 Okay, so we want to talk a little bit about a very important legal case that I think everyone here should be concerned about and The legal case is officially titled love versus the United States Because it's about a British computer scientist an occupier activist called Laurie Love who you did see in the screen But now it's gone. There you go who So Jake and I have been friends of Laurie for quite a while and at the moment He's facing some very serious allegations from the United States where the FBI is trying to extradite him to face charges under the computer Under the computer for Donnie Buess act where he could potentially be facing up to 99 years in jail He's being accused of essentially taking part in a series of online protests called operation last resort that followed the persecution and death of Irons warts where in The website of the United States sentencing commission was hacked and replaced with a homepage That allowed visitors to play a game where they could control a missile-enabled nyan cat that allowed them to shoot chunks of text of the page and So so Laurie was a longtime friend of iron and in fact I first met Laurie in an IRC channel set up by iron 15 years ago Laurie is currently being pursued by the you so Laurie is currently being pursued by the US criminal justice system for effectively protesting abuses of the same system and There's protesters in three separate US Court districts accusing him of hacking into various governmental agencies including NASA the US Army the Federal Reserve and also the environmental protection agency and As a result of all of this Laurie was arrested in October 2013 by the national crime agency, which is like the UK's equivalent to the FBI and Nine months after that his police bail was allowed to expire and he wasn't charged with anything Because the national crime agency couldn't find any evidence of what the FBI was accusing him of and of course The FBI wasn't too happy about this because they were quite keen to first charges. So the FBI put in an Extrusion request and not just one extradition requests But three separate extradition requests from three separate districts and this is actually just one of the ways that The FBI can abuse the justice system in order to coerce defendants to enter a guilty plea even if they're not even if they're innocent So Laurie's case actually has a pretty interesting political significance here because his case is essentially a deja vu of Another case that happened ten years ago ten years ago The FBI also tried to extract another man called Gary McKinnon. He was accused of hacking NASA so what happened to Gary he fought an extradition battle for ten years and This raised a lot of interesting political questions in Parliament because it revealed that the UK US Extrusion treat extradition treaty was quite unbalanced as in it's very one-sided to the US It's much easier for a British for the US to extract a US for the US to extract a UK person Then it is for the UK to extract a US person and the reason for that is because For the US to put an extradition request they don't even have to show any evidence or even present the case which is pretty insane because you'd think that's the basic right to a Fair trial includes the ability for a defendant to be able to view the case against them so that they can formulate a defense and The British Parliament also agreed that this was unfair. So they campaigned on behalf of Gary to change the law and Eventually Theresa May which was the home secretary at the time locked Gary's extradition On the basis that it would be a human rights violation because Gary suffered had a long undocumented history of depression and anxiety Through his whole life, and he was also diagnosed with asperges So sending him to a US prison instead of UK prison would have been inhumane because essentially it would have Put him away from his family and the support system that essentially sustained them and like Gary Laurie also has a long undocumented history of depression and is also diagnosed with aspergers So this case really is a deja vu of a case that happened 10 years ago So after Gary's case the law changed and Theresa May introduced a new piece of legislation called the forum bar And the forum bar was designed to prevent cases like Gary's from happening ever again like it is now and it created It essentially allowed the courts to block an extradition on the basis that The case can be heard in the UK and doesn't have to be heard in the US Which is the case as Jake will be talking about in a while because we We were persecuted in the UK even though we were accused of hacking into a whole bunch of stuff in the US So there's no reason why Laurie can't be tried in the UK But unfortunately a few years ago the magistrates court in the UK actually approved Laurie's expedition, but it's not over because they're still and they'll still be appeals and This will at least go on for another two years and the reason why They were able to accept it in this case because after the forum bar was introduced the ability for the home secretary to Block an extradition on human rights bases was transferred to the courts instead of the home secretary So the home secretary no longer has the power to do what she did in Gary's case Now the interesting thing about this case is that the judge in the case actually accepted that Laurie presents as in her own words a severe substantial and high risk of suicide But she didn't she didn't accept that the US prison systems don't have adequate healthcare to deal with this Which is ridiculous