and the method even in Josh Mandel's presentation of using the QR code as a reader to prompt a transaction to occur. So, you know, you're going to get upward of 80% of the entire Western civilization with smart phones. And I don't mean to interrupt but I'll say from a first world perspective, yes, but when you're taking the global perspective into account, there's like 60% of the world that doesn't have access to a device. All right, I guess I'm just, I don't know. The latest, I don't know. In our case, we're focusing on the US and whenever the question comes up, even desktop, you know, I said, don't you want to do those desktop? It's, of course you can, but you've got to introduce other authenticators. I mean, if identity, deep proofed identity, you know, Cures Act now is pushing for IAL level two, you know, which goes way beyond username password kind of things. You have to have actual biometric authenticators. In some cases, you actually have to go to a government issued photo ID. So, you know, even for a desktop, you start to have to talk about hardware, you know, UB keys and the like. So again, the, you know, the bullseye and not only the bullseye, but 90% of the target is handled in ordinary Android and iOS. And that's kind of where we're... No, that's a very valuable point. But I think Debbie could maybe help clarify questions on the interoperability piece. There's many different sign-ons people can use, right? Whether you're using a username password and a different, you know, there's different portals of different applications people will have to want to be able to store this. Debbie, do you have ideas on how someone can interoperate that data across? Let's just say if Epic has a specific database system without having to create a whole vaccine credentials initiative, what's a way that someone can interoperate that data safely and in a viable way? Is that a question to me? Are you talking about like federated access, right? Being, I mean, certainly in the DID world, to be able to recognize a different authentication method should be a way to move it forward, I think. 100%. And I don't think there's been methods or ways we've talked about being able to make different authentication methods viable in here. It's just been one consortia, you use that consortia and you're able to then just work within that consortia. There's not as much creative work around how we can get it, not just from the VCI initiative, but in the CCI and the Linux for Public Health Initiative and then for some of these other groups that we're talking about here on the side too, it's how do we create that kind of rail of information as well? I would have, anybody that might like to respond to it is, and we scratch our head every day on kind of the intersection between public policy and technology here. What's gonna be the guiding bar that has to be cleared is it the 21st Century Cures Act? Is it GDPR? What is it? Is that, that has a huge impact? Most of the, even the current multi-factor authentication methods, which in the most part aren't really multi-factor, they're just one and a half factors, it's called two factor. But normal authentication methods aren't going to suffice if we think that ONC is gonna adhere in America anyway to the letter of the Cures Act. And you talk to different people and no one seems to know really whether, what the resolve of the government, U.S. government is gonna be. Well, I don't know whether I would take that focus, whether you focus on ONC. When it comes to implementation, I think more of the focus should be to NIST. And certainly through regulations, there is a required collaboration. And specifically, I would look at 863-3, which is going to four. And as far as I can tell, DRDs and the encryption to support it, even though there have been letters and recommendations and comments towards it, it's not approved yet. So I think where to move these efforts ahead to be really accepted by government, I think it's focusing on what NIST will do and what type of cryptography they would accept around that. I think policy is secondary because they need to point to standards in the first place. All right, well, that's for your opinion. But the dozen ONC are the current, well, I can't remember the rhyme and verse of the section of the Cures Act refers directly to NIST 803 as the minimum standard. So are they gonna hold to that or is that gonna slip? That's kind of our question. It really does make a huge difference in what kind of verifiable credential for identity you're gonna have to have to be fully compliant. And who cares? Is it somebody like Providence in our case, Duke is kind of our guiding IDN or health system. You get different opinions of whether they're gonna worry much about that or not. Well, historically, they had been closely coupled and the idea that you need to involve government exchange in this, I think for actual technology pieces, not the policy piece, will you bless this and this will help my product? There are two different things. But if you're looking for the interoperability of a product to be recognized and I think it's more technically it's the folks should probably be NIST or other standard bodies that other regulators may point to in the long run. HS7, IHE, those kind of things. If they support it, then that's a part of