 Howdy, howdy folks. This is Anthony dream Johnson co-founder of the red man group CEO 21 studios here with today episode 104 of the red man group on sex dominance and submission today I'll be joined by two 21 convention alumni speakers That'll be Alan Roger Curry from direct approach dating calm and Pat Stebbin from Pat Stebbin calm Recently put out a few previews of Pat Stebbin speech his first one He gave in 2019 of the convention those you'll see on 21 studios and the full speech will be out soon And Alan Roger Curry. We just put out a second speech at the convention from 2018 That's been kicking ass on YouTube on 21 studios came out just recently about two days ago now That was on how manipulative time wasters exploit naive men very subtle title I'll bring a minute a second But before we do today show is sponsored by 21 University calm the world's most positive videos for men You can start there with a free 30-day trial you get early access to 21 convention speeches and red man group episodes They have no ads very clean very pro and we have iPhone apps coming out soon to iPhone and Android Without further ado, I'll be welcoming here Alan Roger Curry and Pat Stebbin to today's show Welcome boys. How you doing? Good good. Good. Thank you for having me good to be here Anthony. Yeah, good to see both of you again, man Pat you've been on the show a couple times before Alan. This might be your first time first or second Yeah, this is the first time I've done your Live version at 21 what convention but other than that. No, this would be my first time Nice, you actually saw a clip of that last night that one you're on with Socrates and Rich Cooper back in the day There were some guys on Instagram that pulled it and they're cutting clips out of it I didn't even know them people were tagging me and stuff and it was kind of funny, but it was good. It was savage So cool Also two guys Pat Stebbin doesn't have a book yet, but Ralph Ridge Curry has several books. This is my I think his most famous ones mode one It's what he's known for you can find that on Amazon He also has the beta male revolution and a few others like I think The possibility of sex Then I have a ooh said again mastering the fine art of verbal seduction and erotic dirty talk Yeah, that sounds good. I need to get it Yeah, so today's episode guys for you watching, you know live and then later on we're gonna talk about sex dominance and submission So to give some background to this I've been involved in the pickup community in the wider manospheres and so I was very young 17 and that was 2005 and since then I've seen you know, it's been there But very minimal content on sex how to get better at sex how it relates to game how it relates to personality How it relates to relationships? It's always been I think kind of neglected Especially in the 2000s There was a huge obsession with Alan remembers this because he was notorious for a direct game But back then the big rage was like indirect game versus direct game And I think the other day Alan's side kind of won out an indirect game This kind of avoidance strategy with women is waned off But throughout this time early things sex needs to be focused on a lot more and it hasn't that today will be kind of addressing that So my first question you guys as we open up this Discussion is how does sex relate to just picking up women as separate from long-term relationships separate from marriage separate from anything like that For young guys learning how to pick up women at bars and stuff when they can go back to them after this lockdown stuff How does sex relate to that? Like what does it mean and how is it going to affect their game with women? Well, I think sex is number one sex is one of our top three most powerful needs and Impulses according to Maslow's Hierarchy of needs. I think number one, of course, is food and water Number two is is shelter and safety from danger. Number three is Desire for intimacy sexual intimacy and in friendship So but what makes the desire for sex so interesting Is that it's it's a powerful desire, but at the same time society almost socializes us To not be forthright about that desire To kind of almost suppress it Women are socialized to be present themselves as the proverbial good girls And men are socialized to generally present themselves as well-mannered gentlemen And we're taught from the time we're young to suppress our desire not really disgusted Particularly in our very early conversations and I think that causes a lot of confusion and frustration For both a lot of men and for a lot of women and that's one of the things that provoked my original book More one because when I was young like my mother she always taught me Be a gentleman When you're talking to women say all the right things, you know Flattering things and polite things and she's a good boy. Basically. Yeah, yeah, exactly. She would basically All of her advice was centered around Be a polite good boy She would tell me specifically never talk about sex The thing I found as I went through high school my first few years of college is that On the positive end I did develop this reputation for being a gentleman But on the negative end I was getting friends owned a lot And then finally I broke out of that as I told the story Well, I tell it in my book who said again But the first time you invited me to the 21 convention My major turning point happened in summer of 84. I was on this triple date And without getting through all the lengthy details That was the first time I just really bold and bluntly told a woman basically Hey, the reason I'm sharing your company right now is because I want to fuck I don't talk about the weather. I don't talk about your high school experiences I want to fuck And we ended up fucking. Yep. And I was never the same after that Eye-opening. Yeah. Yeah. So uh, there you go Yeah, well, I mean, I'd say that Having connection to your sexual energy is so important when it comes to game because You see a lot in pickup over the years is that guys would be would be learning all these techniques and Kind of like aping the behavior of somebody who maybe knew how to attract women knew how women's psychology works And even if they started to internalize that Everything at the end of the day comes down to the sexual interaction Everything before that is just a courtship A sort of foreplay to the sexual interaction. And so even if you know all that stuff about how to attract a woman Having issues on the performance side in knowing that deeper in your head Completely like it affects you on a certain level and women can really smell it. Yeah If you're a guy who knows how to how to fuck Right if you're you're a guy who knows what he's doing in bed That women women know that you're comfortable with that And some guys exude such a ridiculously strong sexual energy that You can really cut through a lot of the foreplay and move right to it because they they sense they know what you're about And they want it. I mean women love sex. They absolutely love sex. But as you know, Alan was saying That like being comfortable with the fact that you want sex That's like the biggest psychological hurdle I've seen for guys is that they feel like they have to conceal this Yeah, like no that that like yeah, enjoy the dance moving forward But the purpose of the entire thing is for sex. You want to fuck. She wants to fuck That so you this is like referring to a covert contract like dr. Robert Glover referred to you, right? Correct, correct And I mean I've said this before and I think it's sometimes Guys who are maybe in really bad marriages or really depolarized marriages can Sometimes misconstrue it but one of the things that that Dr. Robert Glover said in his book was about that like men and like relationships should just like say like I want to have sex And it's like that's really beta. It's like well, I get it like it. Maybe it's not the it's not the top level But it's a significant jump from I can't even express that I want sex and they kind of you know Dance around it and you know try to make it seem like oh, so, you know, what's up with you? Like how are you, you know, just trying to maneuver into her Offering it. It's a big jump to say hey, look, I want to have sex right now And honestly from what I've seen A lot of women are are like, okay. Yeah, and that is Like and that's not even anywhere close to a high level But just that one little paradigm shift Is it's so game-changing so you're saying that would be like a baby step getting out of a death spiral and a bad relationship Correct Because if you say and if she says no and then you can go off and do your own thing at that point Like the issue that guys have on a fundamental level is that they devalue their own sexual power versus a woman and they they feel that If if a woman doesn't have doesn't sleep with them that that it affects them in some way Rather than becoming really autonomous in their own energy and going off and Like don't chase a woman for sex and I think in a lot of cases You know if a woman doesn't doesn't understand this. This is why you this is why you like Go off and be with other women or you or you divorce or whatever because You can't allow her to control your sexual outlet So that's a really good segue. It's a little bit sooner than I was anticipating But I think we can kind of bounce around How does that relate to dominance and submission because a lot of what you just said pat and I think alan could hop in on this too, obviously Uh, like if she can control these things, how can you dominate her? And if that is indeed what she wants, uh, physically psychologically emotionally and all that, how are you going to do that? So there's what you're saying relate to that Or alan well from my experience, I would say that uh the starting point I tell my clients it starts with options um I use the analogy of an employer and an employee If you're interviewing a candidate For a job with your company And they come to you and say Oh, I want this job so bad. I want this job so bad. I have no other options For employment. So I really need to be hired by your company What's good? If you're an asshole boss, what's going to be your temptation? You're going to low ball them on the salary because you know, they have no other options And you you know, once you do hire them and you low ball them on the salary You're going to treat them like shit because again, you know, they have no other options And the same way in reverse say you you know, you were Head of a company and you're interviewing a candidate and you tell the employee candidate Man, I really need some workers. I don't have any other workers. Man. I need to hire you real bad I hope this works out Then they're going to be the asshole employee because they know you You desperate need of employees And the same thing works with with men and women in many ways It's like if you come to a woman with an underlying attitude like please please sleep with me I don't have any other desirable options for female companionship Well, you're asking that woman to treat you like shit to be manipulative as fuck To make you jump through a bunch of hoops because she knows you're not going anywhere because what else you're gonna do? Where else you're gonna go? and so The basis the first basis for dominance The way I see it is is when you're that employer Even if you had the most beautiful sexy woman Apply for a job at your company You can't allow yourself to be too quickly or overly enamored by her beauty and her sex appeal You got to find out. Are you a good fit for my company? And then you got to make sure She's going to do the job just like anybody else and if she fails to do the job like anybody else She can be fired like anybody else Trump's though you fired you fired No, alan. I mean, I love that analogy. I use I use a very similar one with my clients and