 We seem to have pretty much filled the room and it's time to get started. Welcome everybody. I'm Cliff Lynch and I'll be introducing this session. Thank you for joining us on the first of the in-person project briefings for the spring 2021 CNI virtual member meeting. Let me just mention a few things very briefly before we get started. We are relying this spring much more heavily than last December on pre-recorded project briefings and we have released as of today a significant collection, a very rich collection of pre-recorded project briefings. I invite you to explore those as your time permits. We will be doing synchronous project briefings throughout this week and next week we will do the plenary days for the meeting. I want to just remind you about a couple of things that you probably are very tired of hearing about but just in case we are recording the session. It will as with pretty much everything else be available publicly after the meeting. There is a live transcript if you want to avail yourselves of that. There is a chat and you are welcome to use that. There is also a Q&A tool. We will take questions towards the end of the presentation but please feel free to queue up questions as you go along using either the Q&A tool or the chat. At the end of the session Diane Golden-Berghardt from CNI will help to manage the Q&A. I think that is all the mechanical kinds of things I wanted to mention. So let me just very briefly introduce our speakers and our topic. There is a project that has been forming for a while about a virtual copyright education center. Today we are going to talk about the aspirations for that program. This has been a partnership that has involved lyricists, Columbia University and a number of other experts. Speaking of experts, you will not be surprised if you are a CNI attendee of long standing to find one of them is Melissa Levine from the University of Michigan who has shared her expertise with us many times over the years. Erin Tripp from lyricists will lead off the presentation. Erin is their director of research innovation and I also want to introduce Rina Panhaloni from Columbia University. She is the director of the copyright advisory service there and with that I just welcome you all to the spring CNI meeting. I thank our presenters very much and I'm going to turn it over to Erin and disappear. Thank you very much Cliff and welcome everyone to our session about the virtual copyright education center today is March 15th and we're very happy to be here with you. I'm sharing a link to our slides in the chat for anyone who's just joined and again my name is Erin Tripp. I'm director of the research and innovation division at lyricists and I'm joining from Moncton New Brunswick in Canada on the east coast. If you want to share in the chat where you're joining from we would be very happy to learn that about you and you can do that while I'm introducing Melissa and Rina. So it's my pleasure to introduce Rina Elster Panhaloni. Rina is the director of copyright advisory services at Columbia University in New York City and her career has touched many organizations such as the Canadian Department of Justice, Library and Archives Canada, the Tate in London, and the Modern and Museum of Modern Art in NYC. Rina is the chair of the advisory group overseeing the Virtual Copyright Education Center pilot that we're here to speak about. It's also my pleasure to introduce Melissa Smith-Lovine. Melissa directs the copyright office at the University of Michigan Library. In addition she provides policy and planning expertise to the campus community and to the Hathi Trust Digital Library. She works closely with the campus community to develop responsible approaches to copyright that support transformative learning experiences. Her professional experience spans museums, archives and libraries and Melissa is the vice chair of the Virtual Copyright Education Center advisory group. Welcome Rina and Melissa and as I mentioned I'm Erin Tripp and my career spans libraries, stewarding open-source software, project management and business development. I'm an ex-officio member of the Virtual Copyright Education Center advisory group and I'm hosting the pilot project at Lyrisis and my role in the project is primarily focused on business planning and sustainability for the center. Now we see a number of people joining from Michigan, from Ann Arbor, from New Haven, Connecticut, from Pennsylvania and Philadelphia. We have people from Indiana, San Francisco, from Boulder, Colorado, New Mexico, another few others from Indiana, some people from Honolulu, Hawaii and California. Thank you so much for joining everyone. I'm so glad to see you here. Now before we get started I'd just like to point everyone to our code of conduct for the session. We're going to strive to engage in respectful discussion. We want to ask questions and seek clarification and be receptive to feedback. We also want to follow the CNI code of conduct it's linked here on the screen and I will put a link in the chat as well and I'm going to make a request. We know everyone is very busy but if possible please close your email inbox and instant message applications during this session. I know that's a tough request. We want to bring you along with us through the content and have a discussion at the end. Our presentation today has four main sections. Rina is going to speak about the need for copyright education including what's changed and what hasn't. Melissa will speak about our current virtual copyright education center pilot project and what we're