 I'm going to I'm going to reconvene the select board meeting call the select board meeting to order at five at five fifty five we have the select board we have morning in progress we have the select board we have the town treasurer we have the road foreman we have Steve here to talk to us about road issues and we have the folks from over on mean road and we have the listeners have I missed anyone people on do we have anybody on the zoom yes Paul Paul Polar is here and then a Steve Steve and Evelyn I think are together okay okay Evelyn and Steve you need to mute hey guys Sarah can you mute them okay so welcome everyone I hope you're all warm and dry the first order of business tonight has approved the minutes from the September 19th twenty twenty three regular select board meeting action likely is there a motion on the motion to accept the minutes of September 19th twenty twenty three regular select board morning okay okay right today's the night as corrected by the administrative assistant September 5th all seconded okay thank you all in favor of approving the motion that has been moved in seconded please say aye aye anyone opposed we've approved the minutes reviewing and amending and approval excuse me reviewing amending and approving the agenda for the September 19 or hour in the nineteen twenty three select board meeting action likely the only the only potential change I have to the agenda is we have ten minutes on the agenda for continuation of me road discussion and I acknowledge that may not be enough time to resolve the situation tonight and we can I'm going to allow us to go over a little bit but we are not going to spend too much time talking about this tonight we'll have to pick it up our next meeting if we don't get there tonight so just so everybody understands that okay okay we could do that under other business anything else anyone okay make a motion to accept the agenda to accept the agenda with the four mentioned amendments by Peter Hood and Sarah Marilyn thank you was there a second okay all in favor any opposed okay we've accepted the agenda continuation of me road discussion so as we all know we met down there in the rain we inspected the situation down there there was quite a bit of discussion about where the center line of the road was where the center of the line of the road should be etc. And with that I would open it up to the board for comment and discussion and also members of the public put the board please first you want to start us off Victor I guess not okay about Randy so go ahead first you know more of the same review for me tonight you know we've spent some time on site with Evelyn and Sam as well Stephen and Zach you know I'm having some discussions with those folks reviewing pin points and what not after you know hearing what was said tonight I think the big thing on my mind is you know the the line set that you guys had had drawn out being you know basically a straight line pin to pin I've got the survey up here in front of me and I've talked to folks on site about just acknowledging that the road does have curvature to it the survey has curvature to it so I think well you know the straight line that was displayed tonight makes sense from that point of view I don't think it takes into consideration the natural curvature of the road that's that's even you know displayed on the on the survey you know with that you know I don't think anybody was you know disagreeing that the two center points at the pins you know those all seem to be you know everybody seemed to be in agreement there it it feels to me like we just need to come to an understanding and I think the town needs to follow up and just say the road is the road we all agree upon the center of the road that 22 feet you know travel way whether it's actually 22 feet or not we just can't have anybody putting anything or disrupting any part of that 22 foot roadway that's my stance well and I'll just add that in general I don't think the town usually usually cares if it's not if there are things in a right of way like a mailbox or I mean my porch was in a right of way right it's like these are things that just naturally happened because we live in Vermont and we have crazy old roads right and so in general you know you know we as a town as long as you know we can get to the pole and you know if the fire truck had to come down right that they can have access without there being things in the way but since this seems to be a matter in which you want us to lay down the law in terms of what the the length of the road is what can be in a road you know I think that if that's what you're asking then we say take from the center make it 22 feet remove everything that's there that's your road the additional space is the right of way and don't touch the road unless you're without permission right and you're going to have to plow it yourself because that's what you do in the winter right someone has to plow the road so plowing the road agreeing on where you're going to put the snow so that it's not in the way of other people but you know if you have ever gone around middle sex and looked at a lot of our class 4 roads yours looks pretty darn good and you know there are other roads that are just not getting the attention that your road is is getting right now and you know I honestly think this boils down to people having a hard time agreeing on their territory and all we can ask that you do is that you don't play around in the road and mess around with it with tools and machinery and rakes and shovels and unless you ask permission and have a rough idea of where that 22 feet is and be respectful of each other don't put up signs in the road don't put up things in people's right of way just leave it alone and try to live peacefully Bridget I back up both statements okay Victor anything well I think that I think that that row that the road is as you said I mean it's a stupid sounds like a foolish statement but it is what it is the roads where it is and I have no problem where the road is but now I'm not saying that at one time I don't know that the line that Steve put out there it doesn't look like it's where the road is now and I don't think you know if if that if if if that road is over there and you plow that you're gonna be plowing snow right over on I mean if you stay in that 22 foot you're gonna be way over into what is now perceived as property you know what I mean if that's the center of that line is the center of your road and it may well have been at one time but it's not now and it may be a legal battle I don't think the town should be in on a legal battle and but if that's the case at some point the road got moved it got moved it's the property owner at the time's responsibility to guard his own portion of the road if it didn't happen it didn't happen I mean that's kind of the way I'm leaning thank you so here's what I would say which is sort of reaffirming what some of the other board members have said I I appreciate seeing where those pins were and I would say I agree and I think we would all agree that that is the center of the road at that point makes sense seems to be right in the center of where the road is so that makes sense what I'm struggling with is when you string a straight line between those two points that's a straight line between the two points I'll recognize you Steve but it does not necessarily show where the road is and I'm looking at the survey right here and it's clearly clearly got a got a curve in it when I look at the road as it exists now maybe it's over a little bit when you sort of follow the curve gently around right to where the old bridge abutments were and right across the bridge that seems to make sense to me so getting back to the argument that the road is where the road is I think that's what we're all trying to say now the other thing is and I want to be crystal clear about this is the right away of the road the 22 feet is the part of the road that we are the most concerned about and I realize that the travel right away as it exists is not 22 feet wide there may be trees in that 22 feet there may be other obstacles in those 22 feet but I disagree with the idea that landowners can put rocks or barriers or do anything inside that 22 feet without permission from the town snow plowing obviously accepted you have to be able to you have to be able to plow snow and I agree you guys need to figure out where the where the snow should be but for instance that line of rocks that I observed on what would that be the east side of the road how to get mixed up when I get down there what direction I'm going I think those rocks need to be moved back because they are clearly in what potentially is the 22 foot traveled traveled right away but all we are truly saying to all of you is we get a regular activity from people who say we want to do some ditching on our class 4 road we want to cut a tree