 Hi, everyone. Welcome to what the F is going on in Latin America. This is Code Pink's weekly webinar, 20 Minutes of Hot News out of Latin America and the Caribbean. We broadcast every Wednesday, 9 a.m. Pacific, 12 p.m. Eastern on Code Pink's YouTube channel. Today, in the aftermath of the police killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis, we are honored to be in conversation with Ajama Baraka about the systemic changes needed within the U.S. and outside the U.S. regarding U.S. militarization of both domestic and foreign policy. But first, I want to introduce our guest to you. Ajama Baraka is the National Organizer for Black Alliance for Peace. He's the member of the leadership for UNAT, United National Anti-War Coalition, and he is on the Executive Committee of the U.S. Peace Council. And I should also fully disclose I voted for you for Vice President. And I remember having a great conversation with you about that at an airport in Latin America. Yes. Yeah, when I had the pleasure of meeting you quite by coincidence. It was a wonderful afternoon to have a conversation with you. Well, thank you very much, Teri. It's really a pleasure to be with you. Well, I'm so happy you accepted the invitation. It's a real honor to be in conversation with you today. And I know all of us on the Code Pink Latin America team really value your work and the legacy of your resume and life that you bring to this work. And so you have so much experience to share with us and a great personal history to bring to this moment we're living in in the United States right now. And I wonder if perhaps we could just start with what we're seeing, what this spontaneous combustion has been or what a lot of people in the U.S. are seeing as a spontaneous combustion in as a result of George Floyd's murder by the Minneapolis police. Well, you know, Teri, it is a very, very interesting moment. And it's always important when you see resistance and the spontaneous, as you refer to it, reaction to the killing of George Floyd was something that, you know, really can't just be understood by looking at the case of George Floyd. I think it was a trigger, Teri. I think that there was a lot of frustration, a lot of anger in the populace. I think a lot of people were feeling that the value of their lives were not really recognized. And so with this gruesome image of the police authorities killing this human being, it sparked a reaction. And so the claim and call was for justice for George Floyd. But in a way, I kind of see it almost as a metaphor because it was really a call for justice for the people. It was a reaction to the systemic unfairness that people were seeing the assault on the dignity of people when it was quite clear that the authorities were more concerned saving the economy than saving lives and driving people back to work. It was the memory of all that we have seen the U.S. involved in and degrading people around the world from sanctions against them as well to invading directly countries like Afghanistan and Iraq. So it almost was a culmination of all of these issues that took people into the streets. And it's that basis that I think has sustained the energy as the unarticulated concerns and angers, you know, are now slowly pivoting to a articulation of opposition to the system itself. But what we're seeing in some ways, Terry, is a U.S. specific kind of expression very similar to what we saw unfold in France with the Yellow Vests, that the spark was a pinch of reform. But then it began to quickly pivot to an assessment and a combination of the neoliberal order itself. You know, the people in France have been so, when you watch journalists just interview pretty much anybody protesting on the streets, every one of them is so articulate about the system they're protesting. I mean, they understand the privatization of central banks and they have a very, very sophisticated understanding of what they're living within and why they can't succeed, so to speak. You know, there's a couple of things that you mentioned, the unveiling of failures of this system in the United States, systemic unfairness. Do you, you know, it's been interesting to watch what this unveiled, I think, to a lot of people, particularly younger people here in the United States that this massive push to privatization is massive support for neoliberal capitalism has denied so many people, good working people of all ages, of all racial demographics, economic and educational demographics. It's denied so many people access to healthcare, to, you know, substantive housing, you know, the basic necessities you need to fight this pandemic, clean water for God's sakes in many communities isn't available. Do you think that the pandemic has helped unveil this failure of the system to a much broader demographic in this country? I think so Teri, I think that precisely what I'm referring to that the, you know, you can't really understand the cry for justice for George Floyd without in fact connecting that to what every one of us seeing happening around the country as a consequence of the pandemic. The inability or reluctance of the authorities of ruling class to really look out for the objective human rights and human needs of the population. Everyone I think felt the consequence of being seen as an essence, a cog and something that was beyond them that they really completely didn't understand. So I think that what we have with this uprising is a recognition, the developing recognition, a radicalization, if you will, of the general population and in particular among the young folks, you know, people are trying to understand why you had such a outpouring of solidarity and support among young folks and among young white folks. And I think