 Yeah, I just sent around the links and sorry I didn't do that last night. I don't know why I didn't go through last night. But if folks want to take a moment to read over the April 20 minutes. We'll also have to approve the agenda. Oh, sorry. Thank you. Okay, let's start with that that makes sense. So for the agenda, we'll review the minutes. Discussion on strategizing. And we also got like self education, learning around table report back from other committees. Things like that. So, can someone make a motion to approve the agenda. I make motion to prove the agenda. Jeremy, Helen doing a second. I second. One favor. Any opposed. Motion passes. Okay. So now we've got the minutes. Oh, hey. Sorry, we just started without chef. But we're just reading over the minutes. Are you back in the office line. Whoa. No. No. Well, does anyone make a motion to approve the minutes? Thanks, Michael. Serving seconds. All in favor. Hi. Any opposed. So, um, We were just talking about how, um, We didn't get to talk about the stipends at the last city council meeting that, so that'll be punted to the next one, but that we don't feel like we need to talk about that. We can just dive into the rest of our agenda, which is mostly just to discuss and strategize. About what's next. As we've been kind of in the like, hurry up and wait. You know, rush, rush, rush getting the stipends out and then. And then, you know, like, and before that too, it's not new to the stipend. But, um, I was thinking just having like an open discussion unless someone has another proposal for how to, how to have this. Well, I think we could. Just use you. You sent the presentation and I guess we could look at their recommendations and see what's left. Yeah. So that's. I can just pull that up and share my screen if that's so you're all account with the same thing. I was, I think. Kind of noting what you mentioned, Sheena. I don't know if there might be three buckets of potential. Things to consider. One is, of course, the recommendations from creative discourse, which came out of a pretty robust process. The second bucket that comes to mind is kind of emergent issues. And, you know, thinking a lot about the discussion. Around unhoused people in our community that occurred at the city council meeting. For example. And then the third thing I'm wondering about is, you know, as an advisory committee. Does the council have specific requests of us. As well. So. That's kind of how I'm, those three categories are kind of how I'm wondering about how we maybe start to. Bucket different options for us. That's good. Yeah. I mean, I, the other the, it's a kind of a matrix here because the recommendations that created discourse proposed had three different. Categories operational relational and structural. I think those are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Yeah. We can. Yeah. We can create a matrix and put things in there that. You know, correspond both ways. Great. And then it's almost just kind of like, okay, Lauren. And Cameron is watching this video where, you know, staff, are there things that are happening at the city level that we want to. Or like our questions or considerations coming from the city that we want to. You know, add that like adding to this list. Outside of housing, of course, which is the, the big one. I mean, one thought that it might have gotten captured in what Jeremy said, but. Like part of. The kind of responsiveness to what's happening in the city. Like I'm thinking of. You know, like, you know, what's happening around the Elks Club property, for example. So like, how are we both helping that process, but also trying to like institutionalized practices that then it's like, we shouldn't be, it feels like we're like reinventing the wheel every time. Yeah. So how are we like getting like, okay, here's different. Like ways you can do outreach that are different than how we've done it historically and like get processes in place that city staff will be able to. You know, like, you know, you know, you know, like, or does this group have a specific role in when there's a big community engagement process going on like that. We know like this is our role and here's how we're like supporting the city in it. Or I don't know. I'm just like, how do we just like operationalize more of this and get it like built into the culture of the city and to the just practices. And like using. What's happening in the coming year as like ways to just build out the community. I'm also thinking of like the budget, like how I tried to start doing that. And like to me taking that to the next level this year should be a big priority of like, how are we really trying to embed. Equity considerations into how we actually craft the budget from the beginning. And does the city have like a participatory budgeting. Goal for next year. I remember Cameron mentioning that. I can do this. I can't remember what the city was talking about. You know, going around those lines and I can be making those words from other places in my brain. So I don't remember the city talking about it exactly as participatory budgeting. The way it's typically done. Is this. Staff kind of comes up with their. Both there are like list of just what's happening to do city operations and then like they're kind of wish list of like or might not get funded that I want to like put on the maybe list. Council's doing strategic planning which will happen in the fall and has like their wish list of things and priorities. So it's very like city staff driven and then it goes and then like there's many iterations like it's talked about at a bunch of city council meetings basically like I'll fall through January when the final budget so there's like formal budget meetings and usually December and January but the like but the conversation's informing what's going to make it in or not are happening usually I'll fall. So but there as I think there could be ways to try to figure out how do you get input in sooner because it's hard to like react once it's done you're kind of nibbling around the edges that's how I feel. Yeah yeah Michael. Lauren can you say anything about the youthfulness and maybe the further development of the equity tool that we did send to the council is that going is that the process that or is that part of the process that is now built into the budgeting discussions or do we have to