 There you go. Okay, so so we have two more months like March with almost, yeah, middle of March and then April we are done. So I hope all of you are doing well. I'm getting something out of all the courses, you know, putting to practice what you've been learning and maybe even, you know, the key points, the things that that you're that stood out, you know, you're just making a note of it and yeah, I'm sure there's a deposit happening somewhere in your spirit and I think that's something that you can pray and ask God and I know that I'm, you know, intentionally studying and, you know, engaging my mind and everything but Lord, I just want to receive in my spirit as well, you know, that can be our prayer as we go through the course and saying God, let me catch in my spirit, you know, put things in my spirit, write things in my spirit, you know, what I'm hearing, what we are studying and the Lord would do that, right? And the best part is this, like, we have the Holy Spirit who indwells us and one of the things about the Holy Spirit, which the Lord Jesus said that, that he will, he's one who will remind us, right? In John chapter 15, I think, where we see that the Lord saying that, yeah, John 14, sorry, John 14, 26, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all the things that I said to you, right? Specifically there, he's talking about the disciples and what the Lord taught the disciples during, you know, those three years, three and a half years. So the Holy Spirit will remind you of those things, but we see that that's something that, that that is the ministry of the Holy Spirit, right? That's a functioning of the Holy Spirit that he will teach and he will also remind us of the things. So yeah, so we can be encouraged that, well, all the inputs that I'm getting, you know, day in and day out, the Lord will remind me of these things, you know, even as I receive in my spirit, even as I engage my mind and intellect to understand these things, to put these things together. Some of these things seem to be like slipping away, but then I, you know, we lean into the ministry of the Holy Spirit, he will remind us of these things to come, of these things, whether he's taught us, right? So yeah. Okay, so sorry, somebody did someone put a hand up? Okay, fine. Oh yeah, Chris, go ahead, please. Oh, yes, Pastor. So I was, as you were just talking to this app, I was just wanting to ask you a question in regards to, you know, the, you know, the impression you have and, you know, the, you know, what is your feel about, you know, the level, not the level of it, not just the level of interaction, but also, you know, what, what kind of feedback do you get from, you know, the online classes or the, you know, the in class, you know, that used to happen before, before, before COVID. The in-person classes, okay. I think for me, I think, personally, I think, you know, it has been, you know, extremely positive and, you know, obviously, there's a lot of, a lot of, you know, really good, you know, learning that I have personally got. But I think, you know, I think it may have been a bit different, you know, if it is, if it was in class. Yeah. The other point is that from a point of view of, you know, just being, you just have, you know, the application of it, you know, in the class itself, I know decently, you know, some of the, some of the other lecturers have been, you know, trying to put us in breakout groups and, you know, engaging, you know, engaging with us, you know, in a more personal way, but also, there's also engagement within the, within the participants, within the students themselves, which I think is really good, you know, I mean, I think that's where technology has actually facilitated that. So I guess my point is that, you know, what maybe, what maybe some of the feedback that you may want to provide to us and also whether there is opportunity to, you know, to provide, to do some more, you know, interaction in this particular class, because I think leadership is, is, I mean, it's, it's, you know, it's, there is learnings, but there's also definitely to apply it. How would it be different in an in-class, you know, when you taught this in class environment versus, you know, now? Yeah. Yeah. In person, of course, I was just thinking of a couple of things. Thanks for that feedback also, Chris. A couple of things would be, of course, our, the in-class, you know, we won't think twice about having a group discussion, you know, splitting it to different groups and then doing that, whereas here, you know, not always. And also, I think in person, the informal discussions, you know, maybe during the break, maybe, you know, one-on-one chats or just the informal discussions that we could have outside of class, you know, when you just step out during a tea break, you know, I think those are things that we, that we really messed, I mean, miss and we can't really replicate online. But apart from that, I think, yeah, like my, my observation is that the feedback, my feedback is that, you know, we've, we've had some good engagements, some good questions, which have sparked some good discussions. But I take your feedback. I'll see how we can, how best we can, maybe we can look at case studies, maybe, you know, in a, in a, in a in-person setting, we could also do these group presentations where people can step up and then, you know, do a group presentation, each person doing different, you know, aspects of that presentation. But yeah, I'll see how we can do this. Maybe we can do some case studies. We can do some group discussions. So, so yeah, I'll find out. So you've been doing a breakout session in the Google platform. Have you been doing that? Yes, yes. So we have done it recently. I think this, this week, we did it in, in Pastor Gene's class. Oh, OK. And I think we also have done it in Nancy Ramirez's class. Oh, OK, OK. Yeah, so both the classes, both the classes would be here. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll see. I'll also talk to the faculty. I'll see, you know, how they did it. And it didn't really occur to me how we could do it. But yeah, that's something that we could do. Thank you. Yeah. Right. Any other thoughts or any other feedback? I know we didn't plan this, but maybe you can take a minute or two to make the learning even more, you know, helpful, maybe. OK, you can always feel free to email me as well. Right. You know, my email ID. So, OK, thanks, Chris. Thanks for that feedback. OK, so, yeah, let's, let's continue. So we're looking at, OK, the certification part. Could you please explain, Shreemma? Yeah, thank you, Pastor. Just want to, just want to share, like, is it, I don't know how it is possible or not. But even I'm not aware about the, like, it's absolutely, it's a, it's a, like, the, the, it's very informative and it is really, you know, building each one of our personal spiritual growth. But the, the part of certification of this course, how valid it is, like, no, I just want to know that. And, especially in India where we need, you know, a special kind of, you know, this Asian theology, ATA approval and all. OK, OK, so that, that area, how can we develop? That's only one thing because as we are getting that degree, absolutely, we are getting more than what we are learning from another private college. But when we, when we're spending three years and, and that the ATA is not there, then we have to just look for something else also, you know, to, to get that certification or whatever it is. Oh, OK, OK, OK, for maybe for your post-graduation. Post-graduation or whatever it is, then, then again, we have to do something another three years or two years, you have to spend for something which is connected with ATA to, like, from other colleges to get that ATA approval. Yeah, so that's one thing I just wanted to say. Yeah, so yeah, it's true that we do not have an ATA accreditation. Maybe this is... Is it only valid in India or, or is it in abroad, you can use this certification? I'm not too sure about that, yeah, I'm not too sure. Probably Diana would be, Diana Nancy would be able to answer that. Or maybe even Pastor Ashish, I'm not really familiar with that. You could write to, you know, you could write to Diana and get that information. Thank you, Pastor. Right, OK, OK, yeah, so if you have anything related to the course in that aspect, you know, about certification, about accreditation, about maybe you want to do a higher thing, you know, post-graduation or something overseas, if you're thinking and, you know, how this would help. You could check with Diana, I'm not too familiar with that. Sure, Pastor, sure, thank you. OK, OK, OK, let's, we'll continue. OK, let's just share that. OK, here we go. Just reading Matthew 22 versus 34 to 40. OK, so the lawyer comes, the scribe comes and asks the Lord a question, verse 35, then one of them, a lawyer asked him a question, testing him, saying, teacher, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said to him, you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it. You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. And then Paul also echoes that in Galatians five, when he says, for all the laws fulfilled in one word, even in this, you shall love your neighbor as yourself. So so in that conversation with the scribe, the Lord points out to the to the great commandment, the first commandment as, you know, as we read in Mark chapter 12, which is about being sold out to God, you know, a spirit, soul and body to to love him wholeheartedly, to which means to get to know him and walk with him intimately and so on. But we see how closely that is tied with a loving people as well, because God is God's heart is for people. You know, God God's heart is to commune with people to have that fellowship with people, right? And and we see that when we see that all the time that God is interacting, he's not isolating himself from people or alienating himself from people. So so it just goes on. It's just natural that when you love God with all your heart, you know, what flows out of that is to love people, love your neighbor as yourself. So loving God and loving people going together and loving God, you know, out of that flows our love for people, right? So we're going to look at, you know, how we can win with people, winning with people and in ministry as leaders. So I just thought it'd be good if we watch a video by John C. Maxwell and John C. Maxwell, as we know, has written a lot of books on leadership. And and some of you have been very, I think, avid readers of his books from what I see. So just watch a video about this particular topic of winning with people and his this old video. So we'll watch and then probably some at some sections we could pause and we could discuss as well, right? So and John C. Maxwell, he started off as a pastor. He founded a church and pastoring a church, quite successful, but he felt the Lord call him into this