 Welcome to Dare to Dream. This is Debbie Daschinger. This show has been nominated for two People's Choice podcast awards for a Webby Award. We recently won the Coalition of Visionary Resources Award for Best Podcast and Radio Show and are currently listed in WOLP Magazine as one of the top 20 best podcasts to listen to. Thank you all for your support. Thank you for subscribing and liking. I read everything you write and I often get back to you. Today's show is going to feature somebody I am now officially a fan of, Ken W. Stone, known as the Soul Archaeologist. He's a spiritual teacher, a messenger and a healer. Ken is the founder of The Resonance Experiment and author of the book, Resonance, The Path of Spiritual Mystery. This show is sponsored by Dr. Dane Heer and Access Consciousness. They do energy work out into the world and you can join them in any country or online. Go to drdaneheer.com or accessconsciousness.com. And again, I'm Debbie Daschinger. Welcome to the show. I teach entrepreneurs, speakers, coaches, spiritual folks the time effective steps to write a highly engaging book. I also help coaches to put together an anthology book for their clients, their theme they choose and I do the entire process. It's very successful start to publish. I have a company that fully done for the author takes your book to a guaranteed international bestselling status. And finally, Ultimate Visibility Formula, I show you how to be interviewed on radio and podcast and get massive results. If you're interested in these things and you're ready to be visible out into the world and hey, you're a light worker, you came here to do this. So go to Debbie Daschinger.com slash gift and get your free templates and videos and learn how to start implementing this right now. It's D-E-B-B-I-D-A-C-H-I-N-G-E-R.com slash gift. Enjoy. Today we're speaking with a man who guides spiritual messengers such as yourself to experience the divine within. My guest indeed is Ken W. Stone, a world renowned energy healer, spiritual teacher, author and founder of the Resonance Experience experiment. It's also an experience by the way. God expresses through Ken in a very unique way. When people sit with him in transmission, they have a profoundly different experience of the divine in their body. Ken is a natural teacher with a unique approach through divine download and the exploration that continues. Ken has received two core structures which he continues to write about teach and practice known as spiritual mastery and spiritual messenger mastery. Together, these two structures support students in being embodied messengers, one who shares their divine gifts merely through their presence. Ken shares his gifts with a spiritually diverse growing international audience through a variety of online and in-person programs, retreats and one-on-one work. And I'm going to give you his website so you can learn more and also because he has a free amazing gift there for you. It's Ken W. Stone, S-T-O-N-E, kenwstone.com slash dare. When you use the slash dare, you will see that he has a 17-week resonance course. He is gifting to you. I'm already on class number eight doing one a day and loving it. So go there for your gift from Ken. And with that, I welcome Ken W. Stone to the Dare to Gene show. How are you? Wonderful to be with you, Debbie. I'm doing great. How are you doing? Excellent. Excellent. I've been looking forward to this because we had a session. And I still talk about resonance. It's actually still resonating for me. And there are pieces that you shared with me just in our after discussion that was so profound. I mean, first of all, I was so touched by your humility and transparency and then the wisdom that pours through you. I transcribed like the last 30 minutes of our conversation and it's sitting under a crystal right here. And I'll take it out and read portions of it because it's all about letting go and surrendering. And I think people need to hear this conversation. So thank you. Thank you. That's an honor. So I want to start with sort of the weird and the wonderful, which is that following high school university a little bit after university, you worked as a professional live sound engineer. So I know this favorite music language jazz jazz and you then moved into business management sales. It's funny. You go from the creative, you go to the money making, right? Originally originating mortgages and teaching workshops on financial strategies for creating wealth. Good for you. So my question is, do you think that these pieces of your background were actually integral to getting you here and to what you do today? I think they must have been. I mean, at the point at which I surrendered. And I'll remember the day I'm such a type A personality or perhaps a recovering type A Debbie I scheduled my surrender. I looked at my calendar on one week and I said next Thursday, on the 30th of June, it was 2011. I'm going to surrender. And on that day, I actually did it. I followed through, I blocked the time I did what I needed to do to open up to surrender to really let go of control and really turn every aspect of my life over to the divine. And when I did that, I had this sort of, I mean, there were lots of things that unfolded, but one of the things was I had this backwards look on my life. And until that moment, I had all sorts of regrets. I felt like I had failed at lots of different things. I had not met my potential on and on. I mean, I just, you know, I would think I would have a normal life. Maybe most people don't feel that way. I certainly did. And after surrendering, and really in the moments of surrender, I started having this backwards look, and I realized everything had perfectly lined up to take me to that moment. And I think for sure that has to include, you know, all these ways of being in the world, you know, showing up as a as a sound engineer and I think that probably was maybe my first spiritual gift. I didn't really understand it from a math standpoint or an engineering standpoint, like a scientific standpoint, I could just sort of lay my hands on the mixing board and, and, you know, become one with the music and, you know, beautiful stuff happened and didn't matter if it was an orchestra or rock band or a country band or a jazz group or whatever. It wasn't genre specific, in other words. And yeah, so I think that was a really important exploration for me and, you know, sales and so on, as well. Even in financial services, I mean, all of