down that's in the town right away it's on our land but it's in the town right away but it's blocking the sight line down the class 4 road is that okay with the town yes we would say yes that's fine you know things like that are routinely and all it takes is a phone call to Eric he'll go out there and look at it if he needs to and we'll respond in writing and it'll be in writing that we have given you permission to do those activities and if it's something that's likely to be disputed will notify a budding landowners that one of their neighbors is asked for permission to to change the path of the road and that's really it I mean our highway policy and our class 4 road policy pretty much pretty much outline all that and we are not interested in making new policies new regulations new new anything in a perfect world we'd like you guys to all get along I believe you all used to be friends hopefully you can be you can be friends again and neighbors good neighbors in the in the future but Steve you want to be recognized so I would also like to address the fact the it's not just the location of where the center of the road is that's the question it's the fact that the road has been altered many times in multiple ways to the point where the entire roadway tips to one side which would never be a thing if it wasn't altered without permission in the first place so that is the other the other half of this and where is where is if you're to proceed that that's going on you can literally you were just on the road you can stand on the road and see that the entire road slams slants towards our property I can literally show you video of the road being covered in a fashion that creates the water flow directly onto our property that is both a violation of the town policy it's a violation of multiple state laws if you want I can read them to you I have them in front of me no okay not necessary that is something else that needs to be addressed as well not just the center of the road okay and these alterations are illegal at a state level they have nothing to do with the town but it is the town's legal obligation to enforce those laws and I can read you the legislation I don't need you to read me anything thank you point taken yes yes okay guys please please address your comments to me not to each other okay two things law enforcement was involved they said go to the town on the road but that's not all my concern is I helped them place the rocks where they are because of spin outs digging holes and right where you saw the rocks went down the road the reason they're there is because there was video of the spin outs over and over where they had to call the police and that's not the travel portion of the road that's where you see the rocks going down now yeah so that being said if they move the rocks back and this begins again is that going to be a town issue to stop the nonsense I'm confused about what you're saying as the nonsense people are driving on the grass off the off the grass excuse me the cars almost hanging off did the spin out to alter the waterway to go down on the other property just yeah thicker just for my own information you had you had those metal poles up there kind of like in front of you know from your driveway up to that pin that's above Zach's house is that what you believe to be that's what the where the that's the right away that is the right away if you were to go from a straight line only across okay but theoretically it's the right you know the right away okay so not entirely because there is the so the streamline that I put up was to show the where from eat from one pin to another so you could see where the bridge comes across and how far that portion has been moved which makes it look like the road goes farther to the left and cuts back that's that's what that string line is for we get that there's a natural curvature coming up to the bridge to an extent the problem is that and nobody here can argue when they build a bridge anywhere this side and this side are perfectly square to each other that that string line was to show how far one side to the other you can measure off that other pipe again but but with that said it looks like right now that those pins those steel poles are pretty close to what you would think this would be in the right away right right those three metal things yeah yeah okay but my question is then why is the stones so far inside of that I mean those stones are roughly seven seven eight feet off the centerline I think they're talking about the poles okay wait a minute I think we're getting confused we're talking about two different things the poles are 22 feet from the center correct 24.9 24 foot 9 inches okay okay but the stones are inside that row of poles correct and the reason they're there you don't want that torn up but that is the way it is right now that is well within the right to do that to drive to drive on that grass is not well within anyone's right to intentionally spin out and turn up the grass if it's in the right it's like let me give you another example on McCulloch Hill Road two of them there's one up above the old test here place they don't like you to drive on their lawn either and they've narrowed the they got the little row they got an edge here but theoretically you could drive right over that would it be acceptable if I took my truck put on your front lawn and peeled out until you had nothing but dirt underneath my yes if it was within that right away yes it was so and I guess I would also like to ask you Peter if someone were to and this speaks to I think they're concerned about spinning out things like that so like I noticed for example during mud season on a class four on a class three road that there will be trucks that love to go muddying and fast and ruin the roads right what do we do like what jurisdiction do we have to deal with those people none right I mean so how so what jurisdiction would we have to deal with someone allegedly peeling out in the 22 feet well here's okay hold on hold on hold on hold on I have two suggestions for this so in our class four road policy it says from time to time we will maintain grade whatever the road which I will wholeheartedly admit on many class four roads we've been very inconsistent about doing that but as far as I'm concerned the resolution to this is to grade the road wide and make it so it looks like road so it isn't grass and it's within the 22 feet and at the same time potentially getting to your previous comments Stephen if the road right now is pitched so the water only runs one way which is to say toward your land and away from the French's land we should probably rate that road so it's crowned up a little bit and half the water goes one way and half the water goes the other way which is the way it would normally be in town it is not right for the road to be dumping all the water on one side of the road and not on the other side of the road yes so I just want to say I completely agree my only issues were things being in the road to make it hard because you can see the road is pretty narrow it's like a one lane road it's been like that as long as I can remember but when you start putting things in it it takes away so it makes it harder so my only concern is like things and if we want to make it 22 feet totally fine with that I do think it would be helpful if it was defined like you said make it wider so that it's clear where the actual road is where the road is yeah yeah yes I also agree I think it does is in the WB grade that part where it was mentioned where it slopes cross tees happen so that's that section where you kind of crest between where our property where the French property joins I also agree that it is a concern when people put things in the road and so as we had discussed a bunch last week we had to slide forward over we did our part and we moved our rocks to the side where it is within that other foot from the side of the road we would kindly ask that the same that our neighbors do the same in respect to their rocks back can I address what Steve said and Steve with all due respect I mean I yes you do have a right to do that if that was the case on my property it's like at your property or in front of Zach's I would not drive out on that green grass with my car I would stay in the center because I respect everybody down there but I understand some people don't and you know I don't I don't know what you do about that but it's not just driving over grass it's going back and forth I think that's what the problem is I don't understand what you mean going back and forth zigzagging down the road intentionally to make it the vandalized property that's take it down to the dirt excuse me it did blow the dirt it's not much use okay I'm sorry there's a difference so between what you were talking about so it sounds like Vic you're talking about to the edge of the road the right of way