part of it was that the cultural shift is taking place where people are understanding the full complexities and deep character of white supremacy, but also an understanding that white supremacy just cannot be reduced just to the attitudes of people's heads, but there in fact is a systemic element to this. And so that understanding of white supremacy and connecting that to the contradictions of capitalism is I think what's helping to sustain the energy and helping to make this pivot away from just a focus on one individual to back to the system, back to the structures of relations. And that process is a process that is very, very scary to the authorities because as I said in one of my pieces, the nightmare situation for the authorities is to see the emergence of a multinational and multi-racial opposition under the leadership of African Americans. So, you know, they are doing everything that they can do now to break up that possibility, to break up that developing coalition, including trying to keep the focus just on the issue of race. And that's why they brought in a Reverend Sharpton and they're trying to bring in other elements to try to put them on top of something that they really didn't have any real connection to. So, you know, this is a very interesting time. And Terry, for us, coming out of our community, understanding the international connections between the state and oppression domestically and militarized policing domestically and the militarization and war-mongering taking place by the US authorities globally. You know, we have to help those connections be made. And you can talk about, for example, defunding the police in the US and then talk about defunding the military apparatus, divesting from militarism. So, these connections have to be made and I think they'd be made. I think that, you know, I heard a, oh gosh, there's a couple of things you said that I'd like us to follow up on. This movement we're seeing today and it is, at least the rallies and protests I've gone to, it's been principally younger people, people younger than me, I will say. But they have embraced my presence. It being multi-generational, multi-ethnic, multi, you know, all a real cross-section of demographics in the country, which historically the state has really, I believe has used racism, you know, to keep people divided. And I have, a lot of us have always said, you know, once white working class people figure out that they're suffering the same failures of the state as people of color, there's gonna be a problem when that all comes together as one big melting pot of understanding. And I think that's exactly what we're seeing now and why the militarized response is so strong and you've got the military trying to solve these problems that are more economic and humanitarian and they don't necessarily, they cannot be solved just by beating people down. And I think a lot of younger people really, they understand that and I think many of us that have been activists for years, clearly understand there's historically always been funding for the police and the military at the detriment of funding public infrastructure and institutions. And more and more people in this moment have clearly seen that because they're suffering the failure of having access to public institutions right now. And it's the same thing that I would argue we saw last year in the uprisings in Haiti and then soon to follow in Ecuador and then immediately on the heels of Ecuador in Chile. Chile, of course, being the first neoliberal experiment in the Americas and it came, you know, it's on the verge of completely crashing down with the dissatisfaction of the population there. I think we're seeing very similar. Here we say riot, the outside world is saying uprising and maybe we can talk a little bit about that. Well, I think that you're absolutely right, Teri. And what is happening in terms of the shift in consciousness, this development in consciousness is that I think probably even more so with my young people than others that people are understanding the full complexities of a white supremacy. You know, understanding that it has a material basis also. And that is what we try to do in the work we involved in the Black Lives Matter piece that we are helping to develop that kind of awareness that if one is concerned about white supremacy that you have to also be concerned about as a basis is continuity. This continuity is a consequence of its materiality that white supremacy, you know, has to be grounded within the context of ongoing, the ongoing colonial capitalist system. That if there's good, that white supremacy will manifest itself in a particular way domestically, but you have to understand how that's being manifested internationally. Yeah, exactly. You can't allow the authorities to pretend that they care about black lives in the U.S. while they systematically perpetuating the colonial exploitation and oppression of Palestinians. You can't talk about middleism and violence in the U.S. and not say anything about the violence and war being unleashed on Yemen. We've got to make those contradictions clear to folks. You can't talk about you concerned about gun violence, but you don't say a mumbling word about the expanding military budget. So people understanding that this is a real material basis for perpetuating a white minority power. And that's what we're talking about. We're talking about a white minority and we're talking about the capitalist class. We say very clearly, we live in a dictatorship, a capitalist dictatorship. And at the core of this dictatorship is the ability of this ruling class to utilize the repressive apparatuses of the state, both domestically and using the military internationally. And that materiality, that use of the state is also manifested in other structures of white supremacy, we say we've got to oppose. For example, NATO, we see NATO as a white supremacist structure. So you can't have Democrats who are saying they oppose to Trump while simultaneously suggesting that Trump's hands should be tied to prevent him from making any kind of changes in the U.S.