 And we're gonna talk to people who aren't vegan but love dogs the circle of life So you're actually using the Lion King as a scientific source here. I Care about why you two people who are good people still pay for animals to be stabbed and killed when you're against it So what would you choose when you leave? I will try my best to become a week Most people are against animal cruelty our morals are pretty much the same on animal cruelty definition of animal cruelty is different You're definition of things are different. You agreed that this is cruel you sat there and agreed it's on tape You agreed this is cruel. So Brandon. Yeah, you read the sign. Yes, I did read the sign. Yes, animal lovers who aren't vegan hypocrites Yeah, yeah, do you just disagree with the sign? I do yeah, can I extend my argument so you know the full scope of it and then you can debate it from there, but People love dogs for a reason. Yeah, they have their own personalities. They're sentient They don't want to you know be harmed and if anyone hurts a dog and a dog lover finds out about it They want to kill this person like I've seen the threads on dog abuse videos But then they go home. They open up the fridge. They pull a steak out and they chuck it on the barbecue That animal was enslaved had their children taken from them and Was shot in the skull and had their head cut off in a slaughterhouse I'm saying that that makes them a moral hypocrite Do you agree or disagree with that because these animals that they do this to Inherently in all the ways that matter like sentence and all the things I described to you are the same How do you test sentient sir? You can Scientists can test consciousness. You mean is that what you mean? Is it scientific that animals are sentient? I wouldn't say it's scientific like it's I think even they can't really describe Same like even to us we know we're conscious, but we don't understand that something else is conscious like okay Do I know that you're conscious? Not really You can't you can't be inside my head. You can't see what I'm seeing right now Okay, so what do I do do I give you the benefit of the doubt? Yeah, I would say yeah, I don't enslave you and kill you because you can't prove to me that you're conscious. Yeah. Yeah, 100% Yeah, yeah, 100% do you love do you think one sec? Do you think that the animals now are conscious or do we give them the benefit of the doubt that they're conscious because the benefit of the doubt? Yeah, because they obviously avoid They chase their babies when their babies get taken they avoid instinct Well, what would be your instinct if you got a stunner put to the back of your neck? You know they get scared and they remember abuse animals and remember abuse Yeah, because they dogs remember abuse. Yeah, you learn things adapt Yeah, so we're gonna talk about whether or not I care about plants like carrots and stuff like that, but No, that's you laugh. There's a joke. Yeah. I think it's a joke, too Yeah, but do you agree that dog lovers who love dogs who are happy to go don't touch that dog That's animal cruelty go home and eat animal cruelty are moral hypocrites. Do you agree with the sign first? I? Don't know I don't think so. No, so why aren't they a hypocrite? Do you know what hypocrite means? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah, you say something, but you do another thing do another thing. Yeah, I understand what you're saying. Yeah, um Why do I think it? Why do I think it? Um Obviously, I know what you're gonna say about humanely killing obviously you like it's killing I understand I understand put yourself in the animals position and then ask me the question of course, but Naturally with the top of the food chain Would you agree or not? So well, well, no, I don't know what this food chain is I mean, I've seen it. Yeah, but I mean in what respect do you think you're an apex predator? Natural we don't really mean by food. We don't have any naturally predator So, you know, we'll just symbol, you know, you got the lion the gazelle the gazelle eats the grass that double food chain So you mean like a chain of eating or you mean like that like a chain of eating. Yeah Okay, so a chain of eating can be me eating carrots or me eating tofu. That's a food chain Or do you mean you're the apex predator at the top of the food chain and everyone else? Yeah, I see humans at the we don't have any natural you wouldn't say we have any natural common predators It depends on what environment I put you in. Yeah, of course But animals also use you know technology and things obviously we have guns and stuff like that So you might say that's not naturally the top of the food chain But other animals also use tools like birds can use sticks to do things and kill things Another thing so they're using tools as well. They're just doing what they can To be that top of the food chain Okay, so you use the food chain argument to a dog lover and say well I'm going to shoot your dog in the head and kill them and eat them because I'm top of the food chain So therefore morality doesn't exist for anyone outside of us. They're not in our food chain though. Why not? Choice and It is why not you either use the food chain for all animals or or just we don't need it though They don't need you don't need this. They don't need to be in our food chain either same argument How does it not make you a hypocrite to pick and choose which animals matter and which don't? It doesn't make it it's just choice No, if you if you're using the food chain argument apex predator though We can do whatever we want to others below us because they're animals and we're humans, right? Which is a human supremacy mindset Now Why do we say well don't do it to dogs though? I don't do it to dolphins though. Yeah, oh in japan that we're hunting whales don't go to whales though I do it to cows chickens chickens no worries, but don't hurt my dog Yeah, I get you I would say it's it's about a personal connection You care about more of your family than you do just meeting me as a stranger But I don't want your rights taken away from you and I don't want you to be murdered in a right I'll defend you too. You are a stranger. Are you careful