 for joining us for today's webinar and with Ledger Leppert on supply chain traceability. We have Olivier Rickens, CEO of Ledger Leppert with us today, and Milo Kluster, the founder of RTI Blockchain. It'll be an interesting discussion for you. Before we get started, I want to just emphasize that all are welcome here in the Hyperledger community. All our meetings are open to the public, open for anyone to join and participate in, and we welcome your participation. You can find more information on the Hyperledger Code of Conduct, which we do follow in this webinar. We also have an anti-trust policy which governs all meetings at the Linux Foundation. We are recording this session, so that recording will be available on our webinar page after this session, including any download there is for the slides. We are also live streaming the session currently right now as well. We really encourage a lot of participation and engagement in these webinars, where we feel that this is a moment for you to get whatever you can out of it. Our speakers have dedicated their time to be here, so take advantage of that. So please, you can raise your hand and we can ask you to jump off mute. You can put your questions and comments in the QA box or in the chat. So please, we welcome your engagement throughout. Just a quick intro on Hyperledger overall. If you're new to us, we are a collaborative project under the Linux Foundation. We have many different kinds of distributed ledger technologies, tools, and resources. And if you're looking to learn more about that, please visit our website at hyperledger.org. And I'll have some links about that later on at the end. OK, without further ado then, I'll welcome Olivier and Milo to get to the discussion started. Yes, I'll mute myself now. Yeah, thank you very much, Keren. And thank you for the invitation to come talk a bit more about Ledger Leopard and, of course, much more about RTI Blockchain, one of our clients that we've been collaborating with for a long time now already, for more than a year at least, providing services to build what I think it's a beautiful solution for the market. But that's all up for Milo to tell more about it in a later stage. Before I'm going to hand it over to Milo, let me briefly introduce Ledger Leopard as a company. Like you said, my name is Olivier Rikke. And together with Jeroen van Mechelen, I've been running Ledger Leopard for the last few years. And we are an Amsterdam-based company that was fully specialized in blockchain from the beginning. Jeroen and I both being really blockchain entrepreneurs and early adapters here in the industry in the Netherlands. And over the past few years, we witnessed an explosive growth of our company, which is always a good thing. We have a team of approximately 75 people working for us full-time on blockchain solutions, but also for broader technology solutions in itself. And with over 20 clients serving simultaneously, we do can say that we are the biggest blockchain solution provider in the Benelux, together with companies like IBM, which we sometimes complete with, sometimes work together in consortia to come up with solutions, et cetera. So we've been acting since 2017. Officially, I think in a scale of phase, and what I would like to emphasize on is that we really focus on proven technology solutions. So unlike a lot of other blockchain companies, of course, we support proof concepts and demos, but we are really focusing on translating proof concept and demos into live work in products and services of which RTI is one of them. And if you take a look at what we do, what are the general solutions that we work on, it's basically our biggest pillar at the moment is the identity solutions together with supply chain solutions and administration solutions that we work on, all blockchain based. So either in supply chain solutions like RTI, like we're gonna talk today about, but also do a lot of work with regards to SSI, also use Hyperledger, by the way, Hyperledger Indie in this case, and for RTI, we're using Hyperledger Bezu. And besides that, of course, we do a lot of things with regards to helping companies set up blockchains, maintaining blockchain, hosting solutions, software development, app development, et cetera. But that should be more than enough about Ledger Leopard. If you have any questions, you can visit our website, but I do want to emphasize on RTI, which is a company that came up to us beginning of last year. And I knew them from a yes-delved incubator program, and they contacted me if we could help them really translating their product from a demo state into a live production state. And this is where I'll stop talking, and this is a very natural moment for Milu to take over. Yes, thank you. Thank you, Oliver. So I'm Milu Kloster, I'm from the Netherlands. I started studying international business and management, and there I came across for the first time ERP systems like SOP, so I did my minor in SOP, and I did my graduation at Oracle. And once I was graduated, I could start working in our family-owned business as the fifth generation. And I felt, yeah, okay, I'm going to do that, I'm going to work with my father together in the business. And what they do is that they sell smoked fish to supermarkets throughout Europe. So this is where also the idea to start RGI blockchain kicks in because if you are selling to different retail companies and food service companies, they decide on which type of returnable transport items you have to deliver your goods on. And returnable transport items are items like great pellets, roll containers. So once I was working at the business and we were selling to each supermarket, I had to administrate all the movements of these items. And this is a massive administrative hassle. So we didn't have