-NATO relationship. It's a contradiction. Well, we don't even get involved in that territory. We say basically NATO is a white supremacist structure that needs to be dismantled, okay? Same thing with the IMF, the International Monetary Fund, the World Bank. We see these as institutional expressions of white supremacy, the hegemony of the dollar. You know, as long as you have the dollar, you're going to have the hegemony of the U.S. and U.S. finance capital. So, you know, we see these structures as the targets of white supremacy. You can't, you're not going to do a wave with white supremacy ideology. Just look at looking at and involved in all these torturous conversations with white folks and other people about how to get rid of white supremacy. We're not interested in that. In fact, personally, I don't even consider myself an anti-racist. I don't care what white folks think about me. I'm concerned about white supremacist ideology and the structural relations that sustain it, okay? Give us power and we'll deal with white supremacy. You know, the issue is the issues of power and oppression. And when you have oppressed people who are informed and driven by a new ethical framework, the ones to see all of us as equal human beings who are opposed to any kind of hierarchy in terms of power, you know, then we're on our way to building a new world and ridding ourselves of domination from any source. Wow, okay, so we're looking at complete systemic change and the tearing down of these institutions and organizations across the planet. And I agree with you, they are institutions and systems that are used and by the United States and or controlled to basically, and I think, you know, the Afro-Com expansion of Afro-Com, which very few US citizens even understand, you know, know exists, he's basically neocolonialism in the sense that many of us studied, you know, in high school, very similar to the structure of the globe prior to World War I. In my mind, I see it that way very much. Look, look, you're absolutely right, Terri. And that's why the work of Colt Pickett has been so incredibly important in terms of helping to bring attention to the outrageous reality of the US in essence dividing up the world in these military command structures because the US project is, will project its power globally. And, you know, the very fact that we have 800 to 1,000 bases, these four- That we know about. That we know about, yes. That our in support of these global command structures is really outrageous. So, Afro-Com, the US Africa command is one of those structures and the black lines of peace we developed the campaign to focus on Afro-Com that emerged out of the coalition to close our US foreign bases. We're working with that coalition and then we narrow down to a special emphasis on Africa. And we thought that was important to Terri because again, making those connections between, you know, US global militarism and war migraine and domestic. So we say, you know, we are opposed to Afro-Com and the deepening military footprint on the African continent. But we also opposed to the Department of Defense 1033 program that's been responsible for militarizing police forces across the country. So you have to make those connections. So yes, Afro-Com is something we are now focusing in on. We have a big program, June 16th. June 16th is the anniversary of what we referred to as the Waito Day. This was the day in 1976 where the youth of South Africa really intensified the anti-apartheid struggle in that country when it rose up across the country in South Africa. And many people pointed to that day and that period as really the beginning of the end to the apartheid system. We're saying on June 16th, we're gonna rise up to shut down Africa, the US Africa command. So look out for information on that webinar. Yeah, I was gonna say, make sure you send us the back then the details for that because we'll be more than supportive in that effort. You are talking to me from Columbia this morning when we've been talking about the US militarization pretty much of the planet specifically the global south. And so living in Columbia, you're living among seven or eight, I think possibly nine now US military bases and or Navy bases. And somehow we still keep seeing narcotics come out of Columbia. We see many, I would argue a lot of, particularly the paramilitary activity that is witnessed in Columbia and the oppression that it's used for. We saw very much here on the streets in DC last Wednesday particularly these units on the street that were black uniforms, riot squads with no label as to which institution they were representing. And for me, that was very, very reminiscent of Honduras, Columbia, all these very paramilitary US back dictatorships, US back governments throughout the Americas. I wonder, so again, we're seeing the US military in this hemisphere being used principally in Latin America and the Caribbean again, which is predominantly people of color, people of African descendants and Latino, Hispanic, principally people of color again being oppressed by this huge presence of the US military. It's very prevalent throughout the global south which is primarily non-white people. I don't think that that really just physically illustrates so much of your prior comments about how these institutions just completely promote and attempt to ensure the progression