 Welcome to today's webinar on DMP data management planning lessons from Europe. My name is Liz Stokes. I'm coming to you from the University of Technology, Sydney. And I am part of the skilled workforce team of the Australian Research Data Commons. As we begin, I would like to acknowledge the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation and pay my respects to Elders both past and present recognising them as traditional custodians of the land on which I'm standing here. Our guest speaker today, Sarah Jones from the Digital Curation Centre in the UK, is joining us from the traditional lands of the Boon Warung people of the Kulin Nations where she's visiting the University of Monash Caulfield campus in Melbourne. I'd like to pay respects to any First Nations people who are present here today and acknowledge that Aboriginal sovereignty has not been ceded in this country. So, on with our program today. So I'm very excited to introduce Sarah Jones to you who has been working as part of her work. She's the Assistant Director of the Digital Curation Centre and she has been involved in data management planning on a lot of different fronts, most specifically with her work in the DMP online. Sarah is going to share with us some lessons from Europe and what's been happening with DMP infrastructure and machine actionable initiatives. Sarah, I'm ready for you now. So thanks very much for being for Liz. What I'm going to do is talk about data management planning. It's an area as Liz mentioned that I do a fair amount of work on and I'll reflect on what's happening in Europe. So I'm based at the DCC in the UK but we do a lot of work in the European context. These slides are actually already online if you want to grab the slides but they will be shared afterwards as well. So I wanted to begin by just setting the scene. I don't know to what extent you're all familiar with data management plans so I'll give a bit of introductory context about what plans are, kind of the drivers for these and some of the recent developments and then what I'm going to focus on is talking about some of the trends from Europe, how that's informing our work and potentially it could be useful in your context too. So first off I thought I'd start with a definition of a DMP. At a very basic level, a DMP is a formal document which outlines how research data is going to be handled both during the project and after. And certainly in the UK and the US context, data management plans have often come up when people are applying for funding. They're something that goes in as part of a grant application. What we're seeing is that people want to make sure that there's proper benefits that come from data management plans and that it's not this kind of static, secure document. So you can see a second definition here that we're talking about dynamic inventories of research methods and outputs that evolve over time. And I think some of the work that's going on in Australia is more aligned with this definition. You're often having tools that are more like data management systems that are really capturing everything about the output being created. And then a third definition you'll see here, this comes from the Fair, Learning Fair Into Reality report. And this talks about DMPs being active and enabling information exchange across different tools within the system. And that we tie the DMP to its implementation. So really what we're seeing in terms of the definitions is that this kind of machine actionable agenda is coming more to the fore and that people are thinking about data management plans beyond just being a document, something that is tied to the implementation of a plan that evolves. So the vision for data management, machine actionable data management plans is really going beyond this static document into something that is a lot more useful to the different stakeholders involved. And in these bullets here you can see some of the data better and discover data more easily because the DMP is really the first indication of what data is going to be created. Having a kind of machine actionable DMP can help infrastructure providers to plan their resources. They know what the requirements are in terms of storage for example and plan the capacity that's needed. So it's really helping people provide more effective data services and actually having something that's more machine actionable can help funders to monitor their data related activities as well. There have been a couple of papers that I would point to. A couple of years ago we did a workshop where we tried to gather requirements for machine actionable DMPs and since then we've done a paper on 10 principles for the MADMPs. If you're interested in this area there's some background literature. There are a number of drivers for data management plans and I think these vary in each context. So I mentioned earlier that in the UK and the USA the requirements are really coming to the fore. That's the way most people hear about big management plans. It's usually when they're doing their grant applications. But universities are also putting expectations out around DMPs. And I think particularly in the Australian context that seems to be the biggest driver. And there it means that the priority can be quite different for different institutions. It might be about risk management. It might be about their capacity planning and making sure that they actually provide the right kind of environment for the different research projects. All people might be completing a DMP to achieve another goal. So in Australia you seem to link your DMP to the storage allocation often. One of the big drivers that came up in university in Singapore they actually don't release the funds from different research projects until the DMP is completed. So the research office has quite a strong mandate there. So that's why researchers are engaging. They want their funds released. And also it might be to try and engender good practice. So often data management plans are starting to be created by HDR or PhD students as a way to try and get good practice in early on. In case people aren't familiar with a data management plan it's typically something that's covering the whole lifecycle of the data. So what's going to be created? How that data is going to be created and managed? So what standards will be used? How the data will be stored and backed up? There are usually questions around ethics and intellectual property largely in terms of any restrictions on the data any sensitivities or restrictions on sharing and then the DMP usually covers the longer term plans for sharing and preservation as well. There are a