 Hi, everyone. Welcome back to our podcast from the Kamasutra to 2020, where we look at your questions, your concerns, even your worries around all things to do with sex and sexuality. Today, we don't have with us Dr. Andhra Dhammadhan Bihel, but in her place, we have the beautiful, the one and only Lisa Mangaldas. Lisa is one of my favorite people, one of the amazing ladies on social media. She's on Instagram. She is a sex positive content creator and has become a really important voice in trying to normalize and raise awareness around women's pleasure. And Lisa, it is an absolute delight to welcome you here. Thank you so much. That was such a kind introduction and it is entirely my honor Seema to be here. Thank you. Lisa. So this is obviously for everybody out there. This is, you can see it's a mutual admiration society. We both love each other. But Lisa, I'm over here today to talk to you about something very specific, hundreds and hundreds of emails from women talking about how to explore self pleasure. So we talk about self pleasure. That's something that they would like to understand for themselves that like to explore, but they don't really know where to start. And a lot of these people, a lot of these young ladies, a lot of these women have nowhere to go to to ask these questions. So I was thinking, maybe between us, we can actually try and make it a little bit easier for them. So let's talk about orgasms. I love that. You know, I was also very much that young woman who had no idea how to navigate pleasure on my own. I mean, I was really late to the self pleasure game. I think that I probably had my first sexual experiences around 18 and I only masturbated for the first time at like 27 or 28, you know, so somehow I had just thought for the first decade of being a sexually active adult that sex was superior to self pleasure or that somehow, you know, my first masturbation was for people who weren't getting any other that it was shameful and that I didn't need to do it. I don't know why I had these ideas, because I saw. I mean, I worked so hard to dismantle those ideas but I had them you know we all I mean have to online stuff right. And so I feel like for me, it was a journey kind of navigating my own pleasure myself and I, and I didn't know that I didn't know I don't know how to how profound the discovery was when I finally actually looked at and explored and you know touched myself and used a vibrator for the first time and things like that. I didn't know that I didn't know it's so you know I went through I could have been one more decade of all my whole life, not knowing if you don't know that you don't know. How do you how do you have that awareness so I feel like it was so serendipitous actually that a funny little chance conversation with out of our friend who's bisexual who was living in Mumbai at the time sadly she's not here anymore. Anyway, so she had had a girlfriend for a very long time and then that relationship ended up not working out and after sort of being single and kind of healing and everything she was like ready to date again I think I'm going to try dating man and it's been so long since I've been with a guy and so you know, let's let's get back on the dating market and she was on a dating app and things and then she reported back to me like a few. Sometimes later about some of the experiences she's had she's had on with straight men and she was just like, Oh my gosh I don't know how you straight women do it. You know, I forgot how much men need to be schooled. Why would I bother having casual sex with a man when I have a vibrator. It's literally like taking bus when you have a Ferrari. So, I was like really the way she said it. I was just the joy in her eyes when she said my vibrator I was like I am missing out on something here I never even knew that it was this thing that people actually use you know I thought vibrators were like novelty items that you give you some friend on their bachelorette party or buy as a joke and that no one really uses them and they're just they're silly you know unfortunately they're presented to us in the mainstream and some sort of frivolous item. Maybe in other countries, the perception has evolved but I think in India still does like the sense that vibrators are some sort of stupid funny ridiculous item that you kind of buy as a joke or that's, I don't know kinky and I don't know why it unfortunately still remain seen in the slide. But my friend was like, you know you don't have a vibrator like you're so sex positive and everything when you have one and they had to get here unfortunately right but we did some Googling and we found you know that you can buy them online here and we ordered one. And then when it and when when I use and we tried to go for the best quality I could afford and really did the research did you know this, like in any product category this toys and this toys, and some are better than others. And if you are purchasing one I feel like it's best to go for something that you've read about, you know, do at least as much research as you would before buying a toaster washing machine or something right read the reviews. I feel like it helps to because pleasure can be so varied and what you like might be a little different from what someone else likes it's nice to try and find a pleasure product that sounds like it's going to be fun for you to use right and there's so much out there so we like spent a lot of time reading about different products available and then decided on one that had great reviews and provides both clitoral and vaginal stimulation