 Thanks for watching. It's not about today. I'm your host, Hamza Reffato-San for Think Tech Hawaii. Today's topic is about women's rights in Pakistan. Now, it's considered to be a topic which has been on the fringes for quite some time, but we've seen incidents of violence taking place within the country, which is a matter of concern. Pakistan has signed many protocols with regard to women's rights internationally as well, but the difference between structure and implementation is pretty glaring within the country. I think that we're going to be discussing today. I have with me Oxford graduate and former government officer, Ms Itradzara with me at this point in time. Ms Itradzara, thank you so much for joining me on the show. Thank you so much for having me, Hamza. Alright, so let's start off with a very basic question now. As a woman and a graduate from the University of Oxford, what do you think is a sole problem confronting women in Pakistan today? I would say that gender inequality is the sole problem and as we all know that gender inequality exists in Pakistan and what are the reasons behind that gender inequality, we also know that it's the patriarchal value system that exists in our society. So I would say that gender inequality is the sole problem that confronts women, which then results in multiple other problems like lack of access to education or employment discrimination and gender violence. Okay. So one of the main proponents of, you know, lack of discrimination against women is the audit march or the women's march in English. That has been going on for quite some time. Agitation is directed for greater women rights representation and protests against discrimination in Pakistan. And that has often been sent short as being an affront to the male based patriarchal value system in the country that you just rightly mentioned. Do you think that is a fair argument? I don't think so. That is a fair argument. We really need to understand what this audit march or this movement signifies. It's not an affront to men. It's not an affront to men's right. Basically, it's a social justice movement, which is advocating for the inclusion of women for the quality of rights, regardless of gender. So it's not an affront, I would say, you know, to the male based value system or men, but it is a social justice movement like any other political or social movement. So consider it that it is an attack on men is I think wrong. Okay. All right. So do you think that the audit has been successful in audit march has been successful rather in trying to make sure that they could have a meaningful impact of Pakistan society. Well, I wouldn't say that it is like as successful as it should be because we know that the prejudices against the stereotypical gender based rules are very strong in our society. So yes, it is making an impact. We are, you know, having discussions about very difficult topics in the mainstream media. So in that regard, I would say that it is being it is successful, but the pace of the change that is required. That is very still in our country. Okay, all right. So do you think would you attribute that to lack of, you know, you could say interest from the parliamentarians and the politicians with regard to the issue, because when we talk about legislation. It has been passed, you know, back when the people's party government was in power. You also saw legislation be passed when the PML government was in power as well. Not so much during the PTI, you know, timeframe, but do you think that legislation and lack of interest from the politicians is having a, you know, negative impact on, you know, movements such as the audit march and what they advocate for. You see, when we talk about lack of access or opportunity for women, so it encompasses all spheres of life. So yes, there is we have these reforms that like tries to ensure greater and greater political representation of women, but still it is not as much as it should be. And so a lot. I wouldn't say that it's the lack really lack of interest from the parliamentarians because we see that time and again different legislations have been introduced, you know, by different governments to work the more inclusive governance system more inclusive critical representation system. But it is, I think more, the problem is more towards the implementation side that how we are really implementing it, how we really understand when we talk about women quality, or when we talk about gender based violence when we talk about gender based stereotypes and roles so how we really understand it. So I would say that it is overall lack of awareness about these concepts towards feminism and gender equality that is resulting in the slow pace of I would say the women's inclusion movement or any other social movement that is aiming for more and more fear and just society. Okay, so I would agree towards that. Okay, okay, so when in Pakistan often face barriers on greater social inclusion with, you could say predefined roles and family systems that for example a woman has to stay in the household she cannot go out, find employment generate income for herself, and that is pretty defined based on the societal norms that have been governing this country for some time. So do you think that's a negative impact on social mobility number one. And do you think that that trend is also changing in the digital age because we're talking about social media. If violence does take place against women. All somebody has to do is just, you know, just make sure that they can go ahead with a photo or a video they can post it on Twitter and suddenly becomes a subject and topic of controversy. So do you think the trend is changing in the digital age. I would say that digital age, the technological information definitely has provided different avenues for women to raise their voice. And that is really happening but again how we really interpret you know these voices that is also important to understand so yes these platforms are providing platform access to women, you know to raise their voice to amplify their voices. So definitely, you know, we have to respond as a society or different, you know the institutional response to such problems that are being voiced that we have to really. So definitely, you know, these gender based rules are deeply