 Welcome to tonight's Sauer Center of Taiwan Studies seminar. This is the last but least lecture in our Contemporary Taiwan Indigenous Studies lecture series. We're running with the Shrinni Museum in Taipei. And what we've done over the last almost two years is look at Taiwan's Indigenous peoples through a range of different academic angles. But this is the first literature focus talk. We have had Shichou Yu did talk on this issue about one of her book. But this time we've got some literary analysis. And we're really delighted to welcome Dr. Chen Zheban from National Tsinghua University. She's going to be talking about a project that she's co-authored with Chou Weifan. It's one of the slightly more senior figures in Taiwan's literature, documentary and film studies scene. I think we first invited Dr. Chen, something like well over a year ago now. So it kind of felt like we're being kind of anticipating her visit. Dr. Chen received her PhD from the university that many of us really love here at Sauer Center. So that's National Jengi University. Because BU is a real Dendara graduate. I'm kind of a language right now. But I still see myself as a Dendara graduate. Dr. Chen did her PhD in the Chinese department at Dendara. And now is at National Tsinghua University. And her first talk is going to be a kind of overview talk on Indigenous literature. Tomorrow she'll have a second, more specialized talk. But for now let's give her a very big so-as-well. Delighted. Good night everyone. I'm very happy to see new friends and old friends here. And very great to have the chance to share some topic about Taiwan Indigenous literature. This topic is the article that I and Professor Chuo Guifen, we all write this article. And you know, thank you all coming here. And I try my best to speak English. Because Dabi said I graduated from Chinese study. So I try my best. Hope you can understand what I said. And I have divided my presentation into three parts. One part is I will talk about the history of Taiwan Indigenous people literature. And then I will talk about the two stages about this literature phenomenon. And finally I would connect this phenomenon into native resurgence. So I will talk about the three topics about this. And I mentioned before this paper I write with Guifen Chuo. I think co-writing is an interesting journey for me and for us. Because when we talk about this topic, we have a different idea about this Taiwan Indigenous people literature. And although we have talked about many times, we both observed two phenomena. We have the same feeling about this change. One change is the writing style. And the other is different ways to produce the stories. So this is my topic about this from realistic style to magic realism. And from literature words to culture and creative industries. So we will focus on this change. And how do we talk about this change? Do you see the pictures? I think maybe all of you are not familiar with these pictures. Do you see this black and white picture? This is the magazine published by the Indigenous movement. Mountains beyond mountains. You can see the topic about this magic magazine is use the direct sentence to talk something. Like come back home or to climb the right four tracks. So this magazine published in the social movement. Because this magazine want to interrupt, to attract people's attention. So their sentence, their talking, their words are very direct. You can imagine when you are arguing with others, we also use the direct sentence to others. So this magazine use this way, use realistic style to talk something. And the second picture is the first novel of Taiwan Indigenous people literature. It calls The Last Hunter. This novel by Thomas Tamapima. And he use what he write is talk about the Indigenous people struggle in the society, in modern society. So this experience is true. And he use the realistic style to talk about this. And this way ensure reader would understand the situation Indigenous people are. So this is the realistic style. But about two thousand years later, we find some words change their style. Like the third picture is about the language of Dongbu Sathik. You see the topic of the book. The language is full of magical realism. The writer use the magical realism to tell some stories. And for the writer, he said he want to use this special way to tell the story for the audience and for the new age. And this book like magical realism works will transform into cultural and creativity industry. Like the fourth picture. And this is means the words to activity to another ways to tell the story. And the fifth picture I give the question mark. Because we can imagine if we see the picture is the process of Taiwan Indigenous literature. And which what kind of picture that the files will appear. So I think we can predict the future of the Indigenous literature. Because it depends on the writer. But what I want to focus on the literature is the possibility of future making as a future making. So this topic, this talk will focus on literature. How the literature is the possibility of future making for Indigenous people. How and what step do the literature do. So this is the importance of the talk I want to share with you. And the features of the literature will make the possibility of future for Indigenous people. But how do I to establish this sentence come true. So I use form for concept to reply these questions. The one is writing style and the other is creativity catalyst. This too is today's talking point. I think whatever the writing style or the source or resource to be a creative industrial. All of they are asked who I am. This who I am is not question mark. Because it clearly shows the Indigenous consciousness. It's very clear. And they use different ways