 Hello, everyone. Welcome to the TSC call. I'm sure you're familiar with the antitrust policy that is currently displayed. As well as the code of conduct, which is linked from the agenda. As I was saying earlier, I think we have a fairly light agenda, but let's see if we can keep it short. We have a tendency to fill in the hour, no matter what, but we really don't have to. It's okay to finish early. So let's get started with a couple of announcements else kind of cruise through the first one the newsletters at the newsletter I'm sure you all were aware of the weekly developer newsletter there's an opportunity for every project to raise a awareness of what's going on in that project. So think about it. The TSC election is now going on and it will run until October 15. So if you haven't cast your vote yet, consider doing so. I have to say it took me more time that I expected because we have a pretty nice set of candidates and I was pretty impressed. So with that said, so quarterly reports, there were no new quarterly reports submitted this week per the calendar, I have to say. We only have Avalon and Bezu, which you know I've been around for over a week now, and I haven't seen on any of them any issues being raised. So, is there anything anybody wants to bring up now. Otherwise, I will not bring those over. Next week, I think we're done with them. Hopefully, as any connection with either Explorer or Caliper, please ping them, try to nudge them into submitting their report. Because those on the other hand are overdue. And this is actually the end of the Q3 reports. We are now in the fourth quarter. So we will start a new cycle of reports. So, let's get to the discussion. So you may remember last week we were talking about, you know, some of the backlog issues and there's this long standing one about, you know, what do we do with projects that don't fulfill their charter, etc. And we had a discussion and then we said, you know, we talked about different possibilities that, you know, exist actually but that we could document that people can use to, you know, raise concern with regard to the direction of project text. And I actually volunteered to put a proposal together. And then, as I was working thinking about it, you know, I realized, well, we have, you know, this is just one kind of issues that people can raise when it comes to the TSE. So maybe we should just have a documentation about how you raise an issue with the TSE and, you know, highlight that this can also be used to specifically for issues with regard to the two projects not meeting their expectations. And then one thing led to another. I was like, oh yeah, but wait, why do people, you know, I had thought about, you know, I started putting together a page that we could add to the TSE documentation. This is basically a guideline type of thing that explained the different ways people can, you know, get at the attention of TSE on an issue. And then I thought, but wait, we have a decision log people could use to raise an issue. This is where we've been logging issues and managing issues. Wait, why do we still use the Wiki? Because now we have a GitHub repo, which I was actually using to set up the page. And I thought, wait, this is archaic. We didn't have a GitHub repo before. So it was natural to use the Wiki as a way to manage issues. But it seems a bit silly to continue doing so. It's admittedly a bit clunky. And so I it led me to kind of rethink my proposal all together and and and to make a first proposal in preparation to the other one, which is to stop using the Wiki to log issues, to manage issues related to TSE and use the GitHub issues instead in the repo. So I already saw, at least, you know, Tracy was always on top, already comments on everything before I even have a chance to bring it up, which is great. And, you know, she already said plus one, I don't expect this to be controversial, but you know, that's my proposal. Why would we don't do this? I mean, I think most of the projects are moving on to GitHub issues for their own issues. And it seems like, you know, the tool that, you know, outsiders or the community at large would be familiar with it be easy for them to use. So that's the proposal. If you have any comments or concern, or do you want to just have a vote? I second your proposal. Thank you. All right, let's do a quick vote, I think, because I mean, is there any concerns before we get there. I don't see any hands getting up. So let's do a vote with just a simple, you know, kind of thing. So anybody in favor says hi. Hi. That sounds pretty popular. Thank you. Anybody wants to object? Right. Anybody wants to might be marked as abstaining? Nobody. Great. So this passes unanimously. And so what we will do is we'll start using the issues. What I think I'm going to do is create, there are a couple of issues in the backlog. I think we can open some issues in the GitHub issues with links to the to the wiki issue and just move over. But so that will be the, you know, the last kind of proposal or issues that we raise through the wiki. So we'll mark it in the wiki, maybe. Right, maybe we can disable the create an issue kind of button we have in the decision log in the wiki so that nobody even tries to do that. I mean, there may be ways around, but obviously, but I'll make I'll make life as as terrible as possible. All right, so that was easy. That's what I was hoping for. Thank you. So with that done then we can move on to the next issue, which is the first one I talked about this issue about, you know, documenting how people can raise an issue. And so I have this proposal to add a page, and I put a link to the to the pull request I already created against the TSE repo that basically, you know, adds a page if you can just display the page. See Tracy's hand is up, but sure. Yeah, yeah, but just go to the page first. That's not it. Go to the PR and go to the changes to show the actual document. That's not it. You're not on the wrong one on the right. Yes, this is the one I wanted. Thank you. So it's a very simple page, but it basically says, hey, you know, issues should be basically first raised within projects and if it doesn't get solved in the project to your satisfaction, you're free to bring it up to the TSE, and there are various ways to do to do that. And of course, it does talk about raising it in the GitHub in the TSE