 Nice size audience Really great topic that we're talking to I'm Andy Lowry chief product officer of a company called Epris Which is a high technology company that specializes in directed energy weapon systems today? I'm playing your YouTube advertisement that I guess you can't click skip add-on so Very briefly though good afternoon, and thank you for joining us at the contemporary military forum titled army 2030 Preparing today for tomorrow's fight I'm Andy Lowry chief product officer at Epris a high-growth technology company based out of Los Angeles Epris is one of a USA star sponsors and very proud to be part of this professional development forum Epris designs and builds cutting-edge high-powered microwave systems for counter-electronic effects power management solutions and Applications across the government and both government and commercial sectors In just three years we've introduced three form factors or a breakthrough Leonidas suite of HPM products today and during this show We're proud to and excited to be unveiling the striker Leonidas the newest member of our Leonidas family alongside our colleagues from general dynamics So stop by with 253 to learn more about our capability sets and how our cutting-edge technology can support your mission applications Okay, so with that said now skip bad We appreciate the army associate association the US Army and all it does for the army the total army Educating and forming and connecting as we see right here at a USA's annual meeting Thank you all for being part of this program We're very proud at Epris to be part of a USA if you're not a member I highly highly encourage is probably the best of all of the services affiliated Associations, so I really really enjoy our membership and encourage all of you to do the same Thank you for being part of the program now. I'll turn the floor over to general David Perkins a USA senior fellow general Perkins without further ado Well again on behalf of General Brown and all the leadership here at USA We appreciate your support and coming out here, and it's a distinct honor today To be part of this panel and we'll shortly get into introductions But I did it also a distinct honor to introduce our opening speaker a great soldier a great leader And a fantastic chief of staff at the army. There's been a lot of rocks in his rucksack lately And as there are always in the army's rucksack, and then what happens is the rocks start coalescing together and becoming boulders But the chief has really dealt with them all in a way this I think is a great example of leadership poise grace courage under fire DC kind of fire and is Really put the army on a new footing for the future that we're going to talk about here shortly So again a great leader a great soldier and a great friend of mine General McConville Chief of Staff of the United States Army Hey, thanks. Thanks to general Dave Perkins and Those who know him is he's a great combat leader But he's also the one that I would say is most responsible for multi-domain Operations and the concepts before it became really cool, you know, so how about a hand for Dave Perkins? Yeah, I just want to make some some opening comments And I'm going to turn over some some really smart folks that are going to talk about the army of 2030 And the army of 2030 is really important because we should never forget What our army exists for our army exists to protect the nation to fight and win the nation's wars As part of a joint force and we do a lot of other things, you know, we help with covid respond to disasters We we we guard the southwest border, you know, we even drive buses But we should never forget about what we exist to do And we are an inflection point right now We're coming out of you know, 20 years of irregular warfare Terrorism counterinsurgency And we recognize and we see what's going on around the world That we need to be able to fight large-scale combat operations in a multi-domain multi-domain operations Environment where we're contested in every single domain And it's not about fighting the last fight better It's about winning the next fight and winning it so decisively Or being able to win it so decisively that no one wants us to fight us And we've been here before I look in the in the front row with general maddox that is sitting there and and He and his peers were the architects of the army that we all enjoy right now They looked at you know coming out in 1973 is really war They learned a lot of lessons from that and out of that they built air land battle They built the big five they built our national training centers They brought all these things in that made us the army we are today But we are in a transformation every 40 years I I argue the army has to transform And this is part of the path to that transformation. We're learning right now In validating a lot of the concepts from what's going on in in ukraine And so we're changing our doctrine and it's coming fm 30 is coming out. That's multi-domain operations We're building new organizations multi-domain task forces. We stood up in arctic division The sfabs are out there doing a thing. We're getting enough information operations We're taking advantage of technology when it comes To how we're going to train our troops and we're certainly not walking away from our dirt Training centers, they're just going to get a lot harder and a lot tougher And you you will be contested in every single domain while we're there and we're modernized in the army Six modernization priorities. They haven't changed We're going to deliver 24 of those signature systems by next year and third in 34 of those systems by 30 And then it's all about talent management And we're doing a lot of things in talent management because with all the technology It's it's still about people and it's all about people. It's about soldiers And so I'm real excited about where the army is going I'm excited about what you're all doing to make sure that we remain The the greatest army in the world and can defeat anybody and I look forward to this panel And I just want to turn it back to you all. Thank you Well, thanks chief You know, this is as the chief said Has storked time in the army every year as a part of the great army history But we are at as the chief said that inflection point that occurs every 40 to 50 years As a lot of us came in the army. We were just coming along with air land battle and The big five and and that really has been with us 50 years now And so now as we are looking towards the future the army has put a new operating concept And then the panel will talk about The new doctrine being put out and then all of the capability that will come from it and chief talked about the 24 systems that are coming And these this this doctrine these systems will probably would be with us in some form or fashion For the next 40 to 50 years. And so as the chief said The army is transforming the way it conducts war but at the risk of being Pro kill I'm not going to be overly pro kill. I'll just be adequately pro kill. This is a usa This is not just the way The army is going to refight wars of the future because as goes the army really so does Go our nation's defense because of how wars unfold That the our ability to oppose our will on the enemy eventually takes place On the ground in the united states army while we have great technology and we have great things We don't fight technology. We we fight formations Armies have always fought formations. We don't fight an individual weapon system And since we fight a formation that formation is by nature a joint It is multi-domain. So as the chief said we were multi-domain before multi-domain was a bumper sticker And so when the united states army comes up with a new concept a new doctor and a new technology on a new way To fight formations. It is driving the way the united states of america's military fights its joint formation That's just the way it occurs. And so that makes today's panel. I think all the more Important as we look toward the future and we have exactly the right folks here to lay this out for us Starting on my left. We have deputy undersecretary of the army Diaz secretary Diaz has been charged With the secretary for pulling this off. So no big pressure I would say We are very lucky that all our panel are accomplished operators in their own right combat veterans And so start great to have you on the panel The next member of the panel is the newest four star in the united states army Uh General jim rainy. He's sort of wearing two hats. I guess he initially was put on the panel when he was a g3 And now he commands future command. So he should get twice as many questions as everybody else So jim great to have you on here Again, the next one down the line is our newest three star general. I'm told in the united states army lieutenant general beagle Combined our center commander. Uh, so he's sort of mr. Dot mill pf for the army leader development doctrine We're going to talk about doctrine here. So he's the one trying to pull all this together at the at the Operator level in the army and then to cap it off. We have another great friend of mine and warrior jim greer From the school of advanced military studies sam's the home of our jedi knights the big thinkers The folks that come up with all these operational and strategic plans So we have the everybody from the person that's charged with the secretary to make it happen To the t general offices that are going to synchronize it around the army To the guy that's going to teach all our smart folks on how to operate it So I can't have a better background than that. So again, thanks for being here