 Fabulous. So we are, we are recorded. Yes. Okay, I want to call this meeting of the Jones library, building committee outreach subcommittee to order at four o'clock on the 8th of March we are meeting pursuant to state law and regulation which allows us to meet meet virtually so I'm going to ask you to signify your presence of verbally Alex Lopez present. Thank you, Alex LeFave. Yeah. Anika Lopes. And Austin Sarad is present and we are skillfully aided by by Angela Mills. Thank you, Angie. Okay. So, we have no minutes, because this is our first meeting the first order of business is the election of a chair. So, nominations for chair of the subcommittee. Good. Well then I will nominate Alex LeFave. How's that. Second. Thank you. All right, are there other nominations. All right, so now we're going to vote to affirm the choice of Alex LeFave as chair of the subcommittee Alex Lopez. Aye. Thank you. Anika Lopes. Aye. Austin Sarat. Aye. Alex LeFave. I guess I good fabulous. All right, Alex. Thank you. Thank you so much. It's always fun to take over for a meeting you haven't planned. So, um, Sorry. So our first item that we have on the agenda is the subcommittee charge and I think Austin and the design subcommittee you had someone read that or do we do folks want to revisit what our charge is. This is our first meeting. We're going to have that handy. It's gonna say probably as handy as I do multitasking here. Sorry, I have my computer is not happy with multiple things here. Okay. So the, so basically we have, in addition to the chair of the JLBC as a voting ex officio member the outreach subcommittee shall have three voting members appointed by the chair of the Jones library building committee. The members of the outreach subcommittee shall be to inform the community, seek community engagement and make design recommendations to the design subcommittee. The outreach subcommittee shall design and develop an outreach plan, which will include at a minimum, keeping the community informed via in person gatherings as well as using the library town website, engage Amherst library town social media and email holding listening sessions in order to gather community input responding to questions or concerns raised by the JLBC subcommittee will work with appropriate town and library personnel, the opm owners project manager and the designers as needed to execute its outreach plan. After appropriate consultation with the community, the outreach subcommittee shall provide input on the designs proposed by the design team and explanations for the recommendations to design subcommittee during the schematic and design development phases. Thank you Angela, you would pull that down. So you can see each other that would be great. Any questions on the subcommittee charge. One. Oh, Boston. So I wonder whether we could just clarify the part of the charge about our making recommendations. So, what, Alex, what do you take that to mean, we will make recommendations. I personally take that to mean and we as a committee can talk about it is that based on that feedback that we get from the community that we would make recommendations that we are hearing from the community but I think, I mean to me, part of probably the next the next phase of this is we I feel like we need to sort of create a plan and we need to create some sort of public engagement plan and what that means and what those steps are and so I think maybe the answer to that question might be part of that process. Awesome. I think we want to be as clear as we can be at the outset, what we are doing. So, if I'm a member of the public and I come to a meeting, and I say, I think you ought to do X. What should I expect with that recommendation or that thought that's what I'm trying to get at. Yes, I hear you and I so I think this to me is that so the next item on the agenda is the outreach planning which is deadlines activities and process and I think that's the beginning of that conversation is perhaps answering that question. I'm happy to have, I'm happy to have an answer at any point but I think we need to answer it and we need to be clear with members of the public what our answer is. In other words, one model is that we're just going to take all the recommendations that we hear and we're going to pass them on to the design committee and the design committee will sort through them. Another model is we're going to screen the recommendations that we get or the suggestions that we get. And the language of the charge is a little ambiguous about whether it's the pass through or the screening, and that's at some point we just want to be clear about what it is that that involves. Yeah, and I think that's part of the charge of this committee is to figure that out so I don't think I have already answered because we haven't discussed it yet. The next section is outreach planning and it has deadlines, Ken Romeo who doesn't appear to be here so we'll table deadlines as we don't know them yet and I assume part of that is because we still haven't hired the architects yet which is what really gets things moving in terms of activities. Yes, Angela. Ken's coming in from the attendee room. Wait. Hey Ken. Hey, sorry about that I was having problems like you mentioned earlier where my machine just didn't want to allow me and it didn't want to do anything so I apologize. Yes, you were right. As far as deadlines we don't have anything as we are working through the procurement phase of the design team. So, you're absolutely right but I wonder at least since it allowed me in, let you know that I was here. I don't know if there's any other questions. Okay. Well, I guess I have. I mean again, just having been made chair of the committee, I haven't had a whole lot of time to really think about what today's conversation would look like but my initial thoughts and I would love to hear other people way in is, you know I read our charges to inform the committee to seek community engagement, and then that what Austin was referring to ambiguous make design recommendations to the design subcommittee. And so I feel like the first thing we sort of need to do is figure out a process so you know we