learning. This is right now we're in the middle of it and I will speak about leveraging nonprofit innovation infrastructure to make the pilot happen and how we're thinking about scaling and sustainability in the process. Now at the end we're going to close the session with the results of a poll and also a discussion with you all and so with that I'd like to hand things over to Rina to discuss the need for copyright education. Rina. Thanks Erin. Thanks for the introduction and welcome everyone. The truth is that Melissa Levine and I have been working on issues connected to copyright education and policy development for libraries archives and museums for for admittedly more than 25 years and throughout North America. You may recall the copyright in the digital world series some 15 years ago where we had a consistent faculty representing all sectors of the cultural heritage community. It was in fact coordinated by Tom Clairson a long-standing colleague of mine who was then at OCLC and who is now a senior consultant with Lyrisis and in fact part of Erin Tripp's team. Therefore this initiative is a collaboration between Lyrisis and my office at Columbia University and it's no accident. We always knew we needed to pick up the pieces from that original initiative some 15 years ago and examine what was possible and what was sustainable. Next slide please. In 2017 my office obtained an inaugural Lyrisis Catalyst Fund grant to run an environmental scan upon copyright education for professionals working in the libraries, archives and museums sector and in fact the findings were quite remarkable. They indicated that we seem to be teaching the same basic what is copyright kind of course over and over again. Sometimes recommending strategic use of copyright information generationally even. Despite developments in case law or even in technology and as time evolved educational opportunities across libraries, archives and museums in fact became so siloed that we were not collaborating or sharing knowledge, expertise, strategies and approaches as much as we could or in fact we should. This is despite the fact that many of the rights issues we tackle are similar. The study concluded in 2018 that we needed to develop an online virtual community of practice and at that that the time had come to harness online teaching tools and platforms in order to deliver. Next slide. Questions. Big ones however remained. In 2019 we obtained or my office obtained an Alfred P. Sloan Foundation grant that funded a two-day facilitated round table meeting at Columbia University Libraries with partners Ithaca SNR and Larissus to discuss the the outstanding issues with copyright experts from all three sectors of the cultural heritage community and it was determined that copyright educators working in silos or individually were at their maximum capacity. They needed support. In fact several discussed a significant burnout factor. As copyright educators we needed to leverage each other's expertise and audience to build copyright capacity in a meaningful way for the cultural heritage sector. As a community we recognized the need to become proactive and use copyright to our advantage but we needed the knowledge how to do it. Next slide. Ithaca SNR published a report of our round table discussions in January of 2020 and then the pandemic hit and we all went remote and within a matter of days. For those of us working in copyright issues in libraries archives and museums it was like a tsunami. Copyright education and information was essential and of immediate need. We could not wait for another round of study or funding and we knew we had to deliver within our abilities and means quickly. For this reason my office at Columbia University Libraries and Larissus formed a collaborative venture to deliver an online education pilot and to invest in business planning so that we may understand how to make copyright education sustainable. The bottom line is that the pandemic has magnified our reliance upon online communication in a way that will likely not revert to pre-pandemic levels and in order for our community to harness potential and engage in contemporary knowledge exchange. Assessing materials as being in the copyright era or its fair use so I think it's okay is now recognized as perhaps insufficient. We have to mine our collections to unhide them, provide access to them, share them to the extent possible and to achieve this result we have to provide copyright education to empower our staff working in the cultural heritage sector to use it as a tool to increase access. Next slide. So here is our poll question and I believe Erin is going to place the link to the poll in the chat and we'd really love to hear your response to this question since it is very much part of the sustainability issue and the question is right now does your institution continue to fund professional development? Next slide. So now I'm going to hand things off to Melissa who will speak about our current pilot project. Melissa. Thank you, Reena. So we launched our pilot in September of 2020 in collaboration with Columbia University Libraries, Copyright Advisory Office and Lyricist and our pilot will continue through June of 2021 of this year. So our highlights for the pilot include five new online copyright education classes that will be available through Lyricist Learning, a basic copyright course that I co-taught with Heather Breston of UCLA recently that will be made that is being made free of charge and is distributed publicly. We are providing advanced classes that will be