and I think mr. Secretary We're going to start off with you I think we're going to sit and do this. So it's a little bit more informal but first I'd like to Acknowledge not only the chief of staff the army, but uh general perkins and your participation on this panel Really as we were getting ready to talk about this having general perkins be part of the dialogue and Sitting with us and just reminding us where we've been It's been so important To watch you as a as an officer And and being able to learn from you not only in iraq and other places So it's just an honor to be on the panel with you. I also have to say it's an honor to be here with General jim rainy over the past year I've been the deputy secretary for right out of year and over the past year I've been able to work with general rainy as the g3 and I look forward to working with him in his next role And I'll save the last two on the panel over here to Really say what an honor it is because Beeg's milford beagle is the Sam's classmate of mine. We were in sam's seminar number one That had a few folks that did okay in the army Major general bob whittle major general charlie kistan's major general scott jackson Lieutenant general beagle and i'm the other guy that was in that seminar. So seminar one did okay and Our sam's instructor Was james greer. So it is kind of a full circle for me on the panel today and glad to be here I want to start off a little bit by talking And focusing on what the secretary spoke a little bit about today Which was why we need the army of 2030 And some of the characteristics of that force I'm going to first touch on a few objectives that the secretary highlighted early on in her tenure Then speak to five specific ways that the army Will need to be prepared to fight in the endopacom aor if called upon And then end with the quick assessment of our national defense strategy on how the army fits into that and what the expectations are so the secretary Is very laser focused on the army of 2030 as you heard this morning if you didn't get an opportunity to It's hard to follow that up with the clarity and the detail that she provided But she has six objectives and some of you may be familiar with those six objectives. I'm only going to highlight a few Because they are important when we talk about the army of 2030 The first one is putting the army on a strategically sustainable path And that's both a fiscal and a cognitive Mindset and construct that we have to maintain that path It takes us not only from the where we're at now to the army of 2030 But as general reyland has has been charged to do It will take us from the army of 2030 to the army of 2040 and we have to do that on a strategically sustainable path Aware of what the budget the allocations are and more importantly how we make change over time The second thing I want to highlight is the army being data-centric And the secretary spoke a little bit about that today And we always think about data centricity in terms of warfighting capacity and that's critically important especially in a contested environment, but we also need to have our Data centricity leading our business and analytical systems And as all of you know that are involved In industry and helping us get the right army of 2030 If we don't have the analytics correct and the data centricity focus on on those analytics We're going to be astray in some of our paths in some of the ways that we move towards that army And lastly about strategically adapting the way we recruit and retain our forces It gets a lot of attention with recruiting and retention And very much so and we could talk a little bit about that in the question and answer period But it's not only about the army of 2030 Needing the right equipment it's about needing the right people And delivering them in the right formations And I know that we're going to talk a little bit more on that What does the army need to be able to do If we are called upon to fight in the Indo-Pay-Com AOR Well first the army will play a key role In any potential conflict and it will be the lynchpin force We'll establish build-up secure And then make sure that we're protected as we do so We need to be able to sustain the force And we're continuing with our theater Army in the Pacific and our theater logistics capability We're building out a joint logistics type of capability and that's critically important as we look at not only access and basing But also prepositioning of stocks The army must be able to provide the command and control at multiple echelons Our planning and synchronization headquarters are second to none And we'll be able to provide at scale a joint task force headquarters both in the core or divisions to be able to do so And that's what the army brings to the fight wherever we go We also need to be able to provide ground-based long-range fires That comes in the form of hypersonics, mid-range and precision strike And we're continuing on and over the next couple of years We'll field all those capabilities And if required the army must be prepared to counter-attack with substantial maneuver forces in the form of brigade combat teams Combat aviation brigades to restore territory That was taken in terms of any type of hostile act So we're seeing that not only in europe, but we need to be prepared to do so in the end of pay-com aor Why is that important because the strategy of the national defense The the words of the national defense strategy tell us that we need to be able to do so And every day we're measuring ourselves against that strategy We focus on not only our ability to provide capability for integrated deterrence But to build enduring advantage And then we also need to accelerate our force development What we also contribute significantly is part of the national defense strategy is campaigning And the capability to campaign in the end of pay-com aor is critically important And it's not just about sfabs or it's not about multi-domain task forces, which are critically important But it's about a sustained experimentation Exercise and forward presence And we are doing that and we're going to continue to improve in that To make sure that as part of the national defense strategy We are providing the capabilities we need to campaign effectively and the army of 2030 will be a campaigning army in endo pay-com I want to leave on a couple of points and make sure that as we transition to talk more about what the army of 2030 will look like And how the doctrine will drive that army of 2030 I think it's important to remember that the endo pay-com Aor is not An air and sea or maritime aor. It's a joint aor And as general perkins said it's about joint forces and providing those joint capable forces that the army is critical to in the future We also need to remember that the joint war fighting concept The army has a critical role in providing lessons learned and ensuring that we are able to Provide the aspects of what's necessary for a concept of Contested logistics If we don't do so nobody else will and it's the army that has to lead the way in that way in that aspect So in closing as we look forward to Making sure that the force that the army provides is what our nation provide or is required And the national defense strategy Has tasked us to do we're on a great path We have to continue to assess ourselves and look at the metrics and yardsticks that The overall department of defense uses as they apply to the army And we'll continue to provide feedback to not only the department of defense But through our army and through our capabilities to be ready to assume that mantle and field the army of 2030 Thank you very much Thanks, sir General perkins sir. Thanks everybody. Uh, thanks for making time to uh To to uh listen to us talk about what is just absolutely essential really the the whole Main reason we're doing this great conference here at a usa and I'll I'll just be real quick. So why why 2030? Uh, you know, why are we doing army 2030 and and and the dusa mentioned it? So We've been directed to transform the army on a sustainable strategic path To an mdo capable army While maintaining combat credible ready forces every single day in between So pretty significant task there if you think about the complexity Right, we don't get a five-year break to be unready to spend money on the future Right, we we got to be ready to fight See some of our teammates for usaraf Uh, korea, you know, we got teammates from sent com. We're we're ready to fight right now and we got to stay that way And uh, I'll just be honest. There's we have some challenges. We got things to work on in the army But but fighting is not there's not one of them in my opinion So no part of this is because the army's got issues or isn't ready or is broken This is about continuing to stay The best on so I just want to be clear about that right up front So sustainable, it's got a fiscal, you know, we don't we don't have unlimited resources So we got to make smart decisions. We got to use our resources and our great taxpayers give us Wisely so we can't go year over year Unconstrained by the realities of the fiscal situation that the whole country and department are in So that creates a challenge strategic We have a new nds. We have a new national military strategy Our secretary and our chief have given us strategic guidance. So army 2030 is the way we've translated that strategic guidance into action And then a path There's a famous Sinclair Lewis, I think, you know, if you don't know where you're going any path will get you there, right? If you've been to ranger school or if you've commanded a maneuver formation, we always start with actions