 I'm Mel Hauser. I use she they pronouns and I'm executive director of all brains belong. Welcome to brain club share screen. Here we go. Tonight we're going to be talking about unlearning the myth of independence, because this month at brain club we're kicking off our new theme on interdependence. The idea of being connected to other people and inter relying on other people and we'll I'll give you a tour of what's ahead this month. But first was brain club. It's our education space about neurodiversity and topics related to inclusive community. A reminder this is for education purposes only, not a support group, not for medical or mental health advice, and all forms of participation are okay here. You can get video on or off, even if it's on we don't expect anything of you feel free to do what needs doing in whatever way you're most comfortable, and you can communicate however you're most comfortable on mute and use mouth words you can type in the chat. And it's really important to us that we affirm all aspects of identity and respect and protect the group's collective access needs. Sarah can you say can you say hello can you wave. This is Sarah Wilkins our community programs coordinator direct messaging is enabled so if you're uncomfortable for any reason. If you could send a private message to Sarah, Sarah will see it faster than I will on insured screen mode. Okay, I think this is, we're ready to move past. Alright, so last bit of access so close captions enabled just have to toggle it on if you'd like to use it. You can also click on your version of zoom either the lab transcript close captioning link, or the more dot dot dot show subtitles or hide subtitles if you want to turn them off chat box speech bubble. I'm gonna, that's a that I always have this up as like my visual support to remind myself to open it so I will actually see if people are using it. As I said our monthly theme for August interdependence. And so various aspects of the collective learning and unlearning that we do here at brain club around what what community looks like and how how we exist in community interrelated with people and all of the, the complications that are involved in achieving interdependent community. One thing I'm just gonna say because I'm really excited about this save the date for August 29 our book chat this month, the rainbow brain by Sandhya Menon. We actually were fortunate enough to be able to hire Sandhya to present because of the time difference. She's in Australia. It's a, it's a pre recorded asynchronous presentation but I interviewed her a couple months ago, a couple months ago couple weeks ago, and it's amazing and anyway so she's reading her own book for us on the 29th so save guest author. Yes, so cool, so cool. So, anyway, here we go. I'm learning the myths of independence. I'm going to try something. They're really done before I like pulled these kind of ridiculous video clips they are here like ridiculous on purpose. So I'm just bear with me we were having some technical glitchiness a little while ago so maybe they won't even work we'll see. The idea was to try to capture messages, these common messages. Steve Steve says how'd you know I need these particular topics right now it's because we all need this particular topics now it's like at all times you need these things so I'm so glad I'm so glad you're here. I think you get the point right like, so I think, like, this is so rewarded, you know, work real hard make a lot of friends. I, I can do the thing I'm responsible I can focus I can do it myself like this message is so out there, or and you know when you really think about it, this starts really early. We'll see if this video works any better. Yeah and as Steve says pull yourself up by your bootstraps right exactly. At what age though are they considered grown up enough to start being independent? And what are some things you can do to help encourage your little ones to become more independent? We're going to dive into the topic of independence in this video, but before we do do give this video a thumbs up and subscribe to our YouTube channel for more parenting videos like this. First of all let's explore the benefits of introducing independence at an early age. One of the most important benefits is that it allows children to learn how to do things for themselves, which serves as a great foundation. It teaches them that they can accomplish tasks without help and this builds their self confidence. Self independence also prepares children for the challenges of life they might face later on, such as moving away from home and living. All right, have we seen enough. So, yeah, right exactly. So, I'm, yeah right so working on that because it's a myth. That's exactly right Steve it's a myth. It's not a thing. And so last, last, last clip. We can do things for ourselves we've learned to be resourceful and creative over the years and independence is one of those qualities that we that we treasure is perhaps even something that has been nurtured since we were young children. And we do we you know we tell children to be independent you know do things by yourself now go walk you know to take your bike and go around the block it's okay now. You can go to a movie by yourself and these sort of extra additional benefits are kind of seen as a value reward for independence doing things on your own. And I, you know, I think that's a good quality I mean it teaches us to be strong and and resilient. But I wonder if in some ways we have become too focused on independence and not enough focus on interdependence. We're all connected. And I think one of the one of the great benefits of the system of the situation we're facing with the with the with this pandemic and it's not you know there's not many benefits but one is that we're learning how to see how we're connected to each other. Because we've been put in situations where we cannot get