 Podcasters round table round 93 podcasting advice then versus now So we're gonna talk a little bit about what has changed over I guess the last decade or pretty much since we've been around which is oh You guys hear that You got the live The live is up. All right. We don't need to hear Ray double time. It's in my ears So I think we have enough it's just us today I invited a lot of people couldn't get a new round table or this one was tough because you kind of had to have been around for a Long time in podcasting and then you also kind of need to be so many gives advice because we've been giving Standard advice for a long time about starting a podcast growing a podcast you name it things have changed We don't give the same advice that we used to give so we're gonna dig into some of those things that have changed and Yeah, we'll just see where it goes. We have a little bit of a list here, but welcome to the show It's just hope it's just co-hosts. We have three co-hosts. Essentially Dave Jackson Yeah, Dave Jackson from the school of podcasting calm This should be fun. We should title this back in the day Because that's kind of what we're doing Yeah, this is back in the day. You can give us one good back in the day Back in the day. I was thinking about that today. I missed my eye river You miss your eye, right? You don't have it on the shelf. Everyone's got like their podcast It's in a it's in a case someplace She box you gotta like put it on a little stand and then like spray paint it gold and put it on a little wood plate Make it into an award you could we can start our own award show with the iRig is a golden That would be cred Daniel J. Lewis. Welcome back Thank you very much. I'm from the audacity to podcast calm That come all right. Well, let's I guess let's dig right into it I mean, we all have shows about podcasting including this one and I think first thing on my list. This is always like are we still talking about this feed burner the big F Like, okay, so here's the thing Dave back in the day What was the advice with feed burner? Well back then we were all trying to figure out iTunes had just come out and we're like, oh man They're apples making it hard. They've we've got to have these special codes in our feet How are we going to get those codes in the feed in pops feed burner? And we're like hallelujah. This is the best thing ever You just throw your feed in there and the beauty of it of course is if later you decide to change Web host or anything you just update your feed and feed burner. This is the best thing since sliced bread and Ouvrey we all jumped on our feed burner feed and we would obsess over our feed burner stats then Yeah, and I mean, I loved having this sort of facade to work behind this this, you know feed burner was in between where you were hosting and Something like iTunes or wherever directory is pulling your audio and you could work behind feed burner change things up and never affect Anyone, I mean we can move our feeds now and do that too, but it just it was nice It was something that we that made it kind of easy Especially back in the day when we all were probably tinkering and wrenching on our podcast quite a bit things changed and You know so Daniel What was were you were you talking about feed burner the very from the very first day that you're launching a how-to podcast the audacity of I think I was way back then And that Well, I don't know I think I still Recommended feed burner as a means to cash and protect your feed and make it easier to move which in some ways those two things cash and Make it easier to move are the only two reasons I might still recommend it But I can't remember the last time I actually recommended using Smartcast which is the real crime of feed burner and all of its other features Okay, so what's changed so if we had said someone up with feed burner before they might have been using smartcast Smartcast gave you what the iTunes tags? Yeah, what smartcast was created to do is turn a regular RSS feed into a podcast RSS feed So smartcast would give you that iTunes data Not only has it not been updated in a while like it still recommends that you make your cover art 600 by 600 inside of it and we know now that's that's very old. It needs to be much bigger There's some other things too, but the the big problem with it is if If you're feeding feed burner a Podcast ready RSS feed from power press or from Libsyn and you use smartcast it can now create Problems in your feed it can mess up certain things copy data over and the feed burner stats Also completely inaccurate as well as if you're using media download stats inside of feed burner That can mess up your downloads on certain platforms So there's a lot inside of feed burner that breaks stuff. It's not just bad advice. It does actually break things And then on top of that on occasion it just quits updating So you'll you'll have somebody go that's weird I've put out three episodes and none of them are in iTunes well Because feed burners between your feed your actual feed and iTunes it just stalls and you have to go in and go to the troubleshoot ties tab and click on I think it's Sync or something like that sync now or something like that and you're back up in business, but Like nuke didn't they used to call it. Yeah, it was something. They used to scare the heck out of you like don't press his button So the other than that it's it's perfect Paul's asking if he should Paul call against in the chat He's asking if you should host on odio. I say yes 100% host on odio, you know when I back in the day when I first started I went to odio And I was like this is amazing. Well, we all know what odio is now Yeah, no, absolutely still not making any money the big Twitter. Yeah, who's they don't make well, that's what they say I don't know if I buy it, but yes, it's now Twitter. So Twitter was once a podcast hose. What? Get back in the game near Twitter. Go back to roots. So yes, if you have access to odio host there, it's crazy All right. Um, so what is the going advice? What has changed? What would you say? We know Daniel? You still wreck you still? don't You don't completely dismiss feed burner Right, you mentioned that But in general, I'm not going to recommend that someone use it it can be good in certain circumstances at least for now because of the caching and Especially if you're using some non-standard platform like Squarespace or SoundCloud or blogger or wordpress.com or something like that feed burner Might be necessary to add the podcasting information to your feed or if nothing else It can make it much easier when you take your podcast seriously and you get your own website Or move over to a better podcasting platform But even then if you're going to use feed burner I really recommend that you would use the my brand feature which lets you make it use your own URL So that even if feed burner died overnight literally disappeared Then you would still own the URL and not have to worry about what feed burner does You could just then get some expert to help you make sure that URL redirects to the proper place so that so what has changed is before we'd say use feed burner fill out these Infrared fill out these boxes and there you go. You get yourself a podcast feed. Maybe some of us are Sometimes we'd say that now we'd say unless you really know what you're doing Probably try to go a better way. I would certainly say I for me. There's no use for it anymore I'm going to go to something like Libs and Yeah, I mean our press on my own site exactly in both those power press Libs and spraker Pod being most of the media host now Give you a way to put in all those iTunes tags and all the four that I just listed also make it pretty easy to Move your feet. So for some reason you want to go from one host to another They all have a way of saying hey, I my host isn't here anymore. It's over there So the the fact that you can redirect it and you have your iTunes tags It's not really needed Remind me remind Daniel Daniel remind to bring back up Has the advice on how to move Your feet has that changed? Yeah, it has How Dave It used to be it was weird in Because you have your original feed and then you have your new feed will call it original and new it used to be you would put You could put a new tag iTunes new tag in The original one iTunes would come along hit that and then redirect to the new feed and now what the Recommending is you put in a redirect a 301 redirect and in the new feed You put the new feed tag which seems kind of silly the 301 actually takes care of most of that I think the new tag in the Isn't it make it faster though the new tag will make things happen faster and I do Yeah, and and that's not exactly new that's the way it really should have been all along Because if you put the new the iTunes new feed URL tag in your original feed that you're redirecting That tag will never be seen because it's being redirected before it can even be read So it was always a better thing to put that on the resulting feed Even if like you have concerns that iTunes might be looking at the wrong feed to put that in your resulting feed And that will make sure everything works properly. We have a dangerous one in the chat John Norris says the proxy RSS feed on Apple means you change your host without a hassle Dangerous, that's new advice. We're talking old advice and that's new bad advice Yeah, I mean well and so a lot of here's the thing you get access to that when you when you now go Submit your podcast that has changed but that's not really advice It's kind of how you have to do it where you submit your podcast to Apple podcast. That's also changed You get access to this proxy RSS feed thing Option whatever, but I I say don't mess with that. I mean is he talking the mirror Yeah, probably the mirror feed or what I'm thinking. I don't even I'm not that familiar with it because I just stayed away from it because It's I don't think that that's a good way to go Now, I mean it may be something they're building towards. I don't know. What do you guys think? I? Just know it was a while ago, but I know for a while it had a spell for I Don't know a day or two where it didn't work. Yeah, I wouldn't even though it was an Apple product And so to me because I I can move it In my whoever I'm using, you know my host I kind of don't need it. So why muddy the water? And plus I think that what that would work for iTunes, but it wouldn't work for everybody else Unless you gave everyone else RSS yeah, but then aren't you kind of giving away control at that point to Apple? I mean your RSS feed becomes this proxy feed that I Sound familiar with it. I it's not some again. That's a thing. Don't touch it Yeah, that's the thing. Can you later decide now that you've given everybody this Apple? Mirror feed How do you redirect that? I don't know that you can take control this this RSS feedest thing is so important and you know, we could