on the object It's like first thing you learn right start with actions on the objective Plan your way back. So the power and we won't get it 100 correct, but having a 70 80 percent idea where you want to be in 2030 Modifying that year over year. So sustainable strategic path. Those are those are three things I'd like to like to land with with everybody Second thing is We care deeply about the m Material, right? I don't want to be dismissive of that. We got a bunch of great teammates and academia industry Lots of partners sharing ideas. We absolutely if you're a military professional, I think we'd all agree That we have a moral responsibility to make sure the men and women who do the hardest part of what we do Have the best possible equipment Right, absolutely And organizations are important But I want to be clear army 2030 at least for the united states army is a full dot mole pfp Solution to a complicated problem and my good friend General Beagle here is going to talk about doctrine here in a minute, but it's everything it's doctrine It's building the leaders That we need to fight these formations and win. It's our professional military education We think in the united states army that we're pretty good at training and that's a big part You know, some people would argue that things like the ctcs had more to do with transforming the army Or as much to do as with the the big five So full dot mole pfp, especially the first p because the armies Is people and making sure that the men and women that are our most precious and most valuable asset and our most lethal weapon system Always stay at the forefront. So dot mole pfp Um, and and we're going to make some hard choices We're going to have to move some things we have now that we have for good reasons when we were a coin focused fight Um, we're going to have to accept some risk and move some of that to compo two and three and maybe reduce some of that capability Because we absolutely need to add new and additional Capabilities, so we got to get back to an air missile defense to include counter uas capability We we accepted risk. We we have to put that back into our formations Long-range precision fires are one of our premier efforts and we're doing very well in that But if you look at you you look at what's going on ukraine conventional cannon artillery matters, right? Rifle squads matter tanks and tank platoons and tank companies matter So we got to sustain some of our stuff except some risk and add new capabilities and that's all part of army 2030 Uh total army compo one two and three, right? We got a total army It all needs to be on the same direction towards 2030 And what we accept risk and move into compo two or what's better suited for compo two or three than compo one Is part of this transformation that i'm describing here and we can talk about if anybody'd like to And the last thing i'd like to like to say about army 2030 is is you know, we we have asymmetric advantages Against anybody i would offer and the two biggest ones. We have our first and foremost our people The power of an all volunteer force That is well led especially at the commander level so commanders that can do Combined arms maneuver Better than anybody in the world. So so that that's what makes us who we are and what we are And the second one is maneuver warfare. We're not we we would never enter into an attrition based fight Where we trade our men and women for time space or or terrain, right? We don't do that. We maneuver we don't We fight ethically we follow the law of land warfare. So we don't bomb cities and things like that. So That's the last and i would offer the most important part of army 2030 is it is it is taking advantage Of our asymmetric advantages number one our people number two the way we fight Which is underpinned by by the way we approach training and To your point sir, so i was the g3 a while ago and we wrote the army campaign plan which the chief and secretary approved and I tasked myself as the afc commander So i tasked a lot of people those of you in the uniform know that the bottom line is Transforming the army modernizing the army. It's team sport, right? It's team sport general bro and i Great friend trade ox force com has a role It's going to take the whole army I would offer all of our friends allies and partners The entire joint force are all going to have to come together probably like we never have But i'm confident we will Get where we need to be to stay the the most powerful military and team of teams in the world Okay, so good afternoon everybody Thanks, sir. Thank you if if there was ever a time to feel like a Canary in a cat show now is that time I've got my boss in front of me taking notes I've got the person i'm going to support here directly to my right and then a classmate And then two of the panel members up here have held my job So if i have any feathers left i'll walk them all questions and feedback But i'll start by saying that if you want to drive change If you want to lead change you have to start with doctor And you understand where our doctrine comes from It comes from our concepts. It comes from experimentation At a very rigorous level And as you've heard over the past 40 to 50 years, we've had four major operating concepts or capstone concepts for our army starting with airline battle To full spectrum operations To unified land operations and multi-domain being the fourth And we look at our doctrine as our common body of knowledge So what i hope to offer to you and share with you Is an understanding that puts us on a common sheet of music. Is it perfect? No concept is ever perfect, but it's an evolution of concepts that have came before That's what multi-domain operations is So if you were to ask What is multi-domain operations? I'm glad you asked As defined in our new doctrine fm3-show It is the combined arms employment of joint and army capabilities to exploit Or to create relative advantages that do three things They achieve objectives They defeat enemy forces or consolidate gains for the joint force commander That is our common definition. That is the definition that you will find in fm fredash show So if you asked me to expand upon that In terms of how do we leverage multi-domain operations in a large-scale environment? That's part of the problem that multi-domain solves force a lot of things to take in consideration for multi-domain operation And as the concept was developed and then experimented on and then turned into To doctrine it answers a lot of those those questions may not answer everything, but it answers quite a few One thing that we do have to understand is leveraging multi-domain operations as our approach Another term that we use and one that we need our leaders commanders and staffs understands It is an approach. So understanding that no longer can we operate largely uncontested The battlefield is transparent And as you heard this morning from the secretary the division is the unit of action at the tactical level Above that level your corps your theater armies, they're going to have to be able to concentrate all the capabilities and effects With our sister services with the allies and partners all those effects at the end of the day is still A semblance or it still will be combined arms maneuver combined arms operations, but in a multi-domain environment at large scale The framework that we use For multi-domain operation The framework is five domains and a lot of times we will get terms confused and mixed Which is why doctrine is our common body of knowledge But it's those five domains air land maritime space and cyberspace And if you ask what a domain is It's physical first and foremost think of those domains as physical But what do those domains allow leaders and commanders to do it allows them to see Both friendly and enemy capabilities They understand the domains through the lens of three dimensions Which is also introduced into our doctrine. There's three dimensions information Human and physical So it's through that lens that commanders understand the five domains And what is what is a dimension? A dimension is how literacy affects To leverage an example if you think about the soldiers of armenia When they would hear a drone overhead It's a cognitive human component Or change or advantage that was gained through that lens so you can see the effects through that lens They thought to themselves they had seven seconds to survive or if you've read some writings seven seconds to die Just because of hearing or seeing a drone overhead That's how you leverage a dimension one of those three dimensions and seeing across domains seeing what capabilities you have Or your adversary or enemy hasch Part of the the outline of fm3o and the big things that we really need to get our arms around Is things that we strive to do and how have we described that in fm3o? We described them in tenants tenants have always been a part of our operating concepts over time They've changed over time, but they've always been a part of our concepts It's what you strive to do in all of your operations The four tenants are agility convergence endurance and death Agility generally everybody gets their arms their arms around when you think endurance think depth that talks about our protection Our ability to protect ourselves Protect our forces as well as sustainment. How much depth can we create over time time space and purpose? But it's convergence that gets the most attention And when you ask What is convergence convergence? Simply very simply put is an outcome There's a lot of ways we talk about convergence and how to do convergence and how convergence adds up at the