is there another step that our committee should take either refining it expanding it somehow or just remind just simply reminding everybody that it's there what would you what would you say about that. Yeah I would definitely want Cameron's take on because I it's kind of her how she's using it I could see you know and maybe next meeting when we have Cameron here like is there you know this summer we try it out with a couple departments or something and like walk through like this is what we mean and like here's what the language means and here's like how you do it to get them familiar with it because I I don't think I don't think it's been extensively used yet and I I would be it would be very understandable if people don't totally get how to use it because it's new and different so that would be my guess but so I'm not but yeah Cameron would obviously know better like how she's tried to like roll it out to people and I know she's talked about wanting to use it more extensively so that could be a role where we have um could help like support that process okay and helping people like meaning helping like the public who are coming to these meetings and and recruiting like and doing outreach to try to get people to come to these meetings is that what you're I can see both I can see as well thinking about can we look at the budget process from start to finish and like where is our community participation and input opportunities and are there ways to improve that and city staff who does the vocal the work putting the budget together and has you know most of the knowledge of like what do we actually need for the different line items to like run city government how are are we helping support them and also like getting into the practice of using that um assessment when they're building their department's budgets well I guess it would be useful if we got any if we if Cameron has already used it in some of her discussions it would be useful to get some of her reactions to it and where she thinks it need it might need some shoring up or some changing or or maybe eliminating if that's necessary so I guess we we wait on that until she's back that'll be the 18th is that right there's our next meeting I'm playing at my calendar yes next week the 11th is the city council meeting and then the 18th it's our city staff meeting yep well okay so we can we I'll just put in the minutes that we'll we'll ask Cameron for a review and report a report and review on the the use of the the tool yeah Lauren I like what you began talking about with maybe our role in helping to institutionalize more participatory or different kinds of participatory practices um because that that's one thing that I kept thinking about as I was listening to the discussion about the Gorton Park structure last Wednesday is there there just seemed to be kind of a lack of shared understanding around the experience of people who are unhoused and maybe are making the most use of that space and other spaces and so I kept kind of you know my my tools and my experience particularly around like kind of community stuff is like getting people together in different ways to have conversations that change how people perceive each other and understand each other and so those are my notes like how we need a way to get like people together on these issues in a different way um so I really appreciate that potentially that could be a role for us um I would like to think more about that that's definitely something that's been very lightly pending on our to-do list for years right is I'm trying to pull it up right now and of course I'm too slow but of um um like proactive I think we've called them proactive educational events on housing races and bathrooms etc and so do we want to I mean is that kind of what you're thinking about is like a general public conversation about um the experience of unhoused folks in Montpelier and like not not even focusing on like solutions but of like having common like language and understanding about like what what's what does it look like yeah I don't I don't know if that's what I'm thinking about specifically just because um each conversation is going to require the input of even just talking about how you want to have a conversation right it needs so much expertise um so maybe I'm thinking like taking a step back more to what Lauren was saying around if we were to build a framework for you know how to do these kinds of participatory conversations events I don't know what they are yet but um that that could be a place to start and then maybe there's of course like there's the test issue that we want to kind of try things out kind of in the way of a prototype um but yeah I think I mean I think yes what you're saying Jane is is right like um bringing people together to build more of a shared understanding around issues that are affecting us I'd like to talk here about and this is this is something that concerned me from the very beginning when we were setting up the the the various panels we're we're sort of stuck I think in a a dilemma of wanting to get more voices and at the same time uh exceeding to the the insistence at least creators discourse made that insistence of anonymity and and and I don't know how to I don't know how to get beyond that I mean people want to be heard but they don't want to be identified being heard and uh or at least we're told that they don't want to be identified being heard and and I think that that makes it very difficult to get um you know across you know a lot of voices out in the open and I don't I don't know what to do with that about that I'm just supporting that out as a as a problem that I felt was central to what created discourses methodology was and how we were able how we were not able to use some of that um because the list were closed and we couldn't reach we can't reach those people they insisted that that's that's almost proprietary information which I find a little bit offensive because we paid for it um and and I think it's necessary I think we need to be able to invite people to come forward um with the understanding that if they do that they're no longer anonymous but and then they're I'll just finish this one thought it and there are other ways to do it that doesn't have to be one route to getting information we can we we can ask for people to remain anonymous um I think that weekends