number of tools available for data management plans already. So ourselves at the DCC we offer DMP online and in the States there's a tool called DMP tool. We actually came together and joined up our code base so we have a common open source code base that we run each of our services from. There are also other tools in the European context like RDM Organiser which comes out of Germany and in Australia you have several tools like Redbox which is offered by QCIF or the research data manager at the University of Queensland. I think it's probably about a year ago now we set up a site called Active DMPs where we're trying to hold together the different requirements for data management plans and the tooling specifically and also to record the different initiatives that are going on. So I'm conscious that we don't have the CYRO RD plan at all in this list so if there are other activities you're aware of this is actually, you can update it yourself by submitting a pull request on GitHub so please share information about other tools or correct any mistakes in this. So I've been here on placement for I think about four or five weeks now and I've learned a little bit about the Australian context and these are just my reflections. You seem to have a much less formal funder requirements here. There is a code and it doesn't mandate DMPs there's an encouragement in the kind of guidelines associated with the code but you don't have very heavy drivers from funders so it's typically the institutional perspective of driving your DMPs here and as I alluded to before I think your tools are quite different to what we have in Europe because they have a much broader coverage. You are often talking around data management as a whole concept and having tools that cover the allocation of storage and link to lab notebooks and have integrations with that wider ecosystem rather than just having something that's about the plan. I think that's a really positive step. I think there's a lot that we could learn from you as well as you learning lessons from Europe. In discussions with a number of the tool providers the key piece of work that seems to still be going on in your context is the end of the life cycle. So once you've got all your data in your system figuring out how to select or keep and how to publish that data and link up with your repository infrastructure. I did a blog where I've made some reflections on the Australian context and ideas of how we could potentially collaborate further and I'll pick up on that again at the end. So what I want to do now is talk about some of the emerging trends in data management planning specifically looking at what's going on in Europe and elsewhere. So as I mentioned for ourselves in the UK and for the USA the funder requirements is a very big driver but globally there are lots of funders that are asking for DMPs. It's not just UK and Europe. This list isn't comprehensive but it's just to show you the breadth of funders. It's from all different areas of research all the different kind of supplementary funders as well as big national ones like NSF or the Academy of Finland. What we're seeing is that the requirements from funders are starting to change so traditionally they would always ask for a DMP at the application stage but increasingly funders are shifting their policies so they either require a DMP during the project or they expect the DMP to be a living document that's updated. So NERC in the UK for example they have a very basic requirement literally I think three or four questions for the DMP application stage and then they expect a full DMP to be written in conjunction with the designated data centre once an award has been made and the European Commission they don't actually ask the DMP at the application stage although some details can be submitted about the data plans. They view the DMP as a deliverable and they expect that it's something that's updated at least at project review time but whenever significant changes arise. With the European Commission I think because it's a deliverable that's changing people's attitudes to DMPs a lot more people are publishing their DMPs because they expect to publish their deliverables and I think that's actually quite a positive shift because if information is available there's more we can do with it. The other shift we're seeing particularly in terms of funder policies is that the owners are starting to be placed on universities a lot more. So in 2011 in the UK the EPSRC which is our Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council they released quite a different policy quite groundbreaking because they weren't saying that research is needed to develop DMPs that's the typical policy statement in the UK. They said that the research organisation has a responsibility to support data management and uni should ensure DMPs are in place and maintained by funders but really what they were looking for was a response from the institution not from the individual researcher and they expected institutions to show that they had policies and infrastructure support for data management and that led to the growth of a lot of data services within UK universities. More recently our Arts and Humanities Research Council has updated its policy and it has a similar on us on institutions so now when a research organisation is within a grant they have to pick this statement which confirms a whole series of things that they agreed to and I've put a basic summary of some of those in this quote and I have a sign that the institution is able to store the data appropriately during the life cycle of the grant that the relevant people are being consulted as you know the research team has spoken with the library or IT services and that the plan that's been put in has been considered and agreed by the institution so that's quite a big step and you know it makes sure that you know could put the institution at risk if there are things in those plans that they haven't checked but this again is driving new approaches within UK universities they're starting to more proactively check data management plans before they go as part of grant agreements and another funder in Norway, Research Council in Norway, they have introduced the policy and again this is expecting the university takes more control really that they will check the MPs and make sure they're made openly available it's only these for these policies certainly the HSE and Research Council Norway ones some of the bigger institutions more proactively responding but I think it will take a while for a shift there because this is a lot of work and responsibility on institutions I think what