end of the day But convergence is an outcome Convergence is nothing more and as defined is a concentrated employment of multiple capabilities across multiple domains or echelons against multiple decisive points to create effects And when I say create effects, you are going to create those effects either on a system On a formation or on a human decision maker or in an area That is convergence. Convergence is the outcome that you want to achieve But as I stated tenants those four tenants are things that we strive to do And then there's the must-dos the things that we must do an outline in our doctrine is non imperatives A lot of different things that won't have time to cover it here But I'll welcome them and welcome those questions About things that we may or may not have covered in the new doctrine But imperatives are very important because there are things that you must do and I'll cover two as examples of the nine We must account for being under constant enemy observation on a large-scale combat in large-scale combat operations in a multi-domain environment and under all forms of enemy contact We must do that. We must account for it. And that's at echelon One of the things that we've talked about over many years in the past is always making contact with the smallest element possible But in the past that smallest element could be a squad platoon or company Now and going forward that smallest element could be an unmanned sensor Or an unmanned aerial vehicle making contact at the smallest element possible So those are the major components Of multi-domain operations and things to really understand and get your arms around And going forward when we look at the problems What is the key problem to solve is how do we conduct combined arms maneuver and operations? In a multi-domain environment at large scale And that's what our doctrine allows us to be able to do One thing that we do not need to do is label everything as multi-domain We do need commanders and leaders to understand the approach And leverage that approach through your training your leader development And your education at echelon so that we all operate off the same common body of knowledge And at the end of the day, this is what is going to allow us to Teach train and educate those leaders that are in our schools now as part of the combined arms Center an entire team produce over 300,000 students every single year across the force But that's the population that is going to inherit the army of 2030 And the army of 2040 So with that I'll pause and welcome any of your questions. I do think I have a few feathers left At the end of this, but thank you and sir over to you dr First I'd like to thank a usa for including me in this. It's a privilege to to be here I am from the school of advanced military studies, so there'll be a test after I get done But on a personal note, I would like to say that You know, we aren't what we accomplish. We are what those who follow us accomplish and the three former students here Have obviously accomplished much So I'm proud at least to have contributed in a small way to that But enough of that As y'all know on the 24th of february The russians Re-invaded at a larger scale Ukraine and on the 25th of february The school of advanced military studies set up a study group To begin to look at This war look at this large-scale invasion To see what we could learn from it and we were focused really in three areas So the first area was What does what's going on say about the emerging threats to ourselves and our partners going forward? The second one That we looked at was What is the change in the character of war? How war is being conducted? What does what's going on tell us about that? And then the third was to a certain extent In terms of what does it tell us about ourselves and where we are and where we need to be going forward? And so what I'd like to do is share with you some of the results of our ongoing analysis of The campaign in ukraine and how it informs not Just Operations in europe should have come to that but more broadly Operations anywhere in the globe should we have to engage in large-scale combat operations? So the first thing is large-scale combat operations as everyone knows over the last decade We've been gradually transitioning from the counterinsurgency counterterrorism in that direction 2017 we wrote our first truly large-scale combat operations Doctrin in quite some time. We've been applying that So right now we're about six years into that I would suggest though that to a certain extent We haven't really come to grips with what large-scale combat operations is Just because we haven't seen the scope and the scale of large-scale combat operations really Since 2003 One of the things that we should remember is that The space in which the ukranians and the russians are currently conducting operations Is about 150 times as large as the national training center It's huge The distance from poland To the front lines if we had to fight is about 1,100 kilometers again, that's You know 50 times the distance that you'd fight at the national training center So the scope and the scale is Extremely large the forces that are committed in rough order of magnitude are two full cores for us So Very large formations Very large spaces and of course everyone's familiar with the The lethality the destruction the consumption of of materiel ammunition, etc On a scale that we haven't really thought through in a long time not that we can't But we must The second thing is even with that large forces And the large space this is actually a very non-linear non contiguous fight The rough battalion frontage For a russian battalion tactical group is between 10 and 20 kilometers That's a large space And so that means there's big spaces in between And so In order to be able to cover those spaces in between you have to figure out how are you going to do that? As was alluded to maybe robotics and uas's and things Is one way to do that other sensors electronic warfare, etc But you have to have some way to be able to see into all these spaces And the same is true if you go over to endopacom If you're on a bunch of islands are all separated by sea by definition you are non contiguous And so there's a lot that we need to learn about non contiguous operations within the framework of large scale combat operations that That we need to continue to think through and apply and we're capable of doing that The third thing and again general beagle mentioned it is transparency the lack of transparency in the battle space because of the pervasive Sensors and the inability to completely mask and that's a two-way sword I mean there's advantages for us in being able to ensure that our opponent is not transparent But there's also risk associated with that one of the interesting things I think we can learn from what the ukranians have done is how to leverage that lack of transparency They've still somehow managed to incorporate deception and economy of force and those operations that Are more difficult to do in a non transparent battle space, but they've still been able to do it and we can learn from that The next thing is the three dimensionality of the war We've had the luxury Of being largely two-dimensional for about at least 40 years if not longer because of the dominance Of our air force and our air power over Our battle space we've been able to leverage that on the offensive side through the use of our own attack aviation Support aviation etc And we also were able to accept risk on the defense side because of that That's changed considerably and one of the things that we can learn from the ukrainian experience is How do you do air denial? Using only land forces and that's something they've been able to achieve If we go to endo pecom because of the space because of the the threat because of the Offensive and and defensive counter air operations that our air forces and air aviation assets are going to have to Do there may be relatively little air power over our formations And so we have to be more adept at at being three-dimensional And that's a dot mil pf solution. It's it's not Just a technological solution, but it is to a certain extent a technological solution And then everyone knows the ubiquity of eight of uas's and so we have to Be able to leverage that leverage our capabilities in that But also be able to counter our opponent's capabilities in that And that is something that scales up To large-scale combat operations even though you're observing the one little uas that drops a grenade into the hatch of somebody's tank But that does scale up and it provides both opportunities and challenges for our formations cp survivability Something that We've we've known for a long time that our cps were too large. They have a huge signature. They're not very mobile But we always kind of set it aside and said, okay, we have other things we have to do not that We weren't working on it both technological solutions and doctrinally But maybe not with the energy that we needed to The death of cps on both sides In this war I think has been a wake-up call for all of us And so initiatives for example general taylor and what the national training center is doing to present that threat what The combined arm center is doing to brighter the technological solutions what force come has done to provide guidance for all of our formations to Begin moving in the direction of more dispersed more mobile more survivable cps is exactly what we should be doing And we need to continue to move in that direction because in the next fight If we are up against whether it's the russians or the chinese or somebody