 Yeah all right we've been sitting for a while and so I'm wondering like is what people need now like a lecture about a nice lecture everybody would you like a lecture but I'm not like quite sure what else to do I mean I could do like my little dance you know and entertain you for a while or we could all do that but maybe I'll say some things and then maybe something else will happen yeah yeah all right I was appreciating the some of those some of those slides and as I was watching Erin's presentation I was thinking of what I might want to say and I thought I'd pick up on the theme of money which also came up in some of I mean usually when people talk about economics they're talking about money which already is part of the problem originally the word economics was a lot broader than money really what it is about it's the way well to go back to the root Oikos the ways of keeping home the ways of taking care of each other or you could say the the ways that human beings connect gifts and needs the ways that human beings coordinate labor and creativity and make collective decisions about what to create how to use resources and how to relate to the human and other than human world all of that should go under economics it's understandable why economics has come to mean the study of money because all of those things I have named are being subsumed underneath the money umbrella even in my own lifetime there's a lot of human activity a lot of relationships that have become monetized that were not when I was a child and certainly not when my father was a child like for example things like like well childcare we rarely paid for that when I was a kid like it was a rarity that you would send your kid to pre-k there wasn't such thing as pre-k because people not only like housewives watching the kids but the neighborhood kind of watched the kids there was always something to do you go outside and you play with other kids play was not something you purchased childcare was not something you purchased cooking was not something you purchased if you go back another generation entertainment was usually not something you purchased my father tells when he was a kid this is the 1940s every Sunday afternoon the whole neighborhood would get together people would have guitars they would sing folk songs this was yeah and this was not in like you know like hippie village this was in like a normal American suburb in st. Louis like this was normal for human beings so all of those things and many many more have become have migrated into the money realm and that means that the economy grows anytime that you do something for somebody and you're not getting paid then that does not count as part of the economy but if you pay for it like like if I like say like you know you know you babysit somebody's kids and you don't pay and they don't pay you but then like they have you over for dinner and you don't pay them for dinner no that is not considered an economic good-in-service by an economist it's only an economic good-in-service if you go to a restaurant if you pay a professional babysitter so here we have more and more of human activity entering into the monetized realm to the point where where you can have like a close friend and I mean I've had this experience like I have a friend who does like a certain amount of relationship counseling you know but she's kind of thinking of getting into that you know but she's not like a professional and like like this was years ago you know and I call her up you know and get her advice and she's like okay I'm creating a program you know and like all of a sudden she wants me to pay for it pay for it like this is even friendship migrates into the monetized realm it's called life coach the functions like the function the function that was once served by wise elders by by wise uncles by wise grandmothers by by shamans you know like that function has also become monetized so when you look at statistics like you were showing about the percentage of the world that lives on less than ten dollars a day less than five dollars a day less than one dollar a day how is that possible like could you live on less than five dollars a day gosh those people must be miserable huh it's possible because they still live to some extent in a gift economy they source what they need without money they don't pay for childcare they don't pay for insurance because if your house burns down then people get together and help you build a new one you don't pay for for you know movies and things to download on your device there's things happening in the village you don't pay for many of the things and so you of course you can live on less than five dollars a day are you a hundred times more miserable than somebody who lives on five hundred dollars a day probably not because where do you find the happiest people on earth is it in the Hamptons or is it in a remote village in Bangladesh or among the caro or like pretty much anywhere if you if you've traveled the world you know even in places where there is like genuine like destitution like where people are food insecure still they they they generally speaking they seem a lot happier sometimes because they have community because they have relationships to to place to people to place to community to nature to the soil to the water to the to the features of the land they have a name for everything that they see and it's not just a name it's not just like you go to your botany app and you can name and memorize the names of these plants they have a relationship with those plants maybe they use it for medicine maybe they use it for food maybe they use it to make stuff maybe they have a story about that particular hill where something happened to my aunt and so everything is woven together though that's called wealth when we don't have that then we need money to at least get some compensation for what has been lost so how has this happened maybe I'll tell you a little story here I think this is the one I'm