versus the roadway because those posts was the edge of the right of way correct so not like the traveled roadway so it sounds like and I don't know if there's been issues I haven't brought up anything in the right of way so like outside of the road I haven't had any issues with anything they had outside of the road so that would be a different topic if you're saying we can't have anything in the right of way versus the 22 feet the terms sorry I should have raised my hand but I think that people aren't being clear as to the difference between the right of way and the roadway correct and my understanding hearing the conversations here is that the expectation from the town would be that there would be nothing placed in the roadway that 22 foot span from the center of the road so the rocks you know on both sides would be removed Zach and Evelyn have moved theirs out so the expectation at least for me and I assume the rest of the board would be that the rocks that you and Stephen have placed on the right hand side if you're traveling out would be removed out of that 22 foot roadway placing things in the right of way is a different conversation and that's what when he was talking about when Vic said something about the right of way so those posts I'm assuming you guys were talking about those three ones so that's where the right of way ends so I want to make sure you guys are just saying the roadway and not outside of the 22 feet generally people put all kinds of stuff in the right of way okay they park vehicles in the right of way they put machinery in the right well who knows what in the right way and the only thing that applies to that is that it's important for everybody to understand is yes you can do that but if the town comes to you and says we're going to be doing maintenance work down there we need you to move your backhoe tractor car truck whatever it is out of the right of way you need to get it out of there because the town does can it's your land but the town does control it but other than that you know you can use the right of way as if it's your land which it is Stephen so you've asked me not to read the legislation so I won't but I will ask that I be allowed to cite the actual legislation so if anybody chooses to they can go look it up because it seems to be a question as to how the select board enforces these things happening so I will cite Stephen we do know how to we do know how to enforce it and we've looked into it so if it comes to an enforcement action in the future we know what to do the board members keep saying they don't know how they're going to how they would enforce it so we know how we enforce we issue a ticket is what we do that's actually not the entire process so all right Stephen if it comes up we will deal with it correctly if you want to submit that to be part of the minutes I think that's fine but I would appreciate not having you read it to us Mark that's a question behind you If you look at the abutment on the other side it was pretty good chunk of which is why they located the abutments there looks like it was a 12 foot wide deck on that thing but as far as the town is concerned any future development you know it's developable land back through there keep in mind now if you're going to cut that road what your approach is going to look like in the future because you want to come on to that bridge he's saying if we were to ever develop if you're developable land you might want to keep in mind what proper approach to the bridge proper alignment of the bridge okay thank you because if you cut it now and then you find out later there is a secondary concern and I don't want to get into it tonight but I believe in the future the select board is going to be talking about what happens to that road beyond your properties the other side of the river as you probably know if you've read or much referred to class 4 road policy we are responsible for bridges and culverts on class 4 roads so theoretically it's the town's obligation to either put a culvert in there or put another bridge in there or whatever we obviously haven't done that shame on us but the fact of the matter is does it make sense in the long run to have the road the other side of the brook or the creek or whatever we call it continue to be a class 4 road or should it be a town trail or should it be thrown up entirely that's an open question and that's kind of why we haven't dealt with the bridge as we haven't dealt with that other issue our policy generally has been that we like to keep control of town right away so I would think we would consider making it a trail not a class 4 road and not replace the bridge but I don't know that that's the case yes I'm sorry I just would like to speak to the location of the road I've been in town for almost 45 years and the farm used to plant corn down in the field just down at the end of the road right there and I've been on that road a lot not recently maybe within the last month or so I might have the road now is pretty much in the same location as I've always remembered it so as far as the location of the road I think it's it is where it is and I don't think it's ever been changed not in my short memory but I just wanted to speak to that location that's all okay thank you so if everyone agrees that this is the path forward which is to say regrade the road so that the water it's a more level and the crowned up a little bit and the water flows both ways and potentially wide in the road some reasonable amount I'm not saying to 22 feet but make it a little wider and make it clear right where the road is potentially I hate to even say that we've got a lot going on but I know it would just be great for these folks after all this time to see some action from us and if we don't keep on having days like today I know I understand have we also sent a letter to both parties about the rules they both have received copies of if you all have copies of the class four road policy on the town's highway ordinance do you not okay I thought we were going to send them letters well I'm reminding them at this meeting that that is the policy and they have it I don't think we need to send them a letter I mean that's just me if you think we should send them a letter we can send them a letter it's going to be in our minutes they were all they were all here hearing what we had to say you don't think that's sufficient I guess it's fine I just can maybe we just run through precisely what's in the minutes as far as the listing to itemize everything that's going to happen so we have Eric the rocks are going to be moved back those are on the east side town will consider possibly the culvert in the future and the future of the class four road that might be a trail and no one is to move manipulate or interfere with the road the right away road way road way not the right way is there anything else that I'm missing maybe a line about I think that's folks are skating around the edges about neighbor to neighbor harassment and that would be a civil dispute so that would be outside of the select board's purview correct and I just I'm really sorry you guys that for everybody involved it's not fun and to ask permission before making any adjustments to the right so and then next step for the select board at that point are for the road crew to do their best to get down there as soon as possible and gray grade the road which includes widening it and then future agendas won't have me road on it unless something new develops correct it'll be meet with the conversation about what happens with me road the extended portion past the bridge abitement gotcha because right now Bridget our policy says we need to replace that bridge or put a culvert in there and we haven't done that so we're in violation of our own road policy so I think that summarizes it pretty well yeah okay so that's on the tape and also will be in our minutes and if you guys have any questions you're not shy you're not shy about reaching out but I really would encourage you to take this to heart the town we hate getting involved in things like this we like people to be able to get along and be good neighbors so Evelyn's nodding her head yes I've seen you nod your head yes Samantha, Steven a little less so maybe but come on guys I just wanted to recognize to explain also to the board that from Zach in my perspective the offer to participate in a conflict resolution with the Montpelier Community Justice Center is still open so we would still welcome if our neighbors would like to participate in that with us okay okay yes and if you don't want us in the letter it's right on the website for the road policies they've got it right on the website well and our minutes and our minutes will also be there will also be there so I think it's pretty well documented okay guys thank you very much for your patience and understanding Montpelier Volunteer Fire Department