 It's been a long, long day. I got a lot to say. It feels like I'm carrying a two-ton weight. I go and see my friend. Hello, I'm Monsignor Patrick Winslow. And I am Father Matthew Couth. And we are speaking from the Rooftop, a podcast brought to you by Tan Books, in which we invite you to join our conversation out here in the open air, where we look out upon the world around us from the rooftop of the church and share with you what we see. Hello there. Greetings and welcome back to From the Rooftop. I got to say, the other day, I received a glorious little gift. Remember, I think we had one time in which someone gave us some mittens, hand and mittens and other things, remember? Oh yeah, because we're on the roof. Because of the roof. And someone dropped off a bottle of bourbon in case we got chilly up here, which I just thought was a great idea. I think it's a brilliant idea. So are you fishing? Shout out to that. No, no, no, no, no. One must stay sober. But you know, in the northeast, as a priest up there in upset New York, I would run into pressures at the liquor store. Because you have to buy your wine at the liquor store. You have to buy everything at the liquor store. You can't buy wine at the grocery store. You have to buy everything at the liquor store. So you run into all sorts of people and they're buying scotch and whiskey and bourbon and the stuff for the holidays as well as their wines. It was common to see a priest walk in and see all these people. I moved down here. Oh yeah. And people looked at me like I was in an adult bookstore. I was walking in to a liquor store. And I'm like, why am I getting glared at? And you would have thought I was in a place of ill repute. And it was such a cultural difference between the north and the south. That's true. There's so many counties here that are dry. So it's a complete difference between the northeast experience. You feel guilty, right? Because you think, okay, I am fulfilling the narrative of whatever this particular denomination is about a priest. So one time. But if they're in there, that's what I always said to myself. Yes. Wait a minute. If you're a particular denomination that has a problem with this, you shouldn't be in here either. Well, that's a good point. So it always elicited the comment or two from the person behind the counter. When you're the caller and I said, well, I come to where you work. You should come to where I work. Yeah, exactly. It's good. Do the invite. But you know, it's true. The cultural perceptions and these sorts of things. But what made me think about it is, you know, somebody giving the gift of like a bourbon or whatever. That was a very common gift in the northeast is to get a bottle. I think Scotch was very common. Scotch was more common than I think the clerical culture of Scotch up there was closer to Kentucky here. So that's true. It was a bourbon. But that was a very common. Do you remember though, this is probably one of my funniest moments ever in an ABC store. So to fill you all in, Father Winslow had just been assigned to a new parish. And what we try to do when a priest friend of ours gets assigned a new assignment is to not have them enter that assignment alone, because that's always a bit unnerving and unsettling. And so a bunch of us got together and we helped him move and we moved him into his his new rectory and we had been, we've done this several times because we've all been moved several times. And so we get everything set up and we're going to make some dinner together, etc. and spend the night and say some prayers and what have you. So invariably, you're looking to set up your bar, right? You want to make sure you have the drinks for the guys that come, whatever else. And so we went off to the ABC store, which is what the liquor store is down here in North Carolina. And we just got all the staples basically. So whoever came, they would have what they wanted. So all the basic staples. As soon as we called, we had to walk out to make a box. And so we had to walk out with a box. Like a big box. And it was clear that we were making an impression, right? Because here you are with, with, you know, four or five, six guys in a collar, and a significantly sized box to set up a bar. And instead of feeling embarrassed, because Father Winslow never feels embarrassed, instead of feeling embarrassed, he picks up the box, he picks up the box and walks out. He says to the guy behind the counter, see you next week. I do remember that now. It was my introduction to the ABC store. I'm the new pastor. I'll be here. See you next week. Next week as we walk out with a cart. Oh yeah. Well, you know, you know, one of the things I noticed or I've been attentive to recently in the prayers at mass, sometimes that's referred to in theological circles as ucology. That's the study of prayers. But I've noticed in the prayers at mass a reference to our Lord as His Majesty, that royal reference. And it makes sense this time of year, especially since we've celebrated the Feast of Christ the King to end the previous liturgical year. So that sense of moving toward the kingdom of God where our Lord is Prince and King of that new realm. So what struck me more recently is I found myself intrigued with some of these Asian dynasties. And in particular with their desire to see something divine in a princely figure. And then I contrast that with what I know about some of the Western sovereigns and our understanding divine, divine right monarchies coming out of the the Middle Ages and that way there was also that's something divine. But at least the divine right monarchy was the notion that at least the hand of God wanted that person governing that monarch governing. There was some connection there. Obviously, prescending from political theory and the