 We're ready Good morning morning everybody we're usually quite excited, aren't we? We've got our waffle t-shirts on today now We're not going to tell people what's happening in the waffle in the behind-the-scenes in waffle world, but we That's been why you've been very excited. It will become clear once we've got two waffles in the can Haven't we and they are amazing canned waffles who'd have thought it. Yep. It's gonna be brilliant It is but we will say no more. No, no more about it today. So I'm Jane you're Chris. I'm Chris Morrison I work at the University of Kent and you are for the next month for the next month Yeah, and a bit little bit and I'm Jane Zekker and I work at City University and we're the cool SIG co-chairs So what's also what does that stand for copyright online learning? That's all what the special interest group, but so can people We do So it's going out next week. It's going out. Okay, so maybe we could have a link to the cool SIG Somewhere somebody out there. You must have a link to the Somebody a part of our group with the whole gang of us. Yes, let's get cracking. What we've got Okay So we've got a load of copyright news some good stuff We won't say it now because we will go through it as we come but the today's session We've been really looking forward to for a long time because we have Roxanne and Eleanor joining us from University of Arts, London And they're doing some really cool stuff And it's really it's Topics and they'll be talking about it comes up all the time about students particularly design art students Absolutely how they deal with copyright issues and and what what what they've been doing is is really innovative. Yeah, I'm really great So really looking forward to that. Absolutely. Yeah, but without further ado without further ado So we can not hog the stage for much longer. Okay, we better get on without no hogging, right? Let's go to yeah, let's go to the first bit. So this is a room. Oh, since we last met what's been happening So well quite a lot of things actually quite a lot of things we didn't want to talk about yet because the We wouldn't talk about that. Okay. Where have you been? I've been I Was that big the ratchet camera? I have actually been to Oxford and I have visited The the news last week was that I am leaving University of Kent I will be starting as the copyright and licensing specialist at Bodleian libraries at the end of April my start date is the 25th of April, but I actually for the first time the weekend before last actually went up and actually That's not me. No, I don't think where hi vis I don't think hi vis tweed works. No, well We'll have to we'll have to see how that goes. Yeah, we can get a highly reflective 21st century So, yeah, I did that and I met up with Ruth Malaloo who's my new boss and well known to this parish. I don't know if you're there today, Ruth But anyway, it's so exciting. I'm going to stop talking about it now and hand over to you. So what have you been up to? I've been doing a lot of work for charity. Yeah. No, I didn't I did a 10k I did I don't I don't know I did a 10k run with my running club on Sunday And all the money that we when we entered the race all went to The the Ukrainian crisis. So we're gonna come back to that topic, but I'm really quite pleased actually with my running as well You're doing really well. I was motivated very well for an old lady. You're doing pretty good. I'm just moving on from that. Okay So we've actually updated this slide Eventually the first time in two years. Yeah So it we have got the full archive of all the blackboard collaborate links So you can see the full thing with all the chat and experience it as if you were part of the webinar But we've also now got thank you very much to Christina Vines who's been Plugging these into YouTube taking the recordings and it's now on the Alps Copyright and online learning SIG YouTube playlist so you actually can see all of these as they come up I just popped a link into the chat Once it's on YouTube is a bit it kind of become we'll get all the takedown See what we include in the content So that's there. Okay Right ready? I think we're oh hang on. Yeah Yes, absolutely Let's go Okay, so the first item of news Catherine is actually pointing out that there are reflective tweed jackets You're gonna check those out later I need that Catherine send me that link There it is. Okay. Let's not look at it now. No, let's remind huge distraction. Yeah a reminder of fair dealy We was an absolute Thundering rip roaring success wasn't it? It was great. It was really good exhausting It's gonna be even better next next year. We did say to everyone. Hey, let's do this thing We don't necessarily have to be involved in everything, but let's get the idea going We couldn't help getting involved in everything and it was marvellous to be to be involved But to see such a bit so you can see the different recordings are up there All those events that happened show really different aspects of how they're dealing impacts on on different areas And it was definitely and we yes some really great sessions the session where we the Kent session where we had the discussion at The end with Ben Marsh was a lot of fun So if anyone's interested in parody songs and how that works. Yeah, it's something we hadn't ever thought about before had we No, no, no, no, okay. So next item up on our list some of you have probably already seen this but Emily Hudson emailed this copy see I think a couple of weeks ago with this but she's updated her guidance for Using films audio visual works and images in online teaching So it's on the SSRN site as a sort of pre-print paper I'll pop the link into the chat for those of you who haven't seen it But you can get these links out of the slides later on this afternoon as well if you want them But really good to see that guidance which has obviously been really important for those of us who are Our teaching using audio visual material I mean who isn't really to be honest, but particularly images as well. So it's not just covering film And so she's got some great guidance Okay, okay, next up Chris. Oh, yeah, so the ABC conference is the Canadian Copywriting Education and Research and Libraries Conference been running for a number of years and they do have some Proposals out and they are running it with online Hybrid format so you can put in it's a pretty tight deadline. Isn't it the 15? No, I think it's I think it's actually the 13th I think it's Sunday. Okay. So that's my week. That's my weekend gone. Anybody will be putting in a proposal We want to just hey what's going on over here, but yeah anyone else that wants to to Put something in for that it's there. Yeah, I think I think it's going to be I mean I suspect that a lot of the online stuff. I think it'll be free to participate I think there are places for a hundred people to go. It's in London, Ontario So it's a bit of a trek actually. So you may want to think about