joint meeting how about the Middle Sex Volunteer Fire Department what did I say sorry about that I'm a little tired I've had a long day I apologize that may not be my last mistake tonight so bear with me certainly not mine thank you total calls today is 66 we've had four calls the last month one mutual aid out zero mutual aid in max members responding is four minimum is three for an average of 3.5 engine one has been out twice rescue one has been out once all the others have not let's see the 24th of August there was a tree on a power line burning on Jonesbrook Road also there was a car fired but it was canceled there was no fire found on the 30th there was a one car accident on the interstate and on the 9th there was a two car accident on the interstate last week we did training with our new hydraulic extraction tools let's see the rescue update North Hyde Park truck is still being built fast quad calls we have a total of 18 for the month and five of them were medical only and clear water filtration system was installed September 1st and it's working how's the heating system haven't been running it yet okay you saw my email about them they're going to schedule a walkthrough for that so the trucks being built North Hyde Park but do we have a timeline as far as we're hoping next month that's what they told us I have not personally talked to them to see where they're at with it Jeff was the one in communication with them and he's gone right now but he'll be back another week I'm sure that they're anxious to get their new truck and we're anxious to get our truck yeah I was just thinking timeline the whole night narrative so yes Victor what did you call it when you used the tools the extraction tools that was over at Waldox right correct yes they give us a card to cut out so how do you do it they just give you a car and you rip it apart yeah that's exactly what happened do you put one of your volunteers in or do you use a dummy yeah we do training that way too getting them out absolutely looking for a volunteer van I went into a burning building you can go into a car okay great just to be clear the heating system is working marginal but working right it's working right I mean we have not run it yet we've not had to run the heat yet so yes it was working when we stopped running the heat well I would suggest to you sometime in the near future you turn it on and make sure it's getting chillier right make sure it's functioning because I can tell you well I know we get hot water and it's all in the same system yeah that's a good time anyway okay good well I think I'll try to get them to prioritize visiting you before they visit the town hall just let me know when I don't know if it's gonna come through Sarah no it's part of the municipal energy resilience plan grant you have to have a level review of your energy like a whole energy audit from it has to be a level two I think when you're applying for Merb so they're gonna we were approved for just two buildings the fire department and the town hall but not the town shed unfortunately I think it just had two maybe I'm sure the town shed wouldn't pass a board door I was just gonna suggest that we re-ask the question that you know based on their recommendations if we were to go and make any kind of a replacement there that it could potentially be wrapped up once they lay their recommendations on it that you know it sounded like potentially if they if we can get them in there before we have to replace it and they can make the recommendation we might be able to retroactively cover the cost of it but we can't just go in now without having them do the recommendation first yeah so let's get them in there as soon as we can I know there's been some flip-flop on those questions when we've asked them on other grants and what not I think just re-asking that question that's why I want to get them in there first although the town house is breaking down too maybe they do it all in one day let's get them in there thank you highway report gentlemen unsealing bids for safety improvements on east hill and center roads with a contractor award possible action likely yes yes so all the bids are in those envelopes can you just save the envelopes is this like Christmas before the review those bids I think from the FEMA standpoint they wanted to know what a cost estimate for much and I did do a detailed and it was just over $90,000 $90,000 yes okay so this is a bid for east the improvements on east hill and center east that is about 90 okay apples to apples so do you uh I just want to say I do have a lot of questions and I think Eric and I are going to have to make a few phone calls tomorrow morning to answer some questions on these bids so that gets to my next question at this point in time you're not ready to make a recommendation absolutely not okay so I think what we need to consider doing is let Eric and Victor do their due diligence and come back to us with a recommendation and then we can have a quick special meeting to make the decision and award the contract I would hate to wait another two weeks to go ahead with us I don't understand why me as a layperson is asked to score on this you as a what are we being called to fill out this form I'm not the person like you don't want to collect all these and go oh this person squared the highest therefore we have to choose this person and we don't know what we're talking about and is that this one I think Eric and Victor I don't know what is it the people want us to do Jason doesn't yeah Sarah has something to say so the way this works with FEMA is they do want the legislative body to go through the bids the idea is just transparency you can have a conversation about this but there should be a scoring system where you think they want a scoring system they want you to get to 100% and so if you start off with like price maybe they're not apples and oranges because some people have not there should be like a lump sum bid for this 100,000 or whatever so you can start with a price put the price in for each one but you know after Steve goes back and talks to some people and say you can give me a lump sum bid you're supposed to do it this way or that way that might be some flexibility so if the person is the cheapest they get the 40% for that price now you're moving back now you're having conversations like we did with the FEMA buyout 28 rich road so the general when can they start stop time who can start first well someone says they can start next week great they get a bigger higher score than someone who doesn't FEMA wants to see that you can approach this in the most fair and balanced way the subjectivity comes in category A which is quality of work and reputation for example to be asbestos consultant one of the things that was of value when Randy said they've got a good reputation in town they're known you know we work people work with them I highly recommend them I wouldn't score like five or whatever so that's just telling you what FEMA wants and if you're going to say why are we doing this and we don't have the skills to do this welcome to our world this is the raw reality of dealing with but we don't have to go by the part that I'm confused about is they want each one of the select board members to fill out the sheet can I speak to that what I expected to see is these gentlemen to fill out the sheet and present it to us and we approve it we're going to be the ones that are going to be getting the answers to the phone calls which is going to do some of this as far as those percentages yeah that's fine I mean I think that's true if you had better if you had more complete bids or something you guys could work on the process right now Steve could say here's corporation A this is what this is you know this is their price you know they could work through it other towns do it all the time so should we designate like Victor to be our select board member representation so you're going to fill this out no I know but to that point you know I think we could say you know Eric Victor and Steve will score the candidates for the proposals and bring that back to the select board as a whole I don't know if this is in place so I guess this is a question and if it's not in place it's a recommendation to say if we have questions we should set some timelines to you know say okay we're going to ask questions for all contractors and produce that list of questions by X-Day and look for response you know 24 hours or 48 hours or whatever after the fact and if select board members have questions as they do review any of this those should be submitted to this group going back out to the contractors within that time frame to not hold anything up I'm looking at the three of us as far as Eric Victor and myself reviewing these bids and calling the contractors tomorrow getting the answers to those questions do the scoring of what we're supposed to do for FEMA and