distributed also through Lyricist Learning and the Lyricist Online Continuing Education Platform for Libraries and Knowledge Professionals will apply. And Lyricist is working with us as an advisory group of dare I say world-class experts to guide the pedagogy in the business planning. So including Reena and myself. Our advisory group includes Mika G. Conway who was formerly at the Getty and is now at the National Gallery of Art. Carla Myers is the coordinator of scholarly communications at Miami University Libraries. Cal Courtney who's a copyrighted advisor at Harvard. Sharon Farb who's the associate university librarian for distinctive collections and chief policy strategist at UCLA's libraries. And Dave Hansen who is the associate university librarian for research, collections, and scholarly communication and lead copyright and information policy officer at Duke's libraries. You can advance the slide. You can see here generally in our initial planning as an advisory group we started to we did brainstorming exercises and some key themes arose as areas of focus for our teaching. So you can see practical applications the public domain limitations and exceptions contracts fair use and what advanced policy which is sort of all these things in application and my sort of personal favorite contracts I think I mentioned and copyright adjacent. So these are things that are that kind of get bundled with copyright but they're a little bit different like ethics or privacy. Next slide. Today we've held two of the five classes. So the copyright 101 is publicly available. That's the one I presented with Heather. And we have presented no fear use practical and fair use practical fair use for cultural institutions which was taught last week by Kyle Portney and our colleague Sandra and Mel at Yale. Coming up next on the 24th we have copyright limitations and exceptions with Lisa Macklin and Ann Young. On April 14th we have when copyright ends or never was understanding the public domain. And the fifth in our series is copyright in action which Reno will teach with Sherry Chen. Next slide. So what we've learned we learned some things from our first two classes already the copyright 101 and the no fear fair use. We received some important data the registration numbers were higher than average so for paid classes with lyricists the registration was 90 percent higher for the virtual copyright education center classes than lyricists is tricky tongue twister there lyric side you know anyway regular paid classes based on their current data so that may adjust a bit and for free classes the registration was 85 percent higher for the copyright 101 free class than on lyricist's regular free classes. Erin is sharing a link to the free copyright 101 class and is in chat if you're interested in viewing that and I welcome your informal feedback to my email if you feel like. Okay let's go to the next slide thank you. So and these are some other preliminary results to a user survey for copyright 101 when posed with the question how likely are you to participate in a new virtual community centered on copyright in cultural heritage institutions. This means clued illicit of social media presence resources and toolkits 46 percent of survey respondents said they have a greater need for copyright training since the pandemic began. 53 percent which I find really quite interesting say that they have the same need as they had before the pandemic more than 64 percent of respondents felt that they are likely or very likely to participate in a new virtual community centered on copyright and cultural heritage institutions which may include illicit of social media presence and so forth. Next slide. We also want to reinforce that we are doing this collaboratively so we are looking at colleagues who are doing other kinds of copyright education so that we are doing something in a coordinated fashion rather than either duplicating or competing with each other in that ecosystem. So in that vein I want to mention several advisory members also have copyright education projects they've initiated. Dave Hansen is part of a group that's producing something called the library copyright institute which started as a face-to-face program in North Carolina last year which is shifting right now to an online format. Miami University of Ohio's copyright conference which has been hosted by Carla Myers for the last several years and Kyle Courtney's copyright first responders program which is he's been working on for quite some number of years. So we're hoping to complement and fill gaps rather than directly competing with these valuable initiatives. So with that I'm going to hand things back to Erin who will talk about how lyricist is involved. Thanks Melissa. Yeah so as Melissa said I'm just going to talk about how we're leveraging some nonprofit infrastructure that we're really building and testing for innovation at lyricists and so it's a process that really began a number of years ago around 2016 but has ramped up in the last year in particular. So Rena spoke about the Catalyst Fund grant that really ceded the idea the feasibility study for the copyright the virtual copyright education center and how you know Rena's office went on to get a subsequent Sloan grant and it was really all about validating the need getting data contextualizing it and then we needed to know what to do with it after that and so the Catalyst Fund has an interesting role in this project because it was created for this exact purpose. Let's prototype an idea start something in motion and if it's validated