 It's your main Yeah, I don't see anyone that looks like the speaker My father was the founder of soul city Good evening everyone The time says 701 so let's get started First of all welcome and thank you all for coming Committee once again, thank you for coming and participating and thanks to the city and to the county We want to make this a public Inclusive and educational project for all and we put a high priority on gathering as much public input as possible So as you can see from our committee members, we'll give you give much all a chance to introduce themselves briefly We've assembled an excellent group that represents a cross-section of our community young and old different races and genders From across the city and the county now We do expect our discussions to be passionate and energetic But we also expect them to be civil and constructive at every meeting We will have an invited speaker who's an expert excuse me an expert on some Aspect of our charge and we will also have time for public comment and committee discussion some meetings will be in city county chambers and some will be and Mostly in public libraries in the area We have the charge for the public comment and the committee says so other meetings will as I said will be elsewhere I'll give you the list near the end of the meeting. So as a reminder This is not a Process meant to address the rights or the wrongs of how the statute came down Our charge is very specific and forward-looking and it's meant to lead to a final report with recommendations So I'm going to read those five charges and then we're going to Introduce the body and then introduce our speaker Number one in the charges engage the Durham community in an expansive and transparent public process Regarding public monuments and other remnants of the Confederacy present in Durham To propose to the county commission a plan of dispensation for the Confederate monument torn down Outside the old courthouse as well as the base of that monument that remains Three to catalog all known Confederate monuments and other remnants of the confetti set Excuse me other remnants of the Confederacy or the history of enslavement existing in Durham For proposed to the city council and our county commission as appropriate a plan For the dispensation of such monuments and remnants and five our last charge In addition the committee may choose at its discretion to solicit recommendations from the public for people events And locations missing from Durham's historical narrative that might be recognized in future public efforts So, uh, thank the committee once again for serving We look forward to hearing uh diverse voices of the Durham community and can we started this in just You know 36 30 60 seconds and say who you are a little bit about yourself. Sure. Hi. I'm deon verrose I'm an assistant professor of public policy and political science at duke university I'm a political historian and my work focuses on higher education policy identity politics and equality I am elizabeth sappenfield. I'm the former president of preservation durham, which is the city's non-profit advocacy group for historic preservation Good evening. My name is stephanie diane ford. I'm a Durham based video professional and filmmaker Hi, my name is jacob rogers. I am a head up a local advocacy group that focuses on land use policy and economic growth Hello, my name is watson jennison. I teach at the university of north carolina greensboro in the history department And my name is dr. Charmaine mckissick melton. I'm an associate professor of mass communication at north kawan central university I'm co-chair of this committee and the next co-chair is dr. Robin Kirk My name is robin kirk. I am the co-director of the duke human rights center Which seeks to use human rights as a way to teach students about about the world Good evening, everyone. My name is susanna lee and I teach history at north carolina state university My name is william o'quinn. I'm a native of Durham. I'm with the sons of confederate veterans of the north carolina division lifelong native out there I'm glad to be here tonight and glad you with us Hi, i'm barbara lau. I'm the director of the poly mary project Which is part of the duke human rights center and the executive director of the poly mary center for history and social justice We're interested in focusing on poly mary's vision for equality and justice for everyone and using a tool A history as a tool for human rights work And I do the legal history. Could you hear me? Could you hear me in the beginning? Okay, I do the legal history of the us south in the 19th century with focus on the early history of segregation in african americans And i'm a 20-year resident of durham Thank you everybody So just to let you know there's agendas over to my left over there if you are interested in following what we're doing We also have sign-up sheets for those who want to make a public comment as well as sign-up sheets If you want to receive information from the committee Um It's my pleasure to introduce teresa ron who's our speaker today She is going to speak until about 7 45 and then we will have time for the committee to ask questions And after that point we will have time for public comment Um, teresa ron earned her b.a in history at virginia commonwealth university Then worked at the richmond public library and then the valentine museums library where she was director of archives and photographic services She was the archivist at the museum of the confederacy for over seven years And was in charge of over 100 000 original documents from the war between the states mostly from the confederacy She has served on the boards of friends of the richmond public library alliance to conserve old richmond neighborhoods and the historic richmond foundation Rone received the heritage preservation award from the national sons of confederate veterans In 2012 and the rebecca jones alford bonnie blue medal from the north carolina sons of confederate veterans in 2014 At the 2014 national sons of confederate veterans convention. She received the commander in chief ladies appreciation medal at their 200 2015 convention United daughters of the confederacy north carolina division Bestowed the jefferson davis gold medal for excellence in history to miss ron. So please join me in welcoming miss ron to speak with us I may be speaking just a little shorter than planned because I was told 15 minutes. So That's fine. Okay Just make sure you're speaking to the microphone so you can hear you Can you hear me? Yeah, yes Good evening and thank you for inviting me here tonight Some of you may know that I have a presentation about why we should reserve confederate monuments and memorials It contains information about military leaders soldiers women native americans and people of color However That is not on the agenda tonight I plan to talk about memorials in history But not in the way that you might expect it In 2015 While the nation mourned the deaths of non innocent christians The southern poverty law center Took on a project to remove confederate monuments and symbols They created a form For people to gather the information for them Then they created a chart and led to the buzz phrase that was very popular in 2017 Confederate monuments were erected during the gem crow era In the civil rights movement To intimidate blacks and to send a message of white supremacy Immediately that phrase spread like wildfire Professors organizations media And the general public used it as a weapon to bring confederate memorials down and or to remove them No one asked for any primary documents to substantiate their claim However, it was very easy to mislead people Why? Because the lack and or the over simplification of history in this country History for the last 50 years or more is told in sound bites and does not reflect the true and actual complexities I have a chart for you tonight This is information that is not taught in schools but documented by the federal government There were always more free blacks living in the south From 1790 to 1860 and in the north By 1860 there were 250,787 in the south versus 225 961 in the north This is based on the united states census Now before people get worked up I know that slavery existed But we have to realize that it was a new united states issue The slave ships flew the united states flag and sailed from northern ports This carrying trade was constitutionally protected All the blame cannot be put on the south We need to understand that when the war broke out There were still states within the union that had slavery And once Virginia entered the union as a slave state These are statements of fact Now let us turn to the subject of Jim Crow When people think of this issue once again, they point their finger at the south However, where did all this originate? We have to go back to 1792 Where Delaware state constitution limited franchise to quote free white males in quote Laws to disenfranchise or to exclude free blacks Will continue up north the midwest and to the west coast through 1868 After the war people with this attitude were moved down south They thought they understood race relations