 Salam, you're watching NewsClick. Since 1964, the United National Liberation Front has maintained an active insurgency in India's northeast with the stated aim of creating a sovereign socialist Manipur. At the peak of the insurgency, the Manipur People's Army, the UNLF's armed wing, had as many as 2,000 armed and trained militants based in camps in and around the Indo-Myanmar border. As far as the union of India is concerned, the outfit, along with other valley-based insurgent groups, such as the PLA, remained banned. The day after Manipur's current chief minister, N. Biren Singh, feigned resignation in a series of events that political analysts have summarized as pure political theater, NewsClick had the opportunity to sit down in Imphal with former chairman of the UNLF, R. K. Megan, or Sana Yaima, as he's popularly known. Megan is a well-respected figure in the Mehtai community, which is the dominant group in the state. He spoke to us on a range of issues, from the idea of the Mehtai demand for scheduled tribe status to the failures of the right-wing government in power in both the state and the center. This is part of NewsClick's coverage of the conflict in Manipur from the ground, where we were since the 7th of June. As-salam, the day after what we are being told was the playing out of well-scripted political theater in the Manipuri capital, Imphal. We have the opportunity to sit down with Megan, the former chairman of the UNLF, a social activist now and a prominent figure in Mehtai society. We'll be talking about the genesis of the current conflict, of course, and also what he thinks is the political responsibility of the present establishment in the start of this conflict as well as what role the government of N. Biren Singh and the government of India need to play in a political solution. In what he believes is the idea of an integrated and an inclusive Manipur. In that sense, so thank you for talking to NewsClick. Let's begin with the ST demand, which at least from one side is being viewed as the starting point, the reason for all those tens of thousands of people to have gathered in the peace ground at Chorchankur on the 3rd of May in that solidarity rally organized by the Atsum. As a Mehtai yourself, as someone who has been militant politically has had a strong stance on all issues concerning Manipur as well as broader political issues and economic issues, how do you view the ST demand from the Mehtai side? Before I answer to your question, I must tell you that the Mehtis being in about, settling in about just about six, seven percent of the land area, nine percent, but actually the space the Mehtis is about not even five percent. The Mehtis, at one time, they were the major community in the valley, in the whole of Manipur. Now it is, it has weakened, there is one point and the constriction of the species in the small valley is another factor, another grievances of the Mehtis that some section of Mehtis thought that becoming a civil tribe and the constitutional civil tribe list is a solution. I must say that the grievances of the Mehtis being a very small space constricted and finding it difficult to sustain life in the valley is very genuine because our brothers in the civil tribe list, they have enjoyed the status of civil tribe, the quota system and all. So the youngest generations of the Mehtis, they feel that they are being left out. So it is basically a middle class perspective that Mehtis must be in the civil tribe list of the Indian constitution. But from my perspective, I will say their grievances are very genuine, absolutely. So there must be a constitutional solution to the grievances of the Mehtis. But in my perception, to be listed in the civil tribe is not the solution because it is about Mehtis, inclusive Mehtis becoming exclusive. Mehtis have all along been inclusive because they are the people, the community, who took the maximum responsibility in building the land called Manip, just a multi-ethnic mosaic, about 35 ethnic groups coexisting and consolidating it into a sort of state structure. It's not a joke, though very small. So the Mehtis cannot afford to be exclusive, so narrowly divided. So the real solution lies that Mehtis should remain inclusive, talk to other communities and find a common solution that all of the communities can coexist interdependently. And I think there's no room for such a solution in the present Indian constitution. Indian constitution need to be amended so that it can resolve the Manipul situation. I mean, the government, the thing in terms of you know, stitching yourself according to your body, to fit your body, not to slice out the body to fit yourself, isn't it? This is the situation. So the sexual people demanding, Mehtis people demanding to be included in the settled tribe list, it has irritated other tribal community, particularly the cookies. They felt that the Mehtis are encroaching upon their space being tribals. So they use this demand for settled tribe to you know, emotionally chance the younger cookies. That is one thing. So as I said, once again I want to repeat that inclusiveness is actually the nature of Mehtis. So it remains so so that all of the communities, all the communities can coexist peacefully, interdependently, and the idea of Manipul can flourish. That's it. Since this situation developed, well, the first one week I was observing the situation. And after that, this went stories and news of the human tragedy coming out from Churasanpur, Mori, Torbong and other places. Then I started going around places meeting the victims of the violence and seeing the condition in the relief camps and interacting with the victims