else Even if it's a what Formerly we would have thought of as a second or third tier power our cps are going to be at risk And we have to make it more survivable reconstitution Is absolutely in imperative it's something that we see both sides doing over and over and over again because of the lethality the destruction The casualties everyone's taken they've had to reconstitute units more than once And it's something that We've we've got to move move out on again in dotmo pf In particular in our training in our home stations To think our way through how we're going to do reconstitution at scale, which is another argument for the Rebirth of our large formations that we've been engaged in because reconstitution has to happen at at the division at the core at the theater army levels and We have to regenerate those capabilities A couple of things that I think We're absolutely on the right track and we can leverage because we see the power of it And the first one is and again general beagle talked about it is convergence We see nascent convergence among the ukrainians. They took apart the russian artillery system In part because they were applying convergence. They were applying land power. They were applying electronic warfare And they were applying air power primarily in the form of uas's But now most recently also With the with fixed wing and attack helicopter So they used a nascent convergence and we can We can see from that the the power of where the direction that we're taking in our doctrine And that's something I think we have to continue to build on combined arms is an obvious one Again you see when combined arms is applied effectively how powerful it is and you can see the When you don't apply it effectively to your own detriment And that's something we can build on because it's always been a strength. But again As general reigning talked about we've got a up the scale on that so that our combined arms is truly In all five domains and and we can do that our doctrine Is set up to do it and and so we just need to keep building on that The cross-functional teams that we set up about five years ago They're on the right path the things that we are developing Again from our observation at sam's Is those are the right capabilities and we just need to as as was mentioned We're starting to get those into the field. We're starting to get those into the formations And we need to continue along those paths because we are in fact developing The things that we are going to need The capabilities that we are going to need Against this emerging threat and in this changing environment not that we have it 100 right But we're absolutely on on the right path And then the last thing I would say is that We see the power of large formations of divisions and cores The ukrainians to call them something else But that's essentially what they're doing and there are certain things that only a division only a core can do And those are what the formation brings Uh the ability to do a covering force to keep your opponent at bay So that your main body can move from one place to another and be able to Accomplish your purpose the ability to do counter fire at scale Only formations can do that only large units can do that and then the whole sustainment piece It takes a large formation to be able to do sustainment over months And over large distances And overall the war fighting functions to be able to to provide that sustainment to provide that resilience That can only be done by large formations And so we're on the right path there. I believe and we need to continue to move along that again everything that I said Really has come from our students our majors who are incredibly smart and they are inquisitive And they're looking at this war Not from a particular perspective Because they're not in CAC or they're not in force com or they're not in dev com But rather just looking at it almost with a whiteboard and saying what are we seeing? And what they've seen Are these things right here? And I think we can be informed by that As we go forward Well, thanks to the panel as you can see We covered a wide breadth of topics of which there are no simple answers to but that's because this is an army panel And that's what armies do they cover a wide breadth of challenges of which there are no simple solutions That's why we have such great people in great organizations What we'd like to do now is open up the floor to questions There are mics on either side of the room And so if you just queue up you can either direct it toward any one person or to the panel in general sir and we're talking about dispersion Throughout the depth of a theater Even dispersion along the locs back into home base united states Because of that on the present surveillance And how does that affect Everything it makes commanding control harder. It makes logistics harder. It makes mutual supporting fires harder It's really seems like that's a that that basic physical need to disperse and not make a large static target Has a huge number of rib wall effects across every army function Yeah, so dispersion is a function of survivability any thoughts on that from the panel members Yes, sir. I'll take a shot at it But it's to the points you you highlight it and it goes back to those fundamental things that you know, we must understand about You know large scale about multi-domain The the fact that the the battlefield is transparent And so we have to be dispersed we have to be you know more agile going back to the tenants But then how do we go from dispersed locations to bring those forces back together, you know to achieve Decisive effects, you know anywhere on the battlefield that we need it Mr. Greer talked Dr. Greer talked about, you know contiguous versus non-contiguous So if you're in a theater like endo paycom, you're going to be largely non contiguous But still at some point you have to converge all those Uh capabilities, you know concentrate all those capabilities on multiple decisive points, you know over time But but it is it's a reality of The the current battlefields that we see in the future battlefields that we're going to see This version, you know is critical Jim I would actually say um One of the advantages we have is actually our experience over the last 20 years And that is is that our leaders both non-commissioned and and commissioned Have grown up On dispersed battle spaces They've grown up separated and so They have through their experience The ability to command and control when they are in fact separated And they have the ability to Bring in joint capabilities In support of their operations Because it's something that they've done over and over again in multiple tours I think the challenge for us to a certain extent though is to scale that up And so I think that's an area that we need to move into in a way Many of our leaders are actually more comfortable Um Being dispersed than they are when they all can see each other and and that's the strength as we go forward But we do have to scale it up. I believe and and so that's where things like our comms and a lot of our Our coordination, etc come into play Yeah, I appreciate the question too, and I think what we didn't cover Was the defense of the homeland in our discussion of army 2030? It's a critical component for our national defense strategy And any force that has to fight in 2030 or be or beyond We need to be prepared for a very active Campaign against the homeland and for dispersion in in that sense It can contribute to our inability to Get what we need From our forts and our ports To the battlefields both in endopacom or wherever And I think that what we haven't covered was you know, how do we maintain the ability Where dispersion has been? at least in the homeland a a strategic A strength for us and to maintain that capability and not let the dispersion of Of where we're located across our great country both You know from the heartland all the way to the ports To be able to meet the timeline and the requirements to be able to fight In the theaters where we need to mass our formations our converge our capabilities So our dispersion in some ways is a challenge that we have to face not just Forward but in the homeland There I have an oxner with inside defense and I think my question is for general reigning as you take over AFC, where do you see it fitting into the army of 2030? I know you're new to the command but going to 2030 and the army 34 and the 34 modernization priorities, but even beyond that going into the future. What's afc's role in delivering those? Yeah, I think it'll fit in fine Oh you won okay If you could elaborate a little bit. Yeah, yeah, we got plenty to do Okay, first of all, it's going to take everybody right, but afc is one of The four major commands in the army And we work together and we help each other just like We did when we were battalion commanders together in combat And we have clear guidance from our secretary. We've got oversight from the secretary We have acquisition executive mr. Bush So if you think about it simply General bridow at trade act is going to make sure we stay having the best people best men and women soldiers our great non-commission officer core Leaders commanders, but he's got a big part of integrating Doppel pfp for the things that he's the the proponent force mod proponent for General popis generates current readiness make sure that that we're ready to win a fight anytime general daly and his great team at amc sustain the whole army from Making sure the rifle squad gets mre's tonight to the industrial base And I think afc is responsible for delivering the army at 20 30 That's what