her looks Are her application and she gets the interview If she's got the looks and she's got the femininity But she doesn't get the job if that's the only thing she has they offer There's so much more that she has to bring you to the table And Unfortunately a lot of guys they see a woman who's attractive And then it's like, please, you know, like I'll make you the boss, right? You can take over my company and it's just not the way you want to you want to think Yeah, like what alan said that it just invite I was interpreting it as basically you're inviting a lot of manipulative behavior and abusive behavior It's like what else is she what else is she gonna do? You're doing everything she doesn't want you to do she wants you to lead She wants you to retain your power and you're just pissing it away, you know the wind or at her or something So she ends up yeah I was kind of I saw pat recently on twitter was saying like how to pat was he was quote tweeting somebody about Some dude had I don't know married a hooker or something And I'm not on wood But pat was like pat was like man, how did dudes get themselves in these situations? And I guess it starts there You know if they throw away that dominance and that power that women don't even want in the first place Then I try to you know, should test you out of it, but they don't want you to win or they want you to win They don't want that they don't want to win that interaction It's funny. Uh, you said that Anthony going back to that that might what I call my turning coin story That's what that woman in that story did to me. She she shit tested me to essentially see Are you man enough to dominate me? You know, she didn't want me as you say she didn't want me to give away that power She wanted to she wanted to test me and once you could say I basically passed her test It was so amazing this woman as you know the story anthony It was a triple day that the beginning of the triple day say the first hour of it She was like this loud talking sassy mouth smart eloquent bitch And then when I did pass a shit test And I was more one with her Like within I'd say less than a minute literally Her whole behavior and demeanor changed Came like ultra submissive. It was almost like It was almost like she said, okay, you win. I'm your bitch. Yeah Yeah, and uh and that really if I that changed me like I would say for the rest of my life Because I was like So this is how it works I mean, seriously, I was like amazed but anyway, but yeah, that was a good point. You may ask me is that a lot of men I don't think some men consciously realize that they have power that they either Underutilize or worse. They give away And my question to them god, why are you doing that? Don't give away power that you have Like, uh, it's like shit tests are really just power tests They're testing how powerful you are And how how naive you are how powerful you are how much uh, how much strength you have internally to retain your power Rather than get tricked out of it or by her by society telling you bullshit about how to behave Yeah, there's a there's an idea that I think a lot of people who are in the evo evolutionary biology sort of scene put forward I know Jordan Peterson certainly does and I think it's helpful perhaps and understanding the mind of a lot of guys, but it's this idea that you know, sperm is cheap eggs are valuable and That you know, I think Peterson said that a woman rejecting a man is like nature rejecting the man And I don't think that that is an incorrect Analysis, but it's a partial analysis. So if you look at it, there's a really good book I don't know if if uh, if you guys have read it, but is there anything good about men? And um, it's by Roy Bomb bomb. How are I believe he's a really really prestigious psychologist? Uh Kind of like a thought criminal at this point But one of the things that he he points out is about You know the bands between men and women in terms of intelligence and ability And how on average men and women are Sort of the same But the men have a much larger band than women. So at the very very top of the scale men are Men like men dominate the talent and intelligent quotients But they also dominate the bottom with criminals and people who have mental disabilities So the point of this where I'm getting to it is that A lot of guys are thinking that women are above them But a lot of the guys, especially that we're working with Right, there's sometimes guys who are in like the top, you know, 10 percent of income in the country You know, they're they're in the top. They're they're way more fit than the vast majority of the population Objectively, they're actually way above most women. They're like a nine or they're like a nine On the scale and they don't realize it. And so this this concept for these guys like Oh, like, you know, the the eggs are like women are so important. I have to do this and that's like No, dude, if you want to even take that sort of biological determinist argument Your sperm is the most valuable And the women are sort of just like they all want you you are the important one And it's very powerful for a lot of guys that understand this perception shift to realize that They're lowering themselves as they're not even being objective about where they're at Yeah Yeah, I was just thinking I want to get into another topic But it just made me think too of all the guys I've seen I was thinking about tweeting this the day I've seen so many guys just in Orlando just in central florida that Are probably in that direction you're talking about they're the top They're much much higher in the in the percentage of the population than they realize they just have no idea And you'll see these guys they'll be tall, you know, six two. They'll be masculine You know build the puma masculine in a way physically Really good shape. Uh, look like they make decent money. We're in good clothes And then the girlfriend's like a fucking five. Yeah, and it's like it's I I wouldn't fuck this girl Like I wouldn't even get I wouldn't touch her. I mean, I wish for the best You know lose weight getting shape look beautiful if you can but Like these guys I would see above me even in the in the you know The smv and my age bracket and it's like why are you even talking to this woman? And then not only do you see dating or you'll see it, you know the interaction, but you know, he's like her Bitch It's like these bodybuilders that are like an you know amazing shape and who knows steroids or whatever But then they have this fat girlfriend who just walks all over them And it's like you could do so much better But internally they just have no idea oblivious. They have no idea Yeah, it's like if you're a nine act like it, you know, yeah Yeah Well, it's funny and then if you remember at that 2018 presentation, there was a brief portion at the beginning where I brought that up Yeah, we get what it was in response to but I was making the point that A lot of guys when they talk about a man's alphanus sometimes they'll solely and specifically concentrate on The the the physical appearance like how tall guys and or how much muscular he is And I'm basically saying what I'll do respect to you know guys who are super fit or ethnically tall whatever That that doesn't by itself Defined a man's alphanus it could contribute to it But it does not by itself because I know many men as you just alluded to Who were physically what most men would categorize as alpha But I would notice that their wife and I said a girlfriend would be just walking all over them and just treating them like Chompin a bitch Whoa, and even guys that if they were in Hand in hand combat with the average guy They would probably whoop that guy's ass and again for some guys just on that metric alone They would say oh that guy's alpha But that if it is if you're six foot three Full of muscles, but your woman just talks to you talks down to you Condescends to you and just treats you like a bitch. How how are you alpha in that regard? Yeah, that's something It's just a surface layer of alphanus is what it is It's like a shell And then I guess in america we see a lot I think I think due to feminism being around for so decades and decades and decades You know feeding people like these really bad ideas It creates like this paradox where they on the exterior you have plenty of these guys that are genetic You know genetic excellent specimens of a masculine man a human being a male But they're just absolute bitches inside and they've been the way for a long it's not even like a recent thing It's they've been that way their whole life. They were raised that way. They were that way as teenagers They were that way in their 20s and the 30s and so on That sucks. Yeah, I think it's interesting and also how some guys They they know how to compete against men. They know how to they may understand that they may understand that pecking order But they don't understand women at all. They don't understand how women operate And so to women they act like sims or they think that well if I can just overcome this guy Then she's going to want me which is a very much like the frame of that is very passive And they're actually interestingly enough the exceptions to that who are very often more like artist types Who are perhaps not so good at competing with men? on a masculine level But they understand how women operate and they can sleep with women very easily And I think unfortunately a lot of guys conflate those two things and and you can see the sort of white knight syndrome on a massive scale Or I'm going to beat up that guy like there was that video that went around It was somewhere in eastern europe, I think And there is this guy who like, you know, he was with this Apparently an attractive girl. I couldn't really see her face. It was one of those night vision cams, but the He like kind of beat up like hit the girl or something like that or was given her some crap Right and this other guy intervened. He was like trying to you know And then and he started again to a fight with this with this guy he was you know, this guy's girlfriend or you know, whatever side piece and And the guy who who had the girl like the guy who intervened the white knight got shot Oh my god And the girl left with the guy Oh my god Right, so it's like he it's just I mean, there's a lot of lessons to be gleaned from that, but Yeah, but yeah, you know, allen put it a really good way too. I think a little bit different from that Well related to that though and it's 2018 speech. I think it's the recent one that came out Uh, I think he was talking about in your speech allen Maybe you can refer to it or clarify it, but men will Do well sometimes like competing with other men, but then women will basically bully them And I hadn't seen it put that way before and I didn't mean I didn't even thought of that That's a really good way to do it You'll see a lot of these women who have been masculinized by feminism and culture and blue pill crap and whatever And you know the first chance they get a guy will fail a shit test and then he invites this and then she bullies him And then this is extremely unattractive and then it you know blows up in his face He gets a real estate in the friend zone who knows what but a lot of it's actually bullying behavior And you actually use the word bully which I hadn't heard used before in that context So that was pretty interesting allen Yeah, because a lot of men just on the word the term bully The most men associate that with another man Yeah, you know when they hear bully they automatically think of you know, they're The classroom bully from when they were in elementary or middle school Or when they went to college or a boss that was a bully, but it has male connotations to it But one of the points I try to make the man is that Women are just as good if not oftentimes better at bullying men than