more for your family than me? I'm picking my brother over you I don't want you to be enslaved though. And if someone did you don't stop it, dude I've someone come up and bash you right now. I'd jump in but what did they ever do to you just because of your friend Nothing. Yes. No nothing But I'm saying I'm just saying with a dog with the particularly the dog We obviously get more of a personal connection to a dog. No, then I do a cow. That's false Even a stranger's dog. You seen someone kicking a stranger's dog. You're not jumping in No, but that's what I'm saying a dog dog dogs in general. We have more personal connection Like I've had cows. I've had sheep. I've had chickens I not that I can get any personal exchange But I get much more personal connection from even a stranger's dog than I do my own cows and stuff So your morality is dictated by your personal connection not by what's right and wrong Everyone's is everyone's got their own experiences. That's not true. Yeah, that's not true because I might necessarily not like Jerry over here I don't want his rights taken away from him and to have his head cut off and then eat his body and go apex predator I don't have a personal connection with Jerry. I quite like Jerry by the way But I'm just saying you can't use that argument to justify anything that's immoral. He's not in your food chain Why not? Because he's a human because it's unnecessary if you give what about muffin a dog isn't in a lion's food chain But if you put it in front of it and it's got no other gazelles or food or whatever it's in his natural It's gonna eat that so we don't need to eat humans. We don't need to eat cows either So your argument's contradicting itself. Do you do you see he fell over your own words? Are we an animal? Yes A lion's an animal. It doesn't choose You're comparing your moral framework to a lion's moral framework and it's about we're animals with a bit of a higher IQ That's all we are. We're nothing special. We're just we're just an animal with a higher IQ But you have society has morals that adhere to yeah, you have morals you would adhere to Yeah, there's certain things you won't do and you won't go and do whatever you want and go Well lions do it. No, no, of course. So we're different to lions that we have. We're morally culpable. Yeah We've got our IQ maybe gives us morals We have we're morally culp are held morally culpable for our actions with our conscience and with laws Okay, yeah, now this is legal animal abuse and slavery. Okay, so I know that Legality and morality are separate separate completely separate. Yeah So so I'm saying like how do you use a lion's behavior to justify what we do at two animals when like you said we have other things to eat But you're saying we we can't eat any animals. That's pretty much where you're coming at. Yes, we don't need to You're not in a survival situation. You ain't no apex predator in the ocean Why are we fit to eat meat though? You can also eat shit doesn't mean that we should sick from shit. You get sick from meat I've never gone sick from it. That's not the argument here I'm saying it's immoral to eat meat just because you can do something doesn't mean that it's okay Where does morals come from it comes from us? Yeah, and if I think it's okay to eat meat Then my morals are okay to eat meat. So that's my morals But I would say that you're abusing those animals and then you but you're against animal morals No, it's not it's actually everyone's morals because are you again? Well, are you well? Let me ask you meat than a vegan. So that's most the majority is on my side of No, they're not then why do they meet because I'll ask you this question Do you think the majority of people are against animal abuse? Yes, are you are you against animal abuse? Yes. Okay. What do you define as abuse? Unnecessarily harming with no other gain So if I were to gain from that abuse, it would be justified I wouldn't call it abuse for a reason A reason. Yes, shouldn't it be for a justification? Justifying is to put on that resource to someone's For them to live I'm saying that if you abuse someone for what reason are we okay? Well, let's just look through this I'm saying this is abuse by the way. Yeah. Yeah, okay. This is abuse what we do to animals In a slaughterhouse is abuse I'm arguing that and if you don't agree with that, then I don't know if you have a lot of that Well, they've they're murdering a dairy cow because she doesn't produce milk anymore This is just a legally though. They have to shoot it in the head. It has to be dead before they did Oh, okay. So that was that twitching was like nerves and stunning doesn't always work because they've got thick skulls What can I say? That I disagree with then because it's it's going through pain. I don't really I don't think they should go through pain This is a farrowing shed. This is a standard practice in Australia. You're getting your pork. These piglets come from a farrowing shed Very normal to have dead piglets in the farrowing shed ask any farmer This is blunt force trauma. They smack their head on the ground if they don't grow Large enough and you can look up all these standards Oh, they exist here This is where they get put on a truck and they get put in a gas chamber here This was heralded by the RSPCA as the most humane method for stunning Yeah, so I don't agree with this stuff because there's other methods that are more humane So I don't agree with the laws put in place. I agree with You disagree with what you support? No, I said this fine date mate, but I disagree with the way they kill them But you buy meat from these places Yeah, but I never chose them to be shot like that if I could obviously I'm telling you that that doesn't matter I don't care if you chose or didn't choose. I'm telling you right now. This is where your meat comes from And I if there's other ways then Well, that's a hypothetical. Exactly. I'm saying that you're paying for this right now And that's the only choice right now if you give me another choice if you I will if you mainly But you give me another choice to eat meat humanely then I will that's not the art You're still an animal abuser. Listen if you can be a vegan