the secretary told me to do. You heard her this morning. We're going to design the army at 20 40 But uh, you know, I one it would be silly of me to do that in some kind of isolation and not take advantage All the teammates not just in the army But uh, we got general flinn and his team doing things out in the pacific It's like a virtual experiment laboratory going on every day We got a war in europe going on that we're learning from right now. We got teammates in the homeland I think somebody said it, you know anybody who says that some theater is something other than it's a joint Coalition fight is I would offer is probably not coming from a From a point of knowledge at that. So I don't know if I answered your question, but I'm really excited Yeah, thank you to see commander. Thank you Other my name is uh, steven mitatrak with north hook rum and you had mentioned uh data centricity and I think specifically Logistics and I would imagine battlefield. Are there any other data? Pools that you're trying to capitalize on what are they and is one of them a priority over all the others I'll take a first shot at it I think that as we look at our As we build the army of 2030 we have to be data informed for our recruiting and retention and we have to be able to go where we haven't gone before in terms of where The people are who we're trying to recruit were the population densities where the Perpensity may not necessarily be there, but it's about being informed about how we can get that data to Focus our scarce resources both in people and dollars and in Advertising and those types of things and again, it may not necessarily result in a War fighting capability immediately But it is something that we have to focus on and as we look at the analytics of Where we're actually putting our resources Who are actually focusing our attention on? We we've we've learned some lessons and uh, we've Taken that that data and incorporated into some of our procedures trade-off already is Is decreasing the amount of time for some of the procedures that has taken in the past to be able to take a A citizen into a soldier And it's been informed by data on where and how we need to improve so Of course, uh, you know the people space and and then the logistics which again I just want to foot stomp. We have to be focused on making sure that we lean into The logistics especially into the priority theater. That's where our Department of Defense wants us to be that's where as general rainy talked about We're doing a significant amount of experimentation and exercising to improve our capacity to withstand the requirements That we know that are going to be levied against our forces If and when we have to fight in indopake on aor so again, we're looking at it comprehensively our our business Systems everything And we're having you know, the right folks within the army focus on in on it. So Go ahead sir. Thanks, uh, Patrick Tucker from defense one. I want to go back to something that general convo said at the top And he said that the events in ukraine are already forcing Some changes and some reconsiderations in terms of doctrine So a lot of the things that we're talking about here the um modernization priorities existed before february of 2022 Some of those traduct changes Existed before february of 2022 Can you speak to what? In your previous path has changed as a result of what you see coming out of the european theater Where did you move or alter the path that you were on? Either in terms of acquisition in terms of afc in terms of doctrine anything. Thank you I'm sorry I was just going to speak real quick on the doctrine piece and I think one one of the things, you know To highlight in the doctrine is is through it. We did not discount, you know the last two decades plus of war But what was incorporated into the current, you know doctrine is those things being learned from negorna karabakh from the ukraine since 2014 not just you know as of as of late but since that time and that's what you know got us to You know, how do you change the tenants? What are the things that we must? You know consider in terms of imperatives so things that you know, dr. Greer you mentioned as well the transparency of the battlefield the the understanding that you know How do we make contact at the smallest element possible? How do we sense and see for ourselves? I mean so those things up from a doctrinal perspective Conceptually as a capstone concept or things that have that have changed based on what we've learned, you know recently Yeah, that's a great question. I and I don't want to speak for the chief You know, we have 300 or so doctoral annuals. It's a it's a suite of doctrine We have several that were this close to coming out on the on the heels of of 3.0 I don't want to get in general Brito's business, but Was the g3 a little while ago and we've we've taken a pause x on some of that to understand what we're learning about the information dimension in in this fight, but uh There we looked at negorna karabakh the um The war in ukraine has been going on since 14 I I think the army did a commendable job of doing the next generation warfare study led by tradoc So we're learning from that the requirements iterations, you know, we don't Those are informed by a bunch of things. So we're going back and looking at things were You know, I personally hesitate to say learning I think we're observing things in a very complex situation that that has potentially You know a long way to go but as we pick those observations our systems are agile enough both on the material side the doctrine side again Not not speaking for bigs, but but leader development is pretty agile the ability to inject things into professional military education So that I think the chief's point was probably that that we're not just driving on without paying attention to what is a really fascinating and complex Fight going on right now and really applies all over we're learning things from sencom aor We're learning from the pacific every day working with partners and allies colonel jennifer knoll in u.s. Army reserve Uh, sir, I think this is for general reine sir You talked about balancing the total army to ensure compa one has the room to modernize for 2030 Since compos two and three are still structured based on the 1993 off-site agreement Do you think it's time to get the band back together and have a 2023 off-site to ensure compos two and three have the correct talent And capabilities necessary to support the active component Well more importantly than what I think the secretary of the army absolutely thinks so and she directed the g357 To use the next total army analysis process, which I can talk to you offline It would be wasting everybody's time to try and explain it But the process by which we fundamentally adjust the army She's issued guidance that the next time through that we're going to look at total army And it's not uh, I'm be clear. I might have misunderstood you. We're not doing things to compo two and three So we can do what we want to compo one. I know you didn't mean that but just just to be clear Right. There are capabilities in compo two in compo three that we think we are going to need fast In a fight and it's all about balancing risk and we made good decisions for 20 years, right? And we might have Put things in compo one because of the pace but which our op tempo drove us That we might be able to accept more risk And move them later into compo two and three where you can leverage The deep, you know the thing there's there's expertise you can get at In compo two and three right doctors that are real doctors All day and then also can can deploy right So thank you. That's a great question, but stick around for next year. I'll have a better answer for you A good afternoon gentlemen major her scorn here. I'm a planner at three three armored corps I had a general question about the division as a unit of employment Offer it to the panel for your thoughts It goes like this. Um, so so much of the army's machinery and muscle memory I'd argue seems focused on brigades As you know as the audience for training and employment both at the ctc's And then in for a force request for the joint for our combat commands I was wondering if you had any thoughts on how what changes might be needed for Changing the focus to divisions being the uh, excuse me The units of employment. Thank you Let me start on that one. I'll get give it over. Um Yeah, that that's a great question and there'll be there'll be critics that'll say well, you know, you're you're going backwards To go to a division and that is absolutely not the case. Okay. First of all everything we're doing is threat informed uh, lieutenant general potter our g2 The entire enterprise of intel is where everything starts Threat informed So if you look at and then experiments and analysis and everything else if you look at the and we've been talking around it Somebody had a great question about uh complexity The the large-scale combat ops against a peer threat The amount of complexity speed violence chaos Leads us to the conclusion that our great brigade combat team commanders are going to be wholly consumed winning the fight they're in Right, you're not going to be able to sit still and plan Two days later, right? You're not going to be able to be in a close fight trying to get across a river trying to trying to Do a defile drill somewhere getting in an urban fight and be worried about shaping your next fight You're absolutely going to have to have access to a common operating picture and intelligence But somebody's got to give it to you Because you're not going to be able