 Okay, so I just yeah, okay, so look it again Perfect there you go You're welcome. Okay. Bye. Hey snow Okay, perfect. All right, so Mary Mara wants me to log into zoom to see if anyone's going to go there and redirect them here I hope I can open both at the same time Yeah, we can see That's weird Mary, can you hear us? I can hear you. Can you hear you can hear me? Yes? Yes, if you check your browser the one That open with Google meet should have a red dot Mm-hmm It's probably that you are not seeing the window with the Google meet window. Why do I fix that? so You're you well Mary, you're going to be a small box in a corner. Okay. All right Right, I can see everyone big, but I'm small in my corner. Okay, good. Right. Hi Momo. I Can't hear you You're a question so if you click that the gas like the gallery view you can check the way So in the gallery view. Okay, yeah, that's that's true so Presenting you once like someone shared a screen or Yeah So what do I need to do? If you click on the box that you're showing it's going to blow you up like the little box Just click on it and you'll you'll come to the phone. I don't need to be that blown up. Okay. I see how to do it So, thank you. You're welcome Momo I do need to tell you that I I invited a friend of mine to And I did not know that he would send the link to a friend of his who's a leader in the Taiwanese community in New York I've forgotten exactly who she is But I will make him introduce you to him as a penalty because I didn't realize that he was going to Extend the invitation, but I can only believe that's a good thing Well, look at all these faces Alex has a big smile on your face Long time no see five minutes ago And how do I see who else is on here? How do you can you advance the screen using us? How do you move to see what other thumbnails are there besides the nine of us? So, yeah, there's the three little dots in the corner if you click on that It's going to pop up a widget that says change layout and then click on change layout and you can select whatever you want More tiles exactly Okay, and then you can go back to full screen when you click on your tile And on the top it shows that currently we have 13 participants. There's a icon with two people and 13 the number on the corner Okay Hi Damon So now ask who is now recording this? What Damon was saying good evening. I was just saying good evening. Yeah Momo whoever let us in is recording so Okay typing Momo would you like to help the interview larger? Yeah, I mean you are the moderator I'll just pull you out for special mention Yeah, but I have to thank you because of this I have like a time to talk with her like like a couple times in between like or chat I'm so glad I just got an excuse Because of you thank you so much and like A month ago. He she sorry. She just took a like a tag talk Interview so any of you who are interested She explained it explicitly on that tech talk about all the like The digital transformation that he made She made during this period of time. So highly recommended just on that talk And you know Audrey time Tatum I'm st from Audrey's office. Uh, Audrey will be here in a couple of minutes Just say no, thank you Oh, she's a shouting. She's the one helping us to scale Joe Yeah, I can meet you guys Nice Momo, maybe you'll put the link in the chat for Audrey's Ted talk. Can you do that? Oh, yeah, I can give you the link Hi Joanna Hi, Risha Sorry to suggest you shouldn't be on the call before I was trying to save your time in retrospect. I missed you there We'll talk maybe as soon as you have a chance. Send me some good times and we'll we'll talk lots of exciting stuff Momo, uh, Audrey was okay with the format. So we'll go with the format that we have. Yeah Right Alexandra, we should try for a zoom sometime yes I couldn't figure out where the unmute That's pretty scary for me that would be I'm using zoom at work. So this one's uh, throw me out, but I found it So now we have 22 people eight 12 16 So those of you who are more familiar with this format, how do you find out where the other um thumbnails are hiding? Do you press to the right or below or what do you do? Snow, do you know how to do you see on your right app corner? There are two people icon with the number 24 if you click on that then it will provide the list to the right site Oh, thank you. But it will allow me to see their photographs. Oh, I just have to click on and see then, huh? Hmm. Okay. Thank you And if you're currently in the layout of the site uh sidebar The rest of people are little thumbnails to the right Okay, there's Audrey Looks like we may be ready to go Yeah, Audrey I I'm pretty sure you remember me from the innovation and change class But I'm the one who started off with you're my hero So I am so delighted that you could join us tonight really so excited and and what perfect timing I'm reading a book by Francis Moore lap on democracy And I think that now with the assault on transparency that we're seeing from the united states government where we can't even get Access to our covet information without having it whitewashed by the white house Could we have started our conversations of consequence with a more important speaker? Thank you so much So for those of you who don't know Audrey I'm going to let her Introduce herself because she can do that very well. Momo has put into the chat space a link to her most recent Ted talk the format tonight will be a 40 minute moderated Conversation Mary and Audrey that will amend that to be mostly Audrey talking because we have so much to learn from her I will actually flow the questions and we'll have 20 minutes at the end And chinos will keep us honest about that because I'm not very honest about that So we have 20 minutes for q&a at the end And Audrey would you like to start or may I start with this question? With this is our sample introduction Audrey we asked you to initiate this talk because in the next 40 quarters We want to move the world toward a more positive future Excuse me. Audrey has some technical problems. So she will they uh relink Later Seconds so sorry. Yeah. Okay. That's okay. Maria. Jose. Nice to see you. Roger. Nice to see you. I'm seeing everybody else I'm going to start again We asked Audrey to initiate this talk because we're on a mission mission 2030 What we want those un sustainable development goals to get met We have 40 quarters to move our world toward a more positive future Audrey is definitely moving our world toward a more Possible future. You're on a mission. Audrey. We're seeing that mission carried out in a country called Taiwan And congratulations on the way you handled covid over there and just about everything else Our understanding is that your mission is about using radical transparency to make better decisions and shape better futures And we would love you to speak to that Awesome. Um, so is this sound getting through? It is. Okay. That's great. That's great. Yeah, I just rejoined with um higher definition video and Hopefully that this will work. So, um, yeah, really happy to to be back to to re-engage in a conversation and this time with a covid Focus, um, and so I'll just skip the the prelude. I guess and and go straight into the the topic There's a saying that anything that we're born with is human nature and anything that Is introduced after we're born is technology And so for me personally democracy is definitely technology Because I was born in the martial law And I still remember how it was like to have no freedom of press of speech of assembly And so on And so we only had our first presidential election when I was 15 years old 1996 And that's after the wire web came about and so for us democracy internet not two things It's the same generation that the same kind of people working on it. And so that's why our democratic Intuitions is always that of the focus on finding common ground in internet culture And it's called rough consensus And creating common understanding not division And so, um, I think Taiwan really benefits from those early internet communities in the 80s and 90s In particular the bulletin board system culture, which is still very much active in taiwan And maintained by the social sector By national taiwan