 Yeah, and I have to know Okay, so on today's agenda good morning everybody or afternoon or evening we've got hackfest planning for DC and Beijing so title update us in particular about the DC area, which we now have a confirmed host and And then reminder on Beijing and again You know, we'd like to get a sense for who's willing and interested to Help us with that both from a hackathon perspective and the hackfest perspective Quick update on the internship program. I believe that the Nominees we're all supposed to get their Their nominations in by last Friday so Todd you can update us on where we are with that process and then Just as an FYI we don't have to cover this more the the Proposals for the requirements working group charter and the fabric composer project or that should say the composer project We're both accepted by the email vote. So those will proceed and then Dave Who's be has joined us as our security maven and so he's going to introduce himself and Tell us about what his role is going to be and then we have two proposals one from Nathan George on Hyperledger Indy and The other from Benjamin Ballin on Hyperledger burrow and then if Thomas joins us then we can also finish up the Q&A on The GSL and then next week be I've been away on business travel and pretty to face meetings pretty much since our last call and so I haven't had a chance to to work on the Sub-project discussion, but I'll I'll get to that And we'll discuss that next week any other topics that people would like to bring up if not then let's begin Todd All right hackfest DC area confirmed Monday and Tuesday April 24th and 25th. I just dropped the registration link Into the window there. Please register as soon as possible if you're planning on attending Also, we have a draft agenda It is sparse at the moment But like all the other hackfest if there's topics you're interested in working on or things you're interested in learning Please drop those suggestions in there We'll work on getting that all mapped out the morning of the first day and then for Beijing Brian are you on yet? He may be a few late, but the thinking remains the same for Beijing Linux on well, we'll have the first year in Beijing and for all of China for that matter this year June 19th and 20th During that we're gonna have a hyper ledger track running But the thinking is the June 17th 18th the weekend before to run a hackathon And then follow that up with a hackfest June 19th and 20th in tandem with the hyper ledger track So wanted to write it Just mind people that what we're thinking of for the hackathon is not your typical Contest to write in or something like that and come up with some cool blockchain solution but rather to actually be You know looking at JIRA finding bugs or issues that can be triaged and worked on and Contributed as change requests or pull requests as the case may be And then we would spend the hackfest time basically going through those and Reviewing them and merging them or you know engaging the contestants as as appropriate So it's really more of something to sort of engage and get people to consider contributions and again this sort of help grow our our technical community in the Asian Pacific Yep, exactly Any questions there on either hack DC hackfest or Beijing all right moving along quickly internship program We did have about 40 students apply really happy to see the response there the next step We are going to be setting up a meeting with the six mentors to review all of the applications that came in and hopefully get Those finalized by the end of next week and then we can move forward into the work on that And then Chris you did the FYI on the two things that passed and that brings us to Dave Dave are you on? Yes, I am on All right, good morning. You guys hear me. Yep. Yeah. Hi. Sorry. Oh I guess it's me, huh? So I'm sent out a media email to the TSC mailing list yesterday to introduce myself I am the new security maven I've been on board now for about three weeks. I'm not going to repeat everything in the email Basically, you know, I'm really excited to be on this project. I bring along a lot of experience in open source To what we're doing here and I am just well anyway, you guys can read the email I don't want to waste your time we can move on If you ever want to contact me or have any questions or anything about security Or about just software development processes. Give me a call. My door is always open. I'm based out of Las Vegas So that's the Pacific time zone, but like the rest of you I pretty much work around the clock. So Thanks for the warm welcome emails that I got from everybody and Yeah, that's it Welcome Thank you Anybody have any questions or Well, hi Dave, this is Leonard. Yeah, hi friends Welcome to the team. I am you myself and I'm learning a lot about blockchain But you seem to have a keen interest on identity So I take it to be welcome very closely with the identity team to formulate Framework and requirements Yeah, I might lean on a few of you to bring me up to speed on the big issues on identity But yeah, Mike one of my main focuses right now is solving the identity problem I was talking to Brian last the last couple days about how I think the identity problem is Where all of the other applications overlap, you know, like if you want to work in and say Bank, you know, like stock trading you have to identify yourself if you want to work in You know interfaced with health care records. You have to identify yourself. So I think getting a truly Good story or stories. I don't think there's necessarily one right answer Having that in our back pocket any time we talk to people It's going to be key to the success of all the applications of the technology that we're developing. So I Have part of the other reason I have a keen interest in it is because I've been working in Personally and or privacy enhancing technology for about 10 years now Before joining this before joining hyper ledger, I worked at Mozilla on Tor browser issues and I've been in the tour community I'm also involved with the Human Rights Foundation. And so I've typically been Focused on end user privacy And how to properly handle personally identifying information and things like that. So My involvement or you know my interest in the identity problem Will definitely be colored