 Okay, welcome back everyone. We're live in Las Vegas. This is theCUBE, our flagship program. We go out to the events. Extract a signal from the noise. I'm John Furrier, the founder of SiliconANGLE. I'm Joe, my co-host Dave Vellante. We're day two of two days of wall-to-wall coverage of IBM's information on demand. This is exclusive coverage from SiliconANGLE and Wikibon. Our next guest is Rich Medina, co-founder and principal consultant at Daki Labs. Welcome to theCUBE. Thank you. So I want to just get your take on day two here. What's your take on the new event here? I mean, that's the IBM event. So a lot of IBM propaganda being kicked around and they're doing a good job. We had some good commentary. Dave and I did a little breakdown yesterday, kind of an analyzing it in this morning. What's your take? I'm exhilarated. So it's one of the first years where we see the content technologies being integrated with social, mobile, the cloud, big data and analytics. And so at least from a personal perspective, I feel relevant to everything. So Rich, you've written a lot about a variety of topics. So we're gonna talk about some of those today. But there's a presentation. If you go to RichardMedinaDakiLabs.com, RichardMedinaDakiLabs.com, you'll find a presentation on how to integrate your systems of engagement with your systems of record. That's right. So this is all the rage these days talking about systems of engagement. By systems of engagement, we're talking about social systems. Is that right? Or what do we mean by systems of engagement? Yeah, so kind of the conventional wisdom today is that the traditional systems were called systems of record. And that's basically what we had until the 1980s, 1990s and so on. And those were the database systems, transactional systems, line of business systems, ERP systems, basically what comprised IT until recently. Recently, we saw the advent of systems of engagement. So that would be social, mobile, cloud and so on. And so a big challenge has been on how to, well first, how to do systems of engagement properly, but also how to integrate them into the older, more traditional systems to get benefit and not to hurt yourselves. So what does collaborative systems fit? Are those the systems of engagement? Are these systems of record? They get a little bit of both? They kind of have a hybrid? That's a great question. No, they're mostly systems of engagement. What we, a good way to think about it, the way we actually have to get our hands dirty and try to implement these systems and so on. And so what we found to be very useful is to think about basically most of the stuff that IBM does in terms of three dimensions. So content management, which is managing content, objects, content and so on. Process management, which is managing workflow and processes and such. And then participation management, which is about managing the involvement and the human interaction of people and so on. So collaboration primarily falls into that dimension. Okay, so how do you integrate your systems of record with your systems of engagement? What are the steps to do that? First of all, why do that? Yeah. Okay, let's start there. Why do that? Well, of course, because everyone else is trying to do it. No, but because of that, it makes, there's something called enterprise content management really did not fulfill its promise. One of the promises was to get the right information to the right people at the right time and so on. And it kind of, pardon the expression, but crapped out using older technologies, maybe the web and so on. With systems of engagement using mobile, particularly in the cloud, you're able to let everyone who can, should be playing the game, play the game. Because everyone using mobile in the cloud can now use the enterprise content management systems and participate in workflows and so on. But more than that, it provides you with a lot more flexibility in moving around your resources, your people and so on. So that in the old ways, you'd have an org chart and so on and people who were in a particular department had to work on that and such. Using some of the technologies like expert identification and such, you're able to get the people you want to work on a problem, you need them to work with them and so on. So there are a number of this, about four other benefits too. So actually I wanna pick up on something you said about enterprise content management. So it seems like one of the problems was that you were, the industry was trying to industry, the practitioners were trying to shove all the data into one place. And that became the God box, if you will. And then the amount of data just grew like crazy and then mobile and social and you had this explosion of information. And then you're never able to get to what you needed when you needed it. So you had maybe, in the case of a need discovery, you had to hire a bunch of lawyers to go look it up. And that got very expensive. So what's changed from a technology and process standpoint to enable systems of record and engagement to come together? Yeah, so if you notice the kind of the benefits that I'm extolling are not, they're not magical and so on. And most of them are kind of hard headed in terms that they boil down, I'm having them boil down in terms of efficiency and effectiveness and so on. And that increasing knowledge or increasing hand holding and collaboration and so on. I'm talking primarily about increasing efficiency and effectiveness. And what they do is they reduce the transaction friction. So in the old days, right, I'd have to do a lot of tasks to be able to get a paper document. Then I'd have to do a lot of things to be able to get an electronic document. So if the documents were in the God box, I think that's what you call it, I'd have to, I don't know what name it is and so on. So I'd have to ask you and you'd be able to get it and so on. Or I'd have, that wouldn't work, so I'd scroll