if you want to participate Doing that remotely so as travel still a bit more tricky Okay, next up was a fascinating case That was picked up actually By Sandy Dukchak originally from who's at the Institute of Advanced Legal Studies who we ran the fair dealing week event with But it appealed to me particularly about these only fools and horses evening Events the cushy dining events because my mum had just been on one And she can go on and on and on about it and it hadn't really occurred to me that this wouldn't have been done under some sort of licensed activity actually But yeah, if you didn't see the story Chris has put the link in to the Guardian story that they they actually ended up in court and It's basically sort of saying, you know, I think it's it's it's quite a sort of landmark case because it's it's about use of Parody and pastiche that we haven't had in the UK. I mean there are there have been cases I'm thinking about there's a US case about a Seinfeld board game that was worth it They use or not it wasn't official and licensed. I think it would be similar arguments coming out So we're gonna do a kind of parody copyright like webinar In an only fools and horses team. Do you think which which character do you want to play? Marley Let's carry on Next up, I think Are you gonna talk about it? Yeah, I mean this came out. This was in February that this news about research gates and Elsevier and American Chemical Society it's around the articles that are held on the research site and This nature is the article is the latest one to discuss it and It's it's still an ongoing thing to pick through what's come out of it As with these court cases, there's really a clear definitive This is this is what happens when people share things through To me like a line out of the publishing trap. Yeah. Yeah, they basically it is clear that research gates are to there is liability for Having that content on there, but it's raised a number of questions around do If there's a joint authored work does the corresponding author have the right to then Represent all the authors on it. So it'd be one to watch and so I would say read that and and Yeah, yeah, that's thought we'd raise that because that's clearly an important area to keep an eye on. Yeah Yeah, and the final one we don't want to dwell too much on this We know that this is really difficult and you know, we're all looking at what's happening in the world today And and a very sad and by by what's happening with what we pick up a couple of things the first piece here Eiffel and in fact Irina Kuchma who works for Eiffel is currently She's Ukrainian. She's in there. She's not far from Kyiv. She's staying with her family there And she's written this piece talking about what libraries are doing how they're trying to support their communities both Physically as keep this place as they can go as well as the work to try to keep communications going Yeah, keep their cultural life on going and and you know, we met it really did when we went to Kyrgyzstan Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, when when I saw her following on Twitter really really Brings it home when it's also someone you've met and you know really well and they're putting tweets of that kind of Neighborhood all bombed out. It's horrible. Really upsetting not not much more. We can really say about that But I did want to also point to the Sillip Post the pages. Yeah, so I had a little bit of a hand in helping to put together the combatting disinformation Flyer that the Sillip put together. They've got a kind of hub with information about the war in Ukraine and The kind of things that are happening with the Ukraine Library Association as well So Nick Paul's been in quite a lot of contact with them about it I think he's also gone quite viral on social media based on Some of the things he's he's been tweeting about librarians And you know, they're kind of their sort of strength at a really difficult time So but if you want to have a look at the Sillip pages It does tell you the kinds of things that you can do obviously it's got links through to to where you can donate but sort of the the the kind of important area around this information and You know, just it's kind of really brought it home to us reading an article this morning about all the different countries around the World and the different ways that they're reporting on it and kind of it's it's you know, as ever It's with with any situation There's many many viewpoints and kind of trying to get to the truth of what's going on is is Obviously something a lot of reporters are trying to do so. Yeah, but Difficult times definitely So what we Shall we move on then? Yeah to the main topic. Yes, because we are very excited about having our guests Roxanne and Eleanor Speaking this morning. Yeah, we don't want to take up any more time No, we don't we've got the piece that they shared with us earlier We shared with you last time round and we let you know there it is in fact much better than a two-page spread The authors themselves. So can we check Roxanne and Eleanor are you with us? And that's just a sculpture I mean I think she's here. Yes, I am. I can't share my video though We were there a minute And then and we've got Eleanor as well. Hi Eleanor Hi, nice to meet you Shall we get there? We'll get your slides up and we'll hand over to you. Yeah. Yeah Yes Little bit of patience, so few nice pleasantries about the times we've met Roxanne We were looking for photos actually of some of the fun times we've had together Creative Commons summit and things like that. So, yeah okay, here are your slides and It's over to you. So, thank you so much for joining us this morning And I think you should have control of those slides Roxanne and Eleanor. We've got so We'll hand over IP education ideas identity and impact fantastic Thanks. Thanks, Faith. And thank you. It's so nice to finally connect with this particular community It's been a long time coming and we're really happy to come and Hopefully give you a bit of an insight into the work that we're doing and just really share our thinking and you know, hopefully moving forward we can stay more connected with everybody and really Looking forward to sort of sharing some of this with you and just before we Go into that dive into the slides Just sort of be nice to just introduce ourselves because I feel like I might have met some of you over the years Before I was at the university, I worked in the cultural heritage sector. So I spent a long time I'm almost like a lifer at the at the V&A so museum background and then I also worked for European foundation for a few years So I've always been really I kind of fell into copyrights by mistake Which might not come as a surprise to some people it often seems to happen that way in institutions But I was working in image licensing so he worked within enterprise for a while and then moved across to collections management But I got to the