because the US prison systems are notorious worldwide for the way that they treat people with mental health issues So just as an example Chelsea Manning was in the news a few months ago for her suicide attempt And what did the prison do did they give her care? No, instead they disciplined her and sentenced her to solitary confinement because she committed she attempted suicide In the UK the exact opposite would happen if you had mental health issues You would be given more freedoms in your cell and an access to care rather than simply being locked away in solitary confinement Now there's been a lot of campaigning work done for Laurie by Naomi and the courage Foundation Which has been doing some really incredible work and thanks to the work We have 114 members of parliament on our side who have co-signed a letter to Barack Obama requesting him to Reconsider Laurie's extradition Also, Laurie's case was brought up in Parliament during Prime Minister's question time Which is a pretty great achievement and I'm going to play the video now A young man with a Sperger syndrome awaits extradition to the United States facing charges of Computer hacking and is then likely to kill himself. It sounds familiar He's not of course Gary McKinnon who was saved by the Prime Minister But lorry love who faces in effect a death sentence So when the Prime Minister introduced the foreign bar to in her words provide greater safeguards for individuals Surely she expects it to protect the vulnerable like Gary McKinnon like lorry love The honorable gentleman my honorable friend obviously Campaigned long and hard for Gary McKinnon and obviously I took that decision because at that time it was a decision for the Home secretary to decide whether there was a human rights case for an individual not to be extradited We subsequently changed the legal position on that so this is now a matter for the courts There are certain parameters that the courts look at in terms of the extradition decision And that is then passed to the home secretary But it is for the courts to determine the human rights aspects of of any case that comes forward It was right I think to introduce the Form bar to make sure that there was that challenge for cases here in the United Kingdom as to whether they should be held Here in the United Kingdom, but the legal process is very clear and the home secretary is part of that legal process So yeah, I mean I mean that's pretty much an unanswer, but at least it was bought up Now the reason why I'm personally so invested in this case well for a start I believe that it's really important for our community to have solidarity with technologies and activists who are facing injustices, but also Five years ago, there was a lot less supports Organisations supporting whistleblowers and hackers if you are charged with the computer for the abuse act There weren't that many places that you could turn to to get support and there's this case that there's one case That's really close to my heart that I want everyone to know about because it's been completely forgotten And I think we've completely failed this person so in 2012 an AT&T employee called Lance Moore Committed suicide after he was charged by the FBI for leaking some documents that he had access to from AT&T and he leaked these documents via anonymous Now despite the fact that there was no hacking involved and he was leaking information that he had access to the FBI charging for hacking AT&T Which sets a pretty bad precedent for whistleblowers leaking information that they already had access to now at that time There's a solidarity community for hackers and whistleblowers was a lot smaller The courage foundation didn't exist and there wasn't really like a did no one reached out to him And there was no like natural place for him to reach out to you But what really gets me about this case is that in hindsight he would actually eventually not have been have been found not guilty because the FBI also persecuted one other person weave for hacking AT&T and He was eventually acquitted in 2014 because the FBI didn't have a case against it because of technicalities Now the exact same thing probably would have happened to Lance because the details of the case are very similar But sadly he never lived to be able to see this And sadly Lance Moore was completely forgotten and there's been no mentions or and no news articles about him whatsoever And that's why I think it's really important for us to build a loud and visible So the solidarity movement for hackers and whistleblowers so that if anyone finds themselves in trouble in the future They will always know that they will have someone that to look out for them I'm going to hand over to Naomi from the courage foundation. He's going to talk a little bit about the importance of lawyers case Thank you for that You're normally asked to care about hacker prosecution cases because here is Someone who's really great that a really horrible thing is happening to and we it's right and proper that we should care when horrible Things are happening to great people Larry is a great person and everybody who uses encryption in the United Kingdom owes him a debt of gratitude for defeating a national crime agency in court earlier this year The NCA were putting forward the novel legal theory that any effectively No one had a right to property that law enforcement could not then read Which thanks to Larry was turned was turned back and so we avoided a Disaster there victories for privacy rights are vanishingly rare in the UK and that was an important one Solidarity