gonna gonna offer for your book it's a game of musical chairs okay so I mean you can imagine us getting together and playing a game of musical chairs you know how you play the music plays and there's there's how many people here 50 people but only 45 chairs are set up and so when the music turns off then everybody rushes for a chair and if you're without a chair then you lose and you're out of the game okay so once upon a time there was a big game of musical chairs like this and they made it more interesting though hundreds of people but a few less chairs than that five percent less chairs but if you miss a chair if you don't get a chair not only are you out of the game but you lose your house and you can't feed your kid and you don't get medical care all right make the game interesting okay and then so the music stops everybody goes for the chair and you see people pushing and elbowing and shoving and and just this free-for-all because people are desperate to get a chair and maybe a few altruistic souls forgo their chair and let the pregnant mother have the chair instead those are the altruistic exceptions to the general rule of human nature and watching this melee is a committee consisting of an economist a politician who else should we add in there a priest how about a priest well that that'll that'll count as the economist there's some some some viewers you know and and a biologist let's say that too and and the economist says look at that human nature maximizing rational self-interest that proves it and the biologist says yep that's what it is just like in nature maximizing reproductive self-interest red in tooth and claw and the politician says yeah lucky thing they have us around to keep order otherwise they tear themselves apart we make some rules at least that they can't kill each other for the chairs and the priest says yeah you know what I'm gonna go in there and convince them to be nicer to each other instill some morality what nobody is asking and what we have to ask is why who decided that there were going to be less chairs than there are people and this translates into the debt question because if you haven't noticed our current economy looks very much like that game of musical chairs and it doesn't matter how yeah I mean you can be a nice person and forego your chair and be really generous and support others and not try to exploit them but then you end up without a chair you end up without the ability to make a living to pay for food to pay for all the things that are no longer provided by a gift economy so this obviously does not serve the people who are left out does not serve the people who are desperately striving to keep their heads above water and make their debt payments and ironically it doesn't even serve the people at the top of the top of the pyramid they get a substitute for real wealth if that's all there is then yeah you're better off at the top of the pyramid than at the bottom but does it have to be a pyramid what happens if you organize the game differently what if you have an equal number of chairs as people then there's still maybe some competition maybe some of the chairs are more comfortable for some people within others some are higher some are good for people with long legs you know so people people like different chairs there's some trade there might still be some competition but it won't be baked into the rules of the game like it is now and it's simply because of the way that money is created as interest bearing debt which means as I think you were saying means there's always more money than there is debt because it's lent into existence more debt than money that's what I said more death than there is money and I don't know like it feels like a bit too luxury to explain that people had used to have no idea and now it's pretty well known how money is created so I'm not going to really bother to to go through that whole process but basically what it means is that we're always in competition with each other for never enough money so let's talk about reversing that and also to make it maybe appropriate like relevant on a local level not just on a systems level on a systems level I mean we could talk about negative interest systems we could talk about other monetary systems that do not that are not created as interest bearing debt and that gets there's like all kinds of details that are not interesting to everybody here so I'm probably not going to talk about them a lot but you know for negative interest systems is a problem with centralized control and anyway it's a rather so it's a rather long discussion but I do want to talk about reversing this progression of life into money of relationships into services and of nature into products that has been going on for a very long time and that that is I'll relate that to the game of musical chairs because because money is lent into existence if I'm a bank who am I gonna lend money to am I gonna lend it to Josie who wants to start a revolution roll call and and I'm like okay that sounds beautiful Josie so you want $500,000 what's your business plan to pay me back are you gonna be charging people a lot of money for revolution roll call you know it sounds great but you know how are you gonna pay me back don't have a business plan okay you know sorry I guess I really can't lend you that money even though I'd like to because the bank has got to make a profit I'm in competition with other banks and there's regulators looking over my shoulder etc etc and ultimately it goes down to we're all compete like this bank is not alone in competing for never enough money sorry instead I will find someone else great yeah like maybe you have a business plan which is you know like there's this wetlands out there and I'm gonna pave it over and build a strip ball and and I'm like let me see your business plan and you show me the numbers I'm like yeah that looks pretty good there's money in that and you're like maybe you're even like you know Charles I really