 We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. These words from the Declaration of Independence are familiar to many of us, and yet it took 143 years for women to get the right to vote and 189 years for black people to get the right to vote. And still today, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are still only words for many people. Here in Boston, life expectancy varies by 30 years, depending on where you live. In Roxbury, with many poor and black people, life expectancy is 59 years. In the back bay, wealthy and mostly white, life expectancy is 91 years. It's tough to have liberty when you are in prison. The United States incarcerates 716 people for every 100,000 people. Our rate of incarceration is more than five times higher than most countries in the world. Millions of people in our country don't have health care, a decent job, good education, a home they can afford, and that makes it pretty hard to pursue happiness. So on this show, you are going to meet people who are making it possible to have life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. People today who are making the words of the Declaration of Independence come true. Hi, welcome. My name's Michael Jacoby Brown, and I'm your host today with We Hold These Truths. And today we're really lucky and privileged and honored to have with us Carlos Sores, who's a driver with some of these rideshare companies in Boston and really across the United States. Carlos, welcome. Thank you. So it's really nice for you to come in today. I know you're busy because you're driving a lot. Can you tell us a little bit about your background, where you were born, and what it was like while you were growing up? I was born in Iazores, Portugal, and I was there until the age of 14, and I seen a lot of struggles with my father when I was growing up. He lost his job, and at one time he was sitting at the table crying, trying to figure out where to get money for food. Then we came to America, and we struggled in the beginning. It was only my father working, my mother had a hard time finding a job, but we managed to stay and make a living and went to school, and then I started working, and I started seeing a lot of things in a workplace that it's heartbreaking because some people were making good money, especially in the office, and when it was to the workers, they were just making enough to get by. Where was this? Where were you working when you saw that? I was working in a company in Rhode Island. I don't want to say the name, but the company was, the workers were making six twenty-five an hour, and the vice president of the company was making three hundred thousand a year and had a one-month paid vacation to Europe, and we were trying to get a union in it to help the workers, and they started telling things that, oh, you're averaging fourteen bucks an hour because you get paid holidays and you get certain benefits, but there was another company, one city over, that was doing the same thing we were, and the workers were making fourteen bucks an hour, but the problem with that company was most of the workers were Portuguese and Hispanic, didn't speak much English, so they were lied to, and when it came time to the election for the union, the company said a few votes for the union, we're going to shut the doors down and move to North Carolina, and even though it's illegal to do that, but the workers didn't know because they don't speak English, they're immigrants, and they took advantage of the situation and lied to them, so that, and then thirty days after that, not even thirty days after that, the union lost the election, I got fired. You got fired? Yeah. Because? Because I was fighting for the union. And where did you get those values for? Some people might just say, well, if anyone else, I'll just get mine and I'll be okay. From my parents and religion, I lived by, I was born and raised Catholic, and I lived by the words of Jesus, do unto others as you want unto yourself, so when I'm a driver and I treat my customers like they are my friends and I respect them, and I try not to say anything to hurt the feelings of the nationality or religion, matter of fact, I kind of enjoy talking about that stuff because I love history and geography, so I'm always curious about what country to come from, what religion they are, and their backgrounds, and that's why I've been a consistent five-star driver for a long time. How did you get interested in that people's history and background, religion? I started by watching the history channel, the learning channel, and I started getting to learn about history, and then I find that history is based on people, so I started finding that people are fascinating, everybody, we're all the same because we're all human, but we are all different because we all have different backgrounds, different cultures, different beliefs, and I find that very fascinating. So you've worked in those factories and you've done other kinds of work now because you've been doing this, you've been working for quite a while, what else have you done before you started driving? Oh, wow, I got a long list. I'm a so-called jack-of-all-trades master of none. I've been a baker, a line cook, a construction, a CNC operator, a mill operator, insurance salesman, financial