 are Rabbi, Sephardic Rabbi and the West Bank. Judas, what's going on in Israel right now? Well, there's a lot of COVID news, some new variant or another that's taking up everyone's obsessed with and a lot of vaccinated people are getting it and therefore they're rolling out the third booster vaccination. They're rolling that out really hard. In other news, we won some gold medal and some domestic variation and everyone's euphoric about that. That's the news that I know of. Otherwise, everything is pretty much under control as far as I can tell. Now, one thing I've noticed in the news about Israel is I haven't seen any articles saying that Naftali Bennett is incompetent. I haven't seen anything alleging that. Yes, Naftali Bennett is going to be treated with kid gloves until the threat of the return of BB is gone. BB is wounded tiger but he's still a tiger and the media and the powers that be are absolutely terrified of a return of BB. So, they're going to swallow the pill and they're going to be nice to Bennett who reminds you is the previous head of the Judea and Samaria Council. That means he's considered 5, 10, maybe 15 digits to the right of BB and the left wing media is giving him a free pass because they're terrified of BB. That's what you see. Interesting. So, let's get to our main topic of the Rambam and his 13 essential principles of the Jewish faith which are encapsulated in such Jewish prayers as the Animamim and the Yigdal. The Rambam wrote his 13 principles in his commentary on the Mishnah which he wrote about age 28 to 30 and he wrote it in Arabic. Why did the Rambam write his commentary on the Mishnah in Arabic? The reason he wrote it in Arabic was because the commentary of the Mishnah was designed for the layperson for everyone to understand and it was part of Maimonides lifelong obsession with making the Torah accessible, natural and easy. Take the mystique and the specialization out of it. It shouldn't be an elite thing and by the Torah we don't mean study, we mean knowing how to practice, knowing what to do. So, the Mishnah in Arabic he wanted the regular person to be able to read the Mishnah and understand what's happening and learn Torah from it and at the time Arabic was the most commonly spoken language of the Jews. Okay, so Jews in Poland or in Germany or Eastern Europe I'm sure weren't speaking Arabic but they probably weren't hardly any Jews in Poland or Germany or Eastern Europe at this time. Very few. Very few. Who were the Jews who were speaking Arabic? Who were the Jews speaking Arabic? So the Jews who were speaking Arabic were my ancestors, right? Jews from Syria, from Iraq, Jews from Yemen, Jews from where Israel, Palestine at the time, all over the Levant and the Fertile Crescent all those Jews spoke Arabic and they had their own dialect of Judeo-Arabic kind of like Yiddish and German but more similar to Arabic and that's the language with that Maimonides wrote in, the language that Sadia Gaon wrote in. So there were a few hundred years where that was a Jewish language. So speaking of Sadia Gaon, didn't he also come up with some essential beliefs for Jews that just didn't get much resonance? Yeah, he did. He wrote, he didn't, well he didn't write a, as far as I know, a concise summary of the short list of fundamental principles that Maimonides did but he wrote a longer book detailing things that he felt were essential to Jewish belief and again, even though they're similar and they're kind of from the same, sorry, go on. I was just going to say it didn't have any resonance. It wasn't influential, wasn't a topic of discussion? No, it was pretty influential in its time. It was a topic of discussion definitely among Jewish, anyone who was involved in like Jewish scholarship but as soon as Maimonides came then his work just overpowered everyone else's and then there were a few hundred years where Maimonides was the only thing everyone spoke about and in a way we're still in that period even though we as a collective, we not me personally, have rejected Maimonidean principles and Maimonidean approach. We're still obsessed with either implementing or rejecting or both, you know, different elements of Maimonidean ideas. So the Jewish nation is still absorbing Maimonides approach in 2021 today. So there's a logical error in debate called argument from authority but I've been reconsidering this. It seems like arguing from authority is pretty much essential to what we do in daily life. I got into a big argument this week with a philosopher and we were arguing about COVID and neither one of us are experts in COVID. So unless you have a fair amount of expertise in a topic, it seems like the only thing that a non-expert can do or one way that they can try to figure things out or discuss things is precisely to argue from authority. So I believe that you see the Rambam, Moses Maimonides as the great one of Jewish philosophers and Jewish intellects. So what do you think about the idea that most people most of the time effectively do need to refer to authority to try to make sense of the world? I disagree with your premise, all right, respectfully. But by the way, are we being joined today by Duvid? I have no idea. So he joining us. I gave him an invite but he did have some other events. So I told him to do the other event and then if he gets time to join us. All right. So basically we're playing Google Meets tag. So you said that essentially everybody argues from authority. You put an example from COVID and with COVID, yes, that's true. If you are not an expert and you're debating an expert, right? If at any point the expert says, look, I'm an expert, you can't, you know, like, I'm not debating you anymore. That's an argument from authority. If you're, even though you may not, if you've studied the subject and you're not an official expert, but you understand virology and you're asking him a reasonable question and he can't answer you. He doesn't give you a logical answer, not because it's dumb. If you're asking a stupid question, I get it. But if you're asking a reasonable question and he's saying authority, then he would not be, that wouldn't be beneficial for the medical field. In fact, you, as we're discussing virology, and in virology's introduction to his medical encyclopedia, people don't know this, but he wrote like an early version of a medical encyclopedia. In his introduction, he says something similar. He says people argue from authority, people accept great medical minds authoritatively, and therefore they don't do research and because they don't do research, the medical field doesn't have solutions to all these problems and people are dying and getting hurt and so on. So this idea that, that I accept my monies on authority, I reject, that's not the case. I accept my monies formulation of fundamental principles, both legally and philosophically, because they, not just that they are eminently reasonable, but they also best express biblical and rabbinic Judaism, as far as I can tell. And if, and if I following those principles come to a conclusion against my monies rulings, I will rule against my monies. And this is something that has happened from time to time, where you use my monodian principles to study the law, how it works, and you come to a conclusion different than he wrote in the Mishneh Torah, or for another example, his philosophical conclusions were sometimes based on premises that today we know are wrong. So if you were, or my monodian is not supposed to stick fanatically to these conclusions that are wrong because he used information he had before him. So we are supposed to use the information we have before us today, and so on and so forth. And therefore I don't accept my monies on authority. I accept his formulation as the best version, best formulated version of the principles of the Torah. Okay. And my question was, don't, isn't the way that most people live their lives, including the way that Orthodox Jews live their lives, is that essentially we do rely on authority? Very few people have the expertise to figure things out on their own. So I agree that Orthodox Judaism today does rely on authority. I am not going to deny that. I am not beholden to any particular denomination. So I may be more similar to the Orthodox in my day-to-day life. Doesn't mean that I accept all of their premises. In fact, I'll say that even today, our day-nage, if you look at rabbinic response, which is when you have a question, you send it to Rabbi who knows the law, and he gives you an answer, it's not a papal bull. He doesn't tell you, you ask him, can I use a sun, like a sun-heating solar water heater to use hot water on Shabbat, let's say. He's not going to tell you forbidden or not forbidden, loud. What he's going to do, he's going to repeat your question, he's going to provide you biblical rabbinic ta'myutic source, and he's going to show you, guide you, how he wished his conclusion, allowing you, the reader, to disagree with him or to say, wait, this doesn't make sense. And that is, I'm not going to say that every single rabbi works like that, but from the time of the Gio'unim and Maimonides and Shulchan Aruch and all of the great Chachamim and Avadiah Yoseph and Moshe Feinstein, even rabbis they disagree with from the Orthodox camp, they all practice this. In other words, they are not authoritative judges, as you indicated Luke. They are lawyers. Only God is the judge. The difference between a judge and a lawyer is the judge rules for you. He tells you what the law is, and he creates the law. You can't prove the judge wrong. Once he issued a ruling, that's the law, that's the judge. The rabbi doesn't do that. The rabbi, he points out an existing law. He points to the rabbinic law, to the ta'mu, right? So he is your lawyer. He may be wrong. He still requires you certain rules to reach conclusions. And that's what the rabbis at their best do, even today. And therefore, no, it's not authority. It is just like you don't hire him necessarily, but it's a lawyer that gives you advice because he's an expert. And the truth is, all of us are low-key required to acquaint ourselves, at least through the principles of the law. So that when we ask a question, we ask intelligently. And at times we can reach the conclusion on our own, even without being an ordained rabbi. And I think things would be a little different for the Hasidim, because you can't really be a hasid and disagree with your rabbi. Yeah, so Hasidim, in my opinion, Hasidism is a perversion of traditional Judaism. There's many good things about them. I don't dislike them on a personal level, but it's not, they don't represent Judaism at its purest, most authentic form. Okay, so I'm looking at this great book by Mark B. Shapiro, The Limits of Orthodox Theology, Maimonides 13 Principles, reappraise. Let me read a little bit from the introduction to this book, Mark Shapiro writes. I'll first begin exploring the subject of this book a number of years ago after reading an article by Rabbi Yehuda Pans in the Torah Umadah journal published by Yeshiva University. Pans argued that as far as Orthodox Judaism is concerned, heresy is defined by the 13 principles of Maimonides. Pans further asserts that one is forbidden to study anything that disagrees with these principles since it is hypsofacto heresy. So anything in dispute with Maimonides principles is heresy, it is forbidden to study heresy, therefore it's forbidden to study anything that does not conform to Maimonides principles. Do you have any thoughts on that? So this is not Mark Shapiro's position, obviously. This is Mark quoting some Rabbi NYU and that is not how I interpret Haram Bam. I don't interpret him as saying that you got to conform to these 13 principles. It's a little more nuance than that. They're 13 foundational principles, right? You're not supposed to, you see, Luke, let's say you have a person who claims that he doesn't believe in God, he doesn't believe in an afterlife, right? He thinks he's an atheist, right? But he acts in a supremely ethical way, okay? And he's a good parent to his children, right? And he invests in the college fund for his grandchildren, right? And he treats fellow humans honorably and ethically, okay? When it's in his interest not to, so he has an opportunity to rip someone off and make a profit, he just doesn't do that, right? That guy can say he's an atheist, but his actions say otherwise, because one who really doesn't believe in anything outside of his own physical self, right? Will not act in such an ethical way. So it's not so much what you state, but it's just like each principle, it's a definition of how you act, like you act as if you believe in God, right? You may have a doubt, but if you still pray, before a sundown, then as far as we're concerned, your atheism is meaningless, right? If you're still an ethical person, then your, your atheism is just words, okay? You see this in many, in many examples, like I live in Israel, right? And I have friends who, who are they, they, I hate Israel, it's corrupt, the government's no good, I can't make a living, prices and departments expensive, and I'm going to America, and I never want to come back here again, and they go to America, right? And there's a war, and their unit gets called up, and they're all Lebanon fighting. He's on the first plane, he doesn't want to miss the war. He gets on a plane, and this happened more, very often, right? People come back, and they want to partake, and all of a sudden, they're the biggest Zionists, and I have friends like that. I would confront them, I said, what happened? A week ago, you were telling me how much you hate this country, and very likely the answer is, now is for real, okay? So sometimes Ashken Nazim, look at these things very autistically, very, maybe autistically is not a great word, but very technically, and what happens is, what ends up happening is that they, they kind of like, if you have a doubt, one day you wake up, your mind isn't all there, and you wonder if it terraces from God, or maybe it was written by humans, and then they get a whole epip, like a whole crisis of faith. That's not how it works. You have, you develop stable habits, you act according to these 13 principles, you verbally, you study them, and you understand the deeper essence of them, and that empowers your life. That's the point of it. It's not this, it's not a Christian dogma, where if you doubt one of them, you're going to hell because you don't have the faith that will get you into heaven. We Jews never had that approach, and Maimonides is not, is not bringing that into Judaism. Unfortunately, a lot of the Orthodox, they have a Christological approach to Jewish faith, and it's very hard for me verbally to unpack properly how wrong these views are, and I hope I was clear enough here. Here's a little bit more from Mark Shapiro. So Maimonides holds that one can commit every possible sin, but as long as the sinner accepts the principles and his sins are not part of a rebellion against God, he will receive a share in the world to come. Such a man is to be regarded as a sinner in Israel, and one must love him and show him compassion. By the same token, Maimonides states not only one who denies, but even one who harbors so much as a doubt about any of the principles is a heretic who has removed himself from the Jewish people, and other Jews are in turn obligated to hate and destroy him, and that this heretic may be a punctilious observer amidst vote is relevant according to Maimonides. So what do you think of that interpretation? That's a very Christological, inaccurate interpretation that's based on an inaccurate translation of the Arabic of Maimonides, and I've read this in the past, and it hurts me to know that such a grave misunderstanding of our great Khacham in Maimonides is so popular, and that this book, it's not a bad book, it's well researched, but it's based on this and several other misconceptions that I obviously vehemently disagree with. So you're saying that he didn't understand what Maimonides was saying, he completely misrepresents what Maimonides is saying in his commentary on the Mishnah. He understood Maimonides the way it's understood in Yeshiva, like if you go to Yeshiva, like a Lithuanian Yeshiva, like in Bnei Brak or something, that's how they would read Maimonides. They have one translation, they don't speak Arabic, right? They don't have that culture, they don't read the whole introduction to the 10th chapter of Sanhedrin, where Maimonides talks about what faith means, where he talks about reward and punishment wins, where he lays the foundations for the nuance of these things, and they just treated it in a Christological way, and academics such as Shapiro have fallen to the trap of rejecting Maimonides, but the Maimonides, they're rejecting as the Maimonides they were taught in Yeshiva, or that they were taught by Yeshiva-trained people, as opposed to a real tradition of Maimonidine learning, of Sephardic Maimonidine learning. So did Maimonides state the things that were just attributed to him or did he not? Again, it's a translation, we can do a line by line translation of that and see the part that's accurate and the part that's not accurate, right? It is a quote from the end of the 10th chapter to Sanhedrin, but it's out of context and poorly translated. For example, I don't have the text in front of me right now, it's a farminel, but I don't know if you hear the animals in the background, but the, for example, Maimonides uses the word re-translated as not someone who rejects verbally the faith, but someone who acts as if he doesn't believe in them, someone who he's ruined one of these principles. So you act together, it's all action. So let's say the principle of like anyone, the fifth principle, which is to worship only God and not worship any intermediaries, right? So it's not a belief. If you in your mind, you think maybe if I prayed to, I don't know, Saint something, you have a thought in your mind, right? That's heretical, nothing happens, because you pray to God, right? But the moment you go to his grave, right? And you pray to Rabbi Schneers and you ask him to redeem you, you send him letters, right? You converse with him, right? You start, you're worshiping him as a divine being. Now, you've violated the most very important principle. It's an action. It's not a belief, right? And even like the belief in the Messiah, it's an action. It's not just, oh, I believe the Messiah is going to come. It also means that you have to believe that the land is yours. You have to believe that Messiah should come. You have to have, you have to leak claim to the land. You have to be some version of a Zionist. If you say, I don't want the land, I'm a Palestinian activist, the land should go to the people who are there now and not back to us. So you violated the Masonic principle, right? Each principle is that it's a set of actions that if you violate them, it basically, think of it, Luke, as a framework of being, of Judaism at its most noble expression. And it, and Hachamim, and my mother as well, were very wise people. They knew that a person's mind isn't the most reliable thing. We have mental illness sometimes, you know, some of us, some of us wake up in the morning with doubts about everything and then we doubt ourselves and the next day we're full of confidence, but you develop habits of behavior that are productive and that are positive. And therefore you act in a way as a member of the faithful. You study the principles and you absorb them and you're fine. Your doubts is not what's going to take you to hell. Your actions will. And even the Mishnah itself, notice the Mishnah that, I don't know if we're getting, if I'm getting too technical about this. No, don't worry about it. It's all based on the Mishnah. It's all based on a Mishnah in Sanhedrin. And the Mishnah says, as mentioned, it says, it's a beautiful Mishnah. I'm going to just quote it by heart. But the Mishnah says, it starts off by saying all of Israel have a portion of the world to come. There's a world to come and all of Israel has a portion to do. Then the Mishnah starts telling you, here's a list of people who are exempt who don't have the world to come. So a person who rejects the divine authorship of the Torah. A person who rejects the resurrection of the dead. And then the list goes on and on. It includes people who insult their friend in public. You've never roasted your friend. Once you finish reading all of the exemptions, sorry, all of the exceptions, you find that nobody has a Lamhabah. It's a very Mishnahic way. But I digress. The language of the Mishnah doesn't say someone who denies it. It says, Ha-Omer entchiatam eti. Ha-Omer enthram in Hashemayim. Not Mishalomah min. Someone who publicly says the Torah is just words of just some random person. You don't have that foundational mythic connection to the Torah. You tear yourself away from the thousands of years of tradition of how we have treated the Torah as holy. When you do that, you lose your Lamhabah. When you say you publicly say, but not just verbally, you act, it's a lifestyle. That would be my answer to you. That's the thing that many of my Ashkenaz brothers miss when they study the principles. They see it as this kind of like the Catholics. It's a very European thing. It makes sense that some Ashkenazim would make this mistake. It's the way the Catholics have, I think they call it a catch-atism or something where they have like a thing that they must believe in. Catechism, yeah? And like, if they don't believe these dogmas, you don't believe in it, you go to hell or Muslims. Even Muslims have a similar thing where if you don't believe in the prophet, then you're just not good enough. And it's like something you have to just believe. You have to just somehow be convinced of a set of axioms that they give you. But us, it's a lifestyle. It's 13 principles that are basically that underlie a set of actions that we take. Okay. Okay. So let me share a little bit more here from this Max Shapiro book. So he notes that Maimonides 13 principles appeared in his first major work, his commentary on the Meshna, which was designed to be a popular work, was