In the meantime, dissension and racial tensions will increase In fact, after the period of reconstruction Many of the northerners who came south after the war with true and the south was left in the quandary Please remember that the states that made up the csa were US military districts until they were emitted back into the united states And that brings us to Louisiana Which had a transportation law that seated whites in the front of the car And people that looked like me in the back Homer Plessy who described himself as one eighth black Decided to test this law He was arrested and took the case all the way to the united states supreme court The decision was 171 that separate by equal was the law of the land Justice John Marshall Harlan a katuk in wrote the dissent This law was struck down In 1954 in the famous brown versus the board of education decision So let us go back to monuments and memorials Why is splc using Jim crow's excuse simply because it's convenient the south was devastated by the war Regardless of the videos and other nonsense that has been produced lately It took seven years to find the funds to erect these memorials If an artist was hired it sometimes took decades Recently I came across a listing of the cost of some of the memorials that were erected It ranged from 1000 to 75 thousand dollars Contrary to current videos making its way around social media. It did not cost a couple of hundred dollars I also read how people donated 25 cents up to five dollars as contributions to fund the creation of a memorial The fundraising came from bake sales bazaars and other items such as prints to help purchase them One article in the confederate veteran magazine december 1907 Explained that northerners were putting up more monuments in the south because they had the funds Why were they going up? They went up as a way to mourn the loss of military leaders Soldiers who never come home came home and also to remember the events of the war Also, let us not forget that there were the 50th and 75th anniversaries of the war It was a way to commemorate the past I've read many speeches written for their unveilings Do you think that people gathered to say that a monument was a way to control people of color? These speeches were published and if white people wanted to make sure that there was a message Why did they not say it after all they had all the power, correct? Why are people in the 21st century so patronizing about black people of the past? Do you seriously think that people of african descent crumbled over artwork? I personally find it quite condescending because the same people who make this claim would tell you that enslaved And free people of color built this nation. Now, which one is it? What else was going on at the same time? The united confederate veterans formed and reunions were held Now were these national reunions just for whites only? No Men of color who served in the confederate military attended the reunions as well These are documented by evidence of photographs and articles which are being exposed daily especially on social media These men marched in parades at reunions and their white counterparts welcomed them Do not discount these men They were not uncle toms or suffered from shock Stockholm syndrome Do not insult their memories No one forced them to go to the reunions Did you know that if they could not afford to go? A collection was taken up by white people so that these men could afford to attend All of this was happening during the Jim Crow era. Well, just imagine that a scenario The sad thing about this is that since we are taught that there was only one cause of the for the war Their memories were swept under the rug At one point people no matter their ethnic background knew that these men existed However today historians and the general public will call them every name in the book Oh, by the way, one of the most informative books about this topic is the confederate negro Published in 1969 by dr. James H. Brewer He was a history professor at North Carolina central university His book is on gettysburg college top 200 civil war books It is their words and not mine Isn't it ironic that for decades black people said that they wanted to know their history? However, when it comes to the confederacy it is very selective When most black people paralyzed by these memorials, did they make any major contributions to society during the Jim Crow era? Yes, is the answer and here are the names of some of them Booker T. Washington George Washington carver John shipping Scott Joplin James Weldon Johnson John Rosamond Johnson Burke Williams George Walker Jimmy Winkfield WB Du Bois Magdalena Walker Mary McClell Bethune Dr. Solomon Carter Fuller Elaine Locke Madame CJ Walker Matthew Henson WC Handy Burke Williams Garrett Morgan Carter G. Woodson Oscar Michelle Andrew Rue Foster Jack Johnson Noble Cecil Ubi Blake Sadie Marcel Alexander Eva B. Dykes Georgiana R. Simpson Bessie Smith Rojo Jack Clipton Reginald Walton Dr. Mordecai Johnson Floyd Joseph Calvin Oscar DePriest Dr. Charles Drew And there are so many more but in the interest of time, I'm not able to name them all Isn't it ironic that the NAACP was founded in 1909? If we are to believe the SPLC chart, that should not have happened at all Also, 1909 was a pivotal year for Durham Dr. James E. Shepherd founded what is today North Carolina Central University How did he manage to do that with Confederate monuments being erected all over the South in the United States? Oh, by the way, the monument in Durham did not exist at that time period. It was not erected until 1924 Why were the monuments and memorials unveiled in the 1960s? Simply, it was the centennial of the war. It had nothing to do with the civil rights movement Does anyone recall Dr. Martin Luther King Or any other people in the movement calling for the removal of Confederate symbols? The answer is no Another issue we must examine is the location of foundries for most of the monuments, memorials and markets Most came from up north or the Midwest They made money from southerners grief and also had no problem advertising to them What is more astounding is that some of the ones that represented soldiers can be found up in the north and the south For an example, this same creation is in New Jersey and in North Carolina The only difference is the belt buckle. So what is the real issue if someone passed by the monument? Is it the fact that this one is down south and represents the Confederacy? If one saw the same soldier in New Jersey Will there be the same reaction? Do you realize that there are memorials dedicated to the union side in the south? Have southerners called for their removal? What do these memorials represent? Historians the media the general public and some organizations are saying that they represent slavery Do you really want to go down that path? It really leaves you open for this question If this is true, then why does anyone want artwork depicting men and women in chains? Exhibitions or museums dedicated to slavery? Wouldn't that be upsetting because if one wants to wipe out the memory of slavery then none of that should happen I think people need to be careful and choose their words wisely Certain states including North Carolina have laws to protect war memorials Unfortunately, there are politicians and people who want the laws changed so that Confederate monuments memorials and markers can be moved or removed It is setting us up on a path of no return I have warned people that we were going down a slippery slope The slope is gone because all statues monuments memorials and markers that deal with any aspect of history are in jeopardy Anyone who finds something offensive now feels that it's fine to vandalize with paint Physically take a sledgehammer or demand the removal of history We are in a sad state of affairs in this country Here is something else to consider What has changed in the cities that remove Confederate symbols? Has the economy improved? How are race relations? How are the schools? Has it improved infrastructures? Are there still homeless and mental health issues? Nothing has changed and let me repeat myself one more time Amazing astronomical amount of money has been expended to remove memorials and nothing has changed And here's additional questions for the committee Why is there an examination of the integrity of people and organizations of the past? Will you examine the integrity of the Africans who sold other Africans into slavery? What about the lawmakers of massachusetts since they were the first state to legalize slavery? What about the integrity of the major slave traders of the north such as james the wolf and his family or the brown brothers? Will there be an examination of the people who lived in the fancy homes of rhod island that financially backed the wolf? How about the integrity of aprim lincoln? He wrote a proclamation that did not free one slave Will you examine the integrity integrity of the lawmakers that created curfews for negroes the term used at the time known as sundown towns? Who had the most sundown towns? california is the answer Ladies and gentlemen, and how will you be judged 25 to 100 