themselves also. Touching stories, I got to know. And then I began to think about the whole thing, why this is happening, which should not have happened at all. In the first place, the root causes of the conflict, rather the violence from the cookie side. I must tell you that almost all the cookie leaders, organizations in the suspension operations, they are known to be and we had quite good relations before when I was chairman of the UNLF. So I was... You used to be based in the same region and interact quite frequently. Very much. And we had some political understanding also. But then I couldn't make out why this is happening. Because in the history of Manipur, cookies, arm cookies, attacking the Maitis in such a scale, has not happened before. It's unthinkable. So the big question is why this time? First, as you may be aware, the migration of cookies from the Marma side into Manipur began in the middle of 18th century, say about 1740-41. Then some sort of systematic import of cookies into Manipur began during the British period. So that cookies, they are, I mean, for helping the British administrations as they are testing sort of force. But those cookies, those generations of cookies, they are different in their outlook, in their conduct and their relationship with Maitis. And we also have accepted them as natives of Manipur. But the problem began when, in the late 90s, in the wake of the Naga Cookie conflict, migration of Burmese cookies or Manmaris cookies into Manipur began in large numbers, illegal migration, I mean. As you know, there is an international border. And anybody crossing on either side of the border must do so with necessary travel documents. But in this border area, there is no such thing. And the cookies on the Manipur side, cookies in groups, I mean, and those in the chin hills of the border, that side, I mean, they are Keith and Keane. That is very right. But even if so, even if they are Keith and Keane, there is an international border, recognized international border, reliant. So once one crosses the border to the other side, he is a foreigner there, isn't he? But this aspect of the border management was never done in the long years. And it is accumulation of that negligence, or rather, whether it is deliberate or not, that is another question. But not doing so, not mending the border as it should have been done, it has contributed to the present conflict because cookies, they claim, they are also indigenous people of Manipur. So by claiming so, their ethnic identity, they now try to express that ethnic identity into territorial identity. The problem begins there. Exclusive ethnic identity trying to assert in a specific territorial area. And if that area happens to overlap with other ethnicities, the conflict is there. So now the Maitreya and Nagas strongly react to that. The Maitreya and Nagas say, only the Maitreya and Nagas are the indigenous people of Manipur. So this is actually the, but since, you know, as per, I suppose, if we go by the government of India, or there are then many sort of ethnicities, tribes that are considered to be of Manipur and living in Manipur and have rights that are determined by the constitution. So maybe we can start off or proceed by first trying to understand what is, in that sense, your idea of Manipur. And how do you look at it? Who are the people, like, is it an inclusive idea, or is it a land that belongs to certain people? How does that fit in with you? Well, my idea of Manipur is Manipur is a land all for those people who have settled here for long, long time, whether you call them original settlers or indigenous or whatever. But we have also accepted the earlier cookies as natives of Manipur. And this Manipur is not based on any religious identity. All ethnic groups should coexist and co-develop. That is Manipur. And all must respect one another's distinctive identity. At the same time, they must also promote a larger collective identity so that they can create a new culture of coexistence. That's my idea of Manipur, inclusive very much. But then when others say, for example, cookie, say cookie for cookies, that is very exclusive. And that exclusive ideology or political ideology comes into conflict with inclusive ideology. But even so, we have always tried to coexist with all the communities, ethnic communities, and Manipur. That was why the Maytees, though being in the very small distinct, maybe about 6% or 7% of the total land area of Manipur, they are the people who took the most, you know, distinct share of responsibility in creating the land called Manipur. Of share, you may say, external vision like the manma, the bomb is dead in the second half of, I mean, the second decade of 18th and 19th century. That is how the land Manipur began to be consolidated and developed. But then, Maytees, while taking care of them as a people, they cannot afford to be exclusive because they are the one who must sacrifice the most so that the idea of Manipur does not break up. So when we say the integrative Manipur, that entails the special responsibility of the Maytees. And if the Maytees fail to take this responsibility, then the idea of Manipur disintegrates. It is my concept of Manipur. So not just a territorial concept in that sense, but in all aspects, whether it is social aspects and even spiritual aspects. So in the beginning, at least from a mainland perspective, there was a sense that, or from the coverage at least, that this is a conflict between a group that is A, a dominant group in terms of size and B, also belonging to the same political force that runs the central government and essentially a Hindu group. Because those are