of white supremacy in all its forms. Now that was a very nice commentary, I apologize. No, no, no, no, no, but you're absolutely right, Gary. And that's why this program is so important to keep the focus on our Americas, because this is key to US hegemony. They are tempted to try to maintain their hegemony in this region. And that's primarily too why the focus was so intensely moved on Venezuela, but I come back to that in a second. What we have in the US, I mean in the Americas, is an intensification of militarism. And we see it, of course, here in Colombia, with the access given to US forces by the Colombian government. And we are very much concerned and so are people in this country are concerned about the recent announcement of the deployment of a brigade of military, US military personnel into the country, theoretically to be involved in anti-narcotic activity, but everybody knows that they are being deployed up to the Venezuelan border as part of the efforts to bring about so-called regime change in Venezuela. We're also concerned about, we talk about our region that region also includes the Caribbean, and the militarization of the Caribbean region. And the attempt, again, by the US to isolate Venezuela and to isolate also Cuba. And we've seen this intensification of a naval presence in the Caribbean Sea, of Venezuela. So militarism is really intensifying in this region. And again, we talk about structures like NATO that is supposed to be the North Atlantic treaty organization. You have to wonder, or really to expose the fact that there's nothing but a white supremacist structure when NATO is expanding into Latin America. What does Latin America have to do with the North Atlantic? Well, because the NATO is a white supremacist military arm of what we call the axis of domination, the US, EU, NATO, axis of domination. So it's associated- Let me just take a minute to explain to our viewers when you've mentioned North Atlantic Treaty Association and then expanding into Latin America, just so that our viewers understand, Columbia, I believe now is a NATO global partner. Is that the label that they function under NATO now? Yeah, a global partner of NATO, with a Caribbean coast. Yeah, no, and that's what I'm referring to. That basically you have this association, this relationship, they are a global partner and they are effecting the same kind of relationship with Brazil. So here you have the US, again, pretending to be committed to democracy, human rights, domestically, pretending to be concerned with non-European life, but yet they are actively supporting right wing governments in Latin America. So they will point us toward the so-called neo-fascism of Donald Trump in the US, but then there's bipartisan support for neo-fascism in various countries in Latin America. Exactly, yeah. It shows you the crazy and the contempt they have for the intelligence of people in the US. Well, I was sharing with you before we started broadcasting that here in DC, in my neighborhood, I live among many Central American migrants and they have, rightfully so, many live in fear of ice raids, but since George Floyd's murder, I've had many conversations with people from Central America really now understanding and seeing I think this whole, that this militarization, these horrible death squads and military finance regimes that many of them fled from in the 80s, they are now seeing actually exist here on the streets in the United States. I mean, the ice raids and the ice arrests they really kept compartmentalized, unfortunately, to their own specific migration and living circumstances, but to see this broader nationwide militarization of the streets and how it's used to oppress all citizens is very reminiscent to them of the countries, the US-backed countries they fled, Honduras today, but Salvador, Guatemala in the 80s. And it's really, it's been fascinating for me to have these conversations, but I think it's also really, really important that so many demographics here in the States are opening up and seeing what's actually happening. Exactly. And not only are they understanding by their presence in the US, but we are seeing that the entire world is seeing the realities of the US that have been effectively sort of a mask for quite some time, in particular during the eight years of Barack Obama. And it is, you know, we were talking before we started that, you know, we've been around long enough to remember the upsurge of resistance in the 1960s and 70s and the international understanding that people had about the nature of the system. But, you know, that the nature of the system has been somewhat obscured ever since, but now a new generation, a new generation, if you will, of people are somewhat surprised about what they have seen with the images. People don't understand, especially when you're outside of the US, the kind of images that are circulating from the police actions across the country. I mean, because, you know, if you're just watching the US media, you're seeing some, but you're not seeing what we're seeing. Right, yeah. And the images from across the country of brutality has been quite shocking to many people. And so, yeah, people inside the US, but even more importantly, people outside of the US are seeing the true nature of these bipartisan forces who are in charge in the US. And that's why they are making the connection even more quicker than sometimes we are in the US. You mentioned earlier about, see an interview with a friend citizen, how crystal clear they are about global realities. You know, we haven't had guys to that point yet in the US, but we're getting there. That basically people are starting to understand what they're up against. And people outside the US, they