other men are They might not do it in the physical way, you know the number one way The average male bully operates is he'll come to you with the attitude of I want you to act the way I want you to act which is basically subservient to me And if you choose not to Your consequence will be i'm going to beat you up. I'm going to cause you Some type of physical pain Whereas women's bullying tactic is I want you to act the way I want you to act Which is subservient to me And if you choose not to I am going to withdraw the opportunity for you to fuck me I'm going to deny you the opportunity to fuck me and a lot of guys Give into that like especially if a woman is a seven eight nine or ten You know, those are the number one women who can usually get away with that and the guy Right. Oh shit. I don't want to lose The opportunity if they already are fucking that woman They're like, I don't want to lose the opportunity to continue to fuck them Or if they haven't fucked the woman yet They're like, I don't want to lose the opportunity to gain to fuck these women for the first time So they're like basically, what do you need me to do? You need me to spend money on you. You need me to buy you some clothes What do you need me to do? And think about it once women see you're willing to just give in to their demands like that Automatically in their mind, they've lost respect for you Even if they continue to interact with you Sometimes the woman will leave you alone because they just Develop that much contempt for you. You're like a backbone But other times if they're more manipulative they'll continue to interact with you But in their mind they've they've already lost respect for you. Yeah Yeah, I had a I had a fuck buddy a few weeks ago I've been banging her a couple times at that point and she wanted me to you know come bang on saturday night It was too. It was late. I didn't feel like doing it. They're really hot, too Like this girl is super hot and I was like, I just you know, I'm not doing it You know, whatever. See you later And she's then before I got off the phone She's threatening to call some other dude to come fuck her and I was like, oh cool. Go fuck yourself. Click She just blunt, you know text to tell me 10 text messages How dare you fucking hang up on me? I was bullshit But now that's really harsh. Like I'm not, you know, not every guy needs context specific that worked Um and my personality and the dynamic of this relationship But that's that's a much better option. I think for most guys and anything like you were saying I'm like, oh do this for you and all this subservient crap I just didn't feel like fucking her that night. I didn't feel like driving You know, it was late. I had to drink a radio. I was like, I don't feel like waiting to sober up Fuck all this shit And then the threat, you know, I knew it was bullshit. Anyway, I mean it could be real You know, she could call some other dude up. I was like, you cares. Go fuck yourself. Bye Yeah, and then she really trashes herself even more in your in your reputation, right? Because it's like, well, you're really just a slut Yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, I've already knew she was a slut. Yeah, I know. Yeah, obviously the first night I fucked her I was like, who's daddy's little bimbo slut? I was just rolling off the tongue. Yeah, daddy's little beach slut I was just making up shit beach bimbo. I was like beach slut She lived near the beach so So that's actually segue into something, you know, I was just kind of riffing on here but Well, let's do this first So in the mana sphere my experience of it with the pickup community and seduction community and everything beyond that Most of the time you see with sex anything related to sex advice and talking about it A lot of it tends to be technique specific. It's like do this not this all this bullshit But the other day we put out a video on to new and studios from a jay cortez one of her speakers And he proposed the idea that sex was like 90 psychological only tempers kind of mechanical in terms of being good at it Maybe even more defend, you know, fundamentally what it is, but also like getting better at it getting good at it having really good time So what do you guys think about that idea that sex is 90 psychological only 10 physical kind of mechanical Well, I actually first learned that um In human sexuality course in college Uh, I remember yeah, I took a human sexuality course and that was one I think the percentage was a little bit different. I want to say my professor's percentage was 80 20 but essentially the same thing but Yeah, he was talking about that during one of the classes. He said he said a lot of a lot of you men and women Particularly you men probably think sexual enjoyment and satisfaction is all about The physicality of the act and and as you said the mechanics of the act But he said actually that's wrong. He said sexual enjoyment and sexual satisfaction at least 80 percent of it Is psychological. I think he said psychological and emotional. He said psychological and emotional And he said only about roughly 20 has to do with then he gave a few examples like he said you could say Being bad with a woman that's beautiful and sexy, but I don't know if her one of her sisters just died or basically Her her mental space was somewhere else He said that's not going to be enjoyable sex Even though you might know all the right positions and how to move this way and gyrate this way He said her mind is somewhere else Thinking about, you know, again the death of a sister or the death of a grandmother, whatever it may be That's not going to be an enjoyable and satisfying episode of sex And so that was one example. See gave so Yeah, you know matter of fact and none of my books particularly my most sex-oriented book would probably be Who said again But I don't even talk about mechanics and in my books I I talk about things to do with erotic dirty talk And using that to your advantage because what I found It's and I said this in my presentation. No, I think this was in 2017 21 convention presentation, but I said A woman's mind Always bats a thousand Always bats a thousand what I mean by that is that A lot of guys will say to themselves. Well, if I do this it'll turn on and if I say this is a turn on And there there are some things you can both do and say to turn a woman on But what I like to do and this relates to my title will say it again I like to have women repeat things That are kinky or out of their character matter of fact, it's interesting or a quick side note I had a woman Listening to me being interviewed and I mentioned the same thing It this let me know I was on the mark She wrote me. She said Helen Why would you say what you said for free? And I kind of wrote us some smiley face. She said no, I'm serious She said you should never give away that for free. She said I know as a woman what you said was right on the mark But you should be charging for that. She said you should never say that for free But yeah, the thing I said essentially now I'm saying to give for free is that When we get turned extra turned on Hearing something come out of their own mouth. Yeah, this is an active submission basically, right? Yeah, so pray for a good example It's one thing for you to say to a woman I want you to suck my dick But it's another thing for you to say Oh, I would love, you know for my dick to be in my in your mouth What do you think say it to me tell me and then the woman says oh, I want your dick in my mouth And then in that moment that's when I would say oh say it again I want your dick in my mouth say it again matter of fact Here's another quick story I was uh with this woman. This is years ago And it's funny things you pick up just from watching the tea. I was watching this tv morning show And this woman was interviewing this uh diet expert nutrition expert And she was asking about the ins and outs of dieting So he he made this point. He said one of the biggest mistakes people make Is Um, oh saying that you're not going to eat your certain favorite food like he said like say your Favorite food is chocolate ice cream and you're on a diet. You should never say I'm not going to eat Chocolate ice cream and the woman hosting the show was like why is that then he went out on the uh the delineation of how your Uh conscious mind works versus your subconscious mind works and since then I've done my research on how both works I'm not going to get too linked in academic, but essentially he said When you say I'm not going to eat chocolate ice cream Your conscious mind hears that whole statement But the way your subconscious mind works It associates certain things with pleasure enjoyment satisfaction and other things with pain Frustration boredom. So all it hears is if you if you've enjoyed chocolate ice cream Your subconscious mind starts playing memories of you enjoying chocolate ice cream So even though you're saying I'm not going to eat chocolate ice cream all your subconscious mind hears is ice chocolate ice cream Chocolate ice cream chocolate ice cream now fast forward to an incident. I had with a woman We were working on an election and we got into these political debates and the night was wrapped and Down and uh first my one of my male buddies was going to give me a ride home. She said no, I'll I'll take allen on I Yeah, so so we go to this plane. I say hey, let's park and uh So then I just very boldly I said man, I can't wait To see your lips wrapped around my dick Yeah, she looked like How dare you allen? Oh my god. You're just so audacious. I can't believe you said that I said no, I I know my dick is going to end up in your mouth. She's I said, I know it is Honestly, I just boldly hit my past and just pulled up my dick. Mm-hmm. It's just a team You are really bold when in doubt whip it out. Yep. Yeah That what that dying guy said So she said she said well allen ain't the you know, but your bubble, but I'm not gonna suck your dick And I just very calm. I said, you know, she said no, I'm not I said, okay, then see it She said you want me to say that, you know, that's easy for me to say. I said didn't say She said allen. I'm not going to suck your dick. I said say it again. She said allen I'm not gonna suck your dick now fast forward to about the seventh or eighth time. She's just like Savage as fuck Next thing, you know, I said you're gonna suck why she said I'm gonna suck your dick But I just lower the head She says I hate you. Yeah My dick Because I knew her some kind of last my one exception I would have misjudged Is if she had had some kind of say, um traumatic experience sucking cock and I don't know call some kind of bad memory Then that's when that What I did with a backfire But other than that, I knew if she had enjoyable experiences in the past second dick That her subconscious mind was gonna work and it worked like a charm, man. It worked charm. So, uh There's an old um, there's an old christian saying i'm a christian, but i'm familiar with it and it's that words become flesh And I think this is what this relates to is if you say something enough times like that And this could be in almost any context, but especially with sex Yeah, I've done I have experiences similar to that alan not quite as down to the t but I've It's like a it's like a feedback loop they get into and like, you know a you know They still would you say the seventh eighth time all of a sudden her head's going down and your lap's sucking your dick It's like a little spiral they get into and yeah, there's no serious trauma there I think that's going to be pretty consistent for guys. That's a good tactic good technique yeah, and And that's that's a that the whip it out technique and and what you just said alan those are the techniques I think more guys need to be learning Because unfortunately a lot of the I don't know how much of this has to