these things provided a different perspective on life in a way to explore different aspects of me. Yeah, I think often our beginnings are very interesting expressions out in the world. For instance, I worked at JPL NASA, right, the space program for a considerable amount of time. No, at all. But I'm super grateful because I learned so much about business, about computers, about technology, about, you know, even how to fold a letter, you know, there was so much in that education, if you will, that I absolutely utilize as an entrepreneur the past, you know, 10, 15 years. Yeah. So our roots are very interesting how they contribute to who we become. And you bring up this surrender, you put it on your calendar in June, and then you follow through. So what does surrender mean to you? How would you describe the act of surrender and how would you describe the experience of it? Those are interesting questions, you know, the, for me, surrender was both inevitable and something that I had resisted profoundly for years. I knew it was the next step in my developmental journey spiritually, but I wasn't excited about it. It was just, I mean, one way to say it is the only other option would have been to end my life. I was just at the end of my rope. I was really in, and I wasn't in a place where that was an active part of my thought process, although I think there have been times in my life where that has been. That wasn't particularly in the forefront. It was just, I was really, I guess the way I think of it now is I was in the glass ceiling of a stage of consciousness, wherein I thought I was in charge of my life. I thought everything was up to me, and I thought I could do it. And I had had lots of experience of being able to create success and so on and so forth. But the thing that I was surrendering was really not all of that stuff, but self love. I had really been able to distill it down to one thing that was kind of underlying everything else that was sort of driving me if that makes sense. And I couldn't, and I tried a lot of different things. I could not generate an experience of self love. I couldn't, I couldn't figure it out. And I had the sort of strange contrast was at the same time, I was sharing this incredible gift that the divine expresses through me. And so, you know, I would be in session with someone, you know, watching just this absolutely beautiful unfolding of their true nature and, you know, spontaneous healing and blah, blah, blah, all these incredible miraculous things would be happening and I was clear. This is not because of me, you know, it's, there's something moving through me and I don't even know what it is I don't understand it. This is beautiful. And then I'd be done with the session and I go back into this incredible contrast of how do I get to this, how do I break through. And so, it just became so abundantly clear to me that the answer was with the divine. And for all the aspects of my life and it was most of my life at that point that I thought I was in charge of those were the things I needed to let go of control over. I actually went through a process to prepare to surrender is probably two or three months of really intensive process. And what I was doing was trying to understand what I think of as the separate self my separate self, the part of me that's not integrated that thinks it's separate and so on. I was trying to figure out what is my separate self think is going to happen if it lets go of control. And, you know, there was a whole series of nightmares, it was happy to spell those out in glorious detail, you know, one of them was, you're going to die. So, so then I would and another one was you're going to be homeless and another one was you'll never see your kids again and you'll be an itinerant healer and blah, blah, blah, there's a whole bunch of stuff there. And so I went through and visualized what I was afraid of as reality, not a possible reality as actual reality. So for example, I was afraid that I would become homeless. So then I spent an enormous amount of energy and time visualizing myself as homeless. And once I became homeless in my mind, I tried to figure out what's the next thing I'm concerned about and I live in Colorado and I thought, well, I'm afraid I'm going to be cold. And so then I thought, well I have warm clothing so I'll make sure I take that with me when I go become homeless. And so I worked through it, you know, what's the next fear I'm not going to have enough food to eat. And I mean, there are lots of restaurants in Fort Collins where I live they throw food away. I'll be fine, you know, never gone dumpster diving for food before but in this visualization I thought if I'm hungry, you know, I'm not going to be above anything. So I went through that whole thing and what I discovered as I visualized was that the outcome that I had been resisting in each of these areas that my separate self was projecting to hold on to control was actually less stressful than the life I was living. There was actual relief for being homeless. There was relief for dying. There was relief for becoming an itinerant healer, whatever the heck that is, like I just all of each and every one of those I went through and I didn't it was not a five minute exercise this was a profound deep process. And when I have shared about this and taught this in the past. There's always a group of students who are really upset by my description of this because their adherence to the law of attraction and they're thinking well, you're sitting there creating these scenarios you're visualizing them why and it's a. I think the law of attraction is offers a much deeper exploration and consciousness, then, then what that stage of consciousness says where I was at the time in stage two. But beyond that, think about it if you're resisting something. It's, it's in the field, right so I was resisting being homeless and all these things so in essence, you know visualizing them as reality wasn't. Even beyond that I just, I just said to myself look that I'm not I'm not participating in that I'm working through a process to get ready for God to be in charge of my life. And I need to be open to absolutely wherever that goes I have no idea where that will go but I'm afraid of these things. So, I don't know if I'm going into too much detail here Debbie but that's the process. There's the beginning of it. It's as deep as you want. This is really what I'm hungry for. That is so powerful because as you're saying that I'm