point where I was really keen to Support creatives that were starting out where there isn't any IP education as part of their curriculum So yeah, I come to you a L and I think what's really nice in terms of what we're going to share today I'm working with L. I'll let her tell you a bit more about her background But I think it's been really for me personally very rewarding connecting with a recent London College of Fashion Graduate so one of our colleges and kind of shaping our thinking together So L if you're there if you wanted to just say hi and what what you do and your background Yes So hello, my name is L and I have been working with Roxanne for the last year, which seems to have gone super fast Prior to that I studied law at the University of Plymouth Very different to living in London. It was quite a culture shock to then study from masters at LCF where Nobody will flip flops. There was no the old wetsuit in the lecture and Nobody drank cider all afternoon outside irrespective of the weather. So that was my culture shock from studying Laura Plymouth to Doing a masters in fashion management at London College of Fashion and when I finished my Four years of education. I went to work for a fashion technology startup. That really was trying to explore ways of supporting Early-stage designers in protecting their rights by using Blockchain and looking at NFTs and licensing in different ways that they can really diversify their offering so after I worked for that startup for a little while I then met with Roxanne and we worked on an Intellectual property module for UIL and then shortly after that I fell into this job, I guess It will all become a bit clearer as we go through our presentation What we offer at UIL. So I'll hand back to Roxanne to carry on with So yeah in in the time that we've got together We just wanted to tell you a bit more about who we are which we will continue to explore through this session and Who we're supporting? How our students and graduates are working in practice? Because I think One thing that I feel is quite key to the work that we do is we're very much being informed by What our creatives are asking their sort of wants and needs and their sort of ambitions with some of the amazing work They want to actually, you know carry out in industry. I'm really thinking about our future vision for inclusive IP education So for those of you that might not be familiar with the University of Arts London It comprises of six colleges including Central St. Martin's London College of Fashion And then there's London College of Communication Chelsea Wimbledon and Campbell. Well, so it comprises art design and communication and its broadest sense and there's 19,000 plus students according to the website. So I don't know how many officially there are at the moment and International students as well as home students and then over 230 courses All with very different cultures in the colleges right down to the courses right down to our course leaders and Just to say we are we are the IP education team across the whole of the University So and L is only part-time as well. So you can imagine it's quite I've been there for years and it's been quite sort of interesting trying to find ways to Dance around the curriculum when when IP and kind of copyright education isn't kind of embedded in that way So that's just to give you a bit of an insight and the other thing to say Is we are based in the careers and employability team So everything that we're going to share with you is very much focused towards our students and graduates rather than being Star-facing and that's not to say that we don't support stuff, but our role is really to support stuff Please do sing Chris if you want to Yeah, our role in supporting staff is to really help them have an understanding of intellectual property in terms of how it's going to support their students within their Project within their portfolios and showcasing and then kind of supporting them going out into professional practice So we're sort of in a slightly different role to say people that are working in Digital literacy in supporting staff with like teaching and learning materials in that way So yeah in terms of how we kind of I guess position ourselves and really L and I have been really kind of it's evolving all the time for us So as we're sharing this with you now It is always kind of it's very exploratory Which I guess comes with the territory of working somewhere like the University of Arts Which really encourages, you know being very innovative and thinking outside of the box I guess so I think we kind of position ourselves as educators thinkers and strategists and as I said before I think it's For us. It's really important that we connect with creatives understanding How they think what's motivating them? You know what their values and visions are within their work to help support them develop their creative identity and then help them understand the intellectual property and its broader sense as well as obviously copyright and Complain active role as agency for healthy ethical engagement and effective collaboration and I've put why now here because I think There's still and it probably resonates with some of you in terms of sometimes getting Not buy-in as such from senior management, but it's really Sometimes quite invisible the work we're doing on the ground even though we know we sort of making inroads at a very kind of on the ground level But I think particularly with the global impact of COVID-19 and really thinking about Our you know our students and grads having that agency to really you know A lot of them are very motivated by you know climate emergency or looking at areas within social justice and really there's a lot For them to really benefit from understanding the kind of relational role that intellectual property can play In practice when they're creating content collaborating and you know communicating within different fields and industries So I think in terms of historically how IP has been taught and Elle mentioned she did her Undergrad in law. I also did a post-grad in copyright law a bit later and I think um, I guess where we position ourselves differently is historically IP Has you know understand me it's based on case law very very important but I think in terms of You know that legal language things can seem quite inaccessible or people feel it's quite a barrier to actually Accessing information or understanding things in a kind of relatable way and I think In terms of when I was looking at other roles like mine when I started at university I realized there wasn't really anything similar because often IP is taught to Future law professionals or those starting a business When really the people that we feel would really benefit having worked in copyright law for so long as well Are the creatives and innovators that we have the opportunity to connect with So in the here and now I think we're really focused on