the the the um the authority of the information that we get if people but but I will respect people's will concern and willing and wish to be remain anonymous I would just want to say like creative discourse has said that they can send out emails to this list and things and I think you're totally right of this like and they reached out to a certain set of people and they have those you know they and they were able to participate in everything else and like I'm sure there was a ton of people who they reached out to who couldn't participate and they don't have their contacted for me you know like it's like and if we were to like hit refresh it would we would get a different list of folks and so I think we can like both ask creative discourse to send it out until like recognizing that that would be less anonymous of feedback and I think we can start I want to say start from scratch because I feel like that sounds bad it's not like it's not like we're like yeah but we can we can build our own list I guess is what I'm saying and it sounds so like we're not like building a list of people we're like getting like Shayna sorry can we do something like that can you ask creative discourse to send the email all this group and ask them okay the results were welcomed and you know we want to do more about it do you want to share your information with the city maybe some people will say yes then we can start talking that group because I've taken surveys and you know things like that and there's always option right do you want your information to be shared yes or no so I think it is okay to ask this I don't know how it might be a good start they're gonna send out an email saying like hey the statement thing is happening you should consider joining a committee and like as part of that email can also say if you want to say in the loop yeah great sorry Michael yeah well I mean you might also be able to ask people if they can recommend others if they can yeah that that can be contacted I mean that's the way great finds work right you just start with people that you know you start with things that you know when you work out from there but it still leaves you know it still leaves us kind of in the background with with see with creative discourse you know calling all the shots on who who is available and I just find that difficult to work with and and and at this point you know I think we really need to say we need to be more sort of about we need to be able to operate on our own too I don't know what to say but I just like like I've seen a similar so for one of the state government processes that I've been that's been happening over the last year like for example they were also doing affinity groups that were not open to just anyone to participate and so even though it was state government and they have all the same like public access information like requirements and stuff they were able to figure out I was wondering about like talking to them I know that they had consultants I don't know if it was a similar structure where via consultant you can do things that state government itself can't do but like I mean I could still see a role for there's some small piece where to continue being able to facilitate affinity groups where I think you do get different input than you get in other types of spaces and I think like you said there's like many different ways you can try to get information there's like public meetings there's like online surveys which could be anonymous there could be paper surveys like there's different ways I think we could get information that if people don't you know have the option and don't want to identify themselves we could still get input so I hear what you're saying and I think like to the how are we putting structures in place that can be like long-lived trying to be both limited in what would need to be facilitated by something other than the city like we should definitely be very conscious of that and maybe there is some small role where either we can figure out how you can legally do like affinity groups and things like that or does that up with if you want to keep doing that kind of way of gathering community input it doesn't always have to be through a third party I think I'd be curious of trying to figure that out I think sorry I just my understanding of why we went through this process was that you know there's a lot of um uh what it's called like FOIA requests from the state government not from this oh my god sorry there's a lot of like requests for transparent information from the for this like from the city of Montpellier by residence right and that like wanting for people to be able to share freely without fear that these um that like that like that they won't be like put on a list on Facebook of like here are the people who like made it so that we have to go through this process I'm like trying to make up like whatever it was but that like that we like made we were wanted to have like a really strong commitment to anonymity in that process and that's kind of like why we went through this process and then there's like a different I right I think it's like asking for it like being like that process is now done we're asking for your consent to participate in this like separate public process we're going to bring in new players as well um totally makes sense and I don't want to I don't think it's that like creative discourse is like holding the reins on where we go I think like I feel like we like very intentionally went through this process to kind of like divorce the like the possibility of who participated being public and um and like so we can be able to get like really clear results and just like if we're going to go through another process where it's like more of a conversation and it's open people should be able to like opt into that as well I think that like I think this makes sense of like sending out a follow-up email asking folks to participate in this more public process and I think the first round of what we did was right um I don't know I think we need to get a little bit more guidance about what the what the um the rules are what open meetings you know what the open meeting rule is and how how well it could be because the city council can go into executive session yeah yeah and and if you go to an even higher level much higher level when there are there are closed hearings