thinking about the things in my life that I'm resisting and it's like it's a power struggle, right? Oh yeah. Me and me. Right. And hearing you say that and thinking whoa to sit down and allow that to play out. I'm going to try it. I really am. It already feels like well how awful but also what a relief. You know. Yeah, I mean, that was my experience was how awful this but because I was committed to surrender and this was my barrier. These were my barriers. I couldn't figure out any other way to address them. This was the only way that I could figure out for me to end my resistance to turning over my life to the divine, not just in one area, but in every area. And so on the day I had actually asked a friend to witness me and I had made her promise to not interfere no matter what happened. And I said I'm worried that I'm going to die during this process so if I die, you cannot revive me. Like, you can't I literally you can't interfere energetically physically, emotionally, you just have to sit there and watch. And type a personality. Let me show you how this is going to work for me. I'm going to tell you how this is going to. Here's what you're going to do for me. But anyway, she was willing to do it. And so I went out to her place which is out in the country and thank God, because the first part of it. My recollection of it was that I was in excruciating physical pain and making a lot of noise. And I felt like I was being squeezed through like the eye of a needle. And as I was going through this sort of passage away. I had the sense like, if I hang on to any of my baggage if I hang on to anything that I think I need. I'm going to get stuck here and that's going to be the end. So I don't know how I mean that process felt like it was multiple hours. And then as I was coming out I was thinking oh that wasn't so bad and then part two happened. And part two is that just even more, you know excruciating and challenging. But but as I came out of it when I opened my eyes, I felt like I was having an experience of unconditional love for the first time in my life. And the source of the love was coming from within me but it was the origin of it was the divine. And it was all for me. And I had never experienced I don't even know how to describe it now. And I mean I was weeping and laughing at the same time. And as I opened my eyes I could see energy moving through everything. I mean through the sofa through the floor through the air. And I mean it was just like, oh my gosh what am I looking at this is incredible. And I looked at my friend and you know I could see light everywhere but there was like this dark thing around her ankle. I said is your ankle in pain and she said yeah and I said hang on a second I just looked at it and then the darkness disappeared it became light and the pain went away and she said wow that's better and I mean we eat these roast beef sandwiches and I could feel the experience of all the animals all the forms of consciousness that have been involved in gathering the food and preparing it. And they were blessing me and I was blessing all of them as I was eating, and it wasn't a conscious thing it wasn't like I was thinking it and then it was happening it was just unfolding. I looked outside and I could see the consciousness in the blade of grass in the tree and I started giggling again like that has the same consciousness I do it's all the same I mean oh my God this is unbelievable. So, I mean, I could go on about this but the thing about it is that in the run up to surrender. There's a lot of noise on my part about well, I'm not going to go through that exercise and this was not an exercise anyone imposed on me I didn't learn it from anyone I just figured it out on my own. But there was a part of me that kept thinking, I'm not going to die. The God I know isn't going to kill me this isn't going to be the end but the point of surrender isn't you're not surrendering to the God you know, you're surrendering to the divine you don't know. It's a mystery, right it's not. And so it's a it's a fascinating paradox it's like, I mean through this work that that God does through me, I had this pretty intimate relationship with the divine. On the flip side, even that experience was a total mystery, you know I mean I'm in session and who knows what's happening and all the stuff's going on and these miracles and so on. That was the part that I really focused in on not what I thought I knew of the divine or what I thought I knew God wanted for me, but the idea that I had no idea what that would be, and that that would allow me to respond. However, I was called in whatever way, I felt pulled forward. I know that you've explained surrender means accepting everything exactly as it is right now. Yeah. And I'm on this side of things, pre going deep into okay if that happens let's just go in and experience it and decide of not surrender not in every place in my life but I feel what you're saying I because this is exactly what I'm working on right now since being with you in session. This is my path. Yeah. And God knows I've gotten myself here as successfully as I have because I didn't surrender right exactly you know that and so that's a paradigm that's worked for me. Yeah. And yet I know what I'm being called to. So I want to talk a little bit about the idea of surrendering to God but I also want to read something that you said this is a quote from you during our private session because it Okay, my world. Okay. And you said you can have really profound experiences of peace and connection, even in the midst of the storm. And that could be coupled with sharp contrast, you know, of areas where there's an opportunity to really surrender to really deeply let go of and just let divine grace, let divine presence pour into every part of your life. Poof. The only resolution for the core wound from my perspective is with God with divinity and so there's really only one pathway there. Call it whatever you will but that is to surrender to turn life, every aspect of one's life over to God. I think when we do that, something extraordinary begins to express. Yeah, sounds pretty meaningful listening to you say it. I think I've said these things before. Sounds familiar and it's wonderful to hear you say them. That's, yeah, I think it's right. I think it's spot on. That's exactly how I perceive it. And when you say at the end because that's the transcendence there right that's the transmutation. When you do that at a core level in the