space, you know, even which involves, you know, secular audience and to talk about leadership, to to write about leadership and he's he's really made a made a mark and and a really strong voice on leadership and a refreshing voice on leadership and and and and the Lord has been using him quite, you know, successfully and and and as a voice of impact in that area. So so when he talks about this, you know, certain things are very, very practical and but he comes from a biblical standpoint, you know, though he may not really quote scripture quote verse, I mean, chapter and verse for each and every statement or each and every principle. But you know that it's founded on biblical principles, right? And of course, some of his examples and illustrations are very, very American because he is one. So it's it's closer home for him to talk about those kind of scenarios. So that's the only thing that we need to be mindful of, right? OK. So let's let me try and share that video and we'll watch. I I will be switching off my camera, but I just want you guys to engage with it, right? And don't switch off. OK, let me share the video. Just give me a thumbs up on the chat. Recently, I was OK amused by some of the resumes that I saw in Forbes magazine. It was kind of almost like a can you believe that people would put this on your resume type of an article? And I thought since this is a relationship lesson and I've written a relationship book, I thought I would just share with you a few of these resumes. You just you're just not going to believe them. For example, these are real resumes, OK, people applying for real jobs, people saying things like it's best for employers if I don't work with people. Now, there's one to hire, isn't it? Huh? Oh, I'm so sorry. Yes, well, we'll put you over here in the corner and you'll never see anybody. We don't want to have people involved in your life. Here's another one. The company made me a scapegoat just like my previous employers. Absolutely. Just I'm the scapegoat. Here's one note, please don't misconstrue my 14 jobs as job hopping. I have never quit a job. One more. I love this one. References, none. I've left a path of destruction behind me. The book is entitled Winning with People Discover the People Principles that Work Every Time. Now, when you look at that book and you realize that I say discover the people principles that work every time, I didn't say, and I want to make sure you understand it, I didn't say discover the people principles that work every time for everybody. I didn't say discover the people principles that work for others every time. I did say discover the people principles that work for you every time because two things in your notes, these people principles will help you better understand others and two, they will help you better understand yourself. The result, the daily practice of these people principles will improve your people skills with everyone. Note, I did not say everyone would like you. That's impossible. You see, we cannot always determine how others will respond to us. We can't always determine how we will respond to others. So therefore note, when I respond correctly to you, I win. That's what these people principles will teach you. They'll teach you how to respond correctly to others. When others respond correctly to me, we win. What I'm concerned about is not how other people relate to you, I'm concerned about how you relate to others. A long time ago I learned that I cannot control the actions or the reactions of others. But if I understand people correctly and if I have good people skills, I can control mine. And I can determine not how they feel about me, but I can determine how I feel about them. In fact, one time I shared with someone, I said, I have no enemies. And they looked at me and said, well, how could you have no enemies? Being a leader like you are and a strong leader in building organizations, you've got to have a lot of people that aren't happy with you. I said, oh, no, no. I didn't say a lot of people weren't unhappy with me. It's, I have no enemies. See how you treat me, that's your choice. How I treat you, that's my choice. If you don't like me, that's your choice. I'll still choose to like you. Too many times we underestimate the power of personal choice. And when I talk about how these people principles will help you to win with people, what I know is if you have the right attitude with the right relationship skills and the proper understanding of people, you will always win in your notes. In life, the skills you use and the people you choose will make or break you. I've divided the people principles in this book according to five critical questions that we must ask ourselves if we want to win with people. Number one is readiness. Are we prepared for relationships? Number two, connection. Are we willing to focus on others? Three is trust. Can we build mutual trust? For investment, are we willing to invest in others? And finally, number five, synergy. Can we create a win-win relationship? I want to talk to you first of all today about readiness. Are we prepared for relationships? Now, in this readiness level of relationships, there are five people principles. Number one, the lens principle. The lens principle says who we are determines how we view others. I love the Groucho Marx comment. I wouldn't want to belong to any club that would accept me as a member. Says it all, doesn't it? You see, the question I must ask myself is