to show these conscious. Because they know they are. But use different ways to show this. Because they want to everyone understand what they are. So this is one, this is topic today. I want to share about it. And tomorrow's talk I will focus on the ethnic identity and contested of word view. I want to if today's talking is about literature research, literature study. Tomorrow's talking is about culture study with literature. So I think it's different about we call the Indigenous literature as future making. So today I think today is the foundation of the tomorrow's talking. So tomorrow the most important thing is who am I. Who am I and ask and question mark. Because in Taiwan Indigenous people the most important thing is to share who I am. If you join the series of talk, dance, performance and documentary also shows there who I am. Who I am included literature. But if we have a different ways to think about the literature, we also find the literature the writer think in the modern life. We have many choice to say who I am. So the choice is most important for cultural identity. Which kind of situation do Indigenous people choose to say their name? Which name did they choose for everyone? So I think there is an interesting example for this question. Famous writer Xia Malan Puan have a speech. And the audience asked her, as he, which name, who are you? Xia Malan Puan says he answer very, very interesting. He asked the audience, he said, which name do you want to reply to you? Which name? The audience very surprised. Because we also know everyone has one name. But Xia Malan Puan says he had a lot of name. Because Xia Malan Puan in the Tao contest it shows the number one is his song. And Xia Malan is the meaning of father. So the name Xia Malan Puan means he is that one's father. So this is the spatial contact for Taiwan Indigenous people. This example shows Indigenous people not only have one name, but also they have the freedom, have the right to choose which name do they want to share? Which name do you want to represent to what kind of person? So tomorrow's sharing will focus on who and I is about the choice, the issue of the choice. But I think when we ask who and I, we have to focus on who I am. So today's sharing about the writing style and how the literature changed to the cultural and creativity in the industrial. So we think maybe in other fields, Indigenous people would use different ways to talk about their name to decide which one do we want to be. But why do I use literature? I think why the Sun Da Chuan, a professor in Taiwan, says this paragraph. I think this word, this paragraph is a good way to explain the literature could do. It says in terms of language use, Indigenous people could engage in and communicate with their native culture. Accordingly, Indigenous writers are not passive responders to ask external environment, but active agents for creating a new world. So in the history of Taiwan Indigenous people, they are always the passive responders. But by writing, by acting, by making activity, they would change this way to make a new world. So how does this, it means we cannot merely see Indigenous literature as a test that realistically reconstructing the situation. We also think literature is discovering new possibilities and issues. And the literature would make a social space that the Indigenous writer could share some idea with others and redefine themselves and share their identity. So the writing is most important for Indigenous people. Maybe this is not the only way, but by writing, the Indigenous people could talk about their inner world and most important, share to others. So by writing, they could make a new world in the history. Indigenous people also always be the other. This is an example to be others. We see this is in the 17th century. We can see they are called barbarians in some materials. This is the first, maybe the earliest picture of portraying Indigenous people. They are portrayed by Dutch and Spanish. They called barbarians over for Mosa. When you think this picture, you will see the man with strong muscles and grow hair. But this is not the pictures I want to share about the audience. Do you look this picture carefully? You can see the man in the back of the man is a lot of deer. So for Mosa, this barbarian is wrong for hunting a deer. This picture shows there are a lot of property in Mosa, in this island. The Indigenous people will hunt for deer and it shows they are rich and welcome to this island. This picture shows the Dutch and Spanish desire to represent Indigenous people. In the second picture, in Qing Dynasty, there are some portrays for Indigenous people like this. This picture is shown to royalty. The issue is about the enlightenment and scenarization. So when we see the picture with the man and the woman, we will notice about what kind of food they wear and what kind of life they get. So it shows this tribe is part of the region or part of the region. So do you guess this kind of picture is part of the region or part of the region? You guess. Why? Because they wear clothes. But you see the clothes are not covered all over the body, right? And the girl with a smile face because every picture, the female have the same face. But the man with different when we see this man, we feel he is wild. So this picture shows the cockpit of the region to royalty. And remind royalty maybe you have to give their enlightenment to this tribe. So the picture with Indigenous people talk about the issue of enlightenment. And the third. Third is not painting. The third picture shows the photographer. At the start of the photographer in the 1830s, the Japanese colonial empire used these pictures for their study about ethnology. So the Indigenous people in this picture also they