blending of theology and governance, kind of separating those things out, just kind of separating not really entering into those things. The tendency or the human tendency or the notion to ascribe something close to the divine with a royalty. And now seeing these prayers and recognizing these prayers, I find it all very fascinating because I don't think that we think, generally speaking, of God and our Lord so often in majestic terms. I think the tendency of the modern era is to think of God in more spiritual language, more communal language, but not as your majesty. Yeah. Recognizing the dignity, the nobility of the one with whom we're engaging. I'm just I'm struck by it because it seems to me that there's something woven into our human nature that desires this or is oriented toward it. And we see it satisfied in the fulfillment of divine revelation and the person of Christ who sits at the right hand of the Father as the king of the universe. And this is not just sort of flowery language. This is what we talk about as a reality. For people don't like royal, you know, the whole royal phenomena, you're going to have to get over it relative to God, because that's the way it goes. There is a sovereign in heaven, right? There's no democracy. There is no democracy. There is a sovereign. And there's no escape in that. I think you're right. And I think that in the general movement toward egalitarianism in such a way that we would, we all want equal opportunities, right? And then that sort of begins to transfer into equal outcomes, which is a huge problem, right? Because it's not a merit system. It's not a hierarchical system. And everything down to the smallest microbin creation has always created hierarchies. And there's a reason for that, because there is a hierarchy. There's a hierarchy to being and there's a hierarchy inside of heaven itself. And you want, there's something that we long for about having that noble king to serve a Lord. We call him Lord all the time. But I think it's been evacuated of its context and its meaning. Like, do you ever think about him being a Lord when you say the word, oh, my Lord, or Lord help me with this? You don't think about him as being your Lord and so far as a king. And that thought struck me tremendously when I first went to seminary, because I was looking for an image in some ways to replace the image that I had gotten growing up. Because the image I had gotten growing up was that Jesus was basically a friend. But a friend that never really asked you to do anything and didn't really have any problems with anything you did, and who were really bad. The friend who was there for you. And you don't have to be there for him. If you wanted him, yeah. He never let you down. But you'd come to him when you needed him. And ultimately, he was wearing sort of a rather short cropped sort of rag sack thing with a belt and almost sort of Franciscan-esque in terms of imagination. And I remember distinctly, maybe this is too revelatory, but I remember distinctly sitting out in this field one time and I was looking at the sunset over these mountains in Colorado. And I recall my impression when I was a boy of Aslan being this lion that was the king. There are a lot of people that haven't. Yeah. So the Chronicles of Narnia by C.S. Lewis. He has, it was made into a movie not long ago, but Chronicles of Narnia were children's stories, but they're not just children's stories. They're certainly stories for adults too, in which these kids get pulled out of our world into a different world. And they meet this lion and this lion can talk and so can the animals, et cetera. But what's interesting about the lion is that, of course, the lion is Christ in a different world. And his name is? His name is Aslan. That's who you're referencing. And the lion that is throughout the book is that Aslan is not a tame lion, but he is good. And those two things kind of go together. And so I've been thinking about this relative and never made the connection when I was a kid that this even referred to Christ. Interesting. And thinking to myself that I never liked the image of Christ that I was given. And so even when I went up to receive first to the community, I pretended that it was Zeus up there giving me a lightning bolt. That's interesting. Because I wanted something that was more powerful than me, obviously. And so the thought about Aslan, that he's good, but he's tame, but he's good. He's not tame, but he's good. He's not tame, but he's good. So you're scared on the one hand to be in his presence, but he's good. And so you don't have to be at the same time. That difference between fear of the Lord and his majesty and the fact that anything he wills is going to be good. Long story short, I end up in this field in Colorado. And all of a sudden I had the distinct impression that the Son of God was next to me. It never happened to me before in my life that I was a kid. And I didn't turn, he was on my left side in my own mind. And I didn't turn because I had such a sense of his majesty. And I was so afraid of what I thought about him before and the way I had treated him, but the sense of the weight of his majesty, of his glory. And certainly it wasn't an experience like John and Patmos where he sees Christ, whom he had known so well. And his clothing is like wider than a fuller's lie and lightning coming at him as it were. And he's afraid. And his friend throws his face down the ground until Christ touches him and says, don't be afraid of his eye. And then interpreting that scene that happened to me, it completely transformed my thoughts about Christ. And all of a sudden it matched up with what I loved about Aslan. Never having known that Aslan was a figure of Christ. Yeah. So I resonate with that completely about his