right now or you can choose to abuse animals So you're saying if everyone went vegan right now, you think it's a stain off the earth You think that's a high population. That's a hypothetical. That's what you want If you right now you could click a button and go everyone's vegan We couldn't do that. But would you choose it if we okay? Well, let's just say we click the button Everyone's vegan the animal agriculture industry doesn't exist anymore. Well, those animals disappear They all disappear. Yeah, you choose that. Yeah, they all disappear. Do you think we're with a lamb mass to feed the whole population? We're just Just that 100 percent more 1000 percent. Let me explain to you There's currently 7 billion human beings on earth There's 74 billion land animals that they're feeding to kill for human consumption. Yes. Now. What are those land animals eating? But what's caloric density answer me. So yeah, I've got plants. Yeah, okay. Yeah, so they're growing food for 70 Can we eat grass 71 billion sentient beings right now one grass? Well, they're not only fed grass They're fed grain most of the soy is fed to animals a lot of it's gross. We can't eat grass That doesn't mean the vast majority of we can eat that So, let me let you finish your point. So yeah, what's your point? No, no, no. Yeah, that was that was it just graph. We can't eat grass that you're saying what they yes I understand they grain but they also eat a lot of grass that doesn't mean okay if they can't we'll eat the grass We can't eat the grass Okay, so your argument is that a small portion of what or a large portion. Do you think they all eat grass? Let me just they eat a lot of late grass. Well cows eat a lot the grass fed cows eat grass Yeah, they're grain finished and most I would argue that most cattle they don't actually grass feed They they feed and feed lots Okay, but these chickens what are they in grass in the shed? Yeah, no, they're in grain. No, of course. They're in grain And what are the pigs eating in those sheds grass No, no in sheds. No, they would eat. Yeah, of course So I'm saying that most animals are fed what what are most animals fed like I know grass and grain I disagree with you most animals that that we kill on land are chickens And it's using land It's using sheds we we grow but the grow that grain it's using land lots of land Well, I would say if every animal your argument is we can't all be vegan because there's not enough land I'm saying we're already growing enough food. Yeah, we can't all be vegan and we can't all be meat I would say I'm not nothing I don't think you're following here. Okay. We're already growing enough food to feed 80 billion sentient beings If we abolish animal agriculture delete 74 billion from that equation We've only got 7 billion people to feed are we not going to be able to feed those 7 billion when we're already feeding us now plants Chloric density though if if we all like plants everyone how much plants do we need each every and every day to grow? Can you answer that question depends on your size but between two and three thousand calories And but how much more would you agree that meat is more chloro dense than? The plants the nuts and plants. No, then plant all plants all eating just nuts No, we're not but you're not all eating just meat either. So that's a bit. It's a non-argument But but you agree that we eat a balanced plant based diet But you agree it's more calorically dense meat than Depends carrots and cabbage or all most most 100 grams 100 grams a state compared to a count of chickpeas Yeah, but 100 grams of steaks this big 100 grams of chickpeas is how much? Nice about this big. So that's 100 grams. No a count of chickpeas is probably about 240 grams be degree in a smaller area Chicken that's how much chicken with a certain amount of calories the equivalent is much larger for plants When you eat a more when you eat a piece of chicken, you're also eating everything that chicken ate. Okay, so think about that. You're missing that out You're consuming everything that chicken ate to you're responsible for all of those crops So when you eat a piece of chicken, it's magnitudes crops than just eating the grain So I don't know what you're trying to say like I eat two to three thousand four thousand calories a day It's just plants. Okay, it's what these animals are being fed anyway But magnitudes more if you're feeding it to the animals and then eating the flesh I'm saying it's a much more efficient use of our food If we just eat the food directly then feed it to 70 billion animals And I don't know how you could disagree with that mathematically. It's just the easy simple things I don't know how you can disagree with that simple as you would put it There's not that many vegans as there is meat It is to prove that that works on a a world scale. You're not eating any plants right now No, yeah, I'm eating some plants. Okay, so how many how many I'm saying how much of your calories is plants and how much of it is meat? I would say I would say at least 70% is probably for meat. You eat 70% meat? Yeah, I feel sorry for your bowels But most most 70% of your calories are coming from me not the calories. Yeah, I'll say calories. Yes Okay, I used to eat like that too. Yeah, but Anyway, so you'd have to increase your calories by 70% of just plants and How many how many plants do you think those animals are being fed so you can have all that meat? I wouldn't exactly know but it's do you think it's a lot? We don't have to I would say it's a lot. I know the food trend 10% of your energy goes on I get that whole thing that of course you have to use energy so you feed them I get I get that system more efficient to just eat the plants directly Come on. Do our enjoyment gets any benefit though Would you live to enjoy or do you live to survive? That's a different argument. Okay now I want to talk about you you're saying this holocaust is justified because we couldn't possibly feed seven billion people plants That was your argument part of it. Yeah, I do but I leave we can't feed Seven billion people in just plants if we just click the button and everyone was vegan now Okay, well, that's a hypothetical that won't happen