advisor, truck driver, delivery driver, and I love driving and I love talking to people, so I guess this is the one that fits me because I always tell my customers, I'm not working, I'm getting paid to enjoy myself. Yeah, well, you still have to do a lot of work to get people from point A to point B. Oh, yeah, and I keep the car always nice and clean. I go to the car wash almost every day, I vacuum the car every day and I wipe the seats and everything down every day, because I got to present myself as a professional driver. How did you get into driving? I started, when I started driving the car and I started loving it and then my days off I would just get in the car and drive around to see areas and then I also, one of the reasons I was happy to come to America, because I had just seen the movie Smoke and the Bandit and I wanted to be a truck driver and when I came to America I actually went to a truck driver training school and I drove a truck for a little while. Oh really? How long ago for these ride share companies, we won't really mention their names, although you can if you want. I started driving with Uber part time in September of 17 and I started driving with Lyft part time April of 18, but I went full time at the end of April of 2020. I found out I had back problems and my doctor said it would be a good idea to change careers. Your back problem doesn't stop you from driving much? No, because I have control of my time. I can, when I start getting uncomfortable I can shut up the app and you know stand outside the car and you know I hate it. So what's been your experience driving for Uber and Lyft? The best experience is meeting people and I do make decent money, but I think it could have been better, especially right now with the gas prices being so high. Right, over five dollars an hour, five dollars a gallon I mean. And I felt insulted when Uber and Lyft giving us like fifty-five cents per customer per ride when sometimes we get an hour drive with customers and that's like twenty, thirty miles. Could you explain that giving fifty-five cents, what do you mean? It's a gas surcharge per customer because the gas prices are so high that they're trying to make a look good by giving us fifty-five cents extra per customer. Per ride? Per ride. Wow. So if you get an hour ride per customer it's like you're spending two or three gallons so it's like you're losing money. Right. Right. So when you started, what was it like driving for them when you started four or five years ago and started full-time a couple years ago? Well when I was doing part-time I was doing mostly in Rhode Island and the average pay was, if I average an hour it would be like fifteen dollars an hour. But then you have to keep up your car insurance, gas, payments. Yeah, the good thing is all of that is, you know, tax deductible, the gas and all that stuff. But you have to put it out of your pocket when you're driving and you put a lot of mileage in your car so you're putting a lot of wear and tear in your vehicle so the car is not going to last as long as a normal person has. Right. You're driving a lot. Now Uber and Lyft are saying that you're an independent contractor. How do you see what you're actually doing? Are you really independent or what's it really like to be in the driver's seat? Well I'm not an independent contractor because an independent contractor, when you go bid for a job, you control how much you're going to get paid. We don't control how much we get paid. We don't control, it's like if we choose not to get a customer, if we cancel the ride, they threaten us to... They threaten you? What do you mean? Yeah, they send a message through the app that, oh you've canceled the ride, you got to, you know, if you cancel too many times you'll be deactivated. What does that mean, be deactivated? It means they will shut you off and you will no longer be able to drive. Wow. I mean if you're an independent contractor you should have the right to choose how much you get paid and everything. The only thing I have control is when to turn on the app and when to shut off the app. Right. Other than that I have no control of anything. Right. You're not really an independent contractor. Right. So how would you like it to be? I mean as a driver you're not really, you say you're not really an independent contractor. Uber and Lyft say you are. What's really going on here? They want to keep us as independent contractors because that way they are not responsible for like to help us with medical insurance, paid sake leave, vacation time, which is something that there's a group of us called Massachusetts Driver United working on it. We want to have a thing called driver's bill of rights so we can have those rights and they say if they make us like having all those rights they're going to make us employees which are going to have to have a set schedule. That's not true because they just use that as an excuse because if they can come up with an algorithm to have drivers to pick up customers and all that. They can keep track of what the drivers work and depending on how many hours you work a week you qualify for benefits. And you still be able to have flexibility of time. But because most of the drivers are recent immigrants and they don't know the laws and so they lie to them and