that take place in congress all the time yeah I mean and I don't know that anything like that happens at the city level or even at the state level I mean I know the city council goes into executive session session and they always cite the the rule but it would be helpful to have Lauren or and or Cameron give us a little bit more coaching on that um and and I and I don't as I say I don't know if the Vermont state legislature ever uh committees go into into uh closed session hearings but we could find out about that too that's an easy enough yeah that's easy and if there are such possibilities then we could offer the same thing I mean we could have closed hearings right um the the people who attend would and they they would necessarily they would not necessarily have to know each other or be identified to each other they can be successive instead of a group um but I think there's something about group dynamics that's both helpful and harmful I mean I've been group dynamics group where the dynamic starts off in one direction it's like a snowball you can't stop it and uh and and it shuts out other voices but on the other hand if people feel more comfortable having others with whom they have an affinity of one kind or another then I guess you have to accommodate that yeah I I really um this is interesting I'm I second or third or fourth I don't know that request to get clarity on what kinds of conversations we can hold and what regulations there are rules there around them because one of the ideas again picking up off the the conversation around Wharton park you know one of my kind of quick ideas was like oh we need to get folks who use this space into like a design workshop and like understand what the issues are what the needs are um and let the people who use it dictate the design of the space like this is a kind of a design problem right um but then you get into issues like okay if we were to organize that as cjack does that mean anybody can show up and stir the pot for example or could we have it be more of a small scale intimate kind of thing so I think that's a really some clarity around that would be really helpful for that are like tactics that we want to use moving forward so I've got that we'll have group Cameron report back on that in the next meeting um should we transition to a more of like what other ideas two people have and just recognizing it's 830 now 835 um should we should we kind of put put all of all of the virtual not virtual like I'm I'm trying to make a joke and it's like working in my head and I can't get the words out of like but all the posts it goes up on the wall um so anyway um yeah do other yeah like so I guess just following the great and park red for a quick moment um what is the timing on that um do you have no I can't remember if we know but I think it's like any process that we would want to move on is probably going to be much slower than the park getting removed and like that yeah that being like an immediate tit for tat yeah yeah I was I was surprised that the structure hasn't been moved already it sounded like everybody just wanted to be done with it um so well I I walked past it yesterday and uh and there was a sign posted on it I didn't go up to read it but because I was in a hurry but I have to be downtown today I'll take a closer look but it was there was something pinned to the to the structure and I think it I think it was announcing a date when it was going to be moved but I'm not sure and I'll I'll if I find out anymore I can email all of us just as sharing information I can take a picture of it circulate I mean this may not be so dependent on the work and structure itself but um you I could imagine from kind and I'll use the I'll use the word design workshop just as a placeholder I don't know what that means but I can imagine some kind of design workshop for that particular space it it's a very significant space for a lot of reasons that people have talked about um and I could imagine a kind of you know design workshop co-design thing where people can help determine what that space is um and and kind of understanding competing perspectives um so that it perhaps is used by a lot of different kinds of people um so and I don't and I don't necessarily feel attached to that because that's a I think it needs partnerships it needs a lot of work it's not just a cjack thing um but that is an example of something we you know a kind of conversation we could we could host this has happened in the past um the the the technical term for those but it's called charrette and um and when the uh I was on the the small group that designed and sort of got found the funding for the the which I guess you'd call it the parklet in front of city hall and the problem I mean there was a clear problem right the city people thought that the kids hanging around city hall was um and was ugly and they didn't want them there and they wanted to pass loitering so no loitering uh signs and and actually um they did they did um arrest kids for sitting on the steps when was this michael what yeah um let's see my it's now probably about 30 years ago yeah like my kid was you my kid was one of those who was was brought in was was arrested oh my gosh for for loitering on the on the state city hall steps um he was probably about 10 at the time to maybe 12 um um and you know what we what we did then was okay we got um we we got a plan together about and it was money for something called iced tea at that time you had to do intermodal transit wild um and we had to get the city council's approval to submit the proposal they reluctantly did that and it was oh this sort of oh they'll never get that grant haha and we did but then we then we did a charrette and you know got and just it was an open call and we were at the space and we said what what would you like to see happen here and what are some of the ideas and you know what we got is what we got and there were a couple of things the reason there are cobblestones is because people didn't want skateboarding in front of the city hall all right so you make the surface on totally unfriendly to skateboards and that was the last reason for the cobblestones um and um and the side gates were some way to sort of separate the city halls property from the the park park kind of property and things like that and that's useful i mean um you know if you get a uh