we could piggyback on that has that changed has changed, you know in terms of Creating an RSS feed where you create that RSS feed. We're talking about control Has that changed? I know in the beginning, you know, I think I was using free hosts that we can talk about Premium verse free. I think I was using blip TV when I started an audio only podcast That's not advice. I would give And you know when I had to move not only move hosts move feed that became Became an issue was able to do it from the way I set it up, but It's not advice, you know, now I'm going to I'm gonna want more control than just a free service Yeah archive.org was one of those things that I think to this day continues to be recommended as free hosting for part of the problem is that some big podcasters use it and You know, I still like it as a as a put your podcast there as a backup option, right? I mean archive.org and put it there So it'll sort of live on past you if you want or as a backup because it's free and in theory It's going to remain since they're trying to archive the web, but Yeah, to host your show there. I think there's a moral question to it or ethical Maybe ethical question to doing that which I think you shouldn't violate But Daniel, what are you you're thinking that that was a recommendation that people used to give quite often Yeah, it's For starting out, you know to do something free I think if you're going to start out there are other things to do but the whole idea is If you're if you're trying to do something for free, let it be for trying to just start not Run your podcast on a regular basis cool Paul continuing with the humor. He's how you think he's heckling us from the chat room You can join us up here and do this in person Paul. I know he has to go but he says What do you do if there are no more podcast names with the word fire in it? He says too soon, but there is something there like what are we used to say? What do you has any advice changed in terms of naming your show? I mean a lot of shows used to start off with or have the word podcast in it, right? And maybe one of the time maybe one of the reasons you say that or Someone might give that advice is because they can't get the podcasters studio.com Or podcasters roundtable.com so they say hey just slap a podcast on there podcasters roundtable podcast.com Now in this case, it's a bad example because it sounds redundant and terrible, but and I think there's that aspect that many of us still feel like a Podcast I'm gonna borrow Tom Webster's language here. He says that we shouldn't really be treating ourselves like Podcasting is a special snowflake We're creating shows and it's not to say that what we create is not good It's that we shouldn't treat it like it's its own silo. It's own standalone thing It's special and completely different from everything else in the entire world We need to treat it as it's a show Yes, distributed via podcast and for many of us that's the only method of distribution But now especially in the last couple years there have been so many more channels of distributing that same content than before Skeptic smash podcast his best advice I was ever given was to never use pod in the name and never use a mic as a logo Yes, thank you And don't put your podcast in the podcasting category and iTunes Yes, don't do that. Yeah People people wonder if they're you if you're hearing that and you're wondering what the heck's going on There are categories you can put yourself in when you submit to iTunes or in your RSS feed, right? And one of these is podcasting people just think I have a podcast I'm in the podcasting category, but these this is really a Category for kind of our show right podcast about podcasting. I mean what else fits in there There's everything in there though so it makes it really hard for any one of our shows to stand out because people I mean you're hurting yourself at that point you Don't want to be found for podcasting if you're a you know a crocheting podcast, right? But you know history something. Yes, it's like no never thought that battle, but there's nothing to fight I mean, it's just yeah, it's you know That is good advice though to know how to properly categories your categorize your podcast because what's that affecting? I mean, what are we doing there when we're picking, you know on itunes you get three And I think at that top level is the most important one, right? Yeah Well, yeah, it's it's really the one that matters most But you don't only get three it depends on the tool that you're using how many it gives you power press gives you three Feed burner gave you five. I think Lipson. I think lets you do three or so iTunes or just in your feed for for the iTunes categories, which also then Work for Google Play music as well, but it's really only that first category that matters most Is that because of the way different? Apps pull from the API that maybe then I'll pull the second and third category. They only pull the first I Think it's more for a structure sake So if you're going to like in itunes when you look at your podcast and you see at the top what category it's in What category is going to display there? That's going to be the first one and I've heard that like, you know, no worthy what's hot even maybe even ranking Only really applies to the first category now the ranking thing I'm not so sure but it's kind of difficult to test because you could rank really well in one category But take that exact same position Weight to your podcast and put that in a different category and you're up against completely different competitions So you may not rank the same so it's very difficult. I think to cross compare Right What could be helpful is look at and maybe we should check this maybe I'll check this while we're talking I will check this look at a very popular podcast That's in one category and then see what other categories they're in and see if they dominate that other category too I'm gonna do that right now Awesome. All right. I will move us to the next you literally got the first thing in the list You know in the pre-show. I'm like, do we have enough and this always happens like it's like halfway through We're three things down. That's good. That's a good problem to have we'll have no problem Actually did hit archive org. So let me just strike through that one. Well something you mentioned Ray I think makes a good point back in the early days It was a big thing and highly recommended to do a video podcast Do you think that's changed now? Yeah, I mean, I don't generally recommend a video podcast in fact a lot of times If you want to do video I would I would push towards a YouTube channel I mean you just but there's no reason you can't then put that in a podcast feed However video podcasting can be extremely expensive. It's difficult. So because audio has become synonymous with the word podcast Because people can are freed from the screen at that point and can listen in more places. If your stuff doesn't absolutely need to be seen I would say start with an audio show not only that it's easier like conquer the audio It audio is hard enough to produce, you know, it's hard enough to get right and to do. Well, I would say start with that And if you find you have some time extra time, maybe augment your audio show with short YouTube type clip. So yeah, you know in the beginning I started with a video podcast and I was probably as I would say they were probably equal footing for me because video podcast We're pretty popular in the beginning At least in my consumption habits, but I did feel like we had TV bar TV. We had Dignation Totally ratchet. We had these big podcasts bigger podcasts or a video which a geek beat I mean, we had some big video podcasts in the space audio boom I don't go to iTunes. I'm a video guy and I do not get my video shows from podcasts. Yeah I think like back then Thank you of it as well for myself Yeah, we didn't have YouTube back then we didn't have Hulu and online streaming Netflix So podcasts were really the only ways that we could get a show that we could watch on Demand without having to have recorded it off the TV, right? We also didn't have HD Right gosh. No, I mean remember you there was and when we did you'd get you'd have like Video podcast download large download small. Yes, like and I had to make a lot of those files It was terrible. I made files for like portable game stations and phones three GP files Oh my god, this no, okay So there's a question if you're going to do a video podcast if there's a very good legitimate reason to do video Should you still do multiple resolutions? I do too I would do one in HD for lack of a better phrase throw that on YouTube Put that on the website so that my visitors come there can see the cool, you know HD video And then I would make a version smaller size for Tablets slash phones that way the files not going to be as big it's not going to be as expensive and Shouldn't take as long to download. So you're saying this smaller version for the podcast. Yeah, yeah I would I would I have not tried this. I have not dug deep into it. It's something I recently discovered Probably because of this show for every podcasters roundtable the audio only version when I create that I Download this the 720p Um video file from YouTube because this is recorded live to YouTube and I scroll through and I looked for a thumbnail I watch way too many free streams of you guys in your faces and I pick out I try to pick out something good for for our guests, you know, I don't know what we're gonna have for this one, but You but you need to be the thumbnail. I was like the number one thumbnail and that's good enough so the thumbnail I Get from there, but I noticed that What is normally a huge file? I upload I have my own YouTube channel and I upload 4k to it if you download the MP4 even like the HD version It's tiny and this makes sense YouTube has like magical unicorns compressing Their video and they have to because of the amount of video that goes up there So I can download that file. It still looks pretty good, even though it's been compressed to all heck So I had this thought that hey if I did a video podcast I would upload my HD file to YouTube kind of like what you're saying Dave But I would download it back down from YouTube after after the unicorns do their work And that's what I would put in my feed because you can still get a really nice high-resolution file at a relatively small file size so I You know Don't save the work. Yeah, you know, someone's gonna have to go and check on that But it's an interesting hack that may work because I'm not saying you can use YouTube the host That's a very dangerous one that has never been the case But download it from your dashboard and to compare the size and the quality you might have a file size That you can fit into your hosting Account so something interesting to look into fun fun derail there anytime. Yeah