at a small scale it will build momentum or it won't in this case it has and so it's really about expanding opportunities it's really about sharing expertise which is very relevant I think of this about how to teach online in a virtual environment and also collaborating on innovations that have the potential to have community wide impact. So things that can scale beyond one institution things that can scale so that we're not burning out instructors asking them to do the exact same thing again and again and again and so our CEO Robert Miller who's on the call today he often says that we invest in pennies so that we can spend in dollars so it's all about validating at a small scale and then expanding. Over the past four years the Catalyst Fund has awarded more than half a million dollars in mini grants so these are just intended to test ideas and the average grant is around $27,000 to $30,000 and a lot of those projects have gone on to be awarded other matching funds from member institutions or grants that are federal or private from institutions like IMLS, NEH and Sloan. We're really trying to work to turn $1 into 10 or $1 into 100 and maximize the impact of seed funding and we have some stats up on the slide here we've had 177 applications to date that's including the current cycle and we have hundreds of reviewers and I want to thank them because their their role in this program is vital. Since the beginning of the project of the Catalyst Fund rather we've funded 22 proposals and like I said we've awarded more than half a million dollars. On this cycle we have $125,000 to award and the deadline was just mid-February and we have found that 50% of the applications in the current cycle have a diversity equity inclusion theme and 35% of them have an open source software theme which is really interesting. So I said that our initiatives have really ramped up in the last year and I think it's because we created this new division that's really focused on research and innovation. Given the pandemic it seemed really important time to invest in the infrastructure where new ideas can flourish because our landscape is changing rapidly and like Rena said we don't feel like many of the things that are changing will go back to pre-pandemic norms and so our new division it houses the Catalyst Fund our leader circle membership and our forums. It also houses lyricist learning which is our professional development platform which is really paired with this pilot project with our consulting team our research initiatives and also our granting staff and so it's really a hub for many components of our organizational innovation process and I think really the beginning of finding the connectedness in our innovation infrastructure and so we're trying to be poised to support innovation, innovation for our members, innovation for our staff and to do it we're doubling down on investments in scalable solutions. Of course we we've never done it alone we have wonderful relationships with our members they're the ones that are coming up with some fantastic ideas like Columbia University Libraries and we also have terrific partnerships with funders in our space. So for example in the last fiscal year we've been awarded six million dollars to move ideas forward and that was just this year since 2015 when you know really building our innovation infrastructure began since then we've been awarded more than 16 million dollars and in addition to grants funding lyricist is investing annually in innovation so there are programs that we want to see excel we want to build momentum behind them and so cumulatively we have invested more than 3.5 million dollars over the last five years and I really feel like it's positioning us as an organization that supports innovation like no other in our field. So like I mentioned at the beginning my role is really focused on business planning and sustainability planning and so for the Virtual Copyright Education Center we're applying a framework that was developed at lyricist with the support of IMLS called It Takes a Village. Now my colleagues Laurie Arp and Megan Forbes have been at the forefront of this project and this framework and it's really designed to examine how resources both fiscal and human governance technology and community engagement can bridge the gap between pilot and scaling a production ready program. So as part of this pilot we're working on creating expense and revenue projections we're prototyping a governance model we're testing and sharing technology infrastructure and so this is sharing infrastructure with lyricist learning they provide online professional development anyway why not share the technology the online support staff or tech support staff and use sessions the promotional channels things like that and also the expertise of teaching online you know this is how you develop an outline for a class this is how you script it this is how you engage during the class so all of that has been really important for creating efficiencies and sharing expertise and we're also testing community engagement methods and assessing possible partnerships as part of the ecosystem and the partnerships are really important because the feasibility study done in 2017 and the roundtable in 2019 they really underscored the need that we need to work with an existing ecosystem and not compete or duplicate and so partnerships are going to be a big part of what we put forward in our recommendations. Now what's really challenging about business planning for online training is that training in our field is often