 Good day, my lovely listeners! You are listening to The Forty Autie Podcast. Tune in every week to explore inspiring stories and insightful information that dive headfirst into the world of autism and mental health. With all those tantalizing tongue twisters out of the way, let's get into the show. Welcome back to The Forty Autie Podcast. We have our main card tonight. In the red corner we have Vince Cachero, the Anomaly, a bantam weight fighter for the U.S.C. born in Hawaii and fighting out of Los Angeles, California. And in the blue corner we have Thomas Henley, a heavyweight ex-Taekwondo fighter with a number of decorated medals, fighting out of Harrogate in Yorkshire. Today The Forty Autie Podcast is bringing you this main card event. What is it like to be an autistic fighter? Let's get ready to rumble! Love it man, that was legit. They should look to get you in the cage soon out there. How are you guys doing today? Thank you for tuning in to another episode of The Forty Autie Podcast with Kors. Our guest today, Vince Cachero, how are you doing today? Good, good. Thomas, I'm doing well. Thank you for having me on. You said that you've recently gone through sort of a big move at the moment. Yeah, yeah. I spent the last year in Texas down in Houston and now I just moved up here to Wisconsin and I'm going to be here for three years with my wife. She has a residency up here and once she's done with that we're moving straight back home to Hawaii. It's been a really long time and I can't wait to get back. Yeah, because you're originally from Hawaii. Are you a big surfer or is that just like a really bad stereotype that I'm propagating? I wouldn't say it's a bad stereotype but it is one of those things where not everyone from Hawaii serves all the time. So, you know, I used to go bodyboard and stuff. Drinking coconut. Yeah, exactly, right? But yeah, when I was a kid I played soccer 24-7 and there was really no time for anything else. So that's me in a nutshell. I was always kind of involved in sports and that's what let me just kind of get absorbed with life. So I guess, you know, because what we're on today to kind of chat about our experiences as autistic fighters, which I think is not something that I've ever come across on the internet. It's probably a fest for the world. Do you like to sort of talk us for a little bit about your C-career? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I started fighting actually. My first amateur fight was in 2013. I kind of just fell into it. You know, after school, after college, I knew I didn't want to go directly into finance, get that desk job that, you know, I was kind of dreading for a while. I knew that just wasn't the lifestyle for me. And, you know, somehow found fighting. I took a crazy interest in it. And, you know, within months I was knowing all the all the fighters, their records, this and that. Like it was just a complete deep dive. I ended up working at an MMA gym and I saw some of my friends, you know, fighting in these amateur shows. So I would go watch them fight. And then I was like, well, I've been training and I'm watching these guys out there. I think I could beat some of these guys up. So, you know, I hopped in. I lost my first fight. I was like, no, I just the competitor in me wouldn't let that go. And, you know, I won 10 straight from there turn pro. And again, it was a thing for me. Like I just wanted to turn pro just to say I did when I was a kid. I want to be a professional soccer player. So I was like, okay, well, I can check off that professional athlete box and then move on with my life. And, you know, as soon as I got that first professional fight, that first win, then it was, no, let's, let's make it to the UFC. So in three years, I made it to the UFC. And for, for those of you or those of the listeners who aren't too familiar with MMA, it's, it's like the top show, right? It's the, the top of the top. And luckily enough, I got in, I was lucky to have great coaches around me, great team made supporting me. Um, I fought the best opponents I could. I made it in a short notice fight. I fought up a weight class. Um, and I ended up losing, losing that match. It was on two days notice. It was during COVID. So the whole time it was like, you couldn't really train at gyms, but you kind of could. And it was kind of like, um, my manager told me just maintain my weight and it was like this extended period of time where months where I was trying to keep my weight low ish. It was a, it was a really weird circumstance, but, you know, I got in and I fought a really tough guy in Jamal Emers. I put up a great fight, cracked him with some good shots, but, um, you know, didn't go the way I hoped it would. And unfortunately I only had one more fight in the UFC. Um, I lost to a young up and comer. And yeah, since that, I got caught and that was really it, but fighting consumed my life for cheese. What was that? 10 years or so, 10, 11 years. Yeah. I, um, I like how at the start of sort of telling it, you just kind of, you said that you just kind of fell into, you know, full contact combat sports. Yeah. Yeah. Just casually falling in, right? Yeah, just falling into it. Um, but that's amazing. Like just the fact that you've, you got into the UFC is just, it's like a massive achievement, like amazing achievement. Um, thank you. I mean, personally, I've always been like, I've always been like really into martial arts and, you know, I watch, watch a lot of boxing, watch a lot of UFC. I don't tend to remember people's names. It's more like to watch how they sort of, you know, fight together and stuff, but most, most of the stuff that I've been doing is like more along the lines of like striking. Um, I did a bit of Muay Thai, did a bit of boxing, did a lot of Taekwondo, which is where it's sort of kickstarted things. But yeah, I know you competed in that, right? Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I got pretty good, um, at one point, uh, sort of national champ, Commonwealth champ fought for the GBA at a couple of events, but I just got really frustrated with it because it's a, it's a point scoring martial arts. So it's like, you can really sort of give a beating to somebody, but if they just land their foot in the right place at the right amount of pressure, then they, they can just out point you and it's just ridiculous. Um, yeah. So I, yeah, that seems strange to me as, as someone where it really is just win or lose tap or the decision and whatnot. And that's, that's kind of why I was really attracted to, to MMA and being in the cage. Cause at least for me, it made more sense. Like, okay, if we're fighting, then we're at least allowed to like fight, you know, and, and the fight's going to go wherever it goes. So I could see how that'd be pretty frustrating. Yeah. I mean, it is what I signed up for, but it was kind of like, at the tail end of when I sort of finished like prop, properly training and like getting into it, it was kind of, kind of the point where I just got so sort of frustrated at the system. And I was just like, uh, taekwondo is probably not the best for me at the moment. I have sort of like, it was, I think I stopped when I was about 19. So it has been like good five or six years since I was training properly. So I think maybe there might be, you know, my sort of calm down temperament may suit that a bit better. But I think the one thing that stops me from going into, to MMA is, is like, I'd be more likely to try something like kickboxing or, um, Muay Thai or stuff like that. Because I don't like the thought of someone on top of me trying to knock me out and punch my face in. Yeah, it's, it's a little different with that. And I also, I don't know if I'd be able to do it to someone else, but because of, because of how striking dominant I am, it'd probably be the case. It doesn't, I don't know. It's kind of, it's kind of a button, like a little bit of a cliff edge that I'm not sure if I should jump into on arcs. Yeah. And I think it's important to realize too, with most MMA training, um, with, with popular gyms and stuff out there, because I used to work at gyms as well, is that it's not a sport where you're going into the gym and you're going into beat other people up. So like traditional martial arts, you have, um, just a bunch of different things you could be doing. Like you mentioned Muay Thai, um, like Dutch style kickboxing, you've got boxing, which is just the hands, um, you've got Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, which is ground grappling with submissions and then wrestling and all of that. So you can go in and be getting work. And most of these schools, you're not going to train to try to fight someone unless you're trying to turn into an amateur or a professional fighter. And, you know, a lot of people aren't necessarily trying to do that. So it is important to realize I think for people out there that, um, you know, if you're a fan of MMA and you want to see what it's like to do it, um, it doesn't mean that you're going to go into the gym and the next day you're actually fighting someone. Like it takes a little while to, to learn