 Great. And if you want to get started with the roll call and so forth. All right, so I am going to call to order the August 31st meeting of the governance organization and lodging committee at 902 AM pursuant to chapter 20 of the acts of 2021. We conducted a remote means members of the public are able to access the meeting in real time via zoom or by telephone. And now I'm going to take a moment to make sure that everybody can be heard, and can hear, and I will start with you Mandy. At present. Jennifer present. Special guests Lynn. Present. Okay, and then I think we can hear you and you can hear us right. Yes, thank you. Great. Can I just say one thing, or have a workman coming somewhere between 10 and 12 so I will have to step off it if he gets here during our meeting just briefly. Okay. Take care of that. Yeah, and we'll still be okay I think with just three of us. And I won't be going that long. I really want my five minutes max. Awesome way less. And I have a go ahead Lynn please. I just want to be clear, because I have been with Michelle I have to be off and on another meeting at 10 today is the day that the mass school building authority votes on moving the elementary school project forward. Yeah. Yeah. Good. Okay, well we'll make sure that I'm going to quickly read the agenda and then I'm going to turn it over to you Lynn. Before I do that though I just at one of those calls this morning that the dentist office had an opening that I could take at 11am. And I really need to take it so I'm going to cut the meeting at 10 of 11 if that's okay with everybody, given that Anika is not here to turn it over to her. I could turn it over to someone else of that if we prefer but it's okay alright. Just a quick review of the agenda. We have my laws to review we're going to start the agenda off here with Lynn talking us about the town manager evaluation and there are several items that have been added to the packet that you can do that and follow along with. And then after we finish that will sort of reassess where we're at we have definitely have to get through the 2022 Puerto Rico heritage, Puerto Rico heritage day proclamation. And then we have several bylaws and a proposal which I'm actually not ready with yet so that will get bumped anyway. So, let's turn it over to you Lynn. Thank you. First of all, this is an annual item, one that Pat and Mandy Joe are enormously familiar with. And I look forward to input from all of you. I already see some places that I would like to make changes. There is no vote required. But the reason this comes to CRC is based on your charge. I mean, I'm sorry. Thank you so much. I can't believe we just did that to GOL is because of your charge. And specifically, I just want to read this section of your charge that applies to this. Lynn, just if you need us to bring anything up for you, please let us know Mandy usually is the one who does that. But any one of us can bring, if you want any materials to be shown on the screen, let us know. Actually, I'm looking at the charge and it's not specifically in the charge but it was voted I think about two or three years ago, the GOL would do a first review of what we're going to do in terms of the evaluation and then it comes to the council and it would go to the council on the 12. So, let me just give an overview and then can proceed. The town manager's evaluation is a requirement of the charter. It has to be done annually. And along with his evaluation is then a discussion that takes place first in executive session and then in public with regard to any adjustments in compensation, compensation above cost of living that was given to all other employees. This is the beginning of the process. We seek input from essentially four different groups. One is committees members of all committees of the town. Another is from the staff. A third is from the general public. The final goal to this is every counselor is asked to evaluate the town manager using a form that is, I'm proposing is similar to what we did last year. None of this can be done in a committee without it being a public process. Thus, you have these strange things like reading nights where we all get things in advance and we read them. The evaluation for staff is the same one that we've used in the past. We have talked and have talked about wanting to make changes in that. In fact, I had talked very seriously with the woman who is our HR director who is leaving. And she was highly wanting to do that but she's leaving and so getting that done became a challenge and it didn't happen. What we learned in over the years is that for the three groups of the committees, the public and staff, we get a sample, but it's not a statistical sample. And sometimes we get a better response and sometimes we don't. Last year, we included a video inviting people and that kind of thing and all that's in your packet. So all of that material comes from those three parties, it's then shared in summary form with the council so that as you write your evaluations, you can refer or use something out of them. I just want to make sure and I'll caution the whole council that again it's not a statistical sample. So, literally we could end up with 20 people from committees or we could end up with five we could end up with 30 employees or we could end up with 10. That kind of thing. We do have we are able to show a sample of our show the spread across which departments we get them from staff, but we don't show them in terms of the actual staff. So I, I've started each this each year with a calendar. And if you want, I can pull that calendar up and use that as a way and that's where I've already seen some adjustments that we could make. So either I can pull it up or Mandy Joe, I might make changes to our notes. If I pull it up. So, yeah, why don't you pull it up if you want to make changes. Okay, so here we go. Okay, just try to get this better centered in my screen. There we go. Alright, so today we're meeting obviously then we move on to the 12th, and we would share similar documents to the ones you've received on the 12th. Then right after that we finalize all the instruments then we do the distribution. And if we distribute for example, starting the Monday or the Tuesday of the week of September 19, then we would give people three weeks but there's reminders sent out in between. And that's what all this is about. It's very clear. We, I the council does not distribute to staff that is done by the director of human resources. And in the process, those items are summarized, and they are presented to us so that we cannot identify although clearly sometimes we can identify by people. Jennifer you had your hand up. Yes, my question words and anonymous when staff completes. Absolutely. Absolutely. The emails however that we get from committees and from the public are actually to the town council. That's one reason why you see the fact that for a brief period of about three weeks, we take Athena and Paul and Angela off of the council distribution list, so that they're not receiving this. And I'll mention this the meeting on Monday, the 12th, and we do that. So therefore, people need to make sure that if they want Athena to get something they don't just send it to town council members or town council at Amherst MA.gov. So everything is summarized, and then it is provided to counselors. And that would happen sometime around October 19. By then you will have a copy of the actual evaluation form, and you can start filling the form in anytime. We don't use survey monkey we don't use survey monkey anymore. We basically use a word document, and you send it back to me and only to me because then I summarize it in various forms. And then, when we do the packet on November 21. So we start the meeting at five o'clock if you're in the town room, we provide you with pizza. If you're not in the town room I don't know maybe we can send you a small pizza at home. I'll have to check on that. And in the process, we literally sit there and read, we are on TV because it has to be an open meeting it is the most bizarre feeling to have people in the public watching us sit there and read but we do. I try to compile things in a way that you can see the composite of the ratings and the composite of the comments, so that you can read it by question or by area. And by then, you've already received all that, and you will have written your evaluation and your evaluation becomes public. It's very important that people understand that. Then a first draft is developed, and that draft is brought to the town council. And here's where from here on. Things start to we might decide we can compress some of this so that it doesn't drag out over so many meetings. And I'm open to suggestions, Mandy Joe and that I think we may have compressed last year, so that we weren't dragging it