together. We cannot, you know, socialize. We realize now how much we do depend on other people and not just on people it goes way beyond that. And one of our bloggers Riley Gibson wrote this article is cool. Alright, I think we get the concept there too. So I, I wonder for someone to read Sarah's comment. Unlike that video saying independence prepares them for life challenges I feel like it prepares them for a life of trying to handle everything on your own, and not reach out for help when they need it, not a message I want to send my kids. Yep. Yes, exactly. So I wonder. I just, I just wonder what what reactions or thoughts are coming up for anyone so far around narratives of independence that that that maybe you you you've grown up with or that you've you you see out there in the world. I think there's so many different kinds of messages that we get. And sometimes it's very, I mean, especially here is very cultural. But I think there are some kinds of guidance that we provide that are helpful and not. I think the worst one is being the emotional independence that is being promoted like emotional independence can be such a toxic thing. Because we end up like negating our own needs in that. And I think that's one of the most critical things that we can give to our children, especially in each other. Yeah, you know, it's not really talked about but I think that's one of the things that should be discussed when we talk about interdependent interdependence. Christina and I think, you know, connected to that like the idea that, you know, already at toddler hood people are talking about self regulation skills, people of all ages, including me. I need other nervous systems to co-regulate like a lot of the day. That's just normal. Any thoughts about narratives of independence? I remember. Well, it's still very much part of my life now but it was always this just figure it out. Just figure it out and you can do this and everyone else is struggling, but you know, you have to do like it was not a choice, you know, you can figure it out. I'm still figuring it out. What? What are you talking about? Totally. That resonates with me a lot Cynthia and I think, I think, like with anything else, I think about those like early messages that get so hardwired. And, you know, they're common. They're really common. And so, you know, if somebody grows up having been told, you know, you just figure it out, you know. Just do the thing because that's what they were taught as little kids and it's just, you know, it's intergenerationally leading to, I think, really bad impact on mental health for so many of us. When, you know, yeah, we can figure it out. We can do the thing a lot of the time at a cost, at a cost of that internalized, like internalized ableism. We'll talk more about that and I think it's next week or the week after that's the topic of brain club, but it's just the invalidation and I see a several of you are commenting about gaslighting in the chat. Exactly. And Elizabeth says linked with ideas of independence. I think of the messages that all the elders have internalized which is quote, not be a burden. And I always feel like feeling like a burden is such a gross perversion of how you feel about yourself and how one gives and receives love. Yes. Yes. Right, because if you did not think that you were supposed to be connected to and depend on other humans. If that wasn't the premise. That puts you at increased risk of thinking that having needs makes you a burden, and then the all of the impact of that, that premise. And I think, I think, um, yeah, I forgot I was going to say. Elizabeth says, I'm struggling with needing to ask my wife how I did in social situations because I just can't tell. Right, there's so many of us who have grown up, having a social situation and then afterwards getting feedback that like something happened and that was not the way we perceived it, or receive the message that there's like, you know, a right way to have been in that social situation and that's not how we did it. There's like levels of what what leads to that. But, you know, quote, if I try to be independent I beat the crap of myself at 3am right it's this, you know, rumination of like, did I do it like, or, you know, what we hear from a lot of people is that after a situation after a situation happens, people go home and they're like replaying the situation and wondering wondering you know did I did I do the thing. You know, what did that facial expression mean what did that what does that silence mean, you know, all of it because those are that those were all like survival strategies. If you've had an access need to be picking up on all these cues because you're interacting with people who don't mean what they say and say what they mean. It looks like that's resonating with Amy also. Jack says there's a certain. Yeah, sorry, go ahead, Sylvia. Sorry, I was going to jump in and say I've been finding more and more that there's, I'm not being told, and I haven't been told. And I find that like toddlers where they parallel play. I just find myself parallel playing through life. And I don't know. And then I wonder why well I didn't get invited to this party and I didn't, you know, you see it on Facebook or you see oh they all went there but I wasn't given the go because I, you know, I may have said something or may have done something or may have not done something or, you know, but but but nobody says anything. No one will tell you. So you have no way of knowing. Right, you have no way of knowing or so so so so so it's, you know, all of those examples you gave Cynthia that resonates with me so much throughout my life. And the ghosting of like people just disappearing of like you don't know why I guess it was something I said and did but you still don't know why and so you don't know like what to not repeat, but like maybe you might repeat it anyway because maybe it's not