university, for example, is our largest reddit like forum the ptt They do not serve advertisers benefits. They do not serve Shareholders benefits rather is just a bunch of students having fun for a very long time for for 30 years and so We really benefit from that because it's one of the three pillars of the social innovation system that We collectively refer to as the taiwan model It's really easy to remember. The key words are fast fair and fun So, uh, the fun The the fast part which is a collective intelligence Relied on such kind of public forums So the collective intelligence, for example, upvoted a certain Whistleblowing from dr. Lee Wenliang last december that there are seven new SARS cases in the Wuhan Seafood market in the huanen seafood market. Uh, and so at exactly the same hour december 31 at 2 a.m Where dr. Lee Wenliang was being questioned by his institution. He would later face punishments from his police Institutions the same time the ptt board has somebody with the nickname no more pipe Reposting dr. Lee Wenliang's whistleblowing and our medical officers immediately noticed this upvote And issue an order that says all passengers flying in from Wuhan to taiwan need to start health inspections the very next day The first day of 2020 and so this says to me two things First of the civil society trust this public forum enough to talk about possible new SARS outbreaks in the public forum According to civicus monitor taiwan is the only completely open society In the whole of asia and if you count asia pacific then we and new zealand are the only two And so there's no fear of repercussions are being harmonized By talking about the scientific validity of dr. Lee Wenliang's whistleblowing And also the government trusts the citizens enough to take it seriously and treat it as if SARS has happened again Something we've always been preparing since 2003. That's the first segment. Yeah yes Mary from a very particular context Mary you're breaking you're breaking in and out Can you hear me? Yeah, jennos. Yes, we can hear you now. You're good. Can you hear me now? Yes, we can hear you're good I don't want to interrupt you because i'm really Please because it's just three pillars and done with the first Well, I think fast is so important you can see here in the united states We've been very slow to go on this one And part of it is because people do seem to the fear They fear punishment for speaking the truth. So just for everyone here, you know, if you can talk about democracy We can talk about transparency. We can talk about leading as if life matters But they're really just kind of heady concepts until you actually see in action How important it is to be fast and to trust That the people will give you the information that you need to make sound decisions So that's what we're trying to do in our learning community too. So so far ordinary fast is working How about the fair part? Yeah, I think so I would just add one more point to the to the fast part Because this is not just about the citizens contributing intelligence for the government to work with but also if the citizens see the government Have failings like we have no thought of something that this is not working. Well, it the feedback also has to be really fast So I'll use one concrete example So our central epidemic amongst lots of the ccc Starting from january for more than four months Host the press conference live streamed every day and they answered all the question from journalists Which is also live streamed. And so everybody with anything that they want to question Here they can call 1922 which is a landline And the immediate pickup rate of that line is more than 90 percent. So they can get all their fears and doubts Answered but sometimes they point out genuine failings. For example, there was one day in april When a young boy called and said that he doesn't want to go to school Because his schoolmates may laugh at him for wearing a pink medical mask And that's because when you ration medical mask, you don't get to pick the color And so it just so happens that all he gets is pink medical mask And so the very next day everybody in the ccc press conference, you're looking at our health minister And all the experts or the medical officers started wearing pink medical masks and The the commander cheng shijong even said that his childhood role model was the pink panther Anyway, so the idea is that making sure everybody learns about gender mainstream And suddenly the boy is now the most hip boy because only he wears the mask that the heroes wear And this kind of fast response also builds trust between the government and the civil society So it's it's not about trust as an after concept, but rather trustworthiness through this kind of radical accountability So is it kind of In the style of taiwanese reversal in taiwan ministers trust you and that's always where the minister cheng shijong has been responding to those innovations coming in from the civil society and so this 24 hour like my idea just becomes Public policy also helps very much in earning trustworthiness and which is also part of why fairness Is ensured by people looking at it in the kind of participatory Accountability and now I have to introduce this g0v Which is one of the movement that i'm heavily involved in so g0v as we talk a little bit last Conversation is a simple idea for each government website and services that the citizen doesn't like Instead of protesting they would just take a for example website join the g0v.tw Which is our participation platform 10 million or more users We will just change the o to a zero And build join the g0v.tw Which is a reimagined kind of shadow government that does the same thing as the original government website, but better Or at least could be better And so it's always open source and relinquishing the copyright and this is very important because then This is a paved the way of what we call reverse procurement When we ramped up the facial mask production making sure that everybody can use their National health insurance card to collect mask from nearby pharmacies Fairness was the guiding principle, but at the very beginning nobody know which pharmacies near them still have Mask in stock And so someone with the name Wu Zhang Wei Haowu in front. I'm just filled this map out of nowhere And shows the red which is the places with Low stock of masks green which is a place with the high Stock yellow something in between and it shows children's masks and adult masks And so it originally relied on people to report the queuing the masks level Voluntarily, of course as with any crowdsourced project this went viral have a high r value So people shared this tool and which cost how are we to oh google like 20 k us dollars in the first few hours In api usage fees and of course he had to take it down And then he went on to go zero slot channel asking, you know I'm driven bankrupt by this public interest tool that I just developed what to do And so quite a few engineers just hopped down and provided assistance And I'm one of the engineers on the go zero collective And I just showed how our Wu's map to our premier premier Su Junchang saying that we really need to support this social innovation And then because this guides people better than anything that we can do through the Livestream press conferences or 1922 and the premier saw the value and immediately said okay our national health insurance agency Need to publish in real time Open api not just open data publish every day or every week, but open api publish every 30 seconds that will makes that people with The health coverage which is more than 99.99 percent of citizen residents who show any symptom will then feel comfortable In finding the nearby pharmacy with mask take a medical mask go to local clinic Knowing for sure that they will get treated fairly and without incurring any financial or social burden And so this was wildly successful and immediately there's people with whiteness saying that we can't use the map And so but because this open api there's in the first week more than 100 different tools Not just map but also voice assistants chatbots and things like that making sure that anyone can feel inclusive in ensuring