 The world witnessed the first clash between Hassan Mahdi and atheist Richard Dawkins over a decade ago during Hassan's tenure with Al Jazeera. This confrontation captured the attention of audiences across Britain and beyond, sparking ongoing discussions about Islam, religion and their implications in the Western world and globally. Upon reviewing the footage and arguments, the open-minded thinker show news team noted a distinct detachment from atheist logic and the implications of Dawkins arguments. Hassan effectively employed simple yet intelligent mechanisms to dismantle Dawkins assertions. In line with our commitment to impartial reporting and geopolitical analysis, we encourage viewers to engage with this information, stay informed about developments in Palestine and subscribe to our channel for timely updates. While some may challenge this perspective, it remains relevant, particularly in light of continued Israeli aggression against the Palestinian people in Gaza. The resurgence of the clash between Mahdi, who advocates for an Islamic West, and Dawkins, who advocates for the preservation of Christian culture in Britain, follows Prime Minister Rushi Sunak's assertion that Britain is a Christian country. Before delving further into this discussion, let's first review the Easter address that ignited the debate. For many of us in the UK, Easter is a chance to pause and reflect an opportunity to spend some precious time with our families. The British radio station recently revisited a rematch between Hassan and Dawkins to discuss the assertion that Britain is a Christian nation. This time the exchanges occurred at different times and places, with different presenters facilitating the discussion. Both individuals were tasked with reiterating their positions on religion, focusing on the growth of Islam in Britain, and the perceived decline of Christian values and culture in the nation. The two intellectuals remained steadfast in their positions, mirroring their previous encounters. Dawkins once again expressed a bleak view of what he perceives as Christian culture, while Hassan highlighted the challenges Islam faces in an increasingly Islamophobic West. From a neutral standpoint, it was evident that both intellectuals showed no mercy or consideration for each other, yet they also revealed underlying insecurities. They warned of an enduring identity and cultural crisis that could potentially unravel the fabric of national culture and faith. While there are contradictions in Dawkins' position regarding the preservation of Christian culture and the progress associated with it, the ideologies and beliefs that underpin it must be reevaluated for the betterment of society. Dawkins vehemently denounced the ancient faith. Hassan, on the other hand, sought to contextualise Islam in a manner that aligns with the ideals of Western societies, while preserving its unique systems. The exchange proved to be intriguing, but let's begin by examining Professor Richard Dawkins' perspective. Professor Dawkins, it's very good to have you join us to discuss whether it matters that Christianity is playing a diminishing role in national life. Welcome to LBC. Thank you. And what would be your Easter message? I mean, I've said a few things. What would you tell the nation? Well, I must say I'm slightly horrified to hear that Ramadan is being promoted instead. I do think that we are culturally a Christian country. I call myself a cultural Christian. I'm not a believer, but there's a distinction between being a believing Christian and being a cultural Christian. And so, you know, I love hymns and Christmas carols and I sort of feel at home in the Christian ethos. I feel that we are a Christian country in that sense. It's true that statistically the number of people who actually believe in Christianity is going down, and I'm happy with that. But I would not be happy if, for example, we lost all our cathedrals and our beautiful parish churches. So I count myself a cultural Christian. I think it wouldn't matter if we, certainly if we substituted any alternative religion. That would be truly dreadful. Well, which brings me to my supplementary point, which is that, as we know, church attendance is plummeting, but the building, the erection of mosques across Europe, I think 6,000 are under construction, and there are many more, I mean, are being planned. So do you think you regard that as a problem? Do you think that matters? Yes, I do really. I mean, I choose my words carefully. I mean, if I had to choose between Christianity and Islam, I choose Christianity every single time. I mean, it seems to me to be a fundamentally decent religion in a way that I think Islam is not. I think you're going to have to explain why you say that, Professor Dawkins. Why is Islam fundamentally not decent, like Christianity? Yes. I mean, the way women are treated. I mean, Christianity is not great about that. It's had its problems with female vickers and female bishops and things. But there's an active hostility to women, which is promoted, I think, by the holy books of Islam. I'm not talking about individual Muslims who, of course, are quite different, but the doctrines of Islam, the Hadith and the Quran, it's fundamentally hostile to women, hostile to gays. And I find that I like to live in a culturally Christian country, although I do not believe a single word of the Christian faith. Just for balance, should we say something about fundamentalist Christians who, you know, we can see abortion rights, reproductive rights being rolled back in Republican states in America. So Christianity is still not without its problems when it comes to women and their rights. Well, you didn't ask me about Christianity in America. That's a different matter entirely. All right. Well, I'm sure we've got some fundamentalist Christians here too, but not as public. Well, insofar as fundamentalist Christians oppose evolution and think that the world is created 6,000 years ago, I mean, that is pernicious nonsense, of course. Right. Well, so I think I