don't want to do that but you know my other business plan didn't get alone so here we are and so okay so basically here's the general principle I the bank or really the entire financial system in aggregate will lend money to those investments that are going to be able to pay them back that are going to be able to generate even more money and that's how the whole system works more and more money has to be lent into existence to pay back the interest on the previously lent money which means the economy has to grow and grow and grow forever the economy has to grow forever otherwise it stops working and when it stops working you get defaults you get depression you get economic depression you get layoffs you get you get investment freezing up so the government is under huge pressure to maintain a positive rate of return on capital they set up the whole system to facilitate people like me lending money to people like Greg yeah and so so so that's that's how the game of musical chairs is related to endless growth and that is why over the course of my lifetime more and more has entered the money realm and now we have a chance to go the other direction to reclaim life from money and that part of that is on a systems level like like all those beautiful organizations that that Aaron showed us they're kind of going against the current not everybody can do that in the current system a systems change is necessary to however what these companies and organizations and individuals are doing is they're creating a template for a different kind of economy and they're normalizing a different way of thinking and they're creating relationships that will that are are kind of on the margins of the dominant system now but but if and when the dominant system freezes up and collapses or there's a moment of crisis where we awaken to the choice that is actually inherent in our systems that we are have been blind to then we have the seed of something new and so I see in Boulder just from you know I've had a bunch of visits here you know and I know that there's a lot of that actually going on people rebuilding structures of reciprocity rebuilding systems of gift rebuilding community people who in one way or an or another are doing things for each other and it's not because they're being paid to this is a form you could even call it a form of investment called called generosity which is the well two element one of the two elements of gift economy one element is generosity the other element is gratitude yeah one time I was speaking at an economics conference obviously it was not a mainstream one and and and the the speaker before me god I haven't told the story for a long time I you know I mean I don't talk about sacred economics so much anymore because I wrote that book like quite a long time ago but anyways someone the speaker before me was talking about the the the delusion of what he called fiat currency and the necessity to move to gold and he said it's all gonna fall apart you better have physical gold and okay for one thing I'm gonna detour for my detour here like there's nothing wrong with fiat currency what fiat means is to declare something into existence and money fundamentally is a declaration it is an agreement among human beings it is a story of value even gold actually has value because people agreed it has value I mean yeah it can make it's kind of useful you can make pretty things out of it it's good for electronics you know but if it were that useful then it would not be the case that two-thirds of all the gold ever mined is sitting in vaults dug with with intense effort from one hole on the ground and put in another hole in the ground and it's economically I mean environmentally devastating gold mining yeah it's insane anyway so there's nothing wrong with fiat and in fact we have to embrace actually embrace the the social and political dimension of money it is about human agreement we cannot escape that and export that onto an algorithm and I'm not saying that I'm not actually against cryptocurrency I'm just saying that those politics then just take a step backward and they are they're embodied in the algorithm itself who decides what algorithm to use who decides who gets to create money that is a sacred function the creation of money is a sacred function in every society ancient societies it was the king or the the temple that created money and and and so today it is the Federal Reserve that creates money that can be questioned but we have to remember that it is a sacred function anyway so I sit so so I got up and I gave my talk and one of the questions was well Charles what do you think about gold you know don't you think that we should have some physical gold in case of economic collapse and I said if there's a collapse to that degree where like even the dollar is worthless probably the most dangerous thing you could do is have large amounts of physical gold because men with guns will come and take your gold and unless you're gonna like unless you aspire to be a warlord you know and like like hire lots of guys with guns you know and pay them and prevent them from like taking the gold you know and having some system of control like I don't know maybe some of us are cut out to be a warlord here but but like most people probably don't have that particular skill set yeah yeah okay so there are guys you got but but generally speaking you know men with guns will come and take your gold you don't want to have a lot of gold what do you want what what survives collapse what survives crisis yeah yeah people will come to your bunker and take all your stuff you know like and and even if they don't even if you have your ar-47s and you're like protecting it all what kind of life is that that kind of sucks so I said the best investment you can make is generosity because whatever you give to the community and you generate that goodwill and you generate those structures of taking care of each other that is a an investment that is a savings