are the material for the study. So Indigenous people always be others in all kinds of material. And they are represented with different desire. So this is why when Indigenous people could use their language, use their Chinese language to project their self. This is most important of all. Because in long history they are be others for a long time. And when we start to talk about Indigenous literature, we have to identify two words. One word is of original literature. And it shows the writer words by Japanese and Han Chinese writers about Indigenous culture and history. This work is a lot. And we call it of original literature. Indigenous literature is the writer is Indigenous writers. So they are very different in our talking context. But sometimes we also use of original literature and Indigenous literature at the same time. Sometimes. But John Bacon, a professor of Indigenous writers of Taiwan, he identified the two concepts about this. The John Bacon says the differentiation will help us make the historical territory of Aboriginal literature, which sees the emergency of Indigenous literature in its latest phase of development. So we focus on the Indigenous literature. It means this is literature written by Indigenous people. So in this definition, we will talk about I think most important of two stage of Indigenous literature. One stage is the period between 1984 and 200 marks the first stage, 2000 years. And the second stage would begin roughly with the turn of the 21st century. These two stages maybe is not perfect. But this is the result I and Guiven Chiu talk about. Why? We notice about the change of writing style. Do you remember the start of the speech, the talking? We talk about the Indigenous people start the rise and social movement. In that situation, the right sentence, the right words will strengthen the right cram. So what they do and what they talk about the literature also focus on the Indigenous. And they use, this word use the social realism to represent, to tell the story. And after 2000 years, something different. And because the Indigenous people writer notice the Indigenousism and cosmopolitanism, we all have a complicated relation with the global and the transcultural vision as they expand the subject to ecology, modernity, globalism and panoramic awareness. So these writer things maybe they don't use the same way to talk about something because they notice the Indigenousism and the cosmopolitanism will twinkle together and this is the true life, the true struggle. And how did they to represent this situation? Maybe social realism is not enough to produce, to represent this situation. They find another way like magical realism to describe it. So this is the two stages about what I want to say. We talk about the process of Taiwan Indigenous literature. We divided the two stages from realistic style to magical socialism. And this is the change of writing style. But most important is why and why do they choose magical realism to tell the story? Why? But when I talk about this topic, we have to focus on the rise of the Taiwan Indigenous people literature. Maybe we can notice three topics about this. The rise of Indigenous literature. The first, we would notice Indigenous movement. Like we introduced the mountains beyond the mountains. And another picture is the 1980s, the Indigenous movement. They also used the direct way, the direct sentence to show it's spatial, specific right crimes. So the rise of the Indigenous literature have the close relationship with Indigenous movement. This is one phenomena. And two, we have to notice about the literary awards. Many Indigenous writers are award winners of this important literary award. Snored by mainstream media and renowned NGOs. So you see these pictures. These books get literary awards in mainstream media. The first is The Last Hunter. He gets a big pride for this. In 1980s, we don't use internet. Maybe we use, but not now. We also have a cell phone. So in that time, people know a lot of things by newspaper. Maybe you are so young. And maybe you are not familiar with this situation. In that time, people would receive enough information by newspaper. So if the Indigenous writer, their work are published in the newspaper, it means a lot of people would read what they said and understand the story they talk. So this is the second phenomena that the rise of Indigenous literature rise because of the literary award. And the third, we have to notice the publisher. In 1987, the Morning Star published support the Indigenous writers to write the story. And now another publisher like Ink and The Right Field also support this, a serious book. So if a work are read by everyone, one way is you have to get literature award and your work will be published on newspaper. And another way is by this publisher. So I think this is the most important thing for the rise of Indigenous people literature because without this support, we can't read these stories and we can't know the writers. So this is the first stage about Taiwan Indigenous literature. So the first phase of this, we want to focus on the theme and the use of language. This formal characteristic can be seen as writing tactic in response to two major issues that Indigenous writer try to address. One is the standardization and the other is right crimes. This is the most important goal for them. And to attend this goal in the theme and the use of language, they also have their tragedy for this. The main thing is the search for Indigenous people in for rooms, reclaim most of the Indigenous culture heritage and resurrect forgotten cultural practice and finally resist against the oppression of dominant culture. So at the first stage, this is the main thing for them. If they want to learn the literature