years from now? Will people ask the question why didn't this committee examine the issues of modern day slavery of their time period? No one is saying that life was easy in the past The complexity of human beings make history complex. Do we not live in complex times today? And here is something else to consider Some of my friends were concerned about my safety in your city Since people are not held accountable for breaking the law or that the fact that people are allowed to use violence to have their voice heard It's become dangerous for people to discuss to discuss the preservation of history President ronald reagan and the speaker of the house tipponeal Disagreed often, but at the end of the day they could break bread together What has happened to civility in this country? What should happen? Please replace the monument in durham. You must follow the letter of the law However, why doesn't this committee come up with names or more people to honor in durham? And i mean it should include the names of every ethnic group in skin color Please do not just create a list of names of one race as a way of creating racial division or a sense of revenge We should be building up and not tearing down history We live in the united states or have we forgotten that? Have we forgotten the constitution in the first amendment? These monuments memorials and markers are the very essence of freedom of expression Some of you may not agree with them, but it's important to remember that we live in a nation that includes all of us Many of our ethnic backgrounds who came back from fighting on the confederacy Made contributions to this country after the war So once again Remember to build up and not tear down Do not destroy the first amendment the cost will be way too high Thank you Thank you very much You don't mind this one if you could stay there and answer some questions And Cynthia we'd like to start with you if that's all right I don't have one quite yet. Okay. We can go to barbara then. Thank you so much for your presentation I guess My question is that While you were talking about the jim crow era and the number of amazing african-american people who made contributions I don't understand why that wasn't also Set against the obstacles that they were forced to overcome which were very much reflected I think in the desire of Folks who might have supported confederate monuments to maintain white supremacy So i'm trying to understand how as you rightly suggest history is very complex How as you're thinking about that era, how do you balance those two things? The jim crow era was not easy I know that because my parents grew up in the jim crow era The reason why I gave you the names of some of the people that made contributions is was I wanted to let you know That these people were able to overcome that issue and make a contribution I think part of the issue when I talk about complexity Life is just never been easy Anyway, unless you happen to be wealthy and I will tell you one example of how We can twist the history to make it to be what you want it to be Enrichment I'm just giving you an example the commission there Talked about the 1902 virginia state constitution. It was rewritten And it was rewritten To disenfranchise blacks, but it also disenfranchised White people because poor white people people forget that they also struggle The way it was presented to The audience it said it disenfranchised all blacks number one At that time only men could vote Number two there was a clause Actually in the constitution It said if you were black or white and if you fought on either side of the war You had the right to vote And that meant also people that look like me I think the problem is There are some speeches and I know What I'm talking about because I know which one y'all been talking talking about That talk about white supremacy, but you cannot label everyone that way I think it's very interesting That we talk about white supremacy You can't hear me, okay When you talk about white supremacy We don't discuss Some of the reactions And why is it that it's okay To be a black nationalist and nobody questions that but you question the white supremacy History is just too complex. You know people really want to make it Excuse the pond black and white And the other night on the news I listened to a student talk about solid sam And she said You know, it's about civil civil disobedience Just like the civil rights movement. Well, you know, guess what? The people who sat at those lunch panels Made a point without tearing the lunch panel down That's what upset me because she thinks she knows and understands the civil rights movement But the people who were trying to change White supremacy Jim Crow separate by equal These people sat there quietly to make their point That's civil disobedience not acting like a hooligan So I know I probably not answered your question but The whole point of me putting those names in there Even with the issues with Jim Crow That was contributions being made And I had so many more that I wanted to add because I don't want people Thinking that nothing could happen just because people were living through the Jim Crow era My parents lived through it and I was taught Teresa They are good and bad people no matter what race And they never taught me to hate anyone we're now living in What would you want to say? We're we're living in modern hatred. I've never seen anything like it I've never seen anything like it if I could just That that's a wonderful answer. I just want to make sure the other committee members get a chance to ask you questions I think professor greenlee has a question So I want to um come specifically to Durham Because we can talk about national history and we can talk about Northern history and I take your point that certainly slavery existed on american soul outside the south I don't think anyone is disputing that But I want to ask you if you believe that white supremacy was not at all a factor in the erection of the statue in Durham I didn't I have not read the speech for the unveiling So I cannot answer that correctly. I have read other Speeches are unveiling. So I cannot answer to that um my question to you is Did people have a right to Put these up at all Should they not have put them up? I think that people have a right to commemorate in many many ways So my question to you is do you think that these statues still have a place? in Durham And specifically in a landscape where there are not other commemorations that talk about african-american history in this time period I think that confederate history is a part of durin's history But I also think that y'all should come up with a list Of mindments to honor People from all ethnic backgrounds that have made a contribution To this city I think part of the problem that we're dealing with today is that we we we want to bring 21st century and 21st century moral judgment on people of the past. They are gone. They are dead Why don't we move forward? Why don't we move forward? Why why are we why are we concentrating so much on the past? You know a lot these monuments have been out for decades and all of a sudden now it's an issue And yes, maybe some people have been uncomfortable. Do you think there's been no historical opposition to confederate monuments until now? If you let me finish what I had to say I'm very curious about your opinion I said if you let me finish I said i'm sure in the past some people have probably been uncomfortable about it But one of the reasons why we are uncomfortable is because we have been told That there was only one cause to the war that north is good south is bad And people people have not let me tell you as a person who used to be a photo artist Who used to handle textbooks? Let me tell you how was the north was cities The south was agrarian It's that simple The north was coming down the free the the slaves the south wanted to keep the slaves We have oversimplified our history to the point that we're having these discussions today and furthermore Sometimes we don't even talk about any of this history so people have no clue That's why it upset me the other day When I saw that student on tv talking about civil rights movement and talking about civil disobedience and not understanding That The people who were part of the civil rights movement did not destroy and tear down to make a point Thank you. Thank you very much. Um, william do you have a question? Yes, I just want to reiterate that you mainly said the monuments were put up during the anniversaries of the Civil war 150th to 150th. I mean the 50th to 75th during that time and I believe that the centennial right in the centennial and also well I know that uh, I've read that the south didn't have the money to put them up until that time basically Do you agree with that? The south was Devastated by the war so it took them longer and it was and it's really interesting because they are union monuments Well, you know, it's a little hard to talk directly into the microphone when I have to go this way, you know You know, maybe You should turn this, you know, I mean It's a little hard to give you an answer as a meaning over this microphone. And