the terms in which I suppose these conflicts are commonly understood in an Indian context. And a group of tribals who are a minority and belong to the Christian faith predominantly. Is that a framework that applies to this? No, it doesn't apply because you know, the Maytee people, of course, originally they have their own philosophy of life, rather some people like to call it religion, but to me it's not just a religion, it's a philosophy of life called saname. But in this thing, in the early 18th century, then these preachers from West Bengal came and the king, after expanding the territory of Manipur, three days beyond the Sindhu River, and in the north up to Sipsagura Sam, in west Sampura, beyond Kasar, that was the Manipur, but he embraced Hinduism. So even when he embraced Hinduism, he was a Maytee, like that today also. So many this thing, maybe not just tsunami, Hindus are there among the Maytees, now even Christians are there. Yeah, so the Maytees cannot be identified on religious lines. Religion is actually individuals' right of choice, freedom of faith and belief that no one can say no. So the idea of Manipur, or particularly the Maytees, cannot be based on religious beliefs and faith, that is one. So in this conflict also, Maytees were fighting against the cookies, they are Christians, they are Hindus, they are sanamis. But there may be some effort, some quarters may want to identify it as Hindu Maytees fighting as Christian cookies. That was the story, I mean the other side of the story, being spread around the international media, but not so. So has it been politically created this narrative and if so to what end, what is the sort of purpose of creating this divide in a region which is also in its own way for hundreds of years has had its own dynamics and its own sort of both differences and commonalities like you were mentioning. Well, your question brings up one thing. As I said, cookies have never attacked the Maytees because the older cookies, they are the cookies who even protected the Maytee kings in times of external threats. And the Bhamis cookies who migrated to Manipur recently, in recent history, they do not know Manipur, they do not have any love for Manipur and particularly they don't have any feeling of coexistence with the Maytees and other ethnic groups. This is one thing and they have become arrogant and they have developed a political ideology of creating a cookie land which is I mean not at all acceptable as you know the history of Manipur does not allow it to think on that line. So I mean the idea of having a cookie land separate from Manipur, it is a challenge to the very idea of Manipur. So the Maytees and the Nagas don't accept it, wholesale. The big question is why the cookies have decided to attack the Maytees this time, arm cookies. One feels that there are certain forces once this conflict so that they can take advantage of it. So the question points to the government of India. All along the state government as well, the G.S. says very much and also in this case they are two sides of the same coin. Very much. I mean all along you have seen the divide and rule from the British time being continued distance today also. So one feels that that divide and rule now becoming divide and destroy. So many armed cookies may run into thousands and the number of this thing cookie armed groups in the suspension of operations, there are not so many. In terms of arms and men, there are not so many. So the authorities have claimed that all they are testing those armed cookies in the suspension of operations, they have been listed and the arms have been collected and deposited. That's okay but others armed cookies don't need to sue roaming around freely. Why? This is one question. So these points to the common people's notion that the government is helping the cookies. They have rather told the cookies that this is the right time to take mateys because from all aspects the mateys are in a very very weak position. Take for example the you may say the insurance, insurance armed groups are now at the lowest level of their distance strength and mateys as a community as a people they're very fragmented, fractured, fractured. Everyone has their own idea of what to do and how to do it. Right right right and not a single voice is there. So I think the cookie minds would not have analyzed such things. A deeper analysis has gone into you know creating this situation. So the government are now openly protesting that some rifles are helping the cookies with ammunition, with other logistics and even in the field, fighting fields. Yesterday some mateys died from some rifles bullets. So but some rifles cannot do this on their own except without any specific orders instruction from the higher-ups. But how is it in the interests of India to have this conflict? So like you yourself are pointing out a group such as UNLF which you are the chairman of are now at their lowest ebb. I think the idea of free market economics has taken hold. The people like we were seeing three months ago the people have different aspirations now. Those kind of movements that are fought by militants with radical ideology don't seem to be kind of finding so much space to be voiced and then suddenly this happened. How is this in the interests of let's say even if we consider forget about the wider sort of interests of India as a union but just in terms of a government looking at a general election coming up in 2024. Why would it be in anyone's interest to see this as the time to have this? You are very right but then you see there are other factors you know a developing situation. I mean my observation the talks between