developed with a loss leader strategy that means it is never expected to break even from a budget perspective it's rather a benefit for membership or it's grant funded to be free and so that means that the average pricing for online training is really low and we also have really extreme budget sensitivity from our members because budgets are in an uncertain state right now. We also have a lot of competition in terms of online content. The landscape is thick with online tutorials, webinars, conferences and so we want to make sure that this initiative is sustainable given the new landscape. The good thing is that the preliminary data from our pilot is very promising like Melissa said we have 90 to 85 percent more registration for these classes than we do for our average classes. So next steps in the pilot they include debriefs on pilot classes we still have three more to deliver before the end of the pilot and we're learning something every time we run a class. We need to develop the revenue and expense projections that will be in the next month or so and those will inform a business plan for the initiative and we're going to wrap up in June 2021. So as this is the first formal pilot of the new research and innovation division this is really an assessment process for us as well. We want to know how we can improve and scale our pilot infrastructure for other ideas. So how can we apply processes like estimation frameworks, project management, how do we staff a pilot and other resources that we can lend to pilot projects like marketing and communications and so our goal is to select more ideas to move to pilot that come from our catalyst fund from partnerships staff and beyond and so with that I want to share the results of our poll. We'll see if I can successfully do this and then I'm going to hand things off to Rena. One moment can you see the poll? Okay great. So we had 26 responses to our poll of 47 attendees and 81 percent of respondents said that they do continue to fund professional development. Very interesting. Thank you all for participating in that. Rena. Thank you Erin. I am tasked with turning this webinar into a conversation. With all of you and so I'm going to ask Diane to give you the option of unmuting yourself so you could actually jump in and use your audio and ask us questions if you would prefer to make comments and it's easier to do that than having to write a question or a comment in the Q&A. But I'd also like to engage all of you at this point as well and we're really curious because we are collecting so much information at this pilot stage and we'd like to know from all of you what in fact brought you to this discussion today. Are there very specific issues that are burning issues within your respective institutions whether it is from a professional development standpoint from a copyright standpoint or a combination thereof that have really drawn you to this first presentation at CNI? So I'm giving folks permission to unmute themselves bear with me as I get through this list but please feel free to jump right in and join the conversation. Rena, I see Monica's and Cormick's hand is up. I'll just say quickly I really appreciate this opportunity. I'm joining this because I've invited my colleagues to sign up for these courses. I persuaded the leadership in my library to pay for lyricist learning so that we could all sign up for these courses. I have one librarian who does copyright education and I needed to scale and so this was an excellent well-priced opportunity for us to do that and what we're planning to do is then follow on these basic courses with some things that are much more specific to our context and hands-on training for particular individuals and parts of our organization. So for me it was just exactly the right thing we could have used it three years ago but we've got it now and we'll take it. Thanks Monica. Those are really encouraging words and I hear you about this whole issue concerning scalability and concerning the need having cropped up years previous. It's just what pushes us over that ledge, what is the tipping point and I think when all of us were scrambling around in the pandemic at the very beginning we started to realize more than ever that scale is really really important here because even in institutions that have someone like Melissa or have someone like me I'm an officer one at Columbia so how can I scale to deliver becomes incredibly important when you're just trying to flip a library into the online space in a huge way. Melissa do you have anything to add to that? I really value the approach of having this as a supplement for a given campus so we're trying to think about campuses that have no particular designated expertise but we're also trying to think of situations where there's someone who knows something and as Monica described being able to have people go through some set of foundations so everybody we're on a level playing field so to speak in terms of what we've been exposed to as a minimum and then tailoring to the particular situation we know that every campus and every library has its own kind of culture and its own decision making and its own local policies so those are as important in many cases as the scaffolding of the copyright education. I should also say that we structured the five classes so that the one of one of the things that we found as instructors is you start almost every class you're doing with a what ends up being a 90-minute copyright 101 and so by the time you've gotten through that and you're getting to fair use or whatever the