technique, build up the confidence and spar if you choose to spar and things like that. So it is a thing where I suggest people to kind of try if they aren't interested in it. Um, don't think of it as just this brutality. Think of it as like, no, this is martial arts, um, in a controlled form and fashion. It's just what you see on TV is literally just the fighting aspect. It's not the training, the preparation, the drilling aspects of it. To fight is such a tiny portion of all the work that you do, isn't it? It's, I mean, it's ultimately the thing that gives you the decision, but everything else, like the nutrition and the sleep and the training and so the day to day and trying to keep on track and, you know, avoid all, all those sort of lovely things that life has to offer, but perhaps isn't so healthy. Yeah, yeah, exactly. There's there's a whole lot that goes into to being a fighter, living that fighter lifestyle that, um, you know, most people just, just don't realize, like you mentioned things like the diet, things like that. I was, that was one of the biggest, I guess, reliefs after I chose to retire was, hey, I can, I can like go out and have a meal now. My wife would ask me on a Wednesday night, like, yo, you want to go out to dinner. And before it'd be like, no, like, nah, I'm watching my way, keeping my weight low, eating healthy meals at home. But once that happened, it was like, oh, okay. Yeah, I guess I can go out and just eat food when I want to now. So that that was a relief. But yeah, there's there's a lot of mental pressure that that goes on with fighting. That's, you know, at least for the time when I was in it, it was fun and engaging, but it takes its toll. And the weight cutting, that's quite a big part of it as well. Like, I remember at my lowest weight, it's the same height as it was now. I'm at six three now away about 110 kilos. And when I was fighting, I got down to about 72 kilos at the same height. Yeah, obviously, I've been to the gym the past couple of years. But like, I would I look I didn't look like a professional fighter. I look like I've just come out of a prison camp. With the rape towers, but like the categories and stuff, they're so harsh. And like, in taekwondo, because it's all about kicking, like your leg line for such a massive factor, because you know, in boxing and stuff, if you sort of get clipped a little bit by, you know, someone someone's kick, it doesn't really matter. But if you get clipped by someone's kicking taekwondo, it could sort of give them a point. And so we always just push, go go lower, lower, lower as you can, as you can. And it was so it's weird, the headspace that you get in when you're kind of cutting and stuff, because you know that you can't eat. So you just like sort of in this hyper focus mode, but there's no food to to focus on. Yeah, yeah, people don't see see that side of thing. And it's very much the same in MMA where because you are competing in there are weight classes, you know, your coaches and everyone around you, they're always trying to push you to go lower so you can have, you know, the size advantage, the reach advantage, strength, all that good stuff. But it does reach that kind of tipping point where you're just depleting yourself so much that it's not beneficial anymore. And it's it is interesting, like you said, with with making those drastic cuts, because at least now I feel as more information gets out there in MMA used to be just brutal, you know, you throw on that trash bag that sweats and just run just like the initial wrestlers do. Exactly. It's put your ring of man and like as we were making laps around with spitting the bed and yep, exactly. So you know how it goes and it's it's brutal to do it that way, at least now in the UFC and stuff they have nutritionists and these general guidelines that they're trying to coach us through and teach us so that we aren't just doing it that way, we're doing it a little bit more scientific and we're rehydrating properly things like that. But it's still bad because you're still crushing your body like just to get people an example. I'm like one of the lighter guys who fights at 135 so 135 pounds. So I usually walk around I'd be 153 or so before the fight 151 maybe 149 and you know, within a matter of a few days you're cutting down all the way to 135 pounds. And you know, you're taking out all that water, all of the food, the carbs that are holding on to water in your body, like you're going through the whole process to make sure you get out whatever water you can. And then you put it right back on the next day, you're right back up to 152, 153. I'm like one of the smaller. Yeah, and then you go fight someone. So it's you add both those things together. There's a lot of mental stress and literally physical stress in your body. But you know, it's part of the game. It's part of the challenge. And it, at least for me, it was it was an interesting fun part of the journey for sure. It's definitely a whole whole experiences and I kind of absorbs every single part of your life when you're when you're fighting, everything that's got to be in control. Like so we talked a lot about sort of MMA and me just just asking you loads of questions about what it's like to be a fighter. But you know, the other part of our chat is talk a bit about autism as well. So I guess the best place to start off with is when and how did you get diagnosed? Yes, my diagnosis was actually pretty recent. Maybe just like two, three months ago. Oh, wow. Yeah, this happened actually after I was fighting. There's another fighter I've been in contact who was also in the UFC. His name is John Doomsday Howard. People can look him up and he underwent kind of the same process. He fought in the UFC. He's out and he's actually still fighting. He's an he's an OG. He's been fighting forever. But through some examinations and stuff, he figured out that he was autistic as well and he got diagnosed. So it was interesting. I reached out to him because I'm like, yo, what's going on? Like, like this is this is what a psychiatrist just told me. And so we've been going back and forth. But yeah, basically asked what my story with it was is, you know, I've been out of fighting. I got caught from the UFC last year and I decided it was time to move on with my life, take that next step and and take on whatever I need to. But it was a really tough year for me. Like how really tough you're mentally gain over the identity of how I associated with fighting who I thought I was like, I got so lost into this persona, this identity of being a fighter that without it, like I knew I needed to move on from it. But at the same time, like, I was just like hurting myself so much on the inside. And, you know, I went through a really, really bad depressive phase that was, geez, probably like six months long, where it was, it was bad bad. So I knew I had issues and I've faced depression all of my adult life and going through bouts of that of being okay and then being depressed being okay. And you know, I was fighting and I was winning fights. So it all has just got me through. But this time I knew something needed to change. So my wife and my family, they were telling me basically not even not giving me an ultimatum, but they're like, you need to see a therapist, like you have to see a therapist. And I think that this is a big problem with with fighters, especially, but maybe just men in general, is that we feel like we're too, quote, unquote weak, if we if we need to see a therapist. So it was this weird feeling. As I was fighting, like, yo, I know I have these issues. I know I'm super depressed. But I'm not going to say anything. I'm just going to keep doing what I do because if I'm depressed enough and weak enough to go get help, then that means that I can't be a world champion. And I know that this line of thinking is not logical at all. But, you know, as a fighter who's kind of obsessed with what they're doing, and they're putting everything into trying to win. It's it's just this unhealthy mechanism where you're like, Oh, this is the truth. Like, I can't get help. Like, I'm not going to be a champ. If I get help, like, let me just do my thing. So going back to where we were last year was finally, okay, well, not fighting anymore. These people are begging me to get help. So I finally started getting help. I started seeing a therapist and, you know, it was it was weird, you know, for the first few months, it was difficult. I felt like I wasn't really connecting with them that much. And then a lot of things started to turn. And I started feeling a lot more like myself, whatever that means. And feeling better. And, you know, long story short, some things happened. I started feeling better and better feeling more comfortable myself start expressing myself more. I went to Vegas with with some of my boys, just this trip that happened to work out together because my dad was out there. And this is going to sound so strange. But I was in this really receptive state of mind on the flight home. And I was watching the movie, the big short. And I don't know if yeah, I don't know if you've watched that. It's