the government India and the NSNIM you know has been dragging for 25-27 years and no can close in sight. We walk down on two points flag and constitution. Maybe they are trying to find a way out to compromise but even so the developments within the Nagashtra Nagaland state the NNPZ Nagana simple to groups they have decided to bring about a solution within the jurisdiction of the Nagaland state and they have said Nagas from Manipura are not indigenous people of the Nagaland they are domiciles so they have this has created a schism in the Nagar movement also. Now the Nagas of Manipura what stand they will take they will definitely look to the Maitreys someday and this is what is developing now after the Kuki attack on the Maitreys. So we were in Chowchandpur yesterday and we were meeting with some of the current leadership of these organizations that are heading the current movement and they say firstly the demand for separate administration is an old one and secondly that this was not an attack engineered by the Kukis they are too small and too weak to ever think of being in a position to attack the Maitreys and that in fact it is a pogrom a sort of genocide a process of ethnic cleansing what would be your response to that? Well you see just the chronology of the events on May 3 they organized the rally sorry that rally on the very day the vice president India was coming to Manipura why the coincidence normally when the VVIP like the vice president travels to any state no such public gatherings are not allowed I mean it's for security reasons but that day I don't know how it happened the rally was permitted given permission it began around 11 30 I think or 12 and ended up about 3 30 and then the violence began in Chowchandpur spread to Moray by about 4 o'clock 4 30 and then of course from Chowchandpur to Kangvai Torbong they said whole the Kuki people particularly with the young armed Kukis came down about 10 15,000 of them looted all the shops along the road then burned them down burned down houses of about two villages maybe about 400 it all began that way in fact the Maitreys were caught unawares that was the beginning of the pogrom organized attack on the Maitreys by armed Kukis I'm not blaming the entire Kukis just armed Kukis with an agenda and the attack actually was not from Chowchandpur site only in Moray only from the north side also a village called Iko was completely wiped out in Sikul area Kangpobidra district so the Maitreys reacted in a very spontaneous and localized actions where Kuki settlements were there and in fact of course local Maitreys attacked some Kuki houses along the airport road nearby the airport so about three four days it was just a spontaneous reaction of localized reactions Maitreys there was no ethnic cleansing at all but many houses you have seen Chowchandpur and did you see any Maitreys house now standing no you won't see all bulldozed levels and out of 14 15,000 Maitreys in Chowchandpur only about 9,000 have been counted and those laborers workers in the road construction inside areas they have not been traced so far and Moray almost 95 percent of Maitreys houses buildings and business establishments have been raised to the ground so it is actually they say Porgrom and ethnic cleansing and what not in a document called the inevitable split it is actually the opposite story that happened it is they who started ethnic cleansing in Chowchandpur Moray and Maitreys reacted and one thing when Maitreys react and if someone choose Maitreys to be their enemy I tell you Maitreys is the worst enemy really but it takes time for the Maitreys to become an enemy Maitreys are not easily provoked so so anyway I think at this point both sides have sort of also highly developed narratives on this front and there is no meeting ground on on who started it so I guess moving forward from there to where we are now do you see it as a stalemate at present what do you see as the possibilities for a political solution and also in that what role do you see Chief Minister Birin Singh having played because we've also as observers as neutrals as also journalists have seen that some of the rhetoric over the past couple of years you know like you make the distinction between let's say old cookie and those who you say are now illegal migrants coming in those distinctions have or you say you don't blame all of the cookie people only the armed groups for the violence or the conflict having started those distinctions haven't often been made in public speeches in the news in interviews in conversations with the general public by the Chief Minister and so the idea that essentially all cookies are narco terrorists and illegal immigrants and foreigners and have no space from a minority perspective I'm sure that's also a frightening situation to feel in and and of course label those labels are they are hurtful very much yes your rights in that sense actually a responsible person like the Chief Minister I mean I should not make any comments that may hurt the sentiment of a particular community you know you need to be very clear about the idea of money when you don't have a clear vision of the idea of money pool you make irresponsible remarks and that's where when it is politicalized it has very dangerous consequences he being a matey uh whatever he does is interpreted on ethnic lines a matey chief minister that happened of course say for example about eviction of and causes in reserve forests and protected forests it was used as a sentimental tool to waver emotion sentiments among the young cookies because and causes in the hill areas reserve forests and protected forests most of them are cookies