their fairness and I really have to emphasize our participatory accountability because if you go to this pharmacy Which has a 58 adult mask in store at a time And if you're adult And then you swipe your nhi card you expect in a couple minutes on your favorite tool That sees this deplete to 49 because the rationing quota is nine per two weeks for adults if you are a child you expect this number to deplete by 10 In a couple minutes on your favorite visualization tool So everybody instead of blindly trusting the government or the national health insurance agency trust the people doing before and after them To check the numbers and ensure that the system is actually working as intended This is the same principle as distributed ledgers. This is a kind of distributed ledger and so This also like any distributed ledger have people started analyzing it writing dashboards And visualizing the trends of supply and demand so that we can correct our supply and demand Curve by introducing better and more fair distribution policies, which we Change every week based on those people's analysis and they analyze it so that In particular municipality like Xinzhou or the Taipei cities where the Science parks are people really work very long hours. So after they went off work all the pharmacies close already So there's systemically around 20 percent of people who cannot easily get access by this methodology And so we had to work with convenience stores so that you can collect the through pre-ordering your Allotments 24 hours a day. And so you see So then our premier smiling happily because that's the day we started working with the convenience stores One month into the rationing in March And so and that this ensures fairness of all kinds right of people who work long hours short hours So at the end there's more than 90 percent of people who have Excess this rationing of mask very easily throughout the the epidemic and because Some like nine percent or less Didn't want to collect we we even ask what what they're thinking And so many of them said we have plenty of those at our house already So they didn't need the rationing And but they demanded since we asked nicely They demanded that we make a feature in the app of pre-ordering mask that they can dedicate their uncollected quota To international humanitarian aid to the doctors and nurses around the world Including in us and canada. And so we're like, yeah, why not? And so we implemented that and then the mass dedication dashboard, which is A public letter too for everybody to check at this right this moment There's more than 700 000 dedicators who dedicate a total of More than five million medical masks. So it's not just our foreign service donating masks to international Community, you can actually see the names including my name On the on the dashboard that contributes to the international Community and so all together Everybody feel that there's a fairness of initially between people Of different proximity to pharmacies and then people with different times to queue And then people with different work schedules and then between different parts of the world And so this extends fairness toward all kinds a kind of intersectional fairness principle So so audrey is actually moving into another question Which is we talk a lot about this internet of things But how do we create an internet of beings and I think the examples that she's given us are just so precise Because we're using technology in the service of life And in the service of the real needs of real people across a diverse spectrum of need And so congratulations and also being able to export it to those lesser developed countries like the united states We really appreciate all the help we can get right now So thank you for that I mean, I guess we're doing a couple of things right But when I listened to you're talking about and with the history of Taiwan It wasn't always so easy to do that. These are these are huge breakthroughs in terms of transparency Internet of being and using technology not as a toy, but actually as a tool to assist. So And we haven't even gotten to the fun yet. Audrey. That's right. That's right. Yeah Yeah, so um, I think you made a really really good point in that It's not always easy for the public sector for the administration to Kind of see technologies this way Which is why civic technologists is so important because the legitimacy is already established, right? And google even agreed to waive the api usage fees after they see that this is a Perfect moment for corporate social responsibility And business development, I guess and so when the social sector and the economic sector already Work on something with the social sector firmly in the lead It's much easier for the government to just say, okay We'll just you know, provide whatever data you need and deliver that as a open innovation Because if the government's idea then of course we have to convince the people But if this already a well accepted idea by the people then all we have to do is to ensure the system's sustainability And so this is what I call reverse procurement. Uh, which is more fast And also more fun, right? So let's move on to the fun part so So it's not just a pandemic, right every other Place in the world as well as taiwan is dealing with both the pandemic and infodemic That is to say conspiracy theories and people do feel anxious It is a stressful time a lot of panic buying conspiracy theories things like that But fortunately even before the pandemic we already are like heads deep neck deep Head deep at one point With infodemic and so we have a really good counter disinformation strategy and system already And it's also very easy to remember. Um, it's called humor over rumor. Um, and so The intuition very simply is that most conspiracy theories travel on outrage outrage being a potent Affect a potent emotion and have a high r-value on social media. Maybe three like on each outreach Message people on average will share to three people within the first hour And so the idea when there's a trending disinformation like this, uh, for example, and I quote There was a saying that said Because we're ramping up mass facial mass production is the same material as tissue papers So we're going to run out of tissue papers very soon unquote And so people just just rushed out to buy tissue papers And causing a lot of panic and that may actually cause more more damage than the pandemic itself In in taiwan at least And so we really have to counter it and our principle the triple two principle says that Within the first two hours, we have to roll out two pictures Each less than 200 characters long That's um, it's funny. It's more funny than the outrage That is to say having a higher r-value so that people will laugh at it and share it to more people Vaccinating the population and so the same premiere. You just saw smiling here in a convenience store Within, uh, I think the first hour after the panic buying roll out this gem of the internet meme And this is a him showing his backside Wiggling his bottom a little bit And says in very large font each of us only have one pair of botox And it's a wordplay because in mentoring, uh, botox twin sounds the same as stockpiling twin And so There's no point in stockpiling Because you can't use that much anyway And then a table a very serious table saying That the tissue paper material came from South America in its paper And the pp material that makes medical masks is domestic So no matter what we produce it will not interfere with uh tissue paper. So this is genius and this has a very high r-value And and people just share it. It is a very trendy internet meme at that point. Uh, and so, um, it went absolutely viral So within a couple days the panic buying of tissue papers just died down And then finally we found out the person who spread the rumor at the first place was a tissue paper reseller Go figure And so this is not a single shot right the premier did that all the time like, uh, after a while There was a panic buying of instant noodles, uh, and then he showed a equally funny meme and showing a large, uh amount of Instant noodles in stock and says that there's a lot please buy as much as you want And then the