I just say that um Yes, it took it took Southerners longer to put the the monuments up and at the time that these monuments are going up It's not just the south. I mean the north are also commemorating Their side in the history and as I said before they're also union monuments in the south now Everybody wants to talk about the Southerners want to continue to fight the war. Do you see any Southerners out here? Protests and saying, you know, we just got to take away those union monuments that are here in the south you you don't hear that you don't see that I think there's room for all the monuments no matter what it's a part of our history and do you think Taking down confederate monuments and memorials are going to change Race relations because I I got news for you. It's not It's not what we're doing is focusing on things that People don't really want to to deal with so we're talking about poverty We're talking about schools We're talking about mental health issues. I mean, why the heck are we even here at all? You know, there are other more important things going on in our country that we should be focusing on We really should be and one of the things we need to focus on is we need to understand That you may not always agree and part of the issue we're dealing with and I'm sorry I'm going on a tangent, but since I have the microphone. I'm going to tell you what exactly I'm feeling right now It's the lack of discipline for the younger generation You know, we can't always As Rolling Stones say at what we want You can't always give what you want. You need to understand. No, you need to understand that You know, certain things happen and you just can't have your way and have a temper tantrum and act out And that's what we're seeing today There are better ways for discourse for a way to have a discussion. Thank you. Um, professor Lee I thank you for your reminder of the ways in which slavery is a northerner Northerner in a national institution rather than just a regional southern institution. I appreciate those remarks I wonder if you could comment on the I mean, you Cynthia brought up the issue of the Durham monument specifically And you noted that you hadn't read the dedication speeches and I wondered if you could comment more generally on the united daughters of the confederacy and the Historical interpretation they had Of slavery the civil war and reconstruction and that they promoted at the turn of the century. So work by Karen Cox at UNC Charlotte and also James McPherson at Princeton They really emphasize the ways in which the the historical story that the united united daughters of the confederacy put forward focused on slavery as a benevolent institution And then focused on Also during the reconstruction period the ways in which the Ku Klux Klan Saved the south and so I wondered if you could comment on those historical narratives So you're talking about this article here No, um, there's a book that Karen Cox wrote on the united daughters of that book Now are you are you asking me to speak as an archivist On this topic Well, actually one of the interesting things in our book is she noted and I didn't realize this before she noted the ways in which That the daughters really promoted the creation of an archive to commemorate their memory of the civil war Mm-hmm. Well that that archives did not come until later um not until 1957 I'm also speaking so when I mentioned okay why I'm asking you I need to understand how you want me to answer this. Do you want me to answer this as an archivist? um Or how do you want me to do you want me to answer? No, not necessarily as an archivist. So you are you are Talking about the meaning of these monuments And you were saying that you didn't specifically know about the Durham monument because You didn't look specifically at the dedication speeches. No, I didn't I didn't read them I didn't I did not read the the The particulars those particular speeches um I'm not sure how to answer this about the united daughters of the confederacy because To understand the united daughters of confederacy. It was more than just about history Uh, they were they were founded to help confederate veterans and their families And then um, they will actually um Come up with with specific things that they wanted to do Now The reason why i'm hesitating Is i'm trying to figure out if you want me just to talk about the history of the udc The reason why they did what they did is because Some of them live through reconstruction and they live through the racial tension and They also knew that the people who When the war get to write the history and so what they wanted is they wanted to make sure that No one forgot the southern side of the history or to understand the complexity and I don't have time to go into the whole history of the original Pucas clan because we'll be here all night but I think I'm in i'm having difficulty explaining this only because I really want to go into a whole lot of detail And we don't have the time to do that. We would I mean if you if you would like I mean we'd be happy to enter into a correspondence with you if you want to go on if you if you'd like to make Answers that are more substantive. I would because because it You're asking me to talk about an organization. That's over a hundred years old And specifically about their historical narratives about slavery being a benevolent institution enslaved people siding with their masters during the war and Well, here's a question To ask you when you talk about this whole benevolence and and the enslaved people you know That was a time for slaves to actually rise up And and leave Why didn't they Why didn't they and We can't help our Certain group of people in the past felt about history and let me let me be perfectly clear about something about the udc Everybody's been harping on how they Were trying to keep history a certain way. Well, I guess that didn't work out too well Did it Were there in 2018 what's going on if they truly had as much power as as everybody keeps writing about and talking about We live in the south Why why is it that we do not have that narrative these days? I could thank you if I could I'm gonna pass I'm gonna pass also. There might be some other people who'd like to make comments. I actually do have a question I'm gonna follow up with the udc. I was wondering you had suggested that the Statues weren't erected with racist intentions Instead it was really just to commemorate the 75th and the 50th anniversary of the end of the war the beginning of the war And I'm wondering the udc also promoted and was behind they sponsored the erection the attempted erection of a mammy statue in 1923 one year before now the the statue was actually The the bill to do it was it was introduced by a congressman from north caroline and ultimately it didn't pass It was rejected in the house Can I finish my question can I finish my question, please? So I'm wondering This mammy statue would that have been a reflection of racist intentions in your mind had it been created Or was this something different that that not represent white supremacy a mammy statue Or was this just another kind of statue that would be created to somehow celebrate a version of the south I cannot answer that question I cannot and the reason why i'm not going to answer that question is that The statue doesn't exist. So what's the point of even discussing it? The point is just to to think about because the udc did try the udc did try to create it so we can get the intent Let's talk back on the history of these confederate monuments. Okay Confederate monuments started going up Don't smile at me like that confederate monuments started going up by the ladies memorial prefer that I frown Yes, actually They started going up with the ladies memorial association The reason why the udc becomes so involved in these monuments is because they had the time and and the income to do this kind of work and When you look at there were businesses that were involved There were local and state governments It was not only the udc then the udc ends up being put on most of these monuments because they wrote raised most of the money for these people because I can tell you right now On the udc were involved in different kind of monument associations And they took them over because a lot of times men could not raise the funds They didn't have the ability There's one enrichment that took multiple years because the men started to raise the funds They couldn't do it. So they turned it over to the women the women had the ability to do this They did they they were able to raise the funds and you know people Are so hung up On the past that we cannot move forward. That's all I have to say Um, Jacob, would you I don't have a question Stephanie I have a response to a statement you made earlier about There were many opportunities for slave rebellions. However, why didn't they ever rise up? because very often there were traders that would inform the White supremacist slave owners About slaves organizing for rebellion and get everyone killed So they had to deal with dissension from within And individuals that were seeking their own individual personal