world or they want to be published, they will focus on this main thing. So how do they think the main thing is the important? Not only this thing is popular, but also the thing is real situation for Indigenous people. They would deal with the main thing to be the features of Indigenous literature. Another issue about the use of language is also important. By Sun Da-Chuan, he says, because Indigenous people have the writing system and their overall language, sometimes the overall language is not... Also some of these languages disappear and they don't use this language to communicate with each other. So the Chinese language is maybe the tools for them to communicate with each other. Even though they don't want to use the right Chinese logic, because when we see Indigenous literature, although they use Chinese sentence, Chinese word, they use them with their cultural logic. So when we see this sentence, we will see strange sentence. It means Chinese language logic and their cultural logic. So it's mixed. Chow Guifeng Sings is the features of Indigenous people literature. This is the first stage for Indigenous people literature. Now I want to focus again on post-writing. Indigenous writers always use post-writing to describe their experience in post-writing. When we use post-writing, we also read the first person's point of view. The writer shows their true experience and they want to earn the respect for others. So when they want to do this, they use the realistic to strengthen these opinions. So this is why the first stage uses the realistic style. Because the writer knows this is their mission to let others know what real situations they are and they want to get others respect. So this is why we focus on the realistic style. But sometimes we argued in modern life, maybe the story with realistic style have no interest because young readers want to read more interesting stories. But when we talk about the second stage, I want to introduce some Indigenous writers to you. One is Dova's Tomah Pima. I think maybe you are familiar with this writer because I mentioned him a lot of times. Dova's Tomah Pima, he is a doctor and he comes from the Bunong tribe. But he chose to go to the island to be a doctor. So he is a special man. Originally I prepared a lot but when I stand in front of you, I think I forgot what I noted. So I checked something. Dova was the first Indigenous writer who created literary friends as an Indigenous writer in the Taiwanese literature circle. The Last Hunter is the first novel that appeared in the Taiwan literature field. The story is very interesting. It shows a Bunong man without the confidence in a mountain city. He found their patience in the forest. So he comes back and in the forest he feels happy and he feels confident. He remembers he is a hunter and gets an animal to be a blessing gift. But when he wants to come back home, this hunting is forbidden by the government. The policeman asks Bunong to give his gift. The End of the Story, The Last Hunter shows if this Bunong man is happy in the forest. But now in the mountain life, he has to give up this tradition and live in a depression world. This is the story, The Last Hunter. What the story shows is the Indigenous are suffered under the production capital in the mode of production and the hand-dominated system. It's a story of supper. The Last Hunter is the earliest novel that appeared in the Taiwan literature. It symbolizes the image of The Last Hunter. It shows the last tradition. It shows the last cultural identity. It's all lost. The issue of lost is the first stage of Taiwan's Indigenous literature. This is the Domba Tomapima. The other word is practicing as a medical doctor on the Orchid Island. It shows the ironic topic. He is a doctor with a mountain system. When he came to the Orchid Island, he had a conflict with Dau culture and Bunong culture. We think this work complicated the so-called Indigenous perspective and the complexity of Indigenous issues. This is the Dombas what they show to their readers. The second writer is Shaman Lapuan. He is another highly respected Indigenous writer. He did his job in Taiwan after he graduated from a university. But finally he decided to return to his hometown, the Orchid Islands, to communicate himself with Dau culture. In his literature, like cold ocean with moon and floating ocean like dreams, it also shows the same topic, learning to be a Dau man. This Shaman Lapuan used prose writing to show his first person point of view. His Dau Indigenous identity by learning traditional Dau Indigenous skills, this writer tried to connect himself to Dau culture. This prose writing not only suggests the subjective position of Indigenous eye. In Indigenous literature, eye is the most important issue. But define him as a confident Indigenous man at home with Dau culture. His literature shows the same topic and how to be a Dau man, how to be a confident Dau man. This is the topic his work shows. The other floating dreams in the ocean make a crossing cultural network as the travel to the South Pacific Islands. So maybe we can see this literature as Pacific Indigenousity. Because this work shows Indigenous Dau culture as part of the Indigenous Oceanic culture. So the Shaman Lapuan come from this small island, but he writes the topic of ocean. The topic of ocean, maybe we can connect it with Pacific Ocean. This literature is not limited in the small island. He can combine the big ocean topic. So this is the second writer, Shaman Lapuan in the first stage. And you may argue, why do I, why is there any woman or, you know. So I will introduce you, Ligala Awu, a mother. Ligala Awu, he is a feminist Indigenous writer in Taiwan. I think she is very special because his feminist consciousness was awakened