do with just sort of mainstream Cosmo sort of guide to sex that's been put out and sort of infiltrate its way into pickup circles But you learn a lot of you know, you understand the vagina right you understand You understand like where things are you understand how to do certain techniques and there's value to that Of course, there's value to that but the problem is that Guys have gotten almost into this mechanical thinking and I think it comes from frankly a lot of the women who put that stuff out there are Have severe have they have sexual dysfunction. They're like addicted to vibrators and stuff like that And so everything to them is really like a mechanical kind of sexual action to come basically So Guys who read that stuff they're thinking like all right. I got to make her squirt I got to do this this technique or I got to like touch her clit in this in this right way I gotta and what happens is that they're actual even if they get good at that stuff They're neediness starts to shine through and so maybe in the very beginning of an interaction with the girl They can they can give her a really amazing sexual experience because they just know how how women, you know, women's body is But over time They're going to start to lose frame in the interaction the neediness to make her come And to make her like to if I touch you here, you're gonna have a response It starts to collapse over time And that's why I think that this pushback that's been happening recently about you know shout the rivulino right face fucking this idea of pulling the the fundamental polarity back Towards the guy and the woman pleasing the guy because the the woman pleasing the guy pleases the woman Yeah, that other stuff. It's it's good to know but to not lean on it as a priority I was thinking too pat that back in the 2000s Pickup community and manasphere Even today you still see it but back then especially you'd see a lot of this instructional mechanical advice If there was any talk about sex it would be like this it'd be some Some long posts whether the guy was either full of shit or even like a keyboard Keyboard jockey or he knew his stuff and it was legit or some combination of the two But it was always this mechanical kind of thing And I wonder if a lot of that's just because guys who had drawn to the manasphere are like super analytical in the first place So they gravitate to the stuff either in person You know when they're going you know the beginning of relationship of the girl banging or whatever Or even just you know trying to figure it out in their own They just gravitate immediately to all this stuff like how do I like the mystery method? How do I formulate a fucking 10 10 step plan to like get in her vagina and then make her make a orgasm? And they know they don't they don't think about anything more fundamental to what's going on That's funny. You said that's super analytical, man. I remember when I spoke in London in November 2010 A lot of the guys who attended this particular conference Were really intelligent guys a lot of them had you know masters degrees phd's But in many cases their intelligence Was their weakness? Because they were overthinking over analyzed like everything Like literally like everything and I would just have to tell so many guys like You're overthinking this They're over analyzing this You know like well Ellen like if I'm talking to a woman and she takes her left finger And twirls her hair instead of with her right like what does that mean? Like, you know, and I mean like dude It's not that serious But they're always a lot of guys are always trying to see if What might cause what effect cause an effect? What does it mean if if I say this and then she says that What does that mean? And sometimes it would be on point it might be relevant, but uh equal if not greater number of times It was totally irrelevant to the point where I would tell guys For me, I would tell my clients just concentrate on what you want on what you want to verbally communicate to one What what desires interests and intentions don't try to anticipate What's going to be this specific reaction? What's going to be this specific response because the thing guys need to realize is that And this is one of the things that was one of my early epiphanies Is that a lot of women's reactions and responses cannot be taken on face value meaning Lot of times you could say xyz to a woman And she could seem to be giving you a positive response but It ultimately ends up with you and and her friends up Then on the flip side, you can be saying abc to argue another quick story Gig her perfect example speaking of london. I think I told the story when I spoke in london There was one time a female friend of mine in LA gave this party and she introduced me to this woman Let's call her danielle. She introduced me danielle And then, you know, I wasn't at the party for whatever reason I wasn't totally more worn with her like I wanted to be But then I ran into about a week later in venice beach area in LA and i'm like Not only more one, but what I call more one hardcore meaning that I was really like just x-ray triple x-rated language really explicit in the zone and At the time she has this negative reaction. She's basically like, oh my god, you know, you're an asshole, you know You don't have any home training. What's wrong with you? Who taught you how to talk to women this way? I mean she was going off of me and I'm naively at the time I bought into it, you know, I treated it basically like it was a negative reaction So she ended up saying, oh, I gotta go so now Fast forward a week. I'm talking to the original friend who hosted a party who introduced me to this woman and we're talking about different things And she says so alan I heard you ran into danielle That she said it like, you know like and I'm like Why why would he talk much? I said, yeah Basically, I told her I wanted to fuck her and she cursed me out. I said, what else is there to tell? And she was like, no Shut up Tell me the real story. I'm like, what are you talking about? I was bold one with her And she had a really negative reaction to it. And then she went And then I get curious. I said, why are you going home? And basically she and I'm saying she said that ain't the version I got I said, well, what's the version you got and she was like, well, I don't know if I should tell you I said, no, go ahead and tell me and then she just ended up showing me How women can be full of shit this she said when she talked to danielle after I ran into venice beach Her version of the story was danielle told her. Oh, I ran into your friend alan and oh my god He had my pussy dripping wet He's just so nasty He's incorrigibly nasty. He was talking my fucking my face and making me swallow his cum and Oh my god, he was just so nasty. I couldn't even talk him out of being nasty And it's funny sadly for me. I was her name at this time. It's like down on mid late 90s I was like, are you sure? She was like, yeah, I'm telling you. That's my girl. She talks to me on the run She said she couldn't wait to get home and pull out her vibrator And fuck herself thinking about all the nasty shit you said to her And I was damn so it was a learning list for me. That was one of the things I told the guys that helped me realize that A woman can be cursing you out to your face And calling all kinds of assholes and jerks than in her mind. She's like shit. This guy's fucking turning me on He's so bold and unapologetic about his sexuality. Fuck. I want to just drop to my knees and say But what prevents her is that little what I call the good girl voice on the shoulder I was I like to call it the little white angel good girl voice that says no, rachel. You're a good girl Don't act like you're a slut be a good girl So act like you're offended and and insulted by what he's saying so that he'll feel bad But yeah, man to hear that from her friend. Tell me that she couldn't wait to get home and masturbate. I was like You can't take these women's a lot of their reactions on face value Well, it's dissonance, right? Like they You know, you have the Madonna whore complex And you have many women will really associate with the sort of the Madonna on the good girl And then some I would not say the majority But they are very much associated with being you know the slot the whore but every girl has both inside of her and A girl who thinks of herself like you said Alan is a good girl She's gonna get dissonance when you turn her on like that And you and you and you say things to her that bring out that whore energy that she's not she's not comfortable with that energy at all But she still wants to experience it and it's still what turns her on and I actually think that like Amazing relationships. It's really about reconciling that stuff. It's about Bringing out that dirty from a from a girl who maybe thinks of herself as good and allowing her to be both And I think that you can also do the same And maybe a little bit more difficult for a lot of guys to get over themselves because a girl who's got that sort of whore energy She's certainly used it, right? But there's an account The honest misogynist and he talked about like turning a hoe into a housewife And you can do the same thing you can bring out the fact that you know, you don't just have to be You know, it's it's a little bit not relevant to our conversation here But you can you can get the best of both worlds from a girl But you have to be willing as a guide to go into both spaces And a lot of guys are they don't get like see all these guys who are like not getting her sexual best Well, they're not getting her sexual best because they're not connected to their own sexual energy They're not out of her, you know I would I would add a another theory to this as well. I've seen in some in my experience I've seen this to this behavior before too and it's Later, you always look back on it or you hear something like that like I'll went through and you're like, oh Fuck like the girl got me. But then she went home and was fucking jerking off to you literally in that case But I think also some girls who are actually on the horse side Of the terms of what they associate with the powers talking about I think they actually get greedy when they get like a really explicit Sexual provocation like that or experience Especially in a social setting like at a beach or something like that And they get carried away with testing you and they don't want to stop And they want to see how fucking explicit you're gonna get how intense is this guy gonna go And then they go home and jerk off to you and it's just like, you know, it's just fucking stupid both ways But I do think there's a minority of women who do that. They're just like They they are getting turned on they know they're getting turned on and they're just feeding you bullshit They know they're feeding you bullshit You're not quite sure if they're feeding you bullshit. And then even though you're being explicit So I think there's an element of like sexual greed And then it just ends up being kind of stupid for both parties But uh, but most of the time I think it would be more like, you know, she's just it's a distance to them That pal was talking about Or just not comfortable with it or whatever Well, going back to what you said pat Um A lot of what you said is actually what my book who said again explores In a few chapters like I uh, I have a whole chapter about the effects of the Madonna horror complex And what I basically create is this ranking system. I rate women In terms of their sexual sensibilities from one to five And for example of five and who said again would be a woman Who has such deep-seated social programming and cultural conditioning That she's trained her mind to only really listen to her good girl side And then a one would be a woman who's just the opposite She's totally