the people and the practice for us The people are really central to us being able to then support And then we kind of blend key principles with Really meeting people whether it's one-to-ones, which we're having a lot of at the moment And we also kind of go in and do Sessions co-designing with course leaders, which I was going to speak about in a bit to really help Really help students build confidence, you know, we're not there to give them answers But we're there to help them make informed decisions and have an awareness of of sort of their behavior within these kind of professional spaces And in terms of again, again really focusing on the fact we are here for creatives It's really trying to understand how they're really working and you know where there might be gaps or where there might be Gaps in our knowledge as much as what they need support with And they're all you know working in international interdisciplinary and innovative spaces They might end up becoming business owners themselves or they will be employed by someone else or They might also be employing others They may be developing products platforms practices. So not everyone that we work with is going to create a tangible You know artwork or a design it could be something where they're creating an agency or Something in the metaverse that the nft conversation is very current at the moment And they may co-create collaborate and connect with others in industries and There's a real emphasis I think on this kind of community and capacity building as well where things are not about the economics of IP always but how Um, you know, it's not their primary driver the economics. It's much more about the social impact they can make And I just wanted to share this because this was um something that happened quite early on at UAL And it was the first time it made me realize that It's not linear teaching intellectual property and copyright. It's really and it's not just Getting people prepared for when they you know go out into practice because in this instance and some of you might know this Graduates work because it went viral on twitter overnight and an instagram and He hadn't done his final show at central st Martin's so he hadn't really had an opportunity to think about his reputation or how he Benefits and positions himself when he had so much exposure so quickly And it was the first time it really made me think about You know, the student's well-being and how copyright and intellectual property can actually have a bearing on How they best manage their reputation and thinking about safeguarding that students, you know, we have that duty of care to support them So he came to have a meeting with me and we sat down and thought about how he might Respond to all of this exposure that he'd had from so many people And what's really interesting is when he did his final show at central st martin's bearing in mind It's such an internationally renowned Course and you know people from industry are always coming in to sort of check out the student's work he Was very keen not to give away How he made these dresses fit over the model's head because when the models walk down the catwalk The material that you can see on the screen gets sort of sucked over their bodies So it was interesting. I went to see what he had exhibited and Following our conversation. I didn't tell him what to do. He made these decisions himself But because he knew everyone would want to see his work He just had his email address On a post it on a table and that was literally all that was displayed and I just thought it was quite quite a good example to share because it really helped me Make a case for the university as to the value of ip education across the board and when we need to think about how to reach people So I know that you will have had the article and this about the um IP module and this came out of me Came out of me sitting in my lockdown partly and being given some budget and being told to do something with it because Obviously, we like a lot of us weren't able to be on site and we were trying to ensure we were still being able to engage in a meaningful way So as el said, we met during that time and el and I worked to co-design An online ip resource Which is non-linear to reflect creative practice that idea that people can Look at it as and when they need to we wanted to create something that students and graduates would actually want to You know want to look at when they want to So it was creating relatable relevant and real experiences. So, um, there's lots of case studies from grads I think it's really important that The student voices are heard and they can connect with each other and really learn from each other and I think um el won't mind me saying this, but I've I've really noticed when we do sessions together Given el has only recently graduated herself and Can share her very fresh experiences. It's really interesting How engage not that they're not engaged with me, but I have to say the students really very the very business focused Students as well given el's background. I think they learned so much from that extra insight from her And as I've reinforced this confidence building to make informed choices. I think is really important We're kind of working in almost like Compassionate pedagogy. I think we're really keen to to feel that we're There as a sounding board sometimes. Um, but these are some screenshots from the module And as I said, we've tried to make it very interactive tried not to just make it Too legal. There's lots of links to lots of amazing resources that you will all be familiar with. Um And then I'm just going to hand over to el now He's going to talk through Some of the things that we get asked about and to share some of our some case studies from some of our grads Well, so um, yeah, we get asked a lot of questions They come in different forms. Um, it might be some direct inquiries from staff or students that come straight into our inbox It might be questions that we get asked in sessions Or it might be that we connect with students in different ways So depending on which students and we have questions from the topics can huge you vary so, um if students are in the Creating stages of their projects, which might be at any time in their degree they might be interested in finding out more about using other people's work and Well, they might be interested in finding out how their IP works when they are doing internships and placements and things like that Because they might have been asked to sign contracts and not read them and other things like that. Um Often showcasing and sharing your work is a really big topic of questions for us as throughout their time at UAL students will be Asked unexpected to showcase or share their work in certain forms It might be a work in progress show Or it might be a portfolio project where their submission for the unit is a visual portfolio A lot of the work that um, I do with the