an architect who knows how to run these kinds of things you or if you get the expert in who knows what your what what the questions are then you can get a lot of good answers and it's not as if you know you're making choices at that point you're just gathering as that's where you've been talking here you're just gathering the information and gathering ideas and you put them all down and you start working in working working from that list so i think it's i think generally you're right you're right that you know trying to hold some kinds of public meeting on this on the location um i think is helpful because you can sort of take a look around and see what what can we do here um and people can see what they want to say that's so cool to hear that history thanks but i'd love to actually know more about the criminalization of kids on public basis it was it was pretty dreadful i mean every spring to have the city council say oh the spring spring is here and the kids are messing up the front of the city hall again you know so what what comes to mind too and like why this matters to cjack is i've participated in a number of shreds like that um and not all of them have been designed in a way that promotes equity um and so as i think about our role you know partnering with the experts who have the right questions around the design of you know urban spaces um is important and also you know us holding a process and even just the the way people come together that supports equity um that that seems like why i think i'm interested in it even though i have like this other kind of design interest um is like how do we make these conversations so that the people who's had the most at stake can really um participate so i mean i've been struck by the fact that people at city council have been very frank i mean that that that uh meeting that discussion about what to do with gerton park it brought out a lot of people at whose voices um we haven't heard and people we haven't seen the city city hall city council meetings so i'm not so sure that people are reluctant to you know out themselves if that's if that's the proper word um they seem to be doing okay with with it and being quite outspoken about it um last wednesday i'm putting that down as something else to ask Cameron about is like what was the outreach like leading up to these meetings and yeah how how was that shared um because yeah it was really powerful welcome back line sorry powered through um okay so we've been talking about design sorry i feel like i stopped the conversation which i didn't mean to do talking about like you know designing spaces to be able to bring in folks to be able to get all like different ideas on the table um you know having spaces where people are not just um encouraged to come but like welcomed um are are there other things that like other agenda you know future agenda items to help us lead to these bigger agenda items for you know bigger conversations about um or having conversations about you know housing and homelessness and um and bathrooms and all these other things sorry doing a bad bad facilitating trying to like participate it's hard to participate and facilitate at the same time just gonna say that okay anyway well i think the next big challenge that the city is kind of faces is how to deal with the planning for the elks uh the elks and i think we need to be you know need to remind them that we're here um and make sure that they whatever process they do set you know establish includes somebody who's going to be no knowledgeable about and speaking for you know equity issues i think that's a really important point i certainly want to wouldn't want to own that kind of public engagement process for such a no it's a big set of like it's but holding the equity accountability seems a role for us yes i and that that has lots of dimensions to it in this case i mean transportation public transportation um recreation housing how do you how do you so i i i think we we can try to push very hard to at least have some kind of representation yeah on on whatever planning committee you're his best assembled lauren is there any i mean i don't think the sale of the property is even closed but is there any thinking about next steps beyond that um we got a presentation not last meeting at the meeting before um i don't know if anyone else was there so that um mic miller yeah director was talking through essentially like a year long he estimated planning process which would be um includes a series of public input opportunities which i would love us to weigh in on and have help shape perhaps um and then you know there's like the engineering and like site analysis and the stuff of like what are what are the opportunities and what are the limitations on the property itself like what could you do with it based on that just the landscape and whatever other constraints and i assume in that would be some analysis of like transportation options and things but um but yeah so it was like that combination of work and then as they kind of hone in on okay what kind of where's their momentum um i guess starting to make decisions so that you're getting to a plan um that both has incorporating the public input and the um the site elements with engineers and architects and where all the people have to be involved in that kind of project um i mean one of the pieces of it that in addition to the like the transportation and stuff like i think this private public partnership opportunity slash like also raises some very interesting equity and access issues and like how could that be structured if that's going to move forward like should it move forward if it does how are you doing it in a way that's like ensuring the greatest access and affordability and stuff for the community that we don't end up in a place where you know if you can pay a big monthly fee you get a whole bunch of things and if you can't afford that then you're getting some or like we have less opportunity than we have now because there's a buy-in for certain things that used to be accessible through the city or something like i'm sure yeah so that one in particular i can see some issues and then of course like housing huge other issues like how do you build that in a way that's it'll be a great one for so many so many considerations you know what the timeline is for the starting so it can be like july