free-spirited and sexually liberated Has no problem being open about her her slut side And then the twos threes and fours of those shades of gray in the middle And um, so yeah, you were correcting everything you said and the problem with a lot of men One of the biggest problems I see with a lot of men in regards to this you got some men who are so Judgemental And as you you mentioned not in tune with their own sexuality the combination too that they don't embrace both sides Of the woman like because like you said the 100% truth is that The vast jury women they have both sides. They have a good girl side to them and uh, a kinky freak side or side to them And as a man, you got to be willing to Embrace both sides and you got to be willing to give women permission to open up to both sides But a lot of men foolishly they shoot themselves in the foot because of their own judgmental attitudes They don't allow that to happen You if you want a woman to really share her full Fantasies with you if you want her to really surrender to you fully and really feel like you can trust you fully you have to You have to be approaching her in a non-judgmental way and when she shares that stuff she shares something about You know she has a fantasy of being of sleeping with another with you know with with two guys, right? Or she has a fantasy of having like Three sons with girls You can't judge that you can't judge that stuff from her if you want her to really open up and And allow that entire stuff out because she's trying she may feel a little uncomfortable with it herself Or she may sense that you're not secure enough in yourself To be able to to handle that and I think a lot of guys unfortunately Uh, you know, they want their cake and eat it too They want they want a woman to completely surrender to them, but they're actually not willing to receive The woman's full surrender There you go. Yeah to be responsible for it. Yeah Yeah, I was seeing a Gortez in his speech that came yesterday The 21 convention in poland was talking about that. Let's actually talk about that here So a Gortez was talking about that responsibility associated with dominance and submission and things like that But also the difference the question he got asked by an audience A member of the convention was the difference between dominance and domineering Which is something I've heard a little bit in the manisphere, but in wider culture. There's usually no distinction, unfortunately I think there is so do you guys have thoughts on that dominance versus domineering? In a short-term relationship or a long-term one, you know, however you want to approach it I would say that domineering comes from a position of ego And more it's more of a projection. It's more of like a bravado Right. So it's it's I want everybody to know that I'm like it's like trying to over control things And it's I want everybody to know that I'm that I'm the boss rather than implicitly being it Being dominant is like a state of of energy And you if you talk to someone if you talk to a woman Right, she's going to feel that from you whereas if you're domineering You're trying to push farther into overcompensate in some way and it is true. I mean, unfortunately, there's a lot of red herrings and so or whatever being done with with you know feminist about About masculinity, right? They they tend to take the distortion And elevate the distortion like this is what being this is what masculinity is Like being a dominant man is being this person who doesn't care and runs rough shot of everybody else It's like no, that's a distortion. That's not actually what it is But being dominant and being masculine Are healthy there you're aligned you're you're aligned with yourself. You're aligned with truth, frankly is my perspective And women naturally they feel a trust around that they feel a trust because they feel that you don't need to show it You don't need to overcompensate with it. It's there Yeah, I would I would generally agree with that. Uh, I know in my btsm experiences number one thing man need to realize is that There's a fine line between being uh dominant and abusive and um And so there's some man who I listen to certain podcasts certain live streams They think certain women should should be feminine and submissive to them just by virtue of them Being a member of the male gender and relatively life. That just doesn't work that way and um And one thing like we talked about earlier About men Coming across as needy You can't really be needy and dominant at the same time That's almost oxymoronic and uh the underlying of any btsm dom is that You can be replaced at any moment. Just like going back to my employer employee analogy You can be replaced and see like that that's one of the reasons why i didn't like the uh That first movie version They had three parts. So this would be part one of 50 shades of gray Is they had the character of christian gray? He was supposed to be this btsm dominant, but he was so Like emotionally sensitive and needy Wounded and I was like they don't they don't jive, right? They're not in the real btsm world that They just didn't that just didn't play to me. It didn't resonate with me Because yeah, there's a certain calmness with your dominance When you're a btsm dom and so yeah when I think of the domineering I think it's somebody that's there's overbearing Abusive a borderline abusive and basically everything that uh pat described like frantic and stuff. Yeah and That's that's not really sexually appealing to any woman but um Yeah A lot of women I'm not gonna say all women of course, but a good number of them Well, I'll say this there's some women who want to be dominated by men And they have no problem letting you know that in your early conversations with them Then there's some women Who want to be dominated by men, but again as we already talked about about some of the shit testing They're not just going to come right out and say it They're going to basically shit test you in one way another and see If you're worthy of leading them In dominating them based on how well you pass it just matter of fact, there's In the black community there's this legendary pimp Name iceberg slim real name is uh robert beck. I think it's for me. I've heard I've heard of the name Yeah, iceberg. So he wrote this book called pimp. He used to be again a legendary pimp in 70s and 80s He wrote this book called pimp the story of my life and one of the excerpts he has in there He was he was talking about a woman being a bitch, which was interesting. He said He said i'm paraphrasing last words, but essentially he said a lot of people think because i'm a pimp That all my whores would automatically You know get in line And follow all my demands commands and requests. He said no, that's not the truth He said a lot of my whores would basically shit test me to see if I was worthy Of dominating them and he said this is what i've come to find about a woman He said he said basically he said there's only two times a woman's going to act like just a straight up bitch towards you is a When she's convinced that you don't have what it takes to lead and dominate her and they don't respect you They think your your bike bone is non-existent So they're gonna act like a bitch towards you Or the second time he said a woman's gonna act like a bitch towards you Is when a woman thinks you have the potential you have what it takes To lead and dominate her, but you're not showing it yet Yeah You haven't refined it yet and she feels like she needs to give you a nudge or You know a lot of fire under a lot of fire underneath your butt To provoke you to to to reach your full potential as a leader and a dominant Even to even to verify it like trust and verify Yeah, yeah, so uh but uh Yeah, man, it's it's uh like You know most people my followers know i'm engaged now which surprised a lot of my followers But i'm engaged and i got a son on the way and uh, honestly my relationship has uh A lot of elements of bdsm. My fiance is is very ultra feminine ultra submissive and You know our relationship like we haven't had i want to say we haven't had one argument yet Like i hear guys someone they argue with their girlfriend and they argue with their wife You know i lay things out at the beginning I we even have a bdsm contract and uh I don't have any problem Yeah, and uh because she she's she's just Natural desires to be feminine. She's very uh submissive to me Now we you know, she's allowed to she respectfully is offered disagreeers like if i say i don't know We should eat chicken wings. She were respectfully say well, you know, what about lasagna, sir or something like that? But But uh other than that, you know, we don't have any heated exchanges none of that and that I remember this article came out in 2013 where they had done this survey and they actually ranked uh marriages and relationships that had elements of bdsm principles cause a higher degree of peace of mind And more romantic and erotic passion and there was one more than peace of mind higher I think it was just third thing. I think it was just less arguments as already mentioned Compared to traditional marriages and traditional relationships. They had no You know bdsm elements involved in it And i've seen that in my own relationship Yeah, I know one of our speakers texas dom. I think you met him in 2018. Oh, yeah, i love texas dom Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, i tried him on today, but he had he has a bunch of family over right now in texas, but Um, he turned his whole marriage around with bdsm basically Um in his speech he talks about that he lays out, you know from the divorce those incoming They had been married for a long time. It was falling apart She found 50 shades of gray or something He ended up reading it And kind of through that and then you know internet searches and stuff He was able to really turn his whole marriage around it's changed his whole life and for the positive And it's very much like you're talking about ellen Uh, it's a lot of it's very explicit. I don't know if they have the contract but You know, you see it's always, you know, grandpa's a flog and grandma or whatever Uh, which is I mean his wife's actually really hot like it's that's totally bullshit, but So much of the the problems that people have in relationship is due to a lack of clarity and understanding I mean, I'm gonna say communication, but I don't want that to be misconstrued When you have what what you're saying about bdsm relationships and how It's smooth sailing it because it clarifies the dynamics of the relationship Both parties really understand fully how they're supposed to show up in what the other one needs from it And you know, one of the things that text was talking about in his in his speech and at the 21 convention was that He it's it's a lot of responsibility for the guy and if the guy is not like you have to You you can't just be dominant and then act like a child and not take care of shit But you have to you have to like play that role And so I think it's a way to kind of cut through tons of the bullshit between Couples and when they get to that exact point In my experience when you have that clarity The relationship and you both are are fulfilling your roles. The relationship is is amazing. It's smooth sailing Beneath that I think fighting can be good because fighting is at least some degree of communication At least you're trying to engage with each other's The worst relationships I've seen are the ones where Neither party ever expresses anything that they want and they don't fight about it And they just have this like low level avoidance and resentment And I've I've talked to some guys. I mean, they rarely jump in to work They rarely jump in the work because they are so so difficult for them to express anything that they actually even want to begin with But they're living in like