students is um looking at starting a business um as I have a business myself and I have worked for a couple of different startups, so um I offer support on the starting a business side of things in one-to-one sessions Which quite often goes towards the trademark registration side of things And obviously collaborating and um working with others at UAL and also externally to UAL is a really central aspect of so many different creatives work So I just wanted to share a few examples of students and graduates that we have worked with recently Um, so Cassie is a central st. Martins graduate And everything um, obviously apart from um the potatoes in the bag on the screen are made from um flax seed And then the little sequins at the front on the top image are um seaweed sequins So Cassie did a um masters in bio design at central st. Martins. Um, so all her work was focused on innovative materials Mostly for the fashion industry So Cassie came to us and asked um, you know, I've got these amazing innovative materials And I want to know how I can protect them I want to know when I should share things with people what I should keep secret How I can really protect my ingredients and my recipe And it was really interesting to hear how she framed things like that, you know All of these amazing materials on the screen and What it comes down to is a certain set of ingredients and a recipe that she worked for many years to define So we supported Cassie um in really thinking about how she shares her work with different groups of people and how that might impact her business decisions As well as supporting her in building a network that she could work collaboratively with Um, she has recently had her sequins featured in London Fashion Week as part of a collaboration with British designer Pria Alawalia, um, I'll share that link as soon as I've stopped talking. Um, because I can't do two things at once Um, so that just shows some insight into um one of the one-to-one meetings that Roxanne and I have had in the last few months Another one of those is sarah um, so sarah is a ceramicist graduate from also from central st. Martins and um sarah created a method for um diverting industrial waste from landfill and turning that into a hundred percent Recycled from industrial waste ceramics. Um, and she as part of her final major project Created a book called circular ceramics She really wanted to focus on accessibility and transparency to allow others to use her process From um looking at things in a sustainability perspective. She didn't want to protect this. Um So heavily that others couldn't use it because from a sustainability process um and perspective what's the point of um trying to make something sustainable and then keeping it all to yourself So, um, she released her book um under a creative commons license um sarah came to us when she was having um some issues With crediting and being credited properly by others who had used her process um, so it was a really interesting experience for oxanna and i to hear more about why she had chosen to um release her work in this way and um, you know, how she wanted to make an impact from her work And they're just two examples. Um, we could go on and on with some amazing case studies from our students So, um another part of the work that we do alongside offering one-to-ones is offering in um in class sessions So we go along to um sessions within a course or a unit and provide them with an IP session One of the things we've been trialing since september is co-designing sessions So these are some examples of An online session that I did with a strategic fashion management course at london college of fashion um, I was asked to um focus on collaborating um innovation and diversification of fashion brands And I worked really closely with the course leader to co-create a session that allowed students to explore key IP um understanding and um IP rights within the context of the unit they were currently studying Um, so I had students collaborating with each other in groups and using lots of examples from the luxury fashion industry to help explore their different ideas um, and we've offered lots of co-design co-designed um sessions this term ranging from illustration to journalism to fashion management and probably a lot more that I can't remember off the top of my head. Um, So the scope is absolutely huge Um, Roxanne, I will hand back over to you. Um, if you wanted to add any other co-design sessions that we have done this time Yeah, just just to share with everyone as well. It's, you know, in case anyone is interested in how we How we work with the courses we do Um, I actually asked this in my job interview because I thought how to how am I meant to reach all of these people and you know, you want to be inclusive and you want to make sure you know As much as you can sort of get reach everybody. Um, this was pre the module, but I think Really in practice it sometimes is you know connecting with like-minded people or its word of mouth course leader to course leader So because L obviously has a connection with london college of fashion already. She's been making a lot of um Uh progress there and you know, if this chimes with any of you I think it's that thing of I sometimes get so overwhelmed at you know, the potential that we have And not to just say oh, there's only two of us. We can't you know, possibly do it all and Trying to be realistic and starting Small and doing like pilot things. So um when L's been doing more of the fashion and business courses I'm I'm much more I guess my experience and my motivations are much more around the um Interception between IP and ethics as well. So I think a lot of the Courses that are more sort of focused on visual culture. I think um So there's been um courses, you know, whether it's photography or animation or documentary film Design for art direction, which it sounds quite a nebulous course and it is quite a nebulous course, but it's often More about students as I said earlier that don't make products as such or not setting up businesses but it's more their sort of Sense of self and their motivations to make a difference in some way and so it's trying to I guess unpick and Identify which and it's normally copyright that might come up and I was going to just talk about that You know the considerations for any of them creating any sort of content Be it that they need to get consent when they're interviewing people for example making sure they're fairly representing A community that they've just been, you know connecting with or if they want to um You know We get this a lot. Um, and I was going to say this with these slides I think the questions we're getting a lot around things around either people worrying that someone's going to rip them off um, but it might be if they post things online, but also Us really being um There to support them when they want to take to their platforms to maybe Call someone out because they feel