GitHub repo. And it also talks about different possibilities and talks about the quality reports which we mentioned before, if it comes to an issue related to, you know, not fulfilling their expectations that people might have or meeting the expectations. And so my idea was again to, you know, make it a fairly general page to raise any kind of issues is more encompassing than the specific issue of the project, not meeting the expectations, but you know, we can fold that into this and kill two pairs with one stone kind of thing. And so that's the proposal. So, Tracy, did I make you wait too long, you don't want to talk to us anymore. No, I don't want to talk to anyone. I've answered my own question. Okay. Our room. Right. I thought I already commented it but I guess I never pushed the button. So, I think this is fine. And one more thing that I was thinking through is on the anonymous issue creation. Should we mention that if you want to keep yourself anonymous, then first reach out to community architects. Yeah, so you mentioned that to me on slack actually so on the element forget which one we're using that. And so, yes, so Aaron's point I think is an interesting one. I said, well, there may be cases where people are not comfortable bringing up the issue, you know, directly, and they may want to do so anonymously. And the probably the easiest way to handle this is for them to reach out to a community architect and have one of the community architects to do to bring up the issue themselves on behalf of the community member. Without having to reveal who that is. I didn't explicitly state that in that page, but I did say, you know, if you're unsure about how to proceed you can contact the community architects and this page has already benefited from input from Tracy and the details. So it actually points out how you contact the community architect or you can contact them. I mean we, I don't know if it's necessary if you think it's necessary to spell out that if you want to remain anonymous this is one way you can do that. Well, you know, that would fall into the a I'm not sure how to go at this, and we point give them a pointer but I would. So, again, abusing my power here to break it on the meeting. I would wonder if this would fall into kind of the bucket of, you know, COC complaints, something of that nature. The language that are in used. I think it may be worth calling out and not saying you know if you feel unsafe, or if I think it would not be a toward say, please reach out. So wait so you're saying in the case of kind of conduct violation. No, no, no, I'm saying it's much like the code of conduct. Yes, thank you Tracy. There, you know there is there is a way we say in the code of conduct, you know, do this thing. And I feel that if you're saying the reason someone would use anonymous reporting is because they don't feel comfortable is similar to the reason why someone would not feel comfortable making a COC complaint in public. So and I see that there's discussion in, in chat so I will see the floor to heart or Tracy. Yeah, I, I put a link out to the code of conduct incident procedure piece. I don't know if we could use the same thing as this, if we want to point to this. But that might be the way I agree right that this is what I would think of because. I have a hard time with anonymous people having to actually contact other people. So I don't know that anonymous reporting is actually the right word here. It really is more about you don't want it to be publicly viewable so you need to contact somebody. I think Tracy's done so I'll jump in here I think this is a good strategy. So, for fully anonymous comments or complaints there's going to be no filter and here the community architects can keep things private, while still acting as sort of a filter on these. So I think this is a good idea and as others have been suggesting I think it makes sense to point it out here. So if I understand you correctly guys you're saying it's worth putting adding a sentence in there saying that if people want to raise an issue privately, they should contact community architects. Yes. Sounds right. I concur. I'm happy to do that Nathan. Yeah, I agree that that's very helpful the other thing that we might want to reference here is if they raise an issue it's always helpful for us as the TSC if they point out where they talked to the maintainers or where they've talked to the project, either as a link to the email list thread, or whatever other discussion has already taken place. I think it's certainly we wouldn't say it's required, especially in the case like an anonymous issue being raised but it strikes me that that's the first thing we'd probably ask for. Yeah yeah yeah that's very good point so we could add some text there to say that when people raise an issue they should provide as much background as possible on the issue so that the TSC can get up to speed quicker. Something along those lines right. That's a good point. Thank you. But so I'm glad we're already getting into the details and people are working on improving which I really appreciate. But so I'm guessing nobody is opposed to the idea here. So that's good news. I don't expect this to be very controversial obviously but there is the question as to whether, you know, having this page and we can, you know, happy to revise the PR and to improve with the input that you guys just gave me. You guys think that this satisfies the problem we were having with the specific issue of projects not meeting the charter, at least in terms of like being a you know documenting how people can raise this issue. Sure. Thanks so I guess I'll give you one quick background of why that was an issue or why that was considered some topic that we need to discuss. It all boils down to one email thread that was happening earlier related to one of the project, where the project maintainers said they already had an answer for some of these things and that they were not comfortable that it escalated to TSC at very first point. Maybe there were better ways of engaging with them. And that's what they felt and that's what might have made them feel not good about that email thread. So maybe having this forum where people can go and raise an issue and discuss with projects specifically get answers addressed. And if there's still any issue and then if they're coming to TSC then I