a silent hell and they're so afraid to say anything And both parties frankly are afraid to say anything that's gonna upset the boat They don't fight and they're in this, you know, happy little dynamic Quote-unquote, but everybody hates you. Everyone hates everything and what tends to happen is at one point One of the parties something happens. The guy just maybe burns it all down leaves It's like a zombie marriage. Yeah, it's a zombie marriage. Exactly. That's why I think, you know They talk about the divorce rate being 50 and some of that's because you they count for second marriages and third marriages That skew that statistic But really I think that the failure rate of marriage is a lot different from the divorce rate I think it's a lot higher Because when people say when people use divorce as a metric for the failure of a marriage They're not accounting for the marriages that fail slowly that are dying that are that are really already dead There are like a zombie marriage. It's so I think the failure rate for marriage is probably really high It's probably like 70 80 percent But I do think there's a chunk that work really well and I think allen is on the track to doing that I think you're in that too pat You know, I we're still going to know each other, but I really like the things you tweet and write about and you speak about Your newsletter is one of the only ones I read Actually, thank you Yeah, I'll be back on camera in a second, but uh, it's funny what you said pat, uh I remember years ago when I lived in los angeles I responded to this ad for the discovery channel and um And they wanted to talk about sex They had about one third single people there and two thirds of people were coupled either married or unmarried couples and anyway They were interviewing this one older couple They were like in their, um Man to late 50s, but shit. I'm I'm in that age group now. So I'm one of those older people But anyway, here's what I found amazing they were interviewing this couple And the guy was married and he said It took him like 20 years To ask his wife for a blowjob Oh my god And I was just like sitting there mouth open eyebrows raised And the woman there was something I can't remember what her she had one desire And it's interesting because it's related to what what pat was saying how You know, you could you could have a couple and they both have wants and needs but they're scared to communicate them Yeah, this guy said he said he thought his wife would think bad of him If if he knew she he wanted his cock sucked And a woman said she thought he would look down on her if if if if she told him she wanted, you know abc xyz I was just like damn How can you be in a like a 30 year marriage and be scared to say shit? To your partner, but that that showed that they weren't alone Did they went on to say that a lot of couples go through that they'll be in you know 10 year 15 20 plus year marriage But be scared to communicate there wants and needs in a forthright manner Yeah And and that's one of the things, you know, like you said you said you're getting engaged you're engaged, right? You're getting married Alan and There's gonna be tons of guys who are gonna say stuff like oh, you know, you're gonna get divorce raped, right? Look The stats are it's true about the stats, but you have to look at the individuals who are going into the situation There's you can't just take you Right Alan and compare yourself to some random guy who has no idea about any of this stuff Who has done no work on himself who has no awareness? And say that your rates are going to be the same, you know, just flipping a coin It's not how it works. It's not how it works It's very disingenuine observation of stats is what it is. They're they're completely lacking context Yeah I get that too You know in certain circles on youtube, you know some guys some own followers even when they find I was engaged They was like, man, we respected you but man, you're gonna get financially raped man and you know Your woman's gonna do this and you're gonna experience this and I basically just had to tell like dude I'm 57 years old man. What do you think? I am not aware of You're so blue pill man. Oh my god Meanwhile your fiance calls you sir and probably master and stuff Yeah, there you go. Yeah, I agree your chances of getting financially divorced or slim That's not zero. I mean, you know, anything's physically possible, but it's not I don't think it's unhappy either. It's stupid And it's stupid the people It's not stupid necessarily It's it's tragic that guys think that stuff, especially your long-term followers. There's got to be of a small minority like you said But that's just bullshit. They picked up from other people I think they probably didn't pay attention enough to what you say And they they just tune into what they want to hear rather than what they need to hear There you go There you go And and there's a victim mindset with all of that too because they they would just prefer to say that I have no control over anything here. I can't I can't learn how to make my outcomes different I'm and it's actually that's the same mindset that got them into the problem So it's probably right that those guys shouldn't get married Because they still have the same mindset that they are a victim of women That they probably had in their relationship And so as long as it's like yeah, your reality is true with your mindset if you change your mindset Then it's no longer true They don't they don't get that. It's like it's like too high level To understand like no, no, this is what's real my world. It's real Even with me they don't want to point to I have a pretty famous speech I put out about my experience with marriage and stuff and bad divorce I went through and all that whatever it has like almost half a million views And yet these guys don't want to they'll they'll watch it and they'll they'll share it We'll thumb it up, but they'll want to they don't want to mention that I as I detail on the speech I didn't get divorce raped. I lost zero dollars technically I've profited like tens of thousands of dollars Off of the divorce because I spoke about it Which generated ad revenue and people bought tickets to the convention because they found the speech powerful And they made him interested in the event and stuff like that So not even even in a case of a marriage falling apart You're not necessarily going to get divorce raped if you protected yourself If you were aware of how you know the world works to some degree How the court system works things like that I protected myself in my case See these guys a lot of it's very overblown. There's a lot of things you can do to protect yourself and it's not this And you know, I was saying too like I was talking about the divorce rates just a minute ago like we're talking about But there's some marriages that work really well I think they're a minority of the population by far, but there's still some that work really really well And people are really happy to be in them. I think Alan and both, you know, you pat You guys are good examples of that. I mean Alan's gonna be a father now There's a me a heir to the to the mode one empire. I saw some comments the guys are saying Yeah, that's awesome, man. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah Let's keep kind of going through this. So let's talk about progression I know that I learned how to pick up women approach women get phone numbers So there's a progression to my experience for example in the pickup community, you know start now You couldn't even approach learn how to approach learn how to get phone numbers back when phone numbers were a thing Now it's all instagram or whatever the fuck by tiktok now But eventually I learned how to bring women home in the same night, you know go on dates bring women home too that way But sex took a long time to figure out for me I learned how to you know get a girl in bed and banger long before actually learned how to banger How to experience not only how to banger but how to have a really good time myself How the whole you know everything that we're talking about here So what do you guys think about experience with sex? Both with multiple partners, you know guys going out picking up girls as well as in long-term relationships How does that progression? How is important and you know, what does it mean? How is it going to play out for guys? I only have my own experience really go off of I haven't seen too much about this in the wider Manusphere guys talking about it. Yeah, because most guys suck Uh, well Let's just add some more meat to it. I've learned from both I've learned in a long-term relationship a lot and I've also learned a lot from You know banging girls fuck buddies same that lays Some of the best sex in my life was uh, you know like a same that the rare same la where it works out really good But also you have long-term relationships or you bang a girl hundreds even thousands times Well, I would say one of the first things I learned is is probably what um We talked about earlier, which was That uh section enjoyment and satisfaction is more Mental than it is physical Is that once I learned like one of my biggest influences Anthony, I think you already know this as well as most of my followers One of the things that inspired my whole mold one philosophy was the summer after I graduated from high school I watched this this 1980 core movie called talk dirty to me with this legendary Italian porn actor named John Leslie And he's a political womanizer That would just say all this sexually explicit shit to women like in the first few minutes of conversation And I was like holy shit You know It's funny. I never get because my brother was Was with me because we had this friend. He he was interested because most guys let's put it real Most guys watch porn movies usually get aroused so they can masturbate But me and my brother had this friend. He liked to point out like goofy stuff in the porn movies Like to make fun of laugh at So that's why he was showing us these he shows like three different porn movies And he would point out scenes that he thought was funny But this one of them was called talk dirty to me. Anyway My brother saw me taking mental notes and he was like I remember infamously. He said bro Don't take notes on this movie that this is a porn film You could never get away with that in real life ever You get slapped. You get cursed out. You get drink thrown in your face Don't don't ever talk to a woman about sex in the first five to ten minutes of your very first conversation And I listened to him for about the next three years my first three years of college But then that turning point again the triple date story and who said again but anyway Once I saw first That I could get women Dripping wet just by talking to them without even like kissing them yet or touching on them yet That was a major light bulb on the head for me and so I would each a lot of women I would deal with I would I would try to see how far could go and today would absolutely stop me I would I would go beyond each of their sexual sensibilities. For example If I knew get the feeling that a woman had never engaged in a menage or twa I would just start talking about I would be like, you know what I want to fuck you In your roommate, I want to see you licking each other's pussies. Of course, they'd be like, oh my god I can't believe you're talking to me this way, but I could see in their face that they were getting turned on And like one thing I would look for is if that tongue became more active That's why if people look on the cover Of who said again, it's a woman with her tongue out into the left Yeah And uh, because women they do when when you talk dirty to them One thing said to this. Oh, I don't know if I would ever do that right if they said that they go It's like eye contact where the eyes