that they've been unfairly represented and so part of l and i's role increasingly is to I guess make them Think before they press send or Put a comment that could go viral in a way that might not be considered appropriate It kind of I guess touches upon things around You know misinformation as well and just people really being mindful of of their actions through what they're creating and the way they're sort of Presenting themselves reputation Lee. So yeah, I guess in terms of bringing it back to kind of copyright implications I think as I said we get a lot around we've just had a few a few one-to-ones in the last week where One of our graduates, um, this happens a lot people intern at big brands and big brands often go thank you for your portfolio and then say oh, we don't want to work with you now and our students have seen potentially copycat designs on catwalks in shows and things like that So we get a lot of those sorts of things coming through. Um, I've just had one recently from Students it did fashion and styling production, which As as you will all know, um, you can only copyright something if it's fixed in a tangible way Which makes makeup and styling quite problematic sometimes. Um, unless they you know recognize the value in the images they've taken of their style So we've had that recently and then I think the other big area that's really coming to the fore around conversations around decolonization in its broadest sense And it is appropriating other people's content. So whether it's people that are working with artists and communities and ensuring that they understand um, you know, kind of the roles and responsibilities and respect within these communities to Ensure that they're fairly represented and credited um, another Example that we had the other day is a student that's entering a competition and we have a lot of people entering competitions and She wanted to know whether she needed to seek permission to incorporate a photograph that she'd sourced From unsplush, which some of you might be familiar with but it's essentially a An image site that's got set licensing terms clearly stated as to what you can do with the images featured on it um So she contacted me because the photograph she wants to repurpose actually features somebody Um, and she wanted to know whether she should contact the photographer out of courtesy So it's great that she was already thinking about, you know, when she might get permission and thinking about the context of the way things are being represented, which I think Elle and I are finding a lot more that this sense of How are you actually using something? What is it you're using it for? You know, why are you using this part of someone's work? And is it actually You know more about freedom of artistic expression and it's got a very, you know, kind of social or political kind of message in it over any commercial intent So in terms of our future vision, we're chipping away at this at this beast of a You know great space to be very very lucky to be working in but we really do want to encourage our creatives to lead from the front I think the culture of ual really is supporting and encouraging that and I'd really love to see uh ip um And you know to be included as part of those conversations that our creatives do go in two situations feeling confident that if people don't Give them any terms or they Give them a contract and expect them to just sign it thinking they don't understand their rights that our creatives feel confident to say What they do want what they do think they're worth and you know kind of really lead in that way and I think you know The dream would be that ip education is considered to be part of the curriculum Because at the moment it it just isn't at all And as part of the student experience, it's so key to what they're they're all about um And to be understood as a tool to activate positive societal change because I think I'll touched upon um sarah's example with the open source ceramics publication and I think For us, that's also really important. We've got a lot of amazing grads that are doing very entrepreneurial Work and very business focused but importantly It's also about supporting, you know, everyone else that is also, you know, making a difference in so many different areas of our Daily lives and I think just for them to have that understanding is really kind of vital for our Let's sustainable futures really So thank you so much for um listening and we'd really like to yeah start a conversation if anyone's got any questions or thoughts Roxanne and el thank you so much. I mean that was Absolutely brilliant Everyone I'm sure everyone would agree It's so interesting to see all the different layers of what you've done and I said what you would do was innovative I I don't know if any of us in our institutions have kind of taken this as far Um, so we've got and I see a question just popped up from lisa more and I was expecting lisa to be After the the gates here. So lisa you're at the university of creative arts Um, and you're saying that knowing about ip definitely gives them a competitive edge But no they have to take risks to form an informed perspective. So that is at the heart really of what you're doing, isn't it? Yeah Yeah, I think it's about them Like I say like we're increasingly finding it that we're refining What we say we're responsible for if that makes sense because we're really finding that we Encourage the students to self reflect when they come to us like if they come to us saying Oh, can you help me with this thing? We're really worried. They they normally are but deep down they often know what they want to do They just need a sounding board as well as obviously more legal kind of support we can Provide but I think it's Yeah, just encouraging them to recognize their own self worth in this space alongside everything else they're they're doing really Yeah, yeah, and I think many of us when we in our world and many of us in our community We think about openness a lot. I mean it's a big thing We want to be open and those in library world and in in cultural heritage as well You want to open up your collections? And I think what was really interesting in bringing and Sara's case study particularly what you've then got is Well How it what it means to the students what it is that they want to achieve and actually not saying That open or proprietary either one is better or worse That they they're all part of a mix aren't they that you can in some ways you want openness but in some ways you want Some element of enforcement if people are using your work without crediting it Absolutely. Um, so I think that's really interesting to hear. I wonder whether I could follow up on that The element of the the prediction and the enforcement what a lot of people in that space In in who are creatives Hey, have a concern about other people taking their stuff fashion in particular is a an area where people get ripped off