guess at least that addresses the concern over there. Okay, thank you. Any other comments. Okay, if not then what I would like to do is, you know, can we agree on the general approach and then leave the details of the, you know, edits of the page to the to the repo where we can, you know, I can update the pull request and then people can vote. And based on that will, you know, merge the page of the merge the changes to add the page. But I would like to have agreement that we're going to add this page, and that this will effectively close this issue about projects not beating their charter goals. Can we have a vote on this. Second. All right, thank you, Arun. I think it's not controversial again so I'm happy to do it the same way we did the other one. Everybody in favor say hi. Hi. Anybody wants to object. Anybody wants to abstain. All right, we're in the wrong. This solves this problem. Thank you very much. Motion passes unanimously. Okay, so we have one more item on the agenda. Arun brought it up to me as if we could add this to the agenda. I don't know how many of you will let him speak but essentially this is about, you know, how task forces get created, just as a to frame a little bit the problem. You may remember that a while ago, we had working groups, and we said well working groups were but at least, you know, some of them had delivery balls others didn't. We had different working groups into long lasting forums for discussions, and for specific, you know, tasks, which were time bounded with the specific deliverable, or the river balls, possibly, we would create task forces, it would just be created for a specific purpose, a specific time frame, and then disband, and we just had one of those with like, you know, the, the greenhouse and the charter date and stuff like this. So, now this to date has been basically under the control of the TSE we decide when we hear the task was when we don't. So, Arun. Thanks Arun. I actually have Vikram also on the calls probably I'll let Vikram speak, but a quick background of what Arun was about to say is. So task forces, there is, at least I could not find a place where we have a defined process of this is how task force can be proposed to TSE. And all the task forces that have been formed so far have been based on some discussion that happened within the TSE calls, but it's not known to a wider audience, and Vikram is actually working on one of the activity which he would like to have a recognition from Hyperledger on that, and also collaborate with others within the open source community. Basically, it is about writing the white papers. And I'll let Vikram speak more about it before I complete my sentences. Vikram. Thanks Arun. I hope I'm audible. Yes, welcome. Okay. So, as part of Hyperledger India chapter, one of the things that we picked up was to write a white paper on re-engineering elections and elections and blockchain. So, for that purpose, what we feel is a way understood from Arun that Hyperledger TSE has decided that we will form task forces, but we could not find a way to create a task force for the process. And the second aspect is that if it is an official task force, then what it entices people to join that particular opportunity and participate in it. And that is the way we will deliver better results for the community. So that is what we wanted, that if there is a process that you follow this route and your task force would be picked up and formulated. And for example, what all it entails, maybe it entails you to create a wiki page, maybe it entails you to a chat forum, what does it entails and how do you go about it. And if there is such a process, it would help people like me and others who want to contribute to this forum. All right, thank you for this explanation. Tracy, as a hand up. I think I put a link to our task force launch in the element. We do have a, you know, you have to create a proposal. I guess my expectation prior to today's decision was that that would be done in the decision log so now I guess I would think that proposal would be done as an issue that's raised to the TSE. And as part of that test force launch page we say that the TSE has to approve task force creation. And then also looking at our other task force decisions we talked about the extension of a task force if it goes beyond the allocated timeframe, and then the reporting back to the TSE on the completion of said task force so I think we do have some of this stuff already documented in the matter of, you know, I guess what's what's being looked for some formal process instead of some, you know, high level ideas about what we have. You know, obviously we can use the TSE repo as a place to put those proposals and then we can also probably put some sort of page that says how you would create a task force inside of that TSE repo. So that would be my suggestion. Thank you Tracy. I'm so glad you're around and always managed to pull out the right piece of document. We need it. Thank you. You know my initial reaction when when a room brought it up to me was like, wait, I don't see that there's anything preventing anyone from proposing a task force. I guess, you know, it's finding this kind of information is not necessarily obvious. And I don't think. I think we documented, you know, as you pointed out, some of the mechanics involved though the expectations to create a task for but we never documented that it's not limited to TSE members, anybody can actually, you know, use this process to propose a task force. And this is part of the problem. The way our room initially framed it to me was like, you know, we need something that is more bottom up the current task force process is very top down. And I was like, is it, I mean, it didn't match my my understanding. But I realized, well, there's nothing that really makes that clear either so I can see how, you know, people were not as close to the TSE as we are. May not, you know, have that impression. But so, yeah, it seems like, you know, there is no real issue per se and I don't. I mean, I guess tell me that I don't expect anybody to be opposed to the idea of expanding this process to make it clear that anyone can use this mechanism to launch task forces. And so then maybe it's more of a question of making it an effort to better document it. And maybe there's just another page we can add to the TSE website along the