by that perspective How can we create a good solid identity solution that doesn't become the central point of surveillance and Human rights abuses, you know, right? That's a real big challenge. How do we give the end user total control over their information? Really so Yeah Thanks. Welcome on board and we look forward to your contributions. I say, thank you very much and speaking of identity the next topic on the agenda is actually to review and discuss the proposal to contribute project indie and hopefully we have one of the proposers on to share that with us and I Can maybe be started on our first identity project German are you on to make the proposal? Yeah, so actually I'm here This is drum and read from ever name in the sovereign foundation and I'm here in the same room with Nathan George who many of you met at the last hack fest and also Jason law who is a CTO at ever name and chair of the technical governance board At sovereign foundation and so the two of them are going to do must of the talking here I would just using my machine for efficiency Okay And if you want a class present presenter over to my machine, I do have some slides up that I can show Rather than pass it to drum and if you pass it to Nathan George Yeah, I think I'm listed as making George. Let's see. Yep I'm only seeing drum and in there Nathan George Well, he's gonna type his name in So I'm gonna click not yet because Nathan's In the Project proposal description. This is the description out of the project proposal So the sovereign foundation has been working on creating a global public utility for identity and that consists of a lot of Different pieces that are required to make it so that we can anchor an identity out in a public space that everyone can use That can be compatible with multiple different ledgers and different applications The idea is to make an identity system that anyone can add an identity to and then allow All sorts of different systems to interact with so that you can make it attestations and create credentials based on Different identities within the global network of identity and then you can leverage and use those identities inside of other systems So When we talk about a ledger that's purpose built for identity, there's a few things that are really important to remember and to consider The first is to make sure you keep all of the identifiable information off the ledger while still keeping the ledger available to anyone In order to anchor and put an identity out on that ledger So there's a few techniques that are important for doing that to retain privacy and to make it so that there isn't Correlatable information that's out in the public the first one is we use a system of pair-wise Identifiers and the second one is that we anchor things to the ledger rather than publish any sort of encrypted data Various other ledger projects that are involved in hyper ledger like R3's Corta and also fabric have different approaches to doing that where they can share transactions and information amongst private parties, but because the Identity system in particular needs to be compatible and checkable by anyone We have a bit different approach there to make sure that any identity can be validated It can be compatible across any of the systems that needs to be used for And then we have some careful consideration of For not putting information on the ledger that isn't supposed to be public or shouldn't be publicized And the second thing that is really important to think about is you need to have a system for interacting with these Identities that's contextual meaning you only expose the parts or information of your identity to the parties That are it's relevant to so instead of publishing that information on the ledger we use pair-wise identifiers that are published on the ledger and Then when you go to see where what how to talk to one of those pair-wise identifiers You talk to something we call an agent that can present the parts of the identity that are relevant to that particular identifier So you end up with mutual Authentication between those two agents where you know what their pair-wise identifier is and they know what your pair-wise identifier is And then you can present attribute-based credentials To the parties that are involved in those interactions and we've designed the The credential system or the information exchange system In a way that preserves the privacy not only in terms of presenting information that signed with those pair-wise identifiers But also in terms of being able to revoke the different kinds of credentials and attributes that you've shared in a way that preserves privacy as well There's some links that I have both in the project proposal document as well as in this slide deck Which I'll share out Later today on the thread for the project proposal that go through first the ABC for trust model Which is something that Jan Kamanish and his team at IBM have been working on that? We draw a lot of inspiration from in terms of how our credential system is put together as well as a Paper that was published by our cryptographer at Evernim Dimitri because man go Tovich Corva Tovich excuse me Who has put together the system for doing revocation in a privacy-preserving way on top of those credentials The other piece to point out to this group I think especially is that this identity model is is really designed from beginning to be interoperable. It's very small and thin And those identifiers are meant to be something that can be used in a lot of different places and wrapped with a lot of different kinds of compatibility and The system itself makes no decision about whether the information is correct or whether it's trustworthy So a lot of that depends on whether you understand the semantic meaning of the schema that's being presented And it also depends on who it is that's a testing to that information And so relying parties make their own decisions about what entitlements they're going to grant and whether they're going to Trust the information that's been exchanged So what this gives you is it gives you a system for making sure the bright person is saying the thing that needs to be said And then you can handle anchoring The identities that you trust and managing the entitlements that are associated with those Credentials of those