written in Arabic. It's significant that Maimonides, in his later years, he did not feel bound to them in the way that later became the norm in Jewish history. So one would have expected Maimonides to put great emphasis on these beliefs, quoting them in his later works and letters. That is hardly the case. So anything that I believe in strongly, I keep repeating it over different streams and elaborating on it. And Maimonides did indeed revise the texts of the principles later in life. He indeed revised his entire commentary on the Meshna, but he refers only once to the principles as fundamentals of the Jewish faith. And even here, the 13 principles not set apart as being fundamentally more significant than the rest of his commentary on the Meshna or on his Meshna Torah. So he occasionally references individual principles, but he almost never references all 13 principles as a unit. And so you would think in his great code of Jewish law, the Meshna Torah, which also defines heresy and what Jews are obligated to believe, Maimonides does not list the 13 principles as a unit. Now some of the principles, all of the principles that have been found individually scattered in different parts of the Meshna Torah. But if Maimonides regarded the 13 principles as his final statement on the fundamentals of Jewish faith, one would have expected them to be listed at the very beginning of his code. And not all the details of his 13 principles are repeated in the Meshna Torah. Also, when he talks about what is necessary for someone to convert to Judaism, he simply, he doesn't really talk about principles of faith. He just talks about teaching people the commandments. So you would think you would have would have placed the 13 principles there as something essential in the in the process of conversion. So if if Maimonides regarded the 13 principles the same way that Orthodox Jews have over the past 700 years, you'd think he refer back to them more often. Any thoughts? Do you hear me? Yes. So, yeah, so I disagree with I should really read a book refuting many of these arguments, because Maimonides does refer to this. Okay, I can't hear you. I'm sorry. It's so bad. The quality is so bad. Maybe reboot your computer or something. I'll why don't you come back in in a couple of minutes? Yep. Okay. Yeah. So restart your computer. We'll come back to Judas in a few minutes. So here let me just read a little bit more from Mark Shapiro, the limits of Orthodox theology. So Shapiro noted that this argument that one's not allowed to read anything that contradicts any of the Rambam 13 principles is without historical precedent in the Jewish tradition, because it would mean that much of the Jewish tradition of the most basic variety, including portions of the Talmud, the Zohar, the Rishonim, who operated in the 9th, 10th, 11th century, the Archeronum, 13th, 14th, 15th century, that many of the great rabbis of Jewish tradition were forbidden reading since every single one of Maimonides' basic principles, you find Gdolan, the great rabbis disagreeing with them. So Shapiro then notes that Maimonides came up with the 13 principles when he was young, but then he basically never referred to them again as a unit. And he also did not include them as what's necessary when converting someone to Judaism. So what's common today for prospective Orthodox converts is to be instructed in the 13 principles, but this is what Maimonides wrote about a potential convert. He should then be made acquainted with the principles of the faith, which are the oneness of God and the prohibition of idolatry. So those are the only two principles of belief that Maimonides emphasizes should be taught to a prospective convert. So there's very limited theological instruction here. Now the Talmud says nothing about what a prospective convert should be taught to believe. Okay, Judas, let's try you again. So go ahead. Much better. Is it better? Yes. I have to just say that I live in an isolated farm in the West Bank in Judea. And my internet is sometimes it's very good and sometimes it's bad. So I don't know why it would be better than some days and worse than others. What I was saying was that I disagree with Shapiro's attempt to minimize the importance of the principles. And before I start refuting some of those things, the best of my ability, I'll say that the reason he's on this path to kind of minimize the importance of the principles is because he has absorbed, as I said earlier, a Christological approach to them. And therefore it bothers him. He would rather there be no principles and he would rather we just not have these fundamental principles because they come off as dramatic and rigid and very heredity. And the reason is because he's born into the heredity interpretation of the principles. So as I said earlier, I have a very Sephardic approach to this. And we don't see them as these, we don't see them as these rigid faith articles that you need to constantly commit yourself to verbally. We think that it's a way of life. It represents a certain fundamental way of being, well-tanchung, if you want. And the fact is that Maimonides refers to these principles both in the beginning of the Mishneh Torah. He refers to it repeatedly, I think all of them, in the laws of repentance. And he also, when he talks about converts, he says, what do we teach converts? We teach them the concept of law, and we teach them about monotheism. And he says, And we expound on monotheism. And how do you expound on monotheism? Because the first four principles are the monotheistic principles. And what else? What's the next four principles, the next five ones? After the monotheism one, it's the one about prophecy, the one about revelation, the ones about Torah and Hashem, right? And what does he say we teach the convert? He says we teach the monotheism, and we teach them the reward and punishment, and we teach them that there's a revelation, we teach them the law, the Torah itself. He's not saying the actual 13 principles in a dramatic way, but he's saying the 13 principles in what he does say you teach the convert, which is monotheism, law, reward and punishment. And all the 13 principles all fall into one of these three categories. And therefore, even if you didn't, even if you missed one of the exact principles in that Maimonides wrote, the convert would still be converted because no one is saying that the 13, the number 13 is a holy number. It's just the 13 principles of how Maimonides chose to express the deepest aspirations of traditional Judaism. Okay, so let me read a little bit from an English translation. Wait, wait, wait, look, look, is my response is making sense to you? Or does it sound like I'm just doing like apologetics? What do you think? The problem is, we've just got assertions going back and forth, and I'm trying to think of a way to sharpen things. So you're saying, like I began by quoting some things that Mark Shapiro summarized from Maimonides and the 13 principles, and you said, you know, Maimonides, that Shapiro doesn't understand what Maimonides was saying. So either Shapiro gets it wrong or you got it wrong. Somebody's wrong here. And so, and again, Shapiro is saying that Maimonides rarely refers to the 13 principles as a unit, again. And you're saying that the 13 principles are throughout the Rambam's commentaries and work. So somebody's wrong and somebody's right. They show up all over. Yeah, I can probably look within a few minutes that they can bring up the quotes. Right. And the way to reconcile it is Shapiro makes the point that the 13 principles do not reappear as a unit. Oh, they don't reappear. They don't, they do not. I'm going to accept they don't reappear as a unit, right? Nor should they. There is no reason for them to reappear as a unit. Why? Well, if the 13 principles are as important, were as important to Maimonides as they became to Orthodox Jews over the past 600 years, you would expect them to reappear and reappear in Maimonides' work. So they do, but just not as a unit. The each principle appears in Maimonides' work several times, from the monotheistic principles to the idea of the resurrection, to the coming of the Messiah, every single one appears significantly and clearly in Maimonides' works several times over and over again. So the fact that it doesn't appear as one unit is meaningless and I'll tell you why, because I agree that it doesn't appear as one unit, because again, what are the 13 principles? They are, Maimonides is doing a commentary on the Mishnah in Arabic, okay? He wants everybody to be able to read the Mishnah. I earlier quoted the Mishnah that we came across, which is about the world, which is not typical Mishnah. Mishnah tells you if you can build a Miqvah in your house, doesn't teach you about world to come. So this is an aberration. The Mishnah is doing something apocalyptic, something philosophical, mystical, if you will, not regular Mishnahic material. So Maimonides takes a break from his commentary and he says, I'm going to teach you a list of principles, not just principles. He also talks about psychology of religion. He talks about altruism. It's a serious work, the introduction to the 10th chapter, because before we start talking about the world to come and resurrection, I need you to understand some important things. And within that introduction, there are 13 principles of the Jewish faith and those 13 principles, he made up the number. He didn't find the number 13 in the Talmud. He just chose the various things in rabbinic Judaism that were deemed vital and he packaged them for us in these 13 principles. And you could package it in a different way and come up with nine principles or with six principles. And you could probably combine the first four principles into two, but he chose to do it a certain way for whatever reason. He's not required to now repeat the number 13. The fact that each principle appears and reappears all the time throughout my monodian writings in his Mishneh Torah, in the guide to the Proplex, and in his letters, proves that his commitment and the fact that he, in his later in his life, amended the language of the 13 principles as he's amended all the other writings he made, means that he never backed off from them. And that he never gave up on them and he could have. He is part of the Mishneh Torah that he deleted. He wasn't one of these people that remained committed to everything he wrote forever. And my point to you and to Mark Shapiro followers is that you have two options. You can say my monodies believed in them and we don't accept that, or you can consider what I'm telling you. That maybe, just maybe, you misunderstood my monodies. And in my course, my book that I'm writing, I do my best to unpack my monodies translated directly and I try to unpack the meaning of the principles in it as loyal as I can be to the original text in the culture that it was made from. Luke, hello. Great. I'm coming through. So if you can't hear me, that's on your end. You can't hear me? I hear you. I hear you now. Okay. Let me repeat. So Shapiro says that my monodies did not appear in his later years to feel bound to the principles in the way that became the norm in Jewish history. You're saying that's an incorrect interpretation? Absolutely incorrect. No, oh, wait, wait, I'm sorry. Wait, I have to qualify that. Yes, he didn't, he wasn't, he wasn't bound by the principles. The way Hirosh Hashiva, if Mir Yashiva would be bound by them or why you. True. Because I maintain that they fundamentally misunderstood my monodies. So his commitment to the principles was much deeper, much more nuanced and much more spiritual than just statements of declared faith. Okay, because everything happens in a context. My monodies were Sephardic, the Sephardim that tend to be a schismatic as the Ashkenazim. So yeah, I think that's part of the context that you're talking about here. Yeah. It's actions for us. That's what you do. It's not just ideas and also we don't get neurotic over a bad hair day. We wake up in the morning and one day and you have doubts if your children love you. Are you going to disown them, take them out of your will and the next week put them back in and call them up and have an argument? No, you develop certain patterns of behavior and that's how you go by. And then over time you learn what's true and what's not true. So we're not schismatic and we don't get crazy over a mental doubt. That's not what it's about. Again, each principle, it represents a almost like a whole list of actions that we do and how we live. That's what it really is. If you do those actions, you believe in the principles. And you're saying that that is not just Rabbi Judas' opinion, you're saying that is my monotheism. That's pure my monotheism, correct. Okay, so let's have a look at the Rambam's commentary here on the Mishnah on Sanhedrin, chapter 10. So he starts with the saying, in the Mishnah, all Jews have a share in the world to come. So to the best of your knowledge, what did the authors of the Mishnah mean by this statement that all Jews have a share in the world to come and what did my monotheism mean by this statement? So the rabbis of the Mishnah were extremely sophisticated, had a great sense of humor, irony, and were brilliant at writing, packaging writings in a certain way. All of, obviously, nobody knows about the world to come. None of us have went to the world to come and come back. Chahamim were well aware and in many places they admitted that everything we say about the world to come, like details, is conjecture, it's guessing, we don't know, all right. When we say all Israel has a place in the world to come, what we really want to say are who doesn't have a place in the world to come? Who's excluded? And then the list of the exclusions begins. It's a hug, it's a big bear hug, like, oh, we all have a portion of the world to come, how beautiful. Okay, now that you feel warm and you feel cared for, okay, here's who gets excluded. And that's the way the Chahamim teach you ethics, morals, and a healthy mindset. All right, so the same Mishnah will tell you, if you publicly embarrass someone, it's like killing him, he's spilling his blood, and you lose your portion in the world to come. So now that warm feeling of like being, you feel a Jewish tradition is embracing you and telling you, you have just your existence is great. And that's enough to give you the world to come. That gets taken away, why? Because it's something that we very commonly do and sensitive to our fellow man, that would take it away. And it's a way to manipulate people into being better people. That's rabbinism. That's what the Mishnah meant. And that's what how Rambam is trying to explain in the principles. Okay, great. So here's a little bit more from the Rambam's commentary on Mishnah Sanhedrin. So the Rambam says, what the entire people, the masses and the intelligentsia ask about is how the dead will arise. Will they arise naked or dressed? Will they arise with the same shrouds with which they were buried? Or with the embroidery and designs of beautiful stichery or with a cloak that only covers their bodies? And they ask when the Messiah comes, whether there will be rich and poor, and if there will be the strong and the weak, and many questions like these, and you who looks into this book understand this parable that I'm drawing for you, and then prepare your heart and listen to my words about all of this. So my monotheist seems to understand he's speaking to many different audiences. He's speaking to an intellectual elite. And he's also speaking to the masses. Any thoughts, Judas? So this is a great excerpt you read. Because what is he saying? He's saying most people, it's literally, this is making my case for me. When you talk about the resurrection of the dead, which is one of the principles, right? And let's talk about that for a minute, because that's the one you mentioned. Most people, what do they think about? Okay, how will the dead arise? Will we be clothed? Will we be naked? Are we all being resurrected? But what they're not asking is, what they're not thinking of is why the principle is important? Like, what does it mean to believe in the resurrection of the dead? What if I don't, like, what is this? Right? And this is actually a very strong question. People ask, like, why, what's the point of this article of faith? Why, if I don't believe in it, I don't accept it, when, like, how do we, like I was saying earlier, each principle is a, it's a lifestyle, right? So if it's a lifestyle, what kind of lifestyle is it to believe in the resurrection, right? Luke? And the answer to the question is that the, what is the idea of the resurrection? It's a way to, and I hope I'm not going too deep for this podcast. Don't worry about it. Just do whatever you want to do. And if I don't like it, I'll tell you. Okay, so think of it this way. Every religion is helping us humans deal with randomness, cruelty of this world. It helps us deal with questions that don't have answers. And it tells us that in old religions, including Judaism, give you some variation of the following argument. They'll say, look, the, the, the Torah has, hold on, my dog's a barking. I have to check if there's anyone coming to my farm. Okay, that's fine. No problem whatsoever. So let's just take a break here. These are not generally newsworthy. Everything okay guys? The 1931 Karl Becker speech to the American Historical Association made it into the New York Times. It may not have heard that Becker's speech was interpreted as a slap in the face of the professional historians, and it was called every man his own historian. Now, Becker opened with a disarming. I am back. Set the morning, Mr. Everyman wakes. Okay. So basically, I was saying that all religions, they tell you about a spiritual world. They tell you about a world to come, including Judaism, right? And they'll tell you, give Caesar what's Caesar's and give God what's God's, right? They'll, if they're Christians and Muslims will tell you this, Jannah, and like if you do the right thing in this world and the future world, you won't have to deal with all the filth and corruption and pain and suffering that we have over here, right? It gives the individual a way psychologically to deal with the world that we live in, right? And the problem with that is, is that it's an escape. Religious people, so including Jews, sometimes use that as an escape, escaping into spirituality as a way to not deal with challenges this world. So the Torah has this concept of the resurrection, the resurrection is telling you, is that even though you were at Sadiq in this world, and you're in the world to come with God and the angels and the reward, you're there, right? You want to come back. Why do you want to come back? You want to come back because this world is really what's important. You want to see the world in its most advanced, most progressive form. And so it's also an action, it's not just a beautiful idea. If your Torah is a Torah that just puts you in a corner where you sit and study and you use the Torah as a way to escape engaging with reality, then you have allowed religion to just to neuter you, you know? So therefore, what Maimonides is telling you is people are thinking about the actual resurrection, but it's not the point. The point is not how we get up. The point is, look how important this world is, and even when you go up to Shemayim and you with God and you're getting the greatest reward you can get, you still need to come back to this world and it's important to you. That's what he's saying. Okay, great. Let me read a little bit more here from the Rambam's commentary on mission Sanhedrin. Place it in your mind that when they bring a young boy to a teacher to teach him Torah due to the boy's youth and the weakness of his intellect, he does not understand the level of the goodness of learning Torah. Therefore, it's necessary for the teacher who is more mature than he is to encourage the study of Torah with things that will speak to the boy. And so he says, read and I will give you nuts or figs and I will give you a little honey. And through the rewards of the nuts and the figs and the honey, the boy will read and exert for himself. He does not do this for the actual reading of the Torah. He doesn't know its value, but rather so that they will give him that food. And the eating of these delights is more precious in the boy's eyes than the reading and the greater good of Torah. Do you have any thoughts on that parable, Judah? Yeah, first of all, it's beautiful, right? It's telling you that you need to motivate people with what they can understand. Right? It's just like you tell your you may read for a kid the little red writing hood. And what you're really trying to do, you're trying to teach them to be wary of strangers, right? So the same thing with the Torah. The Torah will sometimes offer rewards. Chamiah will sometimes talk about rewards in a way to motivate you to be the best version of yourself you can be. Yep, let me read a little bit more. And so when the boy grows and his intellect becomes stronger, and he goes on to loving something else, they will encourage him with these new things. And his teacher will say, read and I will buy you fine shoes and lovely clothes. And so through the prospect of a reward of fine shoes and lovely clothes, the lad makes more efforts to read not for the actual Torah study, Lashem Shamiah, for its own sake, but rather for the garment and for the beautiful shoes. And that for him becomes the objective of his study. And I just wish that my parents had done this. Like I wish that I'd received rewards to study hard and score. I think this is awesome. No. You didn't get it? No, nothing. I got some rewards, but I also got punished if I didn't. It was went both ways. My parents were my dad was strict. And then as the the lad gets even older, his teacher will tell him, learn this section and I will give you money. And so he reads and exerts himself to get the money. And when his intellect becomes greater than his master will say study so that you can become a leader. And so he will read and exert himself so that people will honor him and praise