your person there's not your person and you know all of it Sierra, your, your sounds not connecting it's doing the thing with your headphone there you go. Sorry, that was my fault. I think that ties back for me to what you were saying about the goal of not being a burden for people I know working in hospice that was like the most common goal for people was I don't want to be a burden to my family and if you talk to the family you go no of course we want to keep this person at home we want to take care of them that's our goal and that but disconnect because people don't know I say what they mean is that disconnect those. Oh people aren't telling me that I'm doing something wrong with people also aren't telling me that they want to help take care of me or they want to help be in this interdependent relationship with me. Yes. Right. All that. Jack says there's a certain hypocrisy in pushing the idea of independence, given how many spaces are not accessible. And there's a link link in the chat about an example of an accessibility, but there are several articles that talk about accessibility and who is able to move independently through society right move independently through society right it's it's. Yeah. I agree with that. I don't know, like, you know, the. I mean it's it's it's it's multiple messages that don't. I think really acknowledge the idea that it's not like that access is so much more than doing the like, like being accessible does not mean doing the thing by yourself and I think that often it's referred to that those things like that that's like how accessibility is defined. But it depends. So to push independence while not also pushing for a truly accessible society is baffling right so both of those so what I said and that's not the angle you took it I'm sorry for like commenting before reading the second part of your question both of those things are true. So, so in what world are do we have, you know, the toddlers growing up, you know, be getting getting those over rehearsed neural pathways of like, you did the thing by yourself. Yeah, you peep by yourself. Yeah. Like, but but but we're not, we're not also questioning how so many members of our community cannot have full and meaningful participation of all the things. And I'm going to come back to David's question, because maybe Christine is going to answer it will say, I think the key to really understand your nervous system and what puts it out of its threshold. Right so essentially to know your access needs access needs being what anyone needs for full and meaningful participation, we all have access needs regardless of you know what type of brain we have. So, if that happens, like when the trigger comes essentially that requires help that requires support that requires me, maybe co regulation maybe you know some involvement from another nervous system. Our kids if we have them having a PDA kid means that they really need me to not be involved in things sometimes, but I still need to monitor their threshold of tolerance and let them know I will help them when they need it and it's such a balance and so complicated for all of us. And you know I can say as the parent of a PDA or my PDA or is is the opposite like PDA is not even you know of a homogenous group, you know my PDA or needs my nervous system to co regulate at all times, or someone's nervous doesn't need to be mine it's it's actually not usually mine. But, but anyway, I think what I want to when I want to come back to David's question, I'm asking about what's involved in co regulating our nervous systems. A great book that I recommend for like a really, I think comprehensive look at co regulation is self read by Stuart Shanker and talks about how beef. You know, there's things in your environment that are going to impacted. There are things in the, you know, the physical cues emotional cues cognitive cues social cues, and these cues are going to either stress you out stress your nervous system out or, or be soothing to your nervous system and so we say regulated we're not necessarily talking about being calm regulated doesn't mean calm it means just that you have a bit you have access to your cortex. And so you know whether that's calm or not. It's that when your limbic system is triggered. You don't have full access to the thinking part of your brain to the cortex. It's taken offline. And so, in early childhood, Dr Shanker describes the concept of the inter brain, the idea that the infant and the parent, like, essentially share a nervous system. So that when the infants nervous system is impacted by the cues, it's the, it's like 100% dependent on the parents nervous system to give cues of safety regulation. Well, what I can tell you is that as the as the parent of a former infant. I didn't do that, because I was so dysregulated by my infants dysregulation. It's like this the loudest sound I've ever heard in my entire life right, and that like I felt like my brain was on fire I didn't know anything about my own brain I didn't know anything about regulation. I just knew that my brain was going to explode. And so I'm queuing on safety at the time in which the infants feeling unsafe right so like that's what happens like so much like so much. And so you know now I have a narrative for that but like back then I felt really shameful about that. So anyway, Dr Shanker then further describes that as a kind of the bridge between interbrain and self regulation is the idea of co regulation, which is that to nervous systems impact each other they interact for good or for bad. And so, you know if I'm in a space, and someone else is dysregulated. I, if I have access to my cortex, I might be able to use my cortex to plan a strategy for supporting that person whether it's my child or my patient or my friend or whomever. But if I don't have access to my cortex. I, my energy in that in that dyad may actually make the person's dysregulation