advancement I understand that some of that happened, you know, no matter what I say My words either get twisted or misinterpreted. So let's move on to the next question Elizabeth Okay. Well to think about the this particular committee's charge about making recommendations for What to do now? We are in a position where There is a great deal of animosity towards this particular statue and If we think about trying A lot of there's a lot of discussion right now about recontextualizing Adding additional pieces around it So I'd be interested to hear your thoughts about How the history is taught Using statues and commemorations in the public space as a teaching tool and What if you were to put statues of Other individuals or a generic statue to recognize groups of people Does that does that how do you achieve a balance to tell the complexity of the history that you're trying to talk about? Well, you have a recommendation to give our committee. I mean first thing I would do Is As I said in it, you know, just put that monument back up of some some version of it And I hope that you as the committee will come up with some names and some subjects to commemorate your history in Durham I think that We have to learn to be adults about artwork artwork Has many interpretations to people And what's happening now Because there's so much anger About these confederate monuments. Do you know what I hear almost daily? Well, we need to take down everything that has to do with Martin Luther King Anything that has to do with Malcolm X Because people are making this to be such a racial issue That you're causing more racial division in your city and across this country We have got to learn to live with each other and understand the complexity of the history and understand that we may not always like everything that we see In our city that I mean, that's that's that's the plain thing. You know When I drive through Petersburg There are monuments That i'm not particularly fond of but I don't think about you know, they just got to be removed because I don't like them We are dealing with artwork whether you like it or not Whether you like the style of it or not Act has always been interpretation of one's feelings And sometimes you may not like it, but that doesn't mean you tear it down or destroy it Ms. Rohn, thank you so much for a really thought-provoking discussion and presentation And I especially like the point that you make about This idea of applying contemporary values to historical moments And so I'm really curious about What you might have to say that would help us to get a stronger grasp of the values that were at play When these confederate monuments were erected, so I wonder if it's okay. I'll ask you another historical question So I'm really curious about the extent to which people of color were involved in The creation of the monuments so the extent to which they might have been consulted in the design Or maybe even the extent to which they contributed their money to the creation of these Is there anything as an archive as an archivist that you might be able to tell us on that score? I don't know How much they contribute To them. I don't I don't because all you see are names of people and and the money that they contribute I do know that they did attend some of these unveilings Um and I know that they were also some of them were also involved In the unveiling and some of them were involved in in the building of of of these these monuments Um I don't know what else to say, but I mean I have seen documentation I have seen photographs of people of color I'm at these monuments. I think what is happening is we want to make people that look like us one-dimensional And and and we black folks African-Americans their gross color whatever you want to call us We're just as complex as anyone else And we we make these assumptions That and and this is for everything we make assumptions that all white people think one way all black people think this way All why do we do that? Why do we do that? Why why do we do that? I mean It just irritates me. Okay. I just I just It just irritates me No one is one-dimensional No, you know, nothing is worse than someone looking at me and saying well, you know Black people that are that and they look at me to confirm that that's true. I cannot speak for my entire race No one can speak for the entire race But somehow or another we're supposed to Now you and I may or may not agree But that's okay. That's okay. That makes us complex human beings and frankly, I'm sick and tired of everybody assuming that everybody think the same way Can I ask you a quick follow-up to to professor rosa's question? Speaking specifically of Durham and the history around the creation of the Durham statue The There was a fundraising campaign by the sons of confederate veterans and the united daughters of the confederacy But it wasn't enough to pay for the statue. So They went to the legislature to get a tax Levy to pay for the statue at that time african-americans couldn't vote So they were taxed without the ability to express their opinions via the vote Is that something that we should be as a committee should be taking into account that this was a statue that was created when A good portion of the population was not able to express their opinions I think that's a trick question because they're dead I mean we we can't help how things were done in the past Your committee should be moving forward, you know I think we have one more follow-up if uh professor greenlee Um, I had a follow-up. Um, sarone So do you believe that there are ever any circumstances in which a confederate monument should be taken down or removed? No, because it is it's freedom of expression. It is it is the first amendment and I feel the same way that we should keep on statues that are up to martin luther king or anybody else that's important to history I just wanted to ask uh from your, uh, I guess experience as an archivist and historian what's your understanding of the purpose of Instituting gem crow specifically in the south after emancipation and after african-americans made significant progress in a lot of ways and uh, what is your understanding for the purpose of that happening and Why it was done You know, I I wish I could answer Let me just be quite honest here Your committee is not going to move forward because you're hung up on gem crow Well, the reason we're here is because neo nazis rallied organize a rally around the statue in charlotte'sville and someone was murdered And do you understand the complexity of what happened in charlotte'sville? Well, were they living in the past? Let me tell you something since you brought up charlotte'sville Okay, since I don't think that Anyone here or any Non-white supremacists caused what's happening now. Let me let me explain something because There are certain people who think this is about race Think that what's about race? Wait a minute. Let me finish You asked a question. Let me finish. Let me tell you zaka what happened in charlotte'sville because what the media told you And what happened were two different things Okay, do you have a response to the gem crow question? No because I'm tired of talking about gem crow Okay, if we could just keep the comments until after our speaker has finished. Thank you so much um I actually spoke in front of the city council in charlotte'sville because They were talking about removing the lee monument And so one of the things I brought up was that December 29th, 1862 Lee signed a document To free the slaves at all into roma coke and white house um, because he was the executor of his father-laws will and so I showed him that document Unfortunately, nobody really cared about that and so what has happened Since everyone says these monuments were put up for gem crow white supremacy. We have brought out people That Perhaps we wouldn't know about and on that faithful day We had three groups converging In there you you had you had the group as we know it as all white black lives matter and antifa And the police was told to stand down And then they pushed all three crowds into each other What do you think it's going to happen? If the police is told to stand down, what do you think is going to happen? Exactly what happened and now When we talk about these miners all we talk about is charlotte'sville And none of that would have happened in the first place if The politicians in that sea had not brought up the issue with the miners in the first place Because torn that city apart They are financially that the politicians bring up the issue with the monuments or the citizens There was the one that started it all That is that an elected official That that that is true. So they represent the people. I think unfortunately we are out of time for questions. My co-chair Dr. McKesson Melton would like to say something I just wanted to point out and I think stephanie's point in mentioning charlotte'sville What was because of the close proximity to the time factor of our monument being pulled down Just wanted to make a point of order there So, um, it is time for public comment. I think we have 10 names on the list We'll just go straight down as you might