simultaneously. Like, no human can. No, I mean, but anyway so we we we just bought it and when I when I use it for the first time it was such a revelation. And you know I don't think that a pleasure product can ever compete with a human being I think it's very unfortunate that men particularly seem very threatened by vibrators like oh my god. I mean, if people women have vibrators then what's going to happen to us and it's not like that. I mean, yes, I think the trade off on a casual sexual encounter when the only reason for two people to meet a sex. Perhaps that trade up because of the risk of pregnancy the risk of, I don't know, unfortunately in our society and if you're a heterosexual woman in a patriarchal society you know what is the worst you feel during an encounter. You know, in one with a man you feel violence and death. That's the worst I feel, you know, I mean usually for for a street man the worst he feels is rejection. As a woman you're legitimately concerned about your safety you know so unfortunately while I wish we could just have all the casual sex we like these are things we think about so I think in that context sure why I would rather stay on with my vibrator you know things that might be very disappointing but I think a relationship or some sort of and I don't want to actually even, I don't mean to put monogamy in a pedestal but whatever if you have a real connection with someone if you have a partner who is your friend and your supporter and a champion of everything you love and even just someone you have a shared experience with or share a space with whatever it is if they add meaning to your life, they can be replaced by a piece of silicone you know and if that's all that if the only thing they're providing you with is mediocre sex then I mean, are they even, what value are they adding really you know so I think this thing of like, oh I can be replaced by vibrators very silly and I want to dismiss that in fact a vibrator can be like a fantastic conspirator. There's so much pressure I feel on on partners to perform and to satisfy each other and things like that and I feel like the simultaneous orgasms are rare and you know it's very normal for people to have different different sort of levels of libido or different sort of duration till orgasm or you know sometimes maybe you're just like not in the mood to do some things and your partner wants to do another thing and I feel like we instead of communicating we feel a lot of pressure you know and and pretend and fake and I mean there's so many I think ways in which our communication could improve and I really think actually that sex toys can be a wonderful age to make every sexual experience very pleasurable for all parties and that it eases the burden you know why should I fake an orgasm and why should he have to keep going if he's kind of tired now. I think it's a win-win and I love and you know we love each other still it doesn't take anything away. So I sorry I went on a tangent but I did want to clarify that because I think a lot of men feel very threatened every time I talk about how vibrators are great. I think like I'm advocating for the demise of like the male lover and that's not what I'm saying yeah exactly and also the toys for people of all genders you know there's wonderful sex toys for penis owners there's gender neutral toys there's like toys for other parts of the body and and really your imagination. I feel is such a powerful tool and any toy can be used in different ways actually it's sad that they tend to be categorized as four men and four women on the website or like you know very sort of narrowly defined in their use but in fact you know you could use a clitoral stimulator for nipple play as well or I mean this is no no end to what you can do it's play right they're toys I love the word toy I love the idea of play and adding play to your bedroom experience and I think that we should just think of them as technology that exists you know even a pillow is a form of technology back when there were no pillows that people probably slept on their hands or didn't have a pillow and now you have a pillow and it's not competing with it it just makes sleeping uncomfortable right technology doesn't have to be electronic. And I think even in the realm of pleasure products people have had like pleasure aids even if they were not motorized for millennia right you'll tell us more about that I'm sure. Absolutely and I think that I would I'd like to sort of say that what you just said about how it really adds to the relationship experience but it comes through definitely says that if you have a really good. Pleasure mutually pleasurable intimate relationship then any couple who have that sort of love between them should use these. Pleasure instruments together. Because it just adds to it like you said it takes the flesh and the pressure of you of either partner at any particular time and it adds variety to it so you know you can stay monogamous but add variety without actually stepping outside the marriage and they read the advocated all sorts of different ways as a matter of fact. The chemistry says that it was really really important to create a palace shaped object for your beloved. Which would pleasure her so it would be to her liking and I think it's amazing that the man actually had to learn how to do this it was a skill that he had to learn to create the palace for his beloved so that he could pleasure her on on it at a time when they were together I mean how amazing is that. Yeah and I think I mean that's that's so fascinating and and I think people you know