in reality. Yeah, but I said even if it did happen We're already feeding seven billion people plants. Okay, and we're feeding 74 billion animals plants Come on. It's it's very simple plants can't be eaten by humans Not all of them because I just proved you the vast majority of animals are eating grain So you're saying most of our diet should just be grain That's not what I said. We should eat a balanced diet But most of them are eating grain So let's say we take them the equation. We've just got a shitload of grain and we're just eating grain now No, that's not what I said. That's absolutely ridiculous. We have a balanced diet But what's the problem? We only get the grain if if they only take them out of the equation We just get the grain back. We don't get We obviously grow we use that land to grow the food we need not the food the animals need We're not just going to go. Okay, click your fingers animals disappear. Let's eat all their food We're going to start growing our own crops. We're using more land now. No, we're not We're going to we're going to reuse that land the land already exists, bro I think we have to just keep that land for grain. No, we take that grain away We we let rewilding happen, you know, we we put let forest grow back there You know because they've deforested that land haven't they to grow crops Most deforestation in the amazon happens to grow crops to feed to you Do you think though? No, no, no, sorry. Yeah, no go to feed to your animals. Yeah Yeah, so Would you say an issue that was also population growth as well? Like inevitably We've got a finite amount of resources on earth. Would you say the population no matter what we plants meet? I reckon eventually it's gonna be too much. Well, listen, shouldn't we more control the population? So we can eat the things and enjoy food. No. No, I think that we're inevitably run out with food. Anyway 75 of the world's Land farmland is to feed to the animals we eat Okay, do you understand that? I understand. Okay. So if we stop feeding 74 billion land animals to eat All right. Yeah, we're gonna have 75 extra land to feed humans to leave space for population growth Well, how long do you think it's going to take to reach 74 billion people? We've already four billion people. We've already got that in animals that we're feeding to eat steak It's ridiculous. Now. I think that that doesn't justify A holocaust of animals It's it mathematically doesn't work. I don't think you're getting it. No, I'm understanding. I'm understanding. Yeah. Well, you okay So you you you you agree that we can sustain seven billion people on plants Do they want to though Okay, that's another argument But do you agree we can sustain seven billion people on plant based diet? I don't think I think the mass can't be done properly until we actually give it a go Until everyone actually went vegan and I don't think it still would work That's what I'm saying. You don't you can mathematically do it. I disagree with you. That's my wrong. That's disagree with me. I disagree with you It's ridiculous. We've already got we've already got like 75 of the world's farmland is used to grow crops for animals We can we've got plenty of room for growing crops for humans. I mean just mathematically doesn't work But that's okay. We can leave that point because we disagree on that. Yeah, 100. Yeah, we we disagree on that Now I'm saying that dog lovers are hypocrites, right because they're paying for this these pigs sent in intelligence Just like dogs even more intelligent than dogs. They want to live they suffer. They feel pain Dog lovers. You heard a dog. They cry bloody murder. They eat these animals every single day pay for the abuse of these animals Um How does that person justify this when they can easily be a vegan? How do they justify this dude right now? This is I'm telling you this is very standard In australia, I just don't think your morals are different to everyone else's so they don't have to justify It's not there. It's not in their justification. That's not in my justification Yeah, but my my I'm telling you they're a hypocrite because they are they do care about animal cruelty That's why because if they don't care about animal cruelty, then they're just in their morals animal cruelty is different to your animal cruelty Your animal cruelty is any end result that can Not at all in their death my animal you saying this is an animal cruelty No, I'm saying this is animal cruelty. Okay. Well, then we're in agreement. Yes, they're pain. We're in agreement that pain I don't think the end result though is animal cruelty Cutting a lion killing a gazelle is that animal cruelty? You brought the lions. We already discussed the lions and we destroyed that argument You can't use we can't use a lion's behavior to justify anything In a moral society now if I cut muffin's head off right now, would that be animal cruelty? You don't need to cut her off. No, no, no, that's not the argument That's a deflection what you did there. It would be cruel. Yes, but you don't need to that's what I'm saying in my morals So you have everyone's morals definition is different. You don't need to cut these animals heads off either But to eat I want to eat muffin You don't need to what's your problem with that You don't need to you don't need to eat these animals to need something that's already there You don't know that you pay for those animals to be killed by the supply and demand chain That's how supply and demand works. You pay for that animal to be abused and tortured That's why I'm calling you an animal abuser when you pay for them But it's say I say I stop today. Do you think that helps on the wide scale? That's a practical issue in principle. Do you agree that this is animal cruelty that you're supporting? If they're in pain before they die then yes, it's animal cruelty I just said if I cut muffin's head off without her being in pain, uh, him being in pain Would that be animal cruelty? You said yes. No, no, it's not one. It's not whether I need to whether I want to whether I have to It's whether if I do it in my moral values, it is that's what I'm saying your morals are different to everyone else's If I need to eat muffin