to the last meeting. But counselors then look at the memo. And they provide comments they say you know I made this point and I don't feel it was especially reflected here and you know and so I make notes on that and then I make changes and I bring it back to the next meeting. And also at the next meeting we do have an executive session this year. I didn't do it last year but I did do it the year before. I did find comparables for town manager salaries, so that we're looking at the towns and the cities we would compete with if we had to replace Paul. And I think given what we're seeing with salaries right now, we may do that again. But in the past, Paul has periodically said I don't want anything other than the basic what I've already received received as cold. So, and finally we voted and so forth but I want to point out that in the process and this is where GOL really steps in. Mandy Joe has been masterful at help at working with GOL on this and that is, you also begin doing. When the goals for the town manager, and you can decide if you would like a council discussion before you start working or if you want to do a first draft and bring it to the council for a discussion. Did we lose Mandy Joe. Nope, she's still here. You just have to scroll down. Oh, I'm sorry. There we are. Okay. And so, similar to the past, we're starting to look at the town manager's goals at the same time we're finishing the evaluation. So that by the end of the year, we have finished the evaluation and we have adopted the town manager's goals. Additionally, we've also adopted the fiscal guidelines, which are part of the discussion that's been going on for a while. So with that, I'll, I can take this down or I can leave it up or pull it back up and I think we go ahead and ask questions. If everyone's okay with it coming down, I think we'd be able to have a better discussion. Okay, so if you have any questions for Lynn at this time. I know I have a couple but I'm going to hold them. So yes, Jennifer. So I want to ask in terms of the goals. It's in part on reflects what the comments were, or largely reflects that the new goals, the new goals do pick up on comments that happened during the evaluation, which is why it's important to be finishing the evaluation before we are coming close to finishing the evaluation before the goals are drawn. I should know this but haven't done evaluation before. There's, we can do narrative. Yes. Yes, you do a rating and you can certainly you're certainly welcome to do narrative. Thank you. Pat or Mandy, do you have any questions at this moment. No comments, but I'd like to hear questions from people that haven't been through this three times already. Okay. I have a couple. And the first one may seem really obvious but I'm actually wondering what is the purpose of the evaluation is it. I think Jennifer just picked up on something so it's to sort of inform the goals that sounds like one, one purpose. Is it also to decide on if there's going to be a compensation change like what is the sort of part of what we're trying to accomplish with the compensation is clearly one of it renewal of contract it during whenever renewal comes up is one of them. But more importantly, during the process Paul also provides us with his self assessment. So it's basically done the same way we do personnel assessments for all employees of the town, where they do a self assessment. And the supervisor and in this case where the supervisor does an assessment based on that. Okay, thank you that's really helpful. And then the other two notes that I have here are, and this is sort of a detail but for the email address, has it ever been considered to have a unique email address for specifically for feedback. The only reason we haven't done that is because this is the one the public knows, and I can explore that that's that's not that's actually a good idea. But I think what we would probably do is have this be the email address for the 13 counselors. And then if we were going to have anything that included the town manager and Athena and Angela. I'm seeing the correct me. I'm actually thinking Angela isn't regularly on this. Is that correct. Angela is regularly on the town council distribution list so as I believe Jennifer Moisten and digs on it. Oh, okay, thank you. So we remove others. Thank you. I will make that note. Yeah, and not only because of the confidentiality piece but as an engagement tool it and that was sort of leading into my second comment which is, if we want to engage more people, perhaps having a unique email that sort of says something about what what we're trying to do might help us engage more people. And then along those same lines, do we ask committee chairs to, I'm sure we ask committee chairs to announce to their committees that this is happening but do we ask committee chairs to carve out more time in a meeting or sort of not make it more of a requirement but encourage it more by carving out more time. You know, it's interesting in the past we used to give it to committee chairs and ask them to distribute to do all members but the problem is that some committees don't meet that often. So, last year, we didn't do it that way. We actually went it to all members of committees. And we had, I think one, maybe two but I think it was only one, one committee decided to send something in as a group. That they discussed, but other than that, people have just generally responded. And a lot of times committee members will say things like, I really have no basis to reply. Yeah. Yeah, make sense. Yeah. And I wouldn't want to have like a group think occur either you know which could happen in a committee. That actually, it gets pretty sticky because at that point they're discussing personnel. Exactly. Public and that's not encouraged at all. Yeah. Okay. That's all I have thank you Lynn. So Mandy, if you want to go ahead. So I don't think Lynn's going to be surprised but this timeline. It seems a bit long to me. Yeah. You know, the three weeks to even the three weeks from September 19 to, you know, distribute on September 19 or so, and then all responses are due. We're going to have to wait for 14 for full weeks to respond that Paul's out there, potentially an open meetings where he might have to attend the meetings because as you said, if they decide to call a thing like four weeks seems like too long. You know, we're spending a quarter of the year with Paul under evaluation at this point given what this timeline is and that just doesn't seem right to me. So even the amount of time the public and staff have to respond staff should be able to do it within a week a week and a half because they can take staff time to do it. They don't have to do it on their own. They get paid to do this. You know, and, and also the timeline through till the October 14th deadline seems long and then October 14 to November 7 when we first discussed it also seems really long you say, you know, you see, you say we were receiving at October 19 and not discussing it on November 7. That's three weeks that seems like a really long delay again between when the Council gets this compilation and when we first discuss at a meeting his self evaluation. It's out there for three weeks before we discuss it that also seems a really long time. I would like to see the timeline condensed. You know, not started at least no earlier than October. Even if we keep that November 7 self evaluation discussing date. And then I still don't think we need to meet. We need three meetings is what it says, you know, you've sort of got us doing this at four meetings right and I've argued this in the past, that meeting on December 22, where we vote the vote. I feel like we should be able to vote the vote on the fit, even if we have to come back from executive session to do so late. Yeah, I just like to see us condense it a little bit more. I don't know whether we can do the goals on December 5 to it depends on how much I think the Council likes, or doesn't like, however, to them right you know that that might need another date but I'd like to see us. You know, we, we put the press release out on the fifth and then we wait. Oh, a whole lot you know that just again doesn't sit right with me to wait that vote an extra two two and a half weeks so you know Mandy Joe I'm really glad you've said this because when I was looking at this and then I stood back from it. After I sent it. I said to myself, you know, I really want to push this further so if we could do everything so that we actually have our first discussion are. Well, let me look at that. Let me pull this up again. Okay. Hold on. Let me click the wrong button, no surprise. If we could do this, so that all the responses are due back in a period of two at the most three weeks. That means that it's possible. You know, my recommendation would be give the public two weeks and no more than two weeks give the staff weeks and no more than two weeks. I would also say once we've got it distributed to us, we get no more than two weeks we don't need three. We have the instrument to start typing things up before we get other things. But you know, like, I would, I feel for Paul, you know in this schedule he's out there from September to the end of December. It doesn't seem. I would try to condense it. I don't know if we can condense it enough so that we would have our reading on October. 