during her marriage with Wadis Nogan. And the experience of living in an Ataia village as Wadis Nogan's wife. But she come from the Paiwan culture background, draw her attention to a different between Paiwan culture and Ataia culture. So at first as the wife of Wadis Nogan, the experience that he noticed the topic of Indigenous people. But to be a father and mother, she found his feminist was attracted by her marriage. So he write a special essay titled, the year wanting a divorce. It shows his grandmother get tired of his husband and his grandmother want to divorce. But this situation is impossible in Ataia culture because Ataia is the father society. So he write this essay about her mother and grandmother want to have a way to come back home. And writing the story of her mother and grandma becomes a symbolic journey home for this Indigenous feminist. So finally he broke up with Wadis Nogan and he get a new relationship with others. Now she feel very happy. And we admire her because she have courage to do his choice by the gender issue and ethnic issue. So Adigala Awu, Shyamala Poan and Dobas, this is the three writers in the first stage. They use the realistic style, they use the post writing to tell their real story. But I think you are interested in the second phase of Indigenous people's literature. The very different from the first stage is the younger writers have the cosmopolitan outlook to write their word. I think we are sure some ways to talk about this phenomena. One way is as we discuss in the case of Wadis Nogan and Shyamala Poan, Indigenous writers may try to reframe their Indigenous identity with close cultural frameworks by connecting Taiwan Indigenous culture with my royalty culture in other parts of the world. So Shyamala Poan and Wadis Nogan, they are in the first stage, but now they also use the realistic style to tell the story. But they have a different tragedy. Their work is with the cross-cultural framework to make an internal connect. This way well shows the Indigenous literature is not limited in Taiwan, it also in the minority culture literature. And the second, in the hands of emergent writers, Indigenous cosmopolitan find abrasion in the appropriation of global literary modes, such as magical design or time travel, to tackle important Indigenous issues. They use the different ways. The different ways is by the Western literature and the Western movies. And we will talk, the literature world will transform to the cultural and creativity industries. This is the second stage we mentioned about it. And I want to have some example about this. The first is the writer of Badai. Badai, he is famous for his history novel. He used the real historical event and add the Indigenous perspective to finish their historical novel. So the dikwan, you see the dikwan is his first history novel for him. And although he writes his historical novel, the most important gesture is which craft is an important part of Benan cultural tradition. The detailed description of the practice of Benan witchcraft in the historical novel can be seen as the gesture to tell the story. So in the first of Badai's novel dikwan, it shows some witchcraft in the novel. But this is not the magical realism style. We can see this style in the other book. The other book is the journey of a witch. The journey of a witch, the story is very interesting. He told a girl, 50 years old, how did this girl become a Benan witch? This is the story of this. And Badai used a special way to tell the story, like the journey of time travel. And they talk about the girl could come back to talk about the tree spirit. This story shows the mind sense from the Osrula. Do you know this writer? Badai says when he starts to write the journey of the witch, he reads Osrula's earthy circle and has some ideas to write this story. So we can say the journey of the witch, the writer Badai used the fantasy story for their writing. Not the role of witch, but also the way of the tale story. So this is Badai. And another example is Nicole Sokoluman. He says this writer is a similar cosmopolitan, indigenous. He used the fantasy world, like the Lord of Ring, to write the legend of Donggu Saphik. So in Donggu Saphik, he also states clearly that he writes this novel was inspired by the movie, by the book Lord of the Ring. Drawing heavily on the list, castles and legends, the ancient song of the Bulong tribe. The legend of Donggu Saphik tells a fantastic story of the battle between the indigenous and the evil speech. So the story is the type, is the copy, not the copy, has the same ways to talk a journey, to talk a hero journey. But in the Lord of Rings, the spirit or the ghost really exists in the Bulong tradition. Nicole used this animate from their cultural tradition and transformed the characteristic to the story. So we can see Nicole Sokoluman in Badai. They used the fantasy style to tell the story. Maybe you are curious about why, why do they do this? Maybe we can use indigenous with cosmopolitanism. Maybe we can combine two of these to see the relationship of the could reply the questions. While the indigenous village continues to revert as an important source, but these writers do not take this village as their permanent home. The young generation writer travels back and forth between urban space and the indigenous village. So they travel back and forth. They are unlike the first stage, the writer come back home. And the second, while they continue to take indigenous culture and history as their main subject, they also draw on the cultural resource in the outside world like western movie and western literature. In their search for new forms of telling indigenous stories. And third, in contrast to the first generation indigenous writer who rely the