coming up with recommendations to the board tomorrow that sounds great I mean winter is here I don't think we should waste any time in awarding this so we'll have a special meeting the template that I gave you is something that was coming given to us by FEMA that we were supposed to use so I don't think FEMA would have a problem with that at all it covers two things it has the experts going through figuring out who was you know can answer the questions like Liz said that you can answer and it has the legislative input it's a win-win you're in do you want a more special meeting for Thursday night Thursday night or Thursday whatever you want I mean it's up to you guys 5 o'clock in the morning well I think we're all eager to go Thursday night is tough for me I could do something in the day though if others could could we do it in the late afternoon sometime I have an interview between two and three like four basically I could do it at four well do all of us need to be there we just need a quorum I think this is I would really like all of us to be there what about tomorrow afternoon was that going to give them enough time what about one Thursday I could do one on Thursday actually I don't think during the day it's good for me it's good for us good for Eric it's not good I think five o'clock is better six o'clock what's that 8 a.m. 7 30 I could do a 7 o'clock 7 30 whatever I would have to be 7 o'clock if it's me I've got a meeting at 7 30 I won't be there at 7 o'clock I'm not going to be there at 7 o'clock either you know it's tough you don't work late at night you don't work in the morning when do you work really tired so if it is I didn't want to do Thursday night but I can make it happen there's everybody else on the same page five o'clock on Thursday you can't do Thursday five o'clock tomorrow I would like us to have our stuff done tomorrow I mean if anybody in the select board has specific questions that they would like answer but if they're different from ours I mean getting in touch with us really but what about 4 p.m. tomorrow or 4 30 tomorrow I could do something after 4 tomorrow I would think so you're not going to have an hour meeting are you I mean the only thing I can see happening is and I hope it doesn't happen can you guys come back with your recommendation and a member of the select board has a question which is still unanswered we might have to delay it further but hopefully that will not be the case so will everybody get materials prior to anticipating looking at email at like 3 30 meeting at 4 30 is that too early and then it's a big bang boom once we're on the phone I'm sure of it you're sure that they won't I'm sure they will I bet you they would answer 4 30 p.m. tomorrow with presents here in town hall in case anybody wants to participate will we anticipate something by email prior my only question is that there's one that's really under and if there's any explanation that needs to be said why that is he always says he's the one that did our call all seasons you're looking at the all seasons I can answer that right now they did not include any materials the town was buying the materials so that puts their bid up to like 81,500 and that'll be more evident tomorrow I can read that meaning if Victor would like me there to answer questions okay so tomorrow if all I would say I guess Steve is if after you guys have these discussions tomorrow if you think it would be useful for you to be there it would be great if you could be there if you guys are in perfect agreement and Victor's ready to carry the football that's fine but it's a zoom meeting so you can do it from the barn you can do it from the tractor we can do it right from here right is it the same old link yeah if you can circulate the link that'd be great thank you I go to front page 4 4 30 we said 4 30 p.m. I said to 7 no way to like 5 right for 5 30 what how long is this meeting going to take 10 minutes so long as everything's like now yeah set it up for half an hour 4 35 p.m. need a special meeting okay good anything else gentlemen I'm coming up and I don't take it with great zeal to do it I mean I'm not real happy about it but the amount of time I'm spending on this is getting a little bit long yeah we've got two people you've got Eric they're paying you've got Steve they're paying with no disrespect I mean I don't really want a job but I mean I don't really want the money no no no so what are you saying you would rather have Eric present this tomorrow or Eric I mean if it's an extra assistant I'm happy to help with some of the stuff that you're helping with now if that's what you're looking for no the only thing I don't want a W2 or whatever you call it there's no way I can do it without it I just don't want one it's counter deductive even mileage would help oh I think you could claim mileage but I'll do this tomorrow free gratis and we'll go from there but I think you should definitely claim mileage you should definitely claim mileage okay is that right with Eric too no that doesn't count you have to buy lunch I mean the other thing I would say Victor is you know we've got our paid guys doing this you know stay out of it to the extent that you can I mean I value you very much being involved I do I mean I do with all due respect they do but if they want some input I'll I do I definitely think from a road commissioner standpoint it's important that he be involved in a bid yes okay okay anything else gentlemen I guess I got to ask the question I don't know what the what or how it's supposed to work but we are in dire need of an excavator nothing's broke yet but it's not far from it yeah I heard it go by the house the other day so I guess what is the I'm getting bids together how do we go about doing this our word we're due for one this year Randy I think that's what the I believe that's right I think we've got pretty sure for the capital spending plan right give me a minute and I'll pull it up so what I would say is along with everything else we should be working on that I mean the good news is we can buy the excavator borrow the money no payments till next year right Derrinda well it'll be it depends when you take possession of it right right right right oh no it would have to be after July it doesn't require you haven't got anything we haven't the voters haven't approved it number one because the voters will have to approve this because it's not a truck it's a piece of all piece of equipment so we would have to take if it's an emergency situation what we have to do is take out a one year loan and then go to the voters with it to have it go to a seven year loan the process that's all okay well that's that's what we're hearing right now I guess the question is I know we've been renting an excavator just recently yeah yeah because I don't I don't want the other one to break and have a ginormous bill of something we're just getting rid of it doesn't make financial sense to me well and it renders it virtually worthless oh yeah yeah you're isn't anybody who's going to take that in on trade look at that and subtract the cost of redoing the tracks and the yes they do that's all factored into the trade and I think there was like a I think the last conversation that I remember having there was like a $30,000 value or something like that to the work that needed to be done on the undercarriage of that so if I remember it properly we're to $38,000, $40,000 yeah I've got a few different quotes back for trade in they range from $30,000 to $40,000 used but that's for the trade in value they're going to give us for trade in are you planning new or use sorry I interrupted new just because we keep it for 15 years isn't it 15 years oh no that's what 16 was what was in here what is budgeted for it again 200 is the replacement value with an estimated $30,000 trade in value so it was $170,000 and we still need voter for $170,000 that was $200,000 I think it has to do with the indebtedness it has to do with the indebtedness because we're going over five years I believe that's the issue yeah we're renting one right now I just like to talk it out here I don't know we're getting into we don't usually use it much in the wintertime I don't know how much of a yank we are well that's what I mean if we can we might not need to take possession of it this year I mean we only got another month or so and then we usually start parking it and a lot of our work is going to be that safety work so we won't need it there so would you plan to just rent in between July or try to take possession of it and maybe in the springtime well if you could get it on to the March voting right I mean it doesn't make sense how long what's the delay when we order it do we know no it's not very long so if we got approval on town meeting and the week following we placed the order we would have the excavator in time I think so okay well I like that I like having we should bring up