about like the housing collapse in 2008. It's a it's a fantastic movie. But Christian Bale, who's a great actor, he was portraying Dr. Michael Burry. And Dr. Michael Burry is someone who is diagnosed with aspirators in real life. And he was at least how Christian Bale is acting in the movie. I was like, wait a second, I'm kind of resonating with a lot of the tendencies he's doing with, you know, having the headphones on blasting the loud music while he's intensely focusing of just his mannerisms of not making the eye contact and being really quirky with the people around him and things. And, you know, that's just surface level stuff. But for whatever reason, in that state, I was like, wait, like that's kind of how it's been for me my whole life. And then, you know, as we do, kind of just sent me down this rabbit hole of looking at the research and finding out that it's often passed from fathers to sons. And that's how he found out that it happened. And I look at my father, I'm like, okay, I see a lot of tendencies here. My dad's very artistic. He's an amazing painter. But, you know, I just I see a lot of tendencies. And so I started Yeah, yeah. So that that whole thing happened. And basically, I started expressing myself more through Instagram stories, which is, you know, weird. But for me, it's it's hard for me to express feelings with words. And even though I'm talking right now, I it's just hard for me. And it all has has been. And so I felt I've always found tools like photography, videography, I just I picked those traits up or those skills up because it allowed me to express myself more. And so with with Instagram stories, it's like, okay, cool, I can slap on music that means something to me, visuals that mean something to me, I can put in words that mean something. And hopefully this portrays like my feelings and thoughts. So I just started letting letting it go. Because I'm like, okay, I think I might have this, like, I already scheduled something, my therapist, we're gonna go down this route of trying to see if this is what I got. And you are making a lot of headway. Like, yeah, just trying to honestly, honestly, man, like, I found it really interesting as well, like, because you were saying about, you know, throughout your career, you've sort of on and off depressed on and off kind of thing. And, you know, my part of my diagnosis is that I have quite, quite severe depression and anxiety. So like, I just I just find it don't know if it's is it a coincidence? Is it like a, I don't know, did you, did you have a tough time in school when it kind of like transferred? Or is it just kind of like, yeah, not really feeling at one with other fighters or the community? Yes, a lot of that. So basically, when I was doing my whole thing, a lot of my friends and people around me thought I was having like a full on mental breakdown. And I admit, like I was kind of all over the place, but I ended up going to the hospital to visit a psychiatrist. And we started talking about all this. They sent me they thought I was okay and clear to go, sent me to another psychiatrist to get evaluated. And he was the one who's told me he's like, yeah, like, yeah, you're like checking off everything for autism. I think that this is what's going on. And so it started to click then, right? And so when I look back back to your question of how you're asking me how I felt through all this, it was, it was really strong with school. And anytime there's these new social situations, that's this, this massive anxiety and this ability to feel disconnected and wanting to connect so bad for me that I wouldn't, I don't know, just, just go through it mentally to try to fit in. I always felt, ever since I was a little kid, that I was just, just different. I don't know if you've seen, have you seen the movie Men in Black? With Will Smith? You just kind of, you kind of feel like you just, you just start to tune a little bit with the world. You just like, yeah, I don't really understand it. Like people tell you stuff that they think that you're going to agree with wholeheartedly and understand. And you just like, do you explain that to me? Like, yeah, it's, it's kind of like, not, it's not understanding social context and situations. And on top of that feeling, literally like you see this online a lot, or at least I have so far of people feeling like aliens. And when I was a little kid, I watched the movie Men in Black, and there's this one human in his face comes up and there's a little alien sitting inside. And I remember thinking like, yo, that's me. Like that's absolutely me. I've had this vision many times before that there's this like, these people inside behind me that are running the show. And like, I don't really know what's going on out here and stuff. And it, yeah, I mean, my whole life has been kind of that and struggling to understand these social situations. You know, the whole eye contact thing is a big issue for me. But I also learn how to kind of mask these traits in a way that when you like fighting and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, with I mean, I think for me fighting was a way to kind of release all the pain inside and the anger inside and just the frustration inside of trying to fit in and feeling so different and feeling so wrong in a way. And I know now that you know, it's not it's not a bad thing to feel those ways. Like I was really just like I have a weird I have a different lens, you know, like being autistic, being on the spectrum, you're just kind of hardwired a little bit differently. And it starts to make sense. But at the time, it's like, yo, why am I not like these other people? Why is it so hard for me to fit in? Why am I always trying to fit in? And for me when I'm fighting and when I'm training in things, it it really just forces you to be completely present and in the zone. And for me, that's just a way to let go of my brain and all the thinking and just be in the moment and then also kind of release all that tension that is constantly building up inside of me, especially when you're doing like a really sort of power power heavy pad session or something like, exactly, you just keep going and you're just trying to work through it. And it feels so good after you're like, say, oh, that person who looks at me weird, this social situation where I didn't feel like a good speak up because I didn't know when people were stopping talking Oh, it's all there. And it's all like, yeah, and things that I'm not sure how to really explain this, but until I found about all this, that I didn't really know how to handle these situations. Like, because I move every I noticed when I look back at my life, I've noticed every time I've moved switch jobs, lost a job, whatever it is, like just massive shutdowns, like I would start to get depressed right away and it would be heavy. Those conditions. Yeah, the lack of routine, the lack of knowing like, having your stable set of what's going on and even just this move up to Wisconsin. It's so recent. We just moved here two weeks ago. You know, we had the move, our families helped us. My wife has some family up here. So we met like two sets of cousins multiple times all these new social situations. There's like a bunch of people around. And this was the first time in my life where I kind of felt this feeling building up inside of me, like, yo, this is like, I'm getting too anxious. I couldn't really identify what it was. And I felt something happening, like a meltdown coming on. And it's sure enough, it did come on. I ended up like crying on the couch, we're talking about everything, things like that. But for me, I was happy to for once kind of notice it building up. And so it's kind of like, you know, when people, people are epileptic, they sort of, they like, talk about, they know when it's going to come on to get this like all room feeling, like they're feeling just they feel just this third sense that they're going to have one. And there is there is actually one for a meltdown. I've, I've, well for me, I found like, if I have this, it's kind of like this weird sort of release of pressure, and then dissociation. And then I'm like, yes, going to have a meltdown should probably probably leave. But it's confusing, isn't it? Because it doesn't necessarily have to be something that's bad. Like, it could be all of the family and stuff that you really like. And they're all together for the first time, all of these people that you like and mix together, and like, finding ways to interact with each person and interact with them as a group. It's just very like, overwhelming, I guess. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Super overwhelming. And I think that, you know, I counter that now with just family, but but team. So as you know, you have your martial arts teams and in MMA, some people tend to jump around different camps or because we have all these martial arts, you know, have to get my wrestling from here, my boxing from here, my sparring there. It always took me a really long time to start to fit in with new teams. And, and again, like this could be something that's just going on in my head. But whether it's going on my head or everyone else can feel it or sense it like it's going on inside of me. And I felt that big time every single time that I transferred teams or started training with a new team. And it was it was taking its toll on me. And I realized to like, for the last team, when I got to the UFC, my wife, she got a internship in a different state. So I had to move state I to leave my teams that I was with for a long time and have this new team. And it was a great team, great coaches love all the guys there. But it was so hard for me socially to get along, to try to fit in to feel normal. And again, like I was facing just this depressive episode, because it was just a lot of tension and anxiety for me. So although you're not, you're not like, you're not like going at each other like you were doing like an actual fight and actual ring, but you are making contact with people and, you know, greasing people and you know, you're hitting them or they're grappling you or submit like, if you don't know someone, it makes it feel a lot less. If it feels a lot less hard for me to spar with someone that I don't know, then someone that I do know some like, alright, okay, I know how much, how hard they hit, how fast they are, how small, how big they are. And I can sort of adjust my game to fit their level. But when you when you come across someone that you don't know, it's like, you hit them a bit too hard. And you don't know whether you should go sorry, or like, you know, I don't want to hit that hard. I just don't know how good you are. Yeah, you have all those weird dynamics when when sparring new people joining new teams. And that and that comes with with everyone that switches around. And for me, it was it was that aspect. But I would say even more so just the camaraderie before and after training, like when we're in the zone and we're training, I'm usually just good to go. But it's the, oh, we're stretching and talking and like, how do I enter this conversation? Like, who should I go talk to? Like, who do I stand by? Like, we're the cool guys, we're the weird guys, we're the these guys. And these are all things that, like, just mentally of all has been a struggle for me. And it's not to say that that I should be ranking anyone in this weird social hierarchy, but it's just just things that I've struggled with. And it just puts so much anxiety and pressure on me and myself that I didn't, you know, I guess I didn't realize that everyone else didn't go through all these same thought processes and things like that. So those were the biggest, the hardest things for me was transitioning to new teams, socially, rather than fighting, because when it's when it's in the cage and when we are sparring and training, it's like, oh, it's my skill versus yours. It's, it's I understand what's going on. But when it's me trying to like talk to these new guys that I don't know as like, oh, that kills me on the inside. I get what you mean about like the fight, like, there's so many rules and the so many sort of, like, you work up and you know exactly what you need to do in this situation. You need to defend yourself. You need to try and knock them out. You need to try and score points, whatever. And like, in real life, if someone wants to come up to me and start a fight, like, or speak to me, you know, aggressively or, you know, I don't really know at what point I'm okay to beat them up. Or, but like, I find I find that really, really hard in secondary school. Like, I knew that I was good at fighting. But it only, it took like, you know, a few people that were just kind of testing the boundaries to, you know, what point do I actually fight? And do I hit them as hard as I can? Or, like, there's so many questions about what the social implications of me attacking someone is, you know, no matter if it's, you know, like, for one person, it might be, oh, just run away. Or for another person, it might be, yeah, give them a fight, you know, because they'll stop doing it. Or the other person might say, oh, yeah, just knock them about a little bit. Yeah, but don't hurt them too much because then the teacher's holding you. Frustration. So much the computer is compute going on there. You know, one funny fact about myself is I've actually never even been in a street fight. I've only fought in the cage professionally and stuff. So it's, it's a lot of, like, people from when I was younger and classmates and things, when they hear that I ended up fighting and fighting the UFC and stuff, it's like, I didn't see that coming. But for me, like you're saying, there's a there's a lot of order and routine when you're actually in the training room. And, and that routine, I think was kind of my saving grace, because otherwise the world is just so crazy. You know, you know what you have to do. There's there's no sort of gray areas or anything. Like, you know what you can do in the cage. You know what your goal is, you know, the other person's goal is there's none of that sort of social complexity that's surrounding it. So like even people on TV and your audience in the crowd and stuff, they're watching you to do that thing. So you're going to do it. I'm like, but as soon as you step out of that sort of straightforwardness of just right, we're going to fight together. Both of us want to do it into like, the real world. It's like, how do I, how do I go about this? It's, um, it's one of the things that I still really haven't managed to suss out exactly what, what we should do, you know. Yeah, I'm with you on that one. I'm with you on that one. I have been looking a lot back at fighting and finding this order in it. And it makes sense a lot more now that there was more routine in it than I thought. Like, I thought that I'm a fighter, like I enjoy chaos, this and that, but it's really not the case. There's like this easily definable social hierarchy in fighting. You have your records, you know who fought who you have your organizations, you know that let's say the UFC is above a different organization like the LFA, which is more of a feeder to the UFC, things like that. And so there was a lot more order that I could see through fighting and it made my life simpler because it's like, okay, I go do this. I fight these people. I try to work my way up. You know, I spar with these guys. I need to beat these top guys because they beat this person. It all makes sense. Whereas when you're in this just social setting, it's like, I guess kind of confusing. I don't know. I don't know how to explain it. No, I get it completely again, man. I guess, you know, a really good question to ask is, you know, look, obviously you had your diagnosis post your UFC career, post fighting, stuff like that. Looking back, do you see any particular challenges or things that you found hard? Like for me, if I if I just go first and sort of list the things that I found hard, it was mostly about the lighting. The lighting is very harsh. And it's very bright. It's very white. And it really set me off the noises, the amount of people everywhere, especially when you're not in like a top like ranked event. It's absolute chaos. You don't know when you're going to fight at all. You don't know who you're going to fight, where, what time. So you just kind of have to like hang around in this, this big sports venue all day, and trying to stay warm and trying like, I think, I think also there's just a lot, there's a lot of pressure when you fight, especially for me in point point scoring, it feels, it felt a lot more twitchy to fight with somebody. And, you know, that puts a lot of pressure because it's like, oh, you let you let your guard slip at one angle and the catch you later. I mean, I've had meltdowns probably before about 30% of my fights. Like just just before I mean a panic attack just before my fight, I never stopped doing it. I managed to compose myself and get in the ring and sometimes one most of the time I won. But it was just kind of the whole the whole environment around it around the actual fight day was just absolutely horrific for me. Yeah, yeah, it's a lot if you have those types of sensory issues, there's there's a lot of chaos going on on the day. And especially as you said it, I could imagine not knowing like the time the order when you're going up things like that would kind of wreck you because at least with ours there there's a like more of a structured time thing. And especially as you got to the higher shows, there's like, oh, you're going to go on and it's going to be right around this time like this actual time. And I remember in my first few amateur fights, it was a little bit less structured. And it was kind of like, you know, I didn't know what to expect. And there's just so much anxiety that comes along with that, not knowing when you're going to fight what the crowd's going to feel like, what all the noises are going to be, you know, for me, after the first few fights, I managed and I was lucky enough to kind of get rid of some of those nerves. Because again, for me, like, I was so just intently focused on performing well and doing what I do best, that a lot of it came easy. And oddly enough, like