remember And you can see on the agenda you have three minutes. I will be timing. So the first person up is james chevus After him will be james ward and then bob johnson. We'll go right down the list If I can request the co-chairs if you don't mind Can we ask if the commenters specify they live in derm just before they speak really quick derma? They've already left their information. Okay Good afternoon I'm a 63 year old veteran from derm And I like to know I know our black history Because I was back there in that time That monument that y'all were talking about downtown Um meant more than just what some of y'all thinking It was a racial on the white side with the cuckoo clans And she brought a part of it And this is what I want this community to look at That was two part And those ignorant folks that went down there Did not understand because they was only looking for a racial tension And if you all that's up here today to claim that y'all historically you would know what i'm talking about Blacks were gray if you want to call us black back then We were the confederate and the confederate army. We were the gray Why did we wear the gray? No one not even the media Or any one of you all have said why did our blacks back then join the confederate army? And that's what you all need to be considering Why y'all saying not to put it back or we should put it back Because it was for the blacks as well as the whites And that's the separation. It's always looking on the white side And we blacks are not standing up and said it's on our black side as well So it's two in one and it needs to go back up. Thank you Thank you very much James ward I'm james ward. I'm a former resident of Durham Having lived on eat his street and attended ek post school several years ago Therefore i'm interested in what happens in Durham This situation with the confederate memorial began over a year ago when a lawless mob tore down the statue while law enforcement stood down Presumably on the orders of the mayor and the sheriff This travesty continued at the trial when the charges were dismissed or the part is found not guilty Because of the incompetence of the district attorney's office The result is that this whole process has enraged thousands of citizens in Durham county and across the state And it all smacks of a sort of a third world justice system And we have just seen what this lawless attitude can lead to with the riot the other night by various anarchists and ultra leftist groups at UNC That mob took their cue from the Durham mob They had no fear of retribution from the courts and just like the kkk years ago They were shrouded in masks and worked in the dark of night to disrupt the peace and vandalize public property There's no telling where this will go if government officials do not take a stand This committee committee now has the opportunity to do just that First by issuing a statement condemning the actions in Durham and the disgraceful act in Chapelville Second by following the law and recommending that the statue be replaced on its base That can possibly be contextual plaques on the same site As long as all parties agree on the wording and narrative. I think this also would add a layer of protection to the site This is a compromise But it is the only way forward for Durham to get from under this cloud of disrespect and distrust that hangs over its citizens Replacing the statue will also show that Durham believes in the principles of law and order And the city is accepting of the views and history of all its citizens Thank you Thank you very much Bob Johnson is next and after that the yvonne Coleman and lisa griffin Johnson will will move on To yvonne Coleman and lisa griffin Good evening. First of all, thank you for all the hours that you have spent in considering this charge that you have um I am a resident of Durham as are my my friends and colleagues with me our interest is in Honoring those that haven't been honored And we're asking the committee as you consider the other part of your charge of what else should we be doing To recognize those who have made a contribution to this community And who indeed were were loved and respected by a larger majority of the community And we are speaking specifically of baba chuck davis We're asking you as you contemplate What our community should be about and we are certainly very very supportive of public art Unfortunately, the rest of the community has embraced that over the last several years But we would like to strongly recommend consideration Of those who have contributed to our community 30 40 years in a contemporary context And chuck davis name should be on that list. So thank you Thank you Tom beach and after that would be I need to put on my glasses brinder barringer And then jay barringer I'd like I'd like to read a Part of a speech that I found These are not my words and I quote I will say then that I am not Nor ever have been in favor of bringing about In any way the social and political equality Of the white and black races That I am not Nor ever have been in favor of making voters and jurors of negroes Nor qualifying them to hold office Nor to inter marry with white people I will say in addition to this That there is a physical difference between the white and black races Which I believe will forever forbid the two races to live together on terms of social and political equality And in as much as they cannot so live While they do remain together There must be a position of superior and inferior And I as much as any other man Am in favor of having the superior position Assigned to the white race Now I ask you are those the words of the bigot A racist a white supremacist Would surprise you if I told you those words were said by General Nathan Bedford forest In Memphis, Tennessee on august 1st 1871 That would be a lie They were said by Abraham Lincoln September 18th 1858 In Charleston, Illinois Those were the opening remarks Of the fourth debate between him And Stephen Douglas So Are we going to tear down the um Lincoln Memorial? I mean the guy is a white supremacist It's right sesso right here Let's bring it back to Durham James B. Duke I believe he was a slave owner We had a lot of money Perhaps we should start tearing down his statue on the quad Maybe we should take down that beautiful chapel Who cares if it was designed By a very well known black New York architect In 1930 While we're at it we might as well tear down The whole university Because that's made of slave labor Why not tear down the medical center Durham Regional Hospital And all the clinics out here There goes your tens of millions of dollars of free health care to the Indigent Work And those who are here in this country illegally Let me remind you that your three minutes is up so if you could wrap up shortly My third point is this Culture and heritage are inherently different We cannot Charge the past By our feelings of the present Heritage is what we bring to the table From our families and our ancestors 120,000 North Carolina men and boys Went off to war 19,000 of them never returned That statue Really says one little thing to the men and boys who wore the gray Thank you. Thank you very much Brenda Beringer Jay Beringer And I'm not sure Cogburn Isaac Evening ladies and gentlemen, I'm Brenda Beringer, native of Durham County Peter A. for Clannis of the News and Observer wrote Much of the attitude of the so-called activist today is based on a flawed view of history They look upon history from the present to the past And thus judge the people of the past based on the culture of the present But they don't live their lives that way. None of us do We all live our lives from the present to the future The people of the past live their lives from the present from their present to their future We should judge them accordingly History is tragedy Not melodrama And we all have feet of clay Martin Luther, the great German theologian especially in his later writings, was clearly anesthmatic And he said of the Jews and I'm quoting We are at fault for not slaying them I advise all their prayer books and Talmudic writings be taken from them set fire to their synagogues Berry and cover with dirt what will not burn But without the reformation We might all still be paying indulgences to the Catholic Church Dr. Martin Luther King opposed gay marriage In 1958 Dr. King was writing a column for Ebony magazine He received a letter from an anonymous writer I am a boy but feel about boys the way I ought to feel about girls I don't want my parents to know what can I do Dr. King told the boy his problem wasn't uncommon but required careful attention The type of feeling you have towards boys is probably not an innate tendency But something that has been culturally acquired Dr. King wrote you are already on the road towards a solution since you honestly recognize the problem And have a desire to solve it Will people of the future call him a homophobe or anti-gay? Does this mean I have the right to tear down his monument and desecrate his grave? Does anyone have the moral right to do so? No, I do not. No, we do not Durham native Julian S. Carr Confederate veteran did so much wrong But he did a good