him. And all of this is despicable says my monadies. Nonetheless, it is necessary because of the smallness of the human intellect. He makes the objective of wisdom something else besides wisdom and say for that one thing he is learning that honor will come to him. And this is making a laughing stock of the truth. That's fascinating. So he says all these rewards are despicable and they're making a laughing stock of the truth, but they're necessary in the course of human development. Any thoughts, Judah? I think it speaks for itself. I have nothing to add. Great. And I appreciate you saying that. And because so many people say things when they have nothing to add. And about such study, the sages say it's not for its own sake, like he's not studying Torah for its own sake, but he's doing it for the for money or for food or for reward. And so the sages warn us in Pakeh, vote for five, do not make the Torah into a crown with which to aggrandize yourself and not into a speed with which to dig into them. So here's a very important, very important rule. Yeah. Yeah, go ahead. Why don't you, why don't you dilate on that? This is something that this is something that very few of us Marabbas and Hamim follow. You just two things you're not allowed to do with the Torah. You're not allowed to use it as a crown on your head to aggrandize yourself. So to get honor from people. So you can't use it as a as you can pull rank. I in any argument, I can tell you Luke, I'm a rabbi, you're not just pull rank on you. That's not allowed. Okay, because the Torah is open for everyone. If you're making an argument from I can argue with you based on my knowledge, but I can't argue from a place of authority, because only God is authority. And the other thing is we're not allowed to make money from the Torah. We're not allowed to make the Torah into our living. So I'm not allowed to get, you're not allowed to, according to my monotheism, you can't be a rabbi. Being a rabbi is against the rabbinic law. You can't receive money for rabbinic services. That's the point. You could be a rabbi, but a rabbi means you do it altruistically and you have a day job. Okay, great. And here's more from the Ramams commentary on Mishnah Sanhedrin. So it's forbidden for a person to say for a whole person, meaning a mature person say when I do these commandments, which lead and develop good character traits, and I distance myself from sins, which are bad character traits, then God, God will reward me for this. This is like a child will say, saying, when I read this, what will they give to me? And they will say such and such a thing. So when we see the smallness of his intellect that he doesn't understand what he's involved in, and we see that he asked for another objective, we answer him according to his foolishness, as it is stated in Proverbs, answer a fool according to his foolishness. I think this is profound. You have to speak to people on whatever level they are, which means particularly for a religion, but even for a social, political, or cultural cause, you need to have different messages or speak to different people. And you see this particularly in TV, like there are shows like the Sopranos and the Shield, and that show Breaking Bad, where these shows can be appreciated by people with a 100 IQ, but they can also be appreciated by people with a 120, 140, and 160 IQ. So also with many cartoons, you can appreciate them on a 90 IQ level, but also people with 130 IQ level can appreciate them. Any thoughts? That's a very good analogy. That's a very good analogy. Yeah, to come up with one message that will work for everyone. That's very good. And the same thing here when you talk about reward, this is all, by the way, what you just read is the lead up to the 13 principles. It's setting the stage for the 13 principles. It's much more nuanced, complex, and deep than people give it credit for being. Yeah. It's pages and pages of this before he says the 13 principles themselves. Yeah. So Maimonides' commentary continues. This matter now has been clarified for you. It has become clear that it is the intention of the Torah and the foundation of the intention of the great sages. And only a crazed fool will ignore this because silly thoughts and bad ideas have corrupted him and mixed him up. So we're now at the level of Avraham, our father. He served from love and towards this path. It is fitting that there be arousal. So when Maimonides says that Avraham served from love, I think he's saying that Avraham served from love of Hashem. And so I think there's often a split. Most people, I don't think they can fully get into loving God. They love people. And then there are some people who are so in love with God that they're fairly indifferent to people. So I often see a split. There are those who love people and not so intensely involved with God. Then there are other people who are intensely involved with God and they're somewhat indifferent to people. It's kind of hard to both love God and love people. Any thoughts? I think I would disagree with that. I think that someone who has a Havat Hashem, who has love of God, fear of God, will also have love of all humanity, all of creation. If you see a person who appears to love God but doesn't love people, then it's not love of God what you see. It's someone using religion as a someone who to them, religion solves the psychological need that they have, which is fine. But that's a fine difference between being in the service of something and having something serve you. If you're an OCD person and you're religious in Judaism, Judaism is great for you. You get all these laws and you could be technical and you can be as OCD as you want and it's all from God. But are you doing it for God or are you just OCD? People who, for them, religion is a way to distance themselves from others, they don't love God. They love themselves. It's ego. Do you know what I mean? That's what you just read. The way my monotheism is formulating it, religion is about altruism. If someone who is all religious but he's not altruistic, then he is not religious. He is using religion as a way to achieve some mental psychological goal that he has for himself, which is whatever it happens to be, to feel superior, to be neurotic, as many of us are, like many Jews are neurotic. That's what it is. It's not really the love of God. When you study Torah, do you study Torah primarily for your sake, for the Torah's sake, for God's sake? I have to think about that question. It seems like a simple question, but it's not. Why do I study Torah? I study the Torah out of love. I love the Torah. That's why I study Torah. That would be my answer. Who am I doing it for? God doesn't need me to study Torah. He doesn't need me to be religious. I'm the one that needs to study Torah and needs to follow the law. Ultimately, I'm doing it out of love and commitment. It doesn't mean that I always enjoy it. Maybe studying the Torah I enjoy, but I'm not going to tell you I always enjoy praying mincha at the right time and I'll be at the right time. I don't always enjoy waiting six hours after meat to have a coffee with milk. But you do those things out of commitment, do those things out of devotion, out of love. All together, the system that you're committed to, it does reward you in various ways, but you're not doing it for that reward. What do you like to read aside from Torah? Give me some examples of things you enjoy reading outside of Torah. I like biographies and autobiographies of famous and infamous people. Churchill, Hitler, Genghis Khan, Alexander the Great, Salah Adin, Richard the Lionheart. I read about these people. I enjoy reading that. I also enjoy reading forbidden literature. I enjoy reading other religious works. I enjoy reading Christian theology and Islamic theology I'm fascinated with. I like the series you mentioned. I love Sopranos. I like Breaking Bad. All that stuff I enjoy a lot. I can get a bit addicted to these shows. I don't know if that answers your question. Yeah, it does because it does answer it because I think it's obvious for almost any one of us outside of like a religious obligation. The reason that if I love reading the United States Constitution, it's not for the sake of the Constitution or for the sake of the United States or for the sake of what was happening in 1780, I read it because I love it because it meets my needs. It stimulates me. It helps me. So almost anything that I choose to read, I'm reading it for my sake. Yeah, that's true. That's true for the Torah as well. But put it this way. When you go to Shul on Shabbat, are you always switched on and hypnotized by the reading of the Parashat that week? Are you always loving it? Or sometimes you're sitting there in the service. You just need to hear the Torah being read. No, but when I do love it, it's because it's speaking to me. It helps me understand the world. So when I fall in love with Torah, I gotta be honest. It's for my sake. I am intoxicated. That's fine. That's good. That's good. That's not bad. I'm not saying you shouldn't enjoy it. What I'm saying is the only thing that I'm not me, what I'm already saying is love of Torah means part of the internal rules of Torah is you're not allowed to take money for Torah. Torah has to be a free exchange of Torah for Torah. You can't make it into a living. That's what he said in the passage you read. And you're also not allowed to use Torah as a way to gain power, as a way to gain influence. All right? In the gym of Talmud Torah, we're all equal. And the rabbi gets respected by the students, but yes, because it's formal decorum of respect. But what he's not allowed to do is to pull rank. And therefore you'll see that rabbis, when they deal with, even rabbis disagree with me, right? This idea has survived, has not been destroyed. Like the idea of not taking money for Torah has been absolutely destroyed by the Orthodox and I don't accept that. But what they have preserved is to a large degree, not completely, not by Hasidim, but the rest of the Jewish world. And even Hasidim, to an extent, also kept this, is the culture of response so that in the gym of the Torah, everybody's equal. And the greatest rabbi and the biggest layman, the rabbi can pull rank. He has to answer his question intelligently. He has to demonstrate his sources. He can't just say, I was ordained. So what I tell you to do is what you do. That doesn't work that way in Judaism. So, for example, there are approaches to Torah that I do not enjoy. I do not enjoy Gamatria. I tend to tune out on Gamatria. And I prefer, say, the rush bomb to Rashi, because the rush bomb in his commentary on the Torah, he's primarily interested in the plain meaning of the text, while many other commentators are much more figurative in their understanding. So to me, the rush bomb embodies exegesis, meaning understanding what the text says, while many other rabbinic commentators seem to embody isegesis, where they read their desired beliefs into the text. So there are parts of the Masora, the Jewish tradition, and Jewish commentary that I love much more than other parts. How about you? So, first of all, I'm going to make a defense of Gamatria just from, like, just to give it a different perspective, okay? Gamatria is the Gamorasa. Gamatria is a papero, like an appetizer. It's an appetizer for wisdom. What does that mean? In the past, we didn't have, like, math class. We didn't have, hey, David, how are you? So in the past, we didn't have, like, math sessions. So Gamatria was how Khamim would have us practice math. They would give you a Pasuk or a word and say, what's the numerical value of that word? And that connects to something else. They didn't necessarily take these connections as having inherent meaning. Often, it was just a way for them to teach arithmetic and other mathematical things. So that's what it was used for. And then later in the Middle Ages, people started looking at Gamatria as having inherent meaning, as being representative of, like, an actual thing. So that's what I would say. And yeah, are there parts of the Torah that I'm better at than others? Yes, I'm better at Talmud than I am at, let's say, mysticism, right? I'm better at, like, biblical, like, understanding Tanakh than at reading the Torah and Shul, like with Ta'ameen. I have skills that I'm better at. And you usually prefer the things you're better at than the things you're not better at. And I share the distaste you alluded to for non-exegetical works. But anyway, I think we should let David jump in here because I've been talking for an hour. Okay. What did you think? Yeah, yeah, let's, yeah, let's get Duvid onto the show. So Duvid, all three of us are interested in comparative religion. We're interested in seeing how other people see the world. I'm just curious, you've studied and participated or experienced other religions, Duvid. What is your, what attracts you to comparative religion and say checking out, you know, aspects of Hinduism, Duvid? I'm a believer, you know, saying like, I tend to, you know, originally, you know, I had been very serious about Judaism, I still am. And then I thought that, you know, my role in Judaism might be a little bit different based on my lineage. And, but, you know, I think, you know, that's the essential function of a Jew, like I've said many times, you know, priest to nation, that that's basically the essential function that we, that we fulfill as, you know, kind of intermediary between nations, if you want to say it like that. And in that, even God, I mean, I don't know what terminology you want to put it into, but, you know, God, there is a God, there is karma, there is action, reaction. And in that is universal, you know, among all religions, all people. And, you know, so that's what that's what interests me. Oh, what have you gained, say in particular, from your study and, and what you've seen in Hinduism? Because I mean, Hinduism brought the world yoga. Hinduism has has attracted the interest of a lot of Westerners. But what attracted your interest into Hinduism? I think it was just circumstance, like I was in university. And I saw that, you know, I would say Hindus are pretty conservative, like, like, like they had a system enable like, you know, like you mentioned that, you know, Orthodox Jews live in urban areas in the middle of, you know, the, the, you know, so to say, the worst of sin, and still somehow managed to stay relatively pure. And I saw that, that in reality, that Hindus are better at that, that, you know, the numbers in terms of, I don't really put it like, you know, like, you know, purity, family values, that Hindus actually even outscore Orthodox Jews, and, and are pretty successful materially, and, and do it in urban areas. And, you know, so, so that made me want to look more into their practice, and also university, that, you know, Jews are, they're not really doing that well in engineering, and in university. And I saw that in University of Michigan, almost all of the Orthodox Jews, they can't do it. There's almost no Orthodox Jews at most, you know, like very modern Orthodox Jews in, you know, say, you know, the university system, and even most of the modern Orthodox Jews that are in university, you know, generally don't wear a yarmulke height that their Jewish prefer to, you know, give, you know, prefer that people don't even know they're Jewish if that was possible, as opposed to Hindus that had some method of being in the midst of the university system, studying engineering and business, and, and being active in their teaching. And that's, so it was kind of circumstance being in University of Michigan, I needed like a group of people that were serious about engineering. And I was actually a member of the like Jenga, they call the Jewish engineering society. And none of them people like me that like, you know, God forbid, there are, you know, there are a few modern Orthodox Jews, but you know, one guy who wore yarmulke, but you know, they looked at me like I was crazy. I was this, you know, trying to be chesitic. And the fellow Jews looked at me like I was crazy, you know, believing in our own traditions, like I was trying to believe in Judaism. And my fellow Jews looked at me like I was crazy, as opposed to, you know, since the Hindus had a better amalgamation of like studying engineering in science, and, and being in the university system. So that's what started to make me take it seriously. And then I looked into the teachings. And, you know, the spiritual aspect of you're kind of like the Kabbalah, you know, like, you know, Mordechai mentioned, if he's anti-Kabbalah, but a lot of the Kabbalah is what gives a comparison between science and spirituality. And, you know, so it was the Hindu system of science and spirituality, explanation of consciousness, inner workings of the spiritual and material realm. And honestly, that's what interests me about Judaism. Like I'm not going to disagree with Mordechai, but I was always more into Kabbalah and the mystical aspect of Judaism. That's why I lean towards Kislytkishivas and in those teachings. And I actually kind of agree with Mordechai. I think it probably does come from Hinduism, or possibly pagan Greek stuff that, that my research showed me that probably Kabbalah may not actually be Jewish in origin. And so that maybe turned me into a heretic when I realized that it came to the conclusion that Kabbalah probably doesn't actually come from Judaism. And Judas, is there anything there that you wanted to comment on? Well, I mean, the only thing I would say, we're a bit of cross purposes, that I would say is that I am a almost Salafi style monotheist. I think monotheism seriously. And to me, I see any sort of violation of monotheistic principles as a diversion from Judaism. It doesn't make a difference to me how outwardly Jewish the violator of monotheism is. Once you violate monotheism, as far as I'm concerned, I don't hate you personally, right? It's not personal. I actually have Hindu family members, blood relatives, who are Hindus, because my mom is from Calcutta, and some of her siblings married Hindus. I'm well aware of that world. It's not personal. But from a Jewish perspective, once you violate the monotheistic principle, as far as I'm concerned, you've left the fold, all right? It doesn't mean you're a bad person. I don't think that we need to keep everyone. We're allowed to lose people. And it's just like we're allowed to gain people. And yeah, I agree with- Talmud does say that you're better off dealing with the idol worshiper than an atheist. And also in university, I saw the utility and the truth of that, like Hindus, if you want to say they're idol worshippers, but your average person is an atheist. And I think you're better off dealing with idol worshippers than atheists. So I'm sorry, David. You may need to help me. Do you, by any chance, know we're in the Talmud? He says that idol worshippers better than an atheist. I have to look it up. And if you want, I'll do it in that search. So you could send it to me later. It's not an emergency for now, but I was under the- not from Talmudic source, but from just my own mind. I actually would- They don't use the term atheist, but someone who rejects the creator, that you're better off as someone who worships a false deity than a rejecter of the creator. So send me that. I'd like to just review that. When you- no, Rasha, I'm not putting you on the spot, not showing you up and saying I'd like to see that in the context. But I would say that I respect all people in all religions as individuals. So whatever I say about other religions, it's not that I think that a Hindu guy is bad or Christian is better vice versa. That being said, I am a committed monotheist and a committed monotheist means something. That means that if you're not a monotheist, you're not part of the community of the faithful of the monotheists. And I don't think that it's possible to blend Hinduism, most strains of Kabbalah, even of Hasidism with traditional Judaism. I see Hasidism as the most Hasidim that I've met, and Hasidic works that I've read from the Tanya to Sfath-e-Met, or that I see them all as various levels of diversion off of our monotheistic roots. And Duvin mentioned that these guys are possibly- they come from Hindu roots. Maybe. I don't know where it comes from. But it's not monotheism. It's not Moses, and it's not Khakamim, and it's not Harampah. That's what I think. And Duvin, what about prayer? I know quite a few people who feel like God speaks Sanskrit better than he speaks any other language. So I know a lot of people who experience much more powerful things with praying in Sanskrit and using that method to get towards God than other methods. Do you have any thoughts on that, Duvin? Yeah, since Mordecai is here, when I was in Jerusalem at Mir Yashiva, I ate almost every Sabbath by Reptineel Frisch, a blessed memory who probably is the most respected commentator on the Zohar anti-Zionist, told us Aran Khasid, and he told me not to learn to speak Hebrew, don't speak Hebrew, and he would say, you know, he'd only take me as a student if I learned Yiddish, and he used to say this expression over and over again, Mashiach Rednish kind of English, you know, saying, Masai is not going to speak English. And I knew a lot of- He was going to speak Yiddish. I don't know if he was saying he was going to speak Yiddish, but he was saying that English isn't a holy language. And I knew Khasidim in Borough Park, like on Sabbath, they would refuse to speak English, or even a lot of Rebbe's or Rebeim that I drove around, they understood English, they didn't like speaking English, they preferred me to, you know, do their mundane English stuff. And, you know, I mean, like singing Carlebach stuff, like Lord, get me higher, doesn't do anything for me. Chanting in English, praying in English, just really doesn't do anything for me. And it could be that English is used as a mundane language and then when you have a language set aside, only for holy things. And this was one of the critiques of early Zionism, even religious, even holologically, whether it's permissible to use Hebrew for mundane things. But yeah, Sanskrit is like that. If