majesty. Because I always do think about his majesty from that moment on. Well, first of all, I would say as a methodological note, this is a perfect example of how you and I, we have conversations and we just circle something. Because I feel like I meandered and wandered in a circle when I queued up that topic. You were always one queume up though. Yeah, but it's the reason why I'm speaking kind of in a circle is because I I'm thinking I see something I'm thinking out loud and talking with you about it. So this is, you know, to be sure if someone said to say, well, he's not really teaching that point properly. Well, no, I'm thinking out loud. I'm really not. We're not teaching at all. No, we're, this is the whole ethos of this podcast. We're having a conversation. And it's just something that struck me. And as you know, certain things can strike us at certain times in different ways. And they become illuminating. Then you say to somebody, oh, did you ever think about that? Of course I've thought about that. But it somehow hits you in a way that you can't really articulate. Not that you see it better or more, but it's having an impact. And that's something you can't translate. Right? You can say to somebody, yeah, of course, he's the Lord of all. Yeah, of course. Of course, he is his majesty. But do you get it? Do you truly resonate with that reality? And the more you resonate and comprehend that reality, the more and more you're kind of saying, you know, you're nudging your friends saying, do you see this? Did you get that? Yeah, that's a good point. I wonder if we could flip it over for a second. In other words, we spoke last time about those kings that didn't get on with their spiritual life. And so they were stuck. They weren't allowed since they made God wait. God now makes them wait. Right. That's sort of their punishment before they go up to purgatory. I wonder what it's like to be a king. I mean, we have some saintly examples, right? Louis, Edward, St. Louis. By the way, he's one of my grandfathers. He's not your relative. No, he is. Just because you do a DNA test and you find out that you've got French blood does not mean that you're related to St. Louis. Proven Winslow? The Winslow family. This is why he's now interested in royalty, everyone. I do anticipate a certain amount of certainty. Yeah, we're in an interregnum right now. There's no king on the throne. But what was it? The saints that we do have that were kings, like we read in the bravery. If you're a priest or a deacon or a lay person, you read the bravery of Elizabeth Hungary. They typically will give us a letter for something that they wrote. The most beautiful one, of course, is St. Louis to his son. Right. And of course, St. Louis's spiritual director and confessor was St. Thomas Aquinas. St. Thomas Aquinas. Just get that in there. That's true. So that means that my patron… He was not very successful at the Crusades. My patron? Well, that's fine. His success is different, right? That's true. But a beautiful letter from one of my grandfathers to his son, another one of my grandfathers. It does mean that my patron was over your patron. Yes. Just say it. Yes. Well, there is that. But he's definitely not one of your grandfathers. Well, that's true. Yeah, that's true. But his spiritual father. Yeah. You see in those letters, that they realize that they're stewards. You know, like they might have the title King. Right. But kind of like Lord of the Rings, Gerard Tolkien, he's got that steward of Gondor. He's not the real King. And you have to give way when the real King shows up that every one of us on whatever level that we have any authority is a steward. And the reason I say flip it over, don't you think that the reason that we sort of want to be able to have the noble King and we want to use terms like Lord and Majesty and everything else is because we realize that I don't want to rule everything. I'm not capable of ruling everything. Matter of fact, I find it to be terribly burdensome. But to know that you had someone up there that you could actually serve, I think it's hitting upon something in our nature, the very way in which we have been made to just do that. We've been made to serve the highest King. With the knowledge that the King, if we serve him well, is the one who then guards himself and has a sit at table and serves us. But I don't want the responsibility of running everyone else's life. You might think I do. Oh, because you do. At least around here you do. That's my job here. You're my only visit. But you know, so you know how people are, they feel honored when they can say, oh, you know, this famous person is my friend. Just like I said, you know, I'm with these kings, yeah, exactly, there's a certain sense of being honored by it. Mind you guys, just you should know that in his office, where he tries to run everyone else's life in the diocese, he has a massive picture he had paid Van Gogh, right? El Greco of St. Louis. It's a devotional. To tell everyone basically that this is my grandfather. He's holding a sister. Just so you know. And with his son next to him, it's a devotional. Thank you very much. And that son is your father, probably. They're all my grandfathers. So, yes, it's a devotional. My father was very pleased to see that. That you got the family tree in there. Yes, he's very proud of that. Who grafted that onto there. He's very proud of that. My mother will be the first to point out the fact that it's by no merit of his that he has a saint in the family. The saint does not get passed down the bloodline. No, it does not. It does not. So, okay. So we're honored. Like when we know famous people and we say, well, you know, so-and-so and it's connected to so-and-so. We do this always in the fabric of society and in our social