Yeah, if you can't get anything else and you need to eat muffin, it's not cruel to cut their head off No, I would say if you're in the like the forest and you have to eat muffin There's nothing else to eat then I would say no you do what you did to survive So what are you so what forest are you in what forest are you in right now? No, I'm saying right now. No, you wouldn't need to but if you needed to okay So why are you eating these animals if you don't need to? I do I don't just eat I don't need animals brother That's fine. You can do what you want. I don't need animals. So what are you talking about? I'm a vegan. I've been vegan for six years. Are you saying I need to eat animals? No, I'm not saying you personally need to eat animals. So why do you need to? Because my lifestyle I need that that because I can't just go eat and eat four plates every meal That's bullshit. You don't need to meet is calorically dense. I can do that straight away just eat that done Plant-based meats are the same macronutrient profile as me basically But you're not getting calorically dense bit you are nuts and seeds and avocados and plant-based mock meats Have you even tracked your calories as a plant-based athlete? I've done it for years Well, exactly. So what are you talking about? It's easy to do but it's calorically it is You can't even deny it. You're justifying it You're justifying animal cruelty because you don't want to eat a little bit more food It's not a little bit more food though. It's a lot less calorically dense. No, it's not It's not that's ridiculous But you think let's just say you're right. You had to eat a little bit more food Which is ridiculous. You can have a plate full of food like that, which is a thousand calories What do you need three to four thousand calories? Yeah, something like that. Yeah, okay You can have a bowl of oatmeal with nuts and with fruit dried fruit and with maple syrup on top And that would be a thousand calories and then you can have a plate of food with, uh, you know some uh pasta with some uh Cashew nut sauce and you can increase the calories very easily You can have a big thick shake with peanut butter and protein powder What? Vegan protein. Vegan protein powder. Those types of foods are expensive as well Not necessarily So you don't think in first world countries meat is More sorry less expensive than a healthy diet of like veggies things like that You don't think that at all. The cheapest food in the supermarkets are your Pantry items like your chickpeas and your beans and your lentils and your rice and your Nuts and seeds. You only need to use them sparingly, but you know not to be quite expensive Yeah, but you use you only have a handful a day But but You know it's eight bucks a packet or whatever you use a handful a day Whatever i'm saying the cheapest foods in the supermarket are your plant-based foods um, but it's it's Price to how calorically dense they are. I don't give a shit about that face of this What we we're arguing we're arguing some economical Difference in a couple of bucks compared to this injustice here You don't give a shit about these animals being tortured and killed. They're saying tortured tortured isn't killing torture in This is torture. This is torture. How do you think they get to the slaughterhouse? How do you think they are born and what where do they live? Have you seen them suffering in these places? Have you seen them get put into these boxes these chickens? This is all torture they cut their beaks off when they're so they don't peck each other in confinement They snip their tails off the piglets tails if I just let them roam and they're on a free field That wouldn't be torture if I didn't do this stuff before they got killed When they go into that slaughterhouse, right? I did personally if I if I all the way they had an awesome life And then I killed them at the very end. Is that torture? It's not just a torture It's the enslavement. It's the torture. It's the murder. I don't make them do anything Enslavement is more I force you to do this. I didn't force them to you force them down the kill floor and stab a knife into their throat But that's not torture I said it's more than just torture. It's torture, but it's not there. We agree. It's not torture then It's not just torture my argument These animals are all tortured. So killing is torture. It's killing torture Killing is murder. Yes, that's murder not torture. So if you murder someone that's still not vegan. Yeah, it's still it's still bad I'm still arguing against someone murdering you or torturing you and then murdering you or enslaving you and not murdering you They're all bad. I'm saying all of these points Make up my argument not just one not just okay. I won't torture them I'm saying you're stabbing him in the throat still fucking bad. Isn't it like But it's I'm saying out of is not torture Not all the time. No, not all the time But you tell you explain to me The meat that you get right when you go into the suit you tell me one animal that's not tortured Just just to focus on the torture argument. You don't know that's what I'm saying. You don't know Well, well, you tell me an animal that's not tortured. We'll talk about them We don't know each and every animal each different. I do. It's not like one farm. I do all under one fun I do every farm. We'll try every farm in the world. Well, I've got my footage. Where's yours? You were the one who came in I've got more evidence than you do Well, yeah, you just came in and you get random people and you've already got your evidence with you We've got thousands of hours of this That's fine. And well, let's just talk about cows. They have they have debutting happen, you know, when they cut their horns off I've never I've never No, I don't know the standard in the Darian's they cut their horns off. Okay. Yeah, they burnt. They singe it with a hot iron Okay, they what else you went to a piglet's they had their tails snipped off They had the testicles ripped out without anesthetic and they had their teeth Being off is actually so they don't get um, I don't care No, it's because they don't buy them. It's a medical practice. It's for the farmer So they don't bite