specific topic is you've already gone through something over and over and what we're trying to do is allow you to have a 101 experience the first time and then spend the balance of your time on a more focused experience on a more specialized topic. Would anyone else like to add their thoughts? If I can just jump in here really quickly and someone has alerted us that when I allowed you to turn on your microphones evidently you received a message that said the host would like you to unmute so I just want to emphasize that this is entirely optional and you should feel free to go ahead and unmute yourselves and join the conversation or if you prefer to raise your hand that would be fine too. Maybe as we're waiting for folks to jump in I could pick up on something that Melissa said concerning the scaffolding of courses. We in fact had a bit of a time and Erin you can you can attest to this since you were leading the advisory board or advisory group through this in making determinations what would be best to offer in terms of education at at this initial pilot phase and there were what I believe are some really important bits and pieces that have to be offered if the pilot is successful in the next round and what I think is going to be very informative as we start to build out these curricula is actually hearing back from all of you based on the experiences that you've had over the course of the last 11 months what were the sort of burning issues that you felt that you could not overcome from a copyright perspective and where you actually did need advanced instruction to try and get your staff through and it will you know if we have if we can create sort of a feedback loop I think that would be extremely important for us scaling outwards. The the other issue about building these curricula was you know the fact that we needed to ensure that everyone's working with a baseline and that was why we made in fact the copyright 101 course public. Diane I see we do have a raised hand um Daniel you've got a question would you like to join us or put it in the chat or I can I can speak up um so I think that this is wonderful are from these courses and I guess the question for me is how do we how do you apply it you know so if someone goes through and they take these sessions you know how are they going to be able to build off that in their actual work so that what they've learned they can they can put into practice and I know Courtney Kyle Courtney at Harvard has created this copyright first responders program that's been replicated in a number of different schools but I would really be curious to hear from you all about how you're thinking about moving beyond training to engaging the staff that goes through this training and work. I think what was really quite revealing in that first 2017-2018 study was this notion that it was really important to create a community of practice in the online space. Harness technology to enable us to work collaboratively for the very reason that you just mentioned Daniel and it's the fact that you know when you you you take a class or take a course whether online or in person we're really lucky if our participants leave the course retaining about 30 percent and um that's you know you you think you you've figured it out you're in a workshop you leave and then all of a sudden in a real set of circumstances you've got to apply what you learned a couple weeks ago and it really is not that easy and and so we need to provide that support not just to the instructors but create a community of practice where there is a space to enable support for the practitioners the boots on the ground folks that actually have to solve these issues you know what we all do in for those of us who are in my position at Columbia you know we may hold office hours and it enables folks to come from across the university and the libraries to ask all sorts of questions to understand how to apply certain issues whether we create a kind of office hours environment within this community of practice whether we provide tools and tool kits which I think are pretty darn important um it remains to be seen how we build it out but it's not just the classes it's got to be the materials and it's got to be the support Erin I see you're shaking your head do you want to join the conversation yeah well we've we've talked a lot about how the cohort model is very popular right now and how um there are a number of copyright fellowship type programs and you know as part of this kind of landscape we've talked about okay could the virtual copyright education center classes form the basis or form the prerequisites for an additional kind of follow-up fellowship or participation in an online discussion forum um and Rena you mentioned like a repository of tool kits and other resources and so this pilot is very small in scope because we're trying to kind of test the base like the base idea and when you're piloting something you always want to reduce complexity wherever possible so that you can kind of test and validate the core concepts and then move on from there and so um the advisory group has been talking about how to put this knowledge into practice and what components of learning or teaching should be going into that and so our full recommendations are going to touch on some of those other components that haven't necessarily been part of the pilot to date but that we can continue to kind of expand and test as we move into like a production level program and I did see a couple of comments in the in the chat I know Mandy had a comment there Diane