go. There's there's some significance to this body language was Yeah, so um so I I don't have to say I didn't I didn't so much initially Concentrate us on like again like a lot of guys do I'm like, okay. I need to know how to master The doggy style position and I need to know how to master. I mean, I'm not saying that's not important I always tell guys when it comes to mechanic with Kansas one simple way of thinking about it Is a mutual massage She's giving you Your dick a massage with her pussy And you're giving her pussy a massage with your dick And I tell guys make sure you have the best mutual genitalia massage ever You know until you both have a smile on your face. You're both happy But uh, I always like To bring outsides of women that they may not Either they didn't know were there Or they knew were there, but their social program always said no keep that under wraps keep that under wraps And that was my that was my thing like my brother once said one time Some women I knew were light-heartedly teasing me for being a sex addict I knew I wasn't but I threw it at my brother said Right, you think you think I'm a sex addict? He said no He said your desire is is no more than any other healthy american male He said but here's what I do think you have an addiction to he said you like meaning women Who are kind of carrying themselves as the innocent wholesome good girl? And you love to see if you can bring out their more kinky side their more Side You do have an addiction to that. It's a challenge Yeah Yeah, I've I've I know I know the feeling Uh, one of the things I wanted to mention too that's where we get padded on this on experience and progression getting better One of the things I found that should have mentioned at the start of this segment I've found for getting better for me Over the years, you know since 17 finding the pickup community becoming sexually active and all that Is becoming more impulsive and more expressive And I took that took a long time and sex for me separate from the mechanics which I kind of learned just through experience, you know intuitively over time But being impulsive and expressive were a lot more difficult and probably a lot of that's personal, you know trauma You know, whatever blue pill crap But I really think a lot of guys that benefit from that Maybe not everybody. Maybe some guys are more naturally prone to that But I wasn't and the more I've tapped into that, you know, that natural alpha dominant side and just Living that impulsively, you know, shout out to James Marshall on those guys the natural lifestyles career They talk about and the Australian accent, you know, get out of you get out of your head get in your body might get in your body You got to get out of your head might But it really is true like and if you can do that as a man get out of this head and get into the your smaller head I suppose You become more impulsive more, you know more aggressive usually more dominant And it's very natural and they feel that and they love it You'll see it in their eyes if you if you have, you know, I contact the moment with them I've one of the first times I really started tapping into that. I saw girl's eyes just light up go wide Like a deer in headlights because she was she could see me tapping into that and she was like, fuck. Yeah And then she got fucking railed. Yep. And that was one of the first times in my life that really happened Happened at that intensity in that that depth And then ran No, that's that's really good anthony and actually I think that one of the It's so interesting the progression about how this How this happens for guys, but to really get fully natural and authentic in the moment part of it can be even Not feeling the need to make That exact sexual exchange particularly kinky and dirty It's kind of whatever. What is the energy that you're feeling and what and what do you what do you want? What what is what is going on between the two you and that girl at the moment because sometimes it can be much more passionate Yeah, it can be much more, you know connected and well, dude, that's not alpha bro. You're just purple pill king. Shut up bro right, right and it's it's so interesting because Trying to force like some trying to force in a certain in a certain sexual exchange and it can of course be the same moment It just to be a different different day a different energy You you trying to make it like really really dirty and really really kinky. It's kind of actually you are off alignment in that moment And that makes the sex worse. Yep So been there myself. Yeah plenty of times dude too many times. Yeah. Yeah, maybe not too many but yeah It's it seems like the progression like my progression. I mean I I've had Tons and tons of terrible sexual experiences at times when I had some performance issues Uh, I just really didn't feel connected at all to the girl really in my head Um talking about a lot of the mechanical stuff that I talked, you know I talked about earlier like really fixating on that I mean I can I can speak to it because I've been there and I think it's it's useful actually as a coach, right? To be able to have gone through a life cycle to understand where where a guy's at but I've I think at the higher levels you start to get to a point where it's more about You realize it's not about addition so much as it is about elimination and That there were things that you learned. Maybe you were conditioned to have that earlier on affected your attitude and your mindset towards women and towards sex and it's really about Getting rid of that and becoming you know, what you guys just said about being in the moment And feeling like you can fully express yourself and and what you want and say what you want and Sure, there's an aspect of this that I guess is unconscious competence like you know, you learn how to maybe you maybe you learn how to the dirty talk You learn some nlp You learn, you know about the female anatomy And that stuff eventually becomes integrated and it's but I think it's it's You just have to be willing to I mean you have to be vulnerable to a certain extent I don't mean like share your feelings and everything but you have to like having sex with a girl and you don't have any experience There's a level of vulnerability to that to learn yeah, you have to learn and You know, if you try to hold back and try to make everything perfect, you're more likely to get stuck I think with being impulsive and expressive. I think for me anyway The experience has been like being vulnerable to my animal side. Yes that animalistic like almost like pre-human side Like what would have anthony a hundred thousand years ago been like fucking a chick Without even without even language or you know, maybe not even access to fire or something like that Like really pre-human stuff and it's like that I think it's a lot of what wonders a lot of what dominance submission comes down to is like It's tapping into that part of your brain lizard brain or whatever they call it And women love that they really want that they want to bring that out and you like almas saying They want you to be better actually and the shit test as as abrasive as it might seem I think it's a It's a cue or a push for that they're trying to push you in a in a better and a better healthier direction That also, you know, of course, they're gonna enjoy a lot more. They're gonna love it and they want it Yeah, you know, it's funny one of my first videos after I came on youtube I came on youtube regularly in april of 2017 and one of my first five videos was about Telling man to get in tune with your what I called your inner animal And I said that problem with a lot of you guys. You're not in tune with your inner animal Yep, and I said sexually you have to be you have to be you got to get in tune and also Pat said something that also emphasized my clients When I first usually when I first I work with them I say My coaching is not so much about Adding on stay 10 new beliefs 10 new attitudes But in many cases just the opposite And I think that that's what you were saying. He says it's not about addition Latins with latins about elimination. All right. A lot of things I Tell guys to do is identify certain invalid beliefs and weed them out Certain negative attitudes weed them out Certain egotistical insecurities weed them out That's what's hurting a lot of guys is that they they've accumulated in simple terms There's just so much bullshit from the time they were preteen a teenage That all this bullshit in their mind Is really preventing them from being the great lover that they have the potential to be It's like that bullshit is depressing their potential to be some woman's great lover Do you guys both think uh, what are your thoughts on this? Does every guy have the potential to be really awesome in bed? Like a really great lover with woman I'll say yes or no. I think all guys have the potential to be a great lover for some woman For some woman But now that's to be distinguished from Do all guys had a potential say to be prolific womanizers? No, I've said on my channel many times and I've got a lot of pushback for say that but I'm like some of you guys are never going to be like this Prolific womanizer who sleeps with you know a thousand two thousand women in your life that that's not gonna happen That's a cold splash of truth. Jesus Yeah, I would I would say that Every guy can Certainly be a good lover. Are they going to be You know, there are there are some guys that are so naturally in tune with the energy it's kind of like a You know, we like like it's like you talk about talent in general Like anybody can learn how to be Like a good artist if they put the time in and if they they learn, you know, I don't want to I don't want to contradict. It's like it's a it's a different process You're learning skills more when you're learning how to paint versus eliminating things when it comes to sex but I do think that some people have Just such an a natural connection to it that They're like, you know a Casanova sort of like an like an elite level of Of this but every guy like you said Alan can be an excellent lover and can certainly be an excellent lover with Someone who they really feel connected with right? They can build it up within a within a relationship Um, but being able to go to like random girls and being able to bring that out of almost every girl That could be harder for a lot of guys and I don't and even let's just say if it is possible It's probably not a good ROI Yeah, guys because it's not It's it's not their natural inclination There's more to do in life. Yeah, I think kind of what you're saying too How I'm interpreting it is like everyone can become a great artist if they really want to get good at it But can everyone become a Picasso or something? It's like Probably not But no, you don't need to either, you know, there's a lot more to do in life as a man Let's start kind of winding down the show with a few uh final questions here final zingers What are the panel's thoughts on excuse me if a butcher the pronunciation conigalus eating vagina eating pussy There's been some debate on twitter recently from guys like rivalino. I think that some other people It's as beta as alpha, you know, what what does it mean to you guys? Well, I've been asked that question Uh From quite a few of my clients and patreon subscribers. I'll say ellen. Do you think eating pussy means you're automatically a beta male? Uh Hey, if you if you want to eat pussy eat pussy Um Just suppose that if you have a genuine desire to eat pussy eat pussy But don't let a woman brow beat you Yeah, pussy And particularly a woman that you're not in like a relationship with and you don't know anything about, you know Her health or hygiene, whatever No, don't don't you don't know. Yeah, you don't know who's been in there. Yeah, exactly. So So uh, yeah, I'll say uh, don't