deal right He made that speech with that vile quote that we hear today No moral being today can consider these words about horse whipping a negro winch anything but vile Accounts vary. We're at three minutes. I'm sorry to interrupt you. We are at three minutes. So if you could wrap up Thank you business historians view Carr as a pioneer in the development of tobacco factories and textiles meals He was among the first mill owners to employ African Americans He was an advocate of women's suffrage and helped launch the career of john merrick of north carolina mutual life insurance company Quoting sister helen pre-gene People are more than the worst things they have ever done in their lives Generally statue was removed from duke chapel, but he owned no slaves George washington duke statue still sits at the entrance of duke's east campus Mr. Duke was a confederate veteran and owned a slave girl No need to list mr. Duke's contribution contributions to Durham by today's standards We could call martin luther anesthmatic dr. King anti-gay julian car white supremacist Washington duke slave owner. Do they deserve to disappear from our past? I quote c s louis of all tyrannies a tyranny exercise for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive Oppressive it may be better to live under robber barons than omnipotent moral busy bodies Thank you. Thank you very much. Next up is jay barringer And then codburn isaac and last page mccullough As my name is jay barringer and i am from watts hospital In Durham chapel hill and nationwide history and truth are being excised by charlatans who profess a moral high ground To define what is and is not offensive But as southern writer flannery o'connor observed the truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it Now despite spurious claims by politicians academics clergy and communist dupes The truth is that the confederate monuments are tributes to the soldierly virtues Honor chivalry and sacrifice Yet Monument haters mystically channeled trees and racism and white supremacist through the decades as the motivation for confederate monuments The mantra that works of art were dedicated to promote jim crow or to oppose civil rights Is a canard advanced by the southern poverty law center Which jends up as much profit as racial discord Historian michael armstrong reported that the splc contradicts its own cook data to advance the white supremacist fairytale He said the data was intentionally manipulated on the confederate monument timeline in order to buttress a false Allegation that the main motivation for the building of confederate monuments was racism Now buddhist temples and christian churches Are destroyed by radical jihadists Lawless attacks on veterans monuments with the tacit imprimatur of feckless elected officials and law enforcement are blatant historical revisionism Reminiscent of the ancient roman practice of damnatio memory A george mason university economics professor walter williams noted The challenges of rewriting american history are endless going beyond relatively trivial challenges Such as finding new pictures for our currency The job of tyrants and busy bodies is never done when they accomplish one goal They move their agenda to something else Now the quest for an ideologically chaste history is interminable if past events are subject to malleable definitions of modern Interpretation what's next? Maybe car borough to erase julian car from collective memory Despite praise from shallow university graduate and car contemporary wg person Who said quote car meant more to the black populace in derm than any other person in the city Now knowing that their crimes will be tolerated the thugs who pulled down the monuments here and in chapel hill Should turn their self righteous tantrum against duke university Prior to service in the confederate navy washington duke bought one slave and rented another Duke chapel still has statues sure to offend Delicate sensibilities thomas jefferson owned slaves sydney leneer served in the confederate army theologian martin luther made anti-semitic comments Now duke's administration and clergy delight in the empty niches So rioters should have no problem there but Be careful in the quest for a monument free landscape Warwell's character winston said in 1984 One could not learn history from architecture Any more than one could learn it from books statues inscriptions memorial stones the names of streets anything that might throw light upon the past Had been systematically altered your three minutes is up, but i'll allow you to can finish. I'm wrapping her up Please do the right thing and restore the confederate monument here. I stand God bless the memory of all southern veterans and god bless america I'm logan isaac my handwriting sucks I wish I could prepare something, but there's the first meeting i've been able to attend Since the committee began its work To answer a question. I was a resident of north durham until recently And part of that is irrevocably tied up in the comments and the The commentary that followed my advocacy for veterans when durham Durham monument was torn down and again recently a silent sam was torn down I was told to de-center myself as a white person The fact that I was an enlisted member of the army for six years including service in an illegal and increasingly unpopular war Was not important to peep to progressives in particular When I spoke up against discrimination harassment bias at duke and filed two federal Complaints and watched as the incompetency of two executive agencies failed to find any Wrongdoing despite the excessive detail I displayed I had to look elsewhere The fact is my wife found a job and we're now living in baltimore, but the fact is also that I was I was partially driven out of durham because my voice as a veteran is not welcome Um, there's an important distinction between generic monuments and specific monuments Robert e lee spoke against putting up statues in order to keep to refrain from keeping the wounds of war open It was robert e lee on the statue in charlotteville On the durham monument. It said the boys who wore the gray that is a derogatory term That indicates to I think most any decent historian that those are enlisted members people who are poor People are largely white but not exclusively white and who largely didn't have much of a say in what wars they fought any more than I did 90,000 men were drafted into the confederate army and so to attribute the kind of Intent that we seem to be doing seems ill-fated furthermore public Statues are like art the creators only have so much say over its interpretation And frankly, I don't want to give car or the udc any more power than they deserve We get to decide what those monuments mean And for me as a combat vet that was not just a generic monument That is a human being the representative of a human being like me getting a rope thrown around its neck and torn down The same is true of silent sam Nobody cares that was actually created by a canadian sculptor and that UNC paid 10 times the amount to have a cookie cutter statue put up All that matters is what car said and frankly that gives car far too much power over how we Today right now interpret history What i'm concerned with in my recommendation to the committee and something that I found out as an advocate for veterans Is that the state is on track to be the highest concentration of veterans by 2020? We have zero zero laws in the north carolina general statutes protecting veterans When hb2 came up and a lot of progressives got up in arms Nobody mentioned except for one outsider in the huffington post that two public accommodation Ordinances in nearby counties were also affected Three minutes. So thank you Um by 2020 we'll have more veterans in any other state in the nation and when that happens I hope that we'll use this learning moment regardless of what we do with the monument to think more critically about not just how Monuments operate in a public space But how veterans are perceived and received and protected or not protected in our state and especially in our city. Thank you Thank you One last speaker page Thank you. I also Just found out about the public forum and I want to thank each of you for your time on the committee I'm from north durham. I've um live in bahama I'm from michigan originally, but I've lived in north carolina for over 25 years Proud of durham. I tell everyone up north how proud of I am of durham black wall street Bennett point My mother-in-law has served in the udc udc honors their fathers husbands and sons To this day, they still honor husbands and sons and fathers that served My mother-in-law also honors veterans modern-day veterans With descendants that served in the civil war with gold stars and they have honorary ceremonies Our history is rich I feel when the statue was torn down We were on the national stage And we failed we looked pathetic We had so much hate and rage We didn't even demonstrate properly because we live in a country with free speech Free speech and free demonstration We didn't show that at all I like your idea about incorporating all races And maybe the committee should