account that that fires cannot burn and thieves cannot steal what you give is the only thing that cannot be taken when through a transition in state and that's actually even true through the death process like you know it's the same the same basic energetic configuration there you are in your deathbed and you can't take any of it with you can you can't take your money can't take your possessions you can't take your reputation you know wherever you're going no one remembers what you did here you know you can't take anything with you what what do you think about in those times what what is in the world and and cannot be lost it's what you've given to the world and at some point in their lives everybody realizes this and and as death approaches that realization becomes more and more lucid and you see in at least in a society with healthy transitions to elderhood you see that is what elderhood is it's it's an elder somebody who knows they're going to die and has really taken that in and they become very generous they're not in there they're not ambitious anymore and so there you are in your deathbed and everything that you've given that is that's where your joy is and in some sense then you could have you know teachings of heaven or karma or something where where in fact you do kind of take it into the next existence but anyway if we are facing a time of turbulence and I think we are where everything that had seemed reliable is proven to be a mirage and it can happen you know wealth can be a can evaporate overnight or it can be confiscated can disappear in many ways then what do you have how do you be resilient in coming times it's a kind of a paradox that that question might come from self-interest how do I protect myself in coming times but the answer is that it can't be just about myself it's the community that I forge and that and community is built from two elements from gift and from story and I would like to see this this realization take hold just as it does in a person approaching death where you understand now what's important I would like it to take hold in a civilization and in a society that is also in a death process and I'm not saying that civilization is going to go extinct but it's a metamorphosis what is ending is society as we know it potentially it's actually the think that it was inevitable that we would transition to a more beautiful world because the crises would converge and birth us into a new world through a process of collapse and rebirth like a like a birth process expelled expulsion from the womb and now I come to think that it's more of a series of choices of intensifying severity of conditions where it's like an addict on the downward spiral when does he hit bottom for one person it might be when in when his wife runs out leaves him for another person it might be when he gets sent to prison for another person you know it might be like not until he's ends up in the hospital and for some people there's they're still smoking cigarettes through their tracheostomy to you know that's how addicted they are like where do you hit bottom like there's a series of choices here so what I can say I cannot I will not say that that crisis and collapse are going to save us save us from what save us from our choice save us from our agency no but they have a they bear a gift and the gift is that they illuminate choice they give us an opportunity to choose consciously to say wow we've been going in this direction blindly this direction of of of phony wealth this this direction of monetization this direction of of the of domination of nature and we were blind to it but now we see and we have an opportunity to take a different direction and so this is the significance of the work of a lot of people in this room you're you're showing what that alternative choice could be by example what it could be for agriculture when when the crisis lands and there's this moment of this is not working there's something else that has been developed on the margins and that is now ready and and you could say the same thing about education the same thing about about health care like I'm sure many people in this room are are are creating the seeds of a future world these are our elements of an of a different timeline than the one that we are on that shows itself into our timeline and I would also say maybe that that in a way money has served us well money as we know it money as created by interest-bearing debt generating competition compelling growth it has suited humanity in a growth phase and we've been as a civilization we've been like children growing up developing art gifts taking from the mother which is normal for a child to take without question from the mother that time is or should be ending and we're understanding that now we're understanding that there's a limit to what we can take if we want to have a living planet I don't think ecological collapse is going to save us either though the future that I'm afraid of is not one where we destroy the environment we go extinct that that's not as bad as what I'm afraid of which is that we destroy the environment we don't go extinct and we have had we live on on an entire planet that's been made into one big toxic waste dump and parking lot with almost nothing alive and growing all our food and factories and hydroponics farms lab lab grown meat you know like precision fermentation carbon capture machines to modulate the atmosphere you know spraying this bleaching the sky white with sulfur aerosols and aluminum particles I mean these experiments already happening actually everything I'm saying is underway I mean you think that that we that we that we just would not accept a dead planet well guess what we're already two-thirds of the way there do you guys know about the insect apocalypse you know like somewhere depending on the place 80 to 94 percent of insects are gone you don't see bug splatter on the windshield anymore do you yeah I mean used to be like you'd have to have like you