at first time when I started working there in ERP systems. So I started thinking, okay, I'm going to implement one. And I want you to have a good registration module in it for my returnable transport item, but that was not the case. So I started using Excel again. And now I always say Excel is our biggest competitor. So what happens is that each company that is working with returnable transport items is using Excel as the basis for the administration. And from that Excel, you are filling in your own ERP systems, but also all these different dashboards you need because you need to rent these items often. So you need to report all these movements. And it costed me a lot of time and a lot of money to administrate it. And I thought, okay, I have to work with my supply chain partners together and share the data. And I was trying to find the solution for that. And I couldn't find an existing one. So I was thinking maybe I have to quit my job and I have to look into all these different kinds of items and see if I can develop a system myself. While I was searching for a system like that, I came across a blog written by Eve, who is also a co-founder right now. And he stated load carrier management while load carriers are used for common goods. So that was the trigger for me to contact Eve and to start this company we have now because we are all using load carriers to get our products from A to B. So everything you use in daily life has been once transported on or with a returnable transport item. It could also be the C containers, it could also be the beer crates, the wine bottles are shipped on pallets, but also cables for electricity are ripped around cable drums. So everything needs to be transported but also needs to be administrated because these items need to be returned and to be reused. So it was much bigger than I first thought and that's made it much more interesting of course. So I started drawing the business model with Eve and then we came up with the name RTAB blockchain and we thought, okay, we need to use blockchain to share the data with your supply chain partners or not even share to work with your supply chain partners in the same data. So if I'm shipping 10 crates, for example, to Olivier, he also has to accept this 10 crates. But what currently happens is that we use a lot of paper packaging slips. So I write down these 10 items and Olivier is reading this one as a seven. So he administrates 70 items. So there we already have this mismatch but it costs us both a lot of money because at the end of the month or at the end of each quarter or the end of each year, we are going to look at our balance, okay, Olivier, how much did I ship to you and how much did we return and what is the difference between it? And if we are all working in our own Excel and in our own environment, we have a lot of differences and therefore we need to do a lot of balance reconciliation and yeah, there are always losses in this process. So if you work together in the same data, Olivier, she said I reported 10 and Olivier can change it to 70 but I can also see that. So later on, I will also give you a quick demo to show you what we have done and how this works in practice. This is only a small example of what we can solve but when we talk to the organizations to our users, returnable transport items are the highest uncontrolled costs organizations have and we make it visible again so you can make a budget on it. You can also see someone is saying in the chat but it's only high. So perhaps it is fun to show you what we did and what we have built with ledger, why we use ledger and why we use hyper ledger. So after seeing it, you have an image and yeah, everything will be more clear. So I will share my screen. Olivier, do you want to say something? Yeah, and in the meantime, while you're sharing your screen, what we really liked about the project in itself is that you really found a nice solution for a real life problem in the supply chain that wasn't necessarily connected to supply chain provenance because that's the solutions that you see a lot in the supply chain world with using blockchain but really that you wanted to create a system like you guys said it should be as easy as mobile banking but then for returnable items in this case. So that was a challenge well accepted from your side by us. So that's what we really liked about this project. Yes, that's true. So we said we wanted it to be easy to use for everyone in the supply chain. So from the grower to the stores and the whole return flow, but also for each sector. And Eve is really good in painting in PowerPoint. So we made these print screens of mobile banking and we said it should be as easy as these screens. And in the beginning it was quite hard to manage because we built our first prototype ourselves before ledger. And then we found out that blockchain was the right technology to use it actually a hyper ledger basu by then already from the beginning we are using hyper ledger basu but the front end wasn't the way we would want it to be and it didn't look like it is mobile banking. So we couldn't go to the users and say, okay we use blockchain, you can communicate with your supply chain parties and it is as easy as internet banking because it wasn't. And if it is not that easy, people in the supply chain who are working on their business every day they are not going to use it because it should fit directly in the processes. So that's really what we wanted to focus on with ledger and they are doing a really good job. I'm sharing my screen at the moment where everyone can see. This is the dashboard that we create. We have also a mobile application available but I will just show it to you in web. What we see here is an overview of the shipments and what we report is a date and unique ID