we've seen so far in light of this is that institutions are starting to use these policies or these shifts to make a case for more support for resources internally so that they can provide this support the other shift we're seeing in terms of the coverage plans and more than welcome trust issued new guidelines in 2017 that asks for an outputs management plan rather than the data management plan and they ask that this OMP covers the data sets any original software new materials like antibodies or cell lines or reagents and also that it considers the IP so what's going to be patented or copyrighted and what kind of confidence know how there is that's going to come out of the grant the EPSRC has a requirement in some of its programs for software management plans too I think it's really what I would like to see is that we start to broaden out in the way that welcome trust has that when we're thinking about a data management plan we're not just thinking about the data because actually it's kind of meaningless in isolation you need the code as well you need to know you need to have all of those different outputs and that wider context I want to reflect on some results we got from a survey we did in the European context through openair which is one of our big infrastructure projects and the third day expert group we looked at the Horizon 2020 DMPs so we did a survey I think we got a couple of hundred responses that were from researchers that put PIs on Horizon 2020 awards as well as support staff within institutions that were working with these research groups and I was really surprised that we got 60% positive response to whether a DMP is useful or not I expected a much lower figure because the Horizon 2020 template is really quite long and complicated but these quotes that I've highlighted here even when it is like that people can still find it quite a useful exercise so there is this concern that it's administrative but on reflection people have found it useful or they found that it's a bit balanced it was frustrating, it was cumbersome in part but they actually found that that reflection on the potential issues and how to address them within their project was a valuable activity so I think it's actually good that people are finding the process useful and what we need to learn from this is that we need to make sure the DMPs we have are on a burden so we need to keep them as short and simple and as kind of tailored to the local context as possible so that we're not just asking for various information we're actually using that information as much as we can and pre-inputting information where we can do one of the concerns that came out of that survey we did was that language is a real barrier so in the European Commission context under Horizon 2020 the DMP template is essentially structured around fare and the respondents of the survey mentioned 40 terms that were unclear to them and you can see the primary ones in the word cloud here and I think sometimes we don't realise that a lot of the terms we bandy around are really not clear to researchers so asking them how their data is going to be improper or asking them what ontologies they're going to use can leave them confused and I really like this quote at the bottom one of the respondents who said that without the help of their Swedish National Data Service they wouldn't have been able to do the DMP so I think this shows that we need to think about how we define the DMP to make sure it is clear but also we do need support services to understand and complete those DMPs in some cases the other thing that came out quite strongly is that the priorities for support from the users were really to simplify the DMP so we gave them a whole series of options that they could prioritise and the things that came out at the top were suggesting relevant standards giving example answers providing more dropdowns based on what's good practice for given discipline or more disciplinary guidance and tailoring so people are really wanting these recommendations they don't want a free text box they want I'm in engineering give me some clear pointers as to what I should be doing or what's the good practice for my field we're interested in things like prefilling information or sharing information with other services but they came lower down so I think we need to make sure that some of the basic are in place decent templates and good guidance go a long way another thing is that universities are requiring potential plans from HDRs or PhD students and this is really to try and make sure we have good practice early on in research careers and one of the things that's come out that's working really nicely about this is that often universities are asking supervisors to review the DMP and that's a way to try and get PIs and more senior academics aware of good practice in research data management and sharing so they're not asking them to complete the DMP themselves but they're kind of training them via the back door there was a whole discussion on the research data manager and they all list about this a couple of years ago and actually that just got reinvigorated just a couple of days ago I think it was Anna Clement or somebody had asked for updates so there's currently a discussion thread going on about this and I mentioned that more DMPs are also being published nowadays certainly under Horizon 2020 because it's a deliverable project seem quite keen to make their DMPs available some publish them via tools like DMP online others put them in repositories like Zenodo or publish in journals and I think it is good if we can encourage people to share their DMPs early and openly because that enables us to reuse more of the information to inform service delivery or to help the discovery of data sets it also helps to provide examples of good practice for others to learn from and I know a lot of universities in the UK and elsewhere are trying to have libraries of good practice DMPs as a training resource so I want to close by thinking about what you can do and where you can learn more and I think if you're engaging in data management plans I think it's good to offer a range of services you don't want to just offer one thing, one tool or one approach because researchers will vary and will want different types of support so I've given this example from Stanford University obviously because it's in the States they have a lot of funder requirements so they have information on the different funding agency requirements they've got some good practice guidelines, they have an online tool, FAQs and workshops and they also offer DMP review service so people can submit their planning