various county mayors and so on just replied from our agricultural Parts the more rural parts in taiwan just reply saying but eating instant noodles alone. It's not healthy You have to add some vegetables to it and they post a lot of vegetable pictures but in any case it just become like a like a very funny thing that you can join and um, scientifically speaking, it's impossible, uh, to feel at once on the same topic both outrage Enjoy, it's just not possible. Uh, so, uh, if you have watched the movie inside out, you know what I'm talking about So if we, um, color the the the topic, uh, fun already, uh, then people who have love about it It's literally unable to feel outrage and and they can't really share The conspiracy theories anymore And so that's why in each of our ministry, there's a team of people sometimes professional comedians That engages the public Just like, uh, there was traditionally media offices that talks to journalists Parliamentary offices that talks to the mps. We have participation offices that talks to hashtags And hashtags are harder to talk to right because there's no one single person representing a hashtag But you can engage the hashtag And so our participation officer from the ministry of health and welfare Have this brilliant idea of after each ccc press conference that introduces a scientific measure They just went back home Take a photo of the dog that lives with the officer And this spokesperson of the ccc says if you're outdoor, you have to keep two shiba inu away from each other If you're indoor you have to keep three dogs away from each other Very easy to remember And cover your mouth and nose when sneezing don't do what the dog does And uh, this is very important where a mask to protect you from your own dirty and washed hands And remember to pre-order those masks as well. And so this is a Incentive design, right? If you build mask as something that you protect others, it has a lower r value This idea is less worth writing for many individuals But if you say wear a mask to remind yourself that don't touch your own mouth with your unwashed hands This is very intuitive and has a very high r value It's easier to spread and that's how we make sure that Taiwanese people feel calm and collected Even during the pandemic and we never suffered a lockdown or a take down Of the pandemic and so this is the third pillar fun and a lot of more fun memes Including one recorded by our then vice president also textbook author of epidemiology can be found at taiwan can help that us Audrey, you know, you you've you've done quite a lot of work and thinking obviously I'm I'm really taken aback by the insight that outrage and joy cannot exist at the same time I mean it sounds very intuitive, but I'm wondering how How your team came up with this idea that outrage actually doesn't enable us As much as real engagement. How did how did that idea start to percolate in your team and and and who said, oh, that's crazy Or oh gee, that's really insightful. How did you test it because you know, you're kind of giving us the back end of the story It looks perfect, but where did it begin? Yeah, uh, well in the beginning we occupied apartment, but that's too far away right that's in 2014 But but but that's actually uh the case because at its time The mps were refusing to deliver a substantially the css ta the cross-strait servicing trade agreement And that is why it's so important for the people to take the parliament and basically Do the mps work? directly Because they were on strike so to speak and so um, yeah, thanks st for sharing the Slice that I just shared so the css ta protest is interesting in the sense that Even with half a million people on the street and many more online. There's No violence around the occupied parliament After the first couple days and nobody went missing or that because we left during everything We make sure that all the NGOs all the 20 different aspects one of them talking about whether we need to Really allow prc components in our then new 4g network Which is a debate that people are having right now, but we had that six years earlier And then the people on the street actually came to consensus Thanks to the deliberation technologies that facilitate us And convinced for example our national communication commission at that time There really is no private sector company period in the prc Everything is state owned actually is just a matter of whether they want to change the leadership or not of large companies And so the point here is that if the people on the street have a first hand experience of how it's like To come to rough consensus come on understanding Shared values among different positions then they would not set over less So at the end of that year all the mayors that supported open government gets elected sometime without preparing Orientation speech and all the mayors that did not did not get elected So open government is that one of the rare things that all the four major parties in our parliament agrees on They just signed the open parliament Agreement and yesterday So in my team then is around 20 people at this permanent staff 30 or so people every year as interns, but the 20 people is Half of them are secondments from different ministries Half of them are experts from the civil societies most of them Social innovators and occupiers And so it's a very strange office with with very different Idea escape biodiversity because my HR policy is that if you want to join Of course, if you're a career public service, then you have to convince your minister But otherwise the volunteers have to a add a new perspective like coming from a different background compared to every other staff and be Willing to give as much at least as much as they take So people who are secondments in my office still work for their ministries agenda the ministry still pay them salary I don't give give them orders nor do I take orders, of course All I ask is that they work out loud That is to say willing to share the best practice or better practices with every other secondment And that applies equally and so we run this Peter's the public digital innovation space Is a very much at Hocker see people just think of a great idea Managed to convince one or two fellow secondments or experts and they just go and make it happen And all we do is to have lunch every week and enjoy some recreational activities like ordering lunch boxes together and so on In our virtual work spaces is very much like an internal startup And that's how we brainstorm all those ideas and my role is mostly just to order pizza clean up the room fix server errors Or just you know making sure that the space works properly and if it all goes wrong if any good idea Eventually gets implemented very badly Whereas all my fault that is literally my only role I think you ought to write that up as the new definition of leadership order pizza clean up the room And it'll be all your fault when it's over anyway, so just enjoy it You go that's that's a brilliant piece of leadership information. I've ever heard. Thank you very much So now to the tough question as you know in the world transparency is not exactly trending I mean it may be trending with feet on the street But it's not exactly trending across the governments of the world Is it any thoughts about that any ideas about how all of us might enable our governments to be fast fair and more fun Right, um, you know to to paraphrase the saying like don't hate the media be the media I guess the gov zero saying could be you know, don't hate the government be the government And and and literally I mean the the call to action of the gov zero movement is to fork the government Very careful pronunciation fork the government, right? So uh forking in computer science means that taking something not destroying it But taking it to a different direction showing different imagination The mask mob was built upon the previous contributions of the air mob Which is thousands of people now tens of thousands now Using very inexpensive like less than 100 us dollars each micro sensors To measure the air quality like to p.m. 2.5 Across taiwan so and actually across the world because it's open innovation, right open