mistakenly believe that tech stories or instruments of pleasure some sort of new western invention or something but there's been a variant of some sort of. Pleasure aid across cultures and for centuries right, but I think it's talking about vibrators or it's a sorry I think I was telling you this story earlier that 2000 years ago when Cleopatra had her little egg she used to have this little wooden egg highly polished, which was sealed with really angry bees and she would use that. Now I mean the thought of it scares me I'll be honest but the idea is that yes the idea of vibrating inside you I you know it's not a new thought at all even the idea of the vibrations there were no batteries in her time so I guess she had to use this. That's so interesting I'm going to have to look that up, but no I think it's really wonderful also, even beyond just heterosexual relationships you know pleasure products can add a whole world of fun also to queer experiences because. And I think actually often people are less threatened by the idea of a sex toy in a queer relationship because you know, if two women or two people with vulvas are being intimate, you don't see some sort of vibrator or I don't know cylindrical shaped devices a threat or competition it's clearly. It's going to be fun for both of you and and just an addition to the mix but somehow I feel like we're so penis centric in heterosexual sex and so penetration centric and somehow the man thinks is, you know what is contingent on the size and shape and I don't know how long his penis last you know and I really think like. We should take a lesson from from queer love and particularly from the fact that the orgasm gap which kind of shows that heterosexual women are the least likely to be able to be able to report that they frequently are always orgasm during sex. When compared to heterosexual men gay men or gay women right and and many women also claim that they're reliably able to orgasm during self pleasure so why is it that in all other scenarios women experience orgasms but only with straight men. There's a big gap, obviously there's something happening here not that women's orgasms are hard to attain but rather that the over focus on penetration and the penis isn't really serving anyone right I feel like we still define sex, heterosexual sex, like predominantly as penetration and penis has to go into a vagina but why why can't oral sex be the whole event. Why can't you know whatever other thing that you both find pleasurable be just as legitimate as penetration and so many men right to me being like I don't think I have a big enough penis I don't think I last long enough. Is it okay if I sometimes struggle to get an erection I'm so embarrassed, you know I think that we don't have enough spaces, I mean, I actually think men don't feel comfortable enough being vulnerable publicly so we don't have very many like sex positive. I think that male influences right it's mainly women and queer people leading the way and women doing this work and sort of trying to unpack sexual shame and talking about pleasure and things like this. But men are so abundant in my DMs I feel like they are yearning for a space in which to be vulnerable but they've created for each other and for themselves this trap of masculinity where, you know, they don't talk about this stuff openly but I think if you're honest, they do also have lots of body insecurities around sex, a huge amount of performance pressure, worry about things like how penis size erection, all of this stuff I don't know. And I feel like even a lot of those concerns could be mitigated, you know, by being by looking at sex is more than just penetration by recognizing that you can please your partner in a lot of ways other than just that have nothing to do with the size or duration of your erection. And also the text doesn't have to end just because you ejaculated, you know, all of these things so I feel like it's really what regardless of gender or sexual orientation talking about the stuff so that there's more pleasure for everyone and I think straight women particularly given the that the orgasm gap is so skewed outside of their favor. We need to be talking about it, you know, we need to be talking about being need to be working towards it because, as I've always said, I think you know having an orgasm does such amazing things for your, for you, for your psyche for your stress levels for your blood pressure. It just, it makes everything better. You have a little orgasm, you move on to the rest of the day. It is fantastic. You move on for the rest of the day, the next day, and be really, really productive. And it's a good thing. It's, it's not a bad thing. It's a good thing to explore. It's a good thing to have. So, I agree with you. I think that we should be exploring pleasure. We should be exploring self pleasure if it can't come from other places and self pleasure is not a bad thing. It's not a simple thing. I get a lot of emails asking if it's a simple thing to do. Is it a bad thing to do. I even had somebody recently write to me and say that if she is still a virgin. Will that mean that she will have bad skin, which get pimples, if she hasn't had sex. And I was just thinking, I mean, not only do we put far too much weight on this idea of virginity and what it can do to you. But if you're that concerned that you think that not having sex or not having a sexual partner will give you bad skin, that maybe your hormones will change somehow then self pleasure with an instrument of pleasure will be the way forward. I mean, I think a lot of you know there's