17. But if we could, that would be great. I just don't know if we can. But um, that's not what I'm saying is the reading on the November 7 is fine with me, but condense everything before that up. I totally and then you also picked up on something else I'm looking at, and that is, this is just way too long. Yeah. And so when we finish after this time. And I think that's a good point. And so in this period, We could actually go into executive session that night. If there's enough agreement. If not, We actually could do it all and come back out of excess executive session like you suggested. I would say no more than three meetings. I think you're, you know, looking at this briefly November 7 for reading the self evaluation. I think that's a decision that you have to make in discussion. I don't know whether you can go into executive session. I think that's a decision you'd have to make once you see counselor evaluations. You know, whether they're all on the same page or not, right. But no, you know, and then finalize everything on the fifth. Yeah, I, I, I'm totally on board. Totally. I will work on a revised schedule based on that input. And get it back to you. I don't, does GOL meet again before the 12th, you don't. Before the 12th, let's see, we meet again on the 14th. Yeah. Okay. Well, I mean, can I just accept the fact that you've given me this feedback and you will trust me to make these adjustments. Yes, absolutely. Okay. I don't know if it leaves anyone else. Are there other comments or questions. Lynn, do you, how do you plan on. Not training, but giving some orientation to the other count to the other newer counselors, I guess, and a review for the council is not going to happen at our next meeting. Yeah. Okay. Well, and, and it's, it's also an opportunity for counselors who have continued to do exactly what Mandy Joe just did, which was provide some feedback. But yeah, we would introduce the whole thing. And then I try to use emails during the time where I say, you know, do not reply all to just keep counselors going and then if they have any additional questions. Then they can get back to me. And I can talk with them individually. I will, I just want for those of you that are new. This is the most thorough evaluation of any city or town in Massachusetts. I actually personally feel as ownerists, but I have not yet. And to be honest, we inherited most of this process from the select board. I am with love for GOL or, and that would be the right committee to explore other ways. And I will tell you, for example, the school committee does one for the superintendent, he basically has four or five goals maximum. And they don't seek input from everybody else. And one of the things that concerns me the most when people use the input from the other parties they provide input is they may draw from one or two remarks. But it's not a statistical sample. There's no content analysis that's done of those remarks. Once in a while you'll see a theme, but largely you'll see a theme on a certain issue that might be very in the news right now. Or you might see an issue from a certain department of the, of the town. I do have one follow up or two follow ups. So you just said a department of the town. You mentioned earlier that the staff or that the HR director, how did some other ideas about how things should be done. What, what was the. She never all she said was as we did the evaluation. Last year she said, I hope we get a chance to relook at this and that didn't happen. We never got into it. Yeah. And the other thing was, you made this video last year I remember seeing as a member of the public. Is that I thought it was really cool. And I'm wondering, is that okay to share on social media like, are we trying to avoid absolutely people should use social media their newsletters. I mean, we put out press releases we use engage Amherst. And, frankly, it didn't make a big difference, but please, we'll do better this particularly if we're only giving people two weeks. Okay. Yeah, yeah. All right. Thank you. Any other questions for Lynn. Comments. Oh, thank you. Thanks for that. Yeah. Bye bye. All right. Okay, so I think let's just. Oh, you know, Athena. I did not get minutes yet. What did I put on the agenda? Let me just see. Did we end up adding minutes. There's August 17 on the agenda. Okay. We don't have yet. So we'll have to. Oh, please go ahead. Okay. So was Angela with you that day? She actually started the meeting and then left. So I think the, I think there was a thought that you would do the minutes off of a recording. Okay, I'm sorry, I'll, I'll follow up and get this into you. Okay, great. So let's go ahead and do the proclamation that we have. I'm going to make sure I have all of the sponsors in order here. I don't know whether I, let me see if I can pull up a clean copy. I had to download a. PDF version from the website because you had posted one in. Pages or something. Word. So I can pull up a PDF. I can also pull up a PDF. I can also pull up last year's because that's the one I went to, because there were changes to last year's that weren't reflected in this year's in the one that was on the website in our packet. Do you want me to send you right now via email? I think what happened is when I open it up on my non-council laptop, it's a Mac and it just, but if I forward you this, you should be able to get it. I could do that. Or I can just open up last year's and show you the changes that we would make to this year's because those changes weren't reflected in what you posted on the packet. Oh, I see. So the one that I got from Lynn didn't have the changes. Is that what? Currently is not what we passed last year. Got it. Okay. Let's do that. That makes sense. So, and we have. Counselor Rooney, counselor Pam. I'm just checking. I don't want to miss anyone. And Lynn. Lynn was also. Yeah, give me a second to at least say something correctly. So it looks. Okay. Sure. Patience with me as I modify some stuff. This is what was passed last year. So one thing needs to change down. Here. Then we have to look at the dates. So. This was last year's the, from what was posted on the website. In our packet. This is the biggest change. Although the voted this day. Lynn had an old version of how we do that. But. What was in the packet just had declaring Puerto Rican heritage. Day. But we added the, if we want to hoist, if we want to raise a flag, we have to put it in the proclamation and we always tend to raise the flag. So the big change from last. From what was in the packet to what we actually passed last year is the packet one did not include the flag raising. Last year's did. I would propose that we include the flag raising in this year's event. So we have to look at the appropriate dates for the flag raising. Okay. And, and we should do that with. So there, it looks like. Just check my. Dr. Marta Guavara and others at the. Arps. Sponsor this event, which is scheduled for nine 23, 2022. Okay. Okay. This came from Jennifer Moisten. Yeah. So we normally raise the flag at that event. Okay. I think, and then it stays raised for a certain amount of time. 23rd to 29 would be exactly seven days. Okay. So who were this council sponsors again? No, we have Pam Rooney. Dorothy Pam. And Lynn. I'm just double triple checking that. That's all I, that's all I have here. I have a question. Please. And I've never thought of it before. So I, or I would have done some looking up. What happened. From the encounter of Columbus with the. I know Indians and the colonization by D Leon. And after where they. What did we do to them? And whether or not that should be reflected here. But I literally just thought of that and I haven't researched it. Do you want to me to make a note? I don't know if we, for this one have an opportunity to research it and make that change in time. I don't know. I don't know. There's also, I think. This seems like we should add. Dr. Marta. Quavera as it does. It says Dr. Marta Quavera and others at the ARPS sponsor this event. So I don't know that they're sponsors of the proclamation necessarily. But. Go ahead, please. I'm so sorry, Michelle. I'm sorry. No, it's okay. But I feel like there's some. Strength or something important. For they're not necessarily be being community sponsors. And since they haven't claimed that title there, they're creating an event. I would rather see it come just from counselors. But I open, I don't whatever the group decides. And they should be asked if they want to sponsor it, not just assumed. And I take some responsibility for that because I received this in the flurry of a lot of other stuff. And I probably, I didn't get. Any contact information for Dr. Quavera. To reach out to her. So it, I don't, it seems to me like she was more, or he was more scheduling the event or they were more scheduling the event. So. But maybe they are a good person to ask your question to Pat. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know just in general. Yeah. I mean, it's, it is a period of time where the famous quote from Columbus. About how strong. In stature and everything than indigenous people were, and they would make good slaves. That was said in his diaries. So. Jennifer, I saw that your hand was up. No, I was just asking in the past. So. Do you have any community sponsors. For this proclamation. So. I think what, what Pat and Michelle are saying is accurate. We've had for a long time at Puerto Rico, a Puerto Rican heritage day celebration. And the select board regularly did a proclamation to go along with that celebration. The celebration has generally been run through. The public schools. And now the common on taste. Is really involved in that as far as I know. So, you know, it's sort of been a symbiotic. I would say thing. I don't know. Whether the, this has been this proclamation, I think it's basically been going on for a while. I don't know whether the origination for the proclamation came at the request of. You know, the schools and the organizers of the events or whether the events were organized and people on the select board said, we should do a proclamation. Because of that. Like, I, I don't know that, but, but I think they've been going sort of together for a while. And this language is kind of leftover from the select board. Yeah. The only thing we've added recently was this last whereas the recovering. We added right after the hurricane. I mean, that would have been about the first year we were a council doing this. Yeah. And this is sometimes where community sponsor can help to add richness to a proclamation or information that we might not be aware of as a council. So in retrospect, I probably could have invited. Dr. If anyone has strong feelings that I should reach out to them. Before this goes to the council. I'm happy to do that. And we can. Make a motion that allows for. Additions or just a review. So any comments. My comment would be, we've, you know, sort of, we've been using this one for a while. Let's just keep using this one. We haven't heard complaints. And then potentially, if you can find some time or some, if some of us could find some time while we're at the celebration event, maybe to, you know, talk to Dr. Rivera and see if. If there would like to be changes. Aim for next year, but. Let them plan their event this year. I'm sure they're quite with the start of school and I think that would be a good idea. I think that might not be something they want to work on and focus on right now, but let's talk to them maybe at the event would be my suggestion. That works for me. If anyone else has any. Comments. Okay. All right. Do we want to go line by line? Or do you feel Mandy that. Given. It's already been reviewed just last year. I'm just going to go ahead and make a motion. It depends on whether anyone else wants changes. Jennifer. No, I'm comfortable if it's this same language as last year. Okay. I'm just going to take one more quick look and then. We can go ahead. All right. Pat. Yeah. I just did a quick look. At Wikipedia. And then figure out a way to talk about. In that land about the strength of. A culture that found a way to survive. But. Hold on. After a brief period of coexistence. Relations between the newcomers and the natives deteriorated. Spaniards remove men from villages to work in gold mines and colonial plantations. Spaniards. Spaniards. Spaniards. This kept the Tino from planning the crops that had fed them for centuries. They began to starve. Many thousands fell prey to smallpox, measles and other European diseases. For which they had no immunity. Some committed suicide to avoid subjugation. Hundreds fell in fighting with the Spaniards while untold numbers fled to remote regions beyond colonial control. When they were killed. When they were put down, it says, given the dramatic collapse of the indigenous society. And one might be tempted to declare the Tino. Extinct. However, there are many alive today who identify. So somehow or other. I don't. I don't particularly like the white washed line. And that feel, feel strongly, but I'm not sure how to. strength of the Taino people that they found ways to survive even though they were brutalized. Because this is a proclamation celebrating the strengths of the people in Puerto Rico. Jennifer? Yeah, no, I see. I mean, the word colonized in the second is, yeah. I mean, it wasn't pretty what happened between 1493 and 1508 just by that word is that's never something that is, I don't think it's usually a bloodless process. So I don't know how we right. And it began with Columbus. It didn't I mean, the final colonization happened with De Leon, but I don't know. Pat, are you what I'm hearing you say is you want to uplift the Puerto Rican people in some way? Well, the Taino people were the original and who have integrated and it's to save their society barely, but also integrated by marrying their colonizers. And so I'm not sure how to do this, but I don't know. I'm getting tired of how much whitewashing we do. Yeah. Yeah. And what I was thinking sort of along those lines is depending on who is involved in a particular proclamation, more or less information is in there. So like in certain proclamations, I know where we've had a lot of community sponsors, there's like all of this really rich information that's enlightening and then there's sort of the tension of keeping it at one page. And this is a very, I guess, a more basic proclamation than some of the others. I mean, I voted for it in the past. So I don't want to stand in the way of it moving forward. But I don't know. My recommendation is that we move forward with it as it is and we make a note, all of us, that we'd like to see this proclamation be expanded and that we consult with members in the community that might help us to do that and enrich in it. As Mandy pointed out during the event, if we'll be there having a conversation about that, instead of trying to add something right now. But if, Pat, if you really feel strongly about it, we can stay here and work on some language. No, I think we can go forward. We don't have the sponsors here. So we, well, yeah, we don't have the sponsors here. So we can't change because I'm talking about substantive changes. Yeah. OK. All right. Would someone like to make a motion then? I can make a motion, but you can. OK. Oh, go ahead, Mandy. I'll second it. I moved to declare the 2022 Puerto Rican Heritage Day proclamation clear, consistent and actionable as amended. Second. And we'll start with you, Jennifer. Um, I, although I respect Pat's, I think that was a good suggestion for next time. Mandy. I. Pat. I'm going to abstain, which I don't. I think I've only ever done once before. OK. You have to vote, Michelle. OK, I'm voting yes, but I am also just want to pause and say. I feel like your abstention, Pat, which I completely understand why you did it could be resolved and should be resolved and I'm comfortable having it working on it, getting community input and and changing it for next year. I don't want to hold it up. OK. So does this mean, though, Mandy, that this will not be able to be on the consent agenda for approval? Oh, we have a majority. Oh, I thought if there was one. Abstentions only knows go against it. It's still a unanimous vote, even though there was an abstention. OK. All right, great. All right. Thanks, Pat. And I'm making a note of that also in my GOL notes for however it turns over for next session. All right. So let's I'm just going to pull up the agenda here. So we have three bylaws to review. We have bylaw three point three nine street numbering of houses, bylaw three point four oh snow and ice and bylaw three point two two discharging of firearms. I'd like us to start with discharging of firearms. We talked about it in our last meeting. And since then, I did do some research that I wanted to share with you all. There were many. Would you pull up the the this is going to be tough because I also wanted to pull something up. And have an opportunity to look at what I put in the packet. About this, Mandy, you did OK. Jennifer Pat, did you have an opportunity to look? I apologize, I did not. OK, so maybe if you, Mandy, would