pieces of information that are exchanged within whatever ledger system or within whatever identity system Or with within whatever transaction or Validation system that you're you're already using So there's a few tools that are used to accomplish these things You've heard us talk before about decentralized identifiers and the DID spec This is a specification that we have been advancing not only with Indy and the project that we're doing here at sovereign, but it's a specific Systems where they're doing identity and the permissionless legislation The you port folks that are working on top of Ethereum are working towards this specification as well as the folks That are working on top of Bitcoin with blockstream and block stack are also working at supporting this DID spec Which is something we've been advancing with those folks and working with them on for quite a while We also have a system for verifiable claims, which I mentioned before and here's the links to those The links to those two papers that I mentioned earlier are here. It goes to the technical details on how we create Claims and then also how we create proofs that are based on those claims And the proofs that we build are zero are capable of zero knowledge proofs So we can do selective disclosure on any of the credit or any of the verifiable claims that are exchanged between identifiers And what this creates is it creates a system where we can Establish information that can be used to authenticate or to exchange or improve information required for transactions And then we can selectively disclose and share that information in order to participate in transactions as needed And then of course we also mentioned the idea of an agent Which is the part of the system that runs on behalf of an identity that makes it so that we don't have to put any Identifiable information on the ledger itself So once you get an identifier you can validate the keys for that identifier correct and then we have a system for creating service endpoints inside of the The payload of the DID or the decentralized identifier that allows you to look up where those service endpoints live and then you can talk to that service in order to To query it for what types of services it provides and what it's able to support and then you can interact directly with that other identity Through that agent and the agent is also a very convenient point to integrate into multiple kinds of ledgers We have some projects where we've been working for with a use case specific ledger Where they might be doing financial transaction settlement or another specific transaction type of interaction and the Agent allows them to both validate all the identities and then use the information that's exchanged between those agents and leverage it as part of that those transactions required for transaction settlement, so It's a convenient point to integrate between multiple different ledgers and make it so that you can exchange information with strong With strong identification or strong authentication plus authorizations So in the spirit of keeping things short We're kind of just blasting through all this quickly and then we can handle questions and talk about whatever Things are most interesting to the group Indy has various component parts In the last few calls we've started calling those sub projects. So the sub projects at Indy There's are there's a common library. We currently do have our own ledger. That's been purpose-built for identity As I've talked to folks in the past, we're not particularly tied to that ledger We're hoping that as things mature and go forward inside of hyper ledger that more integration opportunities come up And that there'll be an opportunity to integrate hopefully at the ledger level as well as in other ways in terms of making it so that the identity model We're using with Indy is fully supported in the other ledger systems But we have two parts to our ledger We have the consensus layer and then we have the ledger itself and we're calling those out with the brand name of plenum So that it's clear that the Indy identity model itself is compact could be made compatible with other ledgers We have the component that's called the anonymous cred component the anonymous credentials component that like I mentioned before is Where we do the claims and the proofs and a lot of the cryptography necessary to make sure we have a privacy preserving identity system We have the system that runs a ledger node Which is Indy node which adapts plenum for the transaction set that is required to support identity We have a component that manages what we call the reference agent Which is the agent that we expect anyone who wants to join sovereign as a global public utility can go ahead and integrate with and start with This component is actually quite new right now. So there's not a lot of code in it quite yet. Most of the code for the reference agent is currently in the project we call Indy client Which is really like the SDK or the library pack that allows you to interface with anonymous credentials And allows you to talk to both the ledger and also the other agents within the system And in addition to the version of the Indy client that's written in Python Which matches some of the other code bases that we have we have a new version of any Indy client Which is being written in Rust to be wrapped as a linkable library that any C callable Programming language would be able to pick up and use in order to expose the same functionality that we're talking about in the Indy client component So I think with that I'll open it up to questions And then we can use other slides in this deck to talk to any of those other points As you folks want to dive in This is Whippin First of all We had just just to keep a background. We had several conversations on the identity working group with The sovereign slash Indy folks So we are kind of aware of where they are with the various Initiatives and proposals, but could you make clear what the separation would be between sovereign itself and Indy as a contribution to the Hyperledger project Um, as we mentioned before Sovereign isn't in the intention of sovereign is to be a global public utility for identity So basically to take the Indy code base and use it to make a network for identity that would be