sure um so Mandy says I think what is most interesting for me is the approach to complementary offerings our library has within the past year formed a strong and responsive copyright working group this group models to our campus users and librarians the thought processes for working through copyright questions I'm interested in this pilot model for education and its ability to provide the needed foundation um and then she goes on to say the pandemic landed just as I was named a unit head for research services our copyright and scholarly communications librarian is the same person and our model for research services support is going to succeed only by following a model like your pilot has done so this is dovetailing with the thought processes I've been having about what our unit is and does as we move forward in supporting and educating our unit our users you know what I find it so interesting by that that comment to um our um how again we've been incredibly siloed in how we've been trying to tackle strategically these copyright issues within the broader cultural heritage community because in fact uh I know of museums who that have taken the committee approach to solving larger copyright issues um for many many years and um when uh you know we we can look at um colleagues of ours working in a different sector of a larger community and look at how they may be tackling these issues uh the compare and contrast starts to really enrich how we how we manage these issues ourselves and um uh you know the complementary issue and Erin you may want to add to this I think is going to be essential um there's no point in overshadowing great programmatic activity that currently exists because it that in in fact does exist um you heard about Kyle's Kyle Courtney's program copyright first responders uh and uh Dave Hanson's at Duke's um the library copyright institute you know we need to scale um we need to build and leverage and complement and that it requires a lot of gap analysis um to understand you know what is lacking both from a support perspective and what is lacking from a curricular perspective it does look like we have um another comment here I'll go ahead and read Monica's comment who says at the University of Delaware we are initially hoping to use these courses as a baseline slash prerequisites for more specific or advanced courses for some of our colleagues which include museums, a press, along with ILL, film, video, electronic reserves, and other standard library copyright concerns so for us the community of practice will initially be a local one I also just wanted to comment we um for anybody who's just joining us um we are turning on um we are enabling attendees microphones uh so that you can feel free to join the conversation but it is entirely optional you can also type your questions into the Q&A box share your comments or questions in the chat and we'll read them or share them aloud thank you I have a question for our uh participants and I'm curious to know if um any of you have taken a consortial approach to um tackling copyright questions and by that I mean are there I'm trying to unearth and determine whether there are smaller communities of practice that that are existing that we in fact might not even know about and wish to connect with what we're trying to do here again feel free to uh just jump right in and unmute yourselves or uh raise your hand or if you have any comments or other questions you can type them in the chat or the Q&A I'll add a provocation of sorts um one of the things that anecdotally I have observed is that there can be a great relationship with one's general counsel's office or a lot of tension uh there can be and so we are sensitive to those dynamics and at some point I personally would like to um do something that involves navigating that we're very interested in the applied aspects of this so we as a is a is a long-standing CNIR um I know that most of you are not intrinsically interested in copyright and that's okay um you're interested in accomplishing something else and so we are uh very aware of not falling in love with our own topic um and one of the things that I would love in our remaining few minutes or by email um are some ideas for the things that we may be missing in terms of pragmatics yes that dog I'm sorry about the dog um uh when the dog is in the dog wants to go out when the dog is out the dog wants to come in so anyway um I I want to underscore that we are focused on enough theoretical to make everything scaffold together and make sense but really on the problem solving and and um so thoughts on on those kinds of issues would be really welcome I see another comment from Mandy all right so Mandy says I'm not aware of any formal COPs around copyright in which my institution participates we have a fantastic partnership with our office of university council the relationship has opened up over time by this I mean that anyone can request time with the uc liaison which was not the case five to ten years ago so that's great thanks Mandy I'm just so impressed that your council has banned with because that's part of the problem certainly that we've experienced over time um it's not that they're unapproachable it's just simply they cannot manage the level of demand that may uh occur as uh our our staff become more and more knowledgeable about subject understanding that when they're working in the online space there may be copyright issues that um occur um even you know as an unintended consequence I think there's a Mandy I'd love you to unmute but we're gonna keep reading