realistic amount of storytelling, the young generation often use fantasy and Thai travel to contract their narratives. So the Nicole says the story have to continue, but we have to find a new way to tell the story. At the first stage, the writer tell the story for themselves. But the second stage, the writer tell the story for audience. The audience are not only the hand people, but also their tribe child. Because the child live in the tribe also have the same educational system in mountain Taiwan. Maybe they are not familiar with mother tongue. So the younger generation of writer try to find new way to tell the story. Although they use magical realism to tell the story, but the animate is come from the tribe. The style is magic realism, but the stories, the materials and the spirit are come from the tribe. And I want to share this is from realistic to the magic realism. And now I want to share some examples that the literature transform to different media like this. From fantasy literature to children's theater. It is very interesting because this we talk about the legend of Dungu Saffi. It is the story about the journey a hero, a man to become a hero. And when he get the goal, he have to find a lot of spirit evil. This story are represented in child children's theater. You can see the pictures, the performance use some ways to make fantasy atmosphere. He want to share, he want to reserve the magical realism from this work. So in their stage, in their way tell the story, they also preserve this magical realism. Even this is the children's theater is performance. The second example is this one. This one the writer is Sakino. Their literature are presented to film and comics. It is very interesting because the literature is talk about the stage hunter grandfather tell father. And the father tell his son. And his son tell his son. So it is a circle and it is about the traditional continuum. So this story is warm and maybe suitable for the kids. And this work is the material of elementary school student. So I think we think the comics, this media will attract children's attention in this way. When we see the comics, we are get very interested because the story of telling use the magical realism. Because the kids will go to the forest and he come back to the ancient age. So this is another magical realism to present in comics. This is literature word to cultural products. You know, I see the Biyu is... The book we talk about the journey of the witch is about the girl to be a witchcraft. And the publisher, when you buy the book, maybe you will get this whole, this doll. This doll is Luan. Luan is the benign turn. It means lucky charm, like lucky charm. So even the story about the witch, if you buy the book, you will get this lucky charm. And the doll is cute and small. You may take this product with yourself. And the doll with the pattern of the benign culture. So sometimes some book cover shows this benign culture. When you see the pictures, this is the book cover. And the pattern is come from the journey of the witch they describe. And very interesting, when you buy this book cover, this book cover will ate a piece of beetle nut. Yeah, why? Because in the benign culture, the beetle nut is most important symbol in the witch culture. So you can imagine when you buy the book, maybe you have the chance to get the doll. Maybe you don't like it. But some people feel is like a symbol of lucky charm. And maybe you will get the book cover with beetle nuts. So it shows the literature words to the cultural product. Maybe we can talk about this phenomenon with three points. One is this phenomenon is the category of cultural and creativity industry, like economic and cultural capitalism. And the second, the source of artistic or creative representations. Literature is a source to transfer their media. And the third, literature may be the resource of crossover creations. They will have their new life about new explanation of the literature. So we may see this phenomenon with three, with this point of view. And finally, finally, finally, indigenous literature is a future making. This is the origin I want to share about. Today we talk about the change of writing style. And the literature could be the culture and creative industry. But I want to mention about the change of writing style is not only influenced by western movie or western literature. Maybe we have two notice about it in the tribe culture. So transformation of non-nation between two of us. Maybe we have a two notice. That is we can explain the change of writing style. And the literature and creativity catalyst. Maybe we can think about the emanation of native story and culture. So if we read the story, maybe we will remember the story. But the writer want to read, have a do more like. They want to tell the story with different ways that the story could really continue. And people see the literature, see the theater, see the performance would repeat the story. And people would let that story continue and have a different explanation. This is why the story could exist. And the indigenous people could let that literature as a future making. Okay, that's all. And I forgot the time. I'm so sorry. And thank you for your patience to hear me try my best to explain something. Thank you a lot. Thanks, that's fantastic. That's exactly what we were looking for for one of our book chapters. Because what you did was to outline key trends over two time periods. But you also highlighted a number of writers. Because of time, let me just limit myself to one and a half questions. Could you comment a little bit about how the readership changes between the two phases? Because one of the things that I've noticed through quite a lot of Taiwanese writers that have come to London over