from the shipment from location who is the one who is shipping the items to location who's the receiver, the type of items and we have different statuses. It could be new, it could be in transit. Let me see if I have them here. It could be completed or it could be in discussion, in dispute and then the action to take would be at me, the sender of the goods or at the receiver of the goods. So this is the overview of the shipments and when I'm opening one, let me see you could also see where it is. So when a shipment is in transit you can see at the status bar on top that it is in transit to your organization. You can see the departure location, the destination and you could see a third party who can also watch some specific items in this shipment. So what is really important in supply chain when shipping goods from A to B that the data is not out in the open because it is only between you and your supply chain partners. So the sender of the goods can decide to share the data with some third parties who are also part of the shipment and who need to know. So for example, when I'm renting a specific type of crate and I need to report when I'm shipping this crate from A to B, I can inform this party about the shipment directly. So he also has real-time overview of where his crates are and the more valuable data these lenders get these spoolers we call them the more they are able to reuse them again and again so they can improve their cycle time. If I'm using different type of items I could also inform another party about that specific item without seeing them for these third parties. So in this example, Coy and Co can only see CBL-7 which is a type of crate but if I want to inform Oliver about the pallet I am sending he could only see the pallet. So the data is always between the parties you like and not out in the open for everyone. These shipments are resulting in a balance. I have to move myself around all the time and this balance that is very important for the balance reconciliation. So you always look together in the same balance. For example, if I'm looking at CHEP I can see that my debit to CHEP is 140 pallets and with Coy and Co I can see that I have two other types of items and my debit is 362 and then I'm going to a different administration to Coy and Co. Of course he sees it the other way around with my organization. I can go to the different CHEP from Coy and Co I can go to his balance and share it with my administration and you can see this as a credit. So now you see the proof of that working together in the same data, never get discussions because we are always looking into the same. This is the most important function of what we do and we can save a lot of costs throughout the whole supply chain for every organization which is using a type of returnable transport item. So this could also be for C containers which are moving around the rules but also for these cable drums or for crates, everything you like. We have built some functions around it to make it even more easier. You can manage your relations and you can set up rules beforehand and most important you can connect these applications to your existing ERP or Rare House Management Systems. So you don't have to fill it in double every time again. If we come to current uses of RTIs, what we often see is that they are administrating the same data again and again and again in different platforms. So you can connect it through our platform with RTI dashboard and we can distribute this data to every other supply chain party you have. I can make a shipment from propane to bone. You can see here I'm locked in as propane and on this step I'm locked in as bone and you can see how quickly it is when the shipment arrived at bone and how everyone can see the same data within a shipment while the artists count which are not part of the shipment. I will make a new outbound shipment. I will ship it to bone and I will select some items and I do get this pop-up because I can also use unique identifier. So it doesn't have to be but if they are perceived from RFID tags, IOT devices or just the barcodes, you can scan the barcodes with the application on a mobile phone or your handhelds. I could also add a pallet to it. I can confirm. And I could add different attachments. This could be also a picture taken from the paper packaging slip but this could also be the digital packing slip more companies are using nowadays but it could also be a signature and it will also state a date and the time of arrival and the location. I will create the shipment. I will get a summary if I like it. I could also turn this off. And now the new shipment has been made. It's on top. I'm making a boo boo myself right now. It's this one. It's the second on the 20th, of course. Today is the 20th. And you can see that there is also a third party involved only for the CDL second grade and not for the Euro pallet. So I will show you later on what's very important about that. And I will mark it as in transit. This could also be done by the driver. I will go to Bone. So the other administration which will be the receiver of the shipment. He also has it directly. So it is very fast, real time. I'll do it again. It's this one. It's in transit, the second line and it stated 10 crates with a unique identifier and the Euro pallet. And Bone could accept this shipment but he could also say, okay, no, it wasn't 10, it was 70. So he changes it. He confirms and he saves the correction. And you can directly see that this is in dispute and me as the center could also see that this shipment is in dispute and that the action is on me. So for me, I will open it again and I can see what has been changed. And I can see that bone beefy added 60 type of crates. And because I see it real time, I can directly grab the phone or call