video. I'm gonna get excited Well, I'm plus that might save you some time. Yes, I'm having to re-rip it Just let it rip it and download it later. Yeah And even if you use Vimeo it Vimeo will do several of those trans codes for you They'll do a large small medium So there are heads or sort of hacks for that and those the services tend to do it better than you know compression Back in the day used to be it's such an art and a science Compression is terrible. Fortunately most video editors these days have presets for YouTube and Vimeo and they work really well So I still do this every day. I still do a video podcast We have at work still put in the feed and to be honest with you our video podcast at work Still gets way more views from the podcast feed than it does on YouTube, so there's still value to it I think for sure About I have now my list USB microphones now I don't recall the history of my own microphone recommendations, but USB heck USB made have been up there. I'm I started with a snowball Yes, I was I was I did that you guys it can happen but I quickly would not recommend that. I'm not sure I even really recommended it I'm not sure I started I definitely didn't start the podcast studio with a snowball. So were you guys recommending has that changed as Recommendation for USB. I mean Dave you're on one right now. So you probably should talk about it. Yeah, I think I used to recommend The SM 58 Because again, it was often. Yeah, we'll go to the SM 58. Yeah, and I think before that I I had played with some condenser microphones So I'd used the Audio Technica 20 20. I had a AKG Something something for the AT 20 20. That was my first was at the USB or the no it was back Then it wasn't USB. It was it was yeah, that was my first pro microphone I went to guitar center and thought I made it dude. I bought a better than Radio Shack Don't that brings a tear to my eye because all the rear shacks are closing and I still need Radio Shack Like twice a year you guys come on you can't see those cables twice a year four dollar purchase So that's I think that was what I was recommending and then I forget when For me it was Father Roderick had a thing on his website Comparing some microphone to the 2100 and I was like man, that sounds cool. And then he said it's it's both XLR and USB and I was like sold and bought one. So Daniel, have you changed on USB microphones? I I Don't think so. I have changed on microphones that I recommend But would have okay, so we have that we have the the magical ATR 2100 now Which we didn't have back then but you were still recommending a USB microphone before the ATR 2100 No, I never recommended USB only and I will never recommend USB only Because when I say we changed only. Yeah, we changed a little bit. I get you I'm saying a microphone that that's the only connection style so even back in the beginning what I was recommending is get a mixer get an XLR microphone if it can connect via USB That's cool and added bonus, but it'd be better to start with professional gear That's XLR. Connectable then something that locks you in with excellent with USB now today. I think if someone the hard thing is to recommend something for someone to grow with them and USB only microphones Don't grow because if you want to get two people then it starts getting complicated and all kinds of other things get complicated but there are some podcasters who only ever want to podcast by themselves and In such cases, maybe a USB is fine Yeah, that's why when I see someone who says oh, I bought the the Yeti or whatever microphone That's USB only if it's an okay microphone like the Yeti is a fine microphone a little bit overpriced too big and Very prone to user error, but if they already have it They don't need to replace it with an ATR 2100. They've already got a good enough microphone. And so that's more where I try to focus now is What is it that you actually need then saying oh here's this thing. This is what you take Go and that's the beauty of the 2100 is it we can you can start off and it grows just like you're saying I mean that is and I mean that's just like icing on the cake because the microphone is Amazing it sounds great Dave sounds fantastic and It does the job really well at a very affordable price again that grows with you I did finally find a weakness of the ATR 2100 in my studio, which you are kind of seeing right now You'll see I'm on the high all right now I use the ATR all the time in fact podcast round table was dominated by me for the most part not dominated But for the most time I held the ATR 2100 it worked fantastic for the setup I needed and I went back to the boom arm and What I noticed and you know that actually the high all is specially shielded against External like interference right has a special something I just read about it today and The ATR is more susceptible to the there's an issue in the studio where I get some kind of RF electrical Some kind of interference the ATR picks that up like a charm I'll I don't know that the high all blocks it completely But it if what's weird is if I the position you see me and I'm in the twit position right now I've got the high all pointed vertically up at my face right and this is how you see them do it on twit and This position Does shield against that issue if I had the ATR like this you'd be hearing a buzz in it So that makes sense. I mean typically professional quote-unquote better built in terms of how their innards are They are more susceptible to being thrown around I have some 58s famous because you can drive a truck over it And I literally saw my boss use as a hammer and then we use it as a question mic not joking. It was amazing The in the high all this solid so I did find that difference in the build quality but other than that and that is such a rare thing and no one I've recommended it to has ever had that problem and Lifetime warranty Daniel's already taken advantage of it. So, you know, it's a solid microphone But in terms of recommending yeah, you know for me It's always recommending the microphone that's best for the person and the beauty of the ATR is you can Recommend it to anyone and they can grow into it and you don't sacrifice, you know I don't think that 99.5% of your audience is gonna know difference between you got on ATR and you got a high on you. Oh your sound is better No, it's not gonna happen Your sound might become muddier. That's what they might notice The high all is actually harder to work with in the ATR. Yeah sound I get out of the ATR is ready to go I don't think the high all is ready to go without eq personal opinion. I would agree with that I've had some people that I've interviewed and Getting their audio over Skype or it's a little compressed and I always have to kind of go in and I know we all want that big Boomi sound but their time is what I'm like Too much boom in the boom mud is yet to mud. I I know some really big podcasts They use the ATR and they're using it wrong I mean I I mean besides I've seen people talking to the side of it It does say front firing here at the top and they literally has a person with their mouth at the top But it's a muddy and people mistake that as ooh, I got the boomy radio voice No, you have a I'm behind a door mud voice Which I'm even guilty of myself of a violating but that's the high all is naturally like that in my opinion Yeah, you know when my wife and I did my 300 first episode recently I found old clips from old podcast episodes that I played during certain portions of the story And I found the clip where I upgraded from One of those super cheap mic packs that you could get from musicians friends That was the mic stand the microphone and the XLR cable for $20 I was upgrading from that little microphone that looks like an SM 58 But was super cheap to the high all PR 40 and I listened to that episode and in that episode I was like listen to that beautiful sound of my voice now looking back at that and Hearing the difference from that cheap microphone to the high all PR 40. I Actually like the sound on the cheap microphone better. It sounded more natural. It didn't sound so Boomy artificial. I'm the voice of God and you can't have a relationship with me Which I just that's a horrible theological statement. I just made sorry about that if you're keeping track But so that the main point is have a microphone Once you have one worry about other things check move on So let's let's we don't want to derail from a microphone conversation because come on We're on fire right now Let's let's go further into that Here's one you hear everyone say Get a dynamic microphone because that condenser is way too sensitive well, and they'll say condenser microphones pick up more background noise and Dynamic microphones block it out. I'm so on the fence here I this is still being worked out in my purse in my own world I will concede that I think there is some that that blanket statement is not wholeheartedly correct But Daniel, what do you want to say about that? It is I think one of the biggest myths in podcasting microphones is that dynamics are better than condensers Many of us have propagated that myth and many people simply repeat us that the truth is that Microphones what just audio doesn't work the way? It seems we're often communicating when we say a dynamic is better than a condenser What a condenser does is it picks up more frequencies in general and I'm gonna be making general Statements here condensers pick up more frequencies than dynamic microphones do In some situations the frequencies that a condenser microphone picks up are the frequencies that have more noise in them like Fan noise air conditioner noise those really high frequency noises. So condenser microphones pick that up But that also means condenser microphones pick up those higher frequencies from your voice So your voice could sound a lot more clear coming through a condenser microphone than a dynamic Yeah, I don't think and I don't debate that I think that Anyone knows that if you go into a will you go in a professional studio You're gonna get on a condenser because it's going to be better for your boy It picks up it's just it's better it picks up more of your voice It sounds better, but dynamics have a very working a real-world working Purpose and oh man, it's so different these this you can't give that this advice is almost impossible to give because it is specific to It's not specific. It's different for everybody right and the thing to think about is yes Generally podcasters are working in environments where they do have that high frequency sound being created by their computers Their air conditioning systems their room noise anything like that So yes in general dynamic microphones are still better But it's even I hear it right now through the hangout I hear your computer fan noise Ray and you're talking into the high LPR 40 and it's pointed away from the computer fan noise So it's still