so many myths around what masturbating or not masturbating or having sex or not having sex is going to do to you. I think masturbation or sex or not having it or anything has anything to do with acne, hair fall, blindness. I don't know people have all kinds of associations that they want cleared up like will having sex or masturbating cause this, this and this or will not having sex or not masturbating. Like now you're gonna be fine you don't have to have sex and if you have sex good for you. It's really up to you but it's not going to you know it's not going to end up causing this list of like strange other outcomes that that are really falsely correlated. I think that I think that it's also important though to just I mean I want to just put it out there that there's no pressure to have sex there's no pressure to masturbate. There's no pressure for every sexual encounter to result in an orgasm I don't mean to be prescribing that this is how it should be and this is what you have to do in this. But I just think there's so much shame. Kind of come that we're all burdened with that I just want to reassure you that if you do want to explore or if you do think it might be fun or if you would like to have an orgasm. All means you know there's nothing inherently wrong with or as you were saying sinful or shameful about pursuing your own pleasure or investigating your own body. And exploring all of this stuff so I don't mean to be prescriptive I only mean to try to normalize this you know it's up to each person to decide what they want to or not want to do. And also I mean sex doesn't have to be goal oriented if it isn't ending in an orgasm it can. It might still have been fun and I feel like you know different people have different differing sort of attitudes to what's pleasurable or what they enjoy and for some people even just intimacy might be very pleasurable and might not enjoy sex as much or I mean there's people who are you know asexuality is also valid orientation and I feel like it's rendered almost invisible even though there's so much sexual shame. I feel like at the same time we kind of have this hyper sexual media landscape where we think that something you know you get punished for being a slut but you also get ostracized for being asexual it's ridiculous we shouldn't be punishing any of that right. Like live and let live I feel is the is the main thing I want people to be able to do. I just think that even just having conversations around it upgrade. I mean I just think like like you said you get punished for almost anything if you are having sex if you're not having sex if you enjoy the pleasure if you don't enjoy the pleasure. It's just it's like this is all bad this is like the bit of hell this the black hole from which you will fall through and burn and help fire forever more. But to come back to if a woman decides that she is going to explore a little bit of self pleasure and she's going to come and maybe pick up an instrument of some kind. What are your bits of advice to start off like what are the things can we give a little how to a little brief. Yeah sure. Um, I think you know again I think it's important to just the caveat is that like everybody is the specificities of your arousal and your pleasure maybe a little different from mine. But I think there's I mean the studies that have been done and stuff that kind of suggests that for a lot of people, this kind of thing works or for a lot of people this type of thing doesn't work. So it's from studies around the orgasm gap and stuff like that it does seem that the clitoris is is kind of neglected and ignored in heterosexual relationships because of this over reliance and penetration as the definition of sex. And I too definitely thought that you know that sex is a penis in a vagina or something inside the vagina and I didn't realize that in fact you can have only clitoral stimulation and have this magnificent pleasure. In fact, at least for me and I think this whole stupor a lot of people with vulvas clitoral stimulation is required in order to reliably experience orgasm where it's like the penetration is optional it can highly enhance an orgasm. I love the combination of clitoral stimulation and penetration, but penetration without clitoral stimulation is unreliable, at least for me and it seems to be statistically the case for quite a lot for the majority of women. There are some people who do find only penetration pleasurable and whatever you maybe you don't like clitoral stimulation at all that's fine too. So I don't there's no right or wrong way or I'm not saying that this is the only way and this is how you should do it, but there's some kind of I mean in in an attempt at making this information available and sort of understandable the certain generalizations I suppose that researchers have tried to make based on data pools of data and it seems it research suggests and from my own personal experience, I can corroborate that it is true for me that clitoral stimulation is among the most reliable routes to orgasm for people with vulvas penetration alone is not sufficient. And so a toy like a clitoral stimulator which literally has nothing phallic about it. It looks like a small, you know something you can hold in your hand with a little circular nozzle. For me like that toy was such a revelation because my first toy was a dual action toy that I described early on and it was like a rabbit style vibrate it was many years ago it's kind of a crude looking toy. But it has like a phallic insertable and then a small rabbit with vibrating ears that's on the clitoris and I like