with my client, call my supply chain partner and say, hey, okay, why is it not 10 and 70? Instead of doing it three months later on. Now we all remember it because it's fresh in our memories. But I could also see it in attachments once these are added and I could approve this correction because I agreed on it but I could also decline it again. When I go to Coyenco and I go to the shipments, it was this shipment and I was a third party and I can only see the crates because I was informed only for the crates and I don't see this Euro pallet. These privacy layers are very important in the whole supply chain business because we don't want to share the data with everyone. So the one who is sending the goods is always in charge with whom you want to share the data with and the data you share is always real time. So we are always in charge. Yeah, and this was also one of the first challenges we really had to tackle because if you do everything on chain, obviously everybody can see everything from each other and that was something we didn't want to. So we really had to come up with a smart solution in order to do so while preserving all the benefits of using a blockchain system being beneath it. Yeah, exactly. I see a lot of questions. I will stop sharing my screen and see if I can go to the questions. Thanks, Julie. We've been going back and forth with one of the participants. A question we did get a little bit earlier was about whether or not you could share more, I don't know if this is Olivier about the reference architecture just a little bit more about how it's built. Do you have like any sort of like model of that or maybe talk a little bit about how and why you use Hyperledge or Basu for this? You're on mute, Olivier. All right, rookie mistake here, sorry. No, so the reason that we used Hyperledge or Basu actually is to have the benefits of the Ethereum elements being able to build solid smart contracts, et cetera, being able to create tokens, these kind of things, but also to set it up in a very controllable way, improve authority network in this case to make sure it's A, scalable and B that it is under the governance of the various node owners that are known, that's also an important part, and that you're obviously also in control from any transaction cost because one of the things we kind of afford in this business, obviously, being a transport and logistics, which is always a very low margin business is having a huge fluctuation with regards to gas pricing for transactions. So regular Ethereum wouldn't go in this way. So that was one of the main reasons to do so. Another challenge besides the privacy part that I was talking about was also that the potential transaction volume can be huge in this system. So we have to design the system in such a way that the transactions per second will always be feasible to use. And that was why a lot of the public systems would fall off immediately. And we had to go with a hyper lecture version. I cannot share a reference architecture here, A, because it's not on my laptop directly. So, and I'm not one of the tech guys. And B, I should ask RTI if that's okay, because basically they're the owners of the system in this case, and we're the builders for them. So I couldn't do that. Thank you. One thing that I wanted to learn a little bit more about Milu when you were talking earlier about how you were using Excel a lot and even the paper slips. How did you make that transition from the paper slips to now using something that's fully online and digital? What was the process for that and how did that work for you? Yeah, so I first started implementing this ERP system in our business. So every movement towards the supermarket was already known. So it stated not only the product and the price but also these load carriers I was sending to each supermarket. So the data was in the ERP system, it is known but I didn't get it out of it in the right reports. So for example, if I am delivering my crates to you but I picked them up at Oliver's, my balance in the ERP system isn't right anymore. So I made a copy from that data into Excel and that was my basis. And from that I was filling in these test boards. But the data, when I was shipping it to the supermarkets, the shipment data, which is known is the right data. So if I can send it directly to RTI dashboard, I don't need to use Excel because RTI dashboard keeps track of the balance. Where did I pick it up? How much do I have left somewhere? So it is very easy to categorize Excel. But sometimes it is very hard for the biggest companies mainly because they could use five Excel or more in practice before they can send their invoice for these types of crates and pallets. Often there are deposit fees attached to it. So you need to send invoices and send credit notice as well. So we show them what our system can do. We often start very small. So not with all your supply chain partners but we start with 10. And then we start registering it. And once you have the trust in the platform and you see that the data is real-time and you don't have these discussions anymore, we can connect it via the API with your own system and then you can attach all your supply chain partners to it. Ideally, every partner in your supply chain is also working on this platform because then you have this interaction together and you can see, okay, this is confirmed, this isn't. But we all know that not your whole supply chain is going to change to this dashboard. So what we did is that you can create dummy locations. So you can create the supply chain partners yourself in the dashboard and you can send them an invite to join. Then they can register themselves if they like to but if they won't, they can register as well for free and they can see into the data, into the shipments. You