what is my perception of others? Because who you are determines the way you see everything. You cannot separate your identity from your perspective. All that you are and every experience that you've had color how you see things. It's in your lens. Here's what I mean. Number one, who you are determines what you see. A Coloradan moved to Texas and built a house with a large picture window from which he could view hundreds of miles of range land. When asked how he enjoyed the view he responded, the only problem is there's nothing to see. About the same time a Texan moved to Colorado and built a house with a large picture window overlooking the Rockies. When asked how he liked it, he said the only problem with this place is that you can't see anything because all those mountains are in your way. Who you are determines how you see. I was having dinner the other day with Francis Husslevine and I was also having time with Jim Collins, having a wonderful really three hour dinner in that process. And because Francis has been with Peter Drucker for many, many years, I asked her what was the greatest thing that he ever taught her. She said that he has said to her many, many times, Francis, look out of the window. And see things that are within your view that others do not see. What Peter Drucker was basically saying is we all can look at the same thing, but we don't all see the same thing. We're going to see according to who we are. For example of that, my wife, Margaret, very aware of what people wear. Many times we'll be at a party together and she'll say, you know you were talking to the guy in the blue, sweater. What was he talking about this evening? And I'll look at her and I'll say, what blue sweater? I can't relate. Now, she sees the person with the blue sweater. That's how she views people by how they dress, what clothes they have on. Personally, that's nothing that really grabs hold of me. Now, see, she looks at a person entirely different than I look at a person. Who we are determines what we see. Number two, who you are determines how you see others. It's a classic old story of two guys, separate families that were moving into a little town and on one day one of the guys who was moving into town stopped at the local hardware store and said, I've got to ask you a question. He said, how are the people of this town? And the owner of the hardware store looked at him and said, well, let me ask you a question. How are the people of the town that you came from? He said, oh, they weren't very friendly. He said, in fact, that's why I'm really glad to be moving into this town. And the guy at the hardware store said, you know, I'm so sorry. They're not very friendly here either. A couple of days later, another guy dropped by the same hardware store and said, I'm moving here. He said, I've got to ask you a question. How are the people of the town? And again, the owner of the hardware store looked at him and said, let me ask you, how were the people of the town that you just left? Oh, he said, we hated them. Those people were so friendly and so warm. They had great relationships. The owner of the hardware store said, I've got great news for you. They're friendly here also. You see, it's a fact. Who you are determines how you see others. The way people see others is a reflection of themselves. For example, if I'm a trusting person, I will see others as trustworthy. If I'm a critical person, I will see others as critical. If I'm a caring person, I will see others as compassionate. You're all had it right when he said, you teach people how to treat you. That is a powerful statement. Number three, who you are determines how you view life. I have the privilege of speaking to a lot of NFL teams. And one of the teams I've done a lot of work with is the St. Louis Rams. And I have a wonderful friend on the Rams team who is an offensive coach named John Matsko. And recently I was at a Rams game and I was sitting with his wife, Kim, and some of the wives of the other coaches on the St. Louis team. And I know for a fact, because I've known John for probably 15, 18 years, that they've lived in at least seven or eight different cities, kind of being a coach. They move from city to city and are coaching with different teams. And so I said, Kim, I've got to ask you a question. Of all the cities you've lived in, I said, what's your favorite city? And she said to me, she said, where I am right now? I said, oh, you like St. Louis better than the other cities that you ever lived in. She said, I didn't say that. Yes, we want my favorite city is. And she said, my favorite city is where I am right now. What Kim was really saying to me that day was, where you live, who you're around, basically you're going to determine how you view people by how you are yourself. And Kim was saying, I have a good attitude about wherever I am. And so therefore I like wherever I am. Number four, who you are determines what you do. The question I've always asked myself is, what determines who I am and who you are? Well, number one is genetics, no doubt about that. My wife and I have had the privilege of adopting two children. They're now grown, married, and we have four grandchildren from them. And they were great delights to us. But when I and Margaret adopted them, you know, many, many, many years ago, I was about 85% environmentalist and about a 15% genetics. Now having raised two adopted children, I'm about 85% genetics and about 15% environment. It's kind