worse that happened this morning in my house. So it's it's it's it's about just sort of acknowledging that nervous systems are interacting at all times, there can be co regulation there can be co dysregulation. And it's anyway thank you thank you Elizabeth for for for for the me to I always love a good me to. So, as it relates to thank you Alicia so that sounds like that's resonating with Alicia also. And I think I'm interdependence from a regulation piece is really a topic we should, we should be thinking and talking about. So, you know, young kids like elementary school kids are already receiving the message in, you know, preschool right of like, you should be able to self regulate you should be able to, you know, make yourself calm, sit down do the thing. Without like acknowledging the brain science around co regulation, and the brain science around co dysregulation you got lots of nervous systems in a space. At any given time if there's like 30 nervous systems in a room what are the odds that everyone's going to be regulated like zero right. I know several of you are educators. Anyway, so just just for thinking through that so like in my house, when there's like three nervous systems in a room and there's chaos like what the heck does that mean for classrooms full of sweet little loves. Plus, plus an educator who likely is not having their access needs med, and you know, can't eat can't drink can't pee, you know let alone like sensory processing and cognitive demands and like all of it. And then that's the norm, that's the norm of like, look around everyone else is doing the thing, everyone else is like sitting down like, why are you're feeling so big you're too much you're so much suck it up get it together. And you know, decades of over rehearsal pathways, then as an adult, you're impacted by a queue for your environment, have a big response, and then what it's the, it's, it's, it's that that that internalized narrative of like I'm too much I shouldn't be doing this I should be able to be calm, or you know and that that plays out in, you know, whether someone is a parent and have that narrative of like I should be calm because grown ups are calm, like that that needs to be unlearned. Or, you know, I flipped my lid at work. I'm not supposed to do that because grown ups are supposed to be calm. Yeah, that needs to be unlearned. It's like, well, you wouldn't have flipped your lid if your axis needs room that. So what, what, what, what do we do. Are there, are there nervous systems in our environments who can be dependent upon when of course they have access to their cortex for co regulation and like the co regulate like interdependence and co regulation I think are you know like really into interrelated concepts. And I just want to want to create a little space for for for folks we haven't heard from yet if, if you want to share about how this conversation is landing on your brain. It's funny I was so dysregulated at brain club having nothing to do with brain club just having to do with like flood and you know everything that I like. And like the technology got messed up it was like a whole thing anyway, so I like, stop really being able to coherently speak with mouth words and so I just like didn't talk, and it was, there were lots of nervous systems who gave feedback around like that actually really worked for me because it was like, there was spaciousness that I could enter the conversation so anyway, I'd love to try to create that without being dysregulated myself. And by the silence I'm not dysregulated by sounds I love silence. I just, I forget to create it. Thanks, need us so you just as it's such a huge step forward for us recently to get to having some ability to co regulate with our nine year old PDA or a lot of people and when I said need I met need and David and you're both both both contributing to the sentiment. A lot of people don't understand how much it can take to get there. I'm sure someday he'll be able to do more independently. I know that that's not going to happen until we've had a good long stretch about up co regularity. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And Alicia says I'm a talker and I learned so much about leaving space from that. That's awesome. Elizabeth's wondering about from a medical or developmental standpoint are there people who never get to solve regulation. That's an interesting question. I think that I think that would be really hard to answer in like a pure, like vacuum sense, because I think that like what's going on in the environment. You know, even someone with robust self regulation skills may not always be able to access them. Like you can have a skill, but not be able to access it because you don't have access to your cortex, if in fact, and we talk a lot about this with our patients. There are and you can, I will, I'll pull up in the chat. There's a brain club from October of 2022. Our guest presenter was Hannah Bloom, occupational therapist on our board of directors, talking about like top down regulation. Like you think your way through the regulation like cognitive reframing like I can, I can do hard things like mantras like that or you know that thought that I'm having it's, it's, it's unhelpful so I can change the way I'm thinking about that and now I have a different emotional response. Those are top down strategies. And a lot of us overly rely on top down strategies, bottom up. So like in your body can, you know connected to brain. A lot of us didn't grow up learning those are practicing those. And so when top down regulation fails, we're like up a creek, because we don't have any other skills. Because when you like like this morning, for example. So there's like chaos in my house and like everybody screaming and like, I have like a, you know, it's interesting to think about like given how dysregulated I get a lot of the time like, I actually like a robust