have to have your windshield wipers on sometimes yeah what happened to that you know so so we're already like 80 or 90 percent of the way there if we're gonna change it isn't gonna be because we're finally forced to change that would have already happened it's already bad it has to be a choice a choice of what a choice that we're gonna live on a living planet we're gonna devote our society to beauty instead of growth to cooperation instead of domination it's a choice and that choice lands on us personally every day and through the personal choices we make every day we issue a declaration to God a prayer that says here is what I want here is what I'm praying for and I'm proving it by my choice we're we're making a statement about human nature here is the choice of human being does when there is a choice between life and control between life and safety between gift and domination here's the choice a human being makes and each one of those choices generates a morphic field and the same choices start happening everywhere else so it's a choice and I guess I want to you know and this is something like so like obviously here this is what you might call a spiritual dimension to economics like yeah your individual choice there's no rational pathway by which that's going to change the entire system but for sure if you do not make that choice what hope do you have that those in power will make the equivalent choice or anybody will make that choice if you're not making it and that's why I like to say that cowardice births despair so we see that there's a there's a spiritual dimension to the economic question which is kind of obvious right like we look at the economic crisis and we know that that this isn't just like some technical tweak that we can make to fix the problem this crisis goes all the way down to the bottom of what it is to be human in our time and what we are called to do is to launch a different kind of human beingness than what we have been brought up in a different relationship to each other a different relationship to the world a relationship where it's not just taking from the mother anymore because we've fallen in love and this is a mature love relationship that we are being invited into again we're not going to be forced into love we're not going to be scared into love we're not going to be bribed into love we're not going to be threatened into love and that that's some of the biggest strategic and rhetorical errors of the environmental movement to try to bribe and threaten people into love no that's not how it works it's a choice and the choice is not just to take but to give also to co-create that's what mature love is and so we don't just strip from the soil we know that we and it's not just like a self-interested calculation that if I enrich the soil and build the soil that it'll be good for me too it's I love the soil I'm a partner with the soil I love the worms I love the biodiversity I feel at home again I feel wealthy again because I'm in relationship to all these beings it's not just a medium for growth it is it is a community and I'm part of that community that's what we want that's the choice that we face and and that's soil and you could talk about that in in many many other realms so I'll I'll I'll leave it up to each of you to sense the presence of that choice in your own lives and and I don't want this to be like a you know an exhortation to start choosing no like no it's more like first a moment of like inner celebration and acknowledgement for like the choices that you've already made that are in service to a more beautiful world that are in service to life that are coming from love of this beautiful planet and to know that none of those choices were in vain even if your campaign failed in its objective to stop fracking or something like that it still made a statement it's still created a morphic field and so to to so to celebrate the choices that you have made and then also to nod to that part of you that is ready and willing to continue making such choices and to bring them to new areas of your life where they have not been active before and acknowledging that readiness starts a process in motion where you don't have to force yourself to do it this is not another arena for domination inner domination a war on the self that reflects the war on nature you know you see like the with the ways of the old story are very subtle they they they come out even sometimes in our efforts to build a life in a new story so yeah thank you for honoring me with this invitation and with your attention and yeah that was beautiful I like the invitation my mind right before you said I said it's an invitation you make a choice more and more of us are choosing yeah and one way to help that choice along is to know the it's the opposite of what the economist biologist politician and priest thought about the people playing musical chairs that they're in it for themselves and so forth it's to actually be able to relate to other people and know that they want to make that choice and maybe it's hard maybe they're scared maybe they have other habits maybe they've been indoctrinated in ways that make that choice seem naive or irresponsible but if you can hold that knowing that that I know who you really are you're somebody who's here for the same reason I am we're here in service to life I know you and I will remind you and I will create opportunities for you to exercise that choice then we become powerful that's a totally different kind of leadership than than control based leadership yeah I was pointing to you yeah I think carbon markets are very limited in the benefit that they can have and often they have a perverse effect they make things worse because the main thing is there's a lot more to ecology than carbon earth is alive and when we destroy her organs we destroy the planet's ability to maintain a healthy climate a stable climate and so like a lot of what happens now in the name of reducing carbon emissions is to