it. I mean, do you need the hammer or could industry actually collaborate in a ways that government would fall in line or at least adopt? Yeah, let's see. And now if I could add, Linux for Public Health is an initiative that Brian Bellendorf actually is taking on as kind of the executive director. He's kind of shifting his role into not only being the executive director of all Hyperledger, but being the healthcare lead. He has experience, I believe working in kind of EHR, just a database and systems realms with the medical systems in the past. And so what Linux for Public Health is looking to do now is they're looking to increase memberships into a consortia so that all organizations like we get requested every day from Linux for Public Health, do you wanna join from my day job, right? Do you wanna be able to sign on as a membership so we can be able to build out CCI initiatives? And then I know for one, Jim is part of LUMEDIC that has LUMEDIC Exchange, which is trying to be a governance body similar to Linux for Public Health as well. So there's plenty of options for people to join into here too. I think each consortia and governance body is valuable. My main thing in all these building of networks is can the networks talk to each other? Do we have technical feasibility to be able to do so? Those are the comments I'm really looking out for. I would love to hear if anyone has any thoughts on that. Yes, yes, Mike. I think as a vendor, you know, just trying to navigate this some kind of guidance, we showed like you just mentioned two weeks ago an integration using the open fire standards from Epic and obviously they have something. Is there some guidance that we can get so that this question of getting data from EHR, electronic health records, if we say that that is the master and there is some identity and verification being done there, then it will make the workflow of how we can integrate the issuance of credentials into that. And of course, the second piece of the puzzle is, I think what Debbie kind of touched on a little bit earlier which is can the trifecta of our favorite issuer, holder, verifier, can any issuer work with any holder, our wallet, with any verifier. I think those are the two kind of large questions that me as a vendor trying to put a solution out there with we showed some examples with Salesforce and so on. So that's what we are looking for, I think and guidance from this group is of course critical so that we can build to some set of standards. Yeah, and Salesforce is going on saying, hey, we're just gonna be the platform you all use, if you have Salesforce as a company right now, you can be able to just easily plug into our dashboard for free and be able to upload all the vaccination records of all your employees, the people in your network, even sometimes for partnering networks that you can be able to see it. And so if Salesforce is in the business to see it and as you're within, you know, smart health cards. So smart health cards and Microsoft as we said in the chat here, they are not connected as of now. And they did that deliberately from my perspective in conversations with them so that they wouldn't be held to that vendor locking problem that we're all kind of discussing here and getting government buy-in to understand, hey, when we store these, can you have these in an interoperable manner so that not one vendor makes more money off of the storage of this data? But yeah, it's highly valuable questions we all wanna consider. Does anyone have any answers rather than questions to add to that statement? If not, I can move on to next on decentralized clinical trials. All right, thank you everyone for the input on the identity portion of the conversation. So next up, I wanna share some information on a release on this project a network called Decentralized Clinical Trials or sorry, Decentralized Trials and Research Alliance. They recently came out with an article on God, I hate this thing, this bar above. Within STAT that talks about all the different organizations of pharmaceutical companies that are coming together to recruit broadly for patient population and ownership so that we could be able to do remote monitoring and communicate for people at home to do trials rather than having to go to physical bodies. I know there's many that are on this call that may be involved in DTRA for anyone that is part of the consortium. Does anyone have any words or thoughts as to where they believe some of the collaborations going to drive and where they hope they could be successful within this working group? I believed it was an interesting consortia. So if you go on to the site, right? You get to see all the members who have joined. Sorry, this bar is in bars, give me the way or everything. See all the members. Yeah, there's a lot of big players out here. I mean, my former employer in Accenture, AWS, AstraZeneca, BI, you name it. I think one of the, does anyone know the exact first working group or statement of work they're looking to produce for this? I thought it was in particular, just getting to have patient identities and interoperate between this, but we'd love to know if it's something beyond that. Cool, anyone just any thoughts and added questions that we may have to have as a group on DTRA in particular? All right, moving on. So last