entrenched in our society and although like you know with all the technological advancement. We're providing different platforms and new avenues for women to get access to different opportunities employment opportunities and you know generating income for their household. But at the same time, still if you see, you know, working women in Pakistan, like I myself am a professional woman, but still there is this expectation from women to, you know, contribute in an uneven way towards the household or domestic tasks. And that is, I would say another, you know, barrier for mainstreaming or the women inclusion or making women part of the main labor force. So that those gender based roles of stereotypes definitely are a big obstacle towards that. Okay, the second part of the question was the digital age social media. Do you think that, you know, violence against women cannot go unnoticed anymore because of the fact that you have Twitter, you have Facebook, you have Instagram. And suddenly if somebody posts a photo or posts a video, then you know it's all out in the open and it can generate a lot of controversy and nobody can go unaccounted for. Yes, I think these platforms is social media platforms are providing new, you know, ways that the different forms of oppression or discrimination that is happening against women, the voices can be raised, and they are being heard as well. Again, I would say despite all these technological advancements, the pace of the change that is required and the responsiveness of the state institutions towards, you know, these quoted incidents of violence or discrimination, that is not adequate still. Okay, okay. So let's talk about feminism in Pakistan we're talking about feminism. Many people refrain from defining the concept of because of the very fact that it is often considered to be sometimes a loaded term. This is not my view. It's the view of those who actually examined feminism as a concept. Sometimes people feel that feminism has different aspects. Are those advocating for feminism within the country elitist, as per se, and do you think that women from underprivileged backgrounds remain underrepresented, despite advocacy efforts? I don't agree. I don't agree with the notion that the feminism or the feminist movement is elitist. We need to understand here what do we really mean by feminism? As I mentioned earlier as well, the feminism basically is a social justice movement, which advocates towards more inclusive society, which advocates towards more equitable society, regardless of gender. And this is unfortunate and we all know that women are more marginalized in our society. So when we talk about equitable and just society, we have to really focus on the weakest segments of society. So first of all, we need to see feminism as a social justice movement, not as something, again, as an affront to men or men's right. So when if we advocate feminism, it means we are just advocating more equitable and just society equal opportunities for all the genders. I think we here I would like to mention the intersectional feminists theory as well. So when we talk about intersectional feminism, it means that this is the kind of feminism that is recognizing or that emphasizing on recognizing, you know, different forms of cooperation in each movement. So different people can have different experiences of operation and that that can be based on, you know, the different types of identity identities like based on religion based on race based on class or ability. So that if a woman belongs to so called elitist or privileged background that doesn't really mean that they cannot be oppressed. So one person can be oppressed and privileged at the same time as well. So just like, you know, giving title to this movement that it's an elitist movement is absolutely wrong. I think here I would really like to put like my own example as well. So I am coming myself from a very humble background. I am not like from so called privileged or so background myself. And I really try to objectively you know see at what this movement really is trying to emphasize. And I would also like to, you know, mention here that when we say that like somebody is speaking don't don't really say that who is speaking like we really need to focus on what is being said. So if the message is about inclusivity, if the message is about more equality for women. I don't think so it matters who is really speaking yet. And then whatever limited voices right now we have in our society, regardless where they are coming from. We really need to amplify because if they are talking about equality if they are talking about discrimination against women, we really need to hear that. Okay, so that basically punctures the latest argument. So let's talk about minorities such as Sikhs, Hindus and Christians. Do you think that women from these religious backgrounds specifically are disproportionately impacted by violence or targeted by violent groups? And are they subjected to trafficking and violence as compared to Muslim women in Pakistani society? Definitely most definitely I think the minorities in Pakistan in general and women especially they are more, I would say, oppressed and probably they experience even more, you know, different forms of oppression. So we know that you know when we add the religious prejudices to this gender based stereotypes. So this is a very very dangerous mix. And the minorities are already marginalized when you are a woman and you belong to minorities. So definitely a situation for you is not very good. And yes, women trafficking problem does exist in our society. And I think I would say that again generally women from coming from poor backgrounds are not very, who are not very economically well to do. They are definitely more prone to such incidents of violence, but religious minorities are more so. Okay, so when we talk about minority rights in general, you have seen the parliament and the legislature, if you want to call it, be more active in trying to make sure that minority rights are protected. Do you have the Hindu marriage bill? For example, that was actually passed in the assembly to try and make sure that you know Hindus can actually conduct their marriages based upon their own practices. And then obviously with the Katarpur Corridor being