I didn't have, like obviously everyone gets nervous, everyone gets really anxious. I didn't have any crazy meltdowns before fights. It was really after fights. It was when I lacked the structure, like I don't there's this date on the wall, right? Like this is one of my fight days. This is what I got to do. This is what way I got to be at. And as soon as that day was gone, I would always kind of go through a little moody phase. And my wife noticed it as well, that anytime I didn't have a date and a structure as to where I'm going to fight next, when I'm going to fight next, who I'm going to fight next. It I struggled mentally because, you know, I didn't have any routine at that point. I didn't know what was going on. I didn't know what to expect. And and then that's when I tend to get overloaded. Same like we're talking about a lot about like sorry, a lot about the routine and stuff for you, then I suppose. But I guess I guess like whenever I've watched you, the sea fights, you do have like your own like sort of room where you can like train and you have people and it's like a controlled environment. Like I can imagine that that's that's a lot nicer than because I suppose it's a consequence of mom and he being in USC then yeah, taekwondo, but yeah, definitely. That would help a lot. Yeah, yeah, because you have your own like mini little locker rooms, things like that. And you have your coaches there. And if you have good coaches like I have for most of my career, especially one of my head coaches who is my longest head coach out on Learner, you know, he also oddly enough shows a lot of trades to and he kind of suspects the same thing. But we resonated really well with each other and we just we always had a routine of what we do. So before a fight, we weren't doing anything new. We weren't training anything new. It was just like these coded words, this and that, we're going to hit the pads this way, we're going to move around, we're going to get this type of work in. And then we go out and fight. And so I think as a fighter and just as a human, you know, that sense of routine provides you with like a comfortable feeling. So even though there's that anxiety of the actual fight coming on, having that for me was was really comforting. So the world is tends to be a lot more confusing for us because we don't perhaps naturally understand the things that other people that are just like fed in from the environment, that body into their minds. So like from a very early age, we develop like a real sort of fixation on right. This is how things are going to go. I'm going to wake up. I'm going to have this particular food going to go to school. It's going to have this this this structure for this day. I come home, I have my tea, I go I go do some Taekwondo. I come back, I sleep and like, you know, that helped a lot with with me. And I just want to keep it a bit on topics we're talking about about the challenges. Yeah. Do you have any other other sort of things that you can you can remember? Was it mostly about the routine? Honestly, it was it was a lot of the routine. And like I said, too, it was it was more so the social challenges, because people don't understand to with with fighting and with MMA is that as much as I wish and a lot of us fighters wish it was only about the fighting, there's this whole like personal branding aspect that you have to do that it is sports entertainment at the end of the day. When you look at the place like the UFC and things, you know, the Conor McGregor's of the world and stuff. This is how you're going to make your money. You know, yeah, Patty, the bad, you know, just got a nice win and a tea bag. You know, I think I think I was working with an organization called Fighting for Autism. And I seem to remember seeing his face, seeing seeing that picture of him. So I think he might have been doing something. He's been actually yeah, he's been doing a lot with with mental health stuff and working with kids and things like that. So I wouldn't be surprised if he is doing that. And he's obviously, because of things like that, I'm rooting for him. I think that his, his entertainment style isn't as I think it's more lighthearted than Connor, which is a good thing because we all kind of saw where Connor went and who he turned himself into and is most definitely a bad guy now, or the bad guy. I don't know if he's playing that role, but it's leaking into his regular life. And the heel that has the heel. Yeah, the heel. But then when the heel starts punching old guys at the bar, then it's like, Oh, you got to get that under control, my man. So it is a weird thing of you, you see people like Connor, and then we try to model that because it's like, well, I need to get my money too. While I have this chance, like it really is even Dana White said in the UFC, like this is an opportunity is this isn't a career you can't be in fighting forever. Very few people get to stick around for a long time. And even if you do, there's no guarantee that you're going to be around the fight industry afterwards. So it is kind of like this real, you know, flash in the pants other thing, or flashing dirt, you're hopping in and you got to make your money where you can. So from an earlier stage, if you're paying attention, it's like you kind of need to market yourself, brand yourself on social media, things like that. And I feel like for me, that caused a lot of internal struggles, because now it's like, well, who am I? Just a fighter, you are a marketer and a fighter. Exactly. Exactly. And then it's, and then it's, I want to be true to myself. But you know, if you're someone like me, who's able to kind of mask around and and camouflage into situations, that's kind of just how I got about everything is then it becomes hard to like, okay, well, what do I portray? Like, who am I? Things like that. And these more, I guess, existential questions were arising. And those were an issue for me through this fight career. Again, it was like the fighting was the easy part for me, the learning. I love that. Like fighting is, I'm all about it. But all the other things around it, especially the social things, those probably the politics and yeah, because so like having good social skills and like charisma, it gets you so many places in life. Like it's it can literally enhance every single aspect of your life to have good social skills and charisma. So we're inherently it's a pretty big disadvantage of the of the bat. Like, you know, whether it comes to talking to coaches or sort of sort of melding into the training environment or getting opportunities or, you know, asking for a raise or, you know, all of those things. Yeah, you have to be liked by the person. You have to be like a figure and especially as a fighter, like having charisma and having sort of that sort of calm confidence or sometimes loud confidence is quite important sort of like marketing yourself, isn't that? So I think I'd be awful. I'd be awful at a press conference. I'd just be like, so I'm going to walk it. The other guys, I'm going to walk in, bam, knock out, going to, you know, refer up and just be like, are you sure? Like, I know that you're supposed to put this bravado on, but like, are you really sure that you're going to do that? And if not, like, I'm going to do up. Yeah. Or like, I don't know, because I wouldn't be able to switch myself into the press conference mode. I just, I just like, I just be a right clown. Honestly, people are here. You know, it's funny, you know something that did help me a lot with this is I'm a part of this, this YouTube channel called Fight Tips that my friend Shane Basin started. I love, I love fight tips. Yeah, Shane's, you know, he's it's massive right now. It's at 3 million and it continues to grow. And he saw something in me. Luckily enough, when we're just sparring together in LA one time and he asked me how I did certain move and I explained it. And, you know, he brought me on to teach some stuff. So, you know, I have some videos on there. I'm a part of the online program they have, we have courses on there. But it was really interesting because obviously with that being a YouTuber, you know, as well, and myself being a videographer, but usually someone behind the camera, you have to learn how do you like put on this persona to be in front of the camera. And the first few times, you know, I was filming with him, it was really hard for me. Like, I prepared for hours, dude, like hours, like thinking of what I'm going to say, like rehearsing everything, need to do that need to put on the face like I'm doing right now, smiling and all that. Like usually I don't smile this much. But because I know like you know, there's a podcast setting and things like that. It kind of just turns on now because I was filming and doing a lot of those videos with them. So it's not to say it's a good or bad thing, but it's it taught me like, how to kind of put on a little bit more of that charisma. And I think that that kind of helped me too through like fight interviews and whatever other podcast things like that. It helped me kind of learn how to mold myself to the situation more. So