your thoughts I keep so I have a dog who may go bombastic at any moment so I've been really trying to protect everyone's ears so um our university council liaison for copyright is deeply interested in the work that we do and our licensing librarians that we've had over time have been our primary liaisons but as their work has flourished I think that they've done a lot of grooming and informal training for the rest of us in the library so that we understand what our internal channels are with respect to our copyright and licensing librarians and then when needed we can feel confident that somebody can be directed to our office of university council to our liaison to have those conversations so the university council liaison has partnered with us on programming over the years has been a panelist when we've done things around fair use um and is always so kind and gracious and he has a great sense of humor so he's engaging when we have him in and I think that all of those things have contributed to this opening up over time thanks thanks for those comments and thanks for unmuting yourself and your dog did really well um it it is uh I think um a reflection of what a great uh council library um relationship can be like um not um it is not always um the case um and um certainly uh within uh my own experience at columbia it's been a very positive relationship but again it is um one where I am one of several clients um that are demanding time um from our council and so we have to empower ourselves we have to have sufficient knowledge to get our work done and um for that reason it's a bit of a scaffolding exercise too um so that uh we have the sufficient requisite knowledge to get our day to day work done and it is only the really big stuff that ends up on council's plate I don't know Melissa if you want to comment um with respect to your own experience um but it's interesting because it's very much part and parcel of what we're trying to build here I would I would agree um I am we do have a good relationship with our general council and I've worked at the Smithsonian and at the Library of Congress in legal roles that were not part of the general council's office and it was extremely important to build um trust and common understanding about how we were approaching problems or questions so that frankly this is sort of one thing that they didn't really need to worry about because I do believe that many of the day to day decisions can and should be made by the people involved in the work um it also lets us as practitioners know when we really do need to be talking to the general council as council for the organization um when uh when there may be significant risk that the university may be undertaking because of a project and it may be perfectly appropriate you just don't want to surprise them um uh I think there's tremendous efficiency I mean I I do have a team of myself and now three other people and we do have that volume of work not every organization has that need or maybe they do and it's not it's not invested in the same way um I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all in terms of of this but I do think the general dynamics between a library on a campus and their their relationship with their general council have us a lot of common themes I see we only have a couple of minutes left I actually have a question for Erin um I'm curious to know Erin in in have we been tracking um whether or not we've what breadth and scope of participants we're getting because I think it's going to be very different for various institutions and whether we even attract council for example in front to determine what we're doing yeah we sent out a survey after every class um whether it's part of this pilot or not and one of the standard questions is please rate your knowledge before the class and after the class and so we are able to tell um you know which participants in those classes feel like they already have a fairly advanced level of knowledge or not and whether it increases after they've gone through the class and so we try to encourage people to fill out that survey survey by saying you'll get a certificate of participation if you fill this out for having you know completed the class so we do get a fair amount of responses so that we can analyze um and code that type of data do we have any one last question we have two minutes left it looks like we have another uh comment from Mandy who says I think another aspect that's been important has been the attempt to change the silo effect in relation to copyright from it's the copyright librarian or the uc's job to its our job to know about copyright and how to navigate those fundamentals within our institution's context thank you Mandy I don't see any more questions or comments coming in right now and seeing as how we are quickly approaching the hour I want to thank our our panelists for this really interesting talk and very engaging conversation it's been really wonderful to hear what people have to say and read your comments so thank you all very much and I just want to invite everyone to stick around if you want to continue the conversation I'm going to turn off the recording now so if you'd like to approach the podium and have a chat with our speakers we do have a few minutes before our next session so we do have a little time to hang around here and chat with you so with that I will wish everyone a good rest of your day I hope we'll see you back here at CNI in a half hour or so but otherwise we look forward to seeing you at other sessions soon take care everyone