themselves in confinement and cause problems in there So when I because I've done this before I put a ring around a sheep's tail Right, it's torture But it's so they don't get bacteria and die Oh, when you're cutting off fly strike and that Okay, why have you got these sheep to begin with? But there you go. You're you're deflecting now. It's is that is that torture? I'm not deflecting medical practice answer the question if it is in the animal's best interest Are you exploiting that animal for their meat? But it is in their best interest. They're going to die If they don't potentially die. I want to know if you have a sanctuary or not or you're you're you're breeding this animal to kill them No, I don't have a sanctuary. So what are they for? What are these animals for? Yes for that for your best interest Yes, so it's not for the animal's best interest in everyone's best interest. Yes So what I'm saying is These practices they're doing to animals are for the farmer's best interest so they can sell their product Okay, it's not for the animal's best interest in Sanctuaries when they give a sheep a haircut, you know, so they don't get flushed right because everyone do things for Someone else's best interest. I didn't say that But in these farms when they torture these animals, it's in the farmer's best interest So they can keep them in confinement. They shouldn't do that to their tails if even if they're going to die I'm saying they shouldn't be exploiting them and treating them cruelly for a reason that is unjustifiable to begin with Unjustifiable to you it's unjustifiable Then why is is the majority of the world eating meat and it's justifies for them? But not to you because they haven't seen all this shit, dude Now you telling me that I've seen this before then I haven't changed my opinion So you're saying every person if they saw this they don't care You're you don't care. You're happy to be an animal abuser. A lot of people are not happy to do that I'm not that's and that's why you're a vegan. So it's everyone's choice It's your choice to be an animal abuser. That's what I'm saying But your opinion is that I'm an animal abuser. No, it's a fact. It's not everyone else's opinion Well, it's not an opinion. This is objectively true. That cow is a downer Okay, they they're chucking her in a in a truck to be slaughtered and turned into a burger when you pay for animal products You're making a vote. Yeah. Yeah abuse those animals for me torture those animals for me Chuck them in a gas chamber for me stab them in the throat for me and chop them up for me Who's the animal abuser the vegan or the person who pays for this? Neither Well, you know you have to consider yourself an animal abuser to be an animal abuser I would say the people who aren't conscious of this They're not morally culpable as you are you're conscious sure most of the world this this exact footage today You think most of them would go vegan? Um, I don't know. I think that probably 80 of the people here wouldn't want to see this Now whether they are too lazy to change or that's too Inconvenient for them to change is another thing, but when they look at this they're not as comfortable as you most people I guarantee you most people will I've been doing this for six years Even if someone's uncomfortable you still think they're going to change just because they're uncomfortable Not necessarily true some people can be conscious of this and then still continue to pay for it But that person would be an animal abuser But see that's the thing. I'm morally we're different. Are you understanding people's morals are different to yours? Not really most people are against animal cruelty our morals are pretty much the same on animal cruelty But your definition of animal cruelty is different your definition of things are different But you agreed that this is cruel you sat there and agreed it's on tape you agreed this is cruel Yes putting an animal in pain for no added benefit. Yes, that's cruel your benefit is you're getting their flesh from it Yeah, but they don't need to put it in pain if they need to eat them But that's completely different I'm saying that you're paying for them to be in pain and tortured and killed and enslaved Yeah, that's what you're paying for if you deny that you're denying reality. It's it's a fantasy land I'm paying to eat that I'm not paying for those other things in order to eat them They have to have their head cut off. They have to be enslaved have to be mass bred They have to be kept in confinement and they have to be in most cases tortured and then in every single case murdered I would I don't they don't need to be tortured that I've had sheep myself They need to be merged so you're focusing on a torture needs to be murdered No, I want you to talk about each point enslaved mass bred, okay tortured and murdered now No, and slave well I guarantee enslavement. No, I've had sheep. I have not Harmed them in before the death. No, I'm talking about the ones you eat that you don't see But so you're saying if you I did it just myself, it's okay. I'm saying you definitely pay for animals to be tortured You definitely do it's it's standard practice to torture or that's an indirect It's a result of paying for the flesh So I don't pay to for them to be you just you going in you like I want a bit of pork as a result of you paying for that animals have been tortured for that or murdered and definitely enslaved mass bred and murdered which is all animal cruelty. What do you see as enslaved? uh, they're they're held against their will for to uh to basically um provide their body for someone who owns them So they're considered property. They have no right. They have no basic fundamental right to their own freedom. Okay So if we would just release them, what would happen for them? No, we don't release them because they are what would happen These animals aren't natural these animals are not natural. We've selectively bred them and for our own purpose That's what I'm saying. You can't release them now if I put a sperm into an egg artificially that's still a natural process Do you know where these animals come from these animals come from human selective breeding they