are shipping with them, outbound and inbound but they can't actively register with you. They can have just this view option. But you can do your whole administration with this party. So for each supply chain partner you have, active or inactive, you can complete your whole administration regarding RTIs in our dashboard. So that makes it possible for not using Excel sheets anymore. If both parties are active, it makes it also possible for not using this paper packing slips anymore for RTIs. But when you are passing borders, you need to have, for example, this bill of lading or we call it also a CMF. We can't take that away because this is a legal document. But you see that this is becoming more digital. We are also integrating with an initiative transfollow who is having this digital CMR, this digital bill of lading. And you can attach this also to a shipment. So that's your paper, yeah, your digital packing slip in the attachments. So you don't need this paper slip anymore. So for both we have a solution. That's, thank you. That's such a thorough explanation. I really appreciate that. I think it's spurred a lot of questions, Milu. So we have a number of questions. I wanna see if I can invite some of our participants to come off mute. Marco, would you like to ask your question? Yes, of course. Can you hear me? Yes. Yes. Okay, perfect. Yeah, my question was on the identification of the pallets. Is that always done in the same way? So is there a code, for instance, a 2D code or a QR code being generated by your dashboard and then added to the pallet? That's one part of my question. And then the other one, if so, who is applying the code or the identification on the pallet? Is it done by the customers or do you have, do you provide the service? That's the question. We don't provide the service. But for example, if we are working with the cable drums, they are not foreseen from a unique identifier. It's just a type of drum and an amount we are shipping back and forth between companies. They do want to use a unique identifier and they are going to print QR codes on it, which will state that each type is unique and have its own number. And we can scan these numbers. So you can add the list with the numbers. And if you scan it on your mobile phone, the system is smart enough to recognize the product that this is the cable drum and then you can add it to your shipment. It's also done with existing barcodes, which are on crates. But we could also, yeah, we always compare it to different keyboard entries. If you have an IoT device and you put it on your pallet, then we can read in the data from these IoT devices. So it could also be done by RFID. And we are working together with different companies providing these items, what we... So for example, with euro pallets, they are not a unique identifier. So then you always have a type of item and you have an amount. And the important thing to mention with this type of items is you can choose in a shipment if you want to have this item stated on your balance. So I ship it to Olivier and I need to get it back from Olivier. Or I can say I will sell it to Olivier and I won't need to see it back, but my inventory will go down. Claire, yeah, thank you very much for your question. Yeah, yeah. The only thing I was just thinking about how do you get the systems in your dashboard? And I was thinking that it was always done by scanning through the app. So, but what you explained is that actually your app is smart enough to read different types of... Exactly. Yeah, so it doesn't matter if it's a barcode or a QR code, your app is picking up the data. And because I was triggered by your dashboard because I saw a QR code, if I remember well, in one of your screens. And I thought, okay, this is the marker. So this should be on the product and then your app will recognize it. But I'm not sure if that was the reason for the QR there. No, the QR, the ones you saw, that one is the one you can print or you can show it on your screen. For example, for the truck driver who is picking up the shipment, he can scan this QR code on his mobile phone by using our application and he will directly have the right shipment. He can put in the right data in. So he can say, okay, confirm I have this in my truck and it is in transit to the new customer. So the QR code you saw is for getting the right shipment right away, but you can also scan barcodes on current crates, for example, or drums, or role containers, or texts. Okay, and then as an owner or the one that has started the item, this person will link the barcode with the item in your system. So that's actually at the start of the, well, the onboarding of products, as you say. Yes, exactly. So if you are the owner of a product, you can create an item yourself. You can do a request to RTI blockchain and we will help you out, of course, by creating it. And then we could also add a list with different unique numbers and then you are in business. Super. If you ship your items, yeah. If you ship your items with unique numbers to your supply chain parties, you could also say, okay, after 30 days, I would like to receive it back. So it will count down the amount of days that your supply chain partner has that specific item in stock. And after these 30 days, it is one day due, two days due. And you will see it, but also your supply chain partner will see it because both look into the same data again. Okay, clear. So there is one last question that I have just for the new customers. Of course, what you explained is the link between the dashboard and existing ERP system. To build this link, is that part of your service or will it done by let your leopard? From our side, it's part of our business. Okay, clear. So you create a link between the customers who have an ERP system with your