midst of a storm or not at in a during core wounds all of it to let go to deeply deeply just something extraordinary begins to unfold. What talk about that the extraordinary. Well, the talking about it is. It's almost I don't want to say dangerous but it's, it's like depositing carrots where carrots aren't helpful, if you understand what I'm trying to say. In other words, if I ask you right now, okay Debbie, what, what could happen, what would be extraordinary. Right, you probably have ideas right here here. Oh, I've got an idea this and this and this. And maybe all of those things happen. I don't know right that's not been my walk that's not been my journey with surrender but I'm not saying it doesn't happen. The thing is, what does unfold, even if it has absolutely nothing to do with what you think you want, what you think is most important in your life. It is extraordinary beyond measure. And, and this is the point, you cannot imagine, you can't conceive of it. That's the point of surrender. And the reason why I think it's a little dangerous to talk about is that, I mean, at least in me, those words in live in my separate self my separate self goes I'll come up with a list. I got all sorts of things, you know, let me, let me tell you what would be extraordinary. In fact, let me tell God, here's a list. Here are the extraordinary things I want to do. And then, if I'm letting go of control, and I, and I have an attachment to that, well that's not really surrender. It's like saying, I'll let go of control but as long as this this and this are true, like it's a negotiated surrender like somehow, you know, but I mean surrender has a really, for a lot of people, it seems to have a very negative connotation like it's, you know, I'm, I'm giving up sovereignty I'm giving up, you know, my vision of my life my identity on and on it. For a lot of people can feel like there's a death associated with it, or maybe the most profound transition and passing. I get all of that I'm not I'm not immune to that I've experienced those things and the grace that flows when we get out of the way is just it's beyond measure. Here's another way to think of it, like if our lives are like a divine garden, then control the idea that we have control over life. It's like kinking the, the divine host, and we're in the garden we're going, why isn't this thing getting watered. You know, why where's the water. And it's because we're over there with a stop sign up to God saying, Okay, you, I got this like you, I, I'm going to take care of this I'm going to weed the garden I'm going to, and we think the garden has to be we did we think we have to plant the garden. We have no concept of how rich the garden is gardens already been planted the trees already mature the flowers everything is already fully developed and expressed. Here's another way of saying this, I interviewed the Christian mystic, Thomas Keating a short time before he he transitioned before he passed away before he dropped the body. And just over a year beforehand, and he made reference to the thinly veiled illusion of free will. And I mean, you made a reference to a mic drop is something I said, I mean, for me that was a mic drop that you know when Keating said this was like, yes, but it's such a contrary concept to the way that we grow up to the cosmology of separation that we learn we go to school we learn how to be successful it's all predicated on I'm doing this. We even have these statements like if it's going to be it's up to me, I'm going to make it happen right we've got all these things that are about my creativity my expression my dream. The idea of what about the divine will what about divine expression what about that. And as it turns out it's so in alignment with the core of who each of us are, there's no way it can't be. It's that in separation, we think we know who we are and we don't have a clue, we don't have any concept of who we are. And when we begin to let go of control we start discovering something completely different. Again, I'm not sure I'm really answering the question I don't know how to how to talk about it. It's, it's like, if we aim directly at it. Okay, you know if you're looking at the night sky how you can see things out of the corner of your eyes sometimes better than if you focus directly ahead it's like that. These unexpected things divine grace and divine presence just pour in everywhere, but they're, they're not where necessarily where you're aimed where you think you're headed, maybe they are, but, but maybe they're not. When that happens. You know, you start to realize, oh, there's this whole flow thing going on. And the flow thing is already happening it's not even up to me. The only thing that's up to me to have flow, a flow experience a deep flow experience, just to let go of control. I think there's this river that's moving here. And for me to be in flow of that river I just need to stop thinking that I am something other than the river that I need to manage the flow of the river, the river is beautiful it's perfect. That's profound. You know, and listening to you say that. This is important for you to hear that since our session and since this past Saturday night. I don't know where this is headed. I know response no question no answer. I just am in process. But my circumstances have shifted. And I don't fully know what that means, but they were it was shocking to me. Now, I didn't do what you did, but I have really mindfully been working on this releasing this letting go just staying with me. And that's maybe the one thing I did right plus prayer and meditation in your classes and things. And no one is more shocked than I that things took a turn of events. And I'm just sitting back and watching and even watching my reactions, you know, the negativity the positivity the fascinations it's like and it's all. Okay, I'm letting you unfold. And I know you've said that all control does all control does is amplify suffering. How are control and suffering married as well as an odds with true peace in our lives. Well, I mean the way I think about suffering is suffering is when we're in the gap between what is and what we want somewhere right anywhere other than what is we're suffering right and that I mean that suffering could take place in lots of different ways it could be a physical suffering and emotional spiritual on and on all the ways that human beings suffer and control. It seems to me is the lead participant in that dynamic because control is