of like when I was a pastor and didn't have any children. I had great lessons on how to raise your kids. Then I had some and went into about a 20-year silence. But who we are, major genetic issues. Number two, self-image. He was exactly right when T.S. Eliot said, half of the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They do not mean to do harm. They are absorbed in the endless struggle to think well of themselves. Number three, experiences in life. Basically, the experiences that you and I have do mold us. And I would say this. We've all heard it said that experience is the best teacher. But I'm here to tell you it isn't. It never has been. I've known all kind of people who have had all kind of experience and they haven't learned anything. Just because you're getting older doesn't mean you're getting better. Evaluated experience is the best teacher. The ability to look at where you have been and what you have done and pull back and reflect and evaluate. That's the instructor of our life. Number four, attitude. Attitudes and choices about those experiences determine what you and I do. Number five, friends. Friends that we associate with have a great determining factor on who we are and what we do. I close with this paragraph on people principle number one, the lens principle. The way you view others is determined by who you are. You cannot get away from that truth. If you don't like people, that really is a statement about you and the way that you look at people. Who you are determines how you view others. Your viewpoint is the problem. If that's the case, don't try to change others. Don't even focus on others. Focus on yourself. If you change yourself and become the kind of person you desire to be, you will begin to view others in a whole new light and that will change the way you interact in all of your relationships. People principle number two. Okay, I hope you enjoyed that. I would just like to add one more thing which determines who we are which is really what we've been learning from the first semester. He's been talking about identity but the fact that who we are in Christ actually covers everything else and supersedes everything else. When we come to that understanding of revelation and if we allow that revelation and truth to change us from the inside out that would change everything else. I just want to hear your thoughts about getting ready to relate to others. Something that you learned from this, something that stood out for you. Just leaving it open. Go ahead and say it. Thank you Pastor. I think one thing that stands out from everything he said is when we want to relate with people or if we have issues with people it's very important for us to check ourselves. We could be the peep problem or a viewpoint or a perception of that situation or that person or people around us could be from us. So I think the first place to always start out as a leader or as an individual is to look at ourselves. Is that something we're missing? Is there where we're looking at this situation? It could be different from what it's exactly. So I think it's very important we first of all work with ourselves before we even try to solve a problem or even try to correct someone else. And I think it's very important again that for us to succeed in relating with people we ourselves must be comfortable with who we are, our identity like you pointed out again in Christ but we must be comfortable with ourselves we must be sure of who we are once we're sure about who we are in Christ and we have that inner God confidence within it's easy now then to relate with other people. Right. Awesome. Yeah. Praise God. Thank you Sey. Having worked in like four organizations prior to coming and to work prior to working with church realize that you see broken people as leaders you see people with insecure people as leaders you see people with so many issues as leaders and who are overlooking who are seeing some great I mean some big responsibilities and of course we're all works in progress I'm not denying that but the fact is that when we are healthy and whole then the way we see things changes when we are healthy and whole the way we relate to people is totally different. Right. So the importance of you know as the Lord entrusts us with people the beautiful thing is that we are works in progress who are leading others who are works in progress but the more we we receive from him and all these fundamental issues are dealt with and we have the access for that we have the resources in Christ we have people whom God places in our lives to bring about that to change that about us to enable us to be a success in our relationships right and this is very very crucial the way that we work on ourselves that we receive healing and wholeness that we receive strength and so we come to a healthy way of viewing ourselves that we don't put ourselves down at the same time we don't inflate ourselves or you know esteem ourselves higher than what we should and the word of God is like a mirror it shows us exactly the true worth a true picture of who we are and that is why we are excited to in the book of James to look into the word to continue in it and it's like a mirror it shows us who we are anyone else what you picked up from what you saw something that was highlighted to you yes please go ahead can you hear me can you hear me yeah I can hear you something that I have been thinking it stayed with me while watching the video and even before is