hardware and software And so this creates a a huge kind of legitimacy Crisis for our environmental minister at a time because they only has less than 100 weather stations But the people have thousands or tens of thousands So who are you going to trust is the primary school? balcony Of probably your children's school Just a few meters a few couple Kilometers at most from you or is it a few hundred kilometers from you this very precise weather station Of course, you're going to trust your community And so if those numbers differ it creates a lot of pressure on the environment minister And so that is my my recommendation just you know be the fast fair and fun governance system There's a lot of technologies That's the commons stack So to speak can help people to build such a data commons And once people in primary schools learn data stewardship that is about competency producing data and media Rather than literacy consuming data and media then they are empowered to really negotiate with the government as the taiwanese Airbox communities did they specifically said There's some industrial areas that are gaps that we cannot break and enter and install our airboxes But we suspect them for polluting the air And the industry is in there says we do nothing of that sort, but who whose Words is right. Nobody knows and so the environmental minister eventually said okay. Okay. We will work with your micro Sensors we will even calibrate That so it works in higher humidity levels And we agree to look at the industrial parks and it turns out that we own the lamp the public sector on the lamp in the industrial parks So we just install their design their micro weather stations on the Lamps that shows everybody that really the industries are or are not contributing to air pollution And so again, this is reverse procurement is the social center Building legitimacy without waiting for anyone working on technologies that are enabling and are appropriate And then the economic sector feeling the pressure produces You know less expensive Kids that that can enable this kind of work and then they together convince the public sector that you need to work with us Actually after us not just for us So instead of for the people the government is constantly pressured by this outside game to work with the people and eventually After the people but of course in other parts of the world It's a win already if you can get your municipality to work with the people at the beginning Yeah, I think it's more and more a challenge You know i'm a dedicated believer and all things american except all the terrible things we do and it is you know quite a moment to be in this country where People power doesn't seem to be having much of an impact young people are shot in the face Older people are beaten up just because they're using their first so-called first amendment rights to actually Attempt to make government more accountable and more transparent this way I'm so glad that you're speaking with us tonight, and I know you're speaking from afar literally and figuratively Do you see something happening worldwide? That is a reason to believe that governments will begin to really respect the needs of their people And you went mute Audrey. That's not allowed. That was a really tough question. Yeah Okay. Yeah, so yeah, I'm speaking from the future quite literally So it's Wednesday here. So anyway, so at the point I'm trying to make from the future is that It's not about people Convincing the government to to be more transparent or I would argue more importantly to be more accountable In from the history we we see that no matter its climate change Whether it is the infodamic Whether it's the pandemic and so on it all relies on what I refer to as a kind of societal inoculation So Taiwan didn't perform that that well during SARS in 2003 And we had to lock down an entire hospital unannounced And people, you know, even jumped out from that hospital. It was very traumatic for everyone who's above 30 years old We decided that 37 people dead directly because of SARS is 37 people too many And and that's why our desk told is throughout the SARS 2.0, which is COVID-19 Is always in the single digits. This is psychologically important for us And so I think because of that then people generally agree that even if the government was pretty incompetent at least the municipal and the central government were saying very different things during SARS that is not a Cause for despair that is not the cause for for distress rather people would build social sector organizations and Such as the large charities That's organized right after the earthquake and right after each major typhoon and so on to Take the matter to their own hands so to speak and and this has paid real dividends Even now if Taiwan has a really large flood people are going to trust the Disaster numbers reported by the city foundation. Many people would do that more than our ministry of Transportation, which is the head of the weather bureau. Momo is nodding. So I'm not making this up So so those those large not-for-profit Charities really gained legitimacy throughout each and every crisis And so they eventually and that's the outside game that I'm referring to Make sure that the government can take the organizational structure such as the central epidemic amongst and so from the social sector As the thing to do and so without waiting for the right leader or things like that It creates a political atmosphere of nonviolent Communication that just like occupying the parliament non violently Leaves the the decision makers no other choice, but then You know working with the occupiers and that's how I was invited in as a reverse mentor anyway And and so I would say keep working on those hashtags. Those are really important That's the most important organizational technique technology that we can work with now And expand the hashtags so that it's fast. It's fair and it's fun and eventually You know, there's a crack in everything and that's that's how the light gets in that's where the light gets in I love your Leonard Cohen. Thank you very much for that reminder. It's beautiful. Yeah, there. That's how the light gets in Can I this question wasn't on the script? So please feel free to not answer it and then we'll turn it over to everybody else to ask questions Time one is an island nation. Yes fair enough to say that and you're very subject to climate crisis How are these systems of more accountable and more transparent governance working To help Taiwan deal with not climate change but climate crisis Yeah, here we we call it the climate emergency, but I think it's exactly the same idea So I will not quibble on words like whether it's an emergency a crisis or Something even more a radical apocalypse or things like that, but it's serious that that's the point and so I think this can be answered in two different prompts One is about the internet of beings which is part of my job description. Actually The internet of beings is a a simple idea really it's um as is most intuitive is just give rivers Oceans mountains personhood as we did For corporates like corporate legal non-fiction personhood And and this is actually already implemented in some indigenous Areas and not just taiwan new zealand also made the wanarui river a Person and so that they can have a seat at a table a seat at a board and then make votes And sue for damage if the river suffers damage And so this is very important because otherwise the environment doesn't vote and the people who are at a business end of the climate crisis Is here to be born and they don't have those either And so it's important that the future generations and the environment in general have a way to kind of reflect the feelings It's weird to use the word feelings. But if you have watched the movie avatar, you know what i'm talking about that the feelings into The decision-making procedure by having like in new zealand is one person from the indigenous nation the Maori And and went from the the crown to speak like the speakers of the trees and of the rivers and so this kind of Understanding can only be built with this collective sense making community like I just shared with the air box The same bunch of