need to identify the decisions to be made and where and how public can influence those decisions. It makes sense to identify stakeholders so we know who we're trying to seek engagement with. Do we need to define the role, you know of the public of this committee of other people who might help us. There are a number of people in the audience who I know have expressed, I see members of the public in the audience who have expressed interest in participating in this community outreach and I don't know what that looks like and how we do that as a part of what we need to decide about that. And then lastly creating some sort of public engagement plan, ideally with maybe you know milestones along the project timeline so I feel like a Nika and Alex probably have a lot more experience with this than I do so I'm just going to open it up and would ask for people to sort of share what your initial thoughts are so Nika. I'm just going to create a couple of questions. If you have any other questions, please do feel free to comment below. Yeah, so just to build off of what you just said, I think it would be important for us to also focus on identifying our audience so in terms of our base audience who are following. with us and hope we would be spreading the word and also our target audience which will be our greatest challenge because if we have them we wouldn't have a target audience so really identify who they are how how to reach them and you know also I think that's a great opportunity to focus on you know stakeholders and you know utilizing what we have like account websites and social media whether it's library as well but you know really kind of focusing especially on that target audience identifying their values and also what about the project will be valuable to them. I think what we would also really need to have a bit more clarity on what we can offer in terms of participation what we can offer in terms of what what are we doing with these recommendations I agree so we're very clear from the beginning and not misleading you know because I think with target audience it's always important that you're building trust. Alex you have some thoughts? Yeah I love I love what was just said I think you know especially in this especially in this time when we're waiting on architects and whatever I think there's a really great opportunity for us to really define what are the values that are guiding this project and so you know the things that I have heard are that sustainability and equity are both key values to this project and I think going out to our target audience to use the the term that Anika was using so well and asking them to to define those things with us is a really crucial way of getting base ownership from the get-go and so I think that in terms of looking at our metrics you know the point earlier about are we just conveying information as it comes to us from the public or are we filtering it I personally have imagined this as sort of holding space to be able to let the community figure that out together specifically there are going to be lots of things that I'm sure people are going to feel passionately about and they might be the only person to feel passionately about and cool if that door handle really speaks to you and it needs to be read and no one objects I don't see a problem with it being read but I think there's gonna be plenty of stuff that we do disagree on or that we need to find clarification and a central point and I've viewed this committee's work as being able to hold the space to to bring people together to have those conversations about what does it actually mean for Amherst to have an inclusive and equitable library system. Okay so I think I mean you know my cart horse so I think you know all of that I completely yes sounds fabulous and it feels like one of the first things we need to figure out is what we can and can't like what's changeable what what what's what can the community have feedback on versus what they can't and I guess or can't is a strong word but I mean what's what would create cost overrides that might be untenable or what what are the boundaries and who who defines that and I don't know Ken is that the OPM that sort of helps guide what makes sense for us to be looking at or what is that this is all new to me so I don't I don't have a I don't have a guide that tells me what's next I'm sort of making it up as I go along with you guys hoping hoping that you're wiser than I am. Yeah we we can offer you know guidance naturally but you know again as we said you know it's really up to the community but you know when you guys hear something and if it's something that we need to look at you know whether it's a program issue that you know maybe is supported or not supported and what those ramifications are we can provide guidance on that along with naturally costs if there's going to be cost cost implications so yeah we'll be able to provide some guidance. Austin um Alex thank you for the question I think that um we this subcommittee needs to do a little bit of self and collective education so we need to be clear about exactly what you said what is changeable and what is not changeable some elements are not changeable they're required by what we've committed to for mblc and some elements are going to be very hard to change because of the work that's been done through the schematic design phase so I think that we as a committee need to be clear about you know what are the things that we really cannot change um and what are the things that are going to be difficult to change because we've been going along in this and what are things that are really wide open I think that'll be really um that'll really be important uh because again I think that we we we we don't want to act as if we're starting from zero we're not there's a lot a lot has already been done and we want to be clear what what is just not changeable what could be changed but it'd be difficult and what is absolutely you know like red walls versus green walls I mean no one's talked about it so that's completely wide open um but we we need to be clear about that so we can be clear with the people that we're