 Evan Thomas is a fabulous author and has captured the spirit of this these times in probably the most gripping of ways. We've asked him to take the leader. Evan can I turn it over to you? You bet. David's wonderful speech begs the question, shouts the question of when when the leaders, particularly military leaders in a civilian control system, disagree, dissent, challenge, higher authority. I want to answer that of each of the group, but let me first let me start with you, Admiral Mullen. Could Arlie Burke survive today? I guess in the way David captures him so well, I would say he'd have figured out a way to do it. Given those that he routinely challenged and the description I think of the word interesting and how he would draw individuals in, even as they got mad and even at that level and clearly want to hear from him again. So I suspect he could and that he would have figured out a way to adjust to the circumstances that exist today and very much so. Can you address the larger question of when, particularly a military officer in a civilian control system, when and how and under what circumstances, what are the rules of the road on challenging higher authority and dissenting? Well I think actually I think not unlike what what Admiral Burke did in the sense that that in discussions that are would be routine with your boss, your civilian boss and then those that you could when you when you disagree and feel strongly about it even as we can now right up to the president and it's not just me even though I have routinely more access to the president than the other chiefs but certainly they have they have the option and that it's done privately and it's done in a way that that I think in a timely fashion if you will and and that you have a president you know I the other examples I think that are there tied to what David's talking about is you had senior individuals who wanted to listen, presidents senior officers even if that maddened them they were they were also willing to listen and I think that's an important for anybody in any senior position military and civilian that you want to listen and having that opportunity give that advice and then as was the case in a couple of examples he didn't win them all and I'm sure that he marched off and did whatever the you know whatever the senior civilian leadership said and that's what we do now and so that both opportunity certainly I have it I had it with President Bush I have it with President Obama and I think it's a very important part of our system and opportunity to do that and then when the president makes the decision we're off and more of that let me just pick up with the last verse what's the line when you don't go any further how do you know when you're supposed to salute and keep going what's that moment I really think that as you have thought the problem through as you have tried as as David mentioned about Arlie Burke have made the arguments interesting that you have explored those areas and have had a thorough vetting of your position and in the society and in the system and with in which we work when the civilian authority makes a decision that's it I think you can't go in superficially you have to have thought the problem through yourself but when the decision is made that's it if it if at some point it is contrary to your your sense of honor or your ethics then at that time you have other options I mean at one point at least one point Admiral Burke basically went over the heads of others in the military to make a point to civilian authority and his eyes an hour took him aside and said don't don't do that again but is that is that can you imagine a circumstance in which you're a senior military officer military officers more senior to you have basically gone along with the president you say well no under what circumstances might you do that what what you talked about honor and ethics but can you be a little bit more specific about a moment in which you think that your senior military officers have just got it wrong or aren't challenging not to to dodge I mean I I think it has to be driven by the circumstances that you are in the issue that you're dealing with and and and the receptivity of your arguments as you put them forth and then and then you as an individual have to make that decision and and I do not believe that anything fits a mold because of the many facets of every issue in the in the complex nature of what we're dealing with let me ask you just one more question on this line what do you tell your your subordinates about this do you discuss this together when you with senior admiral's and and talk about the limits of dissent and are these conversations that happen at the highest level and I think that it's very very clear that the that the expectations of civilian control of military is is is unquestioned I think everyone that is subordinate to me understands the strength of my convictions in that regard I do believe it is important as a senior of that you foster the opportunities for your subordinates to feel comfortable and free and having the open discussions as opposed to having been held in check and then trying to release everything at the final moment and I think that that in in the ability to have that organization comfortable coming forward that that there is an expectation that opinions can be offered positions can be taken and and I think that that that is for the best of the institution and we're on now you are actually a teacher by Admiral Ronda as a president of the National Defense University what do you teach about this whole obligation or duty or limitation on speaking truth to power so to speak let's bring Burke as our example to the answer to the question Burke was absolutely able to constantly reframe the problem or reframe his mind around a new problem and so the notion of strategic reframing is an intellectual pre-disposition that either you have or that you learn and so what we do at NDU or what any of the defense education entities seek to do is to help us to reframe out from where we have been to something more that that that we should be thinking