picking up some of that noise the other myth that kind of goes along with this condenser versus dynamic thing is background as far as distance like if there's a dog barking in the background or Cricket farting outside or something like that that the condenser microphone picks it up But the dynamic microphone wouldn't that's completely false. There is no distance Difference difference between the two microphones sound works exactly the same for both of them They yes, they pick it up a little bit differently different methods of picking up the sound but If if the sound makes it to that spot where the microphone is a condenser microphone will pick it up just as much as a Dynamic microphone does it doesn't filter out based on distance and that's one of the things that I'm most interested in here And yes, this microphone is literally sitting over the top of laptop that refuses to let its fans go This is why I do not record outside of live streaming with computers on it doesn't happen And I always use well outside my 80 20 20 rip buddy that I always used a dynamic microphone But you can't be right next to a sound source like I am for live streaming It will pick it up. So, you know people think I'll get a get a noise gate and it'll go no It'll go away when I don't talk, but if it's there when you're talking it's there Okay, so the thing that I'm most interested in is that rejection, right? So does a dynamic mic reject more I think I Think it comes down to polar pattern mostly Mostly, I mean you do have large diaphragm or small diaphragm. You do have Magnets versus Coyote like there are some things in there that I think can make a microphone more sensitive people will Engineers will say a condenser is more sensitive Determining what that sensitivity is is difficult so far there has to do with how a dynamic microphone can handle a Podcasting situation where you want to be closer to the microphone typically it's easier on a dynamic microphone and Sensitive doesn't mean it will pick up background more It just means what it picks up everything that picks up it picks up louder It's like I'm on the electro voice re320 which is more sensitive than the high OPR 40 It doesn't mean it picks up the background anymore It just everything it picks up is a few decibels louder than if I had my mixer on the exact same settings for the high OPR 40 So if I account for that, I can turn down my gain I can stay the same distance away from the microphone. I get the same volume Sounds I get the same amount of background noise. It's just I have to compensate in different ways with either the preamp or my post processing And then again, once again, I mentioned polar pattern, which is important, right? You've got cardioid versus hyper cardioid You'll have a condenser shotgun which tends to be a hyper cardioid or super cardioid Which is gonna have a much narrow polar pattern versus, you know You know, like the ATR has got a great rejection if Dave took that microphone and took it talked into the side or the back of it It wouldn't sound anything like talking into the front of it I mean, it's a whole lot difference It's not like you changed his proximity to the microphone He just moved to the side where the pickup pattern is not right If I did that with a 2020 it'd be a different story. Yeah, many condenser microphones do also have cardioid or heartbeat heart hyper cardioid patterns as well, but in general the condenser microphones tend to have a wider Polar pattern and so that's where yes, they Can pick up more but it's not a universal thing that you can say a condenser microphone picks up more background noise than anything else It really is about that polar pattern. That said, what are you guys going to recommend today in 2017? to new podcaster Are you gonna tell them? Yeah a dynamic dynamic or condenser um, let's just put that out there I recommend the 2100. I mean because the dynamic people now if if audio technica made and A condenser version of the 2100 That had the same kind of polar pattern the same features where it's usb and xlr and it was the same price had the same warranty Then we would have a really interesting discussion and there would be all kinds of microphone Comparisons between the two of them would love to hear that. I mean i'm we scared paul out of the room a long time ago with our microphone talk Thanks for doing this paul It's like i'm out Well, you can because you can make a dynamic microphone sound horrible I actually now have a new chair and I used to love my old one because if I was too close to my knobs over here It would turn in the first knob. It would hit would be the gain on my preamp And so I would all of a sudden have this huge amount of Then I could be a mile away from the mic and I still had a decent level because it was really just Killing the gain on that thing and so I always sounded boomy and then I look over and I'm like oh Hold on a second. I'd have to turn it down and get closer to the mic things like that So you can make any microphone sound horrible. I think if you work at it really hard There's some good advice for you right now Anything can sound crappy Stargate Pioneer says was firewire a big recommendation for multi-track mixers 10 years ago versus usb today I would say it's less about a recommendation and more about availability Uh firewire mixers that was the way I get you know what that's not true because I had the infamous I just did a video about this I had the us the multi mix elisa's multi mix and that was Firewire then elisa switched it themselves to usb 2.0 So really at the time that I've ever given recommendations It's there's always kind of just been one tech available. You can still get Well, there's a couple of thunderbolt mixers that are really high in you can it's generally usb 2.0 Thunderbolt is going away because thunderbolt is going away. I the mixer manufacturers can't really keep they've never kept up with the tech so like um You know, there's still the mackey onyx series, which is thunderbolt, which I would not recommend Even though it's a really cool mixer. It's got an attenuation issue blah blah blah The one I just did a video about on my youtube channel is a usb 2.0. So You know when it comes to multi channel mixers, it's kind of What's available? I mean most things available were firewire now they're usb 2.0 So yeah, because back in the day Firewire was the only way you could transfer that much data for multi channel when we had only usb 1.1 Yep, yep Good What about a mixer? That's one of the other things that Is it really a necessary recommendation anymore? I I hesitate to get people in the mixers to be honest with you. I don't use a mixer my personal workflow involves Preamp to recorder. I told you I don't even like having I don't turn the computers on when I record now Obviously this show does get recorded with a computer. We got a live stream um, but No, I don't You know, I always ask people Make sure you ask me before you buy gear because you can't take a blanket recommendation apply it to your podcast Everyone's different. So a lot of times people will they'll find a package and they'll buy it and it's I got a mixer That's way too big Turns out maybe they didn't even need a mixer And they spent too much money and the complexity level goes way up, right? So for me personally it is definitely individually based and I I don't steer people towards a mixer until they absolutely need it and then there's a question. When do you need a mixer? but So somebody's doing Interviews over skype. You just say get a whatever scarlet or whatever and don't worry about mix minus and Maybe how do you do a mix minus with a scarlet? Don't you have to have the 2i4? Well, if you're recording in the Computer, right you can first of all skype recording software, right? Yeah skype recording software Yeah, something audio hijack or something That is recording both sides for you and the the scarlet interface is when you connect it via usb It can play the computer audio to you But it's just designed that it doesn't loop it back So if you wanted to use an external recorder, I guess you could tap into the line out I suppose and that's the that's the beauty you you go an interface You record on skype software and you do a backup with an audio recorder coming out of the outputs of The of the whatever interface you use most are going to work that way, but You know, you can even use audio recorders interfaces and okay, so the beautiful the amazing I hope I get my hands on these i'm saying all these things for even though the mix pre-series sound devices Is this crazy professional brand that all the movies use they've come down to our level sort of $600 range with recorders now the key here is that you can use them as an interface and record on them at the same time This is going to change things. So That's probably a device. I might start getting people into And that's something yeah that device as well as the podfather the actual podfather adam curry is coming out with his device very soon Uh small batch dot audio if you want to check that out. Um these both basically like the um the adam curry device Is the same as the mix pre but without a built-in recorder So that curry's device will be for if you want to record into your computer and it will be cheaper I think starting price. Well, if you get in super early, I think starting price will be 500 But the the mix pre more expensive However, I would think the mix pre is probably going to be the superior device because it's made by People who've been making yeah high-end audio equipment and this year 2017 guys i'm going to be spending too much money because I don't know call me stupid if you want i'm going to buy both of these things when they come out I mean one I want to buy something adam curry parts out That's I mean just to show them support show them thanks So do I but the price is too much for it. He has a non starter issue that he's already recognized Is on purpose With no ability unless you can do a panning option. You cannot separate the tracks. He thinks that this is a asset because the whole purpose of this thing is to just put it on and record but Yeah, I can't spin five to save at $700 and not be able to separate my audio I mean this it has to happen. I have to at least be able to pan do the pan left right That may happen. Otherwise. Yeah, I I would love to support it, but I thought you could I thought somewhere He said it would no it doesn't separate you can't separate separate channels It's all meant to do it's all meant to Start recording and be done. I mean that is the whole thing about this. It's got the noise gate It's got the compression you're going to have a radio voice adam is a radio guy. That's what he wants it to sound like so I'm excited about the device. I've seen it. It's amazing I just hope that maybe there's a way to do it or there's an update and like daniel you're saying I I just want to I want