 Hey Thomas, hey Bruce. Good morning Lance. Hey, how are you doing? All right How are you? Good. Good. It's it's good to be reconnecting coming back up to speed Let's see just creating our Meeting page so I can share with you guys How about you guys how's the new year starting off? So far so good posting our meeting link there. I think we're already recording. Yes, and I will share This Yeah, okay, so Welcome everybody to the Aries.com V2 working group first meeting of 2023 Today's January 9th And it's good to be back after we've been on a pretty long break since the December 19th meeting I think and Yeah, so I think today you'll be some catch up and we can have discussions and We'll just see where we go As we all reconnect together Hey, Roto Everybody, hi Lance. Hey and pronunciation on this Muka hit Would you like to introduce yourself? No worries if if you can't or don't want to Also now that I'm sharing of course my screen change, so let me make sure I can see our Chats I'll post again or Meeting link in here Okay, let's see. I also have to remind you of the antitrust policies for hyper ledger and the hyper ledger code of conduct Please be aware of those and feel free to add yourself to the attendees list Today if you'd like we'll go back into edit Yeah, if anybody would like to do introductions Feel free to then we'll do some updates and And yeah, basically just reconnect Okay, maybe I should say something sure. Yeah. Hi, this is Thomas from Red Hat and I've been working with the various for you know, couple of months Looking into connecting Apache camel with with acupy So this work has nicely Come to an end at least for my end and it's ready to get integrated into the compatibility test suite AIP And while doing so, I realized that the way to go, you know for the foreseeable future would indeed be Did come right so I I got interested in it come read up on the specs and stuff What works and what doesn't work with Aries? so From at least, you know from from our side I'd like to work with you on the specs and I'd like to if possible used it come with, you know the existing stuff over here in in Europe the EBSI stuff and and hopefully work towards integration between Acupy and you know the EBSI Infrastructure so at least this is on my roadmap for 23 and this is my first meeting with you guys in this year That's great. Great to have you. Can you tell us a more about Apache camel? Yeah, so there has been there has been a demo to some of the Aries folks So Apache camel is I can post you the link Or you can look it up. Yeah, sure. I'll grab it. Yeah. Yeah, so Apache camel is an integration framework for in Java So in in redhead Some of you might know, you know redhead has been acquired by IBM a couple of years ago and We've been left We've been left alone, which is nice, you know, so I still talk about redhead instead of IBM in case you wonder and In in redhead we have we have not only the operating system Well, but we also have various Layers on top of that and one of them is the fuse integration layer and which is heavily used around the globe and Integrates heterogeneous Systems with Java So if you if you have an endpoint or if you have a system and you want to connect it to another system There is, you know, there's well known integration patterns. You can do this But basically it it boils down to a transforming stuff routing stuff, you know consuming Information continuing data in one format and then transforming it and Rouching it and then pushing it to another endpoint and and we have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of of Possible connectors into this integration platform. So if you have a system There's a very good chance that we have a connector for it. So, you know, all the databases all the messaging systems the Linked-in and whatnot, right and My task would be, you know, out of my chosen task would be to use the Identity stuff in connection with these endpoints. So hopefully in the future Apache Camel will be did come enabled and we would be able to send, you know Arbitry payloads could be authenticated and secured of through the did come technology At least that's the goal, right because because most of our customers, you know, they they send Non-trivial information across these endpoints and for them and would be very beneficial if we could use a common standard to To secure and authenticate and you know, I mean you know, better than I what did come can do but to have this as an as a as a layer available to all sorts of endpoints at Camel. Yeah, that's really interesting. I Think from 2004 to 2010 I was involved in like a Java based enterprise Framework that was essentially taking a bunch of different research projects and trying to integrate them in in a way that made it so that, you know, they could leverage each other. And then More recently just, I don't know if you've seen the talks by Daniel Hardman and I think Sam Kern has says echoed them In some of his talks, but essentially they talk about or they compare, especially when Daniel met with the W3C about did come. He compared kind of API endpoints verse like a did come Did come Architecture that, you know, avoids kind of the siloing that that makes it so that those things can't Integrate as well. So I don't know if you've seen that talk But I think you would find it interesting. I've seen a couple of talks Maybe I've seen