on our agenda, I wanted to bring up the University of Texas Austin MetaLinkr as come the spring, they're looking to bring on additional folks to help with shaping of their mission. They're trying to create an electric medical record system that helps with interoperability. They have funding from the Dell Medical School. They're looking to use patient identifiers. They are currently, I believe, using Indie. Don't know if they're using Aries or Ursa for the library encryption methods, but you can be able to see more here at this link. I'll share it in the tab. Not many things to see here other than if you want, you can reach out to the people directly on the contact page on here. So yeah, I'll just put this in the link and look forward to the research here. I've worked with this group before, just understanding how we could combine medical research together, research papers from light material to others. B.S. seems like an interesting project. And then if anyone, that's pretty much it. Yeah, I'll show the link in the chat right now. But if anyone else open forum for questions or comments within the world of healthcare and blockchain, I'd love to hear anyone's opinion on any other news that's going on of things that are of interest to you. Mike did it. Sorry, I was a little late, but there is the vaccine credentials initiative. In addition, obviously CCI is smart of LF right now, but there is a separate consortium, again, back to sales for historical accenture. And they are kind of coming up with their own. That's one block and then the IATA has come up with its own. So yeah, we did. Ash, we did mention the vaccine credentials initiative, which is MITRE, Epic, Center, Social Works, Microsoft. And then an alliance in my company is a part of called the Karen Alliance, which is, yeah, and about IATA and the acronym version of all that too. Yeah, we did go over those. Okay, all right. So that would, again, be of great interest too. They can be part of this. I like to hear what is it that I'm trying to figure out what is it that they are trying to do, which is different than what CCI LF is doing and see if we can all drive towards the same end. So... Yeah, Mahash, have you reached out to the CCI folks about joining Linux for Public Health? I think they would really appreciate your product. CCI is part of Linux for Public Health. Yeah, sorry, but I think that CCI is really the one that are creating the governance and the kind of standard framework. And then Linux for Public Health is doing more of the technical build, correct? Or am I... Yeah, LFPH has so far developed the open source COVID detection early warning system. Yeah, and then CCI is supposed to contribute more to LFPH with what they develop. But so far with CCI, I mean, we've developed a preliminary governance framework and just kind of looking to see what next steps are. Yeah, I know CCI is shopping right now for code bases. So Mahash, definitely reach out to the CCI folks. Yes, I am in touch with, you know, seeing Jim and Lucy and others. So we certainly... I think they are forming a more immediate group. Correct me if I'm wrong, Jim. Yeah. To focus specifically on the COVID-19 vaccine part of the story. So far it's been more around the governance and will surely participate there. I am very much attending those. Thank you. Yeah, and Mahash, you've got a great solution too with Medcreds too. Or I'm sorry, you just recently changed the name. I apologize for what you said. Yeah, very correct. Very correct, yeah. Very correct, that's it, exactly. Yeah, he presented to our group last two Wednesdays ago and that was really, really appreciated. Anything else? Guillermo, what's going on your side of the world these days with healthcare and blockchain? Well, we are not quite aligned actually, one of my goals, because I don't remember if I told you that I participated in an organization in Mexico who has almost all the IT companies that try, I mean, it's an organization where participated Amazon, Microsoft and almost all the global and local IT companies. One of the things that we are doing is trying to help the government to change some of the best practices that in other countries are applying, especially in healthcare, because I'm part of the healthcare digital committee in Mexico. But honestly, you know, it's very hard because this government is not quite excited about the technology. Actually, yesterday they launched a kind of portal where all the people above 60 years old can apply for a vaccine and they have to register there. And you know, in five minutes, the portal was just a crash. So it's very hard for us. I mean, in terms of the technology, because the policies from this government is quite savings rather than to create efficiencies into the process. And well, even that, you know, we as an industry, we are working to take, put in place some of the best practices. But it's more an initiative from the private companies rather than the public ones. So I believe that, you know, this government has also four years beyond. So let's see. I mean, we are pushing very hard to do that. So this kind of information that you share with us is very useful for us because at least we are passing that information to the community that I participated. But honestly, I don't see that we are good to get traction of