and feedback and I think it's good to offer a range of different types of support I think that data management plan can also be a good talking point this slide comes from Marie Lisa Kuznieny at the University of Helsinki and there they kind of have an RDM consulting service where they bring together different stakeholders from the institutional services but they also will help research teams think about the best ways to manage their data and it's a way for them to raise awareness of the different expectations that a researcher might have to meet from their funder or publisher or elsewhere but also to help them understand the different areas like research ethics and to point them to relevant services from the institution or elsewhere and sometimes that discussion can be a really good way of actually fleshing out the DMP another impression I really like there was a project in the US called Dart which is DMPs as a research tool this was a three IMLS funded project and what they did they developed it's something analytic group it reviewed data management plans so they loved to watch it be covered and talked about you know what is a good answer, what's a reasonable answer what these entities are poor answer what kind of gaps need to be addressed and they find a whole series of DMPs to allow good examples and poor ones and use that to analyse you know where communities were at and to use that to inform their service delivery in the different academic libraries that were part of this a group of institutions in the UK and across Europe have kind of copied this approach in terms of developing rubrics so we have evaluation rubrics for various UK and European funders and they're often used by institutions to try and review DMPs and to give pointers and you can see information about this online I mentioned before about sharing examples of DMPs and there are already some out there that you can use for inspiration LIBA which is the League of European Research Universities has a catalogue of data management plans on DMPs in Odo and they're using a rubric to evaluate these plans and to give pointers as to what strength and weakness of different plans and through tool site DMP online you can also provide kind of catalogue I've noted here the different visibility settings we have are DMPs private by default but organisation or individuals can choose to make them visible within their institution so you have a kind of internal library university or they can also make them public and the other thing that I think is really important is connecting with peers and sharing information with others who are kind of involved in data management plans and I wanted to give the example of how we do this through DMP online so we have regular user groups where we bring people together and we talk about what features they need and kind of flesh out the idea for new features and consult them on how we develop that we have various socials around those user groups as well so the picture in the middle here is which we did wait for and to build rapport across the community I think that's really important because we want people to be able to approach any kind of issue or a small niggle so that we can try and address that within the school we obviously have help desk in various ways for people to get in touch with us mostly drop-ins and one thing we've been doing is a knowledge exchange so we have a blog post every month that comes from somebody in the community about how they're supporting DMPs and in our drop-ins we're also having them give a brief chat so we can start that discussion and promote sharing the cross-institutions about how they do this work we've got a newsletter as well you're welcome to sign up that comes out of the UK efforts of interest to you there is also an ARDC DMP interest group and this is to enable information exchange across all of those working on DMPs so in a similar vein to what we do in the UK and this connects up Australian and New Zealand initiatives with other international efforts I think one of the things that would be useful to discuss on this call is what you want to see from this group so it could provide information and link to the RDA and other global initiatives happening in the DMP space it could offer that kind of monthly knowledge exchange so that you can all share what you're doing and learn from one another or it could provide training and guidance resources so it's really for you to steal what you want from this community and I'd encourage you to kind of put your ideas forward to ARDC there are also international initiatives through RDA which is an active data management plans interest group which is a kind of umbrella group to look at what's happening in terms of DMPs globally and promote coordination and that interest groups are now a couple of working groups one that was about developing common standards for DMPs and one that was about exposing DMPs by taking certain information from DMPs like storage and volumes and sharing that with relevant information and developing essentially an understanding of the different use cases who needs access to what content and when you do have two Australian co-chairs of these groups so Peter has been from Melbourne has been involved in the common standards work and Katharine from Cairo in the exposing DMPs group so I would encourage you to reach out through them but also to join these RDA groups and get involved in the work because the Research Data Alliance is coming to Australia next March I personally think it would be really interesting to do a co-located event on data management plans I've been really impressed to see what tools you have in your context and I think there's a lot of ways that we could exchange internationally it would be good to understand the different requirements landscapes obviously you're not driven as much by funder policies but you do have different user groups and community needs it would be good to share what are the key features or a bit of functionality we're adding to each form what are the trends that are emerging I think it would be good for us to share information on the different tools we have so potentially where it's feasible sharing code but just learning about the functionality in each form what the development roadmap is trying to promote tech exchange so that developers have a forum to share ideas and have a wider sounding board and I think there's lots of ways that we could explore different options for global collaboration so around things like the common standard or integration between different tools DMP tools with other services creating registries of DMPs or different peer support