you have something set aside that's only used for spiritual purposes, it means more. So if you talk Hebrew on a day-to-day basis, and then you go to pray, I don't think it means as much as if you only use Hebrew to pray or study holy texts. And historically, even like Dematria like that, that it's harder to think about Dematria if you use Hebrew for mundane purposes. And I think there is something too that the Hebrew is set aside for spiritual purposes. And it means more, you know, like, I don't know if, you know, like you chant, you go to synagogue, the prayers. In English, it doesn't mean that much of the downtown synagogue. We used to chant in English and, you know, we even had created our own sitter where a guy translated kind of like a rhyme translation. And it just doesn't mean as much in English because we use English for mundane things. And I'm just a more guys educated and he studied in anti-Zionist, but at least non-Zionist Yeshivas that disapproved of using the Hebrew language for mundane purposes. And I do think there's something to that. And Judas, any thoughts? Yeah, I disagree on several points. First of all, we always include like in the Tanakh people spoke Hebrew, the prophets spoke Hebrew, they didn't speak Aramaic, right? And when they did speak Aramaic, the few times they when Aramaic became the lingua franca, the instituted prayers in Aramaic, like the Kaddish, like Yikum purkan, and Aramaic is not a Jewish language, it was the language of the invader. So we were very utilitarian about language. Not only that, we've adopted Hebrew, Hebrew from British. It's not the same Hebrew as in Yermiao or Yicheskel or in Yop. So Hebrew always was a ancient Hebrew was a living, evolving language. And still thank God is living and evolving. And I'm part of that organism. It's true. I'm going to concede that if you set aside a language only for services, it's going to have a certain effect. And that's, you have right now a big, a big conflict in the Catholic Church, right? The Catholic Church just started allowing mass in English and it was only in Latin before. And a lot of the traditionalists are complaining, no, we should have Latin mass, because they want to maintain that. I don't, I don't have a problem with English services per se. I just have a problem with, I just want to follow the services of the men of the great assembly, because that's the halakha. The halakha is, this is what you say. So I don't add and I don't subtract. Even though I'm a Zionist, I don't do the prayer for the state of Israel, because I don't do halel with the blessing on Yom HaTzimahut, because I follow ancient rabbinic law as it was coded by the Chameim in the Talmud. So to me, that's what I follow. The idea that we shouldn't revive spoken Hebrew is a common anti-Zionist idea, Duvin, but it's just wrong on so many levels. It's the Mishneh Torah Menchah. I think it was the Mishneh Torah. I'm trying to remember who, many, some of the, especially you shouldn't use Hebrew for mundane purposes. What does that mean? You shouldn't go to work and speak to your co-workers in Hebrew? I mean, Hebrew is specifically Lush and Qayesh. It's used for God, these spiritual things for prayer and to use it for anything other than that cheapens in. It's like in Israel. If I, you know, like I'm coaching chests to Israelis over the internet, I tell them I'm Hindu. They're like, it's cool. I tell them I studied under these Rebbi's. They don't think it's cool. And even in the army, you know, saying like, I just went to the Hare Krishna's, I would probably, the army would probably give me more, the Israeli army would probably, you know, grant more leeway for me to be Hare Krishna in the Israeli army than to be a Hasidic Jew. I think it's related to the speaking Hebrew as a mundane thing, that you have all these Hebrew speaking people that hate the Jewish religion. So I'm going to respond to that. First of all, regarding just speaking Hebrew for mundane purposes, what do you think the tribes of Israel spoke when they entered Canaan and they conquered it from their from the Canaanites? What language did they speak? It's a dispute. I mean, I'm not sure if it's a dispute in the Talmud, but I mean, it's a dispute among the sages. According to the Torah, what is it? What language does the Torah say they spoke? You probably know this better than me, but unfortunately, I think that it's a dispute that the ancient Israelites, even in Egypt, whether they spoke Hebrew or not, is okay. There's no dispute. I'm sorry. I'm going to quote it for you. There is no dispute that the Israelites in Egypt, as far as the Chahamim is concerned, I'm not talking about like historians, because as far as the Torah is concerned, there is no dispute that they spoke Hebrew in Egypt. And that was where it said, like Rashid even mentions this Midrash at Shemoth. And what merit did the Jews who sinned in Egypt, what merit did they leave? And the merit that they didn't change their names, they didn't change their language, and they didn't change their clothing. They kept their identity. And part of their identity was the Hebrew language. And they came into Israel speaking Hebrew. That was a language they spoke for holy things and for mundane things. If there was only like one fifth of the Jews that made it out, presumably the 80% of the Jews that didn't make it out were the ones that were speaking Egyptian. Okay. That may be the case, but the language that the majority of the Jews even the majority of the Jews in the time of Egypt didn't speak Hebrew. They spoke Egyptian. Okay. So, you know what? I'm not going to belabor that point, but because it's irrelevant to what I'm trying to prove. What I'm trying to tell you is that the Jews, the Israelite tribes in ancient Israel, under the prophets and the kings and whatnot, the language they spoke was Hebrew. This is indisputable. In the book of Kings, you have Sanhaireb surrounding the walls of Jerusalem. And he's marking, taunting the king in Hebrew. And the king's messengers are saying, please, can you speak to us in Aramaic? Because he didn't want the people to understand because they spoke Hebrew. People spoke Hebrew. Hebrew became a religious language because we were in exile. And the problem with the anti-Zionist Jews, including Hasidim, is that they take the exile situation, they turn that into the Katchila. They turn that into the official way of how Judaism is supposed to be. No, it's a mistake. We were forced. We were raped into exile. And the fact that we speak Yiddish, that's fine. I speak Yiddish as well as you. But the language of Yiddish is a foreign language. It's German. It's low German that we've adapted for our own use because we forgot Hebrew. Right? So, ancient is- For mundane purposes. That you're saying that Yiddish speakers use Yiddish for mundane activities. And the more holy people speak less. They don't waste words. They're not going to waste words in Hebrew because words in Hebrew carry more effect. So, if you're going to say something like, where's the bathroom? You're better off saying that in Yiddish than Hebrew. Okay, I don't agree with that. I mean, we went to the same school. So, I'm not really saying like, I heard- There's no source in the- We heard the stuff from the same people, relatively. We did. We had similar educations, but we've come to different conclusions. So, we both kind of rejected the schools in certain ways. You rejected other things that I have. I just said, you're an authentic Jew. I'm only a half Jew. I had that education, but I was chosen to do different things based on my lineage. So, I mean, we went through the same education, but you're 100% Jew and have a different mission than me as a half Jew. Okay, so, David, I'm gonna- This, we had this argument 100 times in person, but since it's public, I'm just gonna say this because I don't want people watching to think that someone can be a half Jew. If your mom was Jewish, David, you're my brother like everyone else. If she wasn't, then you need to convert to be my brother like every other Jew. There's no such thing as half Jew in our tradition. There may have been a time where we looked at it that way. You're a Syrian. Come on, like, it's on every- It's hanging on the wall in the synagogues you went to in Brooklyn. I'm not allowed to convert according to your sages. I can't even- You're allowed to convert. According to the Ashkenazic rabbis that I went to, this is what they told me, according to your Syrian rabbis, it doesn't matter if my mom's Jewish or not. I can't convert to be your brother even if I want to. If your mom- No, no, that's not what the Syrian thing is. The Syrian community doesn't accept converts. That's true in America and in Latin America, but that's a- It doesn't mean that converts aren't Jews. The same ruling where half Jews should be considered non-Jews and forbidden to- That's no. That's not true. It's part of the same ruling. Okay, but they're all they're doing is saying we don't want converts in our community, but converts are definitely Jews. We just want a community without converts, and there's social reasons they did that. You can argue that- There's a punishment that should- Should a Jewish woman marry a non-Jewish man that their children will be considered non-Jewish and not allowed to convert into the full? That was the intention of the Syrian rabbis to prevent intermarriage. It would say that if a Jewish woman, even though there is holocaque precedence that you're a full Jew, that we will consider them a non-Jew. Okay, so- That's your rabbis. We're getting into tangents. If your mom was Jewish, by Jewish law, you're Jewish, regardless of what any Syrian rabbis says, they can't change rabbinic law because they have some beautiful ethnicity from Halab, from Damascus or from Aleppo, doesn't make them authoritative to take an ancient Jewish law and abrogate it. They can't do that. Just like Hasidim can't decide to pray minkha in the middle of the night. Rules are rules. If you're a Jew, David, you're a Jew. If you're not, you're not. I can treat you like a brother, even if you're not a Jew. I'm okay with- Your mission is different based on your lineage and saying it's not so clear. The Talmud, Rabbi Kiva says that I'm a momzer. It's a dispute in the Talmud and you say, okay, it's the Ashkenazic rabbis that hold if your mother's a Jew, you're a Jew, but you don't even follow those Ashkenazic rabbis. No, it's not Ashkenazic. Everybody agrees. It's not Ashkenazic. Rabbi Kiva in the Talmud and you've almost- No, that's a misquote. And even- It's not a misquote. Rabbi Kiva clearly says that I'm a momzer. Okay, so we're getting into various tangents. You may or may- Even if he said you're a momzer, which he didn't, right? The ruling is not what Rabbi Kiva said. There's a conclusion of how we are- the Chachamim are deciding then and there how legislatively we're going to treat half-breeds and the decision was cast. You can like it or you can dislike it. It was voted on and ruled that we the Jews are going to accept matrilineal Jews as Jews and patrilineal Jews need to convert. That's what we've decided. Are you a matrilineal Jew? Yes or no? I'm not- This is theoretical. If you are- I'm convinced my mother, you know, DNA 99.4%, you know, she's a Bambiger, her lineage. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that I'm basically, you know, completely Jewish on my mother's side. And I consider myself Jewish, but I think that I was- I think that I have a different mission based on lineage, that it makes a difference that my father's not Jewish and that I was- I'm meant to do different things for the Jewish people than you are. All right. I don't mind you having a different mission. And I think that's what the rabbis told me. It's like- I don't have a problem. I was saying I was even recruited by the rabbis for that. I told Joseph Cohn, counterpart Indian, they recruited me for casinos, which might have been true actually, but like, no, I was recruited by the rabbis and it wasn't so. It was for things that, you know, it was based on my lineage so that I would be able to do different things for them. And I told you I was above of like, you know, what I did- I want to respond to what you said about Israelis hating religion. All right. You said earlier that in Israel, people hate- Hebrew speaking Jews hate religion. All right. You said? Yeah. I said that I tell my Israeli friends about being Hindu and they think that's cool. And I tell them about, you know, it's, you know, serving these Hasidic rabbis and they don't think that's cool. And I'll tell you that they're 100% right. The division that Chiloni Israelis that non-religious Israelis have for Hasidic rabbis is 100% deserved. All right. On every level. Okay. I say this to someone who has no, I'm not one of these OTG guys who has personal beef with Hasidic rabbis. I know some of them personally. I'm coming clean and clean. You went to Mir Yashiva. I'm a Bol Chuva. I didn't really know any of the stuff till I was 18. Most Orthodox Jews consider that pretty impressive that I got into a Mir Yashiva. Israelis, none of them considered impressive that I went to Mir Yashiva. Okay. None of them. But the vast majority, maybe you considered impressive that I went to Mir Yashiva and spent years of my life studying Talmud. Your average Israeli does not consider that impressive. And for good reason. There's a good reason why they don't consider it impressive because we, the observant Jews have mistreated our fellow citizens on so many ways. Okay. And we've misrepresented the Torah in so many ways that it's such a hillul Hashem that I understand why a secular person would look at Talmudists and think they're insane. I understand why if I told them I went to Mir Yashiva, they wouldn't be impressed. It makes sense to me. You know why? Because the Yashiva system in Israel is a huge financial drain on the country. And they are disingenuous liars, right? How are they disingenuous liars? I'll explain. They, on the one hand, they argue that they're not Zionists, that the Torah is what's the most important thing. Okay. And the Torah is what keeps the whole country going. And therefore, everybody has to finance them. And everybody has to take the burden of self, of defending the country off of them. So they don't have to defend the country. They don't have to pay taxes. They can be a class of just a welfare class, right? All the complaints that Adam Green makes about Jews in general are basically parallel to the way that the curriculum feel about Israelis. Like, you do all the work, I make all the money, because that's the way that God made it. And in Israel, that's the curriculum feel. Like, God forbid, you do all the work, I make all the money because that's the way God made it. You don't make all the money. No, no, you take tax. I work, right? I pay 40% of my income to taxes, right? That taxes goes to pay for a lifestyle of people who don't produce anything of any value. Israeli law, that being an orthodox Jew is a bigger service to Israel than serving in the army. It's not that you get an exemption. Israel recognizes that being karate is a secure-year service than serving in the army. That's the law is written. It's not an exemption. It's saying that the service of being orthodox is serviced to Israel in and of itself. Let's do this. Let's do the following. Because we're running into debate mode, I think we should have time. I'm not even great. I'm a half Jew. But I was in Israel. We went to the school. Okay, I'll jump in here. Let each person make a point at a time without interruption. So, Judas, go ahead and make any points you want to make, and then I'll allow Dover to make any points he wants to make. And I'll be quiet. Okay. There's a good reason why emotionally an Israeli person, whatever level of religiousness he may or may not have, will feel bitterness towards heredim and will not be impressed by your turmeric training. All right. And the reason is that he feels that the burden of defending the country and financing this economy is falling on him while the heredim, they one, they do not produce anything of value to me, to me or to any other Israeli. And secondly, they demand not just support financially, defense militarily, they also demand that we other citizens follow their rules. So, all of a sudden, they want the state to have to be Jewish as far as buses on Shabbat. So, they want Haifa, which is mostly secular city, to not have buses on Shabbat. Now, I'm a Shabbat observer. I don't ride a bus on Shabbat. And I'm not excited about seeing buses on Shabbat, but we live in a democracy. And I'm not going to legislate for secular people that they can't have buses. Now, if I'm, if you're not Zionist, and you're always arguing that Jews shouldn't have a state, why are you defending on the one hand the Jewishness of the state while taking all this money from the state and not serving in the military when the service is called for? Now, you've responded that, well, Israeli law, the only reason it's Israeli law is because of the electoral power of the Hamedi parties that hold the balance of power. It's not that most Israelis don't want that. It's the Kharedim that want that. And Israelis deal with that as a burden. That's the reality. Now, the fact that we have that burden makes many of us, myself, as a rabbi who prays every day, who studies Talmud out of love, lives in a settlement, I'm also bitter. We're all bitter about it. And what makes me even more bitter, and with this self-finish, is that I see this as a strategic threat to our survival in the future. Because if Kharedim continue to procreate at the level they are, and we enable them to continue to grow to the level they are, they will be the majority. And they will not be able to defend this country from its enemies. And therefore, I am bitter, and I have the right to be bitter. And therefore, when someone tells me I went to Mir-Yushiva as a Talmudist, personally, I get it because I like Talmud. But as a member, as a citizen of the state, as a member of the Jewish nation, I'm sorry to say that the Kharedim are a existential threat, just like the Arabs are. And there's a threat that needs to be dealt with somehow. And that's where the bitterness comes from. And it makes sense. And if Kharedim were either more liverlet live and allowed Khaldim to have their own lives, and they had their own lives, it would be one thing. If they integrated where Zionists served in the military, went to work, did everything that all other Jews did, but served God and did all the things like I do, right? That would also be okay. But the fact that they want to have their cake and eat it too, creates a large, an enormous amount of bitterness, and prevents millions of Jews from keeping Shabbat, from keeping Kishore, from being religious, because they associate religion with this kind of this kind of terrible behavior. Okay, okay, David, your thoughts? I was arguing with Luke saying that you're basically the Adam Green argument. Well, that's the way God made it, Goy, I'm sorry. And the Kharedim also saying that the righteous, the wicked reaped in the righteous so. And saying that, no, what I do as a Jew, that I put on to fill in, and I go and study Talmud, that that's what God wants. And your service is the whole purpose of it, is so that I could be Kharedim. And okay, go ahead and hate me. In fact, if I were you, I'd want to kill me if I, you're like, it makes sense that the Goy want to kill the Jews. It makes sense that the Israelis don't like us. But that's just the way God created the system. Judas, is it true that that's the way God created the system? It's not look, you can say that by nature, you're always going to have parasitic elements. And when you let a parasite stay in the body in the host body, the parasite grows on the Kharedim are definitely a parasitic element that need to be dealt with. They need to be removed. Doesn't mean you have to kick out the Kharedim, but they need to change their behavior. This whole thing of anti-Semite say the same thing, let Judas finish his point then you can make your point. Anti-Semite say the same thing to me. That's demagoguery. Who cares if it's true, it's true. If it's false, it's false. You have no business taking what's not yours. You have no business being disingenuous, lying. You have no business misrepresenting the Torah. If King David could serve in the army and all of our prophets, none of them said we're prophets, we don't have to serve. It shouldn't exist for Kharedim either. Not paying, look, I'm a libertarian in a way, I don't like high taxes, but if you're going to be a tax receiver, you also have to be a tax giver. You cannot only be a receiver, not a giver. That's why you're seen as a parasite. And the truth is, the reality is, here in Israel, the non-religious Israelis are too kind to the Kharedim. You're not allowed to discriminate against Kharedim at work. You're not allowed to say anything bad about them when the Avigdor Lieberman, who's the minister of finance in Israel, said something negative about Kharedim. The left, the right, everyone attacked him. So the anti-Kharedi feelings are being kept bottled up because of Jewish solidarity. And as a result, we are endangering our future. Because the Kharedi future, we won't survive. Israel will not survive if we're all Shas and Gimmel. And I don't accept that that's what God wants. I don't accept that their Torah has any value. Before you came on, Duvud, we were talking about you're not allowed to take Torah for money. Torah is supposed to be altruistic. It's supposed to be for God. None of this is for God. We also spoke how it's supposed to be, not pulling rank, but it's supposed to be this open Bet-Midrash. Everybody's involved in the Torah. It's not supposed to be Ghidol. I'm telling people what to do. As far as I'm concerned, as Jew, as a real, authentic descendant of King David or something, I feel definitely Aharonah Cohen from my mother's side, I look at Kharedim as an aberration of pure traditional Judaism as another religion. They should have rights to exist in Israel, just like Christians and Muslims have rights, but I don't see them as