because they're cooperation they are to make money. So they don't care about the drivers. If you're not making money for them they'll shut you off. What makes you say they don't care about the drivers? Where have you seen that? Well, when the pandemic started happening they were saying if the drivers continue driving, if you get sick, we'll give you medical leave rate. In December of 2020 I was in a hospital and then I was home for another almost two weeks and then I was home for another four weeks. With COVID? With COVID. And for that whole time they gave me $250. $250 was your health benefit for six weeks? I don't, and I have to pay insurance, health insurance out of my pocket. Well, actually unfortunately I have to depend on mass health which I don't think it's fair the taxpayers have to help me get medical insurance when these companies are making millions of dollars a profit a year if not billions. And they tried to pass a referendum like the one they tried recently in Massachusetts in California. And how much did they spend on the advertising in California, do you know? From what I heard on the news they spent $220 million in California. And they spent already close to $20 million over here in Massachusetts. To pass this referendum? Yeah, which the Supreme Court knocked it down saying was unconstitutional. The Massachusetts Supreme Court, yeah. So they, but they're going to come back and try to pass something else. They're going to change the words and make it look good and because they're going to try, you know, they want to make a profit and they don't care where they get from. It's like that movie Blood Diamonds, you know? They don't care about the workers, they care about the bottom line. And so that's why we need to have a voice. We need to have the driver's bill of rights. Right, and what would be in that driver's bill of rights from, you know, you're a driver, you're in the driver's seat. What would you like to see for yourself and other rideshare drivers? Paid sick leave. I mean, if you average 40 hours a week, whatever you average for that 40 hours, you should get paid sick leave, help with medical insurance. I mean, I'm not saying 100% paid, but make it easy for us to have insurance without having to depend on the government. So actually, I and other taxpayers are subsidizing Uber and Lyft because you have to be on mass health, which we subsidize. So in a sense, we're subsidizing Uber and Lyft to make profit. Interesting. Because you are many drivers, as far as you know, on mass health? I don't know, but I heard there's 200,000 drivers in Massachusetts. And at least half of them should be full-time. And if they don't have other insurance, and because in Massachusetts mandatory insurance, they're going to end up being on mass health. So what else would you like to see in a driver's bill of rights? Paid vacation, like do a PTO where if you work so many hours per year, you qualify for a week or two week paid vacation. So we can have a normal life like everybody else instead of working seven days a week, 52 weeks a year. You're working seven days a week? Wow. And tell me about this deactivation. What's going on? Can you say you can be deactivated if you refuse a certain customer? Well, if you cancel a few times, they threaten you with deactivation. And if the customer complains, even if it's not true, they deactivate you. Like a couple of times, I got deactivated. One time, I had a call for Dunkin' Donuts. And I got there, I push arrived. And the customer wanted to cancel the ride. But he didn't want to pay the cancellation fee. So they sent a message to the company saying I was not wearing a mask. Because at the time, it was mandatory because of COVID. And they deactivated it for four hours. I was deactivated because I had to convince them, it's like I always wear a mask. Right, right. And even now, when it's not mandatory, when I'm driving, I wear a mask. Right, and this customer lied and said. Yeah, so he didn't have to pay the cancellation fee. Right, and do you have any recourse? Is there any impartial appeal that you can appeal? No, the only reason they put me back on was because I threatened with a lawyer. Oh, how many people do you think would know to say something like that? You're, I don't think, you tell me what you think. I don't think too many people would do that. And I don't know, but that's one of the ways I try to fight back because we have no other recourse. You have no other recourse. And I know you're working to try to form some kind of organization or union of drivers. Can you tell me a little bit about that? How are you doing that? Yeah, we're called the Massachusetts Drivers United. And we also work with other groups. We're trying to, like I said, pass the bill of rights. And we're trying to, once we get there, we're going to try to see if we can have a union so we can have a voice. One of the things we want is have an independent review board when a driver gets canceled, you know, to have a review to see why you got canceled. If he got canceled because he did something wrong, then by all means, yeah, deactivate him, you know, shut him off. But if he didn't do anything wrong, then he should not be, he should be back on the app and compensated for the time loss. Right. So Lyft is saying, or Uber is