to have server stacks Surrounded by concertina wire the 300 people that go with them, right? So the complexity speed violence really the horror of war if you think about it Our brigade commanders will win the fight they're in with their teams, but but the rest is going to have to come They're going to have to get push logistics at the right time in a predictive nature So it is first and foremost about the complexity of a future fight. The second thing is Shift weight designate the main effort right the way you fought when we built bcts We pushed all of our enablers into our brigade combat teams Which made all the sense in the world If you're doing r4 gen for coin fights where we're asking a brigade commander To lock down, you know, a third of iraq and handle it for a year Complex absolutely really complex, but you're not a maneuver formation So we got up to seven battalions and you know 40 42 4300 people So what we need now is our division commanders who can fight really well to have those capabilities To make sure the brigade commander who needs it when he or she needs it has The fires right massing Artillery making we're never going to have enough protection assets. They better be at the right place at the right time So that's another reason fight coming up coming up the division Works and then the last thing if you look at the size of the army Not all not everybody's going to go right the speed contested trying to get out of a homeland So if we put 58 artillery brigades our battalions and 58 brigades some of them are going to get left I would argue that if you have a a well trained cohesive division artillery core artillery separate artillery brigades They're probably all going to go We'll see how many armored and light brigades go But all of our fires all of our air defense all of our information and cyber capability So those are good reasons I'll tell you a couple more because I said just what I said asymmetric right asymmetric advantages people and training um The span of control of these army 20 30 formations is going to go down And that's a good thing right? I mean There are a lot of reasons to get the leader to lead ratio down Inside our formations and let our leaders make sure they deliver the the quality of leadership they need And then from a training tra And I listen I commanded a minute. I mean I commanded a brigade. I thought I could do everything And I obviously couldn't but the best person to train artillery people is the senior artillery person in a formation The best logistician In a formation is probably not The infantry or armor brigade come combat team commander. Hopefully they're good at it The intel enterprise, you know that you have it at g2, right? So so three good war fighting reasons A better leader to lead ratio and I would offer and I some people disagree with me But I believe a better training approach is why we're doing that our bcts Are are going to get they're still going to be the decisive You know, they're still going to have to fight right? It's not like we're going to fight with it with You know a staff somewhere But they're going to they got to get smaller because they got to survive they got to get smaller because we need to improve their tactical and strategic Mobility we got to get way more protection in there and we got to be able to do more killing With smaller formations than we can do now, which I believe are you know, if you look at the technological advances coming I I I think we're going to be able to put more lethality in a smaller formation But it's going to take a lot of hard work and partnership But that that would be my answer I wish I was good enough to have planted that question with you, but thank you for that Thank you, sir All right. Hey Jared Don't walk away Um, I just want to add a couple things. Um, I think it's important that we think of the division not Uh, when you talk about it as a ue not Uh, just for an engagement or just a battle Uh, but if we learn anything from this ongoing war It's the requirement for duration and endurance And again large formations divisions and cores are the only things that can provide that so it's not just Shaping the conditions so that the bct can win this fight It's keeping the bct in the fight over weeks and over months and I think that's where we have to focus our divisions and cores is in that duration and in that endurance You know war is not going to be a two week long warfighter It's going to be much more than that. We have to we have to focus on that And so that's that's the other area that I think is extremely important and as a core You know asking yourselves as a core, how do we keep those divisions in the fight over time? And I think that's going to be extremely important Yeah, not not to be a dead horse because we're going to we're going to turn this thing into glue in a second But when you look at you know the concept, I mean the the fundamental aspect about multi-domain operation Is at large scale that's the the bottom line premise to it if you compare that to the previous concepts i.e Full spectrum operations. That's all focused around low intensity We knew we're going to be doing low intensity but looking forward it is about large scale So it's not that you know, we're confused this large scale is what we're seeing now and what we see in the future And then when you look at the two-party theaters, especially end of paycom It's it's large scale. We can scale down You know in a sense, but but that's the focus, you know of the doctrine And then when you talk about or think about convergence It is that you know concentrated employment, you know across multiple domains, you know with our allies with our partners As your rainy said that's going to be overwhelming for a brigade or bct And as the secretary pointed out this morning It is you know adding structure adding personnel to division and hire so that they they can do that effectively To concentrate those capabilities, you know across multiple echelons that multiple across multiple decisive points That's what you need those higher echelons to do versus, you know at the brigade level is all about winning that close fight Thank you gentlemen Good afternoon gentlemen, lieutenant colonel josh arbo from the united states army reserve Appreciate the opportunity to ask questions. I know I had dr. Goerre when I was in the sams a few years ago as well So it's good to see that there's potentially hope in the future. You can just keep working your way up So keep rowing Keep rowing So with that being said as we've talked through this listening to general perkins and listening to undersecretary Secretary ds We see the character wars evolving speed and complexity. It's much faster It's going to require those joint multi-domain operations, which leads to me just from experience at usurpak and other locations is just It's going to require us to think about how we educate leaders And so really just thinking of dr. Goerre and then thinking to uh Listen general beagle as you take on your role as a combined arm center commander is is how are we going to make our joint Are our professional military? Sorry professional military education more joint to make it inherently joint to educate future leaders that can think 3d Just building off the experience of unified pacific and some of these other war games the army's done Like we have to be able to teach our leaders to think 3 dimensionally for these complex problems So just kind of what are your thoughts on the future? And how does the army lead the way for joint professional military education? Yeah, that's a great question and and from the perspective of cac You know, we can't we can't do it alone I mean it has to be done at echelon But it goes back to the the base point of everybody has to understand the approach We all have to understand our doctrine and even the down tape trace doctrine that will come out of you know Three dash shows you know rainy, you know alluded to some has been put on pause once we get all that online Across our echelons and formations. We all have to want to understand it. I mean using that common Body of knowledge, but if you look at how our pme is designed to include our you know, our army civilian professionals The the other services allies and partners that are that are part of the course that are you know Here in the room that go through pme with us is learning from them The lessons learned that come out of our you know call centers come out of our ctc Rotations come out of our experiments that we do all has to be integrated in But we must do that at echelon So the leader development down at the lowest levels if there's not incorporating our doctrine the lessons learn and we're not talking About it there Then then we're not going to do ourselves any good. We have to do it I would say across all of our echelons to ensure that we're factoring in the lessons learned to ensure that We're factoring in things that are coming out of experimentation That other things that we're doing across our force and as well as the joint force as well And I would say again as we get terms proper, you know Joint operations are all domain army operations or multi-domain, right? Not to correct you on terms, but But again, we have to understand fundamental points, you know, just like that So we all stay on the same Cheated music so we truly know what we mean and how we need to train and educate and do or and conduct our leader development All right. Thank you gentlemen Okay, any Okay, sydney go ahead I'll never stop, but yeah, I'll keep on coming Across all these different parties we have, you know, this is a materiel panel But you