representing pure Torah. Okay, yeah, Duvud, your turn. Yeah, and I say that the whole purpose of Israel is for the Kharedim that unfortunately, like, no, you're lacking in your Judaism. You're a worse Jew than the Kharedi, and you probably do hate the Kharedi, and that's why God punishes you. It makes you work to support them and fight to defend them, and that's just called karma and scarve oneness. Because you hate them, God punishes you to make you work to support them and fight to defend them, and instead of repenting and recognizing that that's the way you're supposed to be as a Jew, and that's just the way the system is, and saying, like, to some extent, that's what I say. What's your service to Israel being Kharedi? Any other service is a lesser service, and you have to recognize that and support the Kharedim, and if you do it begrudgingly, that's why you get punished, and that's why you have to do these horrible things and work so hard to support them as opposed to voluntarily doing it, and saying, like, we went to the same schools, and saying, like, I'm not making this stuff up, he could reject that, and he did reject that, saying, like, you rejected the same rabbis that I accepted, and you were punished, now you have to work and pay for them, and you have to fight to defend them, and good, you know, you could hate them, and you should hate them, I'm glad you hate them, and that's why you're being punished by having to fight to defend them and work to pay for them. Okay, so let me take it in a slightly different direction. One more question for Duvid. Duvid, what's your attitude towards Adam Green? I like Adam Green because he quotes these rabbis and saying, like, like, he's putting it out there, is saying, like, what the definition of karate is tremble, fear, people who fear God more than man, and I said that to Judas when he was on there, that is saying that was his test, and I thought he failed, that, you know, your karate, God forbid, authentic Judaism means that we don't fear death, we don't fear man, we walk with God regardless of what happens, and so Adam Green is kind of like this godsend that's putting the books out there, and, you know, to charade him also, he's saying, do we actually believe what we're preaching in the high level? He was saying, okay, you know, the Talmud, Rebekah, Moses, this is Torah, this is its reward, and, you know, okay, Judas wants to call my bluff, well, maybe I'm going to call your bluff, and what's the bluff? The bluff is that, God forbid, we're going to be tortured to death, and I'm going to crash my useful, and, you know, I assume Judas is going to say the same thing. Yes, if I get tortured to death for being a Jew, what I'm going to do is crash my useful. Okay, Judas, any thoughts? About what? Anything that you've heard in the last five minutes. Well, okay, so anybody who's watched the debate between Adam Green and me, and the conversation between David, Duvid, and Adam Green can see me, because he's Duvid. Duvid is agreeing with Adam Green. He's basically taking a Hitlerian anti-Semite, who has, this guy on a personal level, on DMs, me and Adam Green get along. He'll sometimes ask me a Talmud question, and he helped me technical stuff, because I'm a boomer. We don't have a personal, but it's obvious that he is disturbed, obsessed with these ideas of Jewish dominance and like Jewish control over the world. And if you watch this debate with Duvid, Duvid is agreeing with him about things that are not true. So he's feeding, and all the anti-Semites I've come across, they'll all say the most honest Jews, Duvid, because he admits the Jews control the world, because he admits the Jews are out to corrupt Western society, and he admits the Jews want to wipe out the white man. So as any interaction that Duvid has with white nationalists and with anti-Semites, I think it's a khilul Hashem, and it actually probably will result on some level in death of other Jews, for no reason, not justified, because he's admitting to things that are literally not true. So I actually have a bone to pick with Duvid about that, and I think Joseph was too soft on you. I think, Duvid, if you were an actual Jew, which I'm not sure you are, maybe this whole mom being Jewish thing is, maybe you're a larper, I don't know. But if you were an actual Jew and you were in the time of the Ashkenaz Rabbis in Europe, you would have been one of those Muslims that they would have drowned in the mikvah, because he's dangerous to the Jewish community, and in a way, you are dangerous. Not that anyone cares about what you say, and not that your channel is that popular, but your interaction with our enemies is sometimes, something you need to consider. There's often time, that point that can cause someone to commit a murder, commit a shooting, and so on. You're admitting in our name things that we never did, while it's doubtful that you're even one of us. So it's like, it's anti-Semitic on many levels. That's number one. Number two, regarding, like, Kharedim being real Judaism. If you watched my, you watched any of my videos, you watched my debate with Green, I represent traditional Torah. Okay, I bring Torah sources. Why would the Kharedim are doing violate the most foundational principles of the Torah, from the Tanakh, from the Talmud, from Maimonides, from our ancient tradition, they've perverted it and used it for their own needs. I do not accept that we have to bow down to them because they look like a caricature of what anti-Semite think Jews are. That doesn't mean that they are the perfect image of Judaism. I reject them, right? Ideologically, theologically, and halakhically. I just reject them, not because I'm better than them and not because they did anything bad to me, but because I observe their behavior. I reject you, Duvid, because I've watched your interactions with anti-Semites and I think they're dangerous. As I've said earlier, that's my response to what you said. Wow, that was pretty strong, Duvid, any thoughts? Yeah, I defended the Jews. I told Adam Green straight up that I will be on the side of the Jews. I'm here to defend the Jews. Unlike you, I defended all Jews. I defended secular, liberal, bad Jews. And all I did, and I wasn't a moiser in any way, God forbid, I know a ton of information. I know a ton of names. I've never given any of them over. God forbid, I've never once revealed any information that would be bad to the Jews, to anybody that could harm the Jews. And God forbid, I never would. But I did say that, yes, this is what our books teach and this is what we're supposed to believe. And that I was straight up about. I was like, yes, that's what we believe. That's what our books say. Being a moiser, saying information, revealing secrets, God forbid. And obviously, I didn't seek any of these people out. They sought me out. And even Luke Ford set me up to speak to these people. You're the one who asked to speak to Richard Spencer and Adam Green. I did not seek speaking really to any of these people. I didn't put myself out to speak to any of them. They sought to speak to me, probably because I'm a half Jew. You're relatively. And my goal was to defend the Jews and all Jews. And yes, I will be on the side of the Jews. I'm not on the side of the anti-Semites at all. But I did defend that, yes, this is what I was taught in the schools. This is what the books say. And I'm not going to be apologetic about it. And God forbid, it's saying that the rhomboms principle, the righteous will be rewarded and the wicked will be punished. And yes, that is what our books say. And when he asked me about all these verses, it was you who was the heretic and said, oh, that's just the legend stuff. And it was me who said what the rhombom says, that yes, there is the righteous will be rewarded and the wicked will be punished. Judas, any thoughts? Yeah. So obviously, I'm not arguing that you, gave anti-Semites my address and sent them to kill me. And now it wouldn't work because I'm well armed. I live in the West Bank and I have my own militia. So I'm not worried about that. But what you're doing is justifying their arguments and admitting to something that we have never done. Do you realize it would be equivalent to a blood libel in Europe? All right. And then you have some Jewish guy who says, yeah, according to the Kabbalah, maybe at some point we may have used a little blood for the masses. And now, five years later, they go and kill 50, 60, 100 Jews. That's what you're doing. You don't defend Judaism. David, David, David, David, David, I don't interrupt you. I listened respectfully. And then I, I respond to disrespect for you. You're going to respond to everything I say. No problem. But you're just straight up. My point is my point is that he got me on. Okay, David, none of them are, I didn't say any of those things. David, let Judas finish his point then. He'll let you finish your point. Go ahead, Judas. You know what? I can let you, you can continue your points for longer. And then I'll have my say, but when I speak, I don't want to be interrupted, right? Your action in your debates with Adam Green and such is you are admitting to them things that we Jews as a collective have never accepted responsibility for. You claim to be a half Jew because your mom may or may not be Jewish. It's, it's the worst kind of larping possible. You're pretending to be a Jew in order to go on to anti-Semitic websites and shows and to tell them that we Jews are all the things they say we are. And then you call yourself on the side of the Jews because theoretically in some pogrom, you're maybe going to be on the side of the Jews because you have some death wish. Nobody cares that you die with the Jews if you're causing the death of Jews. I am arguing, Duvid, that your actions, your behavior, it makes people more anti-Semitic. Now, if you were, could argue at least, I'm being honest, I'm telling the truth. You are not telling the truth. The Jews do not control the world. The rabbis did not teach that we're supposed to dominate the Goyim and we're supposed to manipulate them. Khabar and the seven mitzvot of Noah is not a way to control the Gentiles, like Adam Green believes. And the fact that you're conceding these points is dangerous to us. That is bad to us. So as a real Jew, I'm telling you, shit, or get off the pot. If you're a member of the Jewish community, then we clean up the Jews for whatever reason because I think you deep down, you know, your mom may or may not be Jewish and I don't mean, I don't care if you're Jewish or not. I can respect people of all faiths, all religions and all backgrounds. But for you to use your half Jewish, your fake Jewish ancestry or whatever Judy has even claimed to have and whatever you went to Mir Yashiva, you've never once conversed with me in Hebrew or in Yiddish. You've never once, we've had many conversations in private. You never once could discuss a Talmudic quote with me properly. You would send me a safari, a link and the link is saying something else than you say it was. And I've tried to engage you many times and I'm willing to bite the bullet right here from wrong if you're willing to engage me in speaking in Hebrew and let's review a Jewish text and see that you can even read the Torah. But if you can't read the Torah, it's original. You don't know Aramaic and you don't know Talmud. And you heard some bullshit stories from some unemployed rabbis sitting in a Bet-Midrash in Jerusalem that doesn't give you the right to go on the Nazi podcast and say that we do things that we never did. Okay. That's my problem if you do. You gotta look in the mirror. You're talking to yourself, not me. I never once put myself out to speak to anti-Semites. Adam Green reached out to me. I was on the John Frey's Qarepi and I debated him on an issue that had nothing to do with Judaism and Adam Green reached out to me and asked me to be on this show. He'll turn. None of those people did I of my own initiative and I was hesitant to speak to all of them and it was actually Luke Ford's buddy Brundlefly that I'm gonna say he begged me. He asked me again and again to speak to these people. You know, God forbid I have my YouTube channel. I've been promoting Judaism in Detroit for over 10 years. I have put to fill in on hundreds of people. I have taught thousands of people how to say Qadish and yes, there are anti-Semites and they reached out to me. I did not reach out to them and when Adam Green, I did not give him any of their statements. He put out text that the sages say and I debated Christopher Van Jerkness who said those type things and I pushed back about on them. I defended all of the Jews, even the secular ones and when Adam Green showed me the text from the Talmud and from the sages, I said yes, I stand by those statements even if they're not politically incorrect and you have to look in the mirror. You're the one who asked to speak to those people. You're the one that agreed with these people that the majority of Jews in America are bad as where I defended all Jews including secular and liberal Jews. The fact that you may or may not have asked to go on the show is not what's relevant. What's relevant to this conversation. You're the one who asked to go on those shows. Yeah but that's not the point. Of course it's the point. You're in the mirror. I did not ask to go on those shows. I did my obligation and stepped up to defend the Jews. You are the one that purposely asked to go on those shows in order to bash American Jews. Anybody that goes, anybody that watches, anybody that watches your debate duvid with Adam and even with others, I haven't watched all of them. Joseph Cohen had to go through with a fine-tuned cone to pick out a tiny bit of things that just hinted that even those statements that he found basically supported that I was there to defend Jews, all Jews and the sacredness of our text. No so Joseph was very polite to you because he's a very nice British gentleman because he knows nothing about Judaism and his rabbi you who probably taught him about Judaism doesn't know much about Judaism either. I'm sorry. You're the trade or not me. Okay one person at a time, Judas. First of all Joseph can read Hebrew and read Talmud and read Tanach better than you can. I can guarantee you that. The fact that you wasted time smoking weed in Mir Yashiva doesn't give you the authority when you can't even quote, you can't even pronounce Pasuk properly. So take it easy with comparing yourself to Joseph. He's done more for the Jewish nation, for Torah and for God than you ever will. Not to mention all of his fighting against anti-Semites all over the world. David was in the Rosh Hashanah Rabbi Nussan-Sweets Finkel's class for three months. No I can't speak Hebrew. I'm a half Jew and I still fumble my Hebrew. I'm sorry. So then you don't get to you if you can speak Hebrew. But I was in Mir. I did sit in Nussan-Sweets Finkel a blessed memories class for three months. Sitting in a room for three months. If I go now and spend three months in the Vatican listening to Mass on Latin doesn't make me an authority on Catholic theology. Do you get that? I did what the rabbis told me. You're the traitor, not me. I did what the rabbis told me. Okay listen, listen dear larper, it's not your job. If you cannot read Hebrew, you don't get to defend the Torah. Do you understand that? I was defending the Jews. No, you were not. If someone needs a Hebrew lesson, I'll send them to you. That's fine. Great. Anybody who wants to learn Hebrew, you know, go to Judas, not me. Great. David, I'm not trying to shame you for not speaking Hebrew. I'm not here to humiliate you. It's really not personal. Maybe I took this argument. I made it to... You see, there's a traitor to Judaism. It's you not. Too confidential. You called me a traitor. You're the guy with Judas. You're the guy who begged to speak to these anti-Semites as opposed to me who was put to fill in on hundreds of people and was standing up for Jews and spoke to them, put myself out there to defend the Jews where it's you are the traitor. You are the one to beg to speak to those people and you are the one to bash the Jews to these people. Do it. Do it. Even if you put the fill in on hundreds of people, the moment you go to on a show that has tens of thousands of viewers and you tell them that everything that Hitler, you're saying nonsense. I didn't quote Hitler. I quote the Talmud. I didn't say any of that stuff. Joseph Cuone, you guys went through that with a fine-tooth comb and you only found four tiny statements. You didn't quote the Talmud because you cannot read Talmud because your three months in Mir Yashiva didn't help you learn Aramaic and it's not because... One and a half years, three months in Reb Nussan, Stinko, a Blessed Memories class. Do it. You still cannot read Gomorrah. You open up a page of Gomorrah. You're lost. You need art scrolls to even find heads and tails in it. You can't read Tanakh. If you opened up your Mir Yashiva right now, you don't even know what Prophet Jeremiah said in the original language. Who gives you the right to get on a show and defend Judaism when you don't even know the basics of Judaism? You know nothing. Admit that. You know enough to put fill in on Norvies. You could put fill in on some Aramaic. I'm okay with that. I'm not complaining. You can teach so much to say the Kadish. That's good. But the fact that you do good things doesn't mean that all the bad things you do are kosher. Could you admit at least that what you did in Adam Green's show was bad? You're saying like, no, I stood up to defend the Jews and I'm proud of it. Okay, so you're proud of it. All right. Okay, let me ask you this. I would do it again. I would defend the Jews against you too. Just like I defend the Jews against Adam Green, I defend the Jews against a traitor like you. There, let me ask you this. Let me ask you another question. From that entire debate, was there any statement, one statement anywhere, that is in any way regrettable? Or is everything perfect? Do you regret anything? Of course, I'm a fallible person. I probably say a lot of mistakes. I did my best. Give me one. I was extremely careful. Tell me, oh, that was you being careful. That's nice. Tell me one thing that you think that maybe was a little overdone. Adam Green? Yeah. May he hit me with Christopher Van Jerkness? And I was defending the Jews to the best of my ability. Okay, I think we've each set our piece. I'm not going to convince you any more than you. Okay, great. Take a break, take a break. We could go on to a different subject. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. I want to pivot here. So Judas, I presume you don't have a perfect memory. So Judas, why don't you give an example of something that a Jew might say in a debate with Nazis that would not be helpful for the Jews? So you don't have a transcript in front of you. I was the one who set you up to speak to Adam Green. I was the one who reached out to Adam Green and said I'm a half Jew. I told him you're the authentic Jew. I told him I'm a Jew who went to your schools and studied under big rabbis, but I'm only half Jew. And I am the one who referred you to speak to him. Okay, let's get back to ideas. Let's get back to ideas. So Judas, we don't have a transcript here. Judas, why don't you give an example of what you recall from your memory? And let's not even attribute it to anyone. Let's not attribute it to them or to me or anyone. Just from your memory, perhaps give an example. Give two examples if they come to mind. I'll give one example. Yeah, of things that you might have heard a Jew saying in a debate with a Nazi that you thought was not helpful. So we'll concentrate on the ideas rather than the personalities. Go ahead, Judas. Okay, so here's one that I remember all fans. I don't remember all. There were as many as one that I remember all fans. And it's as follows, I'm not going to mention names. All right, there's an anti-Semite. Okay, the name begins with an A and he says something like, he brings a quote from the Talmud or from the Navi prophets that say that in the future, the nations of the world will serve the Jews. Okay, and he turns to the Jew, me or do it or anyone. And he says, do you want me to serve you? Is this what your Torah says? Are you going to enslave us? What is the correct answer? So the wrong, I don't know, whatever the correct answer is, this is the answer you're not supposed to give. Yes, this is this answer, the worst answer you can give. Yes, the Jews are a managerial class and the Gentiles are a peasant worker class. In fact, the Gentiles want to be led by Jews. It's better for them to be controlled by Jews because this way they get to like work with their hands and like it nails into things and do all these physical things. Well, Jews sit around and they're managerial. They don't have good hands. They can't build like a farm. They can't like do things in real life. They need to manage the goyim. That's a good thing and that's what the Torah says that I'm owning it. You see, that is bad. Why is that bad? Because it's not true. And also it's bad because it makes the Gentile psycho paranoid antisemites say, look here you have a guy with the beard who went to Yeshiva who knows Torah apparently even though he can't read, right? And he's admitting to me that this is Jewish theology, right? And then now that's all he needs to back up his idea that the Jews want to control the world. The right answer is to do the Navian context and to explain how Navi works and explain that in fact in the ancient world it was common for people to enslave other people. Then to think of your enemy as someone who's going to serve you was considered a part of the blessing and it doesn't have to be literal in that exact way and it doesn't make you a heretic. If that Gemara doesn't have another thing it's not something you need to physically do even if it's a prediction of the prophets. You're not supposed a prediction is not a commandment. You don't have to go enslave the goyim right now. So we have a prediction that one day the heavens will serve us. So what? Christians don't have predictions that all the heretics will die. Muslims don't have