it. Yeah, so I'll find the link and I'll post it. Let me let me so that's me. Hi So and and this is the you know, if you like to know more about integration I'm not sure if you can see it. Yeah, it's a it's a big book about how to do integration in an abstract way. Can you see it? It's trying to blur it because it's not your face. It's not my face. Yeah, so Not there we go. Yeah, well done. So now it's my face and it's enterize integration patterns and it's got lots, lots of lots and lots of of these patterns. Very researched and and Patrick Campbell is an implementation of this book if you like Right, so yeah, so and and did come is not part of the book, right, but it should be I think And so this is what this is about Yeah, and so much what one question is what was you integrated with 80s is with one framework of 80s What was the duration that you mentioned at the beginning? Yeah, of course. Yeah, so Taking baby steps into the space. I started off with what I know and I know You know, I know the application server and I know camel and I didn't know I didn't know SSI and didn't know Apache areas that Python. Yeah, occupy So this is what I started off with, right? So I I used what is already available. So the there's a there's a java client library for occupy And I integrated that with camel, right? So, so But of course, you can only go so far, you know, with this approach and and camel would then have a dependency on a on a installation and Well, it goes some way, but it doesn't go all the way that I wanted to go, right? So Ultimately, I'd like camel to be a full SSI agent implemented in java probably, right? And and I would short circuit I would like to short circuit what is already you know Becoming somewhat of a baggage and and focus on focus on did come alone Right. So this is why I'm interested in in the a IP three spec and then did come Right. So so I have not much interest in in implementing all these various protocols that are already out there, right? Because my resources are limited or our resources are limited and and the focus would be on on did come v2 and a IP 30 At least for this year and see how it goes, right? See how it goes And I'm also not planning to write everything from scratch because there are various libraries already available. There is a Uh, I think from sick sick par. There's a library that that can handle Did come be two messages in Kotlin Which is essentially java And there is a very good framework from volt ID. You probably know it and it it does all sorts of You know did handling wallet management Uh key storage kind of thing, right? So so I use those Right. I use those and and hopefully uh, I can I can you know provide the additional bits to well to essentially send out and receive did come be two messages and hopefully Plug this in into the AIP 30 test suite over the year Yeah, that is um it's yeah, uh, just the impact of that I feel like You know, I can't even wrap my my mind around how how impactful it would be to uh, kind of Enhanced that ecosystem that that that you're talking about That's and and you know a community that I haven't been involved in in in quite a while, but uh, you know, obviously is massive You know globally Yeah, just imagine, you know, one of our biggest customers is shiphold airport in An Amsterdam, right? So that For the entire it operation they use Camel heavily, right? So so this would this would instantly enable them At the airport to use did come to you know, do all sorts of Interesting stuff on on top of what they already do Absolutely, very cool. Well glad to have you and thank you for uh, introducing that It'll give me some additional things to kind of think about as I'm thinking about did come and I actually can't wait to kind of revisit Daniel's talk here. I've probably listened to it four or five times and you know again now Reinterested in in listening to it and thinking about it. So yeah, thank you. Tom's glad to have you Um, also just uh, I I I don't know if you know, uh, hakan and judith They're doing a bunch of the did come v2 integration work into akapai. So they Have traditionally attended this these meetings. Uh, and hakan can't make it. He said this week But he's planning to attend next week. So since you've been akapai related then, uh, I would have you come across him Possibly. Yeah, okay. Yeah, but you know, I I kept uh, You know, I kept a little profile because I'm so new to the space, right? So I I didn't dare to Raise my head too high, right? So but now I feel more comfortable and and so I'm I'm happy to work with all of you guys Yeah, perfect We are all you know, so Yeah, it feels like it I I'm uh, I'm responding to a post uh by riley hughes um from trinzik And in his post he says, uh, a relatively new identity, uh, you know person or something like that You know having been here for five years and i'm like If that's a relatively new person, what does that make? You know that for five years in this identity space has got to put him in, uh, you know There's maybe only 30 people on the planet who could say the same thing Maybe so anyways, I don't know. It's uh, I guess identity. Uh, it depends on how you define it But uh, I'd say five years would be a massive amount of time and then even one year at this point You know somebody like me who's been around it for a year uh, you know, I I'm Fairly far along I guess so Yeah And do you work on this um wallet? with Money from catalyst with cardano? Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So so you might recognize this, right? Yeah, is that world mobile? Yes, absolutely. Yeah, I talked to them a ton at consensus 2022. Yeah Really? Yeah. Are you you're involved with them or did I miss that while you were talking? Well, no, you didn't you didn't I did this as a hobby, you know Okay a year ago. So so I know about I I was on the first What was it a pioneer program? The yes So you were with Rodolfo and I then because that was we're talking at the the end of 2021 Yeah, so so this is not the uh the SSI Pioneer program, but the oh, okay. Yeah, the oh, okay. Yeah, okay Gotcha Yeah So anyway, wow, that's wild Now we're now we're super connected. Uh, this is It's like you've brought my past and the present and you know all together. So Yeah, very good. Well, it's super to meet you and uh, yeah, I'd actually then, you know, would love to connect with you You know outside of here as well and and just get to know you more Great And and and uh, you know go world mobile by the way fantastic, uh, okay, so Uh, let's um do some catch up, uh, really quickly with everybody else as well Maybe bruce or Rodolfo Is there anything you'd like to kind of catch us up on since it's been a while since we've met December 19th? I think Uh, nothing new just happy new year to everybody What we did doing last days Yeah, no catch ups, but uh I wrote us being a little modest. I think uh, so so, you know, we're both roots ID guys We've been doing a ton of work With roots wallet, which is a didcom v2 based identity wallet and Some of our customers that are didcom v2 Related, uh, so tons of work going on there You know, we had a break too. So I guess, you know Maybe we haven't seen a you know as much movement as we normally would see in a month Which feels like a month is a year for us in terms of the amount that we do but Yeah, I mean certainly, uh, let's see. Do we have any roto is there any uh, like near term stuff that we Want to say other than Yeah, just mostly I guess we're doing a ton of implementation work, uh with didcom v2 and trying to Also just consider uh interoperability Uh opportunities, um, I don't know if everybody saw but iaw the internet identity Workshop meets every six months and uh bruce. We met there right this this last November So that was totally cool, but um, it was really neat to Show uh some interop uh with the jff challenge and Then, uh, like there was like a hackathon that I missed I would have loved to have attended it, but I think the varamo guys kind of said hey, let's do a quick Let's see if we can make didcom v2, uh agents talk to each other and things like that Which was not super successful, but at the same time it's successful in the sense that you know You know, you kind of you kind of find the pain points and learn from that And then uh, also just related to all that, uh, you can see here. We were listing a ip3 Hey, if I a ip3 is going to be did com v2 heavily focused And as part of that we are doing some work with the aries agent test harness where we want to kind of grow um the tests related to did com v2 and aip 3.0 whatever that you know ends up settling in as um I'm sure we're going to talk about that a ton on wednesday at the aries meeting um But yeah, we'd like to show a wider set of tests and get those tests um kind of graduate those tests to interoperability level for for the aries community, so Yeah, tons tons going on on our side. How about you bruce? Happy new year to everyone nice to meet you thomas welcome Um Since i'm helping uh phil wendley supervise some students who are working on did com v2 They had a very long break and we're going to meet with them again Perhaps as early as tomorrow To see what to see if they did anything Otherwise nothing to report there. Okay. Yeah, very good Awesome. Okay. Well, let's um, let's talk about aip3 Well, I guess I should ask is are there topics that that that we should discuss today um I was essentially going to just kind of mostly catch us up with each other and talk about aip3 and then Kind of you know set a plan for you know, what what this group would like to achieve Over the next we'll say, you know to next meeting and then over maybe the next month So any any topics in particular Okay Yeah aip3 that's the big one. Okay good Let's see go to link open new tab Okay, so this loads and Okay, so the uh, yeah aries interrupt profile three um as proposed This thing has been evolving a bit essentially. I you know not to take Too much credit, but this group essentially prompted this aip3 Movement in the sense that we want to see did come v2 Adopted more across aries. That's why we started this working group and you know, it kind of grew into this initially It was just a thread on discord But then that prompts the the idea that okay if if did come v2 is going to be this kind of main communication Layer obviously did come v1 had quite a bit of adoption But now how do we get More of the agents moving towards did come v2. So then naturally hakan and judith and all the work they're doing with akapai Comes into scope Because we want to see akapai have did come v2 support and then Roto and I have spent a bunch of time in the afj meetings. So that's aries framework javascript And they are in the middle of a big pull request with the sycpa folks