the voice the energy of I can make this the way I want it to be. And I mean, my will, my sense of what is unfolding already, we're into my separate self, we're into some aspect of me that believes it is other than divinity, other than you, other than all those people over there and all, you know, all of us right and but instead of the whole experience. I'm now having an experience that I need to do something or it's incumbent or I'm inspired to do something or there are lots of different ways. And so the minute that I start thinking I'm in charge and I'm in the gap between what is and what I want. And now I'm just amplifying the discomfort there, even though I think I'm resolving it. I mean, if you think about it, like if we had everyone who's listening to the podcast right now, and the radio show at all this, right, we were all together in one place and whatever size that audience is. And you and I are on stage together, and we're passing a mic around the room. And our first question of the group is going to be, who in here likes to suffer. I'm going to guess no one raises their hand, right. No one is saying yes in my heart of hearts I like to suffer. The next question would be, and how many of you think that the thing you're engaged in right now that you're most focused on in your life is actually causing your suffering, or some of it. How many of you think that that's true, probably very few people are going to raise their hand. And then the next question would be, and yet, the thing you're most focused on probably you've been focused on it for a while. So what is that? What is that instinct in each of us? And I mean, the way I think of it is, there's the separate self. There's a separate self going, I can figure this out. I can, and if I don't know, I can find somebody who does know. And when I figure out who that person is and I learn from them, then I can make things the way I want them to be. And we spend decades and untold amounts of money, resources, time, energy, and so on pursuing those solutions. But if we think about our lives, even if we think about our lives, we're not going to be able to do that. In our lives, even over the course of decades, you know, in what way have those things paid off? In what way have they actually reduced our suffering? And yet none of us raised our hand and said we wanted to suffer. So there's this that there's the tension there's the paradox that's going on around control and suffering and so on. And I just keep thinking, I can figure this out. You know, I know I haven't done it yet, but I can figure it out, you know, and then we look on, you know, wherever you look social media or whatever, and we see somebody who says, I've got it all and let me show you how beautiful my home is and, and then we think, Oh, a beautiful home, that's what it is or I've got it all let me show you my beautiful spouse or my beautiful partner or my beautiful children or the beautiful view and we think, Oh, it's, that's what it is. It's something that's in separation. Looking through the lens of separation, we think we can resolve the discomfort that is actually just a function of separation. So since that momentous time in June, 2011, when you arranged to surrender, and you were successful, how have you changed? How has your life changed? What's remarkably different about it? Well, this, this is the thing that's so funny about this Debbie, it's like, I mean, what does what actually happens when you surrender, right? What is next? The answer is more surrender. It's like, I, and I had, I had this experience of freedom and liberation like I'd never known, and it lasted for, I don't know, for maybe eight weeks, 10 weeks, maybe maybe it was 12 weeks. But at some point in there, you know, some part of me thought, I need to get in here. I gotta run, I gotta take this over again. I mean, this, this break has been wonderful. I know a better way. I mean, this is, it's not happening fast enough, whatever it was. And, and so, and then I started suffering again. And then I went, Oh, wait, do I want to go through the June 30th experience again? Like, do I need to go through that? And I mean, in a way, that's the last whatever it is, you know, 11 plus years. And there's a lot that's integrating in that process, meaning those aspects of the separate self come forward or animated. There's discomfort, at least in my experience when that happens. And, and then a level of peace is those things integrate and more and more of an experience of my whole self. But, you know, there's a projection on the part of my empowered and unintegrated self, the stage two version of me. And that projection is, there's a perfect life. And this is what a perfect life looks like, right? And that's not what has unfolded over the last 11 years for me. It's, it's not the perfect life. It's, it's a beautiful, profound life. And it has challenges. And when those challenges show up, and I am challenged by them or I'm upset or agitated, I think, Oh, here's another part of my separate self showing up to integrate. Here's another opportunity for me to notice where I want to control and to consciously surrender yet again. And I mean, here's an example of this. If you had asked me two years ago, Ken, do you understand unconditional love? I would have said, Oh, yeah, Debbie, let me tell you. I had this experience in 2011 and I've been integrating and da, da, da, da, da. And on August 1 of last year of 2021, my ex-wife and I took our oldest child to residential treatment for mental health issues. And I gave our oldest daughter a hug and had a had a profound transition there. And I don't know, three weeks later, my ex-wife informed me that our oldest child was effectively estranging herself from me and ending all contact. And I heard that and I thought, what? What? That doesn't make any sense at all. And there was a part of me that showed up as my disempowered and unintegrated self. And there was a part that showed up as my empowered and unintegrated self. And I wanted to take control and I felt, you know, that things were out of control and why is this happening to me and poor me and blah, blah, blah. And then after a little while, I started realizing, oh, here comes another part of my unintegrated self. And with a little bit of integration, I started realizing, here is a masterclass in unconditional love. Not what I would have ordered up. A very painful, challenging process. For sure. More growth in the last year than I can ever remember happening