useful Globally across the entire internet and the sovereign foundation Intends to manage kind of the technical requirements and the trust framework requirements in order to make identity as a public utility But Indy as a code base Would be useful as this as what you might call a side chain or a side ledger to manage identity in any Project that needed identity And we think that that would be useful both in terms of adding an identity component into an existing ledger that Focused more on smart contracts or on settlement amongst other types of transactions Or it might be very useful for some network that wanted to do identity but not at a global scale For instance, if there was a country that wanted to do identity and make sure that identity stayed isolated to just that country or a particular vertical or industry that needed identity without wanting to expose that identity globally they could create a Ledger or a network using Indy that they could use to accomplish that purpose of identity And then those identities would of course be compatible with a network like sovereign because they'd be based on the exact same identity model And Then also in terms of integration we think that a lot of these components these sub projects Could would be very compatible pieces with the other ledgers Meaning they could substitute out the plan of component if that was something that the other projects desired so vip and this is this is drumming and Let me say a little bit more about the sovereign foundation and what what that's about so Sovereign is independent global nonprofit organization that was set up exclusively for the purpose of providing this very thin governance layer for a public permission to ledger So that the what we're submitting is the Indy code base was a code base developed to support that ledger And you just heard from Nathan, you know all the other things that we believe it could be helpful in supporting One of the reasons the sovereign foundation joined A hyper ledger was because of the synergy we saw not just on the code base, but with the you know the goal of creating this, you know Industry standard open source Software for powering Blockchains of any kind, you know, whether private permissioned or in our case this sort of you know unique area of public permission So the goal of sovereign foundation is to run that public Permission ledger. I mean to govern it to provide the trust framework. So it has a board of trustees or 11 trustees on one of them Has a couple of working groups to set up that governance the trust framework working group just published the The first version of the trust framework for the network. I'll put the link into the into the chat and So it's you know and and ultimately it's responsible for sort of stewarding and making sure that the code base moves forward and That is overseen by a separate board. They're called the technical governance board and Jason is the chair of that And maybe he can speak for a second about the technical governance board Sure We've got a number of folks From around the world mostly us, but we're wanting to expand that We're actively recruiting Individuals to come especially in security and privacy to help us. We've got a number of requests out right now for some additional help there We meet once a month. We have a lot of asynchronous back channel communication and we do have a slack Slot team for sovereign where a lot of this has been happening. I'm not sure how it's going to transition with If we're Joining hyper ledger will have to transition that and do things a little differently there, but I'm definitely interested in getting involved Yeah, so right so drumming and Nathan, this is Chris So I guess my question and you know, I'm glad you brought up the working groups and sort of how all this Sausage is made so to speak today Because I think it's kind of important that we sort out as a function of approving and Incorporating, you know, the indie project into hyper ledger as to exactly How it will work going forward in other words if we have working groups that are deciding basically What goes into the open-source software and it's being you know managed, you know from a Get Garrett Jira, whatever, you know perspective here in hyper ledger, you know, what's the relationship between the identity working group in hyper ledger and the various working groups and At sovereign and Is you know is membership in sovereign a prerequisite to being able to participate in the working groups there? I Don't understand how all this is Going to shake out and and and I do think that it's kind of important that You know as a function of our review and approval that we do get a clear understanding about, you know, how How these you know how sovereign and hyper ledger are going to relate to one another in this context? I strongly agree and I see Nathan sitting or nodding next to me In particular, we've been running our project like, you know, it's holy open source I mentioned we have some working group calls a couple of our folks will probably be dropping off to go to those working Ledger working group call today Which starts at on the hour Anyone's welcome to join those our code is all on github. It's under the Apache to license The calls that we have we typically run very much the same way that the calls I've joined from the hyper ledger project run Our intention is to move all of the development Of sovereign over to the hyper ledger ledger indie project underneath hyper ledger and do the development work there And then we will maintain the genesis blocks with the public network of sovereign within sovereign But then develop the code out in the open with the hyper ledger project because we think that that will both broaden the exposure And also make the code more useful to folks who have reasons to work at a smaller scale than at the global scale of identity Um So I hope that that answers part of the question. Um, and if I can't answer chris sort of the other party question about um You've got sort of two bodies governing or or working on a code base um, and we have thought about it quite a bit and actually discussed it with uh, uh, brian bellendorf Um, and the way I see it working is actually quite clean Which is the code base is under a hyper ledger and as nathan just said, you know, it's