for integrating did come v2 there as well and then ridolfo is very involved In the did come user group and spec group to Essentially, yeah see did come v2 grow and mature And so here we are We're with aries trying to create this interrupt profile that will will Acknowledge did come v2 as as kind of an important piece of interop across aries And so this list initially we had discussed This kind of brings us up to today. I think is that We started discussing kind of well, what are the base requirements? That we need and and anybody feel free to jump in if you have questions or or if i'm missing something but Obviously the spec that did come v2 spec Is is going to be a base requirement And then, you know, kind of what are these other pieces that we should include and at some point in our last meeting I think we were even questioning whether The if if we have these sub pieces like mediation and indie credentials and ld credentials and and so you kind of consider these These optional things that you can put on top that maybe you give guidance to the rest of the aries community of Okay, if you you know if you want to support let's say chat Or you want to support ld credentials? Here's kind of the common well-tread path, you know to go to to to do that We kind of started to question scrolling back up here We we kind of started to question well should credentials Like wacky pecs Should should this be a base requirement or something that you know is kind of an optional path And that that ended up being a little bit funny for me because I questioned that in in the aries meeting And the currents will say steven and sam curran not brothers not not related um they They they they kind of paused when I said, you know, oh can we make this an optional path and I I had to kind of revisit the mission of aries to realize it is very credential focused, right? so for aries to create an interop profile that has you know credential exchange and and and Proof presentation to have that be something considered to be optional kind of doesn't make sense in in The context of aries and so that's good, you know for me to have that realization and kind of fall back and and say Uh, okay, if we're the aries did come v2 group and and you know, we want to see aip 3.0 Expand and grow and flourish within the aries ecosystem. Well, then obviously We're going to to have issue credential And present proof be a part of the base requirements any thoughts on that comments? Yeah, I I would like to comment. So How shall I start so it it may be spectacularly misguided to Take these out, right? But at the same time if we talk about uh, we see Um, then You know that automatically makes makes sense or has a strong connection to the way Um occupy does or aries does verifiable credentials, right? So we see alone is not enough Right to to say we we want to have in the abstract way We want to have verifiable credentials because there exist various standards to do this, right? So If we if we define uh an interoperability profile, uh, this would largely mean if interoperability within the aries within the hyper ledger Community, right? But if we take this larger Right, and if we take it really large, right? Then self-summon identity only makes sense if it's globally available across all sorts of Ecosystems that exists, right? So so we have with uh, did conv2 We have a fantastic standards that can possibly bridge that gap because it is likely to or it may be likely to To get adopted in the, uh, w3c, uh group, right and more and more Folks will focus on this, right? And and then we see is is a layer on top, right? So so What I would very much like to see is is the level of interoperability That covers the basics of what is absolutely necessary For did conv2 communication. Yeah, perhaps abstracting the idea of of how we do verifiable credentials And there are various ways of doing so and and there is an in areas particular specific way and there is also From what I've seen so far. There's a there's another way of of doing this Which world ID is using, right? And and they would not be interoperable with each other, right? So so there is work to be done to define specs and standards that That have the sovereign network Talk to the to the european network, right? And and what I would would like to see is Is a is a foundation for this work to happen, right? So so that that is low hanging fruit even for for folks who are not associated with hyper ledger to come up with an agent or come up with some sort of infrastructure Which is interoperable, right? And it If if that's the case it would initially at least exclude verifiable credentials Yeah, so I I during those discussions. I I love everything that you said I do think there are There's some interesting points of view and and I think they I think they carry a lot of of weight is that if we If we're not specific at all then essentially the did come be to spec itself is Kind of what you're talking about in terms of a generic interoperability of communication And hyper ledger right now has quite a bit of effort going on to work its way away from Like a like sovereign base indie based Ledgers and to work its way. It's working away from a non cred specific Credentials right so they The the a non cred spec for instance as kind of moved up out of Kind of the indies umbrella and now is its own Level within hyper ledger and they even