also that we've been talking about the you said 200,000 that's what is in the capital assessment but you can save a hundred thousand dollars if you buy a little bit smaller one comparable to the one we got now there's options out there that we're working through right now like a class lower I mean that conversation has been kicked around a couple different times sounds like there was a little bit of a divide amongst well I think the question is so the question is if we only from time to time need a bigger excavator or an excavator with a longer reach or whatever it is is a more cost effective to us to rent that when we need it and have a smaller excavator which is what does the work for 75 or 80% of the time that would be my question and I'm not I don't know enough about the workload that's all stuff we're going to work out I just wanted to know the process so we can move forward so I can plan for it I think I think what we're saying is the process should be let's through the budget process which will be coming right up here get some refined numbers so that we can get it on the town meeting day warning plan on doing that and then plan on ordering it as quickly after that as we can hopefully by then we have our trailer right we have it now we do good and you'll be getting bids for both classes I've got information on both I think what Eric's saying but not saying is that we'll have to get together and we'll figure this out what we want to do what would be best for the town and then we'll propose it to you propose it to the select board in a future date I think that's what he's saying yeah during the so as we're working on our budget that's the proper time to do that on our capital spending plan Randy what else do we have up for next year if we push this off until next year what else are we running into so we've got the replacement of the international in 25 that's at the tune of 1955 that's with the expected trade in so we we have 230,000 on it without any trade in so I don't know what truck prices have done but just more not now but just because they jumped wicked so I mean but that's five not four that's in 25 that's another year so as far as vehicles looks like everything else is just typical you know paving town hall fund what about the rule of tobacco that is set for that's a kamatsu the loader the back home you want the back home so that is set out in 28 we've got replacement value of 125 for that with you know and all these trade in's are basically just 15% is what's being carried so you don't put in those calculations you don't have inflation do you there are on a separate sheet but no typically we're asking for and in the annual process we'll ask if there's been a major jump so I give you what you need Eric and I agree with not breaking the excavator the loader just so you guys are aware that kamatsu loader is set in 26 that'd be before that back home so okay Sarah we didn't need to make a motion that we are assigning those guys to do the bids no okay no and I don't know have you seen the pike bill come in for the paving yet came in today right so it's over what the bid is is that I don't have to go back and look I didn't really look at it okay well it came in higher than what the bid was isn't that because of it might have been because of the terrace that's what I wondered if that's what it was okay so that's yeah right no and I just didn't know if you had seen the bill yet I just know it came in higher than what I was expecting okay so we can get that grant submitted yep that's why I grabbed the paper but I didn't okay because I paid the first bill today but I didn't pay the second bill because before I paid this yeah the second bill I wanted to get it okay yeah so we'll get a check done for that I'll submit that yep and you can submit it okay and we can get our money back and then we can get our money wouldn't that be good we could certainly use it anything else on the highways no so we don't have anything are we and I have not looked at these bids at all are they all pretty much ready to go I mean is this work that can be completed this fall do we know that's hard yeah okay that's the question we'll ask tomorrow because again I just want to say and I mean it just East Hill Road because I drive back and forth on it every day I mean it's going to be dangerous as how if we don't get the worst for winter and there are other places in town too yep okay thank you treacherous report considering approval of a three ooh million ooh line of credit yeah price the previously approved 1.5 million line of credit from community bank to pay for emergency and road construction due to the July 9 10 20 23 natural disaster with the expectation of FEMA in the state of Vermont reimbursement for much of these costs action likely Brenda it's here yay there's three places for you guys to sign and the motion has to I think the same as last time Sarah I just want you to be current expense no line of credit for three million for one year the purpose and the lender you got all that right current expense no line of credit of $3 million from community bank NA for a term length not to have seen one year in paper expenses related to repairing damage from the July 8 20 23 storm flooding incident in anticipation of reimbursement from FEMA the state of Vermont and possibly other services permitting Peter hood it's like board chair to sign on board behalf but we don't need that now you don't need that now scratch that because the whole board's signing on all right that's the motion so the only other comment I have before I ask for a second on that motion is my understanding is the bank was friendly nice helpful the reason I keep going out to that bank is they were well we want to ask for more they said how much more I said double it and they kind of went and I said so but then I just talked them through thank you no problem granted it's what they should do but I'll tell you having spent a lot of time dealing with banks in my lifetime it doesn't always go that way so I just think it's important for us to know that it was handled that way and at some point in time when you're talking to them just tell them the board really appreciates their response to our request I think they recognize what we keep in our bank account we always have a good balance it's not like we look like we're struggling and we have good audits all good thank you for that I appreciate it so with that is there a second to that can I just say something can you just add to the motion that this should reply I think it's just there to say that this will replace the one point I think that's a good idea so people don't think we're taking that too away so I need somebody to make that motion Randy and is there a second I'll second it all those in favor of approving the three million dollar line of credit note please say aye okay thank you we all need to sign we all need to sign in all these different places most of them are on the backs of where I have to while you're signing we take it our notice this week for our payment to the school nine hundred and fourteen thousand dollars each quarter each quarter and when does that do each quarter last year we paid 833 and there's nothing you can do about it which brings me to my next point is I sent you guys the tax appeal letter every time we have something like this I mean not that we've had that happen before but we're paying that education rate does anybody know that I mean we're on the hook for it because these people are getting credits and the same thing happens when we do error and emissions you know we're crediting these people but everything we're paying in is off the grand list that was submitted at the time and I don't know enough about it whether there's any reports to get any of that money back or not if our grand list changed significantly enough over time I mean this one goes back to 2020 and we'll appeal the numbers that we've provided to them right I remember and I can't remember how long ago it was but this question came up and I believe we asked the league of cities and towns and they said no no we just gotta suck it up and we need to whether we're granting abatements or errors in emissions or whatever it's on us and hopefully we can limit that I don't mind making the call again and saying hey I don't know because it's decided by the state right no but the question is is there any recourse can we go back and refile our grand list with these changes and I'm pretty sure the answer is no I guess it doesn't hurt to ask if we're in conversations with them I mean the league of cities and towns will know that would be an all day exercise it's adding up so the issues are I'm pretty sure on the errors in emissions they're going to say that's on us but on the tax abatements this is an appeal but the abatements a whole another conversation the abatements do the same thing so the question is in light of all