is an unambiguously good thing and Larry definitely deserves your solidarity, but this case is also more important than you think I want to explain why everybody in this room should care about Larry's case Not just because it's the right thing to do and you should be generous, but because of your out of your self-interest as well There are several grand narratives in the hacker community that come up again and again at Congress One of those which I think we've heard a lot about in recent years and probably with misplaced optimism My opinion is of the hacking communities battle with surveillance and for prison privacy rights and I'm sure a lot of us remember Rob Kong writes talk about a decade ago when he said that we lost the war meaning the war on mass surveillance And I think we're all far too familiar with another war And that is the war on hackers and hacking by law enforcement That is a war the creative approach to and use of systems is marginalized and pathologized as criminal by governments And law enforcement agencies and the net word hacker itself is used to mean something cruel and dangerous It's a war that disproportionately affects the new the neurodivergent So it's a war not just on what people do and not just don't want people think but also how they think I'm afraid to say that I think we're at risk of losing that war to and Larry's case is absolutely pivotal to that If we don't manage to keep Larry in the United Kingdom and a transnational Extradition regime is established that means that all hackers well anyone who does anything interesting with computers It's potentially subject to the laws and penalties of the worst legal regime of the lot regardless of where they live And that legal regime is of course the United States We all know how bad the criminal justice system is in we all know that the criminal justice system in the United States is bad Maybe we forget sometimes just how bad it is The United States has the highest per capita prison prison population in the world and Tonight tens of thousands probably hundreds of thousands of people are spending that you know their time in solitary confinement Over 90% of defendants in the United States are coerced into pleading guilty with a threat of ridiculous sentences I'm not I wonder sometimes how we can talk about fair trials when the reality is that vanishingly small number of people ever receive a trial at all Larry is almost uniquely facing charges in three separate US court districts Which amount to a potential sentence of some 99 years? That's 99 years for alleged acts of political speech that pertain to the actions of US prosecutors So US prosecutors are now trying to absolutely crush Larry love It's not subtle The situation in the United States is not going away for Larry or for anyone I find it kind of difficult to imagine a moment which have been more propitious for reform of the computer fraud and abuse act than Aaron Swartz's death and although the shockwaves are heard were heard across the world and Representations were made in Congress nothing happened I think we should write off legal reform in the United States as a possibility in the near term The CFFA as many of us know gives prosecutors extremely wide discretion US prosecutors collect hackerskins as trophies and that's because they're career-making prosecutions And if we do allow transnational jurisdictions in these kind of cases to become a regular thing Everybody here is potentially Extradited to the US on the whim of an American prosecutor who wants to build their career and risks no consequences for making allegations that don't stack up Remember that the US does not have to present any evidence to extract Larry The entire court proceeding in Larry's extradition case is taking place on the basis of allegations only no evidence is ever presented This is a whim based justice system And even if you thought a whim based justice system was just about okay under a philosopher king like Barack Obama Although if you do think that we might have to have words later How do you think that's going to work under Donald Trump's Department of Justice? I'll just leave that one hanging for a second And as Mustafa explained we've had a close escape with this kind of thing before Gary McKinnon was the was the test case for the bilateral extradition treaty between the UK and the US and that concluded computer crimes Just because the US was unhappy about how you how the UK had handled a couple of hacker prosecutions in the 1990s. That's all it is So after securing the law US prosecutors tried to establish the precedent with Gary They failed but only just and it took a 10-year battle of you know Almost unparalleled for a lot of ferocity to stop it a Subsequent change in the law which I am going to insist on calling to reason maids for and bar was supposed to prevent cases like this ever happening again And it forms the immediate context of Larry loves legal defense in the United Kingdom But in September at Westminster Magistrates Court, it fell at the first hurdle We're now waiting to hear whether an appeal will be allowed to go ahead And if it is we can expect that to happen towards the middle of next year We really need to keep Larry in the UK Because the precedent of his extradition will not easily be turned back as Brexit Britain is about to find out transnational legal regimes are very hard to turn back once established a new transnational regime about of America's global Jurisdiction over the internet and the regime of criminal law as it pertains the hackers is going to be similarly