blockchain at least in these two, three years. That's sad, but I have to be honest about that. We hope that they all go to you for all advice and for all consulting and any type of way and advisory for sure. I do want to point out that Linux Republic Health has done a couple of presentations for their APAC teams. So especially with the Hong Kong team. And so Linux Republic Health in particular believes that they might get some government buy-in to be able to initiate some POCs around backstation credentials that can be stored on decentralized ledger in particular, kind of the method we're all talking about as well. I also though, if anyone didn't have any other topics, I kind of have an opinion on, so CoinDesk released a statement about IBM that it's a shell of its former self that the whole blockchain team is gone. There's all these job cuts and it's ending. Fair estimate and fair opinion on that. For me, it's kind of what consensus had to do about a year ago with cutting specific special teams so they could focus more into financial services and especially DeFi. That is pretty much really what has happened within the IBM team as of now too. They had to cut a lot of the POC teams. They had to cut a lot of the marketing teams and they had to cut a lot of, in particular, non-supply chain, non-identity teams as the rest of them weren't making money. So a lot of the other ones were kind of like NFT type of solutions or collectible or merchandising type of solutions. They had to cut a lot of the people from there because they weren't generating any revenue. The international teams are still within IBM. In fact, they've actually taken Plux and leadership from R3 to be able to build out the IBM teams, not only in the United States, but also in the UK and across the globe as well. Enterprise blockchain really isn't going anywhere. I got a lot of texts from folks in different circles like, oh, are they really going away? Is Enterprise blockchain gone? I don't think any of that is happening. In fact, not only in the United States but we at Humana have our product that's going to be launched in the next week or so that's a fully blockchain product with a bunch of payers. I know there's other blockchain consortias, especially in healthcare, I can't name publicly that are coming to form as well in the United States. There's others, there's pharma ledger that's growing in popularity more than ever, mostly in the EU and some of the United States as well. And then Nippin Express, pharmaceutical supply chain tracking, that project over in Japan is getting full steam ahead. So there's many different projects out there. I don't think you have to worry about Enterprise blockchain going anywhere anytime soon. And for all the startups that a lot of you run here in this group, there's plenty of work to be had and I'm sure businesses is doing well, but anyone have an opinion on this or similar or even different perspective is this really an exodus that they'd like to discuss? I think that blockchain has had hype for five years. I think anytime there's an opportunity to write an article about blockchain hype, they take it. But I think we also see, you know, IBM working with Walmart to do blockchain for their supply chain couldn't be a better attestation as to its acceptance in some cases. But, you know, I tell my wife about this. I'm like, look, nobody goes to a Honda dealership to buy a 2.4 liter VTEC engine. They're going to buy an Accord and they like the features on the Accord and one of those features that sets it apart as a VTEC engine. And we're moving blockchain out of the buzz, I think and into more mainstream where you would select it just like you would an Oracle database. And so, you know, a lot of the hype expenditures whether it's consensus or IBM or Deloitte or whoever is getting paired back to align its actual lines of business. 100%. That Walmart initiative, they're doing a lot with the University of Arkansas too. So all the graduates that come out of that program, they have like over 100, 150 million going into that program in particular to do different pilots, POCs and then get graduates to then come in just working specifically on supply chain and blockchain for Walmart. So I mean, that's a lot of money. I know that they're going through an IBM specific program too. Yeah, and you probably saw Anthony Day's post on LinkedIn. He's like garbage article. You know, it doesn't capture anything about the substance of where they're going with it. They're just doing it at scale behind the scenes and you know, that doesn't get buzzworthiness. Yeah, I'll add just as a tiny, tiny blockchain vendor. I've had another hat seller product, Mike, I think I've talked to you about it about loyalty solution, for example. We are in very active pursuit with the big guys, Oracle and so on, providing a very niche solution to a larger ecosystem. And you know, it's interesting. I'm just as a matter of fact, I've been on a call since 3 a.m. this morning on some final negotiations with a customer in Asia. And the questions are no more about why do you use the blockchain? It's a very detailed, just like how, so the only question the customer had in my last round with them is what is your TPS? How much can you handle? We are going to have so many million customers, right? So this is the