kind of had moved out of hyper ledger only to come back because you know, you need some foundation right to Some community to to develop these things But all that to say is I do think that the acapella and afj Agents I can't speak for the other ones because I'm not as familiar with them But I think they're trying to be ledger agnostic And I think that they're trying to be a credential format agnostic But so I think that you can still be focused on the ability to Transact verifiable credentials as part of identity without Kind of the the legacy that that used to exist where indy was, you know, very tightly bound to indy creds and And Essentially, yeah indy ledger So in light of that when when we've kind of pulled back more and more generic Which I feel like you were kind of doing there, uh, thomas I think that sam and them have kind of said well, that's that's what the did come Like user group and the did come spec folks with diff That's their focus is kind of, you know, okay, you know did come doesn't even need A credential exchange and in fact bruce Part of his use case is what had prompted us because I think in his use case credential exchange was not The focus for for their work And so that's where we started the question, you know Do we do we should we even define that as part of ap 3.0? But then I feel like that then What i'm saying is takes you back to more of the diff did come user group And and spec group rather than the aries group, which is focused on agents ability to To pass credentials and and do all the things that you need to do with credentials thoughts on that Yeah, that well, there would be still there would still be a gap, right? So of course the did come v2 spec it defines all this but what you have In your first line trust being out of band, you know discovery routing. This is a very good list, right? maybe if If the the lowest level of interoperability would also define the various did methods that need to be supported, right? So so you would have you would have did key for example as as the minimum requirement, right? you would have you would have to have Or did pier? Yeah, or did pier, right? Yeah, but I but I read up on did pier and and you know It seems that folks are already moving away from that, right? So I'm not here to judge this. I I know Yeah, sure. Yeah, really. No, these are good. Yeah, I have no idea What is the right path to do? But but what i'm fairly sure about is if if you take the did The did come v2 spec And and then you have You know trust out of band is very important, you know to make first contact So out of band needs to be well defined in this interoperability profile Then the did methods that You know need to be involved need to be defined, you know So so for folks to get started, right? And and then if you have those two, right? You have the foundation for a meaningful Did come v2 message exchange, right? And and Then, you know for me the story would already end If if you can do plain text signed and encrypted Did come v2 messages, right? So so you make first contact You know what what did methods to use and and you can meet in a meaningful way Exchanges methods, right? And and then you have a feature recover Discovery and routing and that is also very important, right? So so for me this this would already be a very nice bundle, right? Which would have some attractiveness to to folks outside of the hyper ledger community So they can say oh, well, you know With this insight we can be interoperable and get the checkmark, right? So so we have we have basic Basic level AIP 3.0 interoperability, right? So so we can make first contact We know what did methods to use and we can say these three types of messages across right and and this in itself I would say has tremendous value and then we haven't even talked about verifiable credentials Yeah, you're very much echoing what what we talked about on the 19th Bruce or roto. Are you are you guys interested in you know happening just Lance I I have an area of ignorance that you can perhaps fill in Which is that or at least we're dolphin I'll try to There there are there are several VC Things in the in the optional parts And what and then there is this walkie-packs, which is required. Why is it special? Why is it the one that is That of all the VC methods Well, actually the chosen I think that the walkie-packs is more Agnostic to the VC type So it's just the protocol to exchange credentials And then you have different options to how you understand or you interpret the collection, but that's just the protocol to to exchange it and present it Oh, thank you. Thank you that helps and and and then so Would it be the case that to be a IP 3 you would have to meet all the base requirements and at least one of the actual VC formats Yeah, you should I think because it's not you just They are something that the other party cannot understand. Okay, so I I guess that's self-evident But I think it would be good to call it out in the IP 3 so And wacky pecs is Literally considered an interrupt profile, which is which is Interesting and so Interesting and so The Aries community if if the Aries community is focused on verifiable credentials then truly AIP 3.0 is really trying to get to wacky pecs Which I think now they call wacky did come I think wacky pecs is kind of the older name but Um And interestingly in in jff the jff challenge They took