the last decade or so is how difficult it is to survive. Unless you're a superstar writer in Taiwan, you can't actually survive on royalties. So that was the question about readership. Is the readership on decline in the way we would expect? And a kind of a half question, which is a kind of a question on behalf of Russia, is if you're going to choose one piece of indigenous literature to be translated for his book series, which one would you choose? Thank you for these questions and comments. Yes, you know, if you join a series of topics of Taiwanese indigenous people, we always hear the same story. Struggle and they have a true fight with others against government. And they have to earn the other's respect and earn their right. So we heard a lot of this story, the laws. So, you know, maybe some people want to hear the same story because the reader will feel they are good enough. But if we read this story again and again, maybe we feel, wow, it's no hope. And maybe we all say it, but we can't do anything, we just say it would. So in our opinion, we think maybe we found some literature writer use a different way to tell the story. They notice this situation. So if they use the same things to focus the struggle, I think this is very important, right? But if we repeat these things, maybe read the feel. Okay, I read a lot of the same stories. And I know, but I can't do anything. Yeah, we can't do anything. So, some writers want to use the different ways to tell the story. The story is not a happy story. It's not. But they use the magical realism to share the tradition. If the reader is tired of the tradition, about those vanish, disappointed. Why do we have different ways to talk about the tradition with hope? But I think it's not the foundation to have the hope. Because the writer have a different way to tell the story and the reader could read the story to know, yes, this is our culture. Yes, this is our tradition. Yes, we know the ancient period of time is good. So, what kind of activity we can do now? So, I think the second stage, we see the style change. But indeed, I think the writer know if I want to continue our story, if we want to preserve the tradition, maybe we have to choose a different way to tell. And maybe we would let the audience understand if we do not, there is no communication with each other. And this is for your first question and comment. And the second, I think if I choose one of the Indigenous writers, it is very difficult for me. Because each word is their soul. And each literature is their culture, is the origin of the culture or lifestyle. So, maybe I want to introduce five Indigenous writers before. If I want to choose one, I want to choose maybe Shyamalan Po An. Why? Because now she is, she writes until now and she published a lot of books, a series of books. Although their topic is focused on the ocean, the Maya Ocean nature, their topic is about to be a Dao man. But their thing is the same. They try five different ways to tell their story. In the recent year, he used a novel to tell the story. A novel, I think is different from the prose writing. And he tried his best to use a novel and his story transported in a documentary. I think maybe, and most important, he writes the ocean. The ocean issue is now very important. It's about the environment, it's about the nature, the relationship of human nature. And most important of all, the Shyamalan Po An's Chinese is very strange. So sometimes some scholars use this example to the scientific study. It shows the different Chinese logic. So maybe this is my suggestion. Because of time, we take a number of questions together. Do you reply? OK. Do you have some paper? OK. Go ahead. You go first. Here, here. I said Chinese well. I think that in the past three years in Taiwan, I think that our history is very important in the civilized education. So when you talk about the creative work of the scholars, we now encourage teachers to write books. So we have a lot of students who have started to write our own history. Especially in the Middle Ages. And when you look at those eight generations, they have recently written articles, these books are all about history. I think this is the future of the civilized education. It's like writing our own history. And then when you talk about the book recommended, I think that Kuei Lei Hua is good. Yes, I think that Kuei Lei Hua is a good book. Although it's not written by the Han people, but I think it's written by the Wenzhou people. Yes, yes. Although it's written by the Han people, it's also because of the Wenzhou people's success. They want to take a picture now, right? Yes, just like that. Thank you. Thank you. OK. Well, your talk was very interesting, of course. Another one writer who wasn't indigenous but was a practicing doctor in Sakhalin Island of the east coast of Russia, North Arcada was Chekhov, of course, who wrote about the indigenous people there. My question is concerning language. All the illustrations of book jackets you showed us, I think they're either Mandarin or in English, and I'm wondering which languages in indigenous literature that you showed was written in. Because I think language is the basis of any culture. And translation is one issue. But when a writer who is multilingual writes, writing in one language is not the same as writing in another. In the European context, if I write in Scots, it's completely different from writing in French. Again, completely different from writing in English. So I'm worried about the time. That's why I'm finding it difficult to say exactly what I want to say. So, there's that question of which languages were the books originally written in. And if the writer was multilingual, surely his thoughts in Mandarin are going to be very different