inaugurated by, you know, the former Prime Minister, there's been greater protection of ensuring that you know Sikhs within Pakistan and Sikhs coming from India are also given that access as well. And we've had other reforms as far as Christians are concerned. One interesting thing about Pakistan is that despite, you know, you could say isolated incidents of violence against minorities, unlike in India, you don't have the state sponsorship of such my, you know, such religious violence. For example, you have the BJP government in India, they're sanctioning Hindu vigilantes all across India and, you know, nobody wants to talk about it. When you do have incidents of violence take place in Pakistan, the state tends to react and react quite strongly as well. That's a very underrated aspect about, you know, Pakistan in general. But do you think that, you know, when we talk about violence against women from a specific religious community, it's more to do with molding societal, you could say, you know, you know, constructs with regard to women from different religions, rather than, you know, the legislature playing an important part. I would say that the definitely situation in Pakistan is very different than what is it in today in India, which is so called the biggest democracy in the world. And yes, you see that there's a state sponsored religious based violence against minorities there. And luckily, we don't have that. But at the same time, I think we really need to acknowledge that we really need many legal reforms at the legislative or constitutional level, you know, that ensure more protection for the minorities in Pakistan. And yes, whenever such incidents of discrimination isolated happen in Pakistan against minority states does take a strong action. But again, I wouldn't say that that is adequate. Because, you know, when we are talking about legal and institutional reforms, when we talk, we are talking about this month laying the institutional oppressive systems. So, I wouldn't say that the state in Pakistan is ideal as well, because in many aspects, I think there is an inaction on this on the part of the state. And it is not again, because of some ideological basis, mainly I would say that I would attribute again, you know, the general, the societal mindset we have words women in general and then this more religious aspect that you know, I would say that the state definitely protects more the rights of majority Muslims here as well. And the action that state should take in case of protecting minorities and their rights. But yes, I would agree with the statement that there is luckily not state sponsored any, you know, discrimination towards minority in Pakistan, but we still need many religious reforms here as well. Okay, so now I'm going to quote gender concerns international and they've said that women's disengagement from social political affairs leads to an unfair and unbalanced governance system. Is that a fair statement. If it is not, then why. So you are saying that if we disengage women from socio political aspects of governance from yes definitely women constitute half of the population, and their experiences matter their perspective on how the system should be governed based on their own individual experience definitely matter. So if you exclude half of the population from decision making, you know, system so definitely it is going to make the system heavily skewed in favor of one gender and, you know, leave behind the other. Okay, so 911 obviously was a momentous occasion in world history, and the situation in Afghanistan not only produced instability and terrorism but also women trafficking. And obviously Pakistan has been disproportionately affected by because we host the largest number of refugees in the world with with regard to Afghans. So this remains a problem in Pakistan even today as well. Where do you think the situation lies specifically with regard to women trafficking. In fact, I think, you know, the women trafficking incidents, you know, whenever there is some refugee crisis whenever there is more women get disproportionately affected. So yes that exists and these problems, I think can women trafficking if we you know generally talk about like we really need to address the root cause of like why women trafficking happen. We know that poverty, you know lack of access to education lack of awareness or weak law enforcement system they all result in, you know this huge problem that exists today in Pakistan as well. So yeah, the incidents I would, I agree that the incidents of women trafficking has increased because of that and Pakistan is affected, and we really need to focus on strengthening you know institutional response to tackle this huge issue at the moment. And if we take a look at the latest incident of the Greek boat migrant crisis of 2023. It's not only important you also have human trafficking, you know networks and this entire nexus which actually exists in Pakistan as well. Many of those who unfortunately died of agency were women. So what do you think the government needs to do as far as you know busting the human trafficking nexus within Pakistan is concerned. First of all, strengthening law enforcement creating more awareness about this issue among the masses that the dangers of trafficking that exists and improve of course like social economic, you know indicators. Overall, when we talk about like we know that poverty and awareness the result in such incidents so yes strengthening law enforcement and then addressing the root cause of all these problems this is very important. So, okay, so if we talk about, for example, women being disenfranchised, which has been a historical reality for many different countries all across the world that they weren't really given the right to vote in Pakistan. Obviously, you know, we're living in the 21st century women do have the right to vote, but you do see a lot of resistance as far as women being, you know, partaking in electoral processes is concerned, especially in the tribal areas or in the rural areas of sin that are also in Punjab. So, do you think that women's increased electoral participation can also result in a positive impact on women's rights. Definitely. Again, we need to amplify and the voices of women. But again, when we talk about that yes we have