dashboard. Yes, but also at the partner side it should be something done in your own ERP system. That's your responsibility. And we can do our side and we can communicate together, of course, to get it done. Okay, thank you. Thank you, Marco, for your question. Jim Robinson, would you like to come on and ask your question? No, can you hear me okay? Yeah, we can hear you. Great, my question just to give you some perspective is from the aviation perspective. So in a supply chain world, there's sort of two elements that we're exploring in blockchain and that is linking a bag to a passenger through a digital ID and a verifiable tool. So do you envision getting down to sort of the items in creating unique debts for your supply chain? I don't hear you properly. Could you repeat it again? Hello, can you hear me okay? Yeah, sometimes I can, but sometimes you not really. Oh, okay, I apologize for that in advance. The question is, do you envision or is it possible to create verifiable credentials, so to speak, or for each of your items? In this case, the way we set it up at the moment for the RTI case, we don't use fair buy credential on item level. So we didn't do it in that way. I believe that we create basically fungible tokens kind of construction. So all items are equal and not uniquely identifiable. We do work on a lot of SSI solutions. So you should very well could create credentials specifically for a bag item, et cetera, but not using the RTI solutions at the moment. Thank you very much for that response. Thanks. And we do have a question that's coming in from our YouTube live audience. Papa DiGelli is asking, how are you hiding the fact that there was a transaction between A and B from other parties not participating in the transaction? Without going into too much technical detail because that's also a bit of the unique element that RTI has is that you use the right element in the blockchain part and that some of the parts are transaction hashes being stored on a blockchain part to make sure that certain transactions went through without revealing the detail of the individual transaction in this case. So the individual transaction can then be stored off-chain and hashes as proof of the transactions are being stored on-chain, thus the other parties cannot see each other's movements in this case. So that's basically what the solution comes down to. It's a bit more complicated than that but that's high level how that works. Okay. Does that answer the question? I think so, but it's a YouTube question. Feel free to post a follow-up question in the chat. Another question that we have here and feel free to ask more as it comes to you, but another one here was what are your clients saying about some, do you see a significant benefit? So what are the results that you're seeing from the solution? One of the results we see is that you don't have these differences anymore because you are working with together on real-time data. So when you have a dispute, everyone is on it. It's also because you agree with your supply chain parties to work in a new system. So you are, it's a new way of working and it's on top of mind that you can use a lot of time and money by not registering these items. So we make people aware of how much money you can lose and by registering it, you won't. You can always see where they are and from who you can have them in return. But not having these balance differences is saving daily work from people on the workflow. So we also have this calculator app. I will write it down in the chat, this link. And then you can fill in your own data regarding your organization and you can see what you can save on not having these balance settlements anymore. I could also share my screen and quickly go to it and it's only on that part of the supply chain what we are saving. One moment, I will go to it. And I will share my screen again. And actually, besides just the things you're gonna show right now and the benefits directly for the customers, the fact that you guys are growing so fast that's proof of putting for the market. You see that everybody's very really enthusiastic about the solution. And yeah. That's true. The case with the cable drums, the price that increased only this year 13 times for these wooden cable drums. And all the time they deliver their cables to the customers and they get the drum as the service but they don't get this drum back. They will just end up in the bin instead of being reused. So when you start adding deposit money fee on it we will all have huge amount of invoices and sending money back and forward regarding to these items getting back. But if you ship them and you make people aware that you need to send it back and they can be reused again and again you will save a lot of money throughout the whole supply chain, of course. So I am at this calculator and these are only your saving for having this balance difference together. So say you send out a million items a year this is minimum for people working, organizations working with crates for example your fruit and vegetables go each day again and again to the supermarkets and need to be returned as well. And they go out throughout the world of course and you have 250 relations. And the average time in hours for balance recognition per customer at a time the estimation for each customer will be around 16 hours because you need to have all your paper packaging slips which are currently used. You have your Excel sheets and you have your orders and you will have these marker steps you know these yellow ones and you will do it but also your supply chain partner will do it and we will compare these lists together and then you are going to your management and say okay this is the outcome these are the sheets he will go over it again and he will go to the