from his thoughts in his indigenous language. The response to Ivan's question. Basically, as far as I know, where all these are written in Mandarin, could they have written in Chinese? Mandarin is all of them. Could they have been written in the original language? Are they fluent enough that they could have done that? Why is this debate about how you went language and literature? So there needs to be a third stage then. Okay, and yes, go ahead. Right, something similar, but I think I really want to think about the possibility of indigenilizing the term of literature because I think among all those indigenous tribes or villages in Taiwan, they have their own classic repertoire of literature. I don't know if you agree with that definition. It's their ritual songs. So it's not only about written... So I think it's a kind of misunderstanding for me if you are talking about indigenous literature. It seems for me, even from your beginning year of 1984, you are talking about Chinese indigenous literature, which means they are mainly written in Chinese, but they all possibly have their original repertoire of traditional expression through words which could be transcribed into organized words but not in Chinese. But they are traditional, they are oral and they express their own ethos. Which sorceress is the negative expression? Charlotte, more neutral. Any more questions? Okay, Leo. Thanks, that was so interesting. I was just wondering, also maybe, building on the question of what language they were writing and who the target audience is or who actually reads these books. So is it all the sorts of people or maybe an indigenous audience or maybe Hans people or maybe too few readers in general. As David said, people can't make a living of writing. So I'd just be curious. Thank you. Just a follow-up. Go ahead, Leo. I just want to know about your definition of our magical realism. How do you define it? This is a fantasy as a genre and I want you to make it clearer. Just a follow-up to on the kind of political economy or economy of these. You mentioned awards. Are awards less available now? In the way that... A lot of literary awards are linked to newspapers and newspapers have declined. A lot of questions there. Thank you so much. I think maybe I could not each one to answer but I think my audience focus on the language topic and the definition of magical realism or from you. You said some pictures. Yes, I noticed about it. Yes, so maybe I can... Maybe I choose the language issues to re-response all of your questions and comments. Yes, this is an important issue to use of language in the Indigenous literature. So we mentioned the Indigenous social movement. In that way, people join the Indigenous movement not only Indigenous people but also Chinese. So in that way, it has been grounded with the Taiwan social movement. A lot of people go to join the Indigenous movement. How did they communicate with each other? They use Chinese. So we see the magazines use the Chinese word but the Tseng Dachuan says the Chinese language is not perfect but for Indigenous people. Maybe this is a common way to communicate with each other. But if we use the Indigenous writer, maybe they will charge in using Chinese logic. They use the mother tongue like Roman spelling or they use their cultural logic to present the story. So they also use the Chinese to tell the story. But we read it like Shaman. His sentence is very strange. Some scholars say it is a challenge to Chinese logic. And now we notice about the mother tongue literature. The government has a literary award for mother language. But it is difficult to do this because there are not a lot of people who could read and could write the mother tongue language. They talk it is okay but to write and have the Roman spelling is different. And maybe one tribe and different tribes have a different style to mark this. And maybe we have no audience to read this story. This is the main reason. So some writers try to use mother language to write. But maybe this is the tragedy to show their subjectivity immediately. We see this is the Roman spelling in the mother tongue. But if we consider the reader, the audience, maybe it will have enough communication with each other. So the indigenous writers use the Chinese language to describe their story until now. Although they have noticed they have to restart the mother tongue language. They have to do. But they think the literature of mother tongue maybe this goal has a long time to achieve this goal. And you said the Kuei Lei Hua. Yes, the writer is Chen Yaochang, a hand people. I think I will let this work in the Aboriginal literature. Because although he is very close to indigenous people, he is very close. But if we took this work to note it is indigenous literature, I think maybe it's not good. Because remember that John Baker noticed us. We have to identify the Aboriginal literature and indigenous literature. Although maybe we will have the danger in the identity. Maybe we have a danger in folk's identity. Even though we have to... If I want to translate the even of Danshe, I want to suggest Ba Dai not the Chen Yaochang. Yes, maybe if in my opinion I would like to choose Ba Dai with the Benin perspective to talk this story. Maybe you have a different choice. But I think the indigenous literature is not popular in Taiwan. It is myro literature. And myro literature shows any kind of literature having their politics. And they have their ambitions to do. Even the literature is so politics. In my opinion, I want to maybe more readers could notice this style, this literature. And the magical realism. Yes, it's a definition in my paper. Maybe we have no time to talk about this. Maybe I will show you later. But for now let's give a big round of applause.