difficult to extricate ourselves from if it's allowed to be built and That is why this case is more important than you think and its outcome has the potential to affect Everybody in this room and we'll have far-reaching implications which you are going to find it very difficult to reverse in the future So I'm calling on everybody here and everybody who's watching on the live stream to please if not out of solidarity with Larry Who incidentally is a wonderful person who you should feel solidarity with and he deserves your support If not out of solidarity with Larry then please just think of yourself and your comrades in your community And please help us save Larry because if we don't save Larry, we will not be able to save ourselves Thank you, and I'll hand over to Jake now This is what I'm going to speak just very briefly before we get Larry on himself a little bit about extradition And then a sort of pretentious statement about how great Larry is So Mr.. The first time mr. Fenn I met in real life Was in the dock of court Having both been arrested for involvement in anonymous and lol sec and the only reason we're able to sit here today Next to each other is we weren't extradited to the United States even though at one point there was talk of it We were prosecuted sentenced in the UK Mr.. Received a two-year suspended prison sentence. I received a two-year prison sentence though if extradition had been sought and It had been successful. I'm sure we'd still be unable to do the things we do today We'd be locked in a very tiny cell but now we're Functional members of society paying taxes and the like And Larry should be able to have the same the opportunity to be to be to be tried in the country in which he lives in which He was arrested in what his loved one lives so Said pretentious statement about Larry So I do I vividly remember the first time I met Larry love 2014 It was in the middle of the busy London Kings Cross train station and he introduced himself by way of wheeling Into the back of my legs with a giant boombox trolley system that was blasting a reggae jungle playlist We were meeting as a group of security researchers and ex-hackers Some of us knew each other online and we were meeting for the first time in the real world for the previous 12 months between 2013 and 2014 I had been legally banned from speaking to anyone in anonymous Which was difficult to moderate on the basis that everyone and no one is anonymous apparently So that was a fun year But it was fascinating and terrifying prospect then to meet people in the real world That had that we had just known online Larry Being there he provided an enthusiasm and an energy that and which was immediately contagious and I learned that he has the look and demeanor of someone who's always thinking of the well-being and happiness of others around him and simultaneously you may have caught a glimpse of it in the live stream he has this sort of subtle glimmer that suggests he's in on a very funny joke that no one else can ever hope to conceive of but He can also consume pints of beer at a staggeringly impressive rate. You may have seen some of that going down in this stream So we the last time I met Larry The second is the second time so I was at this conference two years ago 31 C3 And if you talk to him even briefly, I'm sure you'll remember him in the conversation He has the ability to effortlessly span so many different genres of information security weaving he weaves inconceivably fascinating politics philosophy comedy and complex technical concept into these beautifully crafted and highly memorable Advice and ideas and he collaborated with so many people here two years ago that I thought there was there wasn't one But ten larries just off in all parts of the center dispensing wisdom to everyone absolutely remarkable Remarkable person and really brought a sense of joy here And that joy spreading continued and around 3 a.m. When he and I and must have earned several others got lost on the streets of Hamburg trying to find our way back to our hostel And he inspired us endlessly throughout our stay and it's it's it's depressing to There's such an absurd situation Means he can't be here today With us And what I've what I've learned since then since hanging out with Larry and being around him in so many different types of situation from You know being completely out of our minds at festivals To sitting down with members of the UK government trying to convince them that our extradition relationship with the US is flawed and corrupt And you heard from most of his video there to watching Larry sit in a court dock as As prosecutors berated him Sitting making origami beautiful origami as a coping mechanism. I've learned through all of this that Larry is He is Larry he He has a There we go. This is not printed correctly. It's printed remote. This is actually printed backwards How is how words printed backwards mustafo is this you I started reading the next sentence I began reading and it's literally backwards. I don't have to read it in reverse um I've been my paper's been hacked. Oh No That's okay Well done. Whoever hacked my paper. No, it's fine. It looks fine. That's fine. That bit's fine. Yeah, just be Yeah, just read that bit Well, it's fine as well Yeah, it's okay. Look look Larry is um, let's just read it backwards. Um, Larry is open honest compassionate He's uh, he's capable of adapting and making the best of any situation He always always adds value to any project idea or social dynamic And you know, it's it's absurd to remove that talent from society and it's