kind of conversation that we are moving to, wherein just like how Jim said, nobody talks about we use some Oracle database or something in the background, right? They are more interested is, hey, can your system scale to this level? So that is one part of the story. And my second take on that article is again, it's like anything else, right? Very, very large companies need a gigantic base. For example, when you are in the open source world, like we are in with Hyperledger products on the blockchain, the model in which they make money is like, the Linux versions are sold by Oracle and every major vendor and support is sold for the Linux operating system. So they're able to scale that to millions and millions of copies that they'll be able to make money. So they'll have to go through this read adjustments until blockchain starts getting applied to that level of scale. And then they'll have a role, which is similar to how they had for all sorts of other open source products. So that's where in the initial phases of adoption where we are doing a lot of custom solutions, there's, you know, if you have the 50 people in bench, you just can't survive while somebody like me might be able to because I have one or two guys. That's- That's- Lean and mean, love to hear it. Now it's a great strategy for anyone. Yeah, Mahesh, I think you hit it on the nail. Hit the nail on the head. I mean, we are not a blockchain company. We're a patient information logistics company. And our focus is on patient identity, patient centric management of their data, privacy preserving, HIPAA compliant, GDPR respecting. And the fact that blockchain happens to be in there is something architecturally, you don't have to tell anybody. Exactly. And then that's where we are coming to even outside the very well-defined privacy. I'm doing the same on the loyalty space wherein we are saying, this just happens to be a technology we are using, which we believe is the appropriate for the next stage of loyalty applications. That's it. And it's no more or no less than that. Yeah, really, the old guys in the crowd, people that were around when the internet was young, might remember a famous article. I can't remember who it was, wrote it. It was New York Times or Fortune, but anyway, it was published and republished everywhere. And the title was Amazon.bomb. Now you've got, anyway, it was a thoughtful treatise on why Amazon would soon be out of business. This was early 20th century, kind of 21st century pros. So I would take all, there's just something about the press that somebody alluded to the second day or that just really gravitates toward gloom and doom stories. I don't know why. I did see an economic article, like a research paper come out that statistically, more than not, there'll be negative press than anything else, just because it gets more clicks, all those other things. But it was a way more of a detailed review. I wanted to ask the group here, if you think this type of format is more relevant than having organized general forum discussion? Cause this was very informal. We just went over a couple of topics and then kind of talked about it. I'd love to hear your feedback cause I get mixed reviews on it. I hear, yes, this is awesome. I learned so much. I feel like I'm part of the group and it talks about reward issues and things that are, and obviously like health pass and digital credentials are timely. And so we're talking about it here today, but I wanted to hear your feedback. You can either email me separately from this or you can speak up now if you like this type of format to be had within the special interest group working groups. I'm trying to get it to where we have open forum then have a presentation, open forum, then presentation so that we all feel like we're having a say and being part of the conversation and not just listening and sitting back. And so any feedback is good from all you know, on this type of format. Sure, Mike will send you an email. Awesome, thank you. I'm not gonna send a Google form email. Just if you wanna separate, I think you guys have my email whenever I... Yes, I do. Whenever I send it out. So yeah, just let me know if this is valuable. I'm trying to, as I said, in two weeks have the comments foundation be able to present their findings and what they believe are beneficial within the VCI and vaccine credentials initiative. Sorry for anyone that doesn't know that abbreviation. But yeah, that's all I got guys. I hope you have a great rest of your week. Does anyone wanna mention any of the news happening in this event that I may not be familiar with? The dog agrees. Yeah, Doug's dog really likes to have it. Yeah, he has to show the dog. Yeah. Good, I hope you guys have a related note. When this meeting ends and I could provide the link real quick, but ONG has, the Optic Management Group has an RFI out for disposable self-sovereign identity and the webinar for it's kicking off in just a couple of minutes. Yeah, send that link in the chat here. I think those that are free would love to join. All right, everyone, thank you very much for the time and I will see you guys in two weeks on the 17th. We might have a comment foundation when we have someone else. Thank you, Mike. Thank you, Mike. Thanks, Mike. Sure. Thanks, Mike. Bye. Thank you. Thank you, everyone.