necessarily their heart and it is used as political you know the distinct elements tool to incite the young cookies that's right so so in that sense is this what what we are all at this point because the entire population of money pool is now involved in this conflict whether they like it or not is this a culmination of this process of sort of right-wing politics playing out in well anyway that's it because I'll tell you all along the inherent weakness of the Indian political system multi-party political system and particularly when a right-wing party comes to power naturally you know they want to create divisions of society on you know religious lines and this lines that was happening that's happening so I mean the Christians feel that they have been persecuted that was I mean they have a sense of insecurity and in a money in money pool in a situation like in money pool we cannot afford to you know that such divisions in society we need unity we need cohesiveness of course we respect one another's distinctive for cultural identities and of all that that should be the strength of money pool instead of building that unity if you try to disintegrate on narrow sector in lines it breaks up and it creates confusion and that confusion violence erupts that's the whole story so since you have such a deep understanding of both the strengths of both sides from from let's say what maybe what we can call a military or an armed perspective also going back to the previous question are we at a stalemate and and how do you see the way forward well being human we need a peaceful environment we need to think about our future about our young generation for their future so we need this thing a sincere approach from the government India number one and the state government number two from the cookies side also they need to understand the objective reality and they must the older cookies they must tell their kids and kids that those who have migrated legally they must be convinced that they must go back to Myanmar and the government should ensure that those who have entered money for illegally whether they are given a this thing work parameter something something that they are recognized as foreigners they do they should look into this aspect so first essentially a process of recognition has to happen acceptance has to happen that if that happens of course many people have died many have suffered only because of partisan politics ultimately it is the common people who suffers of course yes and we have seen it on the ground the and the poorest of the common people that suffer the most right right so what the mate should do is mate is also should look back step back one step and look around see things and try to bring about you know some sort of as we have done before reach out to those common people as the we've heard often also the story of the big brother and the little in the younger brother right so from that perspective but one thing the government just would ensure that the armed cookies particularly and those not just in the shoe but armed cookies should be reined in and of course in the valley you have seen thousands and thousands of volunteers they're not trained just out of motion they just got all got all of guns weapons from somewhere somewhere and go to the front fire there and sacrifice there that is the kind of you know the feeling and sentiments among the mate is young people and if it is not given the right direction well we will have more chaotic situations coming and once would not try to you know face in the trouble waters and and that will ultimately affect India's unity also in that sense the the the frustrations and and and also fears of the common people have been weaponized in the case and that's what led has led to this unfortunate as it is there doesn't seem to be any short-term sort of solution to this do you do you see I mean this as a as a conflict that will in some way maybe at a lower intensity sort of play out for many years because we saw for example when the naga cookie conflict it took 10 years to kind of come to some level of common trust mutual trust and understanding is this also something and that will take money put in that sense back to a phase of another 10 years of conflict which let's say a younger generation has not actually witnessed before well sincerely and frankly if all the measures that need to be taken have taken up at the period of you know coming to normalcy maybe sort maybe sort and but the sporadic incidents will continue to happen because I have seen that so many hearts have been broken coming to terms with the reality and the young young people coming from for example now in the relief camps they in a state of you know revenge they don't want anything except revenge so consoling them or counseling them will take time and so far I don't see any action being taken in this direction I have interacted with number of them and I think it's and exactly exactly I was just going to say I think I think that sense is is there on both sides that there needs to be some idea of justice before a wider sense of peace is brought about I mean there must be a thorough investigation who initiated or created or instigated this violence that should be brought out so it will I suppose be interesting to see what is judged as a as an impartial party and and that brings us back to the government of India I guess as as the biggest of the big brothers in the in the room to play that role thank you very much sir for taking so much time to speak to news click and for speaking to us so frankly and and and giving us your assessment of things from I think fairly overall well rounded perspective