know, we have our 35 parties of which I think a couple of dozen are coming online in one form or another Um looking at the threads you guys have talked about about dispersion about tempo about command and control about Shifting functions up the echelons to division and core Is there a crucial? Enabling function or connective tissue among those 35 Materiel programs I know they're not designed to be interlocking designed to be independent So we don't pull one block out and top of the whole jenga tower like with fcs But is there some, you know material priority that you know Is absolutely foremost in your minds to enable all the things that you are talking about today Yeah Thanks team One humans Right, I don't mean to be flippant, but but uh You know war is a contest of will between human beings and and having having the best people Best soldiers best nine commission officer core best leaders at scale and best commanders Um, so I I will do everything I can to make sure that everything we're doing We never lose sight of that getting back to that teamwork Um And we have a smaller part of that we ought to we ought to be able to we ought to be able to tell tradoc What kind of leader attributes and leader skills and things we ought to be able to write requirements documents that that include human things So that they can bring the power of their enterprise to bear In support, but I know you're not going to let me get away from that unless general Perkins um, if I had to Again been been the commander all week and I'm going to go through a very deliberate phase But I think our modernization priorities are right War is not a simple thing. It's it's hard to put your finger on one thing um, I'm I'm almost certain that That we got to have a joint network At speed and scale that's compatible with our partners across the joint force um That kind of Makes it don't really hard to do any of the other things we visualize if we don't bring that to bear But even that, you know, I mean if if nobody can talk the american army, at least we're not going to quit, right? I'm somebody will walk until they make contact and You know somebody will close with and destroy the enemy. So I don't think there's a single thing But the the network would be close We believe that everything you do is driven by intel, right? So we've got to be able to sense in a way that lets us offensive and defensively fight So those would be a couple but again, uh, I'll have it figured out by the panel on wednesday Thank you I'm just kidding. Don't ask me that on wednesday All right Sir, uh lieutenant colonel, uh, jan indefeldt royal netland's army As a as a reason sam's grad I get it and having suffered dr. Greer's extensive testing as well I can I can attest to the excellent learning and A learning environment of of sam's And that is in my opinion also to do Also because of the fact that sam's incorporates multinational Learning environment. So for every eight americans, I believe there's one international student And my question relates to that point And this is for general rainy if you if you will sir, how do you What role do you see for the innovative potential of relatively smaller nations armies? In preparing the u.s. Army for tomorrow's fight Well, it's going to take all of us and I think everybody has strengths and Everybody has gaps and everybody has things that they're very good at So I I think that I'm not are you saying like Innovating in lieu of other things or the fact that some countries have more of an innovative culture For example project convergence, sir To take that as an example It is now not very Not many nations are involved as in in doing the the actual project itself. Yeah, and how do you see that going on? Yeah, more more and more over time more and more collaborative more it's it's not not Intentionally structured in a way to preclude our allies and partners. We're just getting started figuring some things out But the chief and the secretaries intend is to to being you know, increase the scale increase the inclusiveness and Certainly our our partners and allies will be included more and more as we move through it Thanks, sir I think it's also important to continue to have Our allies be part of our organizations at echelon I had the luxury of working with the general Michelle honry st. Louis from the Canadian army When I was at first core and although the Canadian army didn't doesn't possess the capabilities for scope and scale his presence his ability to Help us think differently. Not only when we train, but when we conducted exercises Especially in the end opaque. I'm a or was very powerful So we don't own any Patent of innovation and and our allies and partners Especially in end opaque on but as kevin lark is going to lead to and in europe today are providing us with an unbelievable capability that Is is critical in the 21st century and it's in even though project convergence may not have the necessary participation that we'd like The participation in the joint And combined board of directors board of directors is increasing and as we continue to develop and and gain capability as we go forward with Things like aukis. We will We will have increased participation and our allies and partners be critical So I think that outsized participation At those headquarters makes a difference A gentleman mr. Chris Delarosa us army north With statements of need for large formations with emerging capabilities To campaign do we need to adjust our core and division structure? Forward to support campaigning especially in this time of contest environment I'm going to show a little bit of bias of my previous time in uniform at first core and the 25th infusion division and I would just say that If we look at where we are now in europe with fifth core forward And imagine if we didn't Have that capability and capacity forward where we'd be now So yes, it does require a lot of Things that we have to look at in terms of potential forward focus for In this case first core But I do think that there are some strong benefits to that We have to work it through our systems in title 10 Work it through the office of the secretary of defense for posture and other types of activity. So not getting in front of them at all But I do think that that discussion Probably needs to be had Especially when you're talking about timing we we preposition stocks and equipment our headquarters presence and our ability to Plan and coordinate and then be in theater campaigning is a critical capability That we've definitely learned so Without making any promises or signing us up to anything I do think that that's something that we're going to continue to look at as we go forward and the army of 2030 especially into opacom We're going to continue to look at at how and and where it campaigns Look forward to the fifth core lessons learned in over the next couple days as well. Thank you Gentlemen, good afternoon heat Dunbar us on the retired mr. Undersecretary You just mentioned your experience in first course. I think you'd be the best person maybe to address this first off, but My question concerns logistics in the the prior theater of priority in dopecom Where do we see the major capability gaps in that theater now? And what are we doing between now and 2030 from either a material perspective or somewhere else on the dotmo pf Spectrum and also I have to think that part of the solution is a joint solution. So can you address what we're doing to try and Bring more capability to that AOR between now and 2030 Absolutely, it definitely is a joint solution. I do think that watercraft is Is an area that we were Going to invest to ensure that we have the capability in a distributed and a Very non contiguous environment to be able to rapidly supply and resupply as required With our a theater sustainment command, uh, which is a definite Strength to our forward positioning, but there may be some increased Capabilities that we can have to make it truly a joint logistics command As mentioned the army Provides headquarters at echelon And and a backbone of decision-making and planning and I think within The priority theater the 8th Theater sustainment command is doing great And if we want to really get after the concept of contested logistics We really need to see how in the next couple of years through our experimentation and maybe different ways of increasing Limited capacity within that headquarters we can do so and I think we have that as an objective for talliesman sabre 23 And we're going to push the envelope there to see where we exactly need some additional types of capability So I'll I'll just focus on those particular areas, but uh, you know, it's it's going to be something that we're going to rely on the joint force to also Continue to help us work through that because in that particular theater. We have to build and maintain The trust within the joint force that That the army logistics forces are going to be there when needed and I think that we're there now We're just going to continue to increase that capacity Well, I think that was the official last question since there's a lot of demands on our folks up here Let's have another round of our applause for our panel members up here Those of you who still have questions some of them may hang around later here on the sides and and Follow up on that and as the secretary said we're becoming a data-centric army So with that in mind there's a qr code on the back wall there that if you take a look at that It'll give you more information including an info paper on army 2030 So again, thanks for our panel and thanks for you all spending time with us today. Have a great day