already got it. And so they are already making the transition from George Floyd to the police, to the state, to the system. And that's why they really express appreciation for this budding resistance movement in the US because they know that if there's an effective people-centered human rights movement in the US that can put a break on US backward, retrograde policies, that they would benefit from that because they are the ones that find themselves in the crosshairs of US subversion and military intervention, war mongering. And the only way that's going to stop, they know this, is when the people in the US put a break on it. And that's for them is really, really important. So would you say there's a lot of hopefulness in the international community right now about what, I mean, it's tragedy, but in that tragedy is opportunity for change. You see hopefulness in the international community. I ask you this because the 40 years that I've been in and out of Latin America and specifically the years where I've organized delegations to various parts of Central and South America and the Caribbean, invariably on every trip, and I'm sure that you probably hear this too, every trip you will inevitably hear from someone, whether it's in a formal meeting, on the street, in a restaurant, someone will say, go home and fix your own country first, the rest of us will benefit. Do you see this as perhaps an opportunity to fix our own country first now? Well, I see it as an opportunity to strengthen solidarity. That there's no fix here or there and that kind of chronology. I think I understand the spirit of what they're saying, that basically we have a responsibility as citizens of empire to put a break on the US state. And that's important. So that is a criticism or critique that we fully embrace. That is our responsibility. But at the same time though, we are in solidarity with people who are struggling around the world. So we're not going to be confused by that. So we stand with, and those of us like yourself, who are standing with the people of Latin America, they have to understand that you are there because you are building opposition to US policies back in the US. And it's important for people from the US to see firsthand the conditions and the consequences of US policy. So yeah, we definitely have to do that. People are hopeful because again, they understand that it's only going to be a popular resistance that would change US policies. But they are concerned like I am with the moves will seem being made these last few days to domesticate the opposition to keep it at a manageable level with the focus just being on so-called justice for George Floyd. What does that mean? George Floyd is dead. There's no justice for him. But what we can do is to put a critical view on the system they created, the conditions that resulted in George Floyd's life being taken. And when you put the focus on the system that you connect George Floyd to the police. You connect George Floyd to the military. You can connect George Floyd to the system. And that is what people are hoping is it happens. But the authorities using the Congressional Black Caucus and what we call Reverend Chicken Wings Charms and they are doing everything in their power to subvert a radicalization of this movement. And we are hoping that they're not going to be successful in that because the world would benefit when there is an effective people-centered movement in the US that were able to shift power away from these gangsters back to the people. Well, in shifting power from the gangsters back to the people, we have heard this since at least since 1980 with Ronald Reagan that government is not the solution. It's the problem and the reduction of taxes and basically reducing taxes to financially starve off public institutions and infrastructure. And so here we are now in the States with no public access for the things that average citizens need. And I'm hopeful that those connections that you're talking about are, they seem to be being made particularly by younger people. And I'm very hopeful for that because I'm with you, the change has got to happen here in order to help us influence change abroad. All the money that we need to improve the life of the vast majority of US citizens is in our police and military budgets. It's all there. We don't have to raise taxes for those people who are afraid of raising taxes. We don't have to, the money is all there. It just needs to be, you know, reappropriated in a good accounting term. It's a very, it's actually a very simple issue. The money is all there. And so you have a lot of people calling to defund the defund the police, but we at Code Pink would also, you know, call for defunding the Pentagon as well. And it would help those of us at home and abroad, you know, to do both. The other thing I agree with you is making sure that this movement, this uprising as so many international people are seeing it is not co-opted. And I have to say, I was really startled, almost horrified to see Nancy Pelosi taking a knee. I think yesterday was the photograph I saw. I was like, no, no, no, no, that's not, I mean, that's not what this is about. And hopefully does not become about that. And of course, people feeling that change can be made in the fall at the ballot box by voting for Joe Biden is most certainly not the solution. I mean, Joe Biden voted for many of the policies that have resulted in this behavior we're seeing today. And of course he supported the war on Iraq and the Obama administration started seven wars overseas. So I don't, you know, so that's more perpetuation of this racist foreign infrastructure that you've been talking about. He's not the solution, unfortunately, in my mind. Well, you