you mind pulling that packet item up? So I think the question that we were debating last time was whether or not shotguns should be exempted in section one of the bylaw. And I think Mandy raised some really good concerns. And in fact, after she raised them, I was feeling similarly. And then. What occurred is I actually saw a news flash about a mass shooting that occurred this past week in which a shotgun was used. And so I was like, you know, let me do a little bit of research and try to understand what a shotgun is. And what I found is that. Sort of the differentiation between a hunting gun, a gun that we might use to hunt and a shotgun, essentially, that we would use to hunt and a shotgun that can be added to to create an assault weapon. Um, so there's no in our bylaw shotgun is shotgun. OK, so whether it's being used to hunt or whether it's having. And if you look down here at number three, under assault weapons, you see what happens is as a shotgun can be converted to something that's semi automatic. It adding any one of these things like the telescoping stock, a pistol grip, a fixed magazine, these items, a shotgun with revolving cylinder. So any of those types of shotguns are considered assault weapons. And in fact, this week, there were two mass shootings in which shotguns that had been made that were semi automatic have been used in mass shootings. And to Mandy's point last week or last time we talked about this. The exemption based on the state law, we're talking about shooting beyond. What was it? Five hundred, Mandy, five hundred something. Yards, I forget feet. I don't know. Feet. So we're talking about using that shotgun. Exempting it to be used over that five hundred feet. So in my mind, understanding that a shotgun can absolutely be used as an assault weapon and is actually being used by people who are creating violent crimes as an assault weapon. I began to look at it differently. I don't know if you can click on this link type of guns. Is it a clickable? It was supposed to be clickable, but you might have to copy and paste it, Mandy, if you don't mind. And by the way, this piece up here came from Wikipedia. It's the Massachusetts, how Massachusetts defines assault weapons, assault weapons, basically. And if Mandy can get that link going, then we'll be able to just quickly look at. OK. So if you scroll down where it's highlighted, I think it's highlighted. So semi automatic weapons are typically pistols, rifles and shotguns. So the point that I'm trying to make here is that a shotgun can be used as an assault weapon and is being used as an assault weapon. And if we want to include it as an exemption, I want to have some language in there that differentiates it from being a semi automatic assault weapon. And so that's, yeah, please, Jennifer. So is that it becomes semi automatic when those attachments are added? So we can maybe put something but a shotgun with, I don't know if we can say, but these we do not allow shotguns if they've been retrofitted in the following way, something like that. Or if they're considered under state law to be an assault weapon, I think it's something like like rely on the state law. I saw Mandy and then Pat. Pat can go first. Now, I was just going to say it could change. You could do that to shotguns where you're allowing them unmodified shotguns. Unmodified, yeah. Mandy, as soon as they're modified, they're assault weapons. Yeah, it basically those modifications come right from the state law and that's what makes them considered assault weapons. Exactly. Mandy. So the original reason we were looking at this bylaw and we're tasked with looking at it was to see if there was a conflict between fouling peace and I think fouling peace and shotgun, right? Which we determined is not a conflict, that there's no conflict in this bylaw related to those at all. I am extremely concerned with changing anything in this bylaw without any legal review. The jurisprudence around any type of regulation related to firearms is so nuanced and so precarious in terms of opening up to lawsuits that I wouldn't want to touch any of this without KP law saying we're not violating federal law or state law with whatever we're doing. We haven't heard of a problem with the language we've got so I'm still not sure what we're trying to fix because state law, I don't know whether state law actually bans assault weapons, but if it does, what we're doing has no bearing on that. We can't unban something that state law bans. We can only go more strict. So if they've already banned it, we don't have to worry about it and we don't have to do anything here. And so I think we're stepping into a quagmire that we don't know what we're stepping into. The more we talk about this and the more we potentially try to amend something that our police chief hasn't said is a problem that they've got state laws to deal with. And so at this point, I'm not sure I can support changing anything without talking to an attorney that knows this law because we don't and we don't know what is possible or not possible and what would we would be opening the town up to lawsuit wise if we attempted to change anything. OK, so Mandy, I'm hearing you say that you'd like to have the bylaw reviewed by KP law and the suggestions that some of us or that at least I am making. I don't want to speak for anyone else reviewed by KP law. I will say that Chief Livingstone, when I told him that we were considering removing this and asked him whether paintball guns were air guns or not, he didn't say, please don't remove this. He didn't. He said, actually, you're good there. Those were his words. You're good there because they're not. So I just meaning paintball guns are not considered air guns. So you're good there. I would have thought if he felt strongly. And again, you know, he may not know the nuances of the law in that regard, too, with what you're talking about. But I would have thought that if he felt strongly about it, he would have said something different than what he did say. So I'll just add that, Jennifer. And then Mandy, is your hand still raised from. Yeah, you mischaracterized in a little bit what I'm saying. So I wasn't clear enough. And it's not your fault. I wasn't clear enough. I don't think we have the authority given to us under the referral that we have to even be discussing changes like this is what I'm saying. We've already discussed what was referred to us. And if there are more desired changes, I'd want to hear from the council to see before we go for any type of legal review, whether the council even has the desire to wade into what I consider a huge quagmire, despite the fact that Amherst is very liberal. This is a huge quagmire, I think, if we're going into this. And I want to know that the council wants us to wade into that when we haven't been told that we need to be weighing into it before we even spend town attorney money asking about it. OK, I'm going to go to Jennifer. But then if we could pull up our charge, I would really appreciate that. I'd like for us to review our charge briefly. Go ahead, Jennifer. Um, I agree with Mandy, Joe, that we need town counsel, you know, of pay-per-law some expertise if we are going to have this conversation. And I feel this way, you know, not infrequently that I'm weighing in on something I have no expertise in. And it doesn't. And this is certainly one I've like, I don't know that I've ever I've never been near a gun. I mean, this is just so I have my personal feelings, but I have no business without some expertise, frankly, to probably be technically reviewing this. So I don't know. I mean, so I if this is something that is appropriate for us, given the town council to weigh in on firearms, I don't have a problem with that. But I do think we need some professional staff expertise in the room with us when we're having a conversation. I agree with that. OK, just, you know, one thing to keep in mind and I hear what both you, Jennifer and Mandy are saying. The way that I'm thinking about this is that we are the legislative leaders of the community. And so if we have to pull in other folks, whether it be technical expertise in the legal realm or chief living stone or anyone else for that matter, I'm completely comfortable with doing that. But I don't think it should be a reason not to look at it being I think we should take the time. And I asked Mandy to pull up the charge because I did just want to review. I think it is our duty as GOL committee or it is within our purview to review bylaws. I understand that there was a review committee that made certain recommendations a couple years ago, but that doesn't mean those were the only recommendations that could be made or changed. And it also doesn't mean that things haven't changed since then. That would give more weight to this particular bylaw that