set of self regulation skills. And it's just that I lose access to my cortex. And it when I lose access to my cortex I can't use those top down strategies. Nobody can. Nobody can use top down strategies when they are too far gone in the dysregulation channel, sort of better answer that question around like are there nervous systems that can never reach self regulation and it really just depends and even if you like reach this. It's not like a like a one and done like it's not like a linear developmental hierarchy of like, I achieve self regulation and like now I'm good. Like, I, I reached self regulation and like I need, I need co regulation like most of the day. And there's, I also don't think as an autistic person that I self regulate all at once. Yeah, sometimes it's a process like regulation in a moment, but it's like coping. I need my partner for other kinds of co regulation, right and like maybe, maybe you can, or maybe a person can buy a little time with a strategy, but that's assuming the queue and the environment stops. It doesn't often stop. So there's like that piece to. Oh thank you Sarah thanks for putting the link in the chat. Oh, Sarah is queuing me that there's a comment that I missed. Okay, yes. Um, oh, I think I read that that I read that that I catch up to it eventually. Um, Amy's asking what my co regulation looks like when it works well or when it doesn't work well. When it works well. All right, let me give an example. Um, so like, um, today. Well, maybe I'll just maybe I'll speak in generalities. Um, I have a number of people who are energetically safe bucket people so that if I am dysregulated, and I have enough access to my cortex to initiate contact. Um, I might like reach out because they're probably going to give me some kind of me too and that's going to be like a top down thing that's not my thing. Or I might for example, like yesterday, yesterday, Luna and I we had conflicting access needs and resulted co regulation, co dysregulation I mean, and we were spending time with with someone who energetically is is a safe bucket person for both of us. And just energetically this is a bottom up just energetically that person being in the space at the all brains belong office being at the space with us, like, was regulating nervous system to nervous system that that co regulation but I'd love to hear from others about what that what co regulation looks like for you. When it or not, or or failed co regulation any any of the above. I'm just also going to read Steve's comment in our self contained classroom. Um, and so by self contained classroom for those who don't know Steve are you referring to a special education setting with students with high support needs who are not included in a mainstream classroom is that is that's how you define that right. Students could repeat top down self regulation strategies like like a parade ground exercise but when the actual situation came up, all bets were off. Well, that was needs with me to um, that that I have all kinds of things that like I can talk about a brain club but like in the thick of it when I don't access to my cortex I can't talk about anything because these are cortex things. And I think like what what I often think about is and I see it you know I see it everywhere I see it like, you know feedback from educators about my patients I see it in my house like it's like often downstairs brain is held to the standards of upstairs is a different part of the brain. The limbic system cannot be the cortex. They are different, they are separate. Sarah says I think of co regulation as a calming presence. It doesn't always mean spoken words, but sometimes it does. I think of it like Brené Brown's breaking down of shame by sharing our story with someone we trust to feel that need to moment. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What I'm interested in is saying that nature is a partner for co regulation. I feel that way more connected to nature than people out of the time. Yeah. And I guess we often think people have to be the ones but my dogs help to know I think that's so common right like that's yes. Thanks for sharing. Amy says, I love that you added when I am able to reach out sometimes that's the most difficult part to reach out I don't know what to say when I am dysregulated and can't talk about it. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Right, especially, especially when for a lot of a lot of people when we are dysregulated we like it's not just the spoken communication that's hard. People may have access to be able to to some form of AC sending a text message to someone for co regulation might might maybe they have access to that. When they don't have access to like making a phone call or asking for help in a you know spoken communication way. It is also like the motor planning aspect of it it's it's more than it's more than like the format of communication it's like, I am frozen. I cannot initiate anything right now. I am. Or I am, or I have a big meltdown, and then I crash afterwards, and then then I can't initiate anything because I am spent right like I think all of those, those things are on the menu, and are on the list of barriers to, you know, making making that, making that connection. And I and as Christina is pointing out, so many people were isolated as children for for being dysregulated you know so you're flipping your lid go to your room. Or, um, the like, oh you're flipping your lid you can't act nicely you can't behave nicely, I'm going to stop talking to you I'm going to give you the silent treatment the frigging silent treatment this is what goes on. Anyway, yeah, timeouts are banned in my house as Christina. Yeah, they're been in my house too. So, one time, I saw Luna, because like Luna doesn't. Luna is not around a traditional education space. I saw her put her toys in timeout. I flipped my lid because like, where'd she