in that timeframe. And our oldest child has not reconnected. There's no, like, and now magic story happening here. It's a deeper experience of learning how to love her unconditionally without a conventional relationship. And I think, I mean, that's not an experience that I would wish on anyone. It's been very painful. And I've also grown in incredible ways. And so I guess I want to be very careful because and hopefully I've succeeded at being careful here. I don't want to paint this magical dynamic, you know, a walk with divinity, a deeper level of intimacy with our wholeness. It's not what we think it's going to be. It's often very, very different. And it is profound and beautiful in ways that we can't begin to imagine. And so I would say that is the, if there's one characteristic of the last 11 plus years since surrender, it's that there have been lots of additional opportunities to surrender at every moment of the day. And I continue integrating, I continue having aspects of my separate self be animated and, and I become consciously aware of it. And then I've learned to recognize that as a beautiful invitation to something wonderful. I used to get really upset about it. And for the most part, I don't get upset anymore, but that doesn't mean it's easy or a walk in the park or any of those things. Thank you for sharing that. That's very deep, very personal. And I, I honor your story and your path and hold the light for all of you in this experience. What is it like for you to have, so God flows through you, it seems to me, and you can correct me how you would typify that, but you have this very innate experience of divinity. And when you work with people, there's a transmission because you can see people in their divine nature, even if they cannot. And, and I know you were told when you started on this path, you had somebody say to you, you've been this many lifetimes, this is not your first go around. So talk about what is it like to feel that flow, that connection to have that relationship with the divine? Oh, I mean, it's, it's the most meaningful and significant experience by far of my life. It, it gives everything else meaning. It's, for me, there's a visceral component to it, my hands and feet, buzz and tingle and all sorts of other awareness floods in. I'm, you know, obviously a pretty sensitive person and I'm not afraid of letting my emotions express and so on. And so for me, there are often tears when I'm working with people. I mean, maybe for them, but for sure for me and those tears are really about the beauty about the awe and wonder of that experience. And yeah, it's, it's an, to me, that's something that is available to everyone. I don't mean my particular, I think we all have individual experiences, but and, you know, I mean, the name God to me, it doesn't have, it can, it can have a religious connotation. I'm not interested in trying to disrupt people's structures and their lives and the things that have meaning for them. For me, it's divinity, it's God, it's the emptiness, it's the nothing, it's everything, you know, whatever, it's just a placeholder for it. And it's everywhere and somehow at the same time, it's a very intimate relationship. It's a very, and initially it felt very uncomfortable to me actually, the buzzing hands and feet, it was scary, I didn't understand it. But now if I do anything that disrupts that, then I stop doing whatever that is. I mean, because that is for me, you know, that's the illuminating dynamic of the path of walking with the divine is all of these aspects. So, so it's with me all the time and then there's kind of a special dynamic that opens when I'm when I'm working with people and I mean I can't, it's still just beyond my ability to fathom, I mean, whatever has happened to be able to have this opportunity. It is such a beautiful gift to sit in such a profound and sacred space with people and watch them do whatever work is in their queue and support them somehow or watch the divine do that work with them and somehow have a front seat to it. You have this practice that's called beneath the sand, and you say that it results in a visceral experience of wholeness which is our true nature or innate divine wholeness. Can you talk a little bit about the practice of beneath the sand, what that is. I came from a download that showed up for me in the fall of 2010 and actually showed up before I surrendered. And I was asking God like, I mean, I guess I'm going to start trying to make my living this way and I probably should have something to teach you know I mean I was doing session work with people and you know I was like, I couldn't, I had nothing to say I didn't have any questions I didn't know what to tell them. And so, you know, I'm thinking, Alright, God, let's have a process for money, let's have a process for love, let's have a blah, blah, blah, you know I think of it like the big five. And so I'm thinking that's what I'm going to get, and I don't know how it's going to come and, you know, and I'm not. I probably was a little eager for it and just curious when is this going to show up. So anyway, September, I'm working on a client boom this download comes in and I was expecting all this complication and it was just this very simple download. But the implications of it were, I mean for me at least quite profound, I said out loud, that's it. So simple. And so the practice is, in a way, very, very simple. There's a process for preparing that the language I use is soul embodiment. Think of soul embodiment as supporting your soul in coming home in the body, like from maybe a head focus dynamic or a heart focus dynamic down into the hips. That's always happening when I'm working with people whether we're focusing on it or not. But there's all the stuff that happens when you come home in the hips, it shifts from a sort of a thinking world to a feeling world to then a being world. And when we're in a being space, there are resources available to us that are just, I mean, it's kind of more of that beautiful mystery. Once you're in a being space at just enough of a level, you can actually drop into this experience and the practice, it doesn't have to take long take a half an hour or something. And when you go into the, it's like, I mean, I've taken people into it one on one and groups and so on. But and when I've been able to be with people in person like I'm teaching a group in person or on the rare occasion I do one on one work in person. I mean, people's jaws will come