to support what he's doing. I want to see him succeed He is the pod father right he brought us this medium. So I don't get me wrong. I think it's An excellent device. I think that this is uh constructive feedback on my part But with the mix pre three mix and mix pre six that Could eventually be what I suggest for high-end people instead of a mixer high-end of podcasters Because it's small. It has a recorder built. I mean, yes, it's a high price But it's replacing potentially all of these other things that you might need to buy however recorder a mixer An interface and possibly even hardware compressor limiter gate and it records in multitrack yours Okay, I mean you could go pre amp into it. How are you getting the gate? They don't have that in there Yeah, it's got a software hardware compressor limiter gate built into the mix pre Really and you can adjust it per channel. I didn't hear that this gets better every time I hear about the mix pre Man, I love that thing. I'm gonna sell all my recorders to get this thing by the way. Um Wow, so the one question that remains on this is Mix minus now, uh, we had awesome. We had last week or two weeks ago on here from pod to pod um Gosh, sorry. I'm blanking on your name Matthew Matthew. I'm terrible at names. So just know that it's nothing personal Matthew, he did a great interview with these guys the mix pre sound devices and one of the engineers there and he did throw out the question about mix minus And he said the guy said yes, but it didn't get clarified So I don't think he understood he understood it in that you can record Skype Both ways but mix minus in can I send the person other audio? Minus their own I think you might believe that remains a question from my understanding is yes because of the Interface you'll be able to virtually mix what goes to a particular usb channel I mean if it does that it game over Like yeah, I mean game over they just they're killing. I'm so excited about this device. Um, We should probably not continue going on this for this whole but this is the stuff that makes us excited. It's fun So hey, if you guys are yeah, anyways, hopefully I'll do a review. We'll probably all be doing some type of review but I'm excited about that one. Uh, you said Dave in the chat stargate sp had something he was interested in He was asking 10 years ago to host your own files or go with the media hosting service I don't know that I've ever recommended using your own Web host as a media host And that's thanks to hall of fame podcaster dan class Who in 2004 was doing a thing was self-hosted? Got noticed by By the uh, new york times And had a quite the large bandwidth bill Um, now I realized not everybody's going to get new york times, but I just know too many people have been asked to to move I think well If someone is trying to do this for virtually free and they're between use their own web host Or paint with peanut butter as you predict Dave, right Like using archive.org or something else. What are you going to suggest if they absolutely cannot pay for a media host? Yeah, okay. In that case, I would go that route I have a good time buying it to be honest with you. I get it budgets are what but you can get a what Dave, what's the lowest level you'd lips at five dollars? No, that just keeps it alive No, five dollars will get you an rss feed and 50 mags. Um, I mean you can compress the snot out of that 100 minutes 100 minutes 64 mono. Um, I think pod bean has one for three bucks You know, I mean now we're not even talking about budgets. I mean, yeah, we're talking about a mountain dew and a half a star recycling your cans You know, one of the potential problems is not necessarily The amount of money but the ability to pay like I'm thinking of kids who don't have credit cards. They parents Yeah, they have parents, but So, yeah, it's like I get your point. I get your point though. Would you I mean? Yeah, sure, whatever I mean a lot of people they host on their site and they get away with it for a long time And if you get shut down or your stuff you get noticed in a break I mean, that's that's what you're gonna have to deal with that's the consequence. I think know the consequences Right. I think that's the key and if you want to go that route You want to roll the dice and would say a lot of people are yelling at us right now saying it's you're not rolling the dice I've been doing it forever. It's not gonna matter. Fine. I mean these things are best practices Less than they are advice in my opinion. That's that's how I look at it I'm gonna tell you from my experience To make your life easier. This is what I would do to be To have a better experience for you and the in listener These are these these are things I would do but since you mentioned hosting how about web hosting companies Do you feel comfortable throwing some companies under the bus? Yes? Who do we no longer recommend? I I tried bluehost and um, I had two or three shows on there And all of a sudden asked the podcast coach just went It was like and I went to them and said hey, what's going on guys? Because my website's taken forever to load. I can barely log in and their answer was It's working fine for us And I'm like, okay, but I have you know, it literally they they gave me zero support So I've moved everything off of a bluehost I I almost recommend host gator. They just it used to be you could get supported host gator Five to ten minutes and now it's more like 20 to 30 minutes on their live support I don't know And you got anybody to throw under the bus Yeah, well host gator two not necessarily because of experience and I've met some of the host gator team And they have some cool stuff going that's nice, but at this point I I just don't feel good recommending any EIG owned company EIG is this mega conglomerate I think based in china and they own most of the popular web hosting companies you're familiar with Web blue host host gator Site five now is owned by them a lot of these companies and that's Those are the companies that also pay really big affiliate commissions like a hundred and sixty five or 200 dollars For standard, you know five dollar a month thing and so they're getting major promotion. They're almost over growing and Cramming so many websites on their servers And just the the major conglomerate nature of it. I'm not really that comfortable recommending anyone in that So I've I found other companies to recommend like I I'm liking site ground. I know Dave your co-host jim colison is liking Really maple grove partners maple grove partners Um And someday eig may try and buy one of these other places and then I'll stop recommending them as well Daniel, do you watch mr. Robot? I think you'd love it. No because it's a fantastic show Built on your whole premise of web hosting and major conglomerates, but um I love mr. Robot. All right. So for me, I've changed I mean, I was on one forever. I will say I am now on site ground and Insanely love it. So thanks Daniel for that recommendation I even kind of I questioned Daniel even knowing the recommendation coming from Daniel was good enough But I still want to know more and I will say it's been an amazing Amazing move, but um, yeah, I mean, it's so tricky web hosts are like, um, cell phone carriers They're like banks like I use bank of america and the next person next to you hates bank of america had the absolute worst experience I use Verizon no way to never AT&T all the way. So that's a tough one. Um I think again, we're in a situation where be informed, right? Don't just maybe go right after it because it's the cheapest Ask ask around ask one of us Yeah, I don't I don't know that I would recommend that anymore the The $5 self hosting Or not with the shared hosting I think I would recommend people go with a wordpress hosted now whether it's and all those companies We just mentioned have some sort of wordpress configured. I'm not a hundred percent sure Um, exactly what that means. I just know it's made more to Because wordpress is so hackable and I think it's just designed to make it run faster So to me anything that is designed to do something better Um, and I've just I've had like I say that when blue host gave me the just it just died I was on a shared hosting plan So so what I was so bringing that up I will One of the reasons I was looking or so happy today about site ground again being happy all the time with him The support's amazing. First of all, they always say you're like 13th in the queue and then they they're like you're right there they're 24 hours a day so Because of that Dave, I mean site ground does specialize in wordpress. So they understand the needs I always felt with my other hosts. I won't throw them in the bus because they were good for a long time It just got bad the relationship got ugly at the end and we just we split I want my records back man. I want my ride. I do all right, but I always had this theory that Because wordpress is always being attacked, right? And that was my theory I mean if you put a plug in you can see how many times you're being attacked The brute force attacks constantly and I was I was getting Told you need to upgrade to this more expensive account Because you're using too much and I kept for a year We went back and forth and I said is this real traffic or is it spam because I'm seeing a lot of attacks And I think that has a Pool on the server whatever and they just couldn't answer my questions And they just denied stuff and I just never felt right. So site ground today publishes a blog post about Their new ability to thwart these attacks before they hit your login page on wordpress And this happens to me often brute force attacks So it is common that three to five times a day your wordpress site will be attacked By someone trying to basically log in brute force into your into your hack your login Um, and this takes a toll on your server. It can create Perception that you're caught that you need more space because or you need more bandwidth cpu because your server is going up But it's spam. So anyways, they wrote that after a year of frustration. I was like, yes site ground Thank you so much. It's still in my tab. I want to tweet it out and I'll say this is what's going on. It's true. Oh my gosh, so They get it So going with a host who deals with the stuff that you deal with on a daily basis I think I mean, there's obviously a lot of value in that. So um, this isn't just a Commercial for site ground. I'm enjoying that you should see what your needs are and then Pick your host, but don't just pick, you know, I think I may still have an affiliate thing for bluehost I mean on my website. I'm gonna go take that down like I'm actually I was approached by them today They said, hey, we see first. They said would you like to be an affiliate? I said I already am and they said, oh great. What's your affiliate name? And I said don't even bother. I said I've had a really bad experience with