meaningless. It's completely illogical Someone in power needs to just make the extradition request go away and give him a job basically because People like Larry have helped to secure things that most people would be shocked to learn were even vulnerable to begin with And he is right now this day Helping to make the digital world a safer place for everyone and there's a real irony to it then Locking Larry away Genuinely makes it easier for the critical infrastructure of the uk and other countries to be compromised And it's ridiculous to think that any benefit can come from shipping someone away to a dark room in another country far from their loved ones Mustapha and I Were dragged through the legal system for hacking As I say, we now contribute to society to society in our own ways Having been dealt with in the uk our own country um No extradition was formally thought for us Nor has it for countless other uk hackers and only every single one But it has been for Larry and that seems to come from a place of vengeance more than justice There are and there are so many people that should be here right now Jeremy Hammond, Chelsea Manning Edward Snowden, Barrett Brown, Larry Love of course and many others and these remarkable fiercely intelligent people don't deserve to be crowned into some tiny prison cell for years or barred from entering or leaving their own countries And they shouldn't even be here via some dodgy video link But they should be physically here at the conference listening to talks Dancing in the disco lounge till 4 a.m and sitting with friends and colleagues enjoying a A nice cool crisp club maté So I'd like to on that note To raise a club maté To those people and others around the world that are facing the unjust wrath wrath of the u.s. Government and its corrupt overreaching intelligence agencies and thank them for being brave And fighting and know that we'll keep fighting for them. Thank you and now we'll go to Larry We'll hand over to Larry. All right, Larry How much I need to Okay, so I was just hearing the feedback of myself asking if you could hear me 20 seconds ago that's fine So, um, there's not a huge amount. I really need to add to that It was really well explained by Mustafa And Jake and know me who have been fantastic in their support and especially know me and the courage foundation without you I probably would have gone crazy a while ago so Sorry, there's just a bit So what is this about, um Obviously from for my friends and family and loved ones. They don't want to see me Take to a country that I've never been to be locked up probably for the rest of my life If I don't die tragically of violence at my own hand or the hands of somebody else, which Probably happens to a lot of people For the u.s. It's about making an example I have part of that kind of long-term execution of hackers information transparency activists subversives of all kind, but especially online I Like not to be an example. I think there's better things to Contrary to the world study electrical engineering I do working in cryptography information security um, I I take an interest in politics taken interest in civilization, so I think for the next 200 years and We're lucky a thousand years or indefinitely into the future And there's a lot that needs to be done. This is not something that we can take for granted anymore um part of having a reasonable assurance in Continuing to thrive as a civilization is maintaining A few important things. Um, one of those is the internet as a free hemorrhagic resource. It's available to all for the mutual betterment and kind without being dominated by um, the interests of nation states over one another or being dominated by Corporate profit-making interests to the exclusion of communication education and cultural development Another thing that we need to ensure is due process and due process is What allows us to be that we can go about what we're doing with freedom and liberty to fight against injustice or just to enjoy the privacy of our own lives Without powerful parties being able to step in because they don't like us for some reason and impose upon our liberty for instance in my case, um As I would express, they keep that meat and take me to be locked away in torture without evidence being shown so The few things that people would like to be able to expect is part of due process. That's when they're arrested that um After their arrest they they'll be charged with the crimes from which they were suspected and if not, they They'd be allowed to to go back about their business and have their property returned In my case, I wasn't charged and I'm still slightly out through the courts to return my property and as you heard the numerous efforts were made to compel me to um pass words and cryptographic information despite the entire since then the extradition request came as an obvious principle of jurisprudence that that was by the staffer the the US has no obligation to make a premium of actually case because of the the one-sided extradition treaty that was arranged between Tony Blair and George Bush who you may remember from other things that haven't gone so well and it's very concerning in the abstracts not just because it's my life in the abstracts now given who is going to be running the the administration of the US government for the next four years that somebody can be plucked from this country without a shred of evidence without being able to see um the evidence without being able to contest it only on the the bases of hypothetical allegations and and that there is no the seems