people through presidential hackathon is now working on a water box also Which is putting a voice to to rivers right through mbiot zero g technology that reports pollution levels continuously And and like that and so this kind of environmental collective data collisions and collaboratives Can put a voice to the environment and eventually realize this natural person who And it's also helped by our transitional justice Work with the indigenous nations because they see the highest mountain in taiwan saviyah or the jade mountain Also pentagon. I keep you know learning this different in the indigenous names They they See them as a person already a spirit an ancient spirit And so we really need to learn from the indigenous People's culture in a transcultural way to incorporate this holistic view Into our decision-making our democracy this procedure. So that's the first thing and the second thing is more mundane, right? This is just about carbon pricing carbon trading the green energy You know Certificates that can be sold on an open market the taiwan semiconductor company the tsmc Not only build one of the largest arrays of solar panels, but also work directly with the wind power people To procure green energy and so on and so this is just market design The market design is also important because the market is one of the easier way to spread ideas across So if you price carbons, um, correctly, uh, so people would work on circular economy Moving from a production model to a rental model much more easily if most of those environmental externalities are appropriately priced and our very vibrant fintech space with DeFi this decentralized finance and so on are already doing so without waiting for the taiwan power company or things like that There's at least three different distributor teams that just pitched to me in the past months or so I'm building a carbon trade market and visualization and the related Plannings are using ethereum and other ledger technologies that will build Familiarity at least and hopefully legitimacy that would also pressure the larger companies to change So that's the more mundane more market driven way Thank you. Audrey. I want to be sure that as per your mission and mine we include voices So at this point, I'd like to open it up to any questions or comments or any thoughts That you would like to share with Audrey And we have one from snow snow. You can you can speak you're unmuted, right? So Yes, um, I have a question that to what degree do you see the principle of? fast fair and fun influence by the size of the government or enterprises Uh, sometimes big organizations are good not good at listening is simply because the the structure and hierarchical setting and are there any ways that we can address that or improve the data processing so that we can improve that experience Yeah, this is a really good question and thank you for typing it out And so on the chapter and my encourage people do that. Um, and so, um In a very beginning, right if you only have Like as I said 20 people in a startup as in the case of pedis It hierarchy doesn't make sense, right? It's just, you know, people who have fun together literally and Just share music and laughter and work with our interns including momo Right and even if we may be quite distanced in different time zones. We just party all the time and so there's no need to To introduce hierarchy, but of course because numbers numbers and all if there's more than 150 people Then you have to introduce some sort of weak links and weak links include Of course commanding relationships, which makes it a hierarchy or hashtags, which is not hierarchy But of course hashtags came later So most larger organizations chose not hashtags but rather taxonomy like a tree structure in in japan the The large corporations are literally called a tree like corporation brain with branches and and things like that and Precisely because of this but once it grows to a certain size The hierarchies itself become unmanageable like because in our mind We can only hold like seven plus or minus two things if you have more than nine levels of hierarchy Nobody can hold that hierarchical branch in mind. And so we would be at peak hierarchy at that time So once you reach peak hierarchy like peak oil It suddenly hashtags makes much more sense because the hierarchies just keep adding the management overhead without delivering any Motivation or efficiency because people can't keep the hierarchy in their head. Anyway, and and then people will be attracted to hashtags And so I think there's a dialectic here in a very small and in a very large Horizontalism always makes more sense. But in the middle Sometimes hierarchy can seem more effective. And so we can do two things, right? We can Make sure that the grassroots level Are accountable to each other They prove to the larger environment that they can very much well take care of their own purposes Without having to resort to hierarchies This is why the open collective movements the platform cooperative movement and so on are working to improve and they have now successfully scaled to the thousands or tens of thousands level and and that's a really good thing and then On the worldwide like with pandemic people in different time zones are now discovering that we're on the same spaceship Anyway, that we have to work with the same urgency. Anyway No matter if you're a island nation or a continental Like continental people may feel like climate change. It's not the crisis. It's two generations down the line, right? but With pandemic it's everybody's just two months away from each other. So once you feel this High solidarity Then you wouldn't Rely on traditional hierarchies in the past months or so. I saw a lot of different jurisdictions High-level medical offices, which previously would not Join videoconference because they were I guess older and distrust video conference because they had bad experiences in their youth But now they're discovering that this is actually working really well and video conferences like this Hangout this google me that we're having Is a really good flat non hierarchical way of talking about things because instead of arranging seats so that you have the chair the members the observers the intruders Everybody just have the same amount of square in this mode of like people just looking into a mirror together and and that is also a great Flatten so to speak and so I think We can approach it from the very large scale by working on global problems And also working on the smaller scale by working on cooperatives and collectives Thank you. Audre and richa has a question richa. You can say it and and audre can also read it Audrey so thank you for this really fascinating talk. I mean it is just Incredible and I'm so glad that I got to hear you speak So you've shared a lot of success stories and I think we have in the u.s. Have a lot to warn. I mean we are as mary's pointed out. We are really struggling over here I'm wondering if you can also share like what are the challenges of running this very open form of government What are some of your failures and what are What about cyber security and privacy concerns because in the digital transformation space? Those are those are very Yeah, definitely. Um, so, uh, first of all, yeah, the taiwan can help that us Website can also be read as taiwan can help that us So feel free to check out the taiwan model and how it can help that us Anyway, and and and the fun thing here is that This is not even built by the taiwan government. This is literally built by like 20 000 people crowdfunding A certain newer times advertisement That that talks about, you know, who can help how it can help And it's just that our foreign service after looking at this website Decided that we can't do anything as creative as this one. So this just became our foreign service That the go-to website, but we have no control over this this website Right. So and this shows, um Radical trust, right? Uh, we trust the citizens to to, um, make essentially our diplomatic corp Talking points, uh, and uh, go zero to come up with those innovative structures And so if it's social sector led Then the privacy concerns are always, uh, more easily ameliorated