lives. And we have just an intuitive sense that the glory of that person is going to flow onto us. But when it comes to God and approaching him and his majesty, what is so attractive is to recognize that the place that he's afforded us is to be a noble in his court. Yes. Yes. And that is an elevation from what we intuitively sense is our natural state. And so there's something about that implication of royalty and the nobility that is bestowed upon us. That we react to and respond to and are drawn toward in part because we're recognizing that on a natural level, it's not ours. But it is a gift to us. And to be able to claim, I am part of this noble royal court. Yes. And we've got to reclaim that. I mean, liturgically, we've tried to reclaim it, right? We certainly have in this diocese in many ways. Try to make sure that what we're doing with the king, liturgically, has that sense of nobility. Because we're ushered into those things. And if you think about the words that we now use, sort of post-Vatican II relative to the faith, we often talk about them as those who enjoy the royal priesthood. Right. We don't say the indentured servant priesthood. Right, right. That's us. It's a nobility. Right. Well, that's it. Exactly. That is us. That's true. And I want to say, too, that tendency or that natural attraction toward that sense of nobility in a human sovereignty or a human monarchy is fraught with problems. It makes no sense that the royal family of England or the royal family of this country, or for that matter, the royal family of these Asian empires throughout the ages, that they are somehow more dignified than any other person. Or that they earned or merited anything. They're just born. Yeah, they might not have merited, but they were supposed to keep the our stay, right? I mean, they were supposed to translate the excellence. They were. Of and to be able to embody that, because we all do need to look up to someone. But so often they didn't. Sure. No, no question. They did the precise opposite. I mean, they did really the opposite. I mean, if you look at their lives, I mean, on display, I mean, this is the problem. Often times. And this is the tension, right? They would be people who would be born into a royal family with the play they're not free to be who they want to be. And at the same time, they'd be showered with all these trappings and influence and so on and so forth. But at the same time, the people demanded something from them. And they wanted to see, as you say, the excellence. Or even just they want to see a show of power or a show of good governance or whatever. Benevolence. It's true. We cannot live without it. Right. It's what it is, but the right end is the sovereignty of God. And that is the right end. But without God, look how violent and hideous it looks in human history. In human history. Because it turns into either very egocentric, condescending type of monarchy. An atheist state is ultimately a self-defication state. Yeah. I mean, it looks the same way. It's just in different shapes and patterns. And other people are just completely disposable. Yeah, but I just want to make sure it's clear out there that I'm not saying that I'm not making any claim on the goodness of royal families. Oh, I'm all about monarchies. I'm totally into monarchies. That's why you're going to surrender yourself to my royal lineage through the plantations. My noble leash. Yes. No, it's true. I mean, at the end of the day, does anything inspire? And again, because it doesn't become incarnate and because we have an experience, it doesn't mean it's not real. Because it's pointing, it's like a fairy tale. It's pointing at something that is real, which is the heavenly court. But separated from that reality, it can rot. So why do you love Cinderella? Like, why do you love, why do the stories about paupers being raised up to princesses and proper kings and happily ever after? And why does Disney take the Nosh Van Stein and place it in the middle of Florida or California or wherever and say, wow, doesn't this draw people? It does. Even if Ludwig, who built Nosh Van Stein was a complete, I think he was a rather big crazy man. But nevertheless, you looked up to the castle. Like, you looked up to these things and said, I want to be part of something because you're made to be, as you said, part of the noble court. I think that's really, I think the right exercise is to say, okay, when I look at royalty and sovereignty and say, everything that is extraordinary about that, take it and apply it to God. And then recognize that you've been invited to be a part of his noble court. And that's the thing that when we talk about looking at the dignity of other people, regardless of their state in life, and this is where you rail against the whole notion of some people being better than other people, nobility being better than serfs. That kind of thinking, we would say, no, that's an absurdity. It has to be merit-based. And in this case, we're talking about the level of dignity imparted by God, all of you are called to be nobles in that royal court. And your rank among them is going to be much, it's going to be discerned to a far greater degree regarding your goodness and your response to grace than anything to do with the state to which you've been born in this world or in this life, or in this society. But when you approach people and have conversations with people, I think it would be interesting as an exercise as a Christian, just to say, this is an acre of God's sovereign kingdom. And this is the noble entrusted with that land. Who are you? Who are you? And every person then becomes cloaked in that majesty. And how do you treat the people that you quote-unquote subjects, but the ones you ultimately serve, right? I think it's interesting