this our grand list is significantly going to go down it keeps going down which means our taxes have to go up which means everybody else's taxes go up when you say the list is changing is there like one predominant reason over others no it's like this was a tax appeal that took through the process years to go through I was just wondering if we're losing people off the grand list well you're going to lose if these houses go up in the grand list but if anybody comes and asks for an abatement that's where the board of abatement needs to decide how they're going to handle the towns portion versus the school portion which is the largest chunk of the money think about those towns you know that Niagara falls people don't know when they're living in these homes anymore and then they have no tax base at all we're not there yet okay I think that is it great work Darinda save in the day 2023 grand list to correct errors on parcel zone Margaret Leone his land was subdivided in 2020 so when there was a sale in 2022 the PTR didn't pull it up because it wasn't from both parts so there was a difference and 8 acres was showing up on the new folks that did get a tax bill but it was also still showing up on his tax bill so this is truly a reduction in our grand list on that one Margaret Leone says to her it's a reduction of $9600 but doesn't Chad Borstein pay the $9000? so there really isn't a reduction in the grand list it was double bill so there wasn't a reduction in the grand list from that Margaret Leone she started a business in her home so when it came across with Vermont High that new system that still kind of got a lot of bumps you have to change it not only on the grand list but you'll have to change it in the 2023 grand list and force change it and what happened when that was done somehow it got put inactive so it showed up as a grand list she never got a tax bill and luckily she called so we reactivated it and there's a difference of $6100 to more on the tax bill because of the business and the other is that she had a business that comes across from the state now with that new software so that's the other wire there's a little, believe me bad news for her but good news for us and she understands that and she's okay well she doesn't yet because we haven't mailed it yet we had to get this quote here but she called and said she didn't receive a tax bill so she's expecting one she might be because she has a business now 33% of the business in her home so her tax bill is increasing and the total tax bill is $6100 the last one LaMoyle Valley it was almost the same thing is that there was contiguous property that was tied to Conner Incorporated and then when they sold LaMoyle two tax bills were printed because prior to even us it still showed all active so LaMoyle and Conner LaMoyle was getting a portion of the tax bill for so many acres and Conner was getting rest and I guess for the last couple years Conner's been handing it over to LaMoyle to pay and said you know what's going on so we did research on it and Conner had the contiguous property tied to their name even though they sold all three of the parcels that were contiguous together to LaMoyle so there's like a 1.5 acre, 2.8 acre and a NWM 5.9 or something like that that was total and LaMoyle was getting a portion of the tax bill and Conner was getting rest of it they didn't pay it, they just gave it to LaMoyle which they paid for the last couple of years but they brought it to our attention but that doesn't affect any of the dollar amount that was just like a name change and making the contiguous parcels go to LaMoyle and making it inactive so that he gets charged for the full amount. Well that sounds like the consequences aren't too bad on that basis. And I did write a report because we removed Listers for the last year and a half for any subdivisions to make sure that this doesn't continue and everything looked okay. Great. Thank you. Is there a motion to approve those changes? I make the motion to approve the Listers changes as stated. Post seconded. All in favour? Aye. Any opposed? Thank you. Thank you Listers. It is a learning curve dealing with all this stuff and we appreciate that. I'd appreciate your work. When we think we got it, there's something else that comes up. And I can say that those errors and emissions from last week or last meeting were not signed Peter signed them but so you could need to sign the errors and emissions for Boulder and then you have to sign the errors and emissions for this thing. There are two there. And this is the new one right? No. 19th. 19th. Thank you. Okay so we have before us an applicant certification by the town of Middlesex for the Vermont Department of Environmental Conservation regarding the fire station and this is the stormwater runoff permit. When does the actual project need to be complete? It's not a big deal. So is there a motion to approve this certification? I guess it's what it does. Application for certification. It has to be signed by the chair of the legislative body. Ready moves. Second. All in favor? Liz are we you need to go take a nap and come back? I just might. Okay it's been moved in second. All those in favor? Aye. Anybody opposed? I'm signing it right now. I have the minutes here signed. Okay Welch Park update. Well here's the said story. I have called their office four times since the last meeting, spoken to Sue in their office. She speaks to John. They promised to call me back and they have not called me and I called again today and I said our board meetings at five o'clock I need to hear from you. I am really. I forget why we're even calling them. I do. Because what we're trying to do is amend the operating agreement for Welch Park which distributes responsibility for all the different stuff. The fire ponds, the septic, the this and that to the different entities and dissolves the Welch Park association. And I don't know what the reason is that he can't get to it but I mean I'm ready I mean he's a friend of mine. I mean that's the most embarrassing part. I'm ready to tell him if he can't move on this by the next board meeting we'll come and get the file and we're going to have to give it to somebody else. I don't know what else to do. Who is it? What? John Riley? Okay, I got you. Carl Bailin your buddy Dorenda suggested we have Dorenda go down and call on him personally in his office and give it to him with both barrels. I didn't think that was an appropriate approach. I thought Carl could give it to him with both barrels but he won't even talk. He won't talk to Carl to me. I mean this is ridiculous because we're incurring all these costs. It's going to cost us for this permit. I know it but I'm just saying that well that's part of it, isn't it? That doesn't fall into Welch Park. Everything we do we're just fronting the money for something that we don't want to be a part of. We've been fronting it now for what's your pleasure ladies and gentlemen because I am literally at the end of my row and I can't, I mean if I could do this myself I'd do it. The other problem is there are two problems. Number one I have no idea who the right person to hire to do this is so we need to figure that out and number two it inevitably is going to cost a lot more money because somebody's going to have to figure this whole mess out from scratch. John at least knows the background so do we give him a little more rope? Do we give him a one month deadline? I don't know. Does having another person tag team calling him? Every member of the select court calling him? I don't know the answer to that Randy. I'm happy to make some phone calls and be on their call log as well if you think it's going to help. Stop over with donuts I was going to drop over with a bottle of bourbon but I'm particularly frustrated because he was in the office today. He wasn't up doing title searches. He was there and I talked to his secretary. It was very nice and she said I assure you he will call you back within the next hour. No call. I'm not frustrated. Let's just say, let's just table it but let's wait until another meeting to discuss. Really? I mean we've been talking about Wells Park for years now. Why don't we give him a month for not the next select board meeting but the following one? Or if you can't talk to him how do you get that message to us? I'm going to give Sue the message and I'm going to send him a letter. Or a certified letter. You have to sign for the letter. No I'm not going to do that. Can I just give a little update about the town hall? Is that okay with everyone? I don't think we need a motion. Okay, thank you. Update on the town hall. Next select board meeting is when VA is visiting. Sarah, did we decide how long we had on the agenda? Was it 30 minutes? You just told me you put it on the agenda. I didn't know how long. This is the public meeting where we're going to invite the public to come in here. What