don't they won't survive in nature We've created this freak show You can't just release them now that would be unethical. We have to protect them now I'm saying we created this genetically, but we we didn't create the genetics We we selectively you know what selective breeding is. Yeah, yeah, you select you. Yeah, you put them together. Yeah, okay. We did that So we can eat their bodies like sadists We're eating a sentient beings bodies that's sick. Look at them. They're suffering Satis Well, what's the sadist we should get the google definition definition sadist. I think it would be apply Like sadists are a bit religious though in most religions. Okay. Well, okay allows you to me. I'm a religious, but this is the t-snipping This is the t-snip. This is the tail clipping This is torture and when you buy a pork Well, I can almost guarantee you're getting that from here I mean, where else are you getting if someone's backyard peak that they lived this happy life and they looked after them They shot them in the skull No, that's that's that's a fantasy these days. It doesn't happen. So you're agreeing that you're paying for cruelty I'm agreeing on paying for me and indirectly Some farmers not all farmers are going to do that. That's not my choice If I could choose it is your choice. Well, you don't know not every person knows where their exact farm comes from Well, why don't you find out? It's not it's not the world doesn't work like that when you have a piece of someone's body on the table That per that person this is how's a person are the pieces of their body on the table Was that cruel? I don't know. It's the piece of their body. This is how it was a piece of muffin. Where's muffin? There's a piece of them on the table. Oh, let me have a look at that. Um, was that cruel? I don't know. It's a piece of their body. They're chopped up into pieces How can you how can we can't see that? but The actual death itself to in my definition isn't cruelty because they didn't go through Of course, these are ones are but most or not most I can't say that because I don't know the exact statistics But didn't go through pain Most didn't go through pain Well, the evidence is out there for people to see so you can make your you can have your opinion I'm going to say your opinion is completely false based on all this evidence. We have and Let's just put your argument to it to you So you're looked after right now your free range you're moving around in the environment here You have your freedom, you know, I've let you I've let your aim around I cut your head off right now and you've got very protein rich arms here You know, that would feed me for about four days. So so because you haven't Felt that you have had no prior torture. I've used your body for my own gain when I have a vegan option there But you've also got other meat source options So it's is equally it's just this cruel It's just as cruel it's murder and torture But either way whether I choose you or whether I choose muffin or whether I choose a pig I can always choose plant based But it's a choice again And then you're choosing to abuse animals when you don't make the vegan choice It's just saying everyone has to make that choice Conscious people who pay for animals to be abused. They're conscious animal abusers There's no way around that if morals are set by the majority of society. They're not you're the wrong one That's an appeal to popularity So who are they set by you know, you know human slavery was once legal and and the majority accepted it. Yeah I didn't live by that back then but I saw well, do you know much about history? I don't know that much slavery. I know it was legally sanctioned. Yes, and now it's not Yeah, but the majority Stood by and let it happen But now it's not so I'm saying the pop. It's not the majority. I'm saying the majority doesn't dictate what's moral Okay, no we so if I dictate that it's morally Like fine, then it is so it's separate each and every one I dictate that doing whatever I want to anyone I want is moral because that's my set of moral beliefs that doesn't work It does so where do moral beliefs come from then? So where do moral beliefs come from then well as a as a society we agree upon them to protect each other's rights Don't we we agree upon laws and to protect each other's rights So otherwise something like the whole of society so in society meat is the majority product like where most people eat meat, so then it is moral I'm saying that we are big fat hypocrites if we desire rights, right and we deny them and be sent in animals I'm saying when it comes to animals 100% if you pay for them to be abused and killed You're an animal abuse and your morals are completely you're saying our morals come from society and if our morals Are more than yours like population wise people believe in that moral More than yours then you're saying that's what society. No, no, no, no, no, I never said that the the what is popular from society We agreed upon The morals that we adhere to in the law to protect each other's rights, didn't we you said laws and morals are different things We are they are different. They are different. They are different with laws They are different, but we agreed upon the law based on our morality, didn't we So we have laws protecting us now, but it was more it was morality Laws are upon morality. No, they are they are when it comes to humans, right? A parking ticket that's morally not all laws, but I'm talking about the laws not all laws Not all the laws, but the laws that protect our human rights Human rights Yeah, I'm going to use human rights as an example because you might understand that because you can't understand their suffering I'm saying we have laws that protect our human rights and we agreed upon that based on our moral standard Okay, that's how we set those laws into place. It was morals that influenced the law the law doesn't influence morals Okay, now when it comes to human slavery, it was our morals that we agreed on that that was fucking wrong So we pushed that into laws and there was a big war and they abolished slavery. Okay, that was morals that pushed that into law Why isn't there a law that eating meat is