to be so far in the court process no concern about the other issue of having bail um because I would be considered a flight risk because they had to keep that in the first place by the UK and in other prosecutions in the state of your family continue your life and have access to the information that you need to formulate an offense so in terms of just having um any kind of justice was mentioned at the 19 out of 20 people never had a trial because they would be made an offer the bargain that's much more attractive than the alternative which is having the charges stacked so that they can in my case make 99 years which you know would be the rest of my life so it's important um that we win this case on appeal that as much pressure is brought to bear as possible so that these systemic issues can be really looked at hopefully through the refusal of the section is the precedent can be set you can't just put people up that you don't like without having to at least make a case and maybe something to consideration can be made to the disproportionality of sentences under the cfa and towards the non-violent offenses um and they only said that we shouldn't be too optimistic about legal and foreign eos in the immediate future but that we should actually take for it and so if this exhibition is refused because of the systemic problems we coercively bargaining with with the sentencing regime the the mandatory sentencing guidelines which allows it the charges to stack up in such a way then it gives some ammunition to the people that in the in the distant future if we get out if we manage to actually um then things will eventually have to be on myself back in see if you've heard anything I've said but I really thank people for taking interest in the case I I know that I won't go to the United States simply because I surrendered the sovereignty over my own life or my autonomy of will however the people that trying to take me there have theoretically the minimum right to use violence which I would probably not race to that level and so my my options for not surrendering that sovereignty may be covered and I can't actually discuss them because that would be another excuse for them to lock me up but there will be no no execution and afterwards will be some resolution of the issues of the case and for that to happen is for us to we need to go through the process rather than Okay, let's open it up to Q and A's We have about eight microphones in the room and we also have a lovely signal angel that will be taking questions from the internet So please if you have any questions, Laurie, don't be shy get up to the microphones and speak loud and clear Otherwise, do you have anything from the panel that you want to say in response to what Laura was just saying? microphone number three, please it's more like not a question but a comment I mean I I I kind of understand a louder situation because I both have asparagus and have had issues with the law but I I am not yet I want to be the US government luckily but maybe it will change if we if I do some things and we should cover it just like this so Thank you We have a question from microphone number four and please mostly questions and not so much comments One comment one comment though. It seems that the internet in the UK is still the way it has always been So Jake Could you could you possibly make a few comments? About resemblances that what can be applied from your case in Laurie's case? I mean, I think it would be very interesting for everybody to know your story as to how much time did you actually do? Why and what from that should Laurie be actually kept in the UK? What what from your story can be applied to his case if you know god help is going to stay there? Yeah, sure. So a very brief timeline of arrest through to release most of an hour both arrested in 2011 They were we were both then banned from the internet for two years as part of police bail very interesting times 2013 we were and also we were on home detention with a big electronic tag around our ankles 2013 we were sentenced Southern Crown Court I received a two-year prison sentence though of the amount of time spent on electronic tag The way we work in the UK is we do half of the time in prison and half of the time on probation Mathematically speaking because of two years on tag. I served maybe six or six or seven weeks in a prison And mr. Received a suspended sentence. We then both did a year of probation and that year I was banned from speaking to anyone from anonymous currently we're both still under An order called a serious crime prevention order, which means we can't encrypt our files or delete Internet history and a bunch of other little things So when I came to this school wealth is when we both came to this conference We had to declare that we were getting a flight out and a flight back And that will be enforced until 2018 That all put together sounds pretty ridiculous as a as a case But it's far saner than anything that would occur if we were sent to the states It'd be far simpler if we were sent to the states We'd just be put in a cell for a very very long time and it's complicated in the uk It's messy, but our parole system is reasonable our legal system is reasonable and In terms of similarities with alleged crimes We were alleged to have broken into us government computers as well And it it us and about 20 other cases were dealt with successfully here and in a number of ways. There's so much Paperwork out there now for judges and prosecutors to make informed decisions that it clearly works better for hackers