lines of what we just talked about to raise an issue. Perhaps we could use something like the CIL from CNCF as a model here. It, you know, it has a how to apply, which is this where you file an issue. And you do all this as an issue, right. Yeah, so that that seems to be a bit in line with but I think Tracy Kastan said maybe that can be done through the repo as Tracy your hand is up. Yeah, I was just going to volunteer to write the page. Great. I was going to ask who wants to volunteer so thank you for stepping up. So, there is this as well, which we can trivially add right that's the issue template for for CNCF right so if we have an issue template. There's a discussion that was just recorded can be put into new issues and make everything easy make the expectations straightforward and make everything super easy. Right, would you mind putting the CIL and then this template, like in the chat. I mind doing anything. Yeah, I know. All right, thanks for pointing that out right and thank you Tracy for volunteering to put this together. I mean, let's check with our friends here I mean a room and Vikram does that you feel like this will address your, your problem. Okay, and to me addresses, right or not and thanks for pointing that they see I was actually searching through the TSC, the key. But yeah I could not find one. We can probably this addresses the concern. I know it's like I live and probably more details will be figured out and upcoming things. I think this should be a good guidance. Right and then once we have, you know, I mean, I'm guessing Tracy are going to put a PR together and then people, you know I invite Vikram and Aaron and everybody else to have an eye for that. Keep an eye out for this and when it comes up. Feel free to comment if you feel like something is missing. You know, suggest that Vikram should not feel gated on this page existing though, now that the previous process has been linked to. You know if you want to send an email or something on the TSC list. I just don't want they want to do a thing. I don't want to get in the way of them doing a thing. I want people who want to do things be able to do it. Absolutely so I'm glad you know we basically I take it, you know from this discussion we have confirmed that they are definitely welcome to create or propose to create a task force right. And we're just saying they don't have to wait for this page to be set up for doing so. They're welcome to make that proposal anytime. I agree. So maybe then you have to take that next step. Yeah, Vikram replied in the other chat, which I forgot to disable. That's all right. All right then. So, I think we're done with that item. And that means we are done with the official agenda. Yeah, I did reach out to you and chat. I forgot to announce during the announcements section that we are having our dev rail mark on meeting is next week. And it's next Wednesday at the link will be out in the dev weekly and it's in the TSC calendar but I would really appreciate it if you know more maintainers and more people from projects, took advantage of the resources that we have and joined the mark on meeting. So, next Wednesday. Right, thank you. Sorry, I didn't actually ask if anybody else said any other announcements, the way I normally do, how ruin as he's end up. I have an announcement. It's more related to call for the project. There is an event happening at global convention or probably an hackathon event called agree the convention. And they're looking at hyper ledgers maintainers taking sessions for their hackathon participants. And if you are interested then please let me know I'll get you connected with them. They're looking at hyper ledger as one of the resource and maybe David you can add more on that. They're looking at hyper ledger as one of the community partners for the event. And they would like to have a tech session for the hackathon participants. All right, thank you. So is there anything else anybody wants to bring up. Sure, I'm going to make a 24 minute. I just want to point out that. Bezu. This is this is it for me. Bezu had as far as I'm aware that the first commit from someone through the through the grace hopper program last week, there may have been other commits that came in that I missed, but I just wanted to, you know, get some kudos to the, to the Bezu team. So, I see the floor to, to Tracy. That was good. A pull request merge as well from somebody at the OSD. Nice. Very good. Thank you. So the event was really great. And I also found that fights like to hide contributions coming in on the event. Thank you. Praise. Yeah, just wanted to echo what Arring just said. I think as the TSC would be awesome over the next year to kind of work with the staff to identify similar events or even have a bigger presence next year at this kind of event. I thought it was a great way to expose hyper ledger in our projects and get people working on it. Just was a really, really great day so just wanted to echo what Arring said and say, I think this would be a really cool thing for us to continue to drive. Yeah, but it was great. All right, very good to hear. Okay, so guys, we're not going to drag this on for much longer. We're going to close early, which I'm glad. But I want to point out that officially we only have one more call for this TSC. And then there will be the results of the election will be announced. There will be a new TSC form. The TSC election for the chair election takes place the following week. So, I think the previous years we just didn't have a meeting during that week, because we wait for the new chair to be decided. And so, I don't know if we were going to have a call next week or not, you know, we'll see whether there's anything, you know, that that comes up. Right now we have a pretty short list in a backlog, mostly DC or related issues which we're not going to be able to make much progress on for the time being. So, we may not have a call next week and this means that this might be the last call of this TSC term. If we don't get to talk again. I want to thank everybody for, you know, participating in this TSC. And obviously, I think about everybody here except for Mark, you know, is running again. And Gary I guess but so hopefully I'll see you on the other side. But if not, it's okay. Thank you all for joining and I'll see you whenever we talk. All right. Thank you guys.