that toy it was it was a very fun toy as well but it was my first I hadn't tried a lot of toys. And having now it's like, you know, I'm quite the sex toy enthusiast, and having tried a bunch of different toys one of my favorite toys now is the clitoral stimulator. It's sort of like air suction based. So there's like a small the nozzle at the top just provides very targeted stimulation to the clitoris and you're holding it. And it's very comfortable to hold unlike a bullet vibrator or something that the weather whole thing is just buzzing. I wouldn't I didn't personally enjoy having like a very strong vibrating object in my hand, like that detracted a little bit from the overall experience and I love that with the clitoral stimulation that the vibrator is only acting on the clitoris and the rest of the device is actually quite stable and quiet. And so it's a very, it's just doing the right thing at the right place I find it very effective. It's also quite fun to use more than one toy at a time. Another thing that didn't occur to me early on I thought like you use this toy and then you use that toy and like the each, you know to be used individually but in fact, using like a non motorized insertable one like let's say, you know there's some really beautiful stainless steel, non motorized ones. There's also, but you know there's like, I know people think that glass toys are, ooh that sounds scary but there's a particular type of borosilicate glass that's very difficult to break and that's, you know, totally non porous and I mean the wonderful thing about glass and steel toys is they can last your lifetime if you care for them carefully that like good for the environment, you know you're not using batteries or plastic or anything. And they can be incredibly wonderful tools as well that like sensitive to temperature, you know you could put it in cold water or hot water beforehand or whatever if you want to experience temperature play things like that. So for me, working with a clitoral simulator and a non motorized wand together is glorious. I highly recommend it. And yeah, I mean, but I think you know I tried so many different toys, and then I realized that this combination is just explosive, all of them were fun I don't think. I mean there's some toys, like in as I was saying earlier also with anything like sometimes you get a dud right you might want to buy some. I don't know dress that looks beautiful on the website and you get it and like it doesn't fit or there's no pockets or whatever so you might this trial and error for sure you might buy a toy that you think sounds great maybe it's not as powerful as you thought or maybe the vibrations are too loud or maybe it doesn't it's not as comfortable as you thought like there's definitely not saying every single toy is perfect. And I think it's worth giving toys a chance like many people just get one toy they go for the cheapest toy and it's kind of dinky and and then like oh this wasn't even so great and then they never buy a toy again. I feel like as with anything that you end up enjoying you know even something as simple as food. Like, if you're trying a new food you try sushi for the first time and you happen to go to a sushi restaurant that isn't very good and then you dismiss sushi for the rest of your life you're missing out right. So I feel like it's worth like trying a few toys I know I wish they were more affordable, and I know they're not easy to access here but I feel like with anything it's a whole world. That's worth if you're interested in exploring what spending time and energy kind of figuring out the good from the not so good and giving it a chance you know there's a learning curve I feel it's not necessarily instantaneously going to be like you bought yourself the perfect toy and. But I feel like when you do I mean it can be quite life altering lots of vulva owners have had their first orgasm using a vibrator or a clitoral simulator or some sort of pleasure instrument because there is something incredibly effective about the stimulation they're able to provide so I feel like why not embrace this technology you know, just like we embrace all kinds of technology. I totally agree with you, I'm 100% with you on that one. Okay, let's talk about the, the little clitoral stimulators the toys that come specifically for clitoris stimulation. Now, I know that I mean I would also recommend to people that even you could even use it while you're having sex with a partner. Absolutely does do separate things all together you know and it's fantastic together. It doesn't take away from your partner men if you're listening out there guys. It doesn't take away from you this is just an added thing to add to the excitement of the whole thing. But let's actually talk about how you would use it how would you recommend because it doesn't have to penetrate so I think a lot of women would probably find that an easier thing to use because it doesn't have to be put inside you it can just go into the lips. Right. So with clitoral stimulators. It's a toy that can be used just externally on the vulva on the clitoris essentially. So yeah there's I mean there isn't really a part of it that's insertable that they make some with an insertable end but the classic clitoral stimulators literally kind of just like a device with a small handle and a nozzle almost looks like one of those things you could, you know those like electronic face cleaning things that has a similar similar look sometimes. So it's literally just something you hold and use externally. I do think that a lot of sex toys and actually sex