 I found this equilibrium. I've lost a lot of friends. And so besides, you know, losing my mom and almost, um, losing my own life, we've lost a number of friends to suicide. And it drives me crazy because there is so much to boo out there. People, uh, feel guilty for needing the medication. They feel like it's a cop out. They feel like, uh, it's a failure of their willpower. It's a failure of character. And that perception is like poison to people that really, really need that assistance. Hey everyone. So if you're not new to this channel, you probably are aware that I am on a journey to explore your subjects and to see where some positive impact can be made. But part of that journey, lend me to understand that it's also sometimes just important to honestly and openly talk about various issues or subjects, which often have a lot of myths around them. So to kind of add, not only a questioning mind to it, but also just an honest sharing, which I feel we miss too often. A dominating thought lately in my mind is that too many times we share only what's best in our lives. You know, that's kind of the way of the social media we're, uh, showing, you know, where we traveled and we have bought something new and we're happy with our partner. And that kind of creates this illusion that for us that everyone is living great and we're the only ones having trouble and it's not real. Everyone is having difficulties, but people are good at hiding it. But that does a disservice because we start to feel like everyone is fine and I'm the only one having a difficult time. The thing is we all go through trouble. But whenever I meet an honest person who is not only capable of openly talking about various issues, but also about sharing their both ups and downs, but even more importantly, not only sharing the difficulties they have, but also how they overcame them. And that's why I feel this podcast is so special because in this episode I am joined by Salame Thornton, who we talked together with about the science behind yoga. And we did touch the subject of depression for a little bit there, but that inspired me to make this dedicated episode where Salame shared very openly about her own experience, how she went through depression and how she learned to balance it and to live with it. And she basically the way I see it, she overcame it. And what strikes me very much as well is in her story, as you will see, she shares that in the past when she was much younger, she used to judge people, lean to judge people who are having a depression. And I know I was in that stage years ago as well. It's kind of the easy way to look at depression and to think, oh, these people, you know, they're weak-willed and, you know, they choose to be unhappy. And she had their perspective years ago. I had their perspective and she learned, as again, you'll see through the video, she learned the hard way that it's not about willpower. There's a lot of myths around what is depression and it's much more serious and much more important to understand what it is than most people think. And that's why, again, I felt inspired to talk to Salame, a very, very individual where, you know, such honesty, such clarity and the way she expresses her thoughts and also she is a science-based person. She likes facts as much as I do. This is, again, where we have a good talk to each other. And so it's not just her personal opinion, but it's also an educated opinion not only from her own experience, but also from her generally collective knowledge. So, you know, I guess I'm talking a bit here too long, but I just wanted to say it's a very special talk. I hope that this will open up the eyes of many people to what depression actually is. I hope that whoever is having a difficulty with depression, that this help will be, this talk will be supportive and will be valuable. And yeah, I just hope you