or and like who's in charge of that process that's a good question it's been i think mostly like cameron and mike miller um what's my miller's role i'm sorry of the planning department okay yep um and yeah so he'll be the one certainly like working with like the architect engineer and um you know as a planner had like that big view of like all just the pieces that go into a project like that um i i think less so like his role is not typically like how do i maximize public like community input and stuff like that's other parts of the city would i think focus more on that but so like they already did one public meeting that pal castello had facilitated and then they were supposed to be gathering that input and putting it back out to people in some way what i haven't seen yet and then um but yeah we should get the schedule of like what what they're thinking for next steps for public engagement and then um see if we want to provide any input on that the other property that presents a similar challenge is the confluence park um i don't know where where that's going if it's going anywhere can can you remind me what that one is that's near the that's near the transit it's between the transit center and shawls as you walk the path you make that big turn and it's where the confluence of the the north branch oh yeah and and the winooski are and there's there is a plan posted up on a bulletin board there um but i don't know if it's been fine if that's the final plan and i don't know where that's going and of course that's going to raise a lot of questions about safety because it's down out of sight um from from the street level and um and the way it's been it's been designed there are issues about access there are issues about privacy there are issues about public space um and and i've heard you know there are some people who now want to i've heard just and say we shouldn't do we should not do this so but i think it's pushed along probably too far for that the budget for that got approved right that's right yeah so i'm not i'm not sure what's holding it up you it was it just waiting for spring we can be here until July for that but i mean yeah that's we're supposed to get a presentation on that at the next council meeting um okay so if anyone wants to watch that or check it out later um i mean so Vermont River Conservancy's been the partner with the city on that and they've done a bunch of fundraising that we've gotten a bunch of like some federal grants and stuff so there's a lot of money it's a many-year process so i don't i think it's been more it's been in like engineering and design and stuff i don't think it's but i think it's just held up in the way that big projects just take a long time i don't think it's been hit a roadblock or something that i know of but maybe i'll hear differently at the next council meeting um but last i the last update we'd gotten it was kind of like there was still just like fundraising and other things um but yeah i don't know in terms of like design and stuff how locked in they are if they got federal grants and stuff around a specific design or if it was more conceptual and there's opportunity for kind of like where how locked in the design is for example but there is a design and the like process has started essentially is what you're saying and so it's just like a yeah yeah at least the process of like fundraising and like yeah engineering design lines and stuff like the planning is like far is a couple years in um i mean they haven't broken ground yet or anything as far as i know so it's like coming back i really hope no one's watching this and it's like shooting like we had multiple conversations about this and i'm just like whoo i like don't remember at all just a reference sheina here's thank you we're talking about okay yeah so it's like a gradated like a kind of walking path and benches and then like they want boating access and yep that's right i mean like our river should be an asset in our city and like a beautiful part of it instead of something we try to just get over on bridges and wall off with concrete yeah and then as michael said there's complication to all there's complexity in the world that gives us i think a sufficient number of items on yeah i think that's a good idea i think we really need to realize that you know there are all there are going to be equity problems on every project that comes you know involves public money and and we need and we just have to pick and choose where do we think is other is the most critical place where we can be helpful in designing a process for for you know getting two answers you know this committee probably will go on forever because uh problems of social justice and equity are ancient yeah so i think what i'm hearing is next we'll have camera and talk to us next week next time about a bunch of different things including how the tool is being used guidance on open meeting was what kind of our recap and for the city council meetings what's the timeline for the elks lodge process and for the confluence park process and then we'll kind of take it from there because that's all right so we'll just have camera do a whole bunch of research and report back to us and then that's for usual i know we have to do this to her but i'm i feel badly that we keep dumping more projects into her lap and i mean i do think these are all things that are happening anyway right like i hope that it's not creating new work for her it is making me go like oh my god how is she doing all this work all the time yeah but i do think by asking very specific questions from her or you know that that will help her get through you know you know to focus retention on just those things instead of trying to have to create the structure of the questions for herself yep okay well thank you all anything else while we're all together i won't be able to go to the city hall meeting on the 11th or be here for seed for the cjack meeting on the 18th and those are both travel dates from me to the southwest so to and from the southwest have uh arizona right yes yeah have a good good safe travels thank you um yeah and i have to be out for an hour during that i'm just looking meaning but i'll be there um and hopefully that'll work around the presentation timing so um cool well thank you all thank you for all your work yeah nice to see you thank you bye bye see you later