away on my own hard drive or share drive. Now with these systems, if you do it right, they reduce that transaction friction. So I'm able to get my stuff and get easy access to it. And we're able to sync and share a lot more effectively. So technology enables that, right? And it's sort of got us into this problem and it's helping us get out of the problem. Is that right? Right, so it's what it's a cause of and solution to all our problems, right? To quote Homer Simpson on something else. We've never had him on theCUBE, John. We could have him on theCUBE. But if done effectively. And part of that just kind of hooks back to how to integrate the two. We've actually, most of us are trainable and so we collectively in this industry have learned a lot from falling on our faces in the last 20 years or so. And so we can use our false starts and our mistakes and so on from doing analogous technology rollouts in the past. So for example, 10 years ago, if we were sitting here, we might be talking about mobile MFPs, right? Multifunction printers and such and now being able to scan in documents from these printers and be able to do that. And we found that many organizations when they tried to use those in an enterprise level had many, many problems. And those problems that they're having had back then and solved. We're seeing folks have the same sorts of problems with mobile. And we know how to solve them. We've done it before. So let's talk about the objective. Is the objective better productivity? Is it to reduce risk? Is it for the both of those? It depends. What are you seeing with your clients? Sure, so it's, you can boil it. Many of them are fluffy or derivative. Second order types of benefits. Increase customers, improve our brand and a number of other things. But they boil down many of them to making more money and saving money and controlling risk. The cost and risk of breaking the law and so on. So as I said, the transaction friction that comes down to efficiency. Doing more things and reducing cycle time that boils down to effectiveness and such. And then reducing cost and risk. That's one of the problems that you mentioned. If you don't do it right, there's a lot more risk and cost that you can incur with the new distributed mobile and social technologies. So in 2006, when the federal rules of civil procedure, you know, basically said that electronic documents are admissible in a court of law. Everything changed. And then all of a sudden, the general council became the trump card. And risk became the primary motivating factor. My question is, in ROI categories, all this fuzzy stuff, well we really can't justify, well guess what, we're gonna get sued. Oh, let's do it. Let's spend $30 million and fix this problem. Question, has the problem been fixed and has that bit flipped from one of risk to opportunity? Yeah, well I would take issue with what you said. Okay, yeah, let's state that. Yeah, so that kind of argument, that chicken little argument, that the sky is falling and so on. You mean that the general council was the tail wagging the dog. You don't buy that? No, because usually most, practically most organizations, unless they had been burned recently, wouldn't spend all that money and risk and so on. They really had to be proactive or risk averse or been burned recently for them to spend a lot of money and do the kind of inventories and everything else that data inventories. And you're talking about average mid-sized companies. Is that fair? Not about big companies too, absolutely big companies and too. Pfizer, Merck, JP Morgan Chase, some of these companies. Okay, so that's pharmaceutical and also financial services. Right, too highly regulated, right? Also insurance companies. So is it fair to say in those industries that the premise stands or? It depends on whether they've been burned recently and so on. A way, often a way to sell it or get them to motivate behavior is not in terms of chicken little or penalties that you may incur based on past things which were sporadic, unpredictable events, but rather on the operational cost of reducing risk. And that is, yeah, in the normal course of discovery, what you have to do, forget about penalties, in the normal course of discovery based on what you have to do, you incur this amount of money digging through the swamp. So if you start now doing good housekeeping, good document hygiene and reducing the swamp of documents and data and such, your discovery cost will be less and less and so on. Legal discovery. Yeah, also, yeah, so I'm sorry, two things, one is the proactive reducing the swamp and the second is the legal discovery, yeah. Yeah, which was volume-driven, right? Yeah. Okay, so has that problem been solved? No, it's gotten worse because in some estimates, again, I'm a little skeptical about the numbers and so on, but it's plausible. In some circumstances, the numbers are getting 40% bigger per year in terms of the swamp of stuff on the shared drives, hard drives and email and SharePoint and so on. So it's growing at 40% per year in many cases. And so that's a lot of straw in the straw, hay pile or whatever that you have to dig through. So on the plus side, folks are getting better at being able to reduce that swamp, but on the minus side, with many large organizations like the one you were talking about, it's beyond human manual ability to be able to sort through it. So you absolutely need technology to do it. And even with the great stuff IBM has, that it's still, it's early in the game. And so it's at that turning point where people are still trying to figure out and kind of stumbling around and how to reduce the swamp. What's the gait there? Is it being able to automate to things like classification? It's really, it's assisted classification. A lot of it, it's just repetitions. If you go back to the imaging world and so on, capture world, who knows billions? Who knows how many hundreds of billions of documents