about and so what Burke was able to do and what we seek to do in the spirit of Burke is constantly seek to reframe mindsets and mindfulness about the issues are in front of us or Burke was able to do was be comfortable thinking eight to ten twenty years out we seek to do that as as well but it's it's about setting a mindset and the mindfulness about what you are in and the environment if I might say though in echoing also the chairman and the C&O Eisenhower was a leader who also knew what he had and so the respect the respecting of the mind of the leaders who are who are subordinate to you is also part of this so Burke was was allowed to be Burke and what of and one of the key things that that we seek to teach is to be respectful of the intellect of those who are junior to you because they may indeed have a have have an insight or a reframing that you do not have and so every good leader would seek that but we seek to to reframe and and to teach the ability to be comfortable in a different environment. Senator you've been watching this balance for a long time. Talk to us a little bit as you watch it over the years whether you think that the modern military has the balance right on its willingness to challenge the civilian authority or to challenge even within the military their own superiors. Do you have a sense of how that balances? Let's step back 41 years when I was privileged to be in the Pentagon in the Navy Secretary at the Melbourne Laird with Secretary and Dave Packard Deputy Secretary and we used to get in the rooms with the Chiefs and Larry would always start let's take off the stars and bars and let's just have it and listen to one another I want to know your opinion that's the same way I was privileged and I say with a deep sense of humility to be Secretary of the Navy always asked everybody for their view but maybe I could like to return to your first question to the Chief and partially answered over here but first to you David Abshar well done we are saying the Navy at a boy but you know as long as I've known you you've made one mistake in life rather than West Point you should have gone to Annapolis. I want to go back these many years I was gone to the Sixth Fleet in the Mediterranean and I'd met Burke. Burke had a protocol he would when you joined the Navy Secretary it would come a time he'd send a little note now it's the time I'd like to meet you and you'd go over and see him in his home and lovely wife and that's where I first got to know him but we're out on the Sixth Fleet so I did a little research my aid at that time wonderful man was Tom Hayward he later became Chief of Naval Operations but this one incident might have cost him that. I found that the ship that Burke had in his squadron was still a part of our active fleet so I went aboard we had a little breaches buoy that transferred me from a cruiser over to the ship and as a custom I always went down to the engine room as a part of any business board operating ship and I was just with the senior chief down there. There was no Chief Petty Officer Boiler Man down there operating that steam plant. I said do you think you could drive this thing at 41 I mean 31 knots like Burke he looked at me he looked at the other chief he said you betcha you know what I said crank it up and he looked at me and he said I usually take my orders from the captain but you're the secretary? Civilian authority controls. This is a true story and for those of us who've been aboard ship there's an exhilaration of when that steam plant throws full thrust to the screws and that rotating powertrain the ship trembles so I thought I'd better get back up to the bridge because it's gonna be a little consternation so I got up to the bridge and I had this program that I knew where Burke was and I called him from the bridge the captain ships there and Hayward standing there I got him on the phone thinking he'd be just exhilarating to know that his ship I said Admiral she's right at 31 knots right now and ladies and gentlemen I cannot tell you the response but it was a verbal heel hauling I mean he dressed me down I turned to the captain said the Admiral says bring her back and in later years we met and had a wonderful relationship I'm deeply humbled to join this distinguished panel and all others today truly someone who's idolized to this day by anyone who's fortunate enough to wear the Navy uniform. Admiral let me ask you a history question do you when you talk to your colleagues about these difficult issues about dealing with civilian authority and how far you can go do you talk about history you talk about Admiral Burke do you talk about how was done in past wars are you informed by history I think I'm informed by history probably for me more recently than than those times when I actually was much to my surprise selected to be the CNO I did some research then on Admiral Burke and I was actually stunned that in just that period of time his time as CNO which I recall was six years longest serving and what he was able to accomplish and I was one of the things I looked at that and I was wondering how I was going to even come close to matching up to anything like that to be able to accomplish so much in that period of time and I use that I use it from that standpoint from the civilian control piece I'm I guess I'm much more driven and informed by current times and by current times I'd say the last 20 years or so and you know my goal as a leader is to to be strictly apolitical strictly neutral and the in fact the state of the union or this week I've had you know many many comments since that about you know the chiefs when we stand up when we don't stand up in the in the aftermath of the the president's speech and and but but the goal there really literally is to certainly respond in a way that is supportive of those national security and military issues but other than that stay completely neutral in that and so amongst my colleagues and actually with my juniors I do talk a lot about the need to stay be completely apolitical and where that has where that is different from Burke's time I think is in