open source. It's it's a meritocracy The sovereign foundation and specifically the technical governance board will have certain Requirements for the sovereign network. Uh, that will be reflected in most cases in the trust framework And again, I'll put the link in the in the chat here and just admit it um and basically it's a customer of Of that code base and it's like hey to do the following things that we think are necessary for You know for the operation of the sovereign network, which is what will be one instance running instance of Yeah of indy. Uh, we need the following things in the code base um If if we ever got to the point where there was a conflict between that and what was required for indy, um You know, I think we tackle it, but we don't foresee that's going to happen Um, there there's those there may be features of indy that are not used by other implementations or other ledgers that use it um, but I don't think the the features that would be required by uh, the sovereign foundation for the sovereign network are going to conflict Um, so it's essentially it's one customer of that code base We believe the code base will be much stronger for the sovereign network Um as well as for anyone else to use it if if we're doing this, uh, you know Combining forces and doing it under the hyper ledger umbrella Right, this is fine. If I can if I can just add I I see in the long term It's kind of looking like the difference between um, say I can you know, uh, if we're talking about dns, right? it's like the difference between I can and the IETF and uh, people like paul vixie Who are implementing dns software, you know a lot of overlap and personnel between these three buckets but uh, kind of distinct distinct roles and um, I I think in the long term everyone works together in benefits, but uh, um, that's that's how I see the relationship between sovereign and uh hyper ledger uh and in indy I guess but brian, I guess the the thing that concerns me is If somebody comes along and wants to contribute to indy, let's say or to one of the sub projects of indy That we have some clarity as to how the sausage is made so they figure out how to engage if they Need to sort of absolutely all of that has to happen at hyper ledger the same way that it has to happen with other projects, right? so um the transparent development practices and and the You know having that community run that process and making it multi stakeholder all of that has to still happen with indy It indy can't take it from sovereign, right? Um, uh, or be be driven strictly by sovereign's demands. Absolutely. And I think I think everybody on the call agrees Yeah, we all agree with that. Actually, let me also make it clear. It goes the other way as well any um hyper ledger participants be them individuals or or organizations Who want to get involved with the uh, what the sovereign foundation does which is, you know, again This governance piece of a global network. We welcome you with wide open arms We would love, you know, anyone who's interested in that any any, uh, you know, corporate entity or individual at hyper ledger We'd love to have that participation. You know, we're we're building a global utility for the internet And uh, you know the more uh involved the better. Um, again, several of us are we're all volunteers at sovereign foundation I'm actually a trustee, but um, we have the full support of the sovereign trustees. They just met last week and we're very enthusiastic about Um, you know this this contribution and relationship with hyper ledger Right, but I I think what I'm sort of asking for though is to have some specificity in the proposal that specifically describes how There's a there's a how to section and the efforts and resources and I think you know, there's mention of these working groups that talks about Um, uh, you know the ledger and the agent and the trust framework It are those working groups specifically Coordinating the development of the sub projects of indy slash every name that are um, uh That that should come over into hyper ledger so that the technical community that's building them can do that and That there's another group and sovereign that's providing input into the set of requirements and so forth I just think that that needs to be mapped out so that we can Make an informed decision and and and or you know to tweak that as needed To Working groups that we have right now We've been trying to have as few working groups as are necessary So we have a working group that we call the ledger working group that handles the aspects related to the nodes and running of The node network and then we have a group that we call the agent working group that handles the off ledger portions of the system We have All of our tasks and tickets right now are being managed out of Jira at evernim and one of the things that we're excited for is the idea of moving those out into the open and making all That more accessible and more public And then um, I would expect that we would manage the workload for those different sub projects Much the same way it's man being managed at fabric right now I think we have some things to learn about how we want to do that to help drive community participation And certainly that's actually one of our motivations for joining the hyper ledger umbrella Is we we expect that some of the support infrastructure that's available with hyper ledger will help significantly with that As well as we have some things that we need to learn about trying to make sure that those processes are sufficiently open There's not any resources right now that are hidden Most of the discussion about what the requirements are and what we're what everyone in the community is trying to accomplish Right now it's done in those working group calls So you're certainly welcome to join and participate there and We're hoping to make that process more transparent and More accessible to everyone So chris where this is uh drone actually more I think about it. You've highlighted something that We listed in there the working groups that we're going on right now. So we were basically saying here's all of Here's the code and here's how we've been working on it You're correct that the proposal didn't turn around and say and here's how we propose this should work When everything is