destroy ecosystems through a vast expansion of mining for the materials to make wind turbines and batteries yeah yeah right yeah I met a woman she was Romanian and and she like was she like you know grew up in Romania then went then you know lived in the US and then went back to Romania to like visit you know to like she became curious about her ancestry you know visited her grandmother and like Romania has like some of the only old growth forests in Europe and the logging truck after logging truck after logging truck destroying the entire thing it just broke her heart and then she tried to find out where they going they were going to woodchipping factories to make pellets to feed to converted coal power power plants that then got carbon credits and so like what's the problem here the problem the problem is when we try it when we imagine that we can measure a sign a metric a single quantity to ecological health and then monetize that metric then we're going to we're going to run into all kinds of problems like that because the people who design the metrics going to be the same people who profit from them and we have to understand that that that nature is sacred and and we cannot simply value it by its carbon sequestration capacity now that said there are people who can kind of game the system and get funding to do really great stuff using carbon markets and carbon crows so like you know I'm not going to say don't sully your hands with you know engaging the the the mainstream system you know like I think there's good arguments we made for working in the system working outside the system like it's not cutting dried and so some people are really doing good things like funding regenerative agriculture building soil getting carbon credits for that so yeah but then there's some people who are gaming the system like planting fast growing trees that get carbon credits really fast but then deplete the ground water and create a desert and soil and soil yeah so yeah yeah I'm curious here there's I think one more people are aware of the stressors on our planet and our society and for their own children their lives right so there's a lot of wealth generated by this system can you imagine how would you imagine how could you imagine some of that wealth being channeled to accelerate to fertilize things embedded more in the get to what you're talking about or is the shadow of it so big that it can't actually work that way you can't use top-down money to foster oh you definitely can okay yeah the fallacy would be to be to say I'm gonna make lots and lots of money so I can give it away yeah that's robbing Peter to pay Paul yeah but a lot of people like they have inherited vast quantities of money from their ancestors or from a earlier time in their life and then have a change of heart and there those people are crucial I think to the to the transition they're like because they can fund an awful lot of beautiful work so what would you want them to be like other specific principles or things that you want to be fun especially around the gift and we get it in sacred economics yeah there's what I would like to see and this actually has difficulty fitting into like tax law and stuff like that and and the law around flat walls around philanthropy but but just to like directly fund people who are working in the field who are like you know reintroducing beavers you know and not only not getting paid for it but like you know using their own money to support their hobby of ecosystem restoration you know people who are who are you know doing social and environmental repair and incredible work and they're like they're not applying for grants they're too busy actually doing stuff like all the best projects are on a shoestring because they don't have grant writers and they're not on the radar of philanthropists and sometimes they don't even fit into philanthropic paradigms so they don't have 501c3 right they don't have 501c3 you know they don't have an organization of that scale so but I'm not gonna say like here's the one thing that should be funded it's very much about relationship it's the thing that should be funded is a thing that moves you you know it's the thing that gets under your skin it's the thing that that that you're not just throwing money at it but you have a relationship yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah or you could look for a way to invest it in a systemic thing that's operating within the monetary system that's hopefully going to get to a higher level how do you think about it it's very practical you you you gather as much information as you can and then you choose based not on that information at all but based on the alchemical effect information has when you take it in and it forms your your perceptions and your care and then and and and the relationships that you develop and then something is inspiring to you you your rational mind may be able to say yes the reason that is inspiring is because I understand the hydrological effects of healthy forests and therefore I'm excited about this project to restore you know forest watersheds okay maybe but maybe what inspires you and excites you and moves your care is something that your rational mind cannot say why it's important but you trust that once that information feeds in and you're open to to to seeing things that maybe you had been blind to before like it's that kind of humility actually that creates the conditions for you to make wise choices that then lead to a fulfilled life yeah so it's really a body function yeah I'm getting kind of tired guys and I think a lot of people are also so maybe one or two more or something do you mind if I speak to this place that as it as it's called the mystery works there's a way that life's intelligence is animating us in ways that the system doesn't really understand that that has this action quite unpredictable for the intelligence is an artificial but quite real quite relational and some of the core function of