consider that You wreck re erect the statue and maybe have another committee formed That can give input on all races and um, and maybe even You know show what happened a year ago with the statue being down Maybe show that in a point of history too Because that'll show how durham overcame and united instead of being divided It would be nice to show the national stage that durham is moving forward With maybe a new statue and having a committee showing all races and we we did it together And no one was left out I learned a lot tonight. I thank everyone for their comments and especially your work You know, I do feel the kin some of the committee members may have a little condescending looks when when when items were discussed and You know, maybe you shouldn't go to mammy's kitchen in south carolina because that is existing live and People go there all day long and I do want to find out more fact-checking And I am planning to attend another public forum and in the dates to come So thank you and thank you for letting me speak. Thank you We have time so you'd like to speak that's page That's page. Oh, I'm sorry. Oh, we we messed up It's okay. I mean, I just want no problem. I thought I had a new page. So yeah, okay Okay, so my name is page mccullough and I've lived for 40 years in my beloved durham I am a direct descendant of three white men who fought for the confederate army against the united states of america colonel james mccullough led the 16th south carolina volunteers Lieutenant james harvey merriman served in the 7th north carolina cavalry in the mountains of north carolina And major john stewart walker died on july 1st 1862 in the battle of melbourne hill while serving in the 15th virginia infantry I am not a member of the udc, but I would say i'm overqualified to be I was raised in a In a family steeped in genealogy and pride of ancestors Who served in as my grandmother would say the war of northern aggression? I grew up on a farm that was the remnant of a plantation Where my ancestors owned and enslaved at least 80 human beings I like many white southerners have walked by statues and other monuments honoring the men who fought for the confederacy And as a young person I never thought twice about it However, I have learned about all A lot of horrible truths about slavery and about the motivations of leaders in the south that led to the civil war It is clear in several of the state declarations for secession That the war was fought to maintain an economy based on slave labor Now I no longer ignore these statues and memorials Placed in prominent public places of honor in communities across the south I think these memorials including those in durham in public places Should be moved to museums private property or perhaps battlefields Where their origin and meaning can be explained No one in our communities. No one should be made to feel Denigrated by having to walk by a memorial on public grounds Paid for by all of us To honor a war that fought to keep their ancestors in chains and without human rights. Thank you Thank you the the person that spoke what can we just make sure we get your name And yeah, no you in the black and the white stripe before page Yes, okay. Thank you. Oh, she's there. I got it. Move down the list. Okay No problem Well, we have about a half an hour for committee discussion or comment and So I don't know if Do you want to have one more speaker? Sure, we have time. I do believe we'd love to have your name and And contact information if if you could once you finish Thank you for extending the time a little bit. I'll keep it short. My name is Raul Jimenez I was one of the defendants last year Um I was arrested and tried for toppling the confederate monument and I was found not guilty I will say and clarify some things to miss Teresa. I'm sorry. I forgot your name. I am a local activist I am not focusing my My work on the past. I'm focusing my work on the present I'm focusing my work on the fact that white supremacy still exists and it still reigns supreme in this country There's a reason why black people are poor and disenfranchised. There's a reason why immigrants are disenfranchised There's a reason why my family had to come here and without any documents in 1997 Because white supremacy has continued to push people of color immigrants muslims down They have continued to fight Against us and so therefore we must fight back You mentioned that there was no violence during the civil civil rights era. However, we know that at ant There was a rebellion at a high school led by ant Students and high school students We know that the Greensboro massacre was a violent uprising against the activists I'm sorry. Let me rephrase that. We know that the Greensboro four died Because they were fighting against white supremacy and it was white supremacists who murdered them You know that there have been many people who have been murdered by white supremacists And so that's why we fight That's why we tear down monuments and we tear them down And the community tears them down. I should clarify Because there is no way for these monuments to come down There is a law that was passed in 2015 led by republicans And the legislature that did not allow anybody to take proper action to take these monuments down now This was not a mob And the community and all the news outlets Chancellor Ford will tell you that it was a mob It was a community That fought against and it's continued to continuing to fight against white supremacy And as long as white supremacy exists, we will continue to fight it as long as there are monuments and symbols to hatred to racism It will continue to fight and honestly If that statue comes back up Be sure that the community of Durham will tear it back down because it has no place in our community And that is not a threat. I apologize. That's not the medicine But it is just to say that the community showed that we don't want white supremacy here Not only in august 14th, but on august 18th where there were their own lives My own life was threatened by white supremacists who Who decided that they wanted to rally in Durham and we showed them that we don't want white supremacy here In fact, there's white supremacists threatened to come and do a vigil at silent sam on august 30th And so You know They've doxxed us They've Told people where we live where we work That's not fair Thank you. Thank you 25 minutes that for committee discussion if there is any other Items of business that people want to discuss or questions I would like to say something about the um the points Uh that some pro statue um individuals make about For example, Robert E. Lee, Julian Carr, Duke, um how they How do I phrase it? Um They freed their slaves or they contributed to the black community And I think this is a very deceptive psychological manipulation and um, I would want to be sure to alert black people to understand that as a demonstration of These individuals' belief in white supremacy and white superiority because they have the nerve to suggest And to frame the situation that after all their unjust treatment That they then did you a favor and to try to Flip the perception so that people see You know so that there's some kind of balance or to add some kind of good to their actions towards these people so I I want I want to be sure to understand that as that I see it as people saying that You're inferior and Without us You wouldn't have these things Where in fact There's no reason to value any of their contributions or actions of freeing Or will he freed his slaves after they served him and worked the labor or The dukes, you know I'm asked all this wealth that they still own and control And you know have contributed some institutions to the community But if it what we're not for them having been enslaved things like that we wouldn't have been necessary So there's no I just want to make sure that My perception is that we should not give that equal value and I think it's a demonstration of the inherent internalized superiority complex Any other comments or questions I'd just like to point out that our next meeting is on september 5th It's going to be at the rougemont ruritan club With elizabeth schulman who is an archivist with the north carolina collection of the durham public library On september 13th, we're going to be meeting in the bullpen at american underground Our guest speaker is going to be scott holmes. Uh, who's going to be speaking on the legality of confederate statues On september 27th, we'll be at the north regional public library with patrick muklow Who is the executive director of the museum of durham history? And our last formal meeting is on october 11th back here in the city council chambers Our speaker is to be to be determined But um, you are all welcome to come to any and all of these events. We also have a facebook page A twitter feed. We have um an email address. You can also write us real old-fashioned letters, if you'd like Um, we are very eager to hear people's opinions and people's stories. So please don't hesitate to Contact us and thank you all so much for coming and thank you again to our speaker. Um, miss teresa ron for for coming Thank you so much