shortcuts with the wacky pecs Interop profile because they wanted to show Interoperability but without having to implement everything that wacky pecs or wacky did come Requires because it's quite What it's quite a rich It's quite a rich definition in that in order to capture kind of the the ideal set of the ideal protocol that you would go through in order to do Uh a credential issuance and acceptance and all these things so That that is another thing that that you know, literally prompted this group was Okay, kid could we even have like the simple path for for uh wacky did come that's kind of this subset Of that spec. Uh, and so Yeah, I think this discussion is is reminding me of all these things which is really good You know, that's the good way to to launch here in 2023 and um Yeah, I don't I I feel I agree with everything everyone's saying in terms of Just, you know, how far to go In terms of Aries and and I totally agree that it would be incredibly useful without even verifiable credentials to have Kind of this interop profile and hat is that something that maybe should even be defined in diff, which is like a Okay, say non verifiable credential focused um Interop profile that includes that doesn't include wacky did come but does include Kind of these base features discovery and oh, here's a did method that everybody should should should support but by the way, you know, like thomas says did pier is uh The most useful and yet probably you know, it's going to see Transition uh in the future. So yeah, any thoughts on all that stuff Which way are we going away from as we can move away from did pier is what is the what is the next Yeah, we've um, we've only heard Rumors and kind of I don't want to call them rumblings but uh comments by people like daniel hardman that um And and and people like sam smith from the carry side of things essentially I think that I I want to say that the kind of underlying thought is that did pier for one thing I think it has three kind of variants But only two of the three are ever used and one of those two Is essentially did key. So really there's only one there's only one portion of did pier That is the one that everybody uses, right? Because otherwise they're either using did key or not implementing the the kind of again idealistic exhaustive You know speck of of did pier and so But even that I think daniel is conceding that it's not Minimally sufficient But I don't really know the details on that sam smith talks a lot about like these minimally sufficient Layers these minimal sufficient implementations and There is quite a bit of movement for daniel hardman. I believe you know with the carry ecosystem and so all these these Aids they call them and carry Are going to influence I think Where where did pier might go in the future? So we don't know what that is Maybe roto if you have any thoughts on that Just say that this is not for now. So yeah, yeah in the future. So that's gonna be like the five seven Yeah, don't worry about that That's the right comment what we mentioned on on the eddy's call as well is regarding did pier is that we may add on on that They did change that that rfp RFC and Maybe have did it pier This The part of the day that is interesting to us, but also maybe add did it web or something Simpler to implement. So In order to show interoperability So having another simple method that anybody can can implement easily Don't requires maybe libraries because the web is so simple that Can can be implemented And added also as an option and and roto thomas mentioned did key and You know, i'm not as good at explaining all of this but essentially did key doesn't have a did document associated with it Right and so did pier is They can have it. They have a big document But also have the the keys actually the the keys the key the only one key On the key Yeah, you don't come put the service endpoint and this communication the same service endpoint is is really interesting So you you can use it, but you need another way to Share the endpoint to the other part Right, and the idea is having one document that can explain everything. So just receive one d i d you can Discover everything on on the on the document. So that's why did it key doesn't fit really well with that And did it pier is the same but adding this part of on the document. So Yeah Good. Thank you for clarifying that So, uh, yeah, the question is so so I think I think it's okay for us to keep well Are there any thoughts on If there was no Base requirement for Credentials where where do you think this is an uh, uh interoperability profile that Should live in biff or something like that, you know a separate from a ip 3.0 But I guess where where should we be projecting this message that? if you If you remove the the walkie-pax You're gonna see you're not keep only did it come plus did it pier right and that's almost did it come You You don't need a a ip or profile. It's just you comply. We did it come b2 or not Yeah, and then Oh, we recommended pier Right. Sure. Fair enough Anyway, for me, it's just it's more like Political or not, but it's the same to having in the base or having an optional, right? But that's for me my point Uh, I think there's a practical angle to this So at the end of the day, we would like to have some sorts of test tannas that can prove Successful interoperability Right with basic functionality, right? So