in, you know, what working groups should transition to become hyper ledger working groups, right? right And and so I I think that's a very good point and I think we'd be super happy I don't think it would take very long If whatever subset of folks if we can identify right here in the call, who should we work with to basically say All right, what's the best way for this work? I mean obviously with brian, but is it with yourself? I mean we've certainly thought we were now very active in the identity working group um, and it's interesting vipin because uh, the identity working group is has not had You know so far to my knowledge a ledger that was specifically about identity. So it sort of gives a an additional Weight or focus to the identity working group within hyper ledger But in any case whatever set of folks you think should work with us we can Get together figure out how that should best work and then update the proposal to reflect that um, do any of you have any Ideas or comment quick comments on that in terms of how that's being managed either in fabric or in Sawtooth lake in terms of what the difference between a working group and a project would be Well for the for the most part. I mean the working groups that we've had that I would I guess you would consider to be formal working groups would be like we had an sdk working group for fabric that is really more of a Uh It's part of a sub project. I mean there's all these sdk projects and there was a coordination mechanism Between them and they ended up writing a spec to ensure that all sdk sort of had the same Capabilities, um, even though they're you know different languages and different implementation Frameworks and so forth and so um And I and I think you know for the most part the working groups are more of a meta thing for the most part than Specific to a project and the projects You know the way that they coordinated through mailing lists and you know the the rocket chat and and an occasional call um And and again, you know, brian we've gone through you know And and tried to sort of transition from Being focused on telephone calls to one where we're a little bit more focused on getting things done through um asynchronous mechanisms like the mailing list and and or chat Um, so that people can engage when they can engage um and And and and again to make it all you know sort of you know fully transparent and recorded so that You know we can also you know engage people around the globe that aren't able to Participate in phone calls simply because it's it's one in the morning or something That makes sense. Um, in fact Our working groups right now do a lot of their coordination on the sovereign forum And I expect the transitioning most of mailing lists would be a really good idea. Yeah, and then uh I think getting the tickets right now that uh The cataloging that we've done internally out into the public JIRA repository will help with that And then we do most of our coordination right now on the slack channel for the asynchronous communications So I think that that that feels really good Um, we may want to propose a couple of the working groups that are at sovereign right now as working groups underneath indy Um, but I think we we might want to play that by ear for the next while It sounded like The way that I heard you describe the the working groups it sounded more around the operational aspects of The ledger or the you know the client the agent or the trust framework and less about here's what we're going to develop Although maybe the trust framework is a little bit more of that but if we could transition the parts that sort of pertain to the active coordination of what code is going in and not going in and And what are the priorities and so forth for the project here in hyper ledger To hyper ledger itself and coordinating with the identity working group and so forth But have all the you know Issues go into JIRA have the code in uh, you know the hyper ledger github organization Or garret again depending on how you want to do your reviews and to transition mailing lists that are specific and pertinent to the discussion of How this you know, uh, coordinating what we're doing there and creating the appropriate channels and rocket chat that You know again, so it's essentially Lifting and shifting if you will the parts of what is going on in sovereign now that coordinates about what india's And moving that to hybrid if we can just identify what those things are I think that And brian, you know, you you know, you feel free to to weigh in on this and david as well um, you know as as as to You know, how do how do we sort of you know get these things and then I do think that there probably does need to be some um, you know some form of description of how we envisage going forward that sovereign and hyper ledger As pertains to identity will continue to to operate Chris um, I I know where you're coming from. I just don't want to overload this sovereign should be thought of as just another um consumer of the technology right And have the same kind of relationship Well, I mean they're a member of they joined But the same kind of relationship is any vendor would or any other user of the technology would Certainly they're putting There are people with Kind of a sovereign name badge putting effort in the project and we want the project to be multi vendor But um, there's every I fully expect that that team will Know how to separate the development and management of the sovereign trust chain Using indy technologies from the development of indy as a common platform for other people doing the same thing Um, there's no reason to treat them. I think differently or especially in this regard Yeah, and I agree with both the comments that chris made and that uh, brian just added It's just a matter of enumerating how we want to break it down into the rocket chat channels and and mailing lists um I don't think that that um, it is at all a showstopper and I think that that will be a fairly straightforward thing With what we have going on. Um, okay, I can call out with more detail what each of those working groups is currently working on um, I I think maybe the titles are a bit ambiguous, but they do have some very Specific requirements that they're working through and and some deliverables in terms of