Because the social sector are a bunch of people that can join and leave at any given time because there's no inherent Black boxes in the large amount of hierarchies because it's flat It's much easier for people to see that this doesn't collect any undue, uh, data that this works precisely only with masks and Mask can't claim for privacy And that if you're dedicated in the mask, you can choose to attach your name on it But even if you do it just collect the date but not the time and you're uncollected mass quota And so this is very limited information probably cannot be used to provide you in a in a meaningful way And so on so when it's a citizen initiative when we're just doing reverse procurement privacy concerns are Not that large but I will not pretend that there is no privacy concerns in taiwan if you're returning to taiwan You have to go through 14 days of quarantine nowadays We shorten it to five if you come from a particularly safe place like new zealand But uh in general it's 14 days Now you can choose to go to a quarantine hotel. Uh, that's how we ensure our Uh luxury international hotels to operate during the pandemic Prepare for sending to quarantine hotels. You can go to this very luxurious hotel And then we pay you a stipend. Actually it's 33 us dollars every day to thank you for your work But if you break the quarantine then it's 1000 times that as a fine So you can support 1000 more people quarantining I guess but in any case People do the rational thing and they they don't break out of the 14 day quarantine So of course is the limitation on the freedom of movement for all the returning visitors But it's applied in a very fair fashion and people understand the science behind it So there's some grumbling but not a lot of grumbling. Um, and some people prefer not to stay a hotel They prefer to stay at home. They say, oh, I don't live with any vulnerable group of people I have my own bathroom and things like that and maybe they are right It's better for their mental health if they stay there 14 days in their own home But then how do we make sure that they they're not breaking out of the quarantine and the hotel We can do this physically by controlling the elevator But in your own home the elevator is is is yours. So I said, so how do we know? And so we came with this idea of the digital fence Basically, we give you a phone or if you have a phone you register it to us And then we make sure that the telephone Signals measured by the nearby telecom towers, which they are already collecting anyway It's triangulated so that if you break out of the triangulation perimeter around 15 meters at most It's not gps. It's not an app that you install Then there's a automated SMS sent from your cell phone provider to the local police station Who will then ensure that you are not breaking away checking where you're aware about This applied also if your phone runs out of battery. So this is basically a gambling On the fact that people are addicted to their phones now, which is pretty good. Um, yeah, I'll bet on that. So anyway So people are addicted to their phones and and so And and of course there's random calls and chatbots to ensure that you're feeling well And if you're not then there's a lot of like counseling help and things like that And we also pay your stipends. But of course that raises privacy concerns, right? This is essentially Tracking you're aware about even with a bad resolution like 15 meter We don't know which one you're in it is a privacy infringement. It's a deep narrow defined privacy infringement And so our constitutional courts right after sauce say that anything that's better than a lockdown of the entire hospital Should be pursued and because we never declare an emergency situation. Um, so this was legal And we operate within the constitutional limits, but still there's people who are very much wary about this And so they're like, you know, um What what if people track me after the 14 day quarantine will by be labeled as someone who's infected Will I be dissociated from my community? Become a pariah or things like that And so the ccc life press conference in 192 to play a very large part in this in calming people's doubts and to adamantly refuse to publish the travel histories of confirmed cases And so that people will feel comfortable in reporting their symptoms and so on. So there's a lot of risk resistance in the ccc About this demand from the public to publish the travel history as South Korea used to do But we end up not doing that and I would argue that protects people's feelings much more. Uh, and so I of course want to thank the Like 9% of people at one point who say that they're not comfortable with the digital fans Even though 91% of people said they're comfortable because that's that's what the liberal democracy are right? They keep us accountable We have to provide the explanations to the mp's and to the general public and based on the polls We know that once we publish that the whole white paper of how this works Only 6% of people disagree with that then but we still thank those 6% of people And so there's a lot of privacy concerns that's for sure But it's built upon a culture where white hat hackers the cyber security experts just voluntarily Penetrated system and tell us how they did it and that they can do purple teaming That is to say teach the blue team the defense team how they think because they think like artists very creative And we ensure that there's five to seven percent of our ict budget that constantly goes to cyber security To foster this kind of culture so that if you're a white hat Hacker a security researcher in taiwan you get paid very well You meet with the president and minister all the time We celebrate your like second place in the international DEF CON CTF Lost only to the us team. Maybe we win this year Wait, there's no this year, but next year like tokyo olympics And anyway, so so the point here is that people are paid well treated well as cyber security researchers working for the Light site so they don't fall to the dark side which always have more cookies Thank you Thank you. Audrey just anyone else have a question It would be the final question because I want to be very respectful of audrey's time She's got a world to save so uh, we need to be But we do too So any questions any thoughts because otherwise i'm i've got one more question. I'm just going to ask it But I won't Anybody Okay, I don't see another question. Does anybody see a question? So audrey. Here's the question. Um How about how about black hat hackers? How how How do you secure this beautiful and brilliant idea? From the menace that is the other side of human beings who are fully dimensional in every regard and You know, there are a lot of people who would like access to data for all the wrong reasons. Are there any issues in terms of that? Yeah, definitely, uh, and so um, I can answer it from from two sides The the citizen side and the institutional side um, the citizen side Nowadays because of the pandemic Uh, people understand how important it is to wash your hands with soap Uh, and so being the most important chemical technology Um plays a larger role than any digital technology And so as so much so that we say you wear a mask to remind yourself to use soap And so this is important as in the cyber security, right? Choose a strong password. Don't only rely on a password use multiple factors. Um, um, encrypt The end to end encrypt the connections use trustworthy, uh, web devices and Try not to download and install any web conferencing software instead rely on the browser as we're doing now And and these are just layers and layers of protections Each may be cutting the attack vector only by a little bit But if you do all of it as taiwan did, uh, then, uh, the social engineer, uh, black haired have a much harder time because people just have better habits So there's so that's the the first thing And, uh, of course, it's important to just ingrain that in the education in the k212 curriculum as well And and on the institutional side, um, the answer is actually quite simple Just don't store private information period. Uh, so, so, um, for example, when we're we're currently, uh, in Firmly