to be dealt with in their own country Rather than be sent to a jurisdiction that puts them away for decades at a time So there's similarities to draw on at all levels and it's ridiculous that and they've chosen to take this as a say vengeful approach So the targets that we were Rehacked were pretty much all in the u.s And yes, we were still tried in the uk because the evidence was presented in the uk court So I see absolutely no reason why you why lorry can't be tried in the uk And why the evidence can't be seen in the uk Even most of the evidence arcades Actually came from the u.s Mostly from hector monsignor who was a FBI informant the uk our uk police officers Actually hopped on a plane to the u.s and brought evidence back in a cd rom So I don't see why lorry has to be extradited when all the evidence can be transferred to the uk That's a big question in this case about whether there has been a good faith attempt to prosecute lau in the uk That's a big question which still has to be tackled in uk and hopefully We'll get a bit closer towards doing that before the appeal happens. Um, it's probably worth noting that As you've heard lau is Maximum potential sentence in the united states is 99 years The equivalent if you were prosecuted in uk is a maximum of about two and a half years of which no one I've spoken to thinks you would actually serve that maximum so the differential is pretty shocking We have one question from the internet Actually, there are a couple of questions The first one is what are some of the most effective things that hackers can do to resist the mistreatment of hackers as activists my question, um, so Rating awareness of these cases is incredibly important in particular cases like lauries Whether it is a very knotty political national political issue at play then getting in touch with your elected representatives Is very useful. Um in lauries case Actually, two things we could do with in lauries case We could do with more you know more influential people coming forward and explaining, you know Exactly why extraditing lau would be an astonishingly bad idea Um, everybody in this audience probably knows at least know somebody who knows somebody who would be useful to speak out about That so get talking to people, you know, the other one is that um As was mentioned right at the beginning in the introduction lau is not just a british citizen He also holds finnish citizenship and we could do with a bit of pressure in finland to get the finnish government To um say something publicly About lauries case probably only would take a little push in my opinion so that those are some concrete things that can happen Oh, and one thing I should mention Um, we also have a defense fund for lauries should god forbid he had done for the united states The costs are going to get very serious very quickly So, um, if you go to free laury.com slash donate and um send some money would be very appreciated We have a question from microphone number one Uh I know you said no more comments, but I have I have a comment um I'm noah swartz. I'm erin swartz's brother who was mentioned a lot during this talk Uh, and one of the things that happened during erin's prosecution Was that the prosecutor steve hyman tried very hard to prevent Anyone from raising awareness about erin's case or erin getting any sort of support from People like us the hacker community or any other people that knew him And then after you know He died a lot of people said, you know, like why didn't we do anything? Why didn't people stand up for erin when we had the chance? Uh, so here you go. You have the chance now To support laury Don't waste it Everything you've done We'll take one more question from the internet We got laury back on the screen now Apparently he's distracting him to be put on the screen is what they said Let's keep him on the screen. It doesn't matter. This is this is his talk. So he should be on the screen I think he should be on the screen We'll take one question from the internet if the signal rate angel is ready And please get up to the microphones if you have questions you're in the room Yeah, uh, is there anything we can do within the us legal system to stop this? Or is it essentially up to public pressure or legislatory the executive to drop the case? Yeah, I think there's been a lot of campaigning in the uk, but it would be would be really great to see some campaigning in the us um I think it would be quite worthwhile to contact your congressman and senators about this case because we've we've we've we have our mps Um, we have about a fifth of our government Signing a letter to bargobama, but we have nothing on the us side So I think it would be really powerful for the for um people in the us or politicians in the us To also try and do something because otherwise it would just seem like it's it's um the us is carrying to uk demands Yeah, I I would second that we need a lot more noise about this in the united states in my opinion I think for um elsewhere in the u of course Finland is a particular case here, but I think an awareness that um You know, it's not just hackers in the uk who are indicted in in in the us and Managed managed to stay here. This is a situation which happens all across the european union and one of the dangers Of lauri's cases that should he be extradited god forbid then it's going to open the floodgates elsewhere in the u as well So there really needs to be a proper rearguard action all over the place To stop the us asserting Yeah, extraterritorial jurisdiction over these kinds of issues We have more