on here and just like they're like, what? Like because the body, all the pain, everything just disappears. Because all of those things are artifacts of the illusion of separation. It's not really who we are. We are whole and fully integrated. But the thing about this practice is it's not a mind based dynamic. It's entirely experiential. That may even be hard to understand. Like how is that even possible? I don't know. God just does it through me, right? I mean, when people are practicing beneath the sand, they're just putting on an audio and I'm facilitating beneath the sand and whatever's coming out of my mouth is coming out and people hear whatever they hear and they go have the experience and then that with enough practice, that can become the anchor point like the reference point from which life has lived rather than the reference point of the separate perspective, you know, where there's noise in the body or the mind or the outward expression of life or there's a nightmare on the planet or there's all this drama, these things we have to figure out resolve. When we're having an experience of wholeness, we realize there isn't a problem anywhere. There's not a problem in me. There's not a problem in my body. There's not a problem in my life. And it's not like, la, la, la, la, la, there's no problem. It's, oh my gosh, there is no problem. We're having a being experience of, I mean, even talking about a problem doesn't make sense. So not sure I'm really answering your question. It's really, it's difficult to answer in one way and another way. It's sort of simple, but yeah, well, I mean, I'll correlate it to a quote from you, which is a mystical encounter when you experience the divine within can include spontaneous spiritual healing. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you can have fun. See, all these things that we think are most important, we aim at them, right? We practice modalities or we do things and we think I want to heal. The thing is, at least from my perspective, those are not things to aim at. Those are byproducts of who we are. So if we aim at the experience or uncover, drop into the experience if we are, then all this other stuff just shifts, but it shifts because that's the natural outflow of who we are. So rather than trying to do a healing, if we just have an experience of who we are and practice that on a regular basis, then the healing is the natural byproduct of it. It happens spontaneously. Or rather than saying, I want a life full of peace and calm, we focus on, I mean, I come to a deeper, more intimate experience of the divine. And the byproduct is, I have an experience of the peace of God, not once, not twice, but in every moment of my life. And if I'm not, maybe one of the thoughts is, I wonder where I think I'm in charge. And then I surrender that and open up to that grace and flow again. And talk more about what you offer. So you've got your one-on-one sessions, but I know you do retreats, you do a lot. And I want to know, and I'm sure people who are listening would be curious, can you get into that a bit, unpack it? Yeah, you know, a couple of years. So historically, the way that I've taught has been through a sequence of programs, basically that, and it's sort of come to me backwards. Like the first classes I taught turn out to be the most advanced classes and I don't realize and, you know, only a certain number of people even know what I'm talking about. And then, and then I integrate and embody a little bit more. And then I'm like, oh, this comes before that. And so, you know, over the years I realized, oh, here's the intro, here's this, here's this. And historically, I would teach the intro, and then I would teach, you know, the next level and the next level. And people work through those in sequence and somebody might come along and say, well, I'd like to take a level three class. And I'd say, well, you got to start at the beginning and you know, you're paying X number of dollars for each program and so on. And a couple of years ago, I had been sort of asking, again, it's the questions of God, you know, I can feel the call, but I can't figure out what the answer is. Like, I could tell I'm supposed to be doing something different here, but what am I supposed to do? And I woke up with a dream that was like, here's the answer. And so I formed this membership with my online learning platform I call the Resonance Institute. And so I started offering a membership to the Resonance Institute that includes all the programs. And then actually about three years ago or two and a half years ago, I started offering a virtual retreat series every other Thursday. And when I offered the membership in the Resonance Institute, I included that. And like, I've been doing a Tuesday transmission for, I don't know, 12 years now. And I included that in membership. And then I thought, well, maybe people have questions so that I do and ask me anything once a month for members. So at this point, the membership offers this really complete kind of set of resources and opportunities to interact and ask questions and do teaching and receive, you know, facilitation in the context of a group and so on. And then with the one on one work, it's, they're kind of two different things like the one on one work hasn't really been that accessible to most people and I mean financially. And so one of the things I did is I, I offer like a limited number of discounted private sessions to members. And then if there aren't any available they just sort of wait until one's available and then we can schedule. But the most of my private practice is built around supporting spiritual messengers. And these are people with whom I might work for, I mean, some of them I've been working with for more than 10 years. So they're not, I mean, I don't think anyone ever approached one on one work with me and thought I'm going to work with this guy for the next 10 years. And most people probably were like, Oh, there's something going up or a friend of theirs said, Hey, you got to talk to this guy's too weird for words, you know, whatever, and, you know, figure this out but I think this might be helpful to you. And so they might come because they're having an experience of dissonance or something doesn't feel quite aligned. And then, but that shifts so quickly and then they start realizing, Oh my gosh, in this space, I'm able to step more fully into who I am in a way that I just never could before. And so the work that I do on that