meeting with and then um my own my own view is that um we want to gather and collate the comments and reactions from the community um but we don't want to lead people to think that anytime someone recommends something that we're going to follow through on that recommendation and again that goes to what we just what I was just saying some of it might be because it's completely fixed in the design some of it might be because what they're recommending is completely contrary contrary to the values that we've articulated for the building and we've talked about with the town council and we talked about with the electorate so I think a little self-education about what's in which bucket or what's in which category the other thing I was going to just say Alex I don't know if this is um this is germane if it isn't please just tell me it isn't I think we want to have an early meeting I mean as soon as possible to do just a little bit of education of people about the committee who's on the committee what is the work of the committee what is the charge I mean the building committee what is the charge of the committee so even before we're there to kind of take you know suggestions about this or that thing in the design I I wonder if it would make a good idea to have some meetings just to explain to people what the process is Alex yeah and also um sorry I keep meaning to say this if uh if it just makes it easier for the sake of naming purposes um y'all can call me Xander it I reply to both my students do it makes it easier anyways um the so I just wanted to express uh some tension that I'm feeling right now in that um during a during a lot of the lead up to the vote on the library there were conversations happening uh that disagreed wildly on what could be changed and what couldn't um and I want to acknowledge that tension um is likely to be carried over that we're still figuring out what can be changed and what can't and so I want to be mindful in owning that um as we go to the public especially to talk to people who may have felt that there never was anything significant that they could change um and being able to provide legitimate opportunities for them to still have input um because I I do believe one of the target audiences are those who have not felt included in this process up to now um the the other thing that I just wanted to name in that same vein is uh if I'm hearing you correctly Austin um what I'm hearing is a model in which the public comes to us and we function as an intermediary in either in either capacity of collecting and passing on information or um ciphering it but that were the intermediary between the public and uh the design committee or the the larger committee um I I worry about that as a model simply because if we want people to be engaged which I do personally just saying it out loud um I do believe that we need to empower them to have a voice directly or to be part of that process and so I appreciate you wanting to be clear about our process in that um I also just want to be clear that my priority is to allow people to speak directly to each other and so having holding those forums in which the community can talk to each other instead of talking to me so that I can pass it on to someone else. Thanks Alex. Austin. I think we have heated agreement um the only thing that I'm trying to make sense of is the notion that we make recommendations so we can't and shouldn't prevent any member of the public from communicating with the Jones building committee. There's nothing that we could or would want to you know someone wants to write to the committee and communicate whatever they want to communicate they can that I have no problem with it I'm just trying to make sense of what it means to say that we are going to make recommendations that's all I'm trying to make sense of that part of our charge and I want to I think um that we don't want to be in a position where we're saying this committee will make a recommendation to the design committee on every every suggestion that we get now we could decide that we don't want to make any recommendations we're not going to make any recommendations we're just going to pass through the the information so it's just to try to get clear about the recommended recommend whatever that part needs. In terms of communicating I totally agree with you want people to talk to each other people talk to the committee people talk to and we want to facilitate those conversations so I think we're we're in agreement. Anika you had a hand up but then it dropped did you want to? I did I was just kind of processing when I thought a little bit but you know I also think that in addition to the benefits of us being clear on to where these parameters are where is the wiggle room that will give us an opportunity as our region last time misunderstanding on this we would be able to have forums and create timeframes for people um to relay the information because in in addition to target audience which target audiences which also would include just various people who are unaware of the project you know and who do not know about you know what's going on at all. I would imagine we'd have various like whether we did a forum um you know I would imagine probably zoom so hopefully whether is warming up maybe there are other creative ways that you know we could get to some folks you know even if we look at just the layout of the library we're talking about from seniors to those that would fill the children's room so I think there could be lots of opportunities as it warms up for some great community engagement whether we're at you know outside of senior center or you know bargaining you know the stakeholders the you know whether school committees or homes ever within the school system but again I think it all at this point goes back to us being really clear as to you know what what we're saying like we want to make sure that when we say something we're able to follow through with it you know even if clarity is we don't know at this point and we will get back to you. Thanks so I one of the things that I struggle with um so I joined the board of trustees literally as the mblc application