though in the situation where the there is this seeking of news the vast exposure to media certainly in the media as you know as always looking for for the kinds of differentials to to in many cases sharpen issues but where I think it has gotten out of bounds is quite frankly is when we take the uniform off and there's tension between those who have worn the uniform on their whole life and then they they they take it off and there's tension between free speech which is nothing that I certainly would ever take on but I think in ways it can be a very difficult to understand certainly I I frame a lot of this from the in terms of the farmer in Peoria who's really talking on the news cycle or who's writing because generally speaking they're still called that role or general on the one hand in the other hand that we're training in that regard many of our young officers in particular but not exclusively that that it's it's okay to speak up and it's okay to disagree publicly and constantly and I worry a great deal about that in terms of the apolitical position that the military is in and so and actually one of the things I've asked Admiral Rondo to do is address this issue actually all the war in all the war colleges to our young ones because I think we do need to make sure we have it right and because you're both encouraging them to speak up at the same time saying watch it but they have to they have to do it correctly and they really the treasure here is the apolitical military and it is in my view what we have to I think ensure we guard and retain at all more at all costs in this democracy and it goes back to who we are who we work for it very clear civilian control and when and when as I think Admiral Ruff had said you know when we disagree and it gets to a point of ethics or morals or when we actually are working for somebody and they don't have confidence in us then it's that our only choice isn't to speak up at quite frankly is to move on let me ask you more specifically and you've been asked about this before but but at the most recent example of this when I got in the news was general McChrystal's sure statements this sure how do you think he handled that well I wouldn't I don't want to how do you think he had it was you know very difficult position obviously very early in his tour in in what was certainly if not then but rapidly becoming the most visible four-star position in the United States military and it was one that was made much more challenging because it was it was public and actually one of the things and this is part of us growing as an institution growing is both as an individual and General Chris and I talked a long time about moving into the four-star realm it's different and then he was going to do it on the world stage and that's a real challenge so you know all in all I thought he did handle it well it was a very very difficult it made the the challenge of the review that much more difficult and certainly I would have preferred to not do it as publicly as it as as we did and we all learned a lot in that regard and certainly I would hope that you know in further strategic reviews we can avoid that particular model and well let me ask you a question about the Navy in particular by tradition captain of a ship has tremendous authority the old days complete authority because there was no communication but even today where you can talk to there is a tradition of a captain of a ship having all this authority and yet when he gets on land he's got to learn how to he's not not Admiral you keep putting like Nelson putting his spyglass up and saying I really cannot see the signal how do you balance this this tradition of authority and command authority on a ship with deference to civilian authority what do you what do you tell your captain well as you pointed out one of my favorite Burke quotes and I identify with it a great deal was you do have the autonomy on a ship as he pointed out going to see used to be fun and then they gave us radios and I think that that even translates up in our current connectivity that we enjoy but I think for me and one of the great things about our Navy and something that I place tremendous value upon with all who serve and wear this uniform and Burke articulated this himself and that the Navy is a culture of command it is not a culture of staff and and that simple concept makes us who we are the willingness to step forward when something needs to be done the willingness to accept accountability which is oftentimes judged to be a bit extreme in the Navy but that is what our culture is and I find that that culture of command translates ashore as well because it is about the willingness to take on the hard things the willingness to lead and most importantly when things are good or bad you accept the accountability and and so I do not see a distinction I see it as this great strength of this service and I am extraordinarily proud of the men and women who live that culture so let me go back and ask you this question again because you've been you're in a position having to serve this for a long time from a wonderful perspective where you're dealing with it with the military do you think that there is any evolution here for better or for worse on military willingness to stand up to civilian authority either good or bad in that direction or that it is a fairly even progression I found that particularly the individuals in the military that get the flag right in the Navy with a general rank in the Army they know at that time to accept a special response or they'd be very candid throughout my career in 30 years in the Senate I had of course on the Armed Services Committee regular contact with the senior officers and I always had a policy very often to leave the aides in the anti-room and just sit with that officer with none of my own staff and just exchange views I found it very productive and I'm sure I've had it with you and I've had it with you in my office on that basis by the way I remember when you came up to CNO I asked you when I was Navy Secretary did we ever meet and you rather define me said no and you