or more have pages have been scanned in and so on or simulated to be scanned in. So lots of repetitions as to what works in imaging and OCR and ICR and so on. Those kinds of repetitions and experiments have not been done yet in the automatic classification and reducing the swamp. There just has to be some time. So there's a difference between people who buy the products and so on and start to implement it and people who have gone and done it for years and so on and come out the other side. It's the same sort of thing with records management and e-discovery and such, particularly records management. That's been around since the 90s. And there hasn't been actually for enterprise deployments a lot of experiments and repetitions on that. Rich, John, you wanna jump in here? Yeah, no. Since I've dominated this, I get 20 more questions. No, I know, this is Dave. Dave loves e-discovery, whatever, that's the old term. Dave always brings up this conversation almost every time. I always wanna talk about Bitcoin. But... We were talking about Bitcoin last night, that was a good conversation. That's a non-sequit. I had to get that into Bitcoin, hashtag. Chief data officer. Dave always brings up this concept. Do we need a chief data officer? And that is a person who is going to be bizarre of data and this has been debate. No, yes. I've been with her which is like no freaking way. I.T. reporting to I.T. Who manages the data, the business units, the line of... This is the challenge. What's your take on this whole conversation? Do we need a chief data officer? Did the chief security officer help us with security? So these are the conversations that we were having yesterday. What's your take on that? Yes, and by data, just one clarification, do you mean also the unstructured documents and so on and the content coming from social media? Yeah, absolutely. All right, so for all... All data, I mean... There is a definite gap in their billing vision and management and a locus of responsibility for information. And big gaps in the structured data world as well as in the unstructured data world and so on. No one wants to take responsibility and be able to have the vision as well as the oomph to be able to make things happen. I don't know if it's a chief data officer. I've been through so many proposed three-letter acronyms for that role. Whether it's chief data, chief information officer, chief knowledge officer, chief records officer, all of them, most of them have come by the wayside. The question is, where are we in the innovation cycle? I mean, the innovation strategies are grounded in data now and you have legacy, infrastructure legacy, form-ass legacy... No, I'm with you. But part of the data, part of the two dimensions that we're talking about, the responsibility, let's see here, what needs to be done is to be able to manage, govern, governance on not just the content, the objects, but also the processes to show that you're following compliant processes and now in participation, who owns the mobile device management, the policies around mobile and the cloud and social and so on? Does that fall under the CDO or not? There definitely has to be a, there is a role for this CDO type person who would do the defensive and the administrative and the offensive aspects for data. I don't know if you call them the data or her, the CDO. So mobile has totally changed the equation, obviously. You guys are experts in mobile, you mentioned that up front. And it basically, it sends risk even further out onto the user's hand. So talk about mobile as a challenge, talk about how you guys address that and then we'll close. Well, with mobile, again, we assimilate it to previous instances of when technologies were rolled out that were distributed where things got out of hand quickly, whether it was Lotus Notes, not because of the technology, but because of folks organically growing it like weeds and then SharePoint, MFPs, a number of other things. And so what you often see is you start out in the middle. That is, you go into an organization and you see that they're sprouted around and it's unmanaged and so on. So what you have to do is to get, start the building up, see what the state, current state is, the state of fragmentation and mismanagement and so on, and then do a policy for mobile and for social and for some other areas, and then try to rein them in and then provide alternatives, a good route, so a good navigable route that's safe rather than this swamp with rocks and so on to mix metaphors. And so then you start building, designing and so on applications. One of which is for broad superficial mobile use, which is and also for sync and share and so on. And then you start talking about more sophisticated use with business processes, for internal business processes, say for accounts payable and HR and so on. And then for line of business processes, maybe for new drug approval and so on. Those are many and so on. You were talking about Pfizer or for customer new account onboarding, say in financial services. And so it's a combination of first seeing where you are, building rules and policies that day forward, you begin to send no more and then building good behavior and route so that people will be more efficient using the new ways rather than the old ways. Awesome, well listen, Rich, thanks very much for coming on theCUBE and we could go on forever on this topic. And the problems just keep mounting as the data grows, as you get new technologies like mobile, it's a real challenge that you're trying to solve. So appreciate you coming on and thanks for sharing your insights. Thank you very much. Okay, they were live here. Exclusive coverage, SiliconANGLE, Kupan's exclusive coverage of information on demand, IBM's conference, big data analytics, social business, cloud and mobile, all here right here in theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante. We'll be right back after this short break.