know, Terry, the images we saw yesterday was insulting to see these Democrats decked out in their kinte fault, taking a knee. I mean, it was the very fact that he thought that that kind of gratuitous stunt would go over with black folks, you know, it's just, I think a reflection of the kind of content they have for all of us, in particular, for the black community. And they were roundly ridiculed and commited because of that image. But again, these are examples of them attempting to try to co-op this energy. And today they are going through the spectacle of this phony bill that the Clinton News Network or CNN refers to as sweeping legislation on policing. There's nothing sweeping about that legislation. Policing is primarily a local function of some of the tippet, you know, BS reforms or things that really won't never see the light of day, even if they did, they would be making a real significant change. There is some language about putting certain restrictions on the transfer of military weapons to the police. And I find it, we find it interesting that that stuff would be in there and the Congressional Black Caucus being the primary driver of this. When it was the Congressional Black Caucus that refused to oppose the 1043 program. And, you know, and now they're pretending like now they want to oppose it. Well, let's see, maybe they might, if they do that, it'll be the same. But, you know, again, we're not going to be confused by these efforts on the part of the authorities to try to domesticate and depoliticize the oppositional energy developing from the street aid. They are filling out, Terry, the street keys. And they are scared to death. And that's a good thing. Let's just, you don't want them to succeed in it. Yes. One thing that's happened, and the last couple of minutes I have with you, one thing that has happened is that people are starting to see the power of the people. When they see the kind of concessions that are being made by the authorities, when they realize that no, Donald Trump didn't go down to the bunker to inspect it, they were concerned about being overrun. And so they had to take Donald Trump down to the bunker to protect him from the people. But people see the impact that they have had from their activity. You can't put that genie back in the bottle. And so, you know, they're desperate to try to control it. And, you know, we'll see what happens, but in the context of the ongoing and deep contradictions of this system, the fact that there will be no economic recovery in a real way, that the millions of jobs that have been lost are not coming back, where young people are not seeing any kind of future for themselves, where people are now seeing that even within the context of the Democratic Party, that you can't really make reforms because you have a corrupt element that is more concerned with maintaining control of their party than defeating a Donald Trump. All of these things are coming together, Terry. And, you know, we're in a situation that is, that what is going to unfold just in the next few months couldn't in fact be revolutionary. It's actually very exciting to see the possibility and the energy. You know, for those of us all here who've been through the 60s, and I'm so glad that I'm still here because this is, yeah, it's very, very exciting and I'm glad to be part of this. I just want you to be a part of historic change. It's full of possibility. And I feel the same way you do. Listen, I know, I promised you, you promised me 30 minutes and we're going on about 50. So is there anything that you'd like to say in closing our conversation before I let you go back to your work? Only that I salute Co-Pink for being in the forefront of opposition, for consistently putting themselves online, for educating the public in the ways that you all have done for many years. And that, you know, everybody should recognize the moment that we're in and that trying to build and maintain unity among ourselves is vitally important and that we are on the edge of something really unique. And so I just urge everybody to keep your faith, keep struggling, let's move forward, elevating the issues of war and militarism within the context of this electoral season and know that we're on the right side of history. Even though things may get worse before they get better, we are on the right side of history and in the end, Terry, we're gonna win. We are. So listen everybody viewing today, I want you to just thank Ajammu Baraka for this very fascinating in-depth conversation. I'm so grateful for your time, Ajammu. And all of you can find his, your recent article is posted at blackallianceforpeace.org or at blackagendareport.com. Yes, but go to blackagenda, go to blackallianceforpeace.com to see our statements because the framing that we've been putting out, I think it's framing that people need to be aware of and to use. So blackallianceforpeace.com, not .org, I think I got it wrong. And also please visit Divest from the War Machine, that's CodePink's project, codepink.org and divesting from the War Machine here at home and abroad. We'll also ask all of you to tune in next week for what the F is going on in Latin America. Every Wednesday, 9 a.m. Pacific, 12 p.m. Eastern on CodePink's YouTube channel. And also please be sure to listen to CodePink radio every Thursday, 11 a.m. Eastern on WBAI out of New York, Simul Casting from WPFW in Washington, D.C. So thanks again to Jamu. So appreciate your time this morning and really great to talk with you. Always an honor. My pleasure. Let's do it again soon. Yes, I look forward to it. Thanks so much. Okay. Bye-bye. Okay, I tell you. Take it easy. Thanks so much. You too, thank you. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.