you guys And I don't think I'll be recommending you anymore because I'm sure they're gonna say I'm sure they're gonna say well, we'll up your affiliate to you know It's like it's not really it's not the point, you know, I stock photo This is another change recommendation. I stock photo contacted me also recently and I'm one of their affiliates and they said Hey, we want to help you increase your affiliates. How about we do some kind of special promotion thing with you? And I responded say hey your prices have I don't even know the word for how much your prices have increased It's more than 12 times what it was years ago And credits used to expire now. I'll give site ground this or not site ground. I stock photo this Their credits if you buy credits on I stock photo they no longer expire. That's nice But credits are so much more expensive or it takes so many more credits to buy a photo now So that's one of those things that I can't recommend them Uh, it's other photo places that I used to recommend are gone like um dollar photo club is now adobe stock And that costs too much per month Um at some point these other places Are going to also be taken over and and certain recommendations have to keep changing So congrats to us and bad we we no problem filling an hour I did not get halfway through the list not surprised I mean that's good. I can always bring this topic back up. We'll try to play through a couple of these. Um, I don't skeptic smash Podcast in the chat. I don't think we're even gonna approach this. He says why does everyone hate soundcloud so much? I don't think we're gonna approach it here because I don't think any of us really ever recommended soundcloud Because good reasons Because yeah, it's just and mark. He's said a little bit of stuff in the in the chat out there a financial house of cards and it just Just don't like we you can email us and we could probably give you reasons But it's not really a recommendation. I don't think we ever that hasn't changed I don't I don't think that's really changing in the beginning. We didn't recommend here I am going down the hole. We didn't recommend soundcloud because It wasn't a podcast platform It really was a pain I mean There were a couple of instances where I may have had put someone on it because they wanted to produce Such an a mask. They're like, I'm doing a six hour show a day And I'm not changing it. I'm like, you know what just go to soundcloud because it's the only place You're gonna be able to pay this crazy price you want to produce Podcasts that fortunately unfortunately not many people listening to so yeah, but in general. No, I just there's too many They're not a podcasting company and they've shown it. They've shown it So not to mention They always are teetering on the brink of going Out of business or being sold. They should they need to be sold and bought by just buy them google and figure it all out You brought something up that uh is almost an ethical question Is when we are working with podcasters and we know their podcast isn't good They're never going to have and it's horrible. I feel horrible saying these things But the truth is there are certain podcasts that are horrible Or that because of the niche or because of the style for whatever reason they will never grow beyond a certain limit so Uh, do you feel like we should allow a lot more fault in recommendations For those kinds of shows like what you're saying like, okay. Yeah, just go to soundcloud. You're fine So in that case when I was saying they literally had no option I mean, they would probably break their website It was there it was it came down to being so specific that that was their option And that I told them about what the problem like they were they were they were informed and they probably did fine um For me like it is not this is kind of the premise of my next episode of podcasters roundtable. I mean podcasters studio is that Look, I'm gonna tell you how to produce podcast. It's not for me to decide if it's good or bad In fact, you know what? I don't care. I don't give a I don't give two cents And this is the premise for getting you started right now. You want to get started. I don't care It's for you and your listeners to decide if it's good or not. So I'm still want to set you up For success for the future for the unknown for the life You know that's putting you on good hosting with good stats, you know, so you can do things Easier and more reliably You know, I mean, I'm not going to put you on the 20 dollar plan when you only producing You know 25 megs of content. I'm not you know, I mean that you know So for me it is an interesting question. I mean And it is hard time at times to say, you know, you know what? That's not going to do very well and I stopped me. I have to stop myself Give recommendations as how they can make that better But making that judgment is it's tough not to sometimes Yeah, I've had a customer get pretty mad at me. She was doing I don't know how to explain an extreme Anti-abortion show it was all just I mean extreme like massive Billions of people are dying just you know, we know the the debate there. Is this a client or or It was a it was a coaching client. I had because I will dismiss myself from I will say we're just not the right fit And I I said why I can help you and then she said great and then I want to get sponsors And I said I'm going to be straight up honest with you right now. I said You there are going to be certain sponsors that I said you have a topic that will divide people Instantly on it. I said the minute you say the word about abortion lines form I go and I said I'm not here to judge or not. I said, but I'm just going to let you know There are going to be some sponsors that will not touch that at all And I just said so and she got really mad She's and they may not even care about your approach your style or anything. They just know you're in that category We don't want to be associated with any any side on that. Yeah, they just run away And I said so I'm just being honest with you if that's your goal. I said I said I would recommend A patreon or something like that. I said because people that are are in your camp are going to be very passionate to make sure You keep your podcast going she didn't want she wanted sponsors I'm like, okay. Well, I've just mine my official thing is you're gonna have a hard time I said now feel free to prove me wrong feel free to prove me wrong, but The crazier are the more likely someone's gonna find you and yeah, there's another thing Sponsors is that something we still recommend you try and get sponsors? I'm trying to think if it's something I ever really recommended. It's never my first I you know, here's the thing where it's like now I feel like a political candidate where I'm like, well, you can fact check me because It's impossible that I I've certainly talked about sponsors. I don't recommend sponsorship For me, it's kind of the last way I would monetize Personally, it's not the way I would want to monetize my podcast because it's the most difficult route and oftentimes not the most lucrative for most podcasters so No, I mean, I've certainly talked about sponsorship and ways to approach that It's not my recommendation. I think the thing that's changed for me is is just the glen the geek effect Is, you know, 10 years ago We didn't know if we're going to get any sponsors and then there, you know, there was a whole Ramping up just the industry to to explain what the heck a podcast was And then everybody thought you had to have the cpm thing and so now that I've seen glenn I don't know that anybody's gonna, you know quit their day job With sponsorships, uh, but you can definitely pay for your podcast and have a little gas money and Maybe even a little vacation money if you hit it, right? It's possible where before I was like I don't know now I can say now there are some people if you get if you're doing it, right? There's a shot Well, you know where I find myself with this is no longer saying Well, I'm not again, you can fact or like ray said you can also fact check me I know I've talked about getting sponsors what it takes what sponsors are looking for that kind of thing But now I feel so much more like even for my own shows Once upon a time breaking news here once upon a time was just renewed for a seventh season Nice, and um, that's a podcast or once upon a time podcast Is one that I've Had sponsors before and I've tried to get sponsors before and jessica cuperman works for my network And she can help me try and get a sponsor, but that's one that I kind of feel like You know, I think I just rather Have it crowdfunded by our audience. It's a whole lot more fun Our audience gets value from that even just in our episode we recorded last night We did this little parody that combined A song from frozen from another pop culture with another pop culture song And we had some parody lyrics and put this thing together I threw it up as a standalone download only for patreon members and I mentioned it in the podcast I love doing that kind of thing. It's value for value And giving me an opportunity to deliver more value to those who are giving us more value too I think that is a model that Can work so much better for any podcaster Are you going to get a sponsor that pays you two dollars per month? No, probably not and it's not worth it to you. It's not worth it to the sponsor But you might have one listener willing to pay you two dollars a month Well, that could be kind of cool and you might not mind having only one person paying you Only two dollars a month because you know, they're loyal And plus you get the access then you can you can treat patreon like your own little personal membership site And be having polls and all sorts of stuff that'll then give you more information to make your show better. So Yeah, patreon is still fan supported fan sponsorship Whatever you want to call it. I mean if you want to consider a sponsor, but you really do remove that I mean look you have When you have a sponsor who's this third party you have two audiences You've got your sponsor and your audience when it's patreon. You have only your audience and you remove that third party It's just nicer. I mean if you have the opportunity to take sponsorship that is That really can It does what you want it to do There's nothing wrong with it and sponsorships completely fine and It's good. It's pick what's best for your show. I think I think that's the the I think that's the thread through this round One and the the thing that hasn't changed is step one get an audience Step two if you want to monetize I still think people want to go to step two first and I get my sponsor before I start my show, Dave I've heard it. That's you can do that so this show Fully sponsored before I ever started kael nelson Had a sponsor before you had a podcast. It happens. It happens, but you know, these are these uh These