questions from the internet No more questions. Do any of you have any more questions in the room now is your time to shine come up to the microphones If not, do we have any final comments from the three of you on the panel? microphone number one Yeah, just to play You know devil's advocate kind of uh So you're saying it's mainly about vengeance The extradition But what about the argument that well? So you said there were 20 cases that were handled without extradition And i'm guessing the sentences were pretty lenient So maybe from the u.s perspective Okay, these guys are hacking into our computers from europe Their governments are giving them pretty lenient sentences because from the government's point of view I don't want at the political heat of putting some geeky Guy in prison who's you know, not some thug that uh so So when you say lenient you do i'm a lenient in comparison to the center of the u.s government So when you say lenient you do realize that the u.s government the u in the u.s Has the harsher sentencing guy? Was possible germy. No, that's what i'm saying that You're saying oh, maybe the u.s is concerned that if this You know it becomes the norm that these crimes there's no extradition and the The local governments will also always their incentive will be to give a very lenient sentence I think they probably do think something along those lines But on on the basis that they think that other sentences are lenient. I mean, they're not that lenient um Mr. Fenaya under restrictions until 2018 our case began in 2011 as if you face anything up and put anything up against the kind of punishments in the the u.s throughout um chelsea etc Hurts the u.s security and like what? I'm sorry What what kind of thing did you do? Did you do something that? Hurts u.s security? We were alleged to have hurt your security And i'm indicted in the united states in new york though no extradition was sought Yeah, our case is pretty severe like lorries. Don't worry Okay We have one more question from the internet. Yeah, someone on the on the irc tells me lori wants to say again Something is it possible to give rar to him? Whatever it is. It's kind of a great I think it's possible if the connectivity wants to play along lori So if it fails we could type it on irc and we can There's a five second delay or something What's happening? I think yes, the mic That's u.s security It's coming um Yeah, so We can hear you please to speak. I just wanted to say um U.s security would would be out by um improving the security Which means fixing the engineering problem Of the insecure services and products infrastructure That's not specially covered by By punitive sponsors to people that make them aware of those security problems Obviously there's a need to enforce the law and that prioritizing political acts rather than Taking advantage of the information to to fix the actual underlying problems Is probably not the best strategy I think i'll ask uh Naomi from the courage foundation to try and remind us what we could all be doing to help lori and also future cases if we get them Sure, so what what can you do to help larry? If you're in the uk and your mp did not sign the letter to obama saying the larry's extradition would be a bad thing And if you should be prosecuted in uk then you should you know if there's evidence then you um Should certainly write you should certainly write to them and ask them why they haven't signed And if they have signed you should you should write to them and say thank you for signing and please keep an eye on this as it goes forward Further than that it's really important to um Just make sure that people are aware of this case I think the internet is pretty much aware of this of this case But there's a whole world beyond the internet some of some of whom you know and some of whom you can speak to in person And that's um, that's very valuable Beyond beyond the uk as I've said we really need to raise the pressure on this in the united states Having some influential people in the united states coming forward and saying that this is a bad thing That should not be allowed to happen would be very would be very useful If you're in finland then put it then putting pressure on finished representatives. It would also be super useful and Beyond that there's there's a defense fund that you know with the defense fund We've been able to make sure that um, larry had the maximum number of expert witnesses possible at his extradition hearing And as we go further the cost implications could be quite serious. So that makes a massive difference Just keep an eye on what is going on. Um, you know follow the courage foundation follow follow larry's twitter and um Yeah, I imagine that there'll be further concrete things to do as we move on into the next year Goon, we have a couple of more final questions Comments. Um, well one last thing if you want to talk to larry and We're going to be hosting a one hour q&a session in the tea house on the fourth floor Well, the live theme will continue Yes, and um I just wanted to thank everyone here and on the internet for supporting larry and Many cases in our case back in 2011 Means we can be here today and talk about larry's case And we should move that forward and we should all harness that power and take the lessons We've learned so that the best outcome can be had for for larry Well, thank you very much for being here and thank you very much for a great panel And I think we should have one more round of applause also for the people that have been fighting very hard for you To be able to be here