for me, I've always been good at kind of recognizing patterns and trying to understand them and being really curious about them. So that kind of helped me like deal with a lot of stuff as I was getting older and it allowed me to kind of camouflage and blend in with people. But at the same time, like, as you know, it's effort, right? I suppose that kind of brings us sort of into the advantages because like I suppose problem problem solving is one of the problem solving ability is one of the things I love that's quite highly linked to autism, like being able to kind of approach it from different angles more logically without the cloud clouded emotion, you know, I think one of the things that I found really beneficial to me as a autistic fighter was my pain tolerance. So I have a really I have a really low tolerance for sharp pain, like needles, scratches, things like that. They hurt so much. But when it comes to blunt pain, I am I can I can take it all day. And, you know, especially in Taekwondo, I remember this this this one fight. I think it was one of the first sort of ranked fights that I went into. And I was a junior at that point. I was about 78 kilos and they put me up. They put me up at this event. I think it was like somewhere in like Germany or Holland or something like that. And first match I was against top one ceded for my category. And he gave me the absolute biggest like I walked on to it and everything, the biggest back kick I've ever received in my life, like literally it's one of those weeks kind of like like it just like and then just dropped on the ground and I'm like, what? But I managed to get up like after a second, I'm just like, what the hell happened? I got up and I started fighting again. But I feel like there could be a lot of circumstances like that, especially like you know, you kick their elbow with a few too many times or you clash legs or I feel like most people would struggle with that pain. But for me, it was kind of like I can just could sort of brush off a little bit. Yeah, yeah, I definitely resonate with that too. And I would say probably, you know, a lot of a lot of us like they can for some reason you just you just tolerate it and it is kind of I guess you're in the moment it could be adrenaline could be there so that or it could be just that you have this this higher pain tolerance both physically, obviously with with the fighting and then emotionally, too, I feel like they both kind of go hand in hand, at least for me because if I'm suffering through whatever I am mentally or just going through that, I was always able to just like I will kind of push it aside and then on to the next fight or just keep going and keep showing up to training keep doing this and that. And, you know, it's probably not healthy to do that, obviously, but I think that for me, you know, I resonate with that the ability to just kind of take on that pain and just just keep going. Stoic, stoic sort of you know, one of those those fights that just kind of keep out of distance a bit, but keep one closing in and that kind of that kind of mentality like that. Yeah, yeah, I was a pressure fighter. I love doing that. Yeah. For me, for me, I was I was just absolutely mad, like I like you were saying about fights being like an outlet for mental health. That was that was me. I was I would literally just start off because we had about when I started, it was about one and a half minutes and then a minute break and then one and a half minutes and then a break one and a half minutes. So like the action has to be like really high from the get go and I did like loads of anaerobic training. Those are running those stuff so I could just keep up kicking like throughout the entire three rounds. Didn't always work like if I had a difficult opponent, then they'd gas me out and then take a few points of me and when at the end. But most of the time it worked and I think my ability is to kind of train so so much with weights and so much with like anaerobic training was a lot to do with my pain tolerance. Like I like even now like going to the gym, like I can I could do. Twenty sets every every single set being a drop set and I would enjoy that. Yeah, yeah, you're a madman. That it sticks with you. Whatever your sport you do, whether it's Taekwondo, whether it's lifting weights, like you're just going to kind of push yourself into these weird spots and yeah, now that that makes sense to me. They've got a screw loose. Also, also with the eye contact as well. I didn't like I don't like making eye contact with people that I'm fighting. I make a little bit like when we sort of stood at the side of the you know, as few would be kind of standing at the side of the cage waiting for the referee to say go for me, it would be kind of set on the chair. Getting my getting my gear all strapped on and stuff. But when I was in the actual fight. I don't move my eyes. I just keep my my eyes locked on like that upper torso. So like most people, they'd sort of be looking up and down where they're going to kick. But for me, I never moved my vision. So they couldn't sort of look at my eyes to see where I'm going to kick. Yeah, which helps a lot because I love that. I can't remember what it's called. Where you get where you go for a turning kick, you go for a just a normal, normal kick and then you flip it up and knock the right off. Yeah, like a little question mark or yeah, that extra. So you're going like towards the body and then going to the head. Yeah, I did a lot of those. I did a lot of those. A lot of stabs with side kicks, a lot of back kicks, that kind of. But I feel like the eye contact thing really helped me in that sense. Yeah, absolutely. It's a benefit there. Did you guys I got to ask, did you guys play the whole eye contact match before the match actually started? Have you kind of heard of that thing before? No, I know it. I know what you mean. But I did like when we were sort of like around in the venue and stuff, if I knew I was going to fight, I mean, I usually go one of two ways. If they're an asshole, then I will do that. And I'll just stare them down and sort of smile at them while I'm staring at them and talking to them. Sounds really bloody crazy in any other context. But if they're nice, then I'll kind of just like chat to them like a mate. And then soon as fight, fight times on, I just. I probably push harder than usual because they kind of expect you to be a bit more reserved because you're all friendly and stuff. But yeah. Yeah, my first few amateur fights, that was like the big thing was playing this eye contact match. So as soon as you step into the ring or they step in whoever goes in first, you're like staring at the other person and it's whoever breaks first loses, whoever breaks the eye contact first loses. So it was just it was dumb. Like I did it for maybe two or three fights max. I was like, what am I doing? Like I'm just adding more anxiety to this. Like I don't need that right now. This proves nothing to me, especially as someone who normally doesn't like to make eye contact naturally. Anyways, like for me, it was just it was too much anxiety. But yeah, I think back on, I'm so foolish. You see videos of like Mike Tyson, like before his matches, he's like, you know, he's like proper just, he got really anxious before his fights as well, actually. But he had this, he did that kind of staffing, but he just did it so well. He just kept locking on and he had all of this, like all of these knockouts behind them. So it was just like this crazy sort of aura that you gave off. But I don't think I, I don't think that's me. I don't think I could, I'm more likely to be nice and friendly and then fight. Yeah, yeah, I was more of the same way. I never really had that kind of attitude. It was weird though, because as you're saying how you're more of like an aggressive fighter. So I was a very aggressive fighter. Most of my fights were all, you know, basically keeping the fight on the feet, pressuring and dominating on the feet. And I was just a heavy pressure fighter like that. And so for me too, like I stopped needing the eye contact thing to act tough or anything. Cause I knew like, I'm going to make this fight kind of violent. This is the way I fight, like it's going to be a scrap. I don't need to like try to prove myself before it starts. So it was, it was just a fun phase to go through that though. Cause I look back and I'm like, dude, what are you doing? You're just a dumb little kid trying this out. You literally all of your attention is going on and trying to lock eye contact. Yeah. The bell goes and you're like, oh, fuck, like, what's my opening? Exactly. Exactly. Oh man. Oh, well, it's honestly really, really great to have any other advantages that you feel like the good old neurodiversity has brought you. Oh yeah, absolutely. I think for me, I've always seen patterns and a lot of stuff, like visually, mentally, like I just, I love connecting the dots. And I think with fighting, especially MMA, you have all these different arts, right? You start to realize the patterns of movement, the sequences of movement, how they translate into each other and