director and someone needs to do something with it. So 16 hours is minimal but of course you can fill it in yourself. Say 25 an hour, 25 euros for these employees and you do it only once a year. So this is already what you are saving only on not having these balance settlements anymore. So everyone can go to this link and apply these numbers for your organization and you can see what the uncontrolled cost of balance settlements are within your organization and you can see what it costs by using our dashboard. So this is one of the savings we can show it to you. That's really amazing. That's very tangible. Yeah it is and that's what we are trying to do we try to make things tangible and see that it is improving your business but the problem with returnable transport items is that it is not your core business you want to focus on your products if you are selling fish you want to sell fish if you are selling cables you want to sell the cables and people forget that you need a load carrier to ship your goods and if you're not getting it back you can't deliver your fruit and vegetables to the customer to the supermarket for example. So it is very important to know where your returnable transport items are that you get them back in time and that you can reuse it. For the poolers, the ones who are renting these items it is also very important to know where these items end up in the chain so they can collect it earlier and they could also bring it to the first party in the chain to reuse it again. And what we now have is all these different administration each organization on its own and some is reporting the data the other one is also reporting data but is different and it comes together and we never have this match so that's what we do we connect this whole supply chain together. Yeah, that's really, really fascinating and what sort of reaction have you seen from your customers so far? Different reactions. We also, I like this business case it's with all volunteers so when we have fruit and vegetables and won't be selling stores anymore it goes for the people who need it and all volunteers working there 70 plus and they said to us but we can't work with an application we can't work with a mobile application we are not digitalized it's not something for us so we said, do you use mobile banking? And in Holland a lot of people are used to mobile banking so they said, yeah, well, yes sometimes I will send some money to my daughter or granddaughter so I can use mobile banking and we said, okay, you can download our application on your own mobile phone, on your smartphone and it is as easy as it is so the goods are coming in you check it if the amount is right and you confirm it and your work is done and they were so happy by using it each day again because they do get the food for free but they do have to pay the crates that are unneeded and yeah an organization like that can't lose the money because that's actually needed for the people of course so even 70 plus can work with it we also get confirmation from customers I really, it's really easy to use it and I mean it so when we ask for a reference they said and I mean it behind it so that's very good for us as well and I think also important that everyone who started with it as a pilot last year where we are still in a pilot phase is still a customer right now Right, so I mean a lot of people in where these shipments are they don't wanna be dealing with a complicated system on a computer or a dashboard or they don't have that set up being able to do it on the mobile phone seems to be really key Yes and that is most of the time at the beginning of the chain and at the end of the chain because in between you have this lot of production organizations they are used to work with applications they do have the data already in their systems we can connect it by an API and distribute it to the right parties so that's why we are able to help the whole supply chain to work together and not just the part it's not only for the big companies it's also for these very small ones Yeah, well are there any other questions from the attendees? Feel free to post in the chat or raise your hand and I can bring you on here to ask your question live I do see something on our YouTube page are there future plans to add even more features to the application? Yes, we do have a roadmap but an important feature is to also be able to have deposit fee directly changed from one party to another so to work with digital money of course we could already start with it and we are ready for it but we see that the market isn't so the first step is to make people aware that they can use a system like RTI blockchain and they can get rid of their Excel sheets we are going to trust each other because we work in the same data we can't do something without knowing letting it know to your other supply chain party and when we trust each other we could also start working with a coin so you could also do deposit money fee directly or even better it might be that we don't need deposit fee in some cases in the supply chain so we can eliminate a bit of the deposit fees which are being shipped forward and backward all the time and I do have an example because currently we are working with the user it's also a supermarket chain they have a turnover of 400 million euros but the deposit fee they are using is 1.3 billion so that's a lot on these items it's much more than the goods which are in yeah and people really forget that the load carriers are a lot of value yeah thank you any other questions for Milo or for Olivier? we just got one coming in from the YouTube audience we have about quite a few people in the YouTube audience how does sovereign identity as a feature sound to you? I guess they're asking does it is incorporating sovereign identity