predictions that everyone who doesn't accept Hamad will go to hell. You can't believe things like that. We have those things in our texts if you don't like it too bad but nowhere are we planning to be a managerial class to manage you to control you. That is a sick thing to say. That's terrible especially if you're not Jewish. All right? That's my point. Okay, Duvud. So now we've got a discussion about ideas. We're not discussing the merits of any particular individual. What do you think about the ideas that Judas just raised? Yeah, well, I don't think Adam Green is an anti-Semite. I think if Adam Green becomes an anti-Semite it's probably Joseph Cohn's fault for falsely accusing him of anti-Semitism. And yes, we discussed that with Luke. Yes, I do consider Jews essentially a managerial class but I did not say what he said even on the show, even the clips that Joseph Cohn had of me on the show that say you don't get to mistreat Goiom. We're not trying to rule over them. But yes, we are a managerial class. We do consider that we fulfill a higher special function. And I was clear that you can't mistreat Goiom and that we're not going to rule over and that in our belief system it's going to be so to say good for the Goiom. And I made the point that Judas fails to say that the Rambam, it's a principle that yes, we do expect to be rewarded. It's not to say that God forbid, if I get tortured to death for being a Jew I will accept my lot that I did not sign up for this to be rewarded. I don't want to be tortured to death for being a Jew but should that be God's plan, so be it God forbid. However, I am required to believe from the Rambam and from the sages that the righteous will be rewarded and the wicked will be punished. And so when the prophets say like yes when the Chabad rabbi does all this stuff, when a karate does all this stuff and we follow the law and we follow the halacha and not because we're selfish or greedy and we could quote the sources in the Torah and the perky elbows, don't be like the slave who serves the master for the sake of the reward but we are required to believe that the righteous will be rewarded and the wicked will be punished and I wasn't scared to say that in front of anti-Semites. And Judas any reaction to those ideas? Look, without getting all euphemistic about dying from my beliefs and so on we don't have to get into that. Yeah, I agree that we're here to serve God in Torah. I agree with these general statements. I don't disagree with that. I just maintain that your stance vis-a-vis Gentiles who hate us, you can say that, ah, you said Adam Green is not an anti-Semite. Give me a break. The guy does daily shows about how Jews are trying to control the world and destroy everyone and destroy humanity and you say he's not an anti-Semite. If he's not an anti-Semite, then I'm not Jewish. Like it's an insane thing to say anybody who's watching this who has ever watched Adam Green knows he's an anti-Semite. And I'm not against debating him. I wanted to debate him because I wanted to undo some of the damage that you and people like you have done. I think that, I think that it's okay to be honest about things that Jews as a group have done wrong. But it's not okay to dishonestly misrepresent our belief system as one that they fear, right? That's the problem that I have, right? And the fact that maybe there's some crazy rabbi in Masharim who believes that doesn't mean that that's accepted Jewish belief. That's all. That's all I have to say about that. And the Rambam says it's a requirement. You chant it in the sitter every day that an imamim, that the righteous will be rewarded and the wicked will be punished. And that doesn't mean the Goyim are going to become slaves. It's a required part of our belief system. And to say that when the prophets say that at the end of the day- Yeah, we agree with that. I agree with that though. I don't disagree with you. I agree with Adam Green. Like no, no, I don't think that the righteous are going to be rewarded and the wicked are going to be punished. I didn't say that. That's not what I said. I said, I don't think we're trying to control you. I don't think the Jews want to- I say that you're a managerial class. You're saying like, yes. And if you remember what I talked about, I talked with Eric Stryker. I talked about mortgage brokers in real estate agents and dentists and doctors and banking. I said, yes, be proud of it. And I'm an Ashkenazic Jew. And with my Ashkenazic Jewish ancestors, weren't really biblical Jews like Judas. We did create banking for the West. And I'm proud of that. That banking in the West was developed from capitalist and from Jews. And yes, I worked on Wall Street and I day traded and I worked in real estate professions. And yes, I agree with the- that it largely comes. Even Joseph Cohen admitted that you're like, bubba. I learned how to be a landlord in bubba. You're like, my joke? I stand by it. I went to a special school that teaches me how to be a landlord. It's called Yeshiva. And he's saying, yes, the best training in the world you could get for being a landlord is, in fact, Yeshiva. And that doesn't mean that we want to rule over the Goiom. But yes, that we are a managerial class and then it's a benevolent and from our belief system that doesn't mean ruling over and telling people what to do. But yes, that we believe that we fill some sort of higher function and historically that it's been true. And even just like banking, okay, if your ancestors weren't involved in creating banking, good for you, doesn't mean you're a worst Jew than the ancestors of people who created banking. As I mentioned, I'm a Bamburger. Deutsche Bank was founded by Ludwin Bamburger. The Rothschilds, the Tachis India Company. These were largely founded off of Kabbalists and Jewish wisdom and it doesn't necessarily, God forbid, mean that, saying definitely, so you can't mistreat the Goiom and God punishes Jews who mistreat the Goiom. But yes, we should be proud of it. Banking is largely a Jewish invention. Okay, Judas, I want to jump in here. Judas, I've heard a change in Dover's rhetoric after his Joseph Cohen appearance. So I think Dover does recognize that not everything he said in his debates with people like Adam Green, would he take that approach again? So, Judas, do you also notice a change in the way Dover discusses these things? If that's the case, I would apologize for being so harsh. Okay, I didn't mean to be that harsh. I haven't really watched Dover that much. I work on my farm, I take care of my animals and my children and my students. I don't have time to, I don't watch very much at all. Okay, I appear on shows and I haven't seen the person I'm debating for months and months and months. So I don't know. If that's the case, again, I take back the harshness of my critique and the person repents. He doesn't owe me, you know, people who repent don't owe me an explanation as between them and God and if they repent, I honor them for that. All right? So that's what I would say. And what you said earlier about reward and punishment and my minorities I agree with, I don't have a problem with that. I just think, I don't accept the managerial class thing. And regarding banking, I'm nothing against banking. Banking is fine. I'm nothing against reserve banking either. It's not my point. I'm not, you know, I'm fine with all that. And, Duvid, there does seem to be a shift in an adjustment in the way that you speak about some of these things after your appearance on Joseph Cohen's show. Is that fair? No, I still basically hold the same thing. And I told Adam Green, I'm not really an authentic Jew. I'm only a half Jew. And I went to authentic schools. And that's why I refer Judas to him. I don't think, you know, honestly, I wasn't that impressed with Joseph Cohen. I think people like Joseph Cohen are responsible for turning people like Adam Green into anti-Semites. I mean, he's basically like an ADL type who stands up and makes videos calling people anti-Semites and indexing people and various things. And I think that's what turns people into anti-Semites. And I didn't expect any thanks for doing this. And so I didn't put myself out to do this. People asked me to do it. I could understand that, you know, people like Jews they're not going to believe me. They're going to think that I was self-promoting myself and begging to speak to Adam Green. And, you know, the record will stand. You know, so to say that, you know, if God will judge me, how God judges me, I did what I could do. I said I did it to defend the Jews. But yeah, I do see that, you know, like I saw Luke, my biggest detractors are my fellow Jews. And in a lot of, you know, to a certain extent, my biggest detractors are going to be Zionists. And I knew that. And so it's not surprising that, you know, Joseph Cohen, like I told you Joseph Cohen is going to try to call me an anti-Semite. And honestly, that's why I made my YouTube channel because I knew people like Judas probably didn't look into me. And, you know, there'd be some guy like Joseph Cohen who makes his money off of calling people an anti-Semite. So we just, I'll call duvet an anti-Semite too and people will give me money to call me an anti-Semite. And, you know, saying like, I'm not a traitor to the Jews. I did everything I could to defend the Jews. I will continue to do that against, you know, like Rebbe, Eva, I mean, like Rebbe, we say in the morning a blessing. I will defend the Jews against non-Jewish and Jewish enemies alike. And unfortunately, yeah, I think that people like Joseph Cohen for their own profit and gain turn people like Adam Green into anti-Semites. He's basically just like the ADL. And it's like Judas, like, no offense. You're pathetic. Adam Green helped you out. Adam Green did you a favor. And here you are trying to profit off calling him an anti-Semite. I mean, like they cry out as they strike you. And that was one of the things that Adam Green said. And I said, like, yeah, I could see that's a little bit of truth to that. But like Adam Green helped you out. He did you a favor. And here you are calling him an anti-Semite and then begging money. I don't understand. How is Judas profiting, David? I didn't understand that point. So how am I making money? He said he set up his tech forum. So he's such a big anti-Semite that he set up your YouTube page for you. He helped me with the YouTube page. I did say that. I get along with Adam personally. On a personal level, I get along with him. However, I tell him the same thing I said here, that the guy is an anti-Semite for sure. And I don't use the word lightly. He's someone who attributes much of the world's problems to Jews. He attributes intentions, negative intentions to Jews that we don't have. He attributes inspiracies that Jews have. The Jews don't have, he attributes to us. And in that sense, he's an anti-Semite on a personal level, man to man, we get along. If I talk to him on the phone, we're not being toxic to each other. I don't have a personal issue with him. And I tell whatever I said here, I say to his face. And that's what I have to say. Okay, Judas, Judas. Is there a Sephardic and Ashkenazi difference, say, in an attitude towards the managerial class? You're coming from a Sephardic background. No difference, go ahead, Judas. No difference at all. Every human wants to be the managerial class, obviously, right? Everybody wants to be an officer in the army telling soldiers to go out to fight as opposed to the guy running out, right? I mean, everybody wants to work. Everybody tries to rise up to managerial levels. And in the ancient world, it was a common thing for people to want other nations to serve them, to enslave other people. So we have that, it's expressed in our ancient texts, okay? And that's fine. And we pray it because we pray, we read these things. We connect our ancient texts. Sephardic and Ashkenazi, anybody reasonable, is not trying to enslave anyone else. Now, I don't think that Duvid wants to enslave anyone. I don't know, maybe he does. I don't know, I don't know. But seeing that to Adam Green, the way you said it, signals to him and to his followers that Jews are in fact, as a people, that we are everything they fear. I mean, my answer to your question, Luke, is that I don't think it's a Sephardic Ashkenazi thing. I just think it's a Luke, Judas thing. I mean, a Luke, Duvid-Judas argument. You know, Judas doesn't agree, doesn't think it's legitimate. Duvid thinks it is. Duvid, is there anyone who you'd call an anti-Semite? Well, honestly, no. I don't even accept the premise that, I mean, if you take from a Torah perspective that there's some natural tendency for non-Jews to dislike Jews as part of the chosen status or that hatred of God itself is manifested in hatred of the Jewish people, that people who hate God, you can't beat up God, God forbid. So you can try to beat up God's people in that sense that there is a natural tendency. But no, I think it's largely just group conflict and I think to some extent it's Zionism and I think it's people like Joseph Conan, the ADL, that profit from turning people into anti-Semites. So you can make some video trying to expose somebody and really they're doing it so that they could beg money and make money off of doing it and they're not really doing anything for the Jewish people besides for saying bad about other people. And Adam Green has a lot of Jewish friends, like he's got a ton of Jewish people on his shows and I think it was largely God forbid demonstration by people like Judas and Joseph Cohn that turned him into an anti-Semite. He's like, look, I helped this guy out. I set up his YouTube page and here he is bashing me publicly. This guy, Duvid, who set him up to be on the Adam Green show and here he is stabbing me in the back in front of everybody even though I'm the one who told him that he's the authentic Jew and set him up on the show and then here he is publicly stabbing me in the back. Let's, Judas, let's maybe switch more to intellectual discussion. Judas, anything else in say Jewish Nazi dialogues that struck you as a problem or bugged you anything else that you've heard, like that you think of, say, particularly dangerous ideas when presented by Jews in debates with counter-Semites? Okay, so the truth is that, by the way, excuse the noises. There's a military exercise going on not far from my farm. So there's a lot of helicopters in the air and you may see some soldiers come by for coffee later because they have an open invitation. So you may have a little bit of a show here in which case they're just gonna watch me do the show, make their own coffee. So I, for some reason, I was, I'm fascinated by anti-Semites, right? I've been listening to TRS, Richard Spencer, Adam Green. I've been watching these guys for years. It was an obsession of mine. I read Reddit's Semitic Literature and there hasn't been a lot of Jewish interaction with these people for understandable reasons. And I wanted to engage with them just out of interest. I, unlike what Duvid is implying, I'm making no money from any of this. It's not my business. It's not even my main focus. My main focus is promoting Haranbaum, right? I did it a few times. I'm probably not gonna do it again, not because it's distasteful, but because I'm busy with other things. What I found interesting is that, ultimately, and I think we've discussed this on your show, Luke, Kabbalists will tell you that every great falsehood has a kernel of truth. The great falsehood of anti-Semitism does have a kernel of truth, and the kernel of truth is what interests me. In other words, what, it's easy, like I've been raised as a, as a Jew, been raised as a big victim, they holocausts, they genocide us. They drove us out of their countries. There was an inquisition and so on, but we never was a very seldom, that I ever, Rabbi, tell me, there were things that we, collectively, as Jews have done that created the atmosphere where anti-Semitism was exacerbated. That was very rare for me to hear. I had a few rabbis that did tell me that, and that's what interested me. And the truth is that, after all said and done, I think that there are certain arguments, most of what Adam Green says is nonsense, but there are certain arguments that these people make that actually deserve to be treated fairly and deserve to be understood, heard, and we have to reconsider some of the collective actions we as Jews make. And I think I may have done a show with you about this in the past. Yeah. And, Duvid, is there anything that you've noticed in discussions between Jews and, say, those with negative views about Jews that has particularly stood out to you, or has annoyed you, or has inspired you? No, I mean, I'm a half Jew. I was a chess player as a kid. I'm familiar with anti-Semites. Like the ADL statistics, one out of 10 of Americans are basically an anti-Semite. Like I live in Detroit, a lot of African Americans. But Adam Green isn't. All of them are anti-Semites. Besides, five of them. Wait, wait, Judas. Judas, let Duvid speak, and then go ahead. Well, I was saying, it was what I told a dear wine tribe. If Adam Green's an anti-Semite, there's tens of millions of anti-Semites in America, because Adam Green is just asking the same questions that tens of millions of Americans want to ask and say that he became more extreme because of people like Joseph Kohn, because of people like the ADL. When I first heard about Adam Green, he was talking to Shlomo Green, and he was just making relatively the same type comments and questions. I get asked all the time by all types of people, by Koreans, by Indians, by blacks. I live in Detroit, so there's not that many white supremacists around. But I assume that if I was around whites, that I might get asked that questions also. But no, there was nothing that Adam Green asked me that wasn't commonly the type thing. But Christopher Van Jerkness was way more extreme. So when I first saw Adam Green, I debated Christopher Van Jerkness, and he was probably the most extreme vitriolic against the Jews of anyone I've ever spoken to. I think Adam Green made more extreme, largely by Jews, who accused him of being an anti-Semite, and tried to ruin his life. I did want to stand up, and I told that on Rudin Branch in Jerusalem to Les Glassman and Lowe Gallon that in my perspective, anti-Semites become anti-Semites because they think Jews are trying to ruin their life. And we have Brundle in the chat. I didn't know any of these people. Unlike Judas, I never followed this stuff. I never heard of TRS till I turned on to Luke Ford. I had heard of Richard Spencer because he was going to come to University of Michigan, and that's why I looked into Luke Ford. Kevin McDonald looked interesting to speak to on a theoretical level. I never followed neo-Nazis or any of this stuff or had any interest. I spoke to Eric Stryker. Honestly, I didn't want to do it. Brundle asked me to do it. I told him I don't want to do it, but I'll do what I need to do to defend the Jews. And I did it specifically because of people like Judas and Halsey. Thanks Halsey for the super chat because I felt that watching these debates, that people like Luke Ford, people like Halsey, people like Judas, basically threw the majority of American Jews under the bus. They're like, I'm an Orthodox Jew. I'm a Republican. And basically all your complaints against liberal and reform Jews are basically correct. And I'm the real Jew. So the reason I stood up to Eric Stryker and Adam Green was largely to defend the Jews in totality, including liberal and secular Jews. And the majority of the arguments I used was saying that, yes, I believe that all Jews are essentially good for society that repair the world. And we might have our quirks and our tendencies. And it was a cultural exchange, like Adam Green said. He didn't know any Jews growing up. He still probably doesn't really know any Jews. Only Jews he knows are people he engages with. And my father came from a small town, my grandfather, even though he fought in the U.S. Army against the Nazis, didn't know any Jews. And a lot of the ADL statistics, people who don't know any Jews are more likely to have more conspiratorial, further bad things to say about the Jews. And a cultural exchange, like that there is a little bit of truth to most of these tropes. And to say, like, Jews are going to Jew. Like, no, we're not trying to enslave you. We're not trying to take over the rule. But yes, the main things I argued is yes, Jews overwhelmingly support immigration in multiculturalism. That was the main argument that I defended. And I thought Judas and Halsey and Luke were basically what they're accusing me of. I thought that's what they were doing. They were feeding anti-Semites by saying like, no, I'm an Orthodox Jew. I'm a real Jew. And we don't support immigration and multiculturalism, even though 80% of Americans Jews do and you were willing to throw them under the bus. And so like, no, Jews aren't trying to ruin your life. And ruin your society. There's just something about being Jewish that makes us support multiculturalism and immigration. And I also want to say, yes, it is people like Joseph Cohn and the ADL that cause people to become anti-Semites. Because they put it out there. They make these videos. They try to ruin people's life. They try to dox people. And it further makes them more extreme because then they feel like Brundle had me speak to the name slipping me, Angelo Gage. And he's sleeping on a gun thinking it's Jews. And because there probably are Jews trying to ruin his life. And then when you have Jewish organizations that are trying to ruin someone's life and they can't, they don't know, maybe all Jews are in on it together and they're saying, well, Joseph Cohn's trying to ruin my life and I'm sleeping on a gun because I know these Jews are trying to ruin my life and therefore they turn against all Jews. So that was my kind of leg in that and what I was trying to do. Okay, great. So we've got Super Chat. Thank you so much from Halsey News Network 1999. Is this a debate to see if we're back in 2017? And then we've also got a Super Chat from Ricardo saying, Dover did nothing wrong. I