so the shortest route to to that piece of software, right? That that would be the value, right? So, you know, if we if we can if we can get this into Into acupy or some other some other agent, right? And if we can if we can reuse Uh, the existing areas test suite, right to Uh, to implement that right? So so that would be a success, right? So so and and a success that is ritual You know within let's say the next six months Would be massively beneficial, right? So so this consideration might even influence what we put here in the spec, right? So so we might want to have something that can you know for all intents and purposes get done In in in the next six months, right? So we have it in a test suite. We have it implemented in at least one, uh Agent, right, which is the reference implementation And then we have a test suite that tests it and then we have a bunch of other agents Which can then run against the test suite and verify their intro successful interoperability at that level Right Yeah, very good. One nice nice part of the test harness. I'm not an expert, but it's You you're gonna also split that maybe the base requirements Different test. So you're gonna see you you may not Have a hundred percent of the base But you're gonna pass did it come you're gonna pass did it be You're gonna pass inside the did it come you're gonna pass maybe the trust pin Discover features and you won't pass the walkie-packs, right? Yes, at least you're gonna have a level you can implement the same framework and maybe you're gonna be Not hundred percent on that, but you're gonna see what are you interested in and you pass it and it's okay for Yes, of course But but you already see that you mentioned a couple of things Right and and these are the things that that are important to you and it would would be nice to have one name for it Right. Yeah, you know This is actually a really good point. I think uh You know This alone will make this meeting so valuable So you can use any tags that you want within the Aries agent test harness So so each test has a has a tag to it, right? And and so some tests have a ip 2 on it A bunch of tests are going to have a ip 3.0 on it But we could define as this group we could define a tag that's essentially a ip 3 But without verifiable credentials, right and we could come up with our own name for that Exactly exactly and maybe we call it something like did come v2 minimalist or something like that and then you could show like Oh, you know, I'm a hundred percent You know interoperable at the did come v2 minimalist level or or or maybe it's called Yeah, a simple path or something You call it silver. Yeah, yeah Yeah, or maybe maybe we just say did come v2 peer, right? To note that it's a peer did uh and there could even be did come v2 web or something like that So, okay. I think that that is excellent and and I'm about to do January is going to be a lot of Aries agent test harness work on my side Which will help me to come up to speed on this, but it also This is a good opportunity for us to kind of define some new tags because When I started going through the did come v2 Related tests in the Aries agent test harness and I started reaching out and you know Kind of like why aren't agents being scored, you know, and they're like, well, that's not interoperability That's not an interoperability matter. And that's what agent Aries agent test harness is about there They said, oh, maybe the profile you're talking about is like bleeding edge, right? That was kind of the comment Uh, and again a IP 3.0 is supposed to kind of be that new bleeding edge thing, but yeah, we there's no reason we can't have multiple, uh a new tags good I'm going to uh, let's see note that Okay, other thoughts I have something that's kind of, um tangential, but, um The the students that i'm supervising helping to supervise Really ought to be using the Aries agent test harness But they haven't been able to figure out how to How to Get their agent Into play in the test harness to whom can I Reach out For for help with that What language are they using? Pardon me what language Uh, they're they're doing it within picos and so they're not using any libraries other than sick pa Oh, okay I'm sorry. I was typing was your question, uh, that about integrating with the Aries agent test harness Yes, yes, they they've been able to use it to set up Set up configurations with With existing agents, but they don't know how to put their own into play Yeah, fair enough. Okay. So that is literally the work that i'm going to be doing This month. So if if that's something that, um, you would like Um And maybe they could be on the discord or our Aries, uh Did come v2 discord, uh, or maybe we can find another way that we could communicate as i'm going through it I'm happy to uh, like collaborate with with them and and talk about it because essentially what I did before the Before the new year was I got to the point where I had Created a new uh agent definition But underlying was just occupy all over again, but I just wanted to show myself right How do I you know set up the little pieces that that connect back into the Aries agent test harness so that I can You know say, okay. Here's my new agent Run the test, you know against my new agent and underlying was just occupy now I want to pull that occupy out and you know start to add in other other agents