see that, like, where did that come from was it like media like is there someone who's interacting with her who uses this language like I mean just like, anyway, um, yeah. It's hard, right because there are, there are healthcare providers who literally teach parents to do that like, you know, parents come looking for help from a healthcare provider. They're, you know, they're so dysregulated looking for help. And an expert tells you this is how you do the thing. Same thing goes with like, you know, responding to all kinds of things sleep related issues or like whatever there's all kinds of advice from professionals. That is, um, not, not based on brain science. And maybe came from a time when the brain science wasn't known. And then like persisted. Another really great book is called Beyond behaviors by Dr. Mona Della hook. I will pull up a link to that as well. Amy, I feel like I want to speak into something which is like, I don't necessarily know exactly how to say it. But I think when I was a child, there was so much dysregulated relation in my house. I think there's probably a lot more, you know, neurodiversity in there than anyone recognized. And there was a way that that I was so overwhelmed that I overrode but in that overriding I would try and regulate or tune to the different people. And so I it's interesting that my dysregulation became the way to try and create regulation with like, you know, and so there was like no real accurate attunement to me as a really sensitive child. And so it's been such a confusion in my life of like, what is co regulation, who's safe to co regulate with, but there's also the sort of like context specific way I think I'm supposed to be in every environment, which is like not dysregulation. And it's a huge part of my masking tendencies is not being able to admit, or know how that because I completely appear to be regulated, when inside, it's like, I'm terrified, or I'm like, dissociated even. And I just wondered if other people felt that like in their masking tendencies, like, masking dysregulation, if that was a way that you can be so sensitive to your environment that you're overwhelmed but you could actually be be causing regulation for other people in your environment. Yeah, that resonates with me and cat is that in the chat that that's resonating with cat also. And Christine is also agreeing, Alicia says in my family we experienced the dynamic of competing access needs when one partner loses ability to communicate or initiate and the other partner feels trauma triggered by disconnection and feeling of distance. Oh that resonates with me like so much Cynthia did I see a hand. I did I'm just not I'm not a fast typer so I was. I don't want to keep talking but it's like I'm not that fast. Yeah so so growing up I had a very boisterous family and I was adopted into it. So I was already kind of, you know, different, and then having all the sensory stuff going on, but I was kind of trained or training myself to fit in and to blend and to be part of this, this, you know, very loud family, but I just needed to, you know, kind of get away and now as an adult talking about the masking. I was like a chameleon where I can go into these different, you know, spaces and become what that space is. And then but then I have to like, Oh, I'm having a panic attack. Hello, I'm not really supposed to be here. I need to remove myself. So, you know, like I was invited to go the movie, but I can't go now because this movie theater is not listening to, you know, they need to turn the volume down. I'm finally able to say okay that was just regulating for me. I can't do it. I'm missing out on the social piece that I desperately need, but I have to choose myself first. So like they're there like the layers of the masking and that kind of chameleon thing that that I find happens from having that family background. Yes, right. There are so many people who upon as adults starting to learn about their brains. They identify that the face they put out into the world is is masking. And there were there were also times where that strategy, which for many people is involuntary subconscious it just happens. To produce that chameleon, you know, seeming adaptability there are people who derive a lot of pride from from from that, and then that can be really disorienting for people when they're like, Oh, that that that's masking. Oh, like what what am I if not my mask. Kat says I masked as a wonderful listener because I was actually mute so just regulated. Yeah, I learned to go with it and just not and look like I was listening intently. Yeah. Sierra. I think I can say Amy that really resonated with me to and I think, I think that's one of the reasons why it's, I don't know super common but it can be fairly common for neurodivergent people to be pretty good at working in high stress situations where you're regulating other people's emotions. I'm thinking like working in an ER is generally full of lots of neurodivergent people and it's because you're a lot of times you're really good at learning to mask in situations where everybody else is dysregulated and you've learned to be able to be the only one who's common regulated and be that regulating presence for other people. Yeah. And there are also many nervous systems who work in environments like that where they, the mask is to appear calm and cool and collected and so good at regulating the people but like inside your brain is going to explode. So like, yeah, yeah, that was me. So, yeah, so there's that also. And then you get home and explode it or you get it to everybody else. Yeah, yes. Yes. But then back to that narrative of like you should be able to regulate, you know, you're a grown up, what's wrong with you you need, you know, anyway all of that, as opposed to your access needs were not met. You know, the system felt unsafe, and you, yeah, the word should comes up a lot, Sarah