can't say that emphatically enough. So I'm getting some background noise from Judas Maccabeus. So I'm just muting Judas and Judas, you can just unmute when the time comes. When you're ready to speak, Judas, you can just unmute yourself. Okay, Judas, you're back. Judas, how do you think Jews should deal when they're in a discussion or debate with people with negative views of Jews when let's say the anti-Semites may have a strong point? Do we admit when if they happen to have a good point or do we try to deride it and knock it down? For example, most Jews are on the left in the United States of America. So if you're a person who's politically on the right, you would have to be opposed to the political influence of most Jews in the United States because most Jewish political influence in the United States is in a left-wing direction. Judas, any thoughts? The problem is not, yeah, the problem is not that Jews are on the left, you know, other minorities that are on the left do. The problem is that Jews make, pretend that being on the left is a specifically Jewish position. So they call it tikkun olam. They make up a whole theology of progressivism, which they argue is Judaism. That is offensive to me on several levels. It's offensive to me as a Jew who follows actual Judaism and knows that tikkun olam has nothing to do with trends, rights, or drag queen story hour, whatever they want to say it is. And it offends me as a nationalist who's a nationalist for my people. And I can't watch people of my so-called co-religionists, even though they're practicing a completely perverted version of Judaism, if you can even call it that. And then, you know, going in my name, attacking other people's right to self-determination. Now, that is offensive to me, and I feel that lying about that is not good. I think we need to be honest and we need to reject it. And more Jews need to come out and reject this kind of heresy. The Torah says, do not despise the Egyptian. For you were a guest, you were an immigrant in his land. Now, we were slaves in Egypt. They killed our babies. Yet, we have to respect the fact that we were immigrants in their country, right? So, if you look at a country like America, I'm not an American anymore, but I'm an American citizen. White Americans are good to us. They led us into their countries. They gave us the opportunity to outdo every other minority in that country. And we turned around and tried to replace them through immigration. Is there anything more vile and offensive to the Torah than that? And I think that not rejecting it publicly is Chilur Shem Shemayim. Now, will some people be more anti-Semitic for it? Maybe, but it's a violation against the Torah. It's a violation against our ancient rules of how we're supposed to conduct ourselves at the exile. We're not supposed to try to control the Goyim. We're not supposed to manage them. And we're not supposed to try to replace them ethnically. Doing that is a huge sin. And it's a sin against our friends who were good to us because they let us become white when we're not. And it's a sin against God who says, you know, not only should you treat the stranger, the immigrant in your country well, but as an immigrant, you also have responsibilities to the whole station. And I think that reformed Jews for the most part are not fulfilling that Jewish principle. And therefore, they need to be castigated for it. And it needs to be public. And even when I speak to anti-Semites, I will say this as a Jew because it doesn't mean that I think Jews need to be Republican. They don't. Jews are allowed to be Democrats. A Democrat position is a legitimate one. But Jews should not make either Republicanism or progressivism into a Jewish issue. As a private citizen, you can have any position you want. You can be for immigration against it. That's my view. And, David, was there anything you heard there that you'd like to respond to? Yeah. I mean, that's basically God forbid, Judas hates reform in secular American Jews so much that out of his own volition, he sought out speaking to neo-Nazis and anti-Semites in order to agree with them that the majority of American Jews are bad. And so we have disagreements about immigration or whether white America. Luke is not an American. Luke is an Australian. He may be a blue-eyed man. Luke did not do anything for America. He is an immigrant just as much as a Black or even more than a Black as a Mexican or anybody else. Like my Jewish grandfather was a war hero. He was honored by the U.S. for serving in World War II. And I know my history. God forbid, yes, things could turn against the Jews and even war heroes in Germany were slaughtered and murdered. But no, that's why I said Luke, an anti-immigration activist, that's what Luke was the one who got kicked off of YouTube and is saying that I'm a pro-immigration activist. And I think that's what's best for America. I publicly argued that Halsey's here in the chat and he's giving Luke money to agree with him and that's fine, but that was my main point. Just because Jews are pro-immigration and pro-multiculturalism, we're not traders to America. We're not trying to wage war against the white person. Maybe they are. And I did. I wanted to expose people like Judas that he actively would seek out to speak to anti-Semites in order to raise anti-Semitism against your average American Jew. And it's kind of, God forbid, part of what I see in the flaw of Zionism. And let me just catch up on the superchats. We've got Ricardo says, Duvod is right, the Jewish doxers came after me for talking to Adam Green with Duvod and Halsey News Networks says, Duvod is right, we shouldn't throw liberal Jews under the bus. Judas, any thoughts? And I'll just pose one particular question to you. What should be a Jew's attitude towards other Jews with whom he vehemently disagrees on matters like cultural, political, religious? Well, I believe in Jewish solidarity. I think we Jews should always defend each other and always have each other's back regardless of political petitions. That's what I think. That being said, when some of us go off and there's a line that you can't cross and when you cross certain lines we're supposed to kind of row people in and bring them back into the fold. That's what I think. And even though I use harsh words, my loyalty is with my nation, with my people, my solidarity is with my people, even though I think that reformed Jews collectively are doing things that may result in another catastrophe for the Jews in America. I would still defend them physically when the time comes because they're still my brothers. But I'm angry at them right now for not seeing the future, for not seeing how their behavior is a pattern that they're doing the same destructive things they did in Europe. There's a reason why my ancestors in the Middle East got along better with their neighbors. And the reason is not that the Goyim in Europe are worse. Arabs are arguably worse than Christians or the same in some ways. It has to do with how you perceive yourselves. Do you understand that we Jews are a separate nation? I'm sorry, go on. Judah, so let's say that it became clear to you that Duvid was 100% Jewish, that he had a Jewish mother. What obligations would you have towards Duvid that you would not automatically have towards Anandji? So let's, there's a few things. Like if assuming, I'm going to assume he's Jewish. I'm, I don't know. Yeah, I have no reason to play. Does that mean that Roche Sheeva's here in Meir? You're going to do your own vetting. You don't trust the Meir Sheeva or any of these other Sheevas. They did their vetting. They may, you've got to do your own vetting. Do you think Reb Nussan's speech on the Meir Sheeva can't do their own vetting and that they, maybe like I was able to fool them and fraud my way into the Roche Sheeva's sheer? Duvid, I've been to Nussan's Refinkel, I've been to Nussan's Refinkel's class and there was 300 people there and he was very old. Give me a break with his vetting thing. Okay, I judge you by my interactions with you. The Israeli government paid for Meir Sheeva, like you were talking about. I was subsidized by the Israeli government. You don't think the Israeli government did their vetting? The government, you claim to serve? I'm being interrupted. I'm being interrupted. I need, I need, I need more moderation here. Mike, if you're saying fighting words, you're saying that I'm not a Jew. Honestly, if you were face to face, I would say let's take this outside. You're claiming I'm not a Jew. That would be very unfortunate. I'm a Jew. I dedicated my whole life to Judaism. At you, if you were face to face, you would not say that to me. Okay. Like, listen, I don't judge you by what you say. I judge you by my interactions with you. All right? I've interacted with many Jews and non-Jews and I'm not a very paranoid person. But you come off as someone who knows everything you quote about Torah is like something you saw on Wikipedia. Even your Hebrew pronunciations when you make the mistake of pronouncing Hebrew sounds like a goi reading a transliteration. I don't mean to be, I'm not trying to be mean to you. But you don't come off genuinely as a Jew. Did you manage to sneak into Yeshiva somewhere in Jerusalem? Maybe. Mir Yeshiva is notoriously promiscuous in who they let in. They have no real far hair. They don't have a real test. Anyone can go to Mir Yeshiva. That's, in the Yeshiva world, it was the place you went to. I memorized 10 pages of the Talmud. I took a test. They made me memorize 10 pages of the Talmud. Can you, okay, you know what? I'm going to eat my words right now. If you can quote five lines of Talmud right now in Aramaic properly. Any five lines from the 10 pages that you memorized right now without looking it up. I'm going to, just right now. Stein Moix and Betalis. I mean, you're right. Like, I'm... The Omar Zecheli. The Omar Zecheli. No, not that. Zecheli Zecheli. Go on. You know, Luke, Arba Alvos Nazikim. My Hebrew is not that good. I'm a half Jew. I struggled. They let me take the test. You're doing good. Do it. Oh, you did it in English. Okay, listen. Do it. They let me take the test in English. Okay, your pronunciation was... Do it. I'm not... I'm taking it back. Ashrei Yoshri Viseko. Oya Lukaselo. Do it. I don't want to mock you. I'm going to stop. Right? Forget it. Forget everything I said. I can't pronounce everything. You're right. It's genetic. I'm a half Jew. Like, it's very difficult, even though for 25 years I've been saying the Hebrew prayers every single day, I still sound like an idiot trying to pronounce it. I agree. Okay, what was the subject we were talking about? What was the subject? You weren't accusing me of not being a Jewish, and I said that to me that... No, there was a point. That's fighting words because I dedicated basically my whole adult life to Judaism. And to me, that's a joke. You calling yourself Jewish who's begging to speak to these anti-Semites is going to accuse me of not being Jewish. And I said, yes, like, I don't know. Maybe you're a monster. But like, you know, I would take that outside with you too. Like, that's a disgrace against... That's a question of my honor. And so, like, no, I was a smart guy. I could have done a lot of things with my life and I chose to dedicate it to Judaism. And here's this guy saying, oh, I'm not a Jew. It's like, okay, like my mother's lineage, my mother is really questioning that. But to say like, no, I took the test. I went to these Yeshivas. I drove around these rabbis. I did what they told me and, you know, here's this guy willing to besmirch the same schools. We went to the same school, Bob of Yeshiva, the Bob of Erebi, a blessed memory, but Shlomo, who saw his own father, Benjamin Halberstam, killed in front of him. Rashlami Halberstam saw his own father murdered right in front of him. We studied under the same man. How was the relevant to anything? Duvid, Duvid, let me ask you a question. You're calling out my honor. Do any of the rabbis, you know it? You're calling out my honor saying I'm not a Jew. You are... I'm not calling your honor. It's honorable to be non-Jewish as well. My question, have a question. No, because I dedicated my life to Judaism. You call out my honor. Like, I mean, it was just that. What you dedicated your life to, my friend, is not Judaism. Okay. What you dedicated your life to was this thing is in your own head. It's this polytheist spiritualism. Where I was in the Nassim Svi-Thinkos class. You're yourself. There was less than 20 people in it. Like, I was, it was in his house. There was less than 20 people in... In his house. Okay, okay. You are besmirching your own rabbi. You're besmirching the blessed memory of the Rosh Hashanah. David, I don't believe you're Jewish. I'm sorry. Everything you say, I'm sorry. Everything you say, right, makes me suspect you more. Let's just stop, all right? I'm going to pretend, I'm just going to let it go. Let's pretend you're Jewish. Okay, okay. I'm not going to have a fight. You're not going to come to my farm. All right? Let's go on, all right? Okay, let's go on. You besmirched the blessed memory of the Rosh Hashimah, you're not me. Okay, wait, wait, wait. Let's go on. You're going to have to moderate this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so I'm jumping in again. You're going to have to moderate it. Yes, okay. So Judas, let's say that you became 100% convinced that David is Jewish. What would be your obligations to him that you would not have to a non-Jew? Even if you disliked him or disagreed with him, once you realized that he was Jewish, what would be your obligations to him that you would not have to a non-Jew? The same obligations Halacha has, okay, which is to feed him if he's hungry, give him to Dakar first, defend him if he's being attacked. Hold on, hold on a second. Okay, well, let me just reverse it. Duvid, let's say that even if you disagree or dislike Judas, what moral obligations or what obligations would you have to him that you would not have equally to a non-Jew? Duvid? You have obligations to all of humanity, including non-Jews. If there was a Goi who was hungry, I would feed him also. But there might be levels, like yes, the Halacha is clear that even Judas disrespecting me right in front of my face, even though I helped him out. Yeah, if he came begging to me, I would probably still give him money. If he asked me to hook him up, I would probably still hook him up, even though he's here publicly stabbing me in my back. Because that's the Halacha, like if there was someone, for non-Jew also, if someone was beating up a non-Jew, I would also protect a non-Jew. I would protect a Palestinian, but I might go a little bit further to put myself in risk to save a fellow Jew, even someone who publicly insults me and stabs me in the back like this man. Okay, and Judas, once you become convinced that Duvid is Jewish, as a Jewish mother, then what are your moral obligations to him that you would not equally have towards a non-Jew? I just did that. I'm sorry. Yeah, I can hear you. So I didn't get your answer. So what are your obligations to Duvid that you don't equally have to a non-Jew? What are you saying? He wouldn't feed, Duvid say I would feed the non-Jew. He's saying he wouldn't feed the non-Jew, but he would feed me. Duvid would give an answer for me as well. In Detroit, if an African American Goy asked me for a dollar, I would also give him a dollar. Okay, okay. So I don't know if he's saying... Yeah, hang on, hang on, it's Judas' turn. So Judas, what are your obligations towards a Jew that you may not even like compared to a non-Jew? So I've already answered. I don't remember all the details, but there's a lot for that, and they pretty much regular national solidarity. If you're a member of my nation, my loyalty is to you, even if you're a traitor, and even if you're a liar, and even if you do damage to my people, I still owe you solidarity. That means they need to defend you over others, okay? That means that I need to support you. If I can support one person or the other, I can only afford to support one. I would support you over someone else. If I can save, if two people are drowning, and there's one Goy that I really like, and just Duvid, I'm not going to say that I would do it, but it'd probably be my obligation to be to save Duvid, all right? That govern our relationships with fellow Jews would apply. Okay, and Judas, would you violate the Sabbath to save the life of a non-Jew? I would. And how about you, Duvid? Would you like pick up the phone and violate the Jewish laws of the Sabbath to save the life of a non-Jew? Yeah, I'm thinking it's pretty clear. I mean, that's obvious. I mean, if you're talking, I mean, Judas is official rabbi, but yeah, I mean, you could violate the Sabbath to save the life even of a non-Jew, even probably severe injury. You could certainly violate the Sabbath. It doesn't matter if they're non-Jew. And in some cases, you could violate the Sabbath to save your sheep. I don't know the halakha, but like Judas has sheep, I think the halakha in certain cases, you could even violate the Sabbath to save a sheep. Okay. And rabbi Judas, what does the Jews being a light unto the nations? How do you understand that, say practically in the way that Jews should live? I think that we need to create a society of our own, only on our own, right? That is exemplary. So like if we had an exemplary nation, that automatically would also be a light unto the nations because the nations would see that and say, for example, in America, when people want to promote socialized medicine, they say, look at Denmark. So in a way, Denmark is kind of a light unto the nations, right? So Denmark isn't out there sending ambassadors to America saying, guys, you got to do, you got to do socialized medicine because it's we doing it, and it's good because we believe in it. So like a light unto the nations is not us preaching to the Goyim. That's not what it is. Light unto the nations is us doing the right thing. I'm doing the right thing by the Torah because if you do the right thing by the Torah, everyone's going to notice it. And that itself is inherently a light to the whole world. And, Duvid, how do you understand the text that Jews should operate as a light unto the nations? Yeah, but those are the original arguments I use. Like you're saying 12% of dentists in America are Jews. Doctors used to be 15%. And you're like doing, being an honorable businessman, you're not trying to enslave the Goyim, but just being an honorable management. You could be that role. And also, you're being a good influence. I'm not to repair the role in terms of you're like telling people what to do. When I say management class, I'm not really a tell a people what to do in the like competence should be obvious. Like when you see your dentist and the dentist is your dentist, it's not you because they have expertise and you're not going to claim to be able to do that, that you know, Jews should be comfortable with our expertise that I'm comfortable. Like I said, that make yourself useful that, you know, I'm an engineer. I went to top schools. I know a bunch of useful things that you buy being righteous in my dealings in the actions. And but also, you know, speaking and talking about God, like we talked about inner faith and acknowledging like, yes, I am a Jew and talking to people about God and spirituality. I would say debating against atheism. And, you know, to some extent, possibly you would even stretch that to promoting immigration and multiculturalism. We even talked about like, that you Jews and even secular Jews, you know, like we're merciful, nice people and Jews are nice to people that no one else is nice to. So it's saying like, people don't like immigrants. People don't like gays. People don't like a whole list of people. And here's this Jew being nice to them because it's a nature of Jews to be merciful and nice to people. And that touches on something that I think is important to say, the traditional Jewish attitude towards homosexuality, which has been to oppose the practice of homosexuality, but at the same time, not to be nasty or mean to people who may practice those sins, just like we're not generally taught to be nasty and mean towards heterosexuals who practice sexual sins. Judas, any thoughts on the dichotomy in the Jewish tradition between on the one hand opposing homosexual sex, but on the other hand, not degrading and denigrating people who may do that any more than we would do that towards heterosexuals who engage in sinful sex? I don't know. I don't understand this whole argument. Maybe I'm too Middle Eastern for this. Like throughout history, people have been, let's say, sexually creative. Okay. And homosexuality is not new. It's forbidden by us. It's a taboo, just like all these other things that are forbidden, like adultery and incest and whatnot. And I don't even understand why people have sexual identity. I don't get it. Even today, top psychologists are saying that all humans are on a scale. So the most heterosexual guy in a prison or on a desert island with only men after a certain amount of years he's going to break. So the guy, like we're all on a scale to some degree. I don't see why there needs to be sexual identity at all. We're all humans. We have a relationship with God. We have a relationship with fellow man. And I think that we don't need to be mean to homosexual. But if someone is going to come to me and identify as someone who likes, identify sexually, I would see it as weird. People who identify as adulterers or people who identify as orgy prefer people like orgies. You have people that only do orgies. They don't have one-on-one sex. Right? It's none of my business. If he's my friend in Sholl, he doesn't have, if we're close enough, he'll tell me and I'll think it's weird. But if he identifies as an orgyast, okay, I would consider it weird and I wouldn't want to be around him. I don't want to be around people whose main identity is anything sexual. Okay? Even if it's a guy who keeps talking about having sex with his wife, I don't want to hear that. We know that. You have a wife, I'm assuming. You