wrong then? Because people like you Support animal abuse and don't think it's fucking right. Most people eat meat because they're unaware They kept in the dark. So when they see this when they eat me when they see this So you're saying if people eat meat, they don't know that that's from an animal That's bullshit. Everyone knows here that's fucking from an animal Does everyone know here that an animal was abused and tortured for their meat? Most people don't think about it, but they still eat meat. A few people do they still eat meat If they eat and this applies to them as well If they know about this these animals suffering here are being hacked up in a slaughterhouse I'm saying that they're abusing animals too. So was I Like I'm not off the hook You were saying the majority and the laws are wrong then for the morals the morals are wrong and they have been before They have been before so they are now. This is legal. It's wrong to you No, it's not it's not but then I think I go one sec one sec who hears against animal cruelty so Most most people against animal cruelty Yeah But we are saying eating meat. It's not animal cruelty. We're talking about eating meat right now Uh, well cruelty is involved in the process. So you can't avoid that. Why do they still eat meat then? Because they are practicing moral hypocrisy when they do. That's what I'm saying to you. Yes No, it's actually objectively true Because if you eat meat when cruelty was a 100 part of that process no matter which way you look at it Cutting off someone's head off his cruel turning him into a steak is cruel And when you pay for that product you're paying for something that's cruel and if you're against something that's cruel you become a hypocrite If you're against animal cruelty you pay for animal cruelty. You're a hypocrite. There's no way of going around And it's about the definition thing again. If I don't think I am then I'm not Well, then you're living in a fantasy land, bro And most people watching won't be on your team because you're not being logical here. It's fine. Yeah But most people watching are going to eat meat So then not necessarily it doesn't matter if they're on my team about certain things the overall debate They're still on my team. Yeah, you know a lot of people stood there and fought to not Abolish slavery back in the day. They used the economic argument. Oh, Jesus had slaves They used all these arguments to keep human slaves in place because they didn't want to get rid of human slaves Because it was very convenient for them. They gained a lot of benefit from it And this is the same thing you're doing right now. You're on the wrong side of history right now You're you're you're actually you're actually going you're supporting an industry that's Abusing animals and killing them. Do you think most people one day going to be vegan? 100% evil can't last forever most people look at this and don't want to support it They're not like you like you're you're really a minority when it comes to animal cruelty So I don't agree with But isn't the point you're saying that most people Agree that animal cruelty is bad, but they still ain't me. That's the majority. Would you agree? So that that's my some majority Not everyone has made the collection But everyone knows that that is meat. That is an animal So they still eat it if you're saying everyone knows that that okay, do you want to explain to you what? Yes, they've been told lies like you you're trying to fabricate here like they're treated humanely You know, you know, they live in on a grass and they don't even feel it They fall asleep on a pillow and wake up in a supermarket. They don't see this animal here That well, why do you have this fantasy about where animal products come from? I don't have this fantasy. You do you think it's a farm. I know that but you're saying there's no torture in there There's no cruelty. They you know, I'm not saying everyone. I'm not saying everyone's perfect I'm saying there aren't not are you saying every single one? Is kit like putting pain before their death? That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying they're all enslaved and they're all murdered But everyone knows that Everyone knows that Everyone knows that an animal has to be murdered To eat that meat that would just that would be living it would be surprised. I've been doing this for a long time Okay, when I show this to people they feel sick. I didn't see that. I didn't I never knew this So they didn't know an animal was needed to create the meat. It sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? But they are they are so far detached from the process that they don't see murder when they grab a chicken burger It looks like a chicken burger. It doesn't look like a bird Yes, I would say that that's not good because I didn't know that if I grabbed a pig here right now And stabbed them in the throat this pig in the throat everyone here is going to be screaming bloody murder And then they'll go in there and eat a ham sandwich. Now. What's that about? They're detached from the process. That's what I'm saying So you're a popularity argument here is is is only hinging upon the fact that people are ignorant to the process They see the meat. They don't see the process Now to you it's blatant right now I'm showing you the abuse and the cruelty and the violence and the blood right you're still going to continue to do it That's your choice. You're choosing to be an animal abuser. That's your choice But most people here haven't seen the blood and the cruelty and the fear and the violence and the death And when they do they're going to feel sick when they grow grab that steak. They're going to see an animal They're not going to see a piece. They're still going to eat the steak. They might or they might not That's everyone's choice. It's a massive vegan movement happening all across the world. I agree. Yeah. Yeah, I guess we just disagree We disagree but when you leave here today, you're not going to be a vegan. You're going to continue to abuse animals through your diet I'm still going to eat meat. Yes. Okay. Yeah, okay Thanks for the challenge mate. Thanks for the debate. I appreciate it a lot