this electoral reform women have right to vote but how that right is being exercised to understand that is also very important. We have like, you know, the constitutionally insured political representation at each forum in the government system, and then women are definitely promoted whenever their elections are happening specially targeted, you know, movements are introduced by the government and these women participation, you know, in the electoral process. But again, I would say that that is heavily affected by this tribal mindset and also like, mainly it is the male members of the society who decided which side, which side their family members should vote as well. So, I think raising, if you provide more access to education like women are more educated, and they understand like, how much you know this right to vote really means like in how much it is going to be impacted their life actually. And I could just cut you off for because, you know, when we talk about women in literacy that is far higher as far as you know male illiteracy is concerned in Pakistan. So when you say that women are more educated I mean that needs to be back foot waxed no. So, yeah, women are more educated, but how much they're empowered because of that that also matters. Women today are working, you know, more and more women are like going towards employment. And I would say that, especially in the cities like you see that the, you know that resistance for women to go and work professionally is decreasing day by day. But even when women are, you know, part of these government structures, these, these organizations, how much to power they really have, we really need to understand that as well. The gender gap, you know, the employment discrimination that still exists. And yes, they are more, you know, educated today. But again, who really is calling the shots within the family, like, who is really deciding you know the matters that how where we should go. Their political alignment, I think women still feel a lot of like oppression and discrimination you know industry, despite the fact that they are more educated despite the fact that today they are more employed, but still in different and you know, unseen form. There, I would say that political engagement or social engagement that is affected by again, the specific gender based roles that has attributed to the woman. So yes, despite being educated, I think the problem still exists there. Okay, and there are like communities in Balochistan, for example, I mean, they're very underrepresented in the media. And over there you have a matriarchal society where women actually call the shots. And there's this negative stereotype which is actually associated with, you know, tribal societies that they tend to oppress women, but at this specific community within Balochistan, which is on the fringes is actually, you know, challenging that entire notion. So I think even reforming the tribal structure because the tribal structure and custom to talk about Pashtun Valley and it also takes place in Afghanistan as well. They're very sensitive towards upholding the central tenants of tribal customs, but it could be that we can keep the tribal customs in place, but raise more awareness regarding women's rights within that framework. Do you think that could actually work as far as tribal societies are concerned? Yeah, definitely. I think, you know, again, I would like to mention here that when we talk about like, feminism as a social justice movement, it is not again, you know, it is not against the traditional value system. It is only against, it attacks only those norms and values that disproportionately discriminate women. So, saying that like, you know, given like we don't really need to because I think our traditional value system is not like I would say that completely that it should be completely dismantled and it is completely bad. It is not. I think there are beautiful aspects of our traditional systems as well and which we need to uphold as well. So we really, when we talk about these issues, we really need to, you know, segregate like what we are really talking about. We are not attacking these centuries old established systems completely. We do not want to uproot them. We only want to, because we know society is an organic body, it keeps growing. And as we grow as a human civilization, we realize, okay, these are the things which we should leave behind because they are not helping our cause of human progress, overall human progress anymore. So we are just targeting those values and norms which are perpetuating, you know, the injustice in unfairness system, unfairness in the system. Okay. Okay. Finally, what is your message for those advocating for women's rights in Pakistan? How do they move forward? What sort of measures do they need to take? They need to take and what measures need to take place as far as the government is concerned? What is your take on that? So my message for the women who are advocating for women's rights is that you should remain strong. You need to continue this movement. You need to continue the struggle and don't feel discouraged because of the resistance that we face when we try to advocate women's rights. So just stay consistent, stay strong. So I think we need more collaboration between civil society and government bodies and advocacy platforms. We need more and more collaboration. And I think what government needs to do is provide a more conducive environment to these organizations that are working to promote women's rights in Pakistan. So I think the government needs to take an active role in protecting these organizations and in providing a conducive environment for these organizations and civil rights groups to work in the country. Thank you so much, Mrs. Itridzera for joining me on the show. It's been an absolute pleasure to have you with me. That's all that we have for now on Islamabad today for Think Tech Hawaii. This was Hamza Refa Lozad. We had a very engaging conversation with Ms. Zera on the basic contours of gender-based violence within Pakistan, what can actually be done to try and promote greater women's rights in the country. We thank her for her time to follow us. You can log on on social media, follow us on Instagram, Twitter, as well as Facebook. Have a great time. Take care.