Always have done ever since the beginning really of fashion as an industry Um, so what kind of support are you able to give them presumably you don't go and um Enforce their IP for them. You're not a group of lawyers, but in some ways you have to help them through that maze Yeah, and I think um, I'll just say a couple of bits and then oh I'm sure you've got things you want to follow up with I think to be totally Candid in this space. I think it's it sometimes comes from The education from the course leaders as much as it does Does from from the support we give because your point chris about Oh, well, that's how it's always been in the industry We get that a lot across the different industries that we're not specialists in any, you know, particular industry within UAL if that makes sense. So it's more about um Again trying to Give encourage students to have that voice to actually make that change and make that difference But I think where we do support and l do chip in if I say something you don't think it's right But I think we're trying to encourage them to be proactive But also be professional and really think about at the same time you being professional How are you going to then build your relationships and your reputation and people start to really? You know be part of your community and there is that you know I think there is a lot to be said in in having those voices and being professional in that way But it's it's a slow burn. Totally. Have you got any thoughts about that with the fashion? I mean Susan's just added in the chat as well something about confidence and I think for me that's really at the core of What I feel like I I feel like we offer um in the sense that whether we go in sessions and people ask us questions about I'm going to meet a factory and I want them to help me mock up and sample some of my designs But I'm only a student like that. I'm not going to go in and be able to ask them to sign an NDA Why as you said, you know, I'm only a student. Why are you defining yourself like that? You have so much more value to bring and the label that you've just put on yourself And if we can help them feel confident enough to go into this factory meeting and ask the people that they meet with to sign an NDA and Help the student understand what contract they are signing with this factory. I feel like we've done a really um Good thing to support the students confidence to support their their knowledge development and to support their understanding of IP in the real world And I think sometimes We do get into situations where I feel like what they need is legal advice. So if we get an email and they say Oh, can you just tell me that these uh trademark classes that I want to register in are are right and should I be thinking about anything else? And would you like to you know do it with me like do it for me walk me through the process? Obviously, that's a much more difficult one to deal with in terms of You know not offering legal guidance and really specific Trademark questions which can be more difficult But I think as Roxanne said thinking about or helping students to think about Their reputation not just now in the moment as a student or recent graduate But you know how that might inform their later career and things like that are really central so Yeah, I think we cover a huge a huge scope across the UAL but In terms of where our advice is focused. I would say, you know centrally On things like confidence are really really important to our work Go on This is that I mean that's really really interesting to hear just one observation is how You're freeping it as IP as a tool And something that they can use then helps to empower them because often we think about intellectual property laws as this Framework them that that subjects us to do things in certain ways and we don't have power in it There's probably more to say about that than we've got time. I know we you wanted to pick up on science question Yes I'm as asked a question about The sort of balance between the one-to-one work that you do and and being In a classroom given, you know that one-to-ones are resource heavy and it kind of relates to a question That was in my mind as well around how this fits with the curriculum and what, you know How much you're doing is kind of complimentary because it really feels that that, you know It's it's kind of got to be embedded hasn't it for for them You know, you can't just have the the smartest and the brightest savvy students to have worked this out that there might be an issue Um because you could potentially have a whole load of other students who just end up, you know Losing out and and kind of, you know, maybe go into that factory and and getting ripped off Yeah, I think um I mean it's a question we might really value putting back to this community not for an answer this second but I think one of our biggest challenges is Yes, we're a small team. That's one thing, but you know, we're making inroads, but I think it is How can we because at the moment? Everything we do is not evaluated or measured in any way and it's hard sometimes because I want to say Say to senior managers. Oh, we're doing this stuff. How can we like what can we do? You know, how can we bring it all together? And I think in terms of simons question? I think We are I think it's because of the time of year we're approaching like people's major final projects They're all thinking about their portfolios and showcasing their grad shows So, yeah, our one-to-one time has gone up hugely and I think because l and i you you can probably sense we are quite aligned in our Our thinking it's a blessing and a curse for us sometimes because we're like, oh my god We've got all these ideas of what we can do and with the one-to-ones. I guess we're evidence building You know, we're building up all of these case studies and I guess question about the community if anyone's got any Experiences or tips on how we might position that to then put a case forward because I think you know it's And we haven't talked about this because, you know, we are very much an ip education strand But there wasn't really an ip infrastructure across the entire university And so I'm having to safeguard what we are doing so that we can really focus on this but in the meantime It is resource heavy and we need to find you think the stats that would be, you know And and I kind of log in everything because I think that's that's the kind of evidence, isn't it? And and testimonials and things, you know from from the students where you're helping them. Yeah There's a question from louise. Um, and I think we are fast running out of time actually, but it was just about Providing advice on patents as well. Um, so presumably I mean your it's ip education, isn't it? It's not just copyright. So you you do get into design rights and patents as well Yeah, I think I think that's a thing because they're working in, you know A lot of them are working at the