said you added this you said I was a lieutenant at JG I was on the gunline this is during Vietnam War he said I did everything I could never get to the area and I never wanted to go there well what goes around comes around you own it now but Evan I got to tell you the American citizen should be grateful for the young men and women who all volunteer now and come up into these ranks and work their way up and give their lives and their career together their families and when they get there it's always been my experience whether it's been in the Senate or the five years I was in the Navy Secretary they shot straight with you and we're on down let me ask you this is really the same question do you see any evolution here the military getting more or less willing to stand up to or to challenge for again for better or worse civilian authority is there any trend I think that the questions framed interestingly because it's at the edge it is at the edge I think that young people or older people I think that what determines the leader who can do this responsibly is a one who's intellectually curious and the one who was able to ask questions of him or her herself and of their environment so this is not at some edge of the first act you go about your your professional life and you ask questions you try to understand you try to analyze and at some point you come to a to an aggregation point where where you would say this does not make sense or this is a better way and you come to that in an analytical mature professional manner then by that time you also have understood where you are on point then you go through the chain and you bring it up to your leadership and usually the leaders are going to let you air that because you thought it through and you've done a very good job at that so our job is when we're educators is to try to help the individual officer or sailor or airman soldier marine to get there so that they can come to an analytical understanding of what's going on once you do that your boss your leader is going to be grateful and for the most part they're going to let you they they will help you carry their right argument they may even help you shape it better so that it will be successfully argued so in my mind this is not not about the edge point of when you must take on somebody at some point of adversary it's about being compelling and good and competent and coherent so that everybody else is then compelled this was Bert's gift and this is the gift of good leaders is to be able to do that and know where you are intellectually so the intellectual curiosity of a young person today is to understand their access to information is is without precedence our job as leaders is is to help them get there so they feel as though they're being heard so that we are listening this is about a conversation and not just about being at the edge of being the adversary if that is happening and it happens every day then you have a really healthy military and a healthy environment I had a point these fine officers are managers but bottom line they're all commanders and foremost in their minds at all time is the fact that they're responsible for the life and the limb of those in the ranks their decisions put them in harm's way their decisions direct them to perform those duties that that's a special burden that none of us in private life or politics or business or whatever we don't have that on our conscience that's why I always feel they give it their best amen to that let's take a question from the audience David do we have time for a couple of questions all right let's take it anybody want to ask a question that there's their mics there just stand up to it now's the time yes ma'am I have a question for Admiral Roth had this experience in Haiti with the military going in and offering relief have there been any lessons that we've learned from it in the future on how we might be able to get about that faster I think there are as you may recall there have been a couple of responses similar to this the tsunami of 2004 in the Pacific the Indian the earthquake in Pakistan and and so we're always looking at how we can do this better and at the end of of the experience in Haiti whenever that may be we will have learned much from how we respond how we stage the types of skills and equipment we may need and and I think that's one of the great things about not just humanitarian relief or anything else that that the military has a wonderful culture of learning from our past and from our mistakes and we are willing to expose things that perhaps weren't done as well as we would have liked and analyzing why that happened and how we can be better we are constantly renewing and reexamining ourselves any thought so far as to what you might change I think that the one of the things that has been very important to me and what we've been working on for several years post tsunami is is the continued integration of non-governmental organizations and our military forces and other agencies we have come a long way I think that we have to continue to work on that because when you pitch into one of these relief operations of this magnitude it is not one entity that will pull the whole thing off it's the integration of that see Dick Solomon here we've been working very closely with his organization and I think there are going to be a lot of opportunities there to continue to develop those types of relationships and and protocols that allow allow us to come together more quickly thank you thank you can I just comment I'm have been both intimately involved and I think the response has been remarkable given the one the suddenness of it to the scope of it and the ability for us to both muster resources and get them there in the in the in the mass that is required as opposed to the individual piece and I did I thought some of the most remarkable stories were some of the rescue units I mean there was a rescue unit from China which got there in 33 hours out of Beijing the Israeli hospital that got there and and all of those are really an important part of this but and we had units you know we had