in post pandemic. So there's a huge amount of, um, stimulus packages Now being designed and being claimed, uh, for example, um, the triple stimulus voucher, uh, says that if you spent $3,000 np, um anywhere in taiwan, but you have to go outdoor to do that to know, uh, uber eats But, uh, uh, anything that you go outdoor and and and spend, uh, if you spend $3,080, then after a week You can, uh, withdraw, uh, 2000 of that back from a nearby friendly automated telemachine And so, um, it's it's a interesting design of the stimulus coupon and package, uh, and people enroll on that a lot But we make sure that when the participating banks, the atms, the machines and the illustration is the one Do so in a decentralized mono. You don't have to go to the centralized website to register. Rather, you go to various different banks Um, these different banks and you they don't share your credit cards, um, purchasing history We don't know which goods you you purchased Even your national id numbers are not shared between the atms on one side, uh, and your, uh, debit card, uh, bank on the other Rather, uh, we use a one time hash, uh, we we get a thought which is a random number And then we add it, uh, to the id number and we only share those one time use tokens and we throw away those, um, afterwards so, uh, based on the principle of secure multi-party computation, uh, zero knowledge, uh, range proofs and other proofs, um, fully homomorphic encryption on federated learning, uh, on differential privacy these are just like the building blocks of, uh, how we can Determine, uh, the, uh, statistics together without any, uh, party sharing any raw data or even keeping any raw data So at rest, uh, these data are not useful Even if the black hacker gets into the data storage and if you design your information systems with such, uh, privacy enhancing technologies In mind, then, uh, the black hacks. There's only so much they can do. Um, and so, um, yeah We, we learned a lot from ethereum, uh, from bitcoin and other decentralized communities with robustness principle very important And if you can take over ethereum, uh, through black hacking Someone would have already done that because it's very lucrative. Uh, but the fact that it has to the test of time, uh, right It's battle tested said that there's something to be said about using the right cryptographic, uh, Premises, uh, to build your information system So the pete's even the most expensive one like full, uh, homomorphic encryption are becoming more accessible And we may show that people researchers, but also practitioners have easy access, uh, to the national, uh, center of high speed computation cloud The nchc cloud, which is the top 20 supercomputer in the world top 10 if you count inner energy efficiency And that they can make such calculations to protect the anonymity and privacy as a norm when building new systems Thank you so much, Audrey and it's fitting that we're I think we're going to close with momo because Really, we began with momo who I called and said is there any chance in the world that you know this person and she said Yes, I do So momo actually our alumni was the alumna was the person who actually made it possible for Audrey to come to us So sure momo you get the last words, please Yeah, thank you everyone. Thank you, Audrey and Mary you two are definitely like my very like important, um People in my life to change me to for me to who I am today So I just want to share a couple things I haven't seen from other leaders particularly from the government side from But I did see on Audrey because Uh big day before I I went to path. I was an entrepreneur in Taiwan I have great chance to work with Audrey as a representative from the Found a nonprofit organization so um and you can see what she did is like Uh, whenever you work with her you feel it felt like you're being heard That's something I also get from Mary's world. That's the one of the key leadership I just learned from both of you and On top of that is not just being heard Actually she meant the progress even though it's just it could be slow sometimes It's not easy to make everything so there are so many things to do But at least she kept like it transparent you will see a like progress bar from the Taiwan can help kind of a website so you can Just have feedback and like track on it and Secondly, they give you the government then give you choices not many government will do that for you Most of the time you get orders at administration or the illa luck drum or not. It's just an order. You can see a month America different states. They have the orders whether it's It's like people you are not being considerate You're like you just follow a rule by what the government says, but here what are you seeing from argy even though the maps the maps No, all those api government provide resources and information and keep this transparent as it could be then you make the call as a person You make the decision on your own then you take fully responsibility on top of it Which being said so you can choose where masculine not but if you do it Here's your benefit is to find your again. It's not just like we just follow what trump say we just follow what government Andrew promos say it's all about This is what you can do. You cannot do you can you do this? Here's the consequences you have to take on your own. So you made a call you take that response basically I think that's one of the best thing as a human being You it's it's so easy to make that call, right? Just like where's the benefit of my wearing masks? It's not about I vote for trump or not It's about your healthy considerations So this is something I feel and I see it's very valuable and I haven't seen in many a government especially for those like old like nations like Developed countries and it's just I don't know sometimes even it's democracy But it's really hard to to have that kind of feeling And secondly it's about so I will call it the first these that designed by heart Like I feel he's the human being the human Human hood he just said Early and secondly I will call it like the design by heart Or does not have the one have that empathy to feel about people to Be considerable. It's more than that. She is completely like incredibly intelligent in many ways because she studied a lot and she joined a lot of communities like in in Academic world like us. It's easy. It's quite easy. We just have to call with many different kind of leadership from different sectors, but it's really hard for the government And like senators or the leaders to have that kind of things that there are a lot of Undertable in the negotiations whereas you can see all of them join a lot of non-profit organization She's quite active among these organizations. And what's great about it is like we can follow her She shared what she studied the book. She studied the recently By the way, the radical mugs awesome. I highly recommend all of you. It's about the next generation the design and Sometimes you can join about zero as well and join some of the hacks. So and you might see Audrey there That's the way I see her mostly Like outside of the government But she took that and and and kind of implemented into our government side. So I think that's the Another thing I see she is not just designed by her but also designed by her. That's something I would see particularly in these kind of period of time Well, the future leaderships is definitely I just keep it on my notes. I just Validated it again today that these two things I would definitely To recommend you and like sure with you that's my thumb and thank you again Audrey and Mary Yeah I'm not even going to attempt to do better than Momo because That's very artfully said and very true. You have direct experience of working with Audrey And so the only thing I will add Audrey is you won't escape Because we're just going to keep coming back for more Audrey. I'm sorry. We'll go through Momo. We'll be respectful of your time Thank you to ST for all the help, but We're not going to let you go Yeah, I'll be back Thank you until the next time uh live long and prosper Thank you. May the forces all of them stay with you. Thank you. Bye Bye Thank you. Momo. Thank you. Momo