in general can be more fun with loop and with clitoral stimulators maybe you don't need that much loop but it's still fun loop just makes the reduces friction makes things makes everything that makes everything fun I think lube is one of the unsung heroes of, of like pleasure, and lots of fun to incorporate into solo or part man play. And, and I think the other thing that I want to just say is that even self pleasure with your own hands or, you know, exploring things without something that you have to go out and buy or that you don't have access to or can't afford. I'm not saying that you need this to explore yourself pleasure like by all means please don't wait if you can't access a vibrate and you want to explore your body. You know your fingers and however you like to touch yourself and it's not just the genitals it can be your whole body, like you already have fantastic apparatus available to you. Without even having to purchase a product so I don't want to make people feel like they need this in order to access the pleasure or something there's a lot you can do with with what you already have. And there's you know it isn't inferior or somehow not as good or something they're just different experiences. In fact, there can be something quite wonderful about acoustic acoustic self pleasure practice. And it can sometimes be a more prolonged or sort of slow build up, rather than the sort of, you know, quite, I definitely intend to. Yeah, no no I agree with you one doesn't necessarily need another instrument but this is an answer to a lot of women, asking how to use instruments so. I just wanted to put it out there like I think sometimes because I'm so I love vibrators and I love toys and I talk about them a lot I think some people feel like does that mean I can't have fun without one and not at all you know not at all. And of course Lisa we can also use the same clitoral stimulator on different parts of the body because I know that nipples for instance are really sensitive area for most women and I think that this little buzzy gadget does beautifully on the nipples as well. It's really fun. I mean I think you know your body is a wonderland as that song goes and go forth and explore. I think the only pleasure product or one of the few that needs a little caveat or rather not pleasure product a part of the body that many people don't know enough about that you do need to be careful with what you put inside is if you're exploring anything with the anal region, unlike the vaginal canal which has you know you some something can get lost inside your vagina because the cervix will not let something go further. With any kind of anal toys, it's very, very important that the toy has a fled base, so you don't want to be using a toy that isn't intended for anal play, or even some sort of household object I don't know. The anal region because it can be sucked into the, you know, it can get lost inside you so I know that sounds scary but many people don't know this. So you don't want to be putting just anything you need for the, you know something like a butt plug or a prostate massager or whatever there's a whole assortment of products available for anal play. I know that all of them have fled bases because the product is designed such that it cannot get lost cannot go completely inside you. So that's just something to remember and also I think from a safety perspective it's important to note that, you know if you're using toys in one region and moving to another region you should sterilize, clean the toy before, for example, switching between anal and vaginal play or also if you're, I have multiple partners or have two partners at the same sex or whatever it is, and you're sharing toys it's also just good, you know you can use a condom on a toy. Things like that it's good to consider, think of safety, even when you're using toys, just like you would during sex because they are going in, especially insertable toys. And, yeah, I mean I want to add over here that you know for people who are using something like this for the first time women who wanted to use this for the first time with insertable toys particularly if they're battery operated and they're the lovely vibrating fuzzy kind. So you may not want to necessarily insert it you could also put it between your legs and just close your legs around it your upper thighs. And, you know that also will give you some kind of starting point. Yes. Absolutely honestly there's so much that is going to just be subjective to how you like things. Some people even find that the vibration, the intensity of the vibration of something like it's little simulators too much for them and so they might use it over their underwear or clothing, as opposed to directly on the genitals. Or you know you could use I mean any vibrating object could be used anywhere on the body and often these products are sold on online marketplaces and things with euphemisms just like massager, you know. And to some extent it is a massager I mean if you like how it feels on your shoulder blade or anywhere else I don't know it's your scrotum who knows. You're free to use it that way you know I mean I feel like there's no one to tell you what you can't do with these things other than from a safety perspective like what I explained about the butt plugs and things. There is no real rule book for where you could be anybody of any gender and have fun with it an assortment of toys I think we're too prescriptive in the catalogs of these toys that this is only for women and this is only for men and this is only. You know the gender identities exist