was being submitted so I wasn't part of the community outreach and I will readily admit that I was working and not even remotely paying attention was not part of those conversations didn't give my two cents and you know that's we're all busy um I very much believe in this project as I'm sure I've made clear in the time that I've been um on the project um and what's difficult is from the mblc the massachusetts board of library commissioners we've committed to a certain program um and what I struggle with is that's a program that we created 10 years ago and times have changed and you know we can't throw the program out the window um and we have pricing based on a schematic design based on that program and so you know we're about to spend 36 million dollars on a library right and and and what a library looks like in 2022 and what it'll look like in 2026 quite frankly is probably different than what we as a community thought we needed you know 10 years ago when we did this and so you know in theory everything could be under discussion but everything has a cost to it um and we're already a couple years behind schedule and so I'm trying to balance making sure that for the amount of money that we're spending on this library that it is exactly what we need today and into the future and not necessarily what we thought we needed 10 years ago and so I'm trying to figure out how to sort of thread that needle of partnering with the community hearing their values hearing what it means to them um and knowing that we can push back on certain things but we can't just decide you know we need a new room that wasn't in the original plan because that would have to be signed off by the mblc that would have to you know either lose space somewhere or get additional funding so there's everything is a give and take and so um I'm not super clear yet as a committee on what we're prepared to go out and do and say to the community so and I guess that's kind of what I'm wrestling with is that we sort of have to decide and I love everything that you know Alex and Anika said um and and and I'm fully agree with and and want to do those things so I guess I'm just trying to again figure out sort of what would our next step be what does the group think our next step would be and is it to figure out what we are asking from the community right is it you know what Alex said about um you know how what what does sustainability and and inclusion mean and equity mean to our community how does that look in our community like is that our focus or um I don't know whether we need to just sort of define something I'm not sure how to get from this loosey goosey area to like actionable ways to move forward in a plan so again Alex are you raising your hand yeah sorry I I'm not good at sustaining excitement um the uh I guess like one thing I it would be really helpful if we had a very clear um idea of what could be changed of like exactly what people have talked about what can be changed what is static um if OBM can put that together I think there's a lot of uh ideas that are running through my head I don't want to call them exciting um but it might be interesting to start calling in uh or to like put that together in a way that is presentable to the public um in a printable format and uh specifically I'm thinking about you know just having basically a blank blueprint schematic asking people to draw the library um you know to draw the library under the uh under these values right like what does an equitable library look like to you here are the things that we know we're going to be part of it because they're currently part of the process we've committed to um but here are all the other things that you can add in and you know let your imagination run wild it might make a fun thing to print in the newspaper but it also might make a fun thing to distribute to every first grade class in the town and uh and really try and figure out how do we get this in the hands of multiple generations um as a way to get people to start talking thank you um um okay um so uh does anybody else have any thoughts questions comments to share at this point okay um so the next item sorry the other thing that um I just before it the connections get cold is like it seems like people did a lot of really hard organizing um in the lead up to the vote on the library and reaching out to those organizations and their leaders um in whatever state they might still be in to try and figure out how they would like to participate in this process um I think is an important next step uh even if it's more on the informal side um so that we are capturing those voices going forward and not losing all of the energy that people have already dedicated to this project and despite the outcomes that's actually a good segue and reminder from me Alex thank you so um as I said there there are some people um in the audience I recognize names of people who um have expressed interest in being part of the work of this group and before this group was formed I don't think it was clear what it was going to look like would there be members from the public it wound up just being members of the bigger Jones Library building committee so I don't know um I mean it would be up to us I guess to sort of determine you know how and when we invite certain people into the room as consultants or or you know how if we have community members who want to really jump in and be engaged in this process um what would that look like how do we decide how do we invite them in is just something to maybe think about um for the group put out there go ahead Anika I think that you know we can go ahead and collect names if you will um for who would want to be involved and participate but you know it's again our responsibility to make sure that we're clear and how they can um you know what's available and then you know let's also remember there will just be information that we're passing on from the building committee meetings to the community you know so I mean we do have I mean we're still getting going there's a lot that has to be determined before we'll have much more to say but you know there is still I mean there have been