have sex. I don't get why the Western world is obsessed with these identities. And as I predicted in the 90s when I was a kid, it's going to start with homosexuals. It's going to be bi and trans. And it's going to end up with pedophiles and bestiality and endless sexual identities that we can't even fathom. And it's an invitation to mental illness. As far as I'm concerned, we're all humans and we're all partially genes we're a product of our genes and our environment. And I don't judge you or anyone else for their sexual choices. But if you're going to come to me identifying sexually, I'm going to mercilessly mock you at worst or I'm going to stay away from you politely at best. Right? And I don't see why I need to change that. That's my position. Okay, that makes sense. Okay, we're going to move towards wrapping up. Judas, any final words? Maybe you mentioned your YouTube channel, anything that you want to mention, Judas? First, maybe I should apologize to Duvet. Duvet, I've been a little harsh on you, right? I don't dislike you personally. I'm upset at you for the things I've said. I'm not going to repeat them. It's the same, Shem. I appreciate the fact that you set up my debate with Adam Green. It was very rewarding and interesting to me. And that I appreciate. I appreciate the fact that you're sincere and that your intentions are good. Okay? That being said, we have disagreements and I may have been a little bit a bit too obtuse towards you. Right? And for that, I hope you'll forgive me. All right? I don't want to come into Russia now knowing that I offended a fellow Jew in public and so on. So, if we could get past that, it would be nice. Doesn't mean I agree. I take back my arguments against what you said and what you did and so on, but we can have that argument politely. I didn't have to get to the tones that it did. All right? Maybe it got a little heated at a long day. One of my dogs is dying from a disease. One of my guard dogs, and I'm a little bit sad about that. I don't know. I didn't mean to be toxic towards you. So, there's that. To wrap it up, if you want to follow my work, if you find my Monodian stuff interesting, my channel is called Guerrilla Judaism. I try to do weekly sessions on the Parasha from a Monodian perspective as well as various current events. Okay? That's it. And if anybody wants to help support my farm, settling in the West Bank, this is not my Torah thing, not my political thing, just settling ancient Jewish land and want to donate sheep to my farm, there's information on my YouTube channel and how to do that as well. So, thank you for having me on loop. And thanks, David. Thank you. Thank you so much, Judas. Duvid, any thoughts on Judaism's kind of dual reactions to homosexuals and homosexuality? On the one hand, there are prohibitions against homosexual behavior. On the other hand, there's a recognition of the full humanity of homosexuals. Yeah, that's what my point I was making about immigration, multiculturalism, that Jews are, the Talmud says, merciful, kind and humble. I forget the three expressions, that Jews by nature are nice to people that no one else is nice to. And that could be the immigrant, that could be the black man, that could be the person from a different race, and it could be the homosexual. But no, I'm generally abstinence in the, generally, I'm opposed to homosexuality, like Judas, I'm opposed to on-sanction sexuality in any form. I think properly, sex should only be within marriage and generally pretty conservative like that. So I don't necessarily look at homosexuals worse than any form of promiscuity, generally, but yeah, I think there's a general attitude. I would attribute it to Judaism as just being merciful people and recognizing the harsh conditions of the material world. And I accept Judas' apology and say, like, no, I didn't expect that some Jew is gonna see me talking to Adam Green and gonna think, oh man, this guy's a hero to Jews, this guy's really putting himself out there to help the Jewish people. I had enough training that, no, I mean, I expected people like, I expected guys like Joseph Kohn to accuse me of being an anti-Semite. I expected guys like Judas to look at me and think that I'm a disgrace to the Jewish people. I told that to Luke Ford, because I believe in the essential Jews as a priest to nation, Judas said he was combined at some point in his youth. And I think that is kind of how it works, that all Jews serve this kind of priestly role, but there is kind of a hierarchy to it. So, you know, like I put the feelings on hundreds of people. Those were pretty disconnected people that, you know, I mean, some of them were wealthy, but were pretty disconnected from their Judaism. And as they came closer to their Judaism, they got in touch with bigger rabbis, more authentic people. I never claimed to be able to do conversions. You know, generally, I don't discourage people from seeing liberal rabbis, but generally, you know, I tell people the schools I studied under, and you know, if anyone who follows duvid, if they follow me seriously, I would expect them to eventually come on to, so to say, more authentic Jews. And it doesn't bother me. And I had enough experience to say that most rabbis, the first thing they tell you when they say like, oh, like I know, Jew duvid is going to be everything he told you was wrong. And so that doesn't surprise me. And, you know, I didn't really speak that much to anti-Semites. I had probably less than 10 shows I did. And it just happens that they got a lot of views. And I didn't put myself out to do it. I was, you know, it was really brungle that set that up in, you know, that even Adam Green, I was only on Adam Green show like twice. And, you know, they got tens of thousands of views, but like, no, I don't talk to these people all the time. It just happens I did it a handful of times. And it went viral. And I told Adam Green that, you know, I'm just a guy. I'm just a half Jew trying to stand up for the Jews. And I referred him to Judas. And I referred him to Chabad. And it said like, you know, even when I was on the show, I said, you know, like maybe some Chabad rabbi will come up and speak for themselves. And when I was on the Joseph Cohen, I mentioned Bubbo. I said, maybe someone with Bubbo will stand up and speak for themselves. I don't claim to speak for anybody. So that, you know, I have my own scholarship. I do believe in the half Jew thing. You know, like, if you wanted a formal debate on that, you know, like I thoroughly learned the good morning of almost with Mephoshim. And no, I probably couldn't pronounce any of the words right. But I do think I would beat Judas in a formal debate, only using Jewish sources of the Talmud and commentators on the half Jew. And that I do believe that I was recruited by the rabbis to some extent to deal with the goyim. And I know that's what I did. Like I was recruited by these rabbis in Israel. And then I was brought into Brooklyn. And a lot of basically what I did was deal with the goyim on behalf of the rabbis. So, you know, I could see people like Judas being upset at that and saying, why is this guy talking to the goyim for us? And so that's understandable. And I don't claim to, in any extent, I do claim that I tried my best to be a Jew, to listen to the rabbis, to defend the Jewish people. I never found any of that stuff funny. I never fought TRS or Richard Spencer or any of those guys was funny. But no, I accept Judas' apology. And I don't want there to be great wars and anti-Semitism to arise. And I don't want there to be like me and Judas to be fighting against anti-Semites because a great war is going to rise. And one of us has to defend the next or look for anybody else because generally, I'm a believer and I do believe in a God that controls the hearts and minds of people. I will say Shema Yisrael tonight. I will forgive. You know, I don't always say the Reboino Shalom prayer. But I try to be a bane and ye from the Talmud. And I try to forgive everybody that's wronging me when I go to sleep each night and believe that God controls the hearts and minds of all people and leave it with God. Okay, great. And we've got a super chat from Rickardus. It says, hail, duvid. I've got your back forever. Duvid, you do a weekly show, don't you? Weekend review. And then you do another weekly show with that Jewish guy who writes a lot of books. So what do you, in your final words, tell us about other things you've been working on? Yeah, honestly, I never wanted to get into talking to counter-Semites. I always tried to avoid it. You know, when I was 10s of years of Judaism, there were always Jews telling me about what these Nazis and other people were saying in chat rooms. And honestly, I never looked in them. I never tried to speak to any of these people. It was only, when I started speaking to Luke Ford, it was only when Richard Spencer was coming to University of Michigan that it was such a big deal. And I saw that, I thought there was impending disaster. And I spoke to Luke Ford. And I saw that the other people, like Halsey, and I thought I could do a better job of doing it. And so I did it. And I was actually happy to hand the mantle over to Judas to do that if it's what he wants to do. And I told them that. So the Consciousness Conference, two Jews, Stuart Hammeroff, anesthesiologist, and Roger Penrose, Nobel Prize-winning physicist, both with Eastern atheistic leanings, are doing the Science of Consciousness Conference in Arizona this week. I hope to be on the call each day. I think it's 12 to 330 each day. And hopefully me and Jennifer are going to do a post-show each day on consciousness. And honestly, that's what I like talking about, like how the mind works, how people go about forming thoughts in public psychoanalysis. And even if anti-Semites, kind of like my approach was kind of like public psychoanalysis, what's going through the person's mind that causes them to put patterns together in certain ways. And I think anti-Semites, so to say, they're just piecing together information in a certain way. And to some extent, it makes sense. Judas having a negative view towards me, I don't blame him for being extremely skeptical. If all we saw was me on Adam Green, I didn't think that he was going to think I'm pathetic. But what's the name of that Jewish guy you do a weekly show with? Oh, Charles Moskowitz. Oh, yeah. What's going on with that? Every Thursday, I've been partners in Torah. And we talk about politics. And Charles Moskowitz is more political. He's a good author. So I like he's writing books. And so we keep relatively regularly talking about current events from a Jewish angle. Kind of we're both right-wing leaning. Well, I have more tendency to defend left-wing Jews, even though personally, I have right leanings. And then the Sunday, we can review. So actually, I was happy to hand the mantle of dealing with anti-Semites off to people like Judas and move into things like consciousness. And Judas, where are you with your book of the Rambam? Tell us a little bit about your book. You may need to unmute. And how far along are you in this project? So I've sent you a copy of the transcript. I need to add footnotes. And I need to edit the whole thing. I'm a few months away from publishing it, but the truth is that I've been so busy on the farm that I haven't had time to really do it. I'm also working on a Hebrew version that has more rabbinic sources, a little more scholarly. It's a really important book because you could have, like as obviously I think, because no one has ever done this kind of work on the principles and interpreted it publicly the way I have. So hopefully soon I'll find the time to do it, you know? And when you say you're working on your farm, what does that mean? I didn't hear. What was that? When you say you're working on your farm, what does that mean? What does that entail? Well, I raise sheep. I have a sheep farm and it's in the West Bank. So I raise sheep and you have to inseminate them and you have to shear them and you have to vaccinate them and you need to buy and sell. And it's a job, it's a business, you know? You can see that viral video got millions of hits this week of like the sheep herding in Israel with the drone. You can see that video? No, I haven't. It was a viral video. I haven't. It came to millions of hits. The reception is so bad here, David. I didn't even know if I'll be able to have this debate. I was worried that I don't have enough internet, but send me a link. I'll look at it. I heard them with dogs, right? But it's a family business. They do with my children and it's in an area where it's strategically very important. It belongs to Israel. But if we don't herd sheep there, Palestinians would. And then they would argue that it was always theirs and they were there for thousands of years. So it's kind of, there's no conflict. I don't ever have shootouts with anyone, but that my presence in this farm has long-term effects. And how do you inseminate the sheep? So there's a natural way. You have a male stud ram that does the work, but then you bring a vet or you do it yourself with a syringe to make sure that they're pregnant because you want to make sure you have a lot of lambs for the holiday. And how come you vaccinate your sheep but you won't vaccinate yourself? I'm not anti-vax. I would vaccinate myself. I have other vaccines, but the COVID vaccine haven't gotten through yet. And it's different. Like statistically speaking, if everybody got vaccinated, right, that may be better. But for me personally, in my condition, I chose not to vaccinate yet. But with the sheep, it's different. I need my sheep to be healthy. With the sheep, it's a numbers game. I need to have as many healthy moms as possible for me to make a living. So I read last week, Judas, that American Jews are more pro-vaccine than any other religious group in the United States. Like 85% of American Jews, according to this one survey, were pro-the COVID vaccine. Does that surprise you? No, it doesn't. And what does it indicate to you? I mean, that Jews tend to listen to doctors? It makes sense to support the vaccine, right? It's medicine. It does make sense. It makes logical sense. Jews want to be pro-science. And vaccine is perceived as a scientific choice. And it may be the scientific choice. I'm not a virologist. I don't mean to make any commentary that's pro or anti-vaccine. I just think for me, I'm not convinced why you would better my life, make me safer or anyone else safer that I take it. Sorry, did you have more you wanted to say there, Judas? No. Okay, and, Duvid, how do you understand the very high rates of support for COVID vaccination among American Jews? Even Israeli Jews, even Karate Orthodox Jews will probably get vaccinated higher percentages maybe than even African-Americans or red state whites. And I think it's related to the management class. Jews are generally high authority people. We generally have an elite strategy that we worry more about what the elites are thinking. And just like politics, as I said, from reconstructionists to Hasidic, voting is in the high 90%. All of those people call and talk to the local congresspeople as opposed to your average American that wouldn't even want to meet their congressperson if they could. And so the vaccine is part of that general acceptance and trust and authority and elites that I would put kind of related to what I call the managerial class. And Judas, any reactions to that? I mean, surely a higher IQ, more educated group is going to, one, be more elite and two, be more likely to be in management. But into trust, into trust authority also. So not only to be in authority, but non-Jews have a larger tendency to distrust authority as where FNJews have a more tendency to trust authority. Judas? That's pretty interesting. That's an interesting take. On the one hand, Jews trust authority, but on the other hand, Jews are the biggest rebels against authority. We come up with new ideas. We were the ones who, like you yourself said, right? We're this revolutionary type of people, rebell against accepted views as well. So I think that when it comes to the vaccine specifically, I don't know if it's as elite as much as Jews want to see themselves as more rational and scientific. And less, they see conspiracy theories as something very, like, low class. So this vaccine is a perfect storm because it is a vaccine. It's put out by large drug companies. And it's a litmus test for conspiracy theorists. This is a perfect place for them to say, oh, how was it in so early? I'm suspicious. Maybe it's a conspiracy theory. And for people who want to be perceived as science friendly, and rational, it's a chance for them to say, oh, no, you got to take the vaccine. Obviously, we all know the vaccine is great. So Jews want to be rational. I think that's what it is. I don't know if it's connected to the managerial class. There's studies like Chinese and stuff. Not just rationality, because I think all people claim to be rational, but specifically in trust in authority, trust in elites. And if you put the culturally Jews unquestionably, have higher trust in authority in elites than most other nations and groups. And one comment, Terry, that I found interesting is one observer, I think he was primarily talking about non-orthodox Jews. He said, Jews are the last people to still believe in the Enlightenment. So the Enlightenment thought that we could rationally understand the world and that people, human beings, were basically good. So any reactions to that thought, Judas? Jews are the last people to believe in the Enlightenment. I think that, no, I think Jews also have given up in rationality. Like if you look at how quickly Jews have latched on to progressive politics, whether it's trends, issues, whether it's open borders, whether it's abolish the police, none of these things are rational. They're all post-rational, post-modern ideological stances. And I think that we're living on a post-Enlightenment time. And this is, I don't have a word for it. It's a different epoch, a different age. They're going to name it in the future when we reach the next age. We're going through a different phase right now. And, Duvid, do you have any thoughts on that observation? I don't remember who said it, but essentially the allegation was Jews are the last group to still believe in the Enlightenment with its belief in rationalism and human goodness. Duvid? I'm not sure about, I mean, it's a statement. It could evoke thought, but in terms of Jews as a pattern, being high authority, high trust in elites, that seems that much more grounding than trusting human goodness. And just making the point that Republican Jews versus Republican Goiom, like Rush Limbaugh, I was young, used to play in his opening, I love my country, but fear my government, which is not a very, even Republican Jews. You might have some libertarian right-leaning Jews, but even Republican Jews generally would push back on that attitude. And it might be related to white people, Europeans, and individualism, like Kevin McDonald, where Europeans have a natural distrust towards centralized authority or the government. So saying, as a Jew in Israeli to say, like, I love Israel, but I distrust the Israeli government. They're like, no, that's not such a common attitude. And even Jewish Republicans aren't likely to have the concept, which I would guess the majority of non-Jewish Republicans probably have that sentiment. Like, I love America, but I distrust my government. And that would be one point where Jewish Republicans probably don't feel that way. And Judas, I'm thinking that Jews in the West are generally doing fairly well. And if you're feeling fairly good about your life, you're more likely to respect the status quo. And also, if you're high IQ and highly educated, you're either more likely to be elite or to know elites and to have more favorable views of the elites. Any of that strike you or something you want to comment on, Judas? Hold on a minute. Yeah, I'll come back to you. I'll come back to you. Yeah, I'll come back to you. Yeah, hold on. Someone's visiting my farm. I got to start. Yeah, I understand that point. They're saying, if you want to be elite, like if you accept my premise, we're small people and we have big ambitions, so managerial or elite, that if you want to be part of the elite, you study the elite and you respect the elite. So if you're an anti-elitist, you might not, you're saying, I don't want anything to do with those people. I'm not going to study their ways. But if you desire to be part of the elite, then you're more likely to respect them and try to learn from them. And that's why I mentioned the Jewish Republicans who usually don't have that sentiment. I love my country, but distrust my government. Yeah, and also Jews have long depended upon a strong centralized power to protect them because Jews, generally speaking, have not been terribly popular among the non-Jews, so they often relied upon kings or upon some centralized power or strong government to protect them from populist movements. Any thoughts on that, Duvod? If Judas is back, he could reply. But yeah, I'm generally making that point because Rush Limbaugh used to open up his show with, I love my country, but fear my government. And it's saying that Republican Jews usually don't feel that way. Okay, Judas, anything you've heard that you want to comment on? I was an Republican Jew when I was in America. I did trust my government, but it's true that Jews want to be part of the elite. And it's true that Jews want to exercise power on that state. The problem is that we forget and we think that we're really Americans. We think we're part of the government and we're part of this nation, and we can start. That's when the problem starts. I think that far-rightism and far-rightism was recognized that we're an Asian exile. We're not really members of our whole nation. We're loyal. We're friendly, but we ourselves, we live our interaction from a similar team, and we want to hate them. It's somewhere in the world. There's not a big difference. Okay, thanks, Judas. Your internet's kind of going out. So I'm going to wrap up.