beyond the binary and everybody with a vulva might not identify as a woman and I mean I feel like we need to open our mind to be able to sell more. Exactly yeah that's just marketing things so you can sell more products because you know if you say well this is for women and this is for men then you know that people are buying two separate. I mean I think like also the society tends to be so binary and it's viewing of gender that that ends just ends up being how people see the whole world I think women and men. But I think it's nice to move beyond that and now there's so many gender neutral toys available as well I hope they become more easily available in India but and they have like nothing phallic about I mean I think what's nice is that sex tech has really evolved. So these objects are not funny and crude looking they're actually quite beautiful and like the design and the aesthetics of the product make them a pleasure to just behold and use the way you would like to use any beautiful nice thing you know that you can get a certain using any object of beauty right even a beautiful pen or paintbrush can be so much of a pleasure to draw with or write with and similarly it can be just a nice wonderful thing I agree it can seem extravagant or something sometimes they're really expensive specially here. And I think they deserve to be some I mean everybody it wish that they would be as you know ubiquitous as toothbrushes or whatever other everyday product wellness product that we might use. So I hope to see that day instead of it seeming like this indulgence item or some sort of like thing for rich people or you know I think it deserves to be a very democratic and accessible tool because everyone deserves pleasure everyone. So tell me just to sort of wind up the conversation. How just when you're talking about what you can buy here meaning in India. Is it not illegal to have sex toys isn't the sex toy trade in in the legal. No it's not illegal. I think there's a lot of misunderstanding around this because it is a kind of nebulous and complicated arena in terms of what the law says so actually there's no nothing that says sex toys are illegal as far as I understand I am not a lawyer but I mean as you know there are a huge number of retailers. I mean it's like it's not just one there's you know 10 or 15 or 20 or maybe more selling sex toys online in India already. So it isn't illegal to sell sex toys per se. It's just that we have this obscenity law which is very subjective in its application. So what's one person considers obscene might be very different from what another person considers obscene but in general for example. I think most of the toys that are retailed here you will not see nudity on the packaging for example. They might be called massagers or you know pleasure something a little bit more euphemistic than very explicit description of what genital it's supposed to be used on and things like that. But I mean even very mainstream companies like the types of condom brands I don't want to name brands in this podcast because this is not what the podcast is about but just I'm sure people will know what I'm talking about. Very mainstream like very very readily available mass brands that are available at a chemist that sell condoms also make like vibrating penis rings and things like that and they're available today at the chemist you can in full view and that is a form of sex toy actually right. Lube is also readily available but the more common I mean the sort of foreign brands that have this cult status and other you know in other sex positive spaces globally and stuff that award winning brands for the R&D and design that they've made it's harder to get that here but their last place is where you can even get that here unfortunately you're being a premium because of the important customs and stuff but no it's not illegal. I think that it can just be difficult sometimes to buy pleasure products from from websites that are headquartered in other countries that have to ship to India, partly because you have to do like this old customs declaration type of thing when you receive a product from abroad and you have to declare what it is. And at the discretion of that customs officer, you may or may not get your product does he think it's obscene or does she think do they think it's obscene or not. You know, so you might get your product I mean I've received several products that I've ordered from international websites with no problem at all but if it looks very much like a dismembered genital it might be confiscated at customs so it's this very gray area in terms of the application of the obscenity law. It isn't actually a black and white this is illegal, you know, and that's how so many retailers are selling here I mean at this point even on the again I don't want to name brands but like think of the globally most prominent e-commerce marketplace run by a man called Jeff they're available there. So, look up massager, you know, look up massager is that what they generally go under. I mean there's all kinds of things even if you actually if you look up vibrator it'll take you to that, but often the retailer is calling it a body massager women's massager or pleasure massager or something like that. You know, it describes what it's in the very early 1900s when they started in the West selling vibrators and so on. They used to be marketed under household appliances with back. Lisa, do we have any golden rules for potential instrument owners? So I would say first if you haven't already first just take a look at your own Balva, take a close