so this is mostly positive and it's about working with people on building equity working with people's collaborating I'm thinking more on the negative like what happens when the people that like there are people who have differences people that you don't really like that so I think two scenarios one is let's say people you know you don't really like but do you still do you still onboard them knowing you're not knowing that you're not very confident but you still hire them I think you hope to be part of it I'm sorry Sam the last part I didn't get you know people who you don't like do you still onboard them you're talking about a professional decision a writing decision yes something like that collaborate you decide to collaborate do that hoping that you will be able to change your perception or similarly people working with you working with you and you try to address but you're seeing that changes not happening break that walk away from it how long do you keep being talking about it or keep trying to change your perception versus just calling it yeah I think that's an important question an important decision that needs to be made as well you know when it comes to hiring of course things are clear your expectations are clear and yes people are different but you have your expectations based on competence based on how they would culturally fit into the ministry or organization you know it's not you're not really being partial but this is your you know this is your expectation this is your profile for the role it could be a church it could be ministry it could be an organization business whatever but this is you have a set expectation profile okay you look at the competence you look at their personality type you look at the you know the culture and values so they stand for and you see if it will be a right fit for for that role there could be certain things which can be aligned because of training and and mentoring and so on so it's really a you know a call that you take at that time right and and of course most organizations have that period of orientation where we're both the the one this is a this is like a what do you call probation time you see that if it works out and then there's an evaluation of it so it's made clear that maybe after a month or two months then you know evaluate and when you don't see things change then we will have to probably take a decision again and then that's one thing and of course in a organization you know as time goes by you know you always have those checks you know you always have like a performance appraisal ministry appraisal where there is a feedback to the person on skill it could be on attitude it could be on several other aspects right it could be so many other things and you say that okay this is the feedback and these are areas of change and growth improvement and so on so let's say a person is being a difficult person you know being very disruptive not getting along with others and of course you know being the compassionate leader you need to find out why is this happening maybe things at the home front are not going well is there some kind of pressure that the person is going through of course we find all that in conversation and try to address that and say hey this is not really helping and this is how it's affecting this is how it's affecting you know the morale of people it's affecting the productivity of people so something has to change right and the person might have 3-4 you know saying 1, 2, 3 these are the reasons and so you address that solve that and then give time for the person to change and then we keep going and at the same time you know you're checking your motive your motive also at the same time saying okay am I being objective in this am I being partial, am I being biased am I bringing my personal biases into this right so you check that and which is why you know organizations have you know maybe a panel or you know even for the interview where you get objective very objective evaluation right when it comes to interviews but when it comes to your direct reports maybe it's just yeah so samus question is have you fired someone over performance issues would you be able to share a live example how you went about it okay fired someone okay I am not personally have I no I don't think so oh yeah I mean in the sense not fired I wouldn't use the fired word but we've had to ask the person to step down and I think it was so we've had you know we we've had issues this was someone who was you know volunteering and serving in the worship team and there were some issues so we had a long chat about it discussion a very real discussion so myself roshan and this person and then we had a discussion just to evaluate okay how things are going and hey you know are you happy doing what you're doing and the person came back with you know with certain things this is what I find is wrong in the you know in the practice sessions and the person was coming from a place of saying okay you know I have these all these years of experience and all these yeah you know this has been my qualification this has been my training and this is my experience so and here I have someone this person you know just raised like at that point maybe I'm talking about maybe three four years back just joined the team you know and was having these issues having these challenges so and people who are also feeling a little you know uncomfortable so and the reason was this I said how can I how can this