are these extreme examples that exactly here want to follow but yeah just listen to Dave now. Here we go I've got two four five different things on the list We are I will never say I'm out of time that has never changed I hate that but I did ask you guys to come by for an hour and if you're still waiting Live is a little different a little different the best practice. So I do like to wrap it up a little bit here, but I'm going to go through this list You get to pick we each get to pick one that we want to approach and we'll try not to be here for another hour, but um Pick your favorite Daniel. Here we go. Here's what's left on the list. It feels like a game show spin it Dave Monover stereo bit rate pot a posting schedule length of episode Dare dare we new and noteworthy? So monover stereo bit rate posting schedule length of episode new and noteworthy You know, I don't know that my advice has changed On any of those. Yeah I think I'm tempting coding. I know in the very very beginning. I did say yeah, use lane But even today really there's not that much difference between lame and fronhofer and even uh fronhofer license By the way recently expired. So it seems if some of us interpret it correctly It seems that fronhofer encoder could start appearing in free software Um, but that's that's an odd thing. So I I don't think my advice has changed I won't I'm damned new and over device hasn't changed I never really pushed for it Yeah, I celebrated it when I get in there and and certainly that it's worth celebrating if your show gets in there It's I don't think it's something to push for I think maybe what we know about it has changed a little bit, right? Yeah. Oh, yeah So let's go that let's take that approach. Apparently I do want to talk about it But I am curious because you know people want to know I think it is helpful. Um What do we know now versus what we thought we We thought it was just helpful to a show Maybe I'm even more curious about ratings and reviews. Daniel. I'll let you just take it away Ratings and reviews. Well, here's the thing apple one said get rate and review my show. It's going to help the podcast. Yeah, it Uh, it doesn't help your ranking. It doesn't help your search engine position it may help you appear in new and noteworthy, but Look at podcasts that are in new and noteworthy and you'll see that many of them have no ratings and reviews so the really the The most important thing is make an amazing podcast have great looking cover art have a great description great title great episode titles And don't worry about Trying to get ratings and reviews to make your podcasts succeed Ratings and reviews are still cool and they're there a lot of fun good things you can do with them But I also hear the biggest podcast the gimlets and stuff They'll still say go and give us ratings reviews. It helps the show There is when it comes to itunes and I would say when it comes to that level of podcast There is the human element too, right because at apple podcast there are people so it may be beyond the Use the marketing term social proof. It may send a signal Even inside of itunes if something this might be something worth featuring, right? Yeah, and there's certainly that because apple ultimately has editorial control on all of those sections Some sections it seems to be are completely handpicked by apple But if if a rating and review lots of ratings and reviews can get the attention of apple That's cool. But if you have a bad product to start with Apple's not going to think of featuring it regardless of how many ratings and reviews you have Well, I think a lot of people think it's algorithm based in that case, right? Like if you if I can game it to get all these ratings and reviews in a certain amount of time I'm just going to pop up because the software is going to push me there Not true is this there's certain sections that run on algorithm But reason we don't think that ratings and reviews affect that. Is that right? Right well Right, it's tough because apple ultimately has editorial control So it's ratings and reviews can be a way to get your podcast attention Not necessarily get it featured Yeah, I always look at it as social proof. Yeah, so somebody type in your subject And you're sitting next to somebody and they have four reviews and you have 37 Maybe that person might click on yours instead But see you don't see the number of ratings and reviews until you've actually clicked To the podcast and very few people are going to go back and forth and say, okay This one has 500 reviews. This one has three. I think I'll go with the one with 500 They're not going to see that. Yes, they may at some point when they've already decided to click on the podcast They may see. Oh, this has 500 reviews. Wow. This must be a pretty good podcast But it's not like amazon where you can see This one's five stars. Whereas this one's one star. You can't cross compare. So What about advice What's the advice for the call to act? Do we make this call that do we tell people to make this call to action? To get to to ask your audience for ratings and reviews There's a place for it, but I think that For a call to action. It's so much better to ask your audience to share your podcast. Yeah And it's I mean that whole ratings and reviews things. There's um Like the the movie, uh, I think it's Casablanca where he says play it again sam Well, guess what? He never said that everybody thinks he said that but he never said that in the movie I was actually just googling this and what he said Is he said play it once sam for the old times sake play as time goes by But for whatever reason some comedian or somebody who was You know doing a Humphrey Bogart imitation said that line everybody thinks it's in the movie. It's not And so likewise We've just heard, you know, it it helps the podcast if you write a review that we just all believe it now It's like well now technically not and it doesn't matter how many of us are going actually it doesn't It's folklore at this point And really what do we are we wait? We're kind of wasting our Our capital like on like asking your audience to do something on doing something on a platform that is not yours Or it's like a just a different platform. It's on itunes and yeah, I know that apple podcast dominates but You know, you're asking a lot over a long period of time that in theory could go away or you could go away from it I mean a lot of things could happen. I I think I'd rather want I mean this this goes the question of how many calls to action we put in our podcast We talked about that recently so it won't go over it, but You know, there's something there too You know while we're talking about ranking I that thing I said I was going to check earlier I found a podcast top podcast this American life It has three categories in its rss feed society and culture arts And news and politics are the three categories in its feed It does rank as number one for I'm sorry number two in society and culture if you switch over to um Arts the second category it has it is not in the top 10 List if I click on top podcasts in the arts category This American life is not even in there That I can see and I'm down to number 100 and it's a top podcast if I click over to news and politics Um, I think we'll see I'll see the same thing Yeah, it is not in The top podcast in news and politics If I click through and see the top 100 I don't see it at all What's the takeaway the takeaway is For ranking Only the first category matters your additional categories. You don't even show up in ranking for additional categories that has to do with Just their popularity in that category or it's not being counted In that category. That's a tough question, right? I think it's not being counted because a podcast like this American life hugely popular um but it's um So why put yourself in those other categories because you can be found there In search I get a question why well no one really Searches that way I mean, I think it's one of those. It's like right. No one does. I don't know that it would hurt So it's like it doesn't hurt Yeah, it hurts it could you could get hurt by putting yourself in the wrong primary category It's right. I mean or no or maybe let's say of this American life Put themselves as their their first category was art. They would still probably right They would dominate that category if it was their first category And uh rob walch has said that the category rankings not new and nor worthy because that's not a ranking system But the top podcast section and categories are based on new subscriptions Not lifetime subscriptions, but new subscriptions within the last couple days And so this American life is getting more new subscriptions than All but one of the other podcasts out there s town is the top podcast in the society and culture. This american life is number two um But then s town is only in one category, so I couldn't compare that Yeah, that's tough. Well Pay attention to your primary category. Yeah, and maybe potentially ignore all the others Awesome. Well, Dave that leaves you. I forced Daniel into in and in Come on. We uh, that's a good conversation. What am I left with get all the rest of you? Uh, and I We Daniel you sort of what else do we force you into there? Uh, I made you talk about you talked about Um, Dave, what do you think about length of episodes or posting? You get like those are your those are your two really? I haven't really changed on that I've always said it needs to be as long as it needs to be and not a minute more um been pretty Vocal lately about the whole You know, if we make it shorter, they will come kind of thing. It's like no So I've never really changed on that but Dave, what's the best day to post my show? See that one I get I I've heard rob from libson say that if you're doing something that's entertainment based It might make sense to release that on friday if you're doing something that's business related It might be good to release it on monday. I again to that say Just pick a day and stick with it, you know, whatever your schedule is Because then you go from Being a trusted friend to now you're part of their routine. I mean glenn the geek is showering with me on monday Take that sound by doubt. That sounds good. I'm gonna use that to Yeah, um, but that's what he told me. He goes you're he goes. I start off my monday I used to be with him on the way to the feed store. So apparently he's listening to me earlier now Um, but I've had people that say, you know, you're with me every monday in the car So that's kind of cool So I think is whatever your schedule is try to just stick to it if you can I have a theory about posting the schedule that's mostly based on this show Well, it's related to posting schedule. It's the How often question once a week once every two weeks daily Right. I don't know what advice has changed on on those things But once a week seems to have always