maybe that lens wasn't there when it was reviewed a couple years ago. So I don't know if there's a difference in opinion here, but from my estimation, it we are for form content and organization. And so I would be comfortable with bringing in other people. But let's hear from Mandy. I see that her hands up. Maybe there's a solution to all. Yeah, I mean, I guess I guess disagree with what you're reading of the charge, Michelle. Proposed for action by the council for form content and organization to assure they are clear, consistent and actionable. What you're proposing is a content change, not for clear, consistent and consistency and action ability, but for actual substantive matters that has not been proposed to the council. It's been proposed to a subcommittee of the council. And that's where I'm now getting really concerned with this conversation, because, you know, when I want to change to a zoning bylaw as a sponsor, I have to go to the council first and get a review, get a referral to something. I feel like we've stepped out of that referral we got from the council for that one small area from the bylaw review committee to everything. And I didn't see the bylaw review. You know, the council's referral of the bylaw review committee concerns as a whole sale. Do whatever you want with all 15 of the bylaws they sent us. And that's, you know, that's why I say, I think before we do anything beyond what we were asked to by the council to look at, which would be a, you know, you know, what they asked us to look at my understanding. And I mean, maybe I understand what's wrong is, was there discrepancy between filing peace and shotgun and was this not consistent, right? We've determined that that's not the case. That's fine. The recommendation back would be on your referral X. But the recommendation back could say, but some of us want this other proposal. Will you refer that back to someone? I don't even know whether that substantive discussion would come to GOL or some other committee, but we don't as a council, we haven't ever just told in general told a committee, if you're a member of that committee, you can just go directly to that committee for any bylaw proposal substantive change and then get it, it still has to go through the council. And that's what I fear this conversation is sidestepping. And I don't think we have a right to go to our town attorney until we've had the appropriate referral. I absolutely agree, we have a right when we need an attorney's opinion on a referral we have to get that opinion, right? That's how we do our job. But until we've got that referral, I just don't, I don't see, I see us stepping away from our charge into something that if that's what the council wants us to do and step away from our charge that way, I wanna hear it from the council. Yeah, I really respect that. And I am thinking that it would be a good idea to talk to Lynn and just kind of explain what has transpired here as we're reviewing this and see how she might suggest we move forward because honestly, this is definitely like personal at this point. So I don't wanna do anything that because of my personal feeling about this and feeling like this is a real problem as it's written currently. If I have to go ahead and do the work, put the work in to write a memo and explain myself and why I think this bylaw needs to be referred for further review, I'm absolutely happy to do that. So we can uncouple that for now if that's what this committee feels would be best. I would ask that we give me a moment to talk to Lynn just so that we're not approving it right now as it is and then having to come back to it, but if there's a strong feeling otherwise. But I would like to wait and be able to have the opportunity to navigate this before we make a recommendation on it if everybody's okay with that. But yeah, Mandy, go ahead. So I just maybe we haven't been looking at our referral enough because I just pulled up the table of bylaws for identification and I'm gonna share it. Thank you. I was just very strident that it wasn't referred to us that way. But when you read this, clarify exemption of shotguns and air guns, bows and arrows, is it enough or not? Which I will now eat my words and say, Michelle, you may be absolutely right that then this discussion has been referred to us. So, I had thought it was just the difference. I was concentrating only on this part over here clarification between the difference of fouling peace and shotgun which we did clarify and said there was no change needed. But I think these two were already done because those are in there. So now it's just this one, shotguns, air guns should continue to be excluded from the provisions of the bylaws. So you are absolutely right. And I was completely wrong, Michelle. I'm just now that we looked this out. Which means my recommendation would be, we need to talk to an attorney. Okay. Yeah, absolutely. And if the committee has a sense, I could draft an email to KP law and copy the committee, whatever, or I don't know if that's open meeting law issue, but I could certainly copy Athena or something. I think you have to consult with Paul before you go to KP law. Yes, I will definitely do that first. I'll explain to him and Lynn what we've talked about and why we're asking for this particular review. And then we can take it from there if that sounds like a good plan to everyone. So, yeah. Is it enough or not seems to get to, I'm sorry. Well, that becomes the, I don't know whether this is a consultation that can be done through email versus having someone that knows gun laws at both the state and federal level come talk to us and be at our meeting. So I would almost recommend asking Paul if we can get someone from KP law to attend whatever meeting we're going to discuss this at because it's, I don't think it's a simple question because it's a lot of wording. And I think we have a lot of questions because we don't know much at all about firearms. And so, it might be more efficient to have them at a meeting. Okay. Do you think we should also invite chief to that meeting? Okay. All right. So I will try to arrange that and see when we can get that back on the schedule. And we, if it's okay, we can move on from this one then for now. All right. Yeah, that sounds good. Okay. Thank you. Thanks. So I received an email yesterday about bylaw 3.40. It is not in the packet yet. I haven't had a chance between when I received it and this morning to get it in the packet. Although Athena may have added it to the public packet. I did send it to her. So I wanted to give us an opportunity to take a look at that real quick. It was an email that was from Tracy Zafian. Let's see here. And I can, I'm sorry, did I pronounce that? Yeah, Tracy Zafian. And it's, let's see. I don't, I'm gonna, Athena, it's probably not in the public packet yet. I literally just sent it to you this morning. Is that correct? I'm just adding it now. Okay. I wonder if then we can each pull it up. So again, this is for review of bylaw 3.40, snow and ice. And Tracy provided some feedback to us. Before we read that though, given the lesson that we just learned or that at least, you know, that we just reviewed, maybe good idea to take a look at what we're, what our referral is on this particular bylaw first. So that we know if Tracy's feedback is part of our referral or if it is something different. So Mandy, if there we go, no, you're on it. Okay. Michelle, I added it to the packet, but for some reason when I'm converting it, I think it's part of Tracy's email that it's really narrow, so it's coming out like really small. So when you, if you pull up the PDF, it's, you just have to zoom in a lot. Sorry about that. Okay, perfect. Thank you. Okay. So, and this was also the one that we received and she includes this in her email, the list of places where the DPW takes care of snow and ice and that's also in the packet. Okay. So if everyone has had a chance to look at that, we can pull up Tracy's email. And once that's pulled up, if we just want to take a moment of recess to read it. Where is her email? Oh, I'm so sorry. I thought Mandy was pulling it up from the packet. I'm working on it. Yeah, I thought so. Sorry, sorry. I have to download it. Sorry, I have technology angst and worry, what can I say? I have a lot of patience while I get it big. You have my full patient response at right now. Since it was so tiny, I can't put it all on one page. Okay. So we'll have to page down when everyone's read this part. So we can just, yeah, take a moment to read it now. Can you scroll it up? Does everyone have a chance to read that? Yeah. Okay. So it's open for discussion then. And I think firstly, deciding what or understanding as a group, what we're being asked, what our charges in this particular case or what our referral has been. And then seeing where