we've done and sort of moving forward. So I think that when we were talking with BIA I think we talked about we'd like a half hour if we can get it. Because it just takes that amount of time. So next Monday I'm meeting with Dave McGeeta to create the presentation. Sandy's away to create the presentation. They're also going to present but sort of to give like a little historical perspective. And then have BIA share with what they worked on. And then talk briefly in a slide or something about potential funding sources. I know this isn't great timing given the flood in our $3 million line of credit, but it is what it is. So we're just sort of moving forward with sort of the plan of how we would address the issues of the town hall. So as a part of this whole process I reached out to the Vermont Bond Center or whatever it's called to ask them if they would be willing to meet with us to sort of walk us through what the process is. I looked on their website but I needed more information. They only issue bonds once a year. So it sounded like we're in sort of the exact same spot that they are at with the whole Merp thing. Like they're all like yes we're thinking of the same thing as like how do you leverage the bond with the Merp money. So there's a loan officer who's going to get in touch with me to schedule. So I would like you to be there. Dave probably would like to be there too Dave McGeeta. Because sort of now is the time to be at least understanding what the process is and knowing that it is a winter and summer. I think it's summer and winter bonds that they do. And so anyway so and then I've been researching on the leagues of cities and towns, the various funding sources that are available. The most obvious ones are the Merp there's probably smaller grants for historic preservation trust. There's ADA grants that can go pretty high for doing all of the elevator and ADA stuff that needs to get done. There's like lower term loans and of course then there's the bond. And then you know another piece of this would also be which I think Susan Clark would be willing to help with this sort of a town philanthropic request. One of those like raising you know the thermometer of how much we can raise and you know getting people to potentially give money on a personal level to you know be named the community room after them that kind of thing. But the reality is I did reach out to another person I forget his name but Susan Clark gave me his name and he's somebody who sort of does he does this for a living as a consultant he's not interested in taking this on because he's too busy but where you can hire someone to help you understand the stackable funding and what's available and you know when to apply and how to sort of apply everything together. And we have of that $4,000 we have $3,500 that we could potentially put towards hiring a consultant to help us. He gave me a list of folks I actually know a couple of people on the list and I thought I'd reach out to one to just give him a sense like how much would this like would you charge for this kind of thing. And know that it's probably more than like what a volunteer has the capacity to do well meaning like me. It's a big job to kind of figure out how you're going to put this all together and then present it to the town. So the other thing is that and I've been playing telephone tag with Jenny from the municipal planning grant about this town hall because she keeps saying you're spending this too fast. Like usually nobody asks for the money yet and I just I need to talk to her about why and how we did some of the work before you know it was approved but I believe we could also even though we may have to front some of the money we can instead of not spending the grant because some of it went towards a time when we couldn't spend it is that I think she may allow us to put some of this money towards a contractor to continue this work that we're doing. So even though it wasn't in the scope of the original grant work if we said well you know if we had to return four thousand dollars because you know it was spent before we were supposed to spend it could we use that money towards a consultant. So and the match I mean really I'd like to use it for the match but I have to have that conversation with her. So there's just a lot of moving pieces and I just want to update everybody that's where it is. Onward and upward. Yeah Victor. You did mention Sandy's name Levine right? Yeah. She has that now what's she doing with if you read the planning commission agenda tomorrow night they're going to address that also she's got something in there on the town hall. Are you familiar with that? I have to look at the agenda I know that she asked us about applying like were we interested in applying for another like there's some municipal planning grants come every year right and it's time to start thinking if you want to apply for another one. We just got two in a row I feel like it's a little bit selfish to keep applying but it wasn't about that like applying for a municipal planning grant. I know I'd have to read it again. I don't know if it's with this agenda or the one previous but there was something about discussing the use of opera funds. Yeah that was on this one. That was on this one which really surprised me why they would be discussing the use of opera funds. I'm looking at our municipal planning grant application due November 2023 town hall water system conservation planning roads defer in light of town's flood related projects. I think they're just thinking is this is there a reason that they should apply for a municipal planning grant. For roads what's the thing for it she said town hall for this or that you know like the water system she's just throwing it out there on the agenda is there something that we want to is there something that the planning commission wants to pursue with the planning grant. Part of me says because I thought about this after was maybe we want to apply for the planning grant to hire someone to plan for this because 4,000 is not going to be enough. I think a consultant is going to ask for more than 4,000. If we're going to be doing this we need a grant manager our office can't handle this period. I mean not especially now with all this FEMA stuff I mean I can't speak for the office but I know I'm overwhelmed I'm overwhelmed and fix overwhelmed and the rent is overwhelmed and the payroll is overwhelmed we're just overwhelmed. That's the idea we would have to if there's a grant to hire somebody to come in send out all the bids do all this that would be great. I know I mean that's this sad reality amazing job I haven't but can I do a quick update on Welch Park please don't tell that name again Rich Road just going to do it really fast we did the asbestos consulting that Atticus filled with vermiculite. Randy was very very helpful with this Clay Point said that they have also done a bunch of tests out if it turns out that the vermiculite was mined at a certain place in Colorado is that right? We can apply for a $4,000 rebate on that cost but bottom line is that the contractors for asbestos remediation are in high demand can you imagine why if I can't and so we're going to hustle to try to find a contractor and we may not I mean I hope we made the deadline our demo guy has said okay I'll put you on the list on October 30th this project was supposed to be done September 30th and it was moved to help October 31st and then we've asked for another extension to November 31st 30th so that is where we are right now it's just we're at the mercy of the market but we all remember when those guys appeared here and said don't worry about it if there are delays right do we all remember that it was in the meetings remember that that's why we had them do that back me up on this right there are plenty of recordings saying yeah we have video okay so that's the update of rich road and as of right now how many bios do we have from the current situation you said you proved well like to come in and do some worse we probably might have 14 I got to track some other person people won't approve 14 buyouts I don't think there's one where she has not bought a data buyout and I I'm wondering if maybe we just let the town just I mean she might just walk away from it it's a 36,000 dollar property let it go to tax sale town has it just a storage we're going to have a nice park down there 36,000 anything else anyone so we're meeting tomorrow nights at 5 o'clock 4 30 check the email at 4 o'clock hope I remember you can um uh lose set an alarm on your phone now I have it on my calendar at work it's just we could call you I also have an 8 30 to meeting tomorrow okay well before Lewis falls asleep in her chair I'm going to declare I'm going to declare tonight's meeting adjourned thank you all very much I think you're right I'm going to do that I'm going to put a reminder yeah I do that