kind of been that sweet spot for podcasts and podcast advice I still once a week is great, but this shows once every two weeks And I produce some shows at work one of them is every two weeks and it's very popular And it seems to um, it has a show that is very much like it that posts every week And the numbers are are kind of the same. So my theory on Based on this show doing every two weeks I listen to a lot of podcasts in my podcatcher and a lot of times Things that get me if I get behind Right, like so if every show posts every week My podcatcher is always really full Sometimes I think a a bi-weekly or is that bi-monthly it gets really gets really weird Once every two weeks a four night a four night um Gives the person a chance to hear Every episode. I mean it it all depends on your listening habits, but I don't see I don't think we would be any bigger if we were once a week to be honest with you I think more of every episode gets listened to because we're Where once every two weeks it gives people a chance like man, I can't keep up, right? So the shows they've got the audacity podcast every week. They got the school podcasting every week You get a little break from your podcast of podcasting about podcasting with the round table So it's a complete theory. There is the theory that being once a week gets you more people because you're more regular for me I think maybe once every two weeks can get you equally The same because for more listens per each episode because people don't skip stuff because they get behind so complete theory But what do you guys think about once a week daily? once a month For me, I think it depends on what is the goal of the podcast. I was working with a client yesterday And she says well, you know, I'm gonna have kind of a call to action She goes but really I just want to keep my name in front of my customer And she goes i'm thinking she goes i'm thinking about doing a five minute podcast She goes can you even do that like she thought they had to be you know, 45 And I said absolutely you could do a five minute podcast and she said well Can I do more than one a week? I go if your goal is to keep your name in front of people You might want to do two a week or three a week Monday Wednesday Friday depending on what you want to do And I told her Go out record a couple episodes and see how long it takes and then pick your schedule Because you can say i'm going to do three a week and then you know, you have a kid or you know, whatever You move something happens in your life. You got to take care of the your parents something that might change So I think a lot of it depends on on who your audience is And then listen for things Like hey, I love your show even if I have to fast forward through part of it That's a clue that maybe it's a little too long. Um, you know things like that But uh, dany, what are your thoughts on? picking a schedule Same day as last week and uh weekly is kind of the universal I think easiest for everybody easiest for your audience easiest for you to know Okay, this day is when I publish this day is when I record and such and It's consistent But whatever the schedule is the most important thing is to be consistent with it So I think the most the easiest for an audience to understand and follow Is weekly or even daily But with the time shifted nature of podcasts There's not as much need for For an exactly consistent schedule. Yes, some people May subscribe to few enough podcasts Or they build their lives around a schedule or some ways like for me I always try to listen to my podcast about podcasting Monday morning before I get into the office and start preparing for the audacity to podcast I want to make sure I'm not repeating stuff other people are saying the same week or if it's big news I want to hear what everyone else thinks too. So I can reference them or do whatever Consistency most important thing whatever the day is whatever the schedule is What makes like Dave said what makes sense for your audience and just be consistent with it Podcasters used to always be obsessed with this consistency to the level of I can't miss an episode I'm producing this free content for no money, but I can't miss an episode. I've never been that camp because You know there's david life does for me. I mean It's all in how you approach it, but I'm not going to go crazy and spend I probably have done this I'm not going to spend the first minute apologizing for why I missed a week in the next episode like People get it, right? I mean, I don't what do you guys think about? Yeah having to miss now Guess what you get sick and so does your family or you get hurt everything happens life happens I listened to a podcast and they came on And basically said I'm not doing a show this week and I just wanted to give you something because I don't want you to go listen to something else and I at the end of that I'm like, I don't know if that's a good strategy or not because it was night the effort to try and say Hey, I'm not gonna be you're trying to do some of their audience But at the same time like is it necessary to apologize and to insert all this filler like, you know There's a good reason to have an email list Yeah, I mean Daniel did a great job when baby noodle came along Our noodle baby. Excuse me. I'm getting his name mixed up and uh, you know, that was awesome But this was just kind of like I ran out of time and I was like, hmm But I get it you you want people to know that you didn't die Now look at what Emily pro cop from the story behind podcast is doing and she's on maternity leave from her podcast Basically, and she's pre-recorded a whole bunch of episodes. They're not The same as her other episodes, but they're still good unique content and she's been able to schedule them to release while she's out on baby time and It's not her just week after week saying. Hey, sorry. I couldn't be here Here's something I just threw together just so I can be in your ears for another week No, it's still good content, but she does say hey if you're hearing this at the time of this release I'm currently taking baby leave. So this isn't the normal format But it's still good content. Yeah, so I think it's a great compromise on her And I would just say don't freak out if you had to miss an episode Seriously, unless you do have one of those sponsors where it's actually going to lose just then you have something to think about There's another negative of that's where it gets tricky. Yeah Yeah, and you know emily speaking of emily in the chat She's always with us. Thanks emily rock But she says her old show used to rank higher in her secondary category education than her first society and culture So man, who knows? So maybe I wonder if I wonder if there's like a hidden ranking that itunes the app Blocks out podcasts from appearing in a category, but I wonder if maybe Um emily found her ranking through one of those other third party services that checks the api And so it gave her data the itunes filters out I don't know but then again itunes may have changed things and they're going to change things Everyone should google changes things don't chase the dragon that one like don't always trying to be like how do I Work with the algorithm like what you've heard it make good stuff Well, that's changed they used to be able to put keywords Into your feed and that was used by itunes and that doesn't work anymore And there have been a couple of things that people have just abused and that's why now itunes is going along saying Please put please quit putting spam stuff In your author tag because we're running out of things to search Yeah, it used to be that your author tag was searchable, but it's not anymore See why I just did is I'm doing that so when people listen to this episode a couple years from now That this episode is so totally timely, but at this recording Yeah, the author tag is still searched He's also trying to get to not do it He's trying not to get you to ruin it for the rest of us right like a couple relative or relevant words about yourself, but you know Not that you interviewed so-and-so. All right. Well, I think we can head out of here We lost somebody in the chat because It's something like I think their show had started. So that is a clear signal. So this is what I mean, you know I've always given that advice that it drives me crazy when I hear a podcast that is Recorded and then released later and they're like, oh, we're running out of time Really you're running out of time The man the the the radio manager is going to come and tell you to get off the no You never run out of time, but I get it What you maybe are saying is something about your audience and expectations and what they've gotten used to but in a live stream We did we've asked people to show up live. They're chatting. So I will let Get everyone back to their regular life. Not that you couldn't leave at any time. It feels like a pod camp it should be the it's the rule of I don't forget what they used to call it but the whole idea of pod camp was You can check into a session and walk out and no one feels guilty about it I don't as a person who is walking out because that always feels weird And the presenter knows this exists like the rule of like What is it called? Do you guys remember the roll of two feet? See, I thought it was two feet. I couldn't get left out of my hand. You're right rule of two Two feet and the presenter knows this is what happens here People are transient in between sessions. So anyways, I don't know where we've gone. This is another sign We need to get out of here. Ray is battling All right, podcast was around table. Thanks everybody so much the chat rocked it tonight Everyone did hang along hang around for a lot. Uh school of ukulele. We'll have him on here soon. That's awesome. Very niche podcast He's got a lot to say Joe Taylor fibrific We've got a lot of people Coming and going but thanks everybody and um, Daniel, where can we find your show? I'm Daniel J. Lewis over at the audacity to podcast.com Very cool. Dave Jackson. Thanks again as always. Yes, it was fun Dave Jackson school of podcasting.com. You think school of ukulele Started listening to school of podcasting and then became school of ukulele. I don't know Now we have to learn how to spell ukulele. Uh, don't don't even I can tell you right now In the chat, but all right. Hopefully that's a good shout out So hopefully someone's going to check that out if you play ukulele I would imagine you want to go to see that podcast listen to that podcast Oh, is that one that needs to be video? I need to teach you probably good youtube channel as well. I don't know All right, everybody podcast around table 94 We're inching our way towards our towards a podcast diploma, which I say is at 100 I don't know what we're going to do you guys, but we'll figure it out We're going to wave goodbye and see you next time. That's what we're doing. See you