intersection of art design and tech I think patents are like with them the example el gave the cassie quinn I think patents are coming up in conversation But as el said, I think a big challenge we have is we're not lawyers and you know, we're not patent and often it's We need the students to have an awareness of their processes being really valuable and not to just share them all In a work in progress where industry come in for example, but we don't you know Obviously unpack patents and in any sort of detail because we obviously can't do that and we're realistically It's it's so far down the line that someone would get a patent that we And and the last thing to say is ual works quite differently from other universities in that Students own their ip in everything they create not the university, which I think can change The the amount of support that people currently get for something like patentable ideas So I think that's where you're a bit on its own in that sense. So But yeah, we do definitely acknowledge and cover patents to a point Okay, great That was so amazingly good. We would love to carry on the conversation But we have reached the time and in fact what I would say is I think there's a lot we should And one thing that just occurred to me is we know that the intellectual property office is working on an ip educational Framework this is something they should be aware of your work. I think this is this is excellent stuff So I think we'll carry on the conversation. We will definitely carry that Find other Fascinating another avenues for working out how we might we might dig in some more if you're happy to do that Yeah, and see if we've got some ideas from some of our copyright specialists who've had to kind of you know Do that same sort of balance. I think of you know working out that they are Demonstrate, you know, they're they're making an impact and making a difference and and getting support to sort of value what they do. So because it's just It should be completely Obvious, but these things often aren't and there's a lot of priorities. So yeah So thank you very much. We are we are at time. We know But we will we will oh, we're here while we still have some people still I know the people are leaving the session of course as regulars will know Um for those of you that are able to stay right to the bitter end. We do have some very uh, you know Some more content. So we will have some future webinars And we've taken the dates off here We realized that the take that we put in for the next session becoming a copyright specialist was actually good friday So that's not going to happen. We shifted it to may now. I think it's on there as it's going to be the next one We we will confirm dates in we're skipping april Because that's actually when i'm finishing up my current job and starting a new one. So actually i'm and i'm going to three conferences Very nice conference time is here again. Hopefully There's some really good stuff happening around accessibility in our group. Kate facility has put together an excellent piece on accessibility We are hoping to share and have cake talk about it in due course Oh, yeah, um, and then we mentioned the ipo cake. We're cake. I'm just hungry. You're you're hungry Cake obsessed. Yes. No, no cake facility at Middlesex. Yes, not cake. Um, uh, So the ipo we they they are working away on their their framework. We'll see what that comes Yeah, we'll chase them up so you can get a date for that And we did have earlier this week a meeting of scenac the copyright negotiating and advisory committee the uu cake U of h e group. Uh, so there are things happening and we will be oh kate excellent a virtual cake from kate kate Kate does bake good kate. She does. I can remember. I remember now. Yes. Yes. Yes, right Right. I think we're at that point at that point. Are we little Where we need a little bit of uplift? Okay, hang on. Hang on. I think I think oh, oh, oh, oh You've gone too far So we'll have moved back one slide because now we're giving away what our one last thing is, baby seamless There's one more gift we'd like to bestow All good that was the one that that jingles quite long if I mean if we want people to stay and not miss the last So let's get the one last thing slide back up Which is that we have didn't put this in the copyright news But there is this story about the etcher and plagiarism case. It's been on the news plagiarism or copyright infringement um, so yeah, we Sometimes we fail. I have felt that that the copyright infringement cases that come up whilst they're a good opportunity to talk about copyright stuff Sometimes they I think they can distract from some of the issues that we tend to deal with on a day-to-day basis Yeah, because they're slightly unusual aren't they when when something is the biggest hit of the year and there's millions of Pounds at stake then it changes people's behavior and that's not really how Copywriting in in many education research context works. No, but this this was going to be our one last thing And then something even more interesting happened yesterday when I was listening to jerry me mine Chris doesn't like jerry but We were having a listen and um, you went back and listen to it when I told you And they have people kind of calling in about the etcher and case and talking about music and copyright and then If you go into this, what is it? It's one minute one hour 30 38 minutes into it We get somebody who comes on to say kind of this. Oh, well, you know, can you ever be original with music? Can they say he's a singer. He's a singer songwriter guy called elliott somebody or other Yeah, and he goes through this kind of little piece where he moves from one song to another song with all it's playing the same chords and essentially does a massive plagiarism Rip off of what's called the axis of awesome, which we did at ice pops in 20 The axis of awesome and their four chord song fully fully attributed in comedy band and that was That went viral years ago. Yeah, and then and he doesn't credit them He doesn't say anything. He kind of makes out that he invents it himself. Yeah, so he kind of commits this plagiarism Copyright thing while talking about the whole thing and it amused us quite a lot and slightly annoyed us So people need to go. Okay, fine. Okay, but we are actually I'm gonna. I'm gonna stop the recording Are you going to stop for recording because we have actually created an original original work of our own Haven't we're going to share it with everyone? I think we should stop the recording I think that anyone is watching back or anyone that needs to leave Unfortunately, we're going to miss this. Yeah It also might partly because it might be an absolute train crash So if you're gonna leave, thanks a lot. Hope you enjoyed it. You want to hear our original recording? We might play it for real actually soon In person and I think I think this is this is the one and only time for anyone to hear this