Tracy's comments fit in. Yeah, Jennifer. Well, this I guess that's back to the point Mandy Joe brought up with our discussion with that on firearms. So the referral was just for those streets that the DPW clear snow and ice and Tracy is suggesting that we broaden that, which I would agree, but do we have to go back to the council? I guess for referral, that seems a little bureaucratic, but we might have to do that. And one of the things that just shouts out at me is why is the police department involved here? I would never think of calling the police if there was a snow or ice issue on the street. I mean, I'd even call building a safety or DPW first, but the police seem to be, it seems to be a lot. And I guess that's something we have to look at as a town. Like I know a resident wrote to me about cars idling on the street. And there isn't anti idling, you know, law in Massachusetts. And when I asked the town manager, he said, oh, you have to call the police department. I was like, really? So there's, we've got to, I think we visit how often we call the police for things. Mandy. So I just want to respond to Jennifer's question. So the reason you call the police in this particular instance is because the police are the only people that can enforce criminally or non-criminal per the bylaw. When you look at the bylaw, the non-criminal disposition even, just writing a fine that is not like a criminal citation, just, you know, a fine is only enforced by police officers per the bylaw. But we could not change that. So that might be something again, you know, to change or anti idling. Again, you know, that idling, you have to remember state law is state law. And the only individuals who can write tickets for state laws are people authorized by the state to do so. And that is police officers. And so anti idling is a state law. And, you know, we can't change that. You know, we can't just say some, you know, that you have to think about, you know, no matter what we want, that's those violations are state law statute violations. And that's written by police officers or called by a grand jury or, you know, like... Yeah, even though by the time you call the police, the idling's gone, but that's the side of it. But that's why there are so many things that are police because our state laws have, that's who the state law has said, does it and enforces it. But in this one... What number is this a local in terms of Snow and Ice? Is that a local? Snow and Ice is a local by-law, so we could have non-criminal disposition enforced by someone other than police officers. We pick who writes the non-criminal fines. So what I would say is, yes, it seems a little bit tedious, but those referrals, at least with this council, basically going through on consent and by the next meeting we'll have that referral, right? If we make a recommendation that the town council refers Snow and Ice to us for substantive changes, it's gonna go on consent and it's likely going to pass, right? So it's a little bit tedious, but it keeps that train of, why are we doing this intact, right? Which I do actually think is fairly important. The train of people can follow, well, why did we come up with that? You know, we didn't just do it on our own or at the request of one person. We had the council say, hey, that's important. And seven councillors said, do it instead of just potentially one or two. And I think that train keeping that is important. So I would say we make the recommendation to the council to, I've just been reading over this by-law. You know, it probably could use some change, right? On things, but I think we just make the vote and make the recommendation that the council refer this by-law to us for full review, you know, not just the limited review that we had. And some of the explanation can be things like, who enforces, right? You know, cause I have done exactly what Tracy has done, not known who to call, called and gotten the run around. Oh no, it's DPW, no, it's the police, no, it's this. And no one, nothing seems to happen. So yeah. I wonder if the police even, I mean, the question about how many calls do they get on this? I thought that was really interesting. Like, you know, so I agree. I think that Mandy's recommendation for how to move forward with this is great. And so we could, Mandy, do you want to make a motion? And we, unless there's further discussion, Pat or Jennifer, if you had other pieces to add to that. Okay. Just along the same lines, I just, I would like to ask the committee, one of the things that I was going to try to do for us is put together a list of the bylaws where the police is the non-priminal in particular and just make a really clean, clear list for us to look at, maybe with some comments so that we could come and go through those and decide, you know, I think Mandy's absolutely right. If it's a state law, there's nothing we can do that, you know, but if it's a local, we can certainly try to look at them at least. Yes, Jennifer. Yeah, and I think the police department would appreciate that. I'm sure they don't want to be called about snow and ice. Yeah. It sounds like the other thing that really struck me from Tracy's email was the psychological impact that that list, like, or that the actions that are taken because of that list have on people and whether they assume the town's doing it. You know, if you're a new person, you just moved into a neighborhood, you see the town clear at once, you may not even know that it's your responsibility, but you've been given that, you know, extra help or whatever, you know. All right, Mandy, do you want to make a motion on that? Sure, I moved to recommend the town council refer general bylaw 3.40, snow and ice to the governance organization and the legislation committee for substantive review and recommendation on potential changes, revisions, not changes, revisions. Second. Great. Pat? Aye. I'm an aye. Jennifer? Aye. Mandy? Aye. All right, great. All right, excellent. So the last bylaw that we had on here to review was bylaw 3.39 street numbering of houses. And if we could start in the same way by looking at what the referral was for this one. Wow, there's a lot in this one. You'll see why when I pull up the bylaw. Yeah. It's one sentence. Okay, yeah. There it is. Oh wow, big bylaw 3.39. That's why there's a lot in there. Jennifer? Minor question. So it said whether it can just allow numerals. Does that mean, I've often wondered this, if somebody takes a single family house and divides it into two units and you call 132A and 132B. So is that, is that what kind of it's referring to? I've always wondered if that's legal or the old one just did that. So I think what it's referring to is instead of putting the Arabic numeral 3, 2 up, that they wrote out the words 32 in cursive script. And should allow that instead of the Arabic numerals. So you have to be able to read the cursive. Is doing something A and B part of what could be taken up here? I mean, again, I don't know. Maybe I'm getting off it, but is that, if somebody puts up 32A and 32B, is that something they can just do on their own or are they supposed to get some legal or town authority to do approval to do that? I think if they're building a separate building, a separate dwelling and calling it 32A, 32B, that's one thing. But if I were to divide my house into two apartments, then I would have two mailboxes if I didn't wanna get my tenants mail. And one of them would be 21 Ward Street. The other one would be 21A Ward Street. I don't, there's not, you don't need legal permission, I don't think to do that. A town permission, you can just do that. Yeah, I mean, if you, but you need town, the numbering thing is totally, it talks about irregularity in the bylaw thing. That's not gonna change because if you go down the street, any street in Amherst, you'll see places where it says 21 and then 33. Oh yeah. If there's land in between, there's reason for that, but you can also have 21 and 33 right next to each other without which I have on my street. And there's no way that it's gonna be filled in from 22 or 23 on the odd side to 33. So I think that what this needs to focus on is what, how do we guarantee visibility for safety? And that's the reason of use, to use Arabic numerals, not Roman numerals, not something else or necessarily script, although that you can have that, but somewhere police fire and people who are trying to find you need to just see the numbers. I think this is a lot simpler change than I don't think there is a lot that has to be added to this unless we're gonna have an inspection on sale about street numbers. And that just seems to me to be frivolous. Mandy. Yeah, I'm with Pat on this. I think we can modify this. Maybe one of us can try in the next two weeks, come up with some additional language to put in the packet or something