see where you come from. I like the phrase, you're a cultural Christian. I think I'm a bit more than a cultural Christian, although, you know, it does my belief waxes and wanes. Would it be a good thing or a bad thing if we became a less Christian country? And just on the, you know, the foundation of this nation with the king being the head of church and state, do you think it provides a solid foundation that we and we would lose something if, let's say, there was a Muslim majority? Well, yes. I think the king, when he was Prince of Wales, was actually rather sympathetic towards Islam and one of the problems I felt. No, I think it would be a terrible thing. And insofar as Christianity can be seen as a bullock against Islam, I think it's a very good thing. In Africa, for example, where you have missionaries of both faiths operating, I'm on team Christians, as far as that's concerned. It's interesting because I sort of thought that you would be more of a hitch in height. God is not great advocate, but it's interesting to me that you see the value and the force for good of the United Kingdom having a Christian foundation. Yes, but I must emphasize that I think that the things that Christians believe are actually nonsense. I mean, I think that when you say you waiver, I wanted to ask you, do you actually believe that Jesus had a virgin for a mother? Do you actually believe he rose from the dead? I suspect you probably don't. Well, weirdly, since you ask, Richard, if I may, because I was at New College when you were, are you still a don at New College? Yes. Well, I'm retired. You're retired, but you don't look anyway. Weirdly, I was just three weeks ago at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem, where the Christians believe that Christ was crucified or there was the tomb and the Gethsemane was just there and Golgotha was there. And I have to admit that there is a real force. I mean, it feels like the fulcrum of three world religions. It really does. And Christianity is palpable there. Almost the place pulses with Christianity. I don't know whether it made me believe the Bible anymore, but I certainly felt that Jesus was a historical figure. Yes, I did believe that. Am I wrong to think that? No, no. That's quite different. But do you believe that his mother was a virgin? Well, I mean, maybe that was a misconciliation of... Richard Dawkins' loss of faith in Christianity reflects his ambivalence towards both Christianity and Islam. While advocating for the abandonment of belief in a higher power in the Western world, he simultaneously argues for the preservation of a Christian identity, labelling it as cultural Christianity. This stance masks Islamophobia as Dawkins suggests that preserving Christianity is preferable to the perceived threat of Islam becoming dominant in Britain. Dawkins, known for his opposition to religious dogma and indoctrination, supports the idea of education that promotes free thinking and skepticism. However, he considers Islam off limits, despite his critique of Christianity and its practices. This inconsistency could be viewed as hypocrisy, as Dawkins played a role in fostering doubt and undermining the Christian faith. It's important to note two issues with Dawkins' position. Firstly, he may be either deluded or seeking unnecessary attention. Secondly, while his works may have contributed to the decline of faith in Christianity, Islam continues to grow, posing a potential challenge to Western Christianity's dominance. Hassan Mahdi offered a serious response to this dilemma. Now, I'm joined by Mehdi Hassan, who's a journalist, editor-in-chief and CEO of the new media company Zateo. Mehdi, thank you for joining me. Tell me what you thought when you heard that clip. Thanks, Anishka, for having me. I thought a lot of things. I mean, me and Richard Dawkins go way back. We've been sparring for over a decade. I interviewed him on my then Al Jazeera show back in 2012 about religion. And a few things come to mind. Number one, for years his supporters and he told me and others, we don't hate Islam. We're not picking on Islam. We hate all religions. People are going to say, don't you not sure we believe you? And I think there was confirmation of that on Sunday with Richard Johnson, where he made it very clear. He likes Christianity a lot. He doesn't like Islam a lot. So I'm glad that cat's out of the bag. Finally, it's taken about 12 years for people to catch up. I would also say I wasn't surprised by what he said because I've been following his career and he's been very anti-Islam for a while. This is a man who's called Islam a cancer who said Islam is the greatest force for evil in the world. He says in that clip, I distinguish between Islam and Muslims. But of course, he's also said stuff like, who the hell do these Muslims think they are? He once called for me to be fired from the new statement because I believe in Islamic beliefs, which he then had to retract and apologize for. So he has a long history. He has form on this subject. The third thing I'd say is the number of falsehoods in that entire exchange, since when is Ramadan being promoted over Easter? Where's the evidence for that? There's zero evidence of that. LBC and its tweet yesterday referred to Easter lights not being up, but Ramadan lights being up. I haven't lived in the UK for nine years, but I did live there for 36 years before then. I don't remember seeing any Easter lights. That's a very good point. What are Easter lights? I know they're Christmas lights. I don't know what Easter lights are. So this is a bit of a fake row. This is a private endeavor. It's not from the government. It's not from Mayor Khan. It's not from the GLA. And look, why aren't we celebrating all religions? My Jewish cousins had Hanukkah in Trafalgar Square in December. There was a massive menorah and Hanukkah lights. Number one, great. I love it. We should have more of that. Number two, I don't remember Richard Dawkins or others in the right-wing media kicking up a fuss about that. And if Jeremy Corbyn had