So if that's something that you know, I can answer questions with them or or you know, whatever I think Um Let's see. Do I have that somewhere they can see it? I'll I'll make sure that whatever I'm working on is uh available um, you know There's a there's a meeting there's a by Meeting for this handle, right? It's a monthly meeting. Yep. And so, um Uh that I mean you can get some help there, but um, also there is a channel within discord that Is Very helpful. Where do I go for that? Yeah, there's an Aries dash agent dash test dash harness Let me see if I can get a link to this thing Uh channel that um people have responded to my questions in there before Oh, great. That would be great. Thank you I'll at least uh, I'll at least just type it into the on there. Let's send it on the eighties discord Yeah on the Aries discord the hyper ledger hyper ledger foundation There's a channel called Aries agent test harness like that Uh, and so yeah, they've been helpful. That's where I essentially started asking the questions like, hey You know, how come when I look at uh scores of agents I don't see any of them getting scored based on their did come v2, you know Tests and then they explained to me, you know, that's not interop yet because it's not part of a profile and So on and so forth. So that's literally how we've gotten here now. So, okay So much. Yeah, I I pestling the discord. Oh Thank you rodo. That's very helpful Yeah welcome And uh, yeah, if they and they're welcome to at me as well on discord. Um, you know, uh, if you're in Our did come v2 one, which I assume you are but I'm just looking Have you posted in there? I believe so Okay, I I think I've just looked there but Fair enough. Yeah, as long as you have access. Yeah, you'll see my post so they can they can at me It's uh, yeah, my name's a little goofy me grim lance Yes, maybe maybe I should uh, you know telegram sam he's uh He's you can think you can change the name, right? Yeah, yeah, maybe I should maybe I should just call this guy. Yeah for Yeah, essentially it it boils down to implementing and a back channel for for the test suite Yes, and there are various, you know, if you look at this the various It's actually not that hard, right? So if you look at this you pick your favorite Language or your favorite, you know, if you if you can read python then the python back channel is really easy to read Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and Just one more thing one more thing I have. Um, if you if you look at This Right, so so that link here. This is really just for my own progress On on on the test suite and what you see here is is a is a markdown markdown tables Which can be generated With this command up here generated with right So I thought I thought this is really useful. So I I extended the test suite thing with with that, right? So it it generates if you like, uh, a markdown language and further down I have The table for for 2.0 and you see hardly anything is done But but it would be so useful if if you could have a similar command tag AIP and then whatever we decide Our tag should be and and you get this instant markdown table, right with with all the Descriptions of what you need to do and then you just work your way down and and you have interoperability When the table has all, you know check marks That's exactly what we should shoot for. Yeah, perfect. Thomas. I appreciate you sending that. That's that's great. Let me post that in the Yep Yeah, that's really great. Okay. That's our time a fantastic kickoff You know, there's always the nerves that if you're just going to kind of You know reconnect what's going to happen. Uh, you know, is it going to be a full meeting and I think this was perfect We hit the ground running and uh, so I think Yeah, obviously areas agent test harness Work will be super important this month And then yeah, if you're able to attend the other areas meetings, especially the working group meeting in On wednesdays Obviously, we'll be talking much more about a ip 3.0 and it's so valuable because then we get sam And his feedback as well as in the did come user group and working group meetings, which Rodolfo is today the day that daniel harman's going to talk um Yeah, today he's talking about Something really important that's skipping my mind No, it's for for the future also I'm trying to to integrate or to join with forces with the carry ecosystem. I think the The wet notes I'm looking into the future and see how everybody can collaborate and try to group everybody sound only one In the future one path Right, so that should I don't know what's gonna gonna be going on, but I think it's Yeah, is is that talk part of the hyper ledger? Schedule as well or is this somewhere else? No, it's diff Yeah, yeah diff. Um, let me see if I can I know we're Okay, so that meeting is Let's see one two three four five It's in five hours So it's pretty late if you're in europe Um, that's kind of why we put this meeting earlier And let's see. Can I actually come up with a link for this? And hopefully this is the right one Because I know that daniel was posting which Zoom it's in but anyways if you get uh, yeah connected with the diff calendar You'll see it on there. So perfect. Thanks. Yeah, great. All right. Awesome to have you thomas great to see you bruce and roto Thank you. Yes. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Bye