part of a future plan or future feature? again incorporating self-serving identity into RTI well at least at this point in time it's interesting to explore obviously but I don't think it has an added value for the items that we are using RTI blockchain for the elements that Jim were referring to basically being unique items then credentials is much more useful because then it relates to a specific item and in the case of RTI if it's crate A or B as long as it is the same type of crate it doesn't matter which one returns et cetera you don't need to have the true unique identifier but in the case of a suitcase in the flight world then it's a different story obviously so I would love to explore the SSI combination into the RTI solution but given the market that they're in right now I don't see a direct added value of creating individual credentials for every single item in this case unless you start working with really high expensive items and then it could be very interesting yeah we do have an interesting case regarding this with cultural objects so currently we are looking in a proof of concept phase that we add different type of items to our platform so now we do have these transport items but also these cultural objects who are moving from one expo to the other and then this looks like this self-suffering identity because each unique object has its own ID and its own owner so we do have a bit of an overlap on this and in that case it really makes sense because the RTI is related one on one to this specific object and you can't replace it with a different one so then you have to have a unique identifier but for a euro palette or a crate that is used in the fish industry then it doesn't matter if it's one crate or another but for an art object yeah that it's a different story yeah true yeah um okay a quick question here from Andri here in how does the front end how's the front end being served I think is it via peer-to-peer IPFS it is a good question and I really don't have to answer it immediately so I'm more than happy to figure it out for you so um yeah for any questions that don't get answered feel free to reach out to us and we can put you in touch with Ledger Leopard and they could answer that later on Jim you're raising your hand I'll let you be the last question here Jim did you want to come off mute and ask your question maybe you just raise your hand yes can you hear me now yes okay okay quick question or an observation but are these patents and crates are these dead heading back to their owners and is there a logistic solution to sort of optimize and let's say reduce carbon footprint yes it is it depends on the type of craze you are renting and the model that it's behind it so in some use cases I am shipping to oliver and I have to pick them up at the same location at oliver's but if they are in the same pool so the same type of items and the pool provider is open to it I could maybe perhaps pick them up at Karen's because she is my neighbor so I can reduce my carbon footprint significantly but therefore the end location needs to share the data with the pooler so they do have valuable data where the items are end up and they can be picked up most efficiently if we are open to share this data real time with the pool providers everyone in the chain can help by reducing the footprint of collecting the items with a full truck load that's always better of course when have it half full half empty sometimes it is the case that if I am a pool I'm renting it and I'm shipping it to oliver I report it but I have still the right to collect it at my neighbor because I have the right to have these amount of total items I have rent available so that's already quite efficient but also you see a lot of one-way pellets or one-way items if we can make it returnable so you start using returnable items and you start using a platform to register these items on you can indeed increase or decrease your footprint again because you're not using paper, carbon, one-way pellets etc. so there is a lot to do for organizations to help with thank you so much Milo, thank you Gem for your question and we're going to have to wrap it up here we are out of time I just have a couple things I want to say here at the end are you seeing my slides? yes hold on I'm not seeing my slides let me go to my own slide there we go so we're going to wrap up today's discussion with Ledger Lepper thank you so much to Milo and to Olivier we do have more of these sessions coming up the next one will be with our Consensus Hyperlegion Ethereum series so we already had one on October 14th you can find the recording for that on our events page and our YouTube as well the next one in that series is on November 3rd and then on November 16th and then in between those two we have Splunk that will be talking about Hyperlegio Fabric Security you can sign up for all of these events on hyperlegio.org slash events so please go to that page and we'll see you at the next one you may have seen in the chat I was posting some YouTube videos for someone who's asking questions about where you can find videos we had our global forum earlier this year all of that was recorded it's all on our YouTube page and all our webinars are on our YouTube page as well so there's a wealth of videos that you can find on all topics and use cases and projects and technologies at Hyperlegio we encourage you to get involved join our community by attending these sessions check out our wiki to dive more into the technical aspects of each project join our special interest groups there's many ways in which you can get involved at Hyperlegio and thank you finally for watching we appreciate you joining us here today we'll see you next time thank you as well thank you Karen thank you all wonderful have a wonderful day