what it is that they're each trying to to accomplish right now So I think that that's a fairly straightforward process I don't think that that doesn't seem like a stopper at all. Why not? Okay Hi, this is Lennyk. Yeah, I mean, this is all wonderful and so chris I think and what I've heard from everyone um, it's great Uh, we have a project like indy being incubated Didn't have a letter Um, I guess it's it's not an incubated project yet. It's a proposal for the day with it So it seems like definitely we have to Clarify what all the requirements for incubate of a project of this nature with hyper ledger because there are aspects That we need to focus on In terms of say accountability Decision and and I say decision is a broad statement which will cover requirements reported shared responsibility How do you make changes to the core base if the sovereign team In a sort of high to the zone domain have requirements for changes. These are the Um, the maintainers within the hyper ledger for the same code base. So will it be shared? Will it eventually diverge into something called basis? These are some of the things we need to grab this right now to ensure we have a clear understanding between the two parties and I mean the sovereign campaign On your name and team and anyone who gets incubated in the hyper ledger to maintain and the same code base or Different code spaces or those So change management is going to be very critical going forward and we are going to have the projects of the same nature So yes, although we think it may be simple, but I think we need to look at everything So we can dot eyes or costly make it very clear In terms of how the chain of responsibilities and accountability Will be maintained for a project of this nature, which seems to be a very wonderful expansion for hyper ledger to have This sort of identity component But we need to make sure it's clear to everyone so everybody understands the responsibilities And how they are shared and count 20. That's all I'd like to say Thank you, Leonard. Um, we have a lot of those resources for calling out what direction we're trying to take the code And tickets and some a lot of resources internally, especially in terms of documentation and design documents Something that we often call a plan of attack in terms of how we're accomplishing a new requirement or a new feature Some of those are not very transparent to a newcomer And I'm hoping that moving to hyper ledger will help give us some resources to make that more transparent And then also if we normalize some of those processes relative to what some of the other projects are doing I think it will also help perhaps some of the cross pollination of ideas So this is trauma. What uh, I this is all excellent input. Um, what are your specific What what are the suggestion for the the the tsc about how we should move forward the specific areas that we should Try and revise the proposal to add clarity Should we have a dedicated call about it? What are you suggesting? Well, Brian, we can have a vote and if the tsc is comfortable with sort of just dealing with this as Sort of the normal projects, you know, how do we set ourselves up? I think that's fine. Um again, I was I was just concerned because it just sounded to me like a lot of the Um sausage was being made someplace else. But if if that's not the case, then that's fine I I think everyone is committed to making sausage in public Um at the appropriate place That's my sense and I if we're not up there yet, then we Should have another conversation for a week. These are important issues to work out. No doubt. Um, and I I Perhaps i'm coloring this with the fact that I do know these individuals well and feel like They are on the side of right On all the same things we're aligned with But it's I know that they learning curve and a relation curve. I've already climbed and others haven't And we should absolutely make this based on the the um, the the statements made and and kind of common consensus as well So don't want to rush it But I I feel like um, I I feel like every every one of these is something that we can and should be addressing as a normal part of Building the project Well, let me ask this before we take a vote. Let me ask our Our members of the tc are any of the members of the tc that still have Questions or would like to see more clarity refinement or are we ready for a vote so anybody who has remaining concerns or remaining questions, uh, and wants to see more You know specificity on this aspect or other aspects Please speak now or forever hold your peace and then if we don't hear anybody Then I guess we can ask Todd to take a vote This is Dan. I don't have concerns. There's one in one clarification Could you say again the the uh definitions for indy and plenum? So I think I've heard Plenum used to describe the the ledger and the consensus mechanism and Maybe something that was going to be left behind and indy would be the things coming forward So if you just kind of clear that up for me, that'd be great Sure, this is jason Plenum is uh, we we built plenum separate from sovereign um from the beginning because There were clearly requirements that were general ledger requirements and general consensus requirements and you know, it felt like There's actually quite a an opportunity for domain specific ledgers using plenum There's a lot of innovation happening. Obviously a lot of innovation happening around consensus protocols and ledger technologies in hyper ledger project And that's not where we want to focus a lot of our energies We want to focus on identity and so the expectation is that At some point in the in the future there will be a Either enhancement concerted effort to enhance a plenum or A ship to something else. So calling it the indy consensus Um when when the indy project is not Long-term dependent on plenum felt like Going too far and so keeping them separate to kind of differentiate Where things are really dependent and whether or not was the idea behind separating the name So to add maybe one more comment to that The intention is to bring plenum with indy into the hyper ledger project and have all of them inside of hyper ledger And then we're making careful effort to call out That um plenum is an area where we expect convergence between different hyper ledger