saying they'll do that, but it won't be run by the state. It'll be run by Uber and Lyft. I mean, if they have a... They say, now they say that we can argue if we get shut up, but unless you threaten them with the lawyer, you don't get activated again because I was at a hub one time and this driver was asking, how long am I going to be deactivated? And they said, well, you complain too many times, so you shut up for life, no more. Really? Because the driver complained? Complained too many times or shut up. I didn't exactly hear the problem, but from what I heard was the girl saying was, he complained too many times. Wow. And she started saying other stuff, but I didn't quite hear the rest. Right. And what would you like customers, people like me, that occasionally or people that use Uber Lyft, what would you like them to know about you and perhaps other drivers? We are here trying to make a living for our families and trying to do the best we can. I mean, yeah, just like every other industry, there are good drivers and there are bad drivers, but most of us are pretty good people and some of us are quiet, some of us talk too much. You're laughing, right. I'm one of them that talk too much. How do you talk just enough, I think, Carlos, that's great. Is there anything else you think the public should know about what it's like from your seat and the driver's seat? Sometimes it can be dangerous and sometimes it can be a good experience. I've been lucky. I've done, between all my accounts, I've done over 9,000 rides. Wow, 9,000 rides, wow. I'd say 99.9% of my customers have been good people, but I treat people with respect. I treat people like my friends, my family, so I try to do the best I can for them and provide service. So I think this whole idea of the gig economy, there's all these other people that are being tried to be made into independent contractors. It could be teachers, nurses, doctors, lawyers, I think in a lot of ways a lot of corporations would like to get rid of the requirement that they pay things you want like vacation, healthcare, sick time, those kinds of things. How do you see it? Do you see that happening? I see it happening in California. Now the nurses are fighting to stay as employees instead of gig workers because then they'll lose benefits. And I also heard that restaurants are trying to do the same thing. So with the waitresses, even though they already don't make much, these companies are seeing what Uber and Lyft is doing and trying to do, so if this keeps going, every company is going to be doing the same thing and then they're going to get away with making a lot of profit and not paying their share, and then the taxpayers are the ones who are going to have to pay for health benefits. Right. So more people become quote independent gig workers. That could be the future of work. If Uber and Lyft keeps passing these laws, yes. So we need to stop them. We need to, you know, I understand companies need to make a profit to stay in business, but they need to take care of their drivers because we're the ones who make money for them. Right. If they don't have drivers, they're not going to be able to make money. But they have so much, you know, a lot of people so much want to do driving because they like the flexibility, so they don't care if some drivers quit. So they just, they think we are disposable. They think you're disposable. Well, Carlos Sars, you're not disposable and I don't think anyone is. But I'm really glad you were able to come on the show. I just want to thank you. I don't know if there's any last thing you want to say because we just have a minute or so left that you think the public should know about your experience or what Uber Lyft and other rideshare companies are trying to do here. We need to be able to tell our congressmen and representatives that we need to have a law to protect the drivers and make us have benefits. Right. Okay. Well, thanks a lot, Carlos. I think what Carlos is pointing out that not only Uber and Lyft and other quote gig workers now need benefits, the economy is not what it was 100, almost 100 years ago in the 1930s when the labor laws were established. Things are different now. So I really appreciate your coming on our show. We hold these truths to explain what it's really like to be a rideshare driver in 2022 and in the years ahead and I just really appreciate your coming here. Thanks a lot, Carlos. Thank you for having me. Yeah, I'm here. I'm Michael Jacoby-Brown. I'm your host of We Hold These Truths and if you have any questions, it's Mass Drivers United. Is that the organization that you're working with? You can find them, I assume, on that thing called the Internet, that thing which some of us know about. I don't know. Is there anything else you wanted to say before we close off? No. No. I appreciate your explaining what it's really like to be in the driver's seat. So again, thank you for tuning in. Again, I'm Michael Jacoby-Brown. I'm your host of We Hold These Truths and we were lucky to have Carlos Sars, our guest who's a rideshare driver with us today and thank you very much for looking in and we hope to see you next time. We're on the air and thanks to Arlington Community Media and all the wonderful people who are here for making all this possible. Thanks a lot.