come out and said, I'm very unhappy about this menorah display in Trafalgar Square, you and your colleagues would rightly be all over him. So why are we not criticizing Richard Dawkins for this? Because Islamophobia is much more acceptable these days, sadly, than any other kind of bigger treat towards religious communities. God, do you actually think it means to talk about cultural Christianity in that way? Because one of the things I find is you can have a conversation about religion. And I quite enjoyed his book, The God Delusion. But there is a separate conversation, and that's about what people are like in their normal lives. And, you know, I was actually following an MP, Dawn Butler, around recently, because I'm doing a thing about MPs getting attacked much more. And I was at a mosque and Sadiq Khan was there and the local rabbi was there. And Jewish people and Muslim people were just living side by side, living their lives and the depiction that you sometimes get of what it might be like to be a Muslim, or to be a Jew just doesn't exist, as far as I can tell, in people's ordinary lives. Yeah, and a couple of things. Just before I answer your question about cultural Christianity, let's be very clear about the Islamophobia here. This is not a coincidence. People are attacking Sadiq Khan for being the Muslim mayor of London, including his Tory rifle. You have a Muslim First Minister of Scotland. You do have a lot of mosques being built, as Rachel ominously referred to in that clip, and people get very upset with change. They don't like the idea of, oh, Muslim is a coming. Sharia, law, takeover. All this nonsense that right-wing media has spent over the years. I think Cat's been attacked recently for doing something about Ramadan in the UK. It's all very... This is not a coincidence. As for cultural Christianity, Richard Dawkins tried to have his cake and eat it. As you say, he wrote The God Delusion. He spent years attacking organized religion. And now he says, well, I quite like the bits that involve singing and architecture. Those bits can we keep? Well, first of all, again, I question the premise. He says, I don't want to lose our cathedrals. Are we losing cathedrals in Ushka? I don't live in the UK. You work for ITV News. Have you done a breaking news story about cathedrals being dismantled in front of our eyes? I quite like cathedrals, too. By the way, I'm more pro-Christianity than he is. I love Jesus. I'm totally for Christians going to church. He's the one who spent years attacking religion. And now he's like, well, people don't go to church and churches are empty. Who's fault is that, Richard Dawkins? Maybe it's yours. Maybe you should look in the mirror about why people aren't turning up to church. I don't see why Muslims get blamed for Christians not turning up to church anymore. I find that very odd. And do you worry about the kind of state of debate around the UK at the moment when it comes to being Muslim? It's very, very worrying. Everyone I speak to in the UK, from what I'm watching from afar, it's very worrying when you have, for example, the former Home Secretary saying Islamists run Britain and you have the former vice chair of the Tory party saying, Sadek Khan is handed over London to his Islamist mates. Again, let's just remind ourselves. We wouldn't tolerate this language about any other religion or faith community as your minority. If Zach Goldsmith had beaten Sadek Khan and was the Jewish mayor of London and somebody in the Labour Party went out and said, he's handed over London to his Zionist friends, we would be up in arms and rightly so. You cannot just push around these kind of lazy, racist, bigoted tropes and look, when Richard Dawkins says Islam is hostile to women and gays. Number one, making a sweeping claim about billions of people is the definition of bigotry. And number two, he says Christianity is a fundamentally decent religion. I agree with him it is, but every religion has its extremists. Come to the United States where I am, see what Christian nationalist politicians are doing on the abortion front, how they're criminalizing women and risking their lives. Go to Africa and see what the Christian church is doing to gay communities in Africa. Every religion has its extremists and bigotry. Every religion is grappling with this stuff. Don't just pick on Islam for God's sake. Let me just ask you on that. Okay, religion, and I'm talking about religion here, I'm not talking about culturally what we are. There is a stream across religions in which women have been oppressed and in which gay people have been oppressed. How do we have that conversation without offending people? Isn't it okay to be able to say, this in the Bible or this in the Quran has perhaps led to a situation in which people are oppressed? 100% I'm all for that. You want to quote the Bible or the Quran, let's do it all day long. That's not what Richard Dawkins did, though, is it? Richard Dawkins went on LBC yesterday in front of millions of people. This eminent biologist said, Christianity is a fundamentally decent religion and Islam is not. Again, if you'd gone on the radio and said Christianity is a decent religion and Judaism is not, I think you would have seen a much bigger backlash. We have normalised bigotry towards Islam in a way that we haven't against other faith communities. And I just think, you know, we should be able to have those conversations in Israel. I've had those conversations. I've written about homophobia and Islam. I've written about misogyny and Islam. So I've had those conversations. What you don't do is you don't say, Christianity is great for women, just has a few problems with female vickers. Islam, meanwhile, has a hostility towards all women. That's BS. You cannot make these sweeping statements. You cannot pretend one religion has some amazing record and the other religion doesn't and rank these religions in these ways. If you do, you need to bring much more evidence to the table than the great evidence base where Richard Dawkins bothered to bring.