kind of ongoing deeper level with messengers, it's sort of like the last 3% if that makes sense in terms of the spiritual work that I think we're all doing but in particular some messengers are really engaged at depth. And I find all of that fascinating. I love all of it. You know, the Thursday group it's wonderful that that's accessible to people now through the membership and it's wonderful to be able to work one on one with people who might otherwise not be able to do that because of the investment through the discounted stuff. And I mean, I love love love working with spiritual messengers when there is an alignment with a messenger and I, it's really important for me that there is that deeper alignment because when it's there. I mean, there's just, it's unbelievable the kind of work that they can get done in that space. And yeah, I mean I'm just sort of drifting off thinking about the kinds of things that have happened with people I've worked with, and then I'm continuing to work with and it's, I mean like one of the messengers I'm working with I've worked with her for about the last 10 and a half years. And I mean, I would say most people if they looked at her life they would say there is a level of magic that is infiltrating every part of her life I mean it's it's absolutely extraordinary. And from my perspective what I see is here is an embodied messenger who has done absolutely a profound level of inner work and continues to embody and integrate in extraordinary ways. And once that embodiment reaches a certain tipping point. It's just start flowing at, I mean in ways again that are just almost impossible to put into words, and someone else looks at them and goes, How are they having that kind of magical experience they're thinking what's the intention they're holding that tensions got nothing to do with it they're having a profound experience of divine flow, they are in a state of profound alignment with themselves and the divine expression as them. They're integrated and embodied, and it just, I mean, it's their calling takes off the resonance with their audience, their personal lives on and on and on, I mean it's just really incredible. Fantastic. So folks who are interested in your free gift which is it's considerable it's like a 17 week class right so yeah, you plus transmissions. Yeah, you know, streaming conversation and go to Ken W stone.com slash dare. And also at that website, Ken W stone.com slash dare you will find the retreats, the membership, the one on one work. And so far I looked at your website enough I should know, but I assume really everything is there to connect with you. Yeah, yeah, the book is is not yet quite released but everything else is there and I mean really this class is a wonderful kind of introduction to the work. I mean, I'm repeating what people have told me some of my students are like you really need to make sure people know about this because, you know, the, like, there are drawings in there I'm scribbling on my iPad somehow it has meaning. I'm answering questions for students that are taking it now you can ask questions online I'm personally responding. It's a wonderful and it's free. So, it's a great way to sort of dip your toe in have some experience get into transmission and so on. And if there's deeper resonance I mean I'd love to invite people into membership and you know if it doesn't happen with very many people but when there is that deeper level of resonance I mean I love working with messengers I absolutely enjoy that work in ways I don't even have language for. And it's just incredible to walk with people, however it resonates, when it does, you know, in all these different ways. Resonance and that your beginnings were music your first love your first yeah, yeah, yeah, look how beautiful that this comes back around through God through you. Truly. Yeah, last question can this is dare to dream. What do you next dare to dream any future dreams or goals. You know, I would say my biggest the biggest thing that I am daring to dream is of my life in a fully surrendered state where I am responding from a totally integrated and body place to the divine call in each and every holy and sacred moment of my life. And it feels like it's it's getting closer. And I am definitely I mean that that's the dream that I'm daring to have for myself and and for all of us, I think that that is such a there's so much. It's such a resonant opportunity and a resonant reality. And one of the things I love about the word resonance is it means whatever it means to you. You know, I have a meaning that is particular to me, you have a meaning for you. Everyone who's listening has their own meaning. And that's my experience of divine presence. It's totally personal. It's a very intimate experience. It has meaning for you in ways that maybe are surprising and wonderful. And I'm daring to dream that for myself. Spirituality is my number one value. So I feel deeply moved by our conversation today and how you ended it and honestly can just to be out in the world what you're offering. It's such an auspicious time. I'm deeply grateful. I'm grateful for the opportunity to connect with you, Debbie. I love your work. It's an honor to be here with you and having this conversation. It's an honor to walk with you. Thank you so much for including me in your walk and introducing me to your community. Absolutely. My pleasure. And hopefully we'll do this again. We'll dance again. I hope so. I look forward to it. Thank you to all the folks who are curious and want to know more, get his free course or work with him. Go to Ken W stone.com slash D a R E slash dare right Ken W stone.com slash dare. And I end today's show with this quote from Mark Nepo surrender is like a fish finding the current and going with it. Subscribe to this number one transformation weekly shows with Debbie dashinger. Leave a comment, share, please subscribe. Next week's show is going to be featuring back on the show. The Japanese Maverick Ken Honda. Ken's books have sold over 7 million copies. He's known worldwide and offers the happy money healing program folks. Thank you so much for joining us today on dare to dream. Don't just dare to dream. Remember to turn your dreams into your reality and please flow with join us on this. Imagine what could happen in the world. If there was surrender at that level, letting go at that level, allowing and receiving the divine within us at that level. I send you all blessings. Thanks for joining us.