revolution will call and mystery works is is actually an animation of a seed long granted by Charles actually not far from you at the integral center and that was the thing that there is a more beautiful way and of course every part of it every part of us says yeah of course of course but to actually have the courage to create that world like you're saying is is in relationship is in love isn't is in the rekindissance isn't actually making family again so that we can create our own like substrate actually soil for life to do that inoculation things that's inoculation where we're actually there's there's really mysterious forces that are actually in support of the kind of work that that saves life and and that regenerates it and so in the spirit that we're the mystery works and yeah the revolution is happening in May this next year and I just want to thank you Charles for for speaking to that piece about it's like what actually lights you up and trusting like desires of choice of choice and and that's actually how the evolutionary impulse works is when we're like I don't know why but I love this I don't know why but I did this everything and actually trusting that and finding a place where we can leave that together discovered intelligence that arises only from the imminent collective like the evidence of the collective so yeah yeah I don't know why but I love this that's that's that's life speaking life knows what to do and we are life like fundamentally who are you your life your life in this human form yeah I just want to mention I did bring some books and Aaron you have a square reader you can pay pay whatever price feels right to you could be the cover price for these books mine anyway could be the cover price could be another amount more or less whatever feels good to you in your particular financial situation question yeah I guess I'd like to know your perspective on what I see to be a problem I have a lot of respect for the idea of embracing morality on an individual scale and choosing life and choosing generosity is something that I think in your in your musical chair analogy makes sense for a small number of people and then as as societal pressures maybe make a larger number of people understand that there is a large number of those people who are choosing to sit in a chair but I think that from a precise standpoint there's only so much fresh water that can melt from Greenland before the oceanic dire sprees and the ability for everyone to get to that place yeah so I'm not I'm not offering you know gift economy and generosity as an alternative to working on a systems level like what makes you come alive what makes you say I love this I don't know why it could be work that that we recognize as political another thing there's one more thing I want to say about that but forgot what it was dang it we all get that but I'm just interested I should know but I don't how it just seems under reported about the amazing political opportunity that we have we have a better way here it it'll work great so what do you how do you feel about us together and you know making it happen with the truth in democracy well to the extent that we have a democracy which is not much but again like it again it's the same thing where where in a moment of of crisis and breakdown there's a window of opportunity to really change things and I think that that is coming not sure if it's really going to be mature in 2024 yet but by 2028 I think that that a lot of our conventional wisdom could be obsolete so so yes yes yeah ultimately this will have a political expression it has to it's not not just about you know individual stuff but the individual stuff is more powerful than we recognize because causality does not work the way we were taught it works we were taught it works when a force pushes on a mass that is Newtonian causality and that that mindset is itself very deep in the core of the mythology of civilization which is about mustering increasing amounts of force to be able to move dominate control more and more things in nature that's what progress technological progress has been but it's based on a very limited understanding of of change and of reality things can happen I mean what what we think of as possible is a very narrow part of the spectrum of possibility and that's and we tend to like take those anomalous things and kind of shunt them off into an alternative reality and say and keep them out of political conversations but I don't think that our politics is ever going to change if we keep those things out that are actually coming from the world view that we want to express in politics and that's why it's so important to for me like to constantly dip into the well of that which is outside the limits of conventional reality you know and I just like I just recently read I'm Maladoma Somay's book of water and spirit you know like beautiful book get the recorded version because it's him not just reading the book it's him speaking the book beautiful you know and you listen to a work like that and you're like okay if I really take this in and accept it as real not through a patronizing anthropological lens not through the patronizing lens of well we must respect other cultures but actually like this actually happens this is actually possible what does that do to your life when you feed that information through your intellect into your body what different choices will you make what assumptions were you holding that are not necessarily true about how change happens in the world so this is this is this is important you know that that we are more powerful than we were taught yeah yeah I'm getting tired guys I feel like it's time to wrap up time to wrap up yeah because there's like more and more I mean this is really beautiful and and I mean this is also why like I mean another another thing for community you know to really yeah to fertilize these these ideas and and and yeah I'll be back in Boulder but really thank you everybody for your attention