says in the chat. Exactly. And so like when we think about, I'll save my point because I won't forget it because Sarah's got my visual support for me, Weston. I guess it would be an interesting time to chime in to say that I grew up as the kid of a doctor who was one of the he was an ER surgeon for a lot of my childhood. And he was that type, sort of regulated person and I, as an adult I've, and even since coming into ABB I've started recognizing that he has a lot of ABD characteristics, just as a personality and even the way he his thoughts are structured and I'm even just in this conversation recognizing like, oh, he was, he was what we're talking about he's this sort of always in control, like he actually is the person you want to be with an emergency because he has such a great sense of control and command but I'm also kind of tying this to Amy's comment as Amy's husband, you know, and as in the conversation about co regulation and sort of the symmetry of my tendency to sort of have an environmental need for calmness. And, you know, sometimes the way that that interacts with Amy's need to actually express outwardly and this, the symmetry of her dysregulation actually activating my dysregulator feeling like in an unsafe environment and so sometimes that's like, that's probably the central part of our relationship around co regulation because I think, when either one of us are really well regulated we both do a good job of co regulating and even recognizing, oh maybe, you know, one or the other of us are in a better position to to be the manager and the other one being in the meat, having a need but when we're both under times of stress and that, that breaks down, you know, like, I have a need to be in a space with a, you know, a non emotional kind of space and, you know, she might have a need to be in a very emotional space or maybe sometimes vice versa but I do think it's, I'm just, I guess I'm just saying that as a general thought, connecting a lot of different parts of my life into the idea of regulation and co regulation. Weston I have chills, I have chills, I am having a real emotional response to your reflection like this is why we do brain club. This is, this is why we do this, because the whole idea is that when you develop an awareness around your own access needs. Well, along the edge of these of other people. Um, that is what allows you to have full and meaningful relationships right because I think what we see a lot is that we have people who are like, you know, they, they start learning about their access needs they realize that a lot of their needs are connected, they, you know, maybe have some language to describe it, but then the person they're trying to interact with all day does not have awareness does not have the awareness of their own needs. It's, it's, it's, it's a lot of people will come and they'll be like, you know, even in our medical practice they'll come and they'll be like, you know, how do I explain this thing to my partner like we need to have the partner learn about their own brain. Amy. Um, just to, to respond to that. It's what's interesting to me is that Western is the first safe person in my entire life to actually be able to express. And so it's been interesting to like explore what is the impact that my expression because I need to find it and I need to be able to scream like I am not the problem like I can't be the problem. And Western's like, but if you're screaming that at me, I can't like help you like I'm losing me like I'm losing ground and, and to recognize there is a side effect to the emotionality and how big it gets and not that will always be perfect. But there, it's just ironic that like Western literally is the first, the first person that I actually felt like I could say what was my interior world was. And so it has been just this kind of roller coaster of, of how to, how do the ABB is the first time that I've actually realized fully that Western can start expressing like, I have access need here, I actually literally cannot do this with you. I have to totally opt out and I'm like, you know, and so we've had to then come back, but it's, it's so helpful to have a community where we get to start learning through other people's experiences and then start saying like, Oh, that's, that's how we are and I want to not be the one that's like a lot of person. But, but I am so I want to own that here, you know. Amy, thank you so much and you know I really appreciate both Amy and Western you sharing sharing your perspectives on on the same situation I think that's just like it's amazing to watch that. Because that's, that's, that's, that's, that's what's possible. And I think that, you know, as, as when two people have self self awareness. Then you, while you both have access to your cortex you, you have an opportunity to zoom out and make a plan for negotiating the conflicting access needs. The next time it happens because it will happen again it will keep happening. It's really like, when both parties have access to their cortex. Then, then, then all things are possible. Well parties have access to their cortex and awareness of their needs that's the recipe for like, moving forward, when those ingredients are not met. It's really very hard and there's several several comments in the in the chat, you're really appreciating you sharing your story and feeling lost alone in in in hearing what you've the beautiful vulnerability that that you've demonstrated. So, you know, I think that that's, that's, that's a really nice segue into next next brain club. Actually, I'm going to, before I speak out of out of turn, I want to make sure that it's actually yeah it's actually exactly exactly next week. So it is communicating and negotiating your access needs how perfect. So, thank you all so much for being part of this. I thought was an amazing conversation. And we look forward to seeing you next week. Bye.