you know, if if it's more so you trying to do it It's a All your emphasis pretty much on pleasing a woman or doing it because the woman wants you to do it Or she suggests you to do it or she's trying to force you to do it Fuck that. Don't let no woman do that. But again, if if you in a relationship woman You know something about her her health or hygiene and whatnot and you genuinely want to do it I don't see any problem with it. Yeah, but it's impulsive. Yeah I think sometimes the mega girl just making her squeal Just, you know, it's so oversensitive and whatever and just just watching her just Fuck the squirm and shit. Yeah, it's fun. No, I mean, I love it to be honest. I love it I'm never like, oh, can you go down on me? It's I've never heard that. I don't think I've ever heard that in my life Yeah Maybe maybe on some like one night stand that I can't recall but No, I mean, I I enjoy doing it. I mean, I enjoy sex more but it depends on my mood. Maybe sometimes sometimes I'll go and I'll I'll take my wife and I'll You know take off her clothes and I'll eat her out and then I'll I'll be done and she'll be like what like Don't do anything else. Like no, I'm good So it just depends depends how I feel about it. I think that what we call that the the dine and dash Yeah, exactly exactly It's for my own gratification But I think that I think that what rib's doing is, you know, like I said earlier in the show, I think it's it's it's important for guys to I think a lot of beginners think like I need to learn how to how to go down there I need to learn how to be really good at at eating out a girl if I want to be good at sex and It's like totally irrelevant. It's totally. Yeah, it's it's a relevant It's it's a nice. It's a nice skill in your toolbox and I and I can say that I will say this that if you're a guy who has had Yeah, well exactly what Cole is saying here is kind of taking the word out of my mouth words out of my mouth for and for guys who have Maybe don't have as much sexual confidence There there is some power There is there is some power in being able to really make a girl come with your tongue And I have known some guys who maybe had some, you know issues With sex and that being really good at going down girls really kept them in the game but I I don't think it is I'm very cautious of recommending that As an approach to guys because it's it gets the orientation off. I think it's like a it's a weapon but it's not It's not the primary modus operandi that you want to be thinking about Yeah Yeah, I think someone can even use You know going down on her as a shit test like I think that's Alan was referring to that kind of bra beating I mean that would definitely be that's a power trip in that in that case I think almost every time if not every time power play Yeah, it's a trap like the star Wars meme. It's a trap So final question for you guys, what are some of the pitfalls guys should watch out for as they They go out into the world. They learn about women. They start having success with women They start getting, you know, if not automatically through experience a little bit better with the you know sex and stuff And obviously maybe over time this gets better through effort Or focus or whatever What are some pitfalls that we talked about here, you know the brow beating and going down on the girl and stuff What are some other pitfalls though? Other than for example, maybe to you know Getting roped into keyboard jockey bullshit in the man's sphere about you know sex like here's my fucking 20 step You know essay I wrote in the stuff from my mom my mom's basement about how to bang girl Like you you see this stuff consistently though, you know, I've seen it for years and you still see it It's amazing to see it in 2007 and then see it in 2014 and then see it in 2020. It's like This is never going to end The pitfalls for the guys that they want to get better and they're learning Well, I would say that One of the things that I've seen happen to to guys is that they can get good at game. They can get good at hooking up with girls um and then And they can be really good at creating like a fantasy for a girl But that but they haven't done enough of the they haven't really gotten the essence of what it is to be a man They're still they got really good at the tactics and techniques And so they're getting good outcomes when they create this fantasy But if they then get serious with a girl What starts to happen is that Over a period of months usually three six months certainly a year or two years gradually their frame starts to diminish in the dynamic because They were really just they were still addicted to the girls validation But they were just getting good at they were just good at gaining at that point And they hadn't fundamentally broken themselves and created the belief that You know, I hate using this term because it's so Abused but you know that they're they're the prize right that they they are The valuable person in the dynamic and what you see happens is that these guys will they begin to relationship And then as the relationship starts to become depolarized and there's tons of fights and stuff like that Then they start to think like Oh, well, maybe it's it's a problem with this girl. I should I need to go back out and hook up with girls again Whereas I actually think that's that's sometimes an avoidance of their edge Because the reason that the girl is giving him that shit So maybe she wasn't the right choice but the girl is giving them that shit because She sees that he actually is full of shit And Those tests are actually an opportunity for him to get to the next level So ideally you do that stuff on your own, right? but the pitfall is is really Thinking because you got some results When you were when you're single is that you really really have gotten it on a deep level and you have to be really honest with yourself about Where you're at vis-à-vis this girl. Do you really feel like you don't need her or you're like, oh, I want her over I got I got the girl I'm looking for now Yeah, um one of the things And I've been talking about this a lot on my channel as far as Problems and pitfalls guys run into what one is related to my presentation is simply Buying into the belief a lot of guys find and believe that women Are not as sexual as we are and that's I'm sorry. That's bullshit That this is bullshit, you know, there's social programming and cultural conditioning Will Try to persuade them to believe that they shouldn't reveal their sexuality and the same and and and in many respects Society doesn't give women the same green light so to speak as men but women are sexual creatures Women love to fuck women. I mean as I put it out in the presentation at the 21 convention 2018 man the female sex toy Industry is like a billion dollar industry You telling me that's happening because women aren't horny and secondly And this is a video I did on my channel that where I got a lot to see there's been this major division at least in some circles of the ministry about In relation to what I do and what I teach direct versus indirect and a lot of guys Believe you should lie to women and basically what's known as pumping dump Is what a lot of guys call pumping them where you give a woman the misleading impression You want a long term emotionally profound long lasting romantic relationship when actuality you just really want casual sex And you know some guys endorse the idea of deceiving women in this way I'm totally against that A lot of guys I feel like a lot of it comes from a lot of guys Think or assume mistakenly that a lot of these women are dealing with out here are stupid and clueless And they're not Particularly in this day and age in this me too movement era. They're not Women most savvy women know When a guy is trying to run game on them And I know women Who know how to in a very calculated way Run masterful game on the guys who think they're trying to run game on them Which I talk about in my book the possibility of sex So when I get too lengthy I think yeah Man quit thinking that women out here are stupid and that they're oblivious to gain Most of the women who are 25 years of age or older They know all the little pua tricks and and gimmicks and whatnot In what's what's gonna happen to a lot of you guys who think you're running game on women You're gonna get game ran on you in a way that's going to be detrimental to Yeah, women are clever I'd say yeah, I've seen uh, yeah, these guys think women are stupid or whatever and it's like no a lot of them are very clever For one reason or another, you know, they've been through the ropes. They've been through a lot of stuff They've seen a lot of stuff Maybe the artist is very intelligent. Some of them obviously are statistically Yeah, oh, yeah to get yeah, you can get and get in the game flip back on you. That's I've been there Girl game girl game. Yeah, don't underestimate women. Yeah, especially if you think I say I was tweeting recently that you should never underestimate a woman with uh, Who you suspect has like a personality disorder BPD and stuff like that because women can be really fun to fuck But it's like you're dancing with the devil. Yep, and uh, she's dangerous, man Yeah, very plain. It's like playing with fire Yeah Well guys, it's been a very enjoyable conversation I think the guys will enjoy it on the you know, watching live appreciate you guys tune in live Everyone will watch us later as well. They post automatically to youtube once we're done I look forward to having you guys both back on the show at some point We could do another episode about other topics has been fucking awesome Uh final words guys for around out here. Well, just uh, I'm gonna say thank you, anthony for having me Uh, this was this was a great discussion my first time interacting with uh pat Who seems to have a lot of great knowledge wisdom and insight and um Yeah, uh, thank you. Uh, all you guys in the chat room who took time out of your saturday morning To join us for this discussion. I really appreciate it and again, you can find me At direct approach dating as one word dot com direct approach dating guy dot com In my books and audio books can be found on amazon dot com Nice. Yeah, just uh same stuff. I mean, thank you guys for for tuning in on saturday. It was a It's been an amazing conversation Alan it's been I mean I'd love love to talk more with you about this stuff. But really it's I know that you're you've You've got a real real litany of experience and it shows and Uh, anthony thanks for for putting this thing together for us to really have a good I think there was a really good chemistry here. Yeah, oh it um So yeah, I appreciate it. You guys can find me at pat underscore stedman on twitter And also pat stedman dot com and if you want to get my uh daily ish Uh email newsletter that anthony was talking about earlier. It's just pat stedman dot com slash opt in And but if you follow me on twitter, you're gonna you're gonna get the links to that And for everyone else watching too appreciate again you guys tuning in thank both of you For being on the show today. So this was fucking awesome Also, both of their speeches well Alan has two speeches out now from 21 convention on 21 studios Pat's full speech. There's a couple previews out now His full speech will be on 21 studios pretty soon a couple days maybe a week And all their speeches are available at 21 university dot com you can watch them ad free Usually early by a few weeks with a free trial. So check it out at 21 university dot com That's it for today's show. This has been episode one of four of the red man group And i'll see you guys next saturday probably about 11 a.m. Maybe 11 30 feels nice that you do this a little later actually I'm not a uh morning person Anyway, peace out guys and uh boys we could stay here live privately ending the live stream