the plans so there may be people who um you know at this point haven't been able to attend the meetings if there are recordings there are plans to look at just for people to start getting a sense of what's going on and start forming opinions and then you know I would I would hope and have fingers crossed that by our next meeting we'll be clear or clearer with our boundaries of what we we can offer okay so what I'm hearing and to Oak go ahead Austin I just wanted before we lose it to pick up on something that Alex uh Oak has said standard um we did a massive public outreach campaign it was called an election and there were again as we as we think about what's changeable and what's not changeable there were things that we represented to the voters of Amherst about what we're going to do in the library I think we have a kind of obligation to make sure that we honor those commitments those commitments don't get down to you know the arrangement of rooms but they do get down to things like what the building is going to look like what the programs are going to be in the building uh what our values are uh and you know among the people it turned out uh 65 of the public endorsed what we've asked them to uh it turns out I believe that in every is a district or precinct in town uh a majority every one of them a majority of voters endorsed the proposal now again that doesn't tell us anything but I think what Alex said is exactly right we want to kind of reach out to the groups that were involved in that campaign and how did they reach out to people uh but I think that some of what is changeable and not is a is a design thing the opm can help us and some of it is we need to think about what is it that we actually represented uh to the public that we were going to do with the the library and I don't think that the opm can't really tell us that right that we just have to kind of remember as a set of operating assumptions okay thanks so what I'm hearing in terms of next steps is for Ken for the opm to sort of create some sort of list of what can and can't be changed so we are all starting off with a clear understanding looking at reaching out to leaders who have helped in the past to see how we can enlist them as we come up with a plan for how we're going to move forward collecting the names of those who want to be more involved so that once we know what that means we have sort of a ready list and then maybe for each of us is a takeaway item you know thinking about focusing on who is identifying our target audience and maybe starting to think about you know ways to you know ways to empower them ways to engage ways to you know work on I mean the library has a lot of existing partnerships in the community whether it's the survival center whether it's you know Craig's doors whether it's I mean so we already have a lot of partnerships in place with a lot of community members who may be part of our target audience and so perhaps identifying who those partners are now and how we can also leverage those so those are just sort of things I'm thinking about it I don't know if anybody else wants to add to sort of a next steps takeaways things to think about or bring back to the next meeting okay so the next topic that sounds great I just want to emphasize I like your term heated agreement Austin the I just want to emphasize that yes the capturing that momentum but not just the 65% although the 35% who disagreed in the amount of energy they put into the campaign and getting them to be part of this process and the people who didn't show up and so I think being able to both open the roller decks of who the current community connections are for the library as well as who isn't right and how do we what is different in those two lists thanks Alex so the next item we had was a regular meeting schedule and Alex I don't know if this time was picked prior or whether you were part of this time so I guess I just want to see if I guess one is how frequently should we be meeting and is there a best date time for the group in terms of meeting so I guess Ken did you have any suggestions in terms of regularity of meeting that you think we should consider I think at this point I think you know there's a lot to consider I've got to as you said put some stuff together I think you know about three to four weeks from now and then I think once we have a designer engaged we could probably step up those but I wouldn't personally want to go beyond four weeks I think that would be a little too long going beyond that anybody else thoughts or comments on how long before our next meeting I how much time we want to think about things I'm sorry Ken I did not hear everything you said did you say that you would recommend a month to be able to gather information or were you just saying that you wouldn't recommend that we would wait longer than one month to wait to meet again yeah I was saying three to four weeks and that way there I have some time to really gather and understand and then I wouldn't go beyond four weeks going over a month I think is just gonna you know not be a good good feeling for any of us involved in it so that's why I'm saying you know I think three weeks is about right but knowing that calendars might not align I'm thinking you know four weeks would be the maximum so is is there an interest by this committee I mean do we you know I want to be mindful of everybody's time this being volunteer work and many of you being on multiple committees and having multiple obligations is it a better use of time to sort of parse out you know waiting for the OPM and meeting in three to four weeks having a a meeting sooner than that to talk about sort of the other items what what what would people favor in terms of just one meeting three four weeks from now or two meetings one sooner and one later to our preference I would imagine we would need to okay Alex do you have a preference okay um so in terms of uh Alex is this a good time of day for you okay great and Anika this works for you ish okay um I'm sorry I will make it work okay thank you appreciate that um so uh so do we want to have our next meeting uh in what do we want to do two weeks to