networks so if people are interested in trying to coordinate an event please do reach out to me that's something that I'll be discussing with a number of people and trying to get set up so this if you haven't seen it already is details about the next RDA plenary it will be in Melbourne on the 18th to 20th of March so I can't remember what place of the week that is the co-located events are usually the day before and after and the final thing I wanted to flag if you are delivering services I'm looking at doing data management services we actually have a MOOC that's starting in oh my god not too many days from now and this is about RDA services as a whole it does have sections on data management planning but it's about the broader services at the institution it's run by the DCC together with research data Netherlands so if you're interested by all means sign up and join in the discussions and that I think was the final slide so I can hand back to Liz okay I am going to show I'll show some of my screen but I'm going to bring it over to the over to that and move that along oh no we can just stay here for the moment so oh but if I show my screen then you get to see my terrible google doc that I've collated from the questions that people have brought together before I'm just going to embrace this on the wing here and so these were so here we've got some of the questions that have come in as people registered and Sarah I think that you have your presentation has answered quite a few of those but I thought I would just like to highlight a couple of the more practical questions that came through so if I might ask you one how I thought this question about what are some ways to keep data management plans down to a manageable size for researchers or are some common redundant or less useful questions like what when we're talking about optimising these what kind of advice would you have yeah so I think one piece of advice is thinking about when you're asking for the DMP and what people can realistically answer each stage so I do like that it's very minimal at the grant application stage and then the DMP wants an award to be made because really at that early grant application stage you only really need to know a few key things like is there a large volume of data are there key sensitivities have people costed in relevant support and it's kind of later on when the project's underway you're actually starting to create the data that you really need to think about the best way to create that data the relevant standards and how that data is going to be shared so you can make sure any agreements enable that sharing what typically happens and I think this is why sometimes there's a lot of resistance to DMPs people are given all the questions right from the off and half the time they won't have the answers till later because they either aren't starting the work yet or it's very early days and they haven't determined exactly what will be shared or how or where so I think trying to have the DMP evolve with more questions coming in at a later stage is a good way to do it and I also one thing that I've been struck by here is that you because your data management tools are connected to other systems you pre-populate things a lot more definitely good the more you can have pre-filled and have researchers either just correct or not have to complete the better because if there's empty boxes and you already have the information somewhere else that is really frustrating true and there are also some questions as we can see there about some ways to keep about pre-population another question that's just coming from the chat now have you come across DMP tools that are integrated with other research management services at the University of Canberra we use a research management system called PURE I'm keen to know if there are tools that are already integrated or DMP tools that can speak with other tools yeah so the three examples from Australia the RD Piner SIRO UQRDM are all integrated with other tools within a given institutional context so the UQRDM is at the University of Queensland obviously and SIRO is within their own organizational context the QCIP tool I don't think they have a pure integration but they've been connecting with different lab notebooks and other things I can't think of any tool that's connected already with PURE but there are tools that are working across different systems and exchanging information but at the date they seem to be mostly within one given institutional context although the QCIP tool is open source so you could reuse integrations that others have done can I also ask a question about let's see I'll just go over to the chat box he has a comment about I like the idea of a tool agnostic working group who would help an institution to drive the agenda on support and simplicity of a chosen tool recommendations could then be used as a case for change Christopher I have just got my brain's not working so I've forgotten where you're coming from but you say that you have always presented the DMP tool as something that is a working document and can be revisited over time but the machine actionable concept shows great value and therefore more engagement over the life of the project it's Deakin University thank you Chris okay yeah I think I think having two agnostic working groups as much as possible is best and the RDA groups try and work like that so it's not so even though you know I have a code of one of those groups I don't do it for the DMP online I'm trying to look broader than the tool per se because I think there's a lot in common across all of these tools and we think about the underlying requirements it helps affect the whole more hmm can I um I'm going to bring in a question now who's made a comment that it's definitely good to make DMPs as small and frictionless as possible but it's difficult to change the format slash template once created or to make completely ad hoc DMPs so how do you balance that future funder requirements yeah so I think one thing that impressed me when I've been having meetings here is that people seem to have taken a long time to think about what's in that template and I strongly encourage you to do that so when in the UK we kind of went through a transition that all of these different funders had multiple well they all had one template but you know they meant that we had seven or eight different templates that different unis were using and then universities also introduced their own templates and most of those were very long it seemed to me that it was more about oh what could we ask oh we could ask that and there's a million and one things you could ask