person not take my input how can this person not and I have all these years of experience and everything and I'm coming from that place at the same time this person also is feeling you know was not able to take the suggestions and feedback and input of someone who was younger than then younger in age maybe younger and in terms of experience or less experience and so on so so then we had to again go back and say okay you know it could be so but this is what this is our objective it's not about maybe you have a valid you know and we look to again go into the details and say you know we went into the details to see what was the thing you know okay it was about this card about that card and then we had to share this is the feedback about you about your skill level your lack of it so it doesn't just it's not just about how many years of experience you have or qualifications you know you have about the particular thing but having being able to put and being able to deliver so you know and it doesn't matter if the feedback is coming from someone experienced you know that person is part of the team and you take it well so we had to address things like that and then we also found out that there were other issues other issues domestic issues so which were coming which were really adding to the problem and then just felt that it was okay you know why don't you initially you just felt like saying okay why don't you take some time out and then get back but then just felt that it's better that we asked that person to focus on some other area of ministry rather than the worship thing because the other issues were not going to go away because it was very clear even if we made changes in a few areas the other things he was not going to make any changes whatsoever because it was beyond him so he said rather than things not helping in not this this really not making things any better at the home front I think it's better that you focus on that and it would be better that you focus on some other area of ministry which does not require so much commitment of time some other area of ministry but yeah so we suggested that and he also graciously accepted and yeah we're still friends we're still you know working I mean working in the sense of worshiping together but you know from time to time pray call etc but yeah so this would be the closest to high for me personally not really fired because we are dealing with volunteers here and this is what we had to do so yeah and it's not always a comfortable thing I know like given my personality I really had to work at it and you know do this right so but the thing is we need to be true to ourselves true to what we are actually the bigger picture we're serving we're serving God and we're serving God together and we have you know shared set of expectations and of course this you know it's not like the over one conversation it's done with this was the you know the final conversation which happened so yeah so King Saul performance is used then so I hope this was helpful Sam it is one of the I think most difficult conversation to have absolutely it is it is difficult yeah it is difficult because you're thinking of you know what would happen to the person you know this was okay but I'm sure you know there are other things where it involves the livelihood of the person your you know but then it has to be done it has to be done in a ministry scenario it has to be done sometimes we think you know you should not do that no we need to be true to God we need to be true to others and do it with grace and with love bringing the person all together you know you're still being in touch with the person and you do it with the communication with regard you know honour and it has to be done right so Tharun about King Saul how God rejects King Saul is that what you're saying I was just thinking through performance issues but yeah that's a good scenario to like I'm just pondering on like we did it is it because of the performance issues how God let someone else in this place also I just wanted to add that there are like you know firing usually happens in the corporate world because of ethical issues or integrity issues something really drastic like inside our trading or some abuse things like that which the policies don't allow them to continue further and it's a straightforward thing that it's proven guilty and they are fired but there are also good scenarios where the company has to ramp down otherwise they will not be able to grow further and they will want to fire people but there are some good companies which have turned themselves into a consultant where they have rolled out policies for the next six months let's say you have to remove about thousand people they took the responsibility of placing those thousand people in other forms by creating advertisements saying that we have these profiles which are available but we are ramping down for so and so reasons if you could hire them it would be great so they continuously placed ads on the weekly magazines reached out to top consultants and ensured that all of them were placed in a very formal manner wow that's brilliant that's really awesome that a firm could do that that the human side of the firm really comes in and I think great leadership and great courage and compassion in wanting to do that super okay that's all time we have for today so we'll stop here and we'll catch up next week okay so have a great weekend god bless you all see you again bye bye