then how that creates an advantage for you. So at least for me, I always picked up new moves, new techniques pretty quickly, especially when you have a sport, let's say jiu-jitsu or something like that, where most of the schools and teachings is the same way, like you come, you warm up, you go over the certain techniques for the day, you do your drills and then you start rolling or you start sparring with each other. And I would notice that a lot of my friends like are just not picking up the new movements quickly. And for me, I would like download them almost instantly. I wouldn't be able to use them all the time. And especially my fighting style, I just molded it to my fighting style. But I did know that I was really good at learning new things both inside and outside of the cage. You visualize someone doing it, you get them at the right angle, they do the kick and you're like, okay, so you can copy it, basically. Exactly, exactly. It's that ability to copy and see those patterns, like let's say we're doing a move on the ground and yo, that looks exactly the same if you shift that ground to the cage, now with my back on the cage, the same like my back was on the ground, I can kind of use those same principles, those movements, those patterns to my advantage. So for me, it was just, I don't know, I guess constantly analyzing the game and the sports and the mental aspect too. But just, I was all in, like I did before in the beginning, I was just really interested in fighting, just being interested in it. And then that kind of led to me being a fighter and that led to me really being about it, but it was just extreme like intellectual curiosity first. So I think that that being almost like one of my special interests, I guess, was a huge advantage for me because I was just thinking about it constantly and analyzing everything constantly. So you like learned about it before you got involved in the practical aspect to sort of watch fights, you watch videos on how to do certain kicks and how to, which style to adopt for what height or weight that you want to make. That's a step by watch. Yeah, and it was kind of taboo, honestly, like learning online in the very beginning when I started. And then now like, of course, everyone's coaching and they have their online classes and stuff. But, you know, that was like in the early stages of YouTube and everything too. So it was weird, like some schools, especially at jujitsu, which was like, a lot of guys would be like the old school ways, like you can only learn from me, things like that. And that's changing now, but it was kind of taboo to learn from these other places. But I would just be secretly online, like learning all these new techniques or trying to and things like that. So I think that aspect of my brain, like that fixation on learning, I think that definitely was an advantage because, you know, it allowed me to rise up to the rankings pretty quickly. So I turned pro when I was 27, I got into the UFC when I was 30 and that's a pretty quick turnaround for especially someone who turned pro really late in their life. Yeah, yeah. And I fully attribute that to, to kind of, you know, being autistic and just being all the way in. It's really a way to say that, sort of very quick sort of rise up in skill level. Because most of the people that I used to fight, they'd been training in tag wonders until like six or eight or like, like the whole life basically. I started when I was 14 at very, very, very traditional tag wonder place for a couple of years when I was 16, moved to a competitive sort of the sport side of it that you see on the Olympics and stuff like that. And now I got quite far in quite, very, very few years actually, sort of looking back on that. Yeah, I could be allowed that same thing. Had in recognition that ability to just dial in, I guess. I mean, what do you think? Don't know. I used to perform really badly in like, my own country with people that I knew. Like, because I always used to sort of try to, you know, I want to dominate them because they're in my country and I'm the champion. I'm going to dominate them just so that then, you know, when I see them about or something, they give me some kind of weird respects. I don't know, but when I went abroad, like fighting people that I didn't know, I actually did really, really well. I did, I went to the under 21 European championships in Romania and, you know, at the time they weren't so high up, but there's people in there who are like gold medalists now in the Olympics, silver medalists, you know, top tier sort of taekwondo athletes that we all went over and we fought in our individual weight classes. And I did the best start of everybody and I lost to the eventual Russian winner. Now, I think that was probably my, you know, looking back, considering where they are now, you know, it's probably a bigger highlight than I thought it'd be. Like, just because I didn't get a medal, like I still won like three fights against the world's top tier, top tier, yeah. Yeah, it's amazing. I am wanting to trial out going back into it, but as you know, I am currently recovering from an ACL operation. I got it done last, not last Wednesday. Yeah, the Wednesday before last. So it's been nearly two weeks. It's been awful, but I'm actually surprised that I've been able to sit in this chair for so long. It's definitely very painful. I had my ACL reconstructed, my MCL reconstructed and cartilage removed and how they do it is they sort of take like one of your hamstrings and like basically feed off about a length of tendon from your hamstring and then like drill a hole in the top bone, hole in the bottom. Oof, you did it, frail. Yeah, that does not sound good. I've heard of some, sometimes it like doesn't take or something, is everything going okay in your process so far? It's actually been pretty, pretty, pretty well to be honest. I mean, I think it's full extension now. Like the physio is the worst part of it. I can bend past 90 degrees now, which those are the main markers because you don't wanna have like impingements, team movements or anything like that. But I'm on very heavy doses of tremolo at the moment. Yeah. I could imagine that was a lot of stuff they had to do to clean up that knee and get it right. My stitches removed recently and that really helps, but it's a work in progress. I think maybe I might be able to return to proper training in probably about nine months. So it's a while, but I can sort of, gotta build my flexibility up and all that. Yeah. And how would you deal with the, obviously you wouldn't be trying to compete at that high level. I think a hard thing for me going through this process of being retired now and with something that I would assume you would face as you go back into it is, how do you find that right balance right of training for the fun and being slightly competitive, but not letting yourself get lost to the identity of being this high level competitor type of thing. I think that's been difficult for me. If I had my location right, like I had the gym quite close by, then I'd be able to train two to three hours every day and not sort of impact of our areas of my life. I tend to be very, very busy all the time with various different things. But it's always been, just having the cardio and any type of fitness. Like it just does something to your brain. Like you feel calmer, you feel a bit more, you feel a bit more like yourself, a bit more present, quite a bit more focused. And like when you go through a hard session and you sort of push yourself to pass away, you think you could have pushed yourself to, you feel good about that and you're like, why can't I do that in other areas of my life? I think the fight, that sort of stoic fighter mentality is really underrated. Like, I suppose sort of leading on to our last question, it's kind of related to this, but we obviously have a big problem of bullying for autistic people. It happens at a much larger rate, a lot of isolation, a lot of mental health that's developed particularly during secondary school or high school. And I guess, how do you think learning martial arts can help these people that are finding some of these situations, other than that sort of stoic mentality that can help you get through other areas of life? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think it can help so much. I think being able to learn martial arts, being able to go in and train, you learn more about yourself in terms of what you can handle. You learn that you can face adversity day in and day out. You learn that you can grow, you can start to add more of these techniques and things to your arsenal. And you also obviously learned that you could be physically safe. And I think by kind of combining all of those into one aspect, martial arts is a really good tool for people to obviously stop the bullying in a physical way, but just being more confident. And oftentimes it takes really just that aura of confidence, whether you have it or not, it's the appearance of it can shake a bully off. And I think that martial arts gives you those tools. And I've seen it. Most of the gyms I've been a part of have had like anti-bullying programs for kids and whatnot. And so good. Yeah, it's great. And it is really cool to see these kids in there and grinding away and you see them being enforced in these social interactions and being learning how to control their bodies and everything. But it just, it develops so much confidence as someone who's an adult who got into martial arts rather than doing it from when I was really little and building my way up. It for sure helped me so much develop that more of that confidence. And I'm not here saying that I'm super confident. Like clearly I have my issues and had my issues and was wondering all these weird social things this whole time. But I'm much, much better off than when I was before I stepped into the gym. So yeah, it's a great vehicle for go out there. I feel like people really, really get wrong what confidence is about. Like when people think of confidence, they think of like, I've got a lot like Conor McGregor everywhere. Like I've got to be, I've got to be the aggressive domineering person that kind of walks in and you know, if anyone says anything to you, you tell them what's what and if not you beat them up or people think that's confidence. But like confidence is just the ability to be non-reactive to what people do. Like someone threatens you. You're like, I know how to fight pretty well. Like you'll come, it's like they're the challenger. You're like coming to you rather than sort of equal playing field or above. Like you may see them as, you know, before you train in martial arts or combat or you know, things like that. And I think that the best way to build that confidence is through competence. So like how good you are at something. Having a lot of confidence about around fighting and not being very good at fighting is just like, what do you call it? Arrogance. Yeah, absolutely. It's more common with Greg's stuff. It's more being arrogant than anything. Like if you wanna see someone who's like confident, you know, a really great example would be like Vladimir Klitschklau or like, butchered his last name, but you know what I mean? That sort of calmness, that non-reactivity, that sort of, it can do a lot for people because they kind of expect you to react when they do something to antagonize you. And if you don't, and you kind of just don't really sort of flow yourself to their level. I mean, it doesn't always work, but it does work in most situations in my life. It has like avoiding fights has been the best thing about fighting. Yeah. Yeah, no, absolutely it is. There's that famous Bruce Lee movie, right? Where someone's challenging him on the boat to a scrap. And he's like, okay, let's take this little boat off their main ship and let's go to that island and we'll fight. The guy gets in the boat and he kicks it off. And then he lets the guy kind of just float away and it is that ability to stay calm and kind of avoid the fight, just be self-assured. And I think that that's the real type of confidence that martial arts is trying to instill to be able to keep calm under pressure. And that's an important thing. And then obviously have those tools to, as you said, not be arrogant with it, to know actually how to defend yourself, but to be calm in all those situations is just really important. I really like that Bruce Lee analogy. Especially when you're a kid and you're surrounded in this complex environment, you may not even know you're autistic. You may know, but not really understand it or understand the people around you. And I mean, just in general, like having some routine to exercise, it just helps, you know, it helps if you're confident. Like parents are so apprehensive about letting the kids do martial arts. Like the coaches, they're gonna throw them in with the adults and full contacts. Like, you know, it's not like that. You know, even at my size, six, three, I've sparred with eight-year-olds before. They didn't really stand a chance for it. But we just had fun with it and stuff. And I think it does really depend on the gym sometimes. You can get some bad gyms out there, but most of them that I've seen, you know, really great places to kind of build a human who's confident in themselves, competent, you know, have some structure to their lives, that kind of thing. I mean, there's nothing wrong with that. Yeah, no, and like we talked about before, facing that daily struggle and then learning to overcome it, either by winning, winning your match, learning new moves, whatever it is, or by losing your match, losing the sparring match, and then coming back the next day to do it all over again. You know, it's about facing that struggle. And you know, you just keep coming back, and soon you'll learn that you can overcome these obstacles. One of my favorites, so Marcus Aurelius and Ryan Holliday wrote a popular modern book on it. It's called The Obstacles of the Way. And I think that Martial Arts is a great teacher for that because life will throw so much at you and some of it's gonna be in our control and a lot of it won't be. But we just gotta kind of bear that and just keep going at times, you know? So that's, you know, Martial Arts is a great tool for that. Well, I think that's all of the questions that I had to ask you. I have like a little segment because it's season two of my podcast and I'm trying to like spruce it up a little bit. So we've been doing this thing called Song of the Day. So do you have a particular song in mind that, you know, perhaps when you were training or you were just about to go into a fight that you would always put on? Song of the Day. I know we were talking a little bit about this before. Kendrick Lamar is my guy. You know, I started fighting when I was in LA. So he's my guy. He just came out with a new album and there's a song called The Heart Part Five. And that one is more about perspective and life experiences. And for me, that's really important to me. And yeah, it just resonated so much. So it's either that song or if I'm actually walking into a fight, it would be Mad City by him, by one of his older albums. But yeah, Kendrick's my guy and that song always gets me fired up in. It's one of my walkout songs. So it's a classic for me. Nice, nice. I love them both on the playlist. Trying to build like a Spotify playlist and like put everyone's songs of the day on because I would really love to like play like background music like throughout the podcast. And it's just not feasible. So maybe if I was like an organization or a company or like the BBC or something, then I might be able to, but just me on my own, it's not really feasible. Yeah, and those copyright content guys, we'll strike it down for that one. I feel you on that. Exactly, exactly. And yes, well, I hope you have enjoyed this episode. Of course, you can find the Forty Otie podcast anywhere. Spotify, Apple music, Google podcasts, blah. And if you wanna follow the other stuff, the other work that I do, maybe see the video version of this interview. If you feel like it, I would really appreciate a rating because I have not been asking for ratings for a long, long time or throughout the first season. So if you can, give me a nice few stars, preferably five, that would be great. Do you have any links or anything that you'd like to share with the win? Yeah, absolutely. I'm currently running a little project. One of my later interests now has been web three. So you can check that out at mixmartialautis.com. We're trying to help share my story and use that where all the sales of this story, it's all benefiting the Autism Society of Hawaii, which is a nonprofit organization, obviously back home and from in Hawaii. But it's gonna be a fun, kind of unique art project where it's part autobiography, of part me talking about fighting and everything and looking back on my life now with this newly discovered lens of, you know, actually being autistic. And right now you can find me. Yeah, yeah, hooray, hooray. You can find me on Instagram, obviously, at advancedeanomaly and on website advancedeanomaly.com. Cool. Well, have you enjoyed your 40 or 30 experience? Oh, I loved it, man. Yeah, thank you so much for having me on. I really appreciate it and giving me like a platform to share what I'm about. You know, obviously this whole thing has been new for me and it's been a fun adventure, kind of seeing everyone's different perspectives and just the diversity within this neurodiverse crowd is it's kind of insane how wide that spectrum is, how in so many different directions it is. So it's really cool to kind of understand and feel like I actually kind of fit in for once too. It is great. So thank you, man. I appreciate it. Awesome stuff. It's been absolutely amazing talking to you. And I was going to say fangirling, but fangirling all about MMA, combat sports. It's not often that I get to talk about it being out of the, well, you know, once you're in the fight game, it's all that you talk about. Once you're out, there's no one to talk about it. Yeah. Exactly. But yeah, hope you guys have enjoyed this episode and for me and Vince, I hope you have a lovely rest of your day. See you later, folks. Thank you, guys.