our Coast Guard was magnificent literally as as the right after the earthquake it is however it it has taken much more than that to get some structure in place to be able to handle the scope and the volume of the tragedy and it really has come in many ways as a result of our our assistance in Indonesia and Pakistan even Katrina here where you couldn't get there fast enough even there you never can in these and and yet and I'll just use an example of the comfort which got there in record time you can't you can't beam a thousand foot ship in you know with all its people you'd like to be able to do that but it but still based on previous experience comfort got there in record time and look what she's doing now and that's just one example getting the other forces on the ground so we clearly will learn and we're much better than we were but from my perspective the response has been magnificent from NGOs USA ID from our government and from many other countries as well in addition to the men and women in the military sir hi I'm Al Pesson from Voice of America have a question for Admiral Mullen on this theme of leadership and what you consider as you chart a course in a complex situation towards a destination that's been determined by the commander-in-chief what sort of factors you have to consider and I'll give you two to talk about one is don't ask don't tell and the other is relations with China because the Taiwan armsale just announced last couple of hours so how do you try to balance you know this commitment to Taiwan and a decision is made but the imperative of remaining engaged with China but now that I've talked about China don't forget about the first point that I actually be happy to answer the second question I'll answer the first question Tuesday at the hearing the the issue from a from a leadership perspective with China I think is one that I have I and others have responsibility from a military to military perspective and opportunities as has been the case with many many countries I actually find it a little bit ironic that we're talking about Admiral Burke who put the Polaris program in place and I literally last week was in Moscow in negotiations with my counterpart with respect to the start follow-on treaty and which which has an awful lot to do with the vision that he had even though he didn't win all of that which to decisions that we make and how long they last sometimes we think of them in the short term so I actually try to think about how I handle myself and approach this from the long-term perspective you're here and what after you're here in Washington a while at least there is an opportunity to look out more than just tomorrow and what does it mean and the reason I bring that up in China and particularly on the mill-to-mill because my thoughts are very much not anywhere not not even close to just the senior leadership perspective because I really want our younger officers to meet each other because that's the future that's going to be the relationship that's what we lost more than anything else in Pakistan when we sanctioned them for 12 years is those mid-grade officers who are now generals that don't know anything about the United States and so I always have that in mind even in the discussion earlier in terms of both accountability and being a political I'm half of my mind goes to our young ones so that in the long run that change can be made and I feel that way with China and I'll I'll save Tuesday Tuesday's answers for Tuesday on don't ask don't tell I certainly recognize the question and I and I understand that this issue was moving very rapidly thank you and tomorrow with session here you know I think what's so overarch is civilian military and Burke understood this is the power of ideas and I'm going to take two examples one John with my naval hat we're not going to anapolis because I served on the board of the Naval War College and then my army hat with a visit long visit I had privately with David Petraeus last week but you know here are two cases of a whole change of strategic tactical doctrine one by the pen and ink sailor that bupers constantly tried to sink as he he went to history Petraeus went to the lessons of Iraq both learn both got their acolytes so David Petraeus described this how they got the buy-in the puzzle they put together out at Leavenworth I remember I went to I'm mentioning the White House that Petraeus was at Leavenworth they ought to bring him back you said you know in the penitentiary I said no I won't say who said that in the White House now last administration but the that that Mahan got his acolytes TR Roosevelt who then became assistant secretary but before they were going up the Naval War College the chairman of the the Foreign Relations Committee John Hay became Secretary of State Elliot Root and they when they came then to Washington there was a whole strategic vision in the move into the Pacific the only reason the only thing we had prepared in World War one with the Navy to support the army over there was due to one this one guy and his thought process in the acolyte Petraeus did the same and you know they they changed a mindset in the way you fight in asymmetrical war and I told him you know this is very similar very different than my and then when you get into this it blurs civilian military people are moving forward on on ideas and and doctrine and of course the other thing that I've always said I've said this my last book this civilian George Marshall great Secretary of State as well as defense and and the National Security Advisor this mix is good this military experience mixed with civilian State Department slept learn to appreciate that we need engineers former four stars in USAID today and so for so but I think this has been a been a wonderful session and it really we're indebted to to all of you John here so we I think we better wrap it up wrap it up and and but but I really thank you all for being with us and echoing the one and only Admiral Artie Burke thank you very much I'd love to just get together and have one sometime you'd like to do that thanks and all on my face