that because this is in the human heart, because we gravitate toward it in fairy tales and everything else, and you can't really eradicate it, it's that which creates the sort of the romance of who you actually were made to be this Cinderella story. And at the same time, instead of eradicating, as we tend to do now, the authorities, the pageantry, the royalty, whatever else, instead of just like getting rid of them, which is what we do now, holding them to what they're supposed to be and demanding it in some ways of them, which also means a kind of pietas, that I recognize that as a Catholic, this probably was one of the great things about having a Catholic nation in some ways, is that as a Catholic, I will give you the deference that you are due as the ruler of this land, knowing that you're a steward and a god, but we're both going to kneel down at the same altar rail to the king of kings. Right. I mean, what a leveling playing field that was. Right, I think you talked about this as the level of playing field being the confessional line, that you would have the movers and shakers of a town with the least influential standing in the same line. And so in other words, I guess you could say that the same line as Augustine you could say as a king, like with you, Saint Augustine says, I am a sheep, but for you I am a shepherd. And the faithful should make their shepherds, whether they be secular or ecclesial, they should hold them up in honor. But that honor means be what you're made to be right now. Like this is the role you've been given and do it with the kind of ability. I'll do my role right now, because I might be in your place someday. I might be the one who's the shepherd. But wherever I am right now to be noble in that field. Right, to rise to the occasion and be authentic. And that's the great reversal there of, or as you mean, counterintuitive, which is the greatest of all is the servant of all. To ascend is to descend. And it's that paradox where that nobility is found ultimately in a nobility of love and in any event, without going too far because then we're kind of running to the end of things. And it's not the right moment to start swirling around another topic. We'll do that next time. Yes, we should talk about love. But we should. I am the doctor of love, right? That's true. That's what they always make fun of me as. Your doctor is an understanding of divine charity. Yes, because those who study. Don't even finish that sentence. So, before we go. Can't. Some of you are going to go out and get trees. Yes. I have two things I have to say. Let me go in and get out. Some of us have already gotten some trees. Some have already gotten trees. Please, for the love of God, let it be real. Right? And number two, no blue-ish kind of garish white lights. Oh, those are horrible. They have to be soft. They have to be flame-like, right? They have to be. Incandescent. I mean, X, absolutely. You have to look. The LEDs have not arrived. Get closer. Rare is the LED that has that warm flame-like color. If you want to create the atmosphere, it's got to imitate fire. Don't set your tree on fire. But you got to imitate it. That's what I'm saying before we go. I'm in agreement. That's a really good one. For me, it's also about scent. I love the pine scent. Absolutely. You know those pine cones that you came in? The pine cones, the candle. The diffuser, I'm happy with too. This modern fangled thing where you're diffusing. Basically, it's a humidifier with oil in it. Right? So, give me some pine oil on that thing. And it just smells so beautiful and lovely. Fantastic. We'll end here, but once we were living in a rectory together, I'd say, Thomas, as many of you know, and we had a tree that was so old and dead, but we refused to take it down. It was almost March. We just loved the Christmas tree. It was beautiful light in the morning. We went out and bought pine spray. It kept spraying. So, it smelled so much. And it turned. No needles left on it. Oh, gosh. I mean, you'd brush against it and a thousand needles would fall. The poor woman who came in to clean. We almost got it to Easter. We did. I think if we put anything, any flame close in seconds, it would go up. Gone. Absolutely. I mean, you've seen that here with the fire pit. Oh, it's great. These things go up like that. Yeah, with all those trees, those high, high tall trees, and they go up in a second. It's a wonder there were more house burnings with Christmas tree. That's true. Now, don't be discouraging people from a real tree, though. No, not because the modern light is so safe. But remember, as a kid, you touch a bulb and you burn yourself. It's true. I mean, how many cats have burnt hoofs because they touched or they remember the cats, they would go at it and they get burnt. But two, as a kid, I would touch them. I know. I remember. The bubble one? Remember the bubble one? The bubble what? The liquid inside would bubble up. Oh, yeah. They're still on those again. Are they really? So, I'm in the store. They're probably retro now. Yeah, the retro. Yeah. Now, those are kind of fun. As a kid, we had tinsel. Did you do tinsel? They're so stupid. Tinsel. Tinsel. I mean, it was so much fun, though. I hated it. The cat would eat the tinsel and then recycle it. Yeah, well. I mean, that was another issue. With these noble thoughts. Yes. We'll let you all go. Yes, we'll let you go. Have a great week. All right, sounds good. Thanks for listening to this episode of From the Rooftop. For updates about new episodes, special guests, and exclusive deals for From the Rooftop listeners, sign up at rooftoppodcast.com. And remember, for more great ways to deepen your faith, check out all the spiritual resources available at tanbooks.com. And we'll see you again next time. From the Rooftop.