so I would really encourage you to think about what you need to ask and how are you going to use every piece of information because you don't want to be asking things just for the sake of it you want to make sure that you do things with that data that actually a researcher providing you with a piece of information about the data they'll create or how they will manage it or how they'll share it either get sped off to other systems or informs something you provide back to them and I think that's really the way to try and keep it minimal and I would take a lot of time to develop that template and test it and develop the guidelines that go with it because the kind of best templates have seen a number of iterations so ESRC for example they had a template they've had one for years but they have looked at the DMP that have come in they've looked at the responses and they've gone ah people are not understanding the question and then they've revised the question or the guidance and I think that's an important thing to do and they take time when you go through the development process certainly there's an example the DMP interest group previously has heard from the University of Technology Sydney where they have turned to their DMP tools so they're using the QCIF red box software and that uses the DMP as a foundation for future data management description for archiving and for publication so there's certainly which I think is a really great method of being able to move from being able to pivot I guess if you will an administrative form that then can be reused in other circumstances and answering other stakeholder comments I wanted to also follow up with a question just note that there was a question in there about changes to the Australian code for the responsible conduct of research and how to accommodate some of those in the Australian context there has been this code strongly encourages the use of data management plans although it doesn't necessarily enforce that however the authors of that code the National Health and Medical Research Council here in Australia have also published a policy on ethical an ethics policy which requires data management plans for research on human subjects so there have been questions on how that can be managed especially from the point of view of people who support researchers within a hospital setting who may not necessarily have access to their data management that hospital organisation or their research centre may not necessarily have data management planning infrastructure in place yet our our response from the ARDC is that most of those researchers will likely have an institutional relationship who are required to provide that kind of infrastructure through the code as a responsibility of institutions but I wondered if you had any other comment on that in terms of DMPs for for research that includes human subjects or potentially sensitive and confidential confidential data does that make things more or less difficult for the sharing and progressive DMPs Yes I don't know exactly what your ethics requirements are here but what we see in the UK and Europe is that sometimes there's duplication because what people are asked to do in a DMP can be similar or fairly close to what they're asked to do within an ethics approval like an ethics statement that they have to submit so I think if certainly if it's being pushed that the projects that have sensitive data are the ones you need to do DMPs I would strongly encourage trying to align any forms researchers have been asked to fill in so they're not then having the same set of questions as twice I think with sensitive data yeah it's certainly more critical to make sure that it's handled well that people are aware of some of the risks and make sure that the data is stored appropriately that it's only shared with relevant people but also I think with sensitive data it's much more important that people will really do the planning from the outset because if they don't get consent to share or if they don't think about that along the time reuse then often they can't do that so there might be an expectation from the Australian funder or HMRC or whatever they're called that the data is shared but if people haven't got consent for that then they're not able to so I think this is why it's important to consider it early on to include that in the kind of research project design and the sensitive data yes it's there's more restrictions that may need to be placed in terms of the sharing anonymising the data or having sharing agreements that control who can use the data for what purposes or how the data can be accessed it might be in a secure data service so these things are important to consider it doesn't necessarily mean the data can't be shared but it does need more thoughts and more planning so it's certainly good to encourage that early on okay well thank you very much for that Sarah and I I'm just going to switch over to some information now in terms of wrapping up about the data management planning interest group so I encourage everyone on this line if you're not already part of this interest group you can join our Slack workspace there at choosing that bit.ly link which will take you to a workspace called Data Librarians but it's not just for Data Librarians where you have there is called DMP Hyphen IG so we have a current community project on building data management planning advocacy one pager resources which are tailored to different shareholders there this project we're going to launch at the birds of a feather session the first round of one pages that we've produced at the e-research Australasia conference in on the 21st to the 25th of October in Brisbane this year that birds of a feather session is quite interesting and we're certainly being innovative in that it will be a project runway style reality TV birds of a feather session where DMPs and their builders will compete for various prizes such as most fair DMP and best demonstration of machine actionable action and other such very serious categories so watch out for that and I encourage you to join us on our Slack channel to continue this conversation so I'll put some of those questions that came in through into that channel following this webinar and we will endeavor to share this webinar with people in the next couple of weeks ok so thanks very much again Sarah for sharing with us lessons from Europe and your thoughts on data management planning advocacy and machine action ability and I hope everyone has had a great time in this last hour excellent thank you very much and with that I guess we're saying goodbye bye bye ok bye everybody thanks for joining