that deals with the numerals, the Arabic numerals versus written out that we require sort of Arabic numerals. You can write it out too, but you have to have the numerals at a minimum. Maybe consider a different size or something. I don't know whether I think it was two and a half inches or something in there. That seems really tiny for something set back and all. Like yet some houses are right on the street, others are set back, right? And so I don't know how we would deal with that, but the homeowners versus just all buildings, you know, I sometimes find it, if we're not requiring, you know, I guess commercial buildings sometimes have big signs and maybe that's why we didn't think about it, but sometimes it's really frustrating to find the commercial building with a specific number on it because they don't put their numbers on. And so I would think of instead of just homeowners shall like all buildings shall and things like that. And I think- All residential and commercial buildings should blah, blah. That would be kind of- Yeah, something like that. I would like to see that changed because I have been frustrated in the past, maybe not in Amherst, but in places where I'm not familiar with like, what is that number? You know, maybe think about mailboxes too, instead of just the buildings for some, I don't know. But I think we can do it fairly without getting too complicated. There's got to be a way to do it. I also don't think it necessarily has to be on the building. I mean, one of the good things recently is that there are little red flag addresses now on a lot of Amherst properties. They're on the sidewalk where the house is or the residence is. Why does it necessarily then have to be on the house? It has to be clearly and visible. And yeah, I think we can- So I'm just going to pause us for a moment because we have somebody in the audience. I believe that the phone number was here before it left and they're back. So I want to call for public comment just in case. So I'm just going to pause us for, oh, hang on. And they're gone again. So I called for public comment. I can just quickly say- Do whatever you have to do. Yeah, real quick, public comments a matter. I mean, no one's here now, but basically, I was about to call public comment to say that residents are welcome to express their views for one to three minutes at the discretion of the chair and based on the number of people who want to speak, we will not engage in a dialogue or comment on a matter raised. And if I do see that number come back, I will once again make that call. Okay, go on. Sorry. Pat, can I clarify? You just said about the red, I think we are, are you talking about the stakes that go into the ground with the- Yeah, I've seen that a lot of residents is now that there is a stake with the same, but what I have is letters on my mailbox that have gradually faded for the 25 years that we've been here. So this conversation is making me realize I need to renew them, but they're about this big. They're clear on my mailbox. I don't think- I'm just wondering if there's a difference between something that's permanently affixed and something that could by a snow plow get pushed over or like if it's to stake in the ground for example- Yeah, I hear you about that. Yeah, that's interesting. You know, the snow can like cover it, even sometimes we get a bad enough storm. So I want to kind of ride around and do what you did, Pat, notice what the different ways that people are using street numbering personally and how that, you know, so to answer your question, Jennifer, on my property, my house is 374A and then I have a cabin on my property that is 374B. That was like that when I bought it. So I don't know if that was done, you know, legally. Formally or informally. Yeah, exactly. Thanks for saying it like that. Yeah. Pat, did you raise your hand? No, I didn't know. So it sounds like what Mandy suggested is that someone, and maybe Mandy's and she suggested it. Pat was taking notes. So I suggested- That's not going to do jack shit. That has got so much on her plate, she does not know what to do. Believe it or not. I think I can tell me something. Mandy, we can do it together. Oh, we can't say we're doing it together, Pat. Wilson, I'll come up with something. Yeah, okay. That would be great. So I'll put this on the packet or on the agenda for our next meeting. And hopefully we'll have some additional language. The one other question I had on this is are there any other folks that we should be talking to about this that you could Mandy touch base with? Well, no, I wonder if they still could email maybe the fire chief, police chief. They've already been talked to for this. Have they? I wonder about, you know, we have a lot of flaglots, especially in my neighborhood and all. And so putting the number on the house does nothing for the flaglot, right? You can't even see the house from the street, right? And so I wonder if there might be suggestions from police or fire or crests as to other ways, you know, building and mailboxes, mailboxes at the street. You know, like are there suggestions about that? Or suggestions for height depending on X, Y, Z, I don't know, because that's where I'm at a loss. I mean, I can write some language, but do they have some suggestions for what would help them find the houses when they get a call and find the businesses when they get a call? Sure, yeah. So actually we had an incident on Saturday night. I have a really long driveway. You could never see my house from anywhere. And so our address is affixed onto a tree at the end of the driveway. And we had an incident where a biker got into an accident and the ambulance had to come. And I believe that crests may have responded too, which is interesting, but I'm not sure. But it was kind of exciting for the possibility. And anyway, I thought about that very thing. Like if I hadn't had, because that biker needed to call I think to get help and they may not, if they would have had to go up the driveway or whatever. So I did check in with Chief Livingstone about this and he didn't really have anything to say, but I think checking with EMT and like the fire department would be good to talk to them about that. So I'll do that. And then I'll send the information over to you. Okay, thanks. All right. Anything else on this one? Okay. So it's 10 41 and I have to get to my dentist for 11. So I think it's probably best for us to just review future agenda items, make sure that our agenda for next time is... Mandy, you said last time that the matrix or the rubric could be pushed off. Are you still feeling that way? Yeah, okay. So we don't need to deal with that. And then in terms of the town manager review, was there anything that on that timeline that we need to do? There's nothing that we need to do. Is there? We have to do something with goals. And so maybe a discussion about, do we wanna propose something to the council before the council has had a brief discussion about any changes or do we wanna get on the agenda a brief discussion of changes from the council and then put it on our agenda to make the big proposal? So I think that's just something, Michelle, you might wanna think about. I think last year, Pat, we had the council do a short discussion, right? And then GOL came in with the changes. Yeah. That's right. So that would mean asking Lynn to place it on to the town council agenda for a brief discussion and then we would take it up at a meeting after that. Probably the October, the first October meeting would be the one that would give us the least amount of crunch in GOL's meeting times is what I would say. Yeah, yeah. Okay. I'm just... So the other thing is I am hoping to and I'm hoping to draft a proclamation for suicide prevention week. I don't believe that we have one and it is in September. So I'd have to basically get it for our next meeting in time, I think to even, I don't even know if it would be able to be approved. What is our next council meeting? September plus the 19th. The council meeting is the 12th. Oh, but we have one the 19th again. Is that something? Oh, so if we, so I'm, so if we can, I can get this to the here by the 14th. We still be able to get it to the council. Okay. Any other agenda items other than I'm working on a work plan for the equity lens review process and a proposal. And so I am working on those things and we'll put them in the packet for our next meeting. Are there any, please? I just wonder if that includes a meeting collaborating with DEI. Absolutely. Yes. Exactly. Anything else? Any other items that we know about? Okay. All right. Well, if there aren't any other, there's no one else in the attendees. And if there aren't any other member reports or anything else to add, then I will adjourn the meeting at 1044. And we'll see. All right. Great meeting. Thank you. Bye.