look, figure out what is what, explore the region yourself before you even acquire a toy, see what feels nice, what doesn't. You know, what kind of stimulation you like, what intensity of stimulation you like, I feel like just that can take like a few weeks or months. So I mean it's a journey, it's not a marathon, not a sprint. But I would say it's very worth your while to if you're interested in exploring this stuff to spend some time first just really getting to know your own body and pleasure. And then once you're familiar with sort of what you do like I think, or even in tandem perhaps you can, it depends. I just meant to say there's so much you can do before even acquiring your pleasure product that might make your selection more satisfying. And so when you look up the array of things available, it can be helpful to kind of figure out how the device works. There's often there's really wonderful like little videos of the products feature that they're not explicit. They're just like, you know, any kind of technological device review kind of video where you're seeing what each button does or the kind of with illustrations and graphics and things like that can be worth looking at that stuff because these products are quite expensive reading reviews, people have really honest like long reviews about which toy they like and things like that I think it can be quite helpful. So do your research and then I would say go for the best you can afford because it is a product that might be going inside you. You know, you want to make sure it's a body safe material I would say for motorized toys silicone is faster period to plastic for example. And with non motorized toys you want to make sure that the stainless steel or glass or whatever other if it's silicone as well, making sure that it's body safe. Ideally, you know there's a lot of information about different brands and the really well known brands have established quality and things like that so it can be helpful to just do that homework. And I think that when you buy a toy it can also be helpful to buy some lube maybe buy a sex toy cleaner if you like although even just soap like a good antibacterial soap and warm water does the job of cleaning your toys it's good to keep them really hygienic. And yeah, I think then go have fun then get some more toys and learning and the pleasure can be ongoing and infinite. And it should be ongoing and infinite. I mean why put a why put a moratorium on how much pleasure you can have right. Exactly, exactly. And as we said earlier I would sort of like to reiterate this that you don't always have to insert the sex toy into you so for all of you who've written in to say how do you use it how do you explore your own pleasure how do you get around to understanding more about sex toys. If you manage to get one, and you want to try using it, either as Lisa said you want to use something that stainless steel you could put it into cold water or hot water and then put it against different parts of your body to see how the temperatures feel. If it's a motorized one, again put it on other parts of your body. See how it feels put it, you know into the crook of your elbow but the crook of your knee at the back. I, that's a particularly nice area for me I have to say the back of my knee. There are just lots of spaces on your body that you can try it. I don't rush into anything. And remember that the whole idea as Lisa started off by saying it's about playing it's about having fun it's about pleasure. It's about joyousness. The point is that you're exploring something that will give you a great deal of pleasure. And it's yours to explore. Yeah and it's yours to explore it's your body. I feel like we don't have this message enough that it's out this is my body. You know I have autonomy and agency over this body. I feel like as a woman you don't get that message enough it's as if you exist only for other people's pleasure, not just sexual but you know you're constantly you eat after everyone else and you make everyone else and you're always smiling. You put your needs and your agency last I feel especially in South Asia we're like conditioned to behave like this as if this is not really my body and I just exist to please other people you know. And so I feel like it's so empowering to pursue your own pleasure in this very direct way. Sorry for interrupting. No Lisa I'm really happy that you said it because I was about to say that and I think you just put that with that across really well, we do always put ourselves last. And certainly when it comes to pleasure because I guess it's an age old narrative it's a millennial narrative that a woman's pleasure is not of any importance and I think that's what we are between us trying to change so I really hope that everybody's going to take something away from this chat and something that add to their lives. And for everybody out there if you've enjoyed listening to us please do like comment subscribe, we always love hearing from you. And certainly if it's people coming back and saying that they're going to put this to good use we like hearing those comments even more. Don't really Lisa. Absolutely. Yes, yes to more pleasure for everyone. Let there always be pleasure. I am, as you all know, on info dot Seema dot on and that Gmail dot com. I'm here for your questions so please do write in. And if you want to connect with Lisa she is on Instagram under these among the dust, not difficult to find her at all. And that's the best place to get in touch with her. In the meantime, stay safe, stay well, and we'll see you over here very soon again.