have the first conversation about identifying you know community partners and you know all the things other than the OPM defining what we can actually talk to the community and get feedback about so that would be the helpful and we'll be ready to go you know we'll we'll have we'll have a lot of information it will be packed with information what we do okay so does the 22nd at four o'clock work for people sounds great and can we also invite whoever um is doing that work of holding all those community connections together uh for the library um that would be a lot of people um it's I'll ask yeah it's not it's not quite that uh there's not one person who necessarily but I will ask the question Sharon would have a better answer for that okay okay um there are no topics that were not anticipated by me because I didn't know I was chair until 42 minutes ago um we do have a Alex you're muted Alex sorry um I said that there are no topics anticipated not anticipated by me because I didn't know I was going to be chair until 42 minutes ago but we do have eight people um in uh the audience and I would love um for anyone in the audience who has public comment um to chime in and you could raise your hand uh and I would happily call on you if anyone in the audience wants to speak okay it's a good start for each killing it here is chair oh good yeah fans thank you um Lauren I don't uh Michelle can you promote uh or do whatever for Lauren who I assume is Lauren Mills yes hi good afternoon can you hear me hi yeah yes I'm so I'm so happy that I am just listening right now um I'll just stay as an attendee if that's okay um but I I was um uh invited by Alex uh library uh and um libraries are I guess close to my heart because I have young children so I use them often and um also my mom I grew up in Boston and my mom worked at a library Boston public library so um I know that the Jones library is not going to be the only you know choice that people have you know to you know go to a library there's the um the the library that's closer to me and I the Memorial Library that I can't think of the name right now months in and um so I just I just think that you know with all the other commitments that you know have been stated that people have in their lives and you know time being you know important you know we want hopefully to make you know community outreach you know fun and as you said engaging and inclusive and just you know as you know a person of you know color a person who identifies as African-American you know we want to not only um have you know input you know even if it's just you know a listening session or as you said you know passing on information to the larger building committee but uh just to keep in mind that you know people of color uh they or just you know for myself you know when we are involved in um community um engagement we want to not only you know have a chance to speak but it just would be great to to have that creative spark you know like another um sub subcommittee member said that you know have the imagination you know be engaged and it's not only about a decision-making process but just bringing um you know fun because library libraries are you know places for communities to you know communicate and um you know there's all different aspects of the community so just again as a person of color um right from the start you know I hope that you would consider um those folks in the community as stakeholders and people who would appreciate being engaged in in your community outreach so thank you thank you Lauren and thanks for taking the time to come and listen and participate appreciate it sure um I know Max had a hand but he dropped the hand so I don't know whether he wanted to speak or not not putting his hand back up so I'll assume no oh uh David Lithgow David you're in the room I think you just need to unmute yourself I'm sorry can you hear me now I'm sorry yeah you're great go ahead I guess I just quickly I'm curious to know if you will have as an agenda item the ultimate answer to uh uh Austin's question regarding uh the quote recommendations uh unquote rule of uh of the subcommittee uh it seems to me inevitable that there's being hammers that there'll be a lot of competing uh competing interests uh when it comes to uh uh the various design recommendations that you know for the library and uh and and I am curious to know whether the committee uh whether this subcommittee will be setting will have a role in sort of setting priorities or in in a sense uh advocating for certain interests or interest groups as opposed to others uh the reason I'm calling is is because I'm specifically interested in the IDD community the individuals with uh just developmental disabilities uh who as a as a cohort within this community have no common ground to share uh and it seems to me that it's a group that has been neglected and it seems to me it really should be part of the uh library's uh you know mission to when we talk about inclusion to be thinking of that of that community within within this town uh and so the question arises in my mind is is this committee uh what is the role of this committee when it comes to advocacy and I'm getting too wordy so I'll shut up thank you David appreciate your comment anyone else uh in the audience would like to share a comment or thought okay thank you both David and Lauren appreciate you and appreciate everybody actually who's in attendance thank you for attending um Cindy I think that's the last item we had on this agenda um does anybody else have any parting thoughts or comments before we call a meeting to adjournment great well thank you for bearing with me as we uh create a new committee for the first time on something I've never done before and then muddling through so I appreciate everybody's uh participation efforts comments uh keep it coming I really want this to be a collaborative um committee that hopefully finds new and different ways to really engage the public and as Anika and Alex have both rightly pointed out the target audiences that are often not um at the table so thank you everyone for your work and with that I will adjourn the meeting thanks everyone