projects over time Is that a ledger or plenum as consensus? So plenum is separated into two chunks. We have the consensus protocol and then we have the ledger So it sounds like we have to separate these areas of responsibility under different components That will make a tight ledger as opposed to a remain in some way so that we all understand accountability and all the different responsibilities And it's a very good move that I think we need to prioritize policy and show there's that clarity and transparency of this whole thing Okay, yeah There are a few sub components there. Um, so I know it'll take some time before folks are familiar with and comfortable with kind of how it's decomposed But I think it's sufficient to say that um plenum right now is the let is the ledger piece that indy uses um And it consists of both the consensus algorithm and the ledger and we're intending on bringing everything all the code that is currently Um, do identity. We're bringing all of that code into hyper ledger not some of it Okay, thanks. Oh, so I I would prefer to see that that this project indy project Is a proposal for identity As an identity project that does not depend on any ledger underneath that it seemed to me that you know, the the architecture is that way but You know, probably the the dependent on plenum is now built into some of the components So I would prefer to separate it out into two different project proposal Plenum as a separate project Uh, so that it played the role as you know, the the blockchain ledger or or blockchain technology as part of the core hyper ledger project And then identity as another top level project that is independent That built in such a way that it's independent of a plenum so that it gives out a project like hyper ledger fabric or sawtooth lake um An equal and fair chance of being able to integrate and make use of indy The same way as is he being integrated with plenum my I This goes back to I identity as a service that we can all use Or an identity or identity as a capability we can build in and support on um, you know, what I see the proposal is right now is Step one is give us an identity service that we can all use It's a separate distinct identity service that we could all use it happens to be built on distributed ledger But it has some really interesting features that will allow us to express much more um Identity specific policies and the transactions and and semantics that we have That's step one breaking it out into independent capabilities can be incorporated into me as a later activity Yeah, this is Dave. I I would second that That idea When we get to step two, I smell a really great opportunity to start having a I don't know move moving forward the interoperability conversation. That's already taken place Um And it will give us an opportunity to like tackle an actual implementation of can we make indy run on top of Sawtooth lick. I think that would be a really interesting project to entertain Well, but but that means to me that we are building an application now, right? India is an application Even though yes. Yes. I mean identity is important for a hyper ledger project But indy itself is an application in my mind on top of a ledger technology um, so if we say that our our core mission Is to support projects that is building uh ledger Right like such as such as sawtooth lick such as fabric such as uh, you're all half Um, then then this project doesn't fit that core mission This project to me is an application so I would have to that venus I could see the um need to have Identity system be decentralized. So if there was some way to integrate Um, you know, if this was if this was a platform in which that could be achieved I would be highly interested in that Indeed and if I say this let me put the architecture becomes an override and set of importance there to ensure that The components fit for identity Within all the different Yeah, so really there are a few things that need to be best part of which is architecture architectural solutions and the approach going forward to make it a successful about same marriage between indy and our Okay, in in the interest of time, uh, kind of uh, re-up brian's call for a vote Any remaining concerns? If not, we have two minutes probably time for a vote. All right, Todd. All right, running through, uh, ben Uh, I think I need more time on on this. So I'm up staying at this point Okay, uh chris Yeah Dan Yes, greg Yes heart Yes, mic Yes, morali Yes, richard Yes, tamash Yes, all right, that's eight four one abstain that passes Thank you. And and ben I do believe your concern is valid and we should find ways to make sure that this can be an overlay and work with Um, uh, all of the different dlt engines out there and my when we talked about this at the hack fest Uh, a couple weeks ago. I sense that was a sincere focus of the Uh developers proposing this as well. So, um, uh, your your concerns are heard loud and clear This is drumman here. We are just really thrilled. Um, to Um, you know to be to be part of this, uh, we I want to say we found everything About our interaction with hyper ledger from the very start. Um, and brian's reception to be Fantastic, uh, nathan and I the last hack fest was a real pleasure. So we're just really really Excited and passionate to move forward with everyone with this and We look forward to just you know integrating as fast as we can Uh, it's it's thank you for the timing. We're literally going to go over to the hyper ledger I mean to our own ledger working group and go guess what? We're going to try to be transitioning all that over so thank you very much, please Excuse the fact that we need to drop now ourselves. Um, but I'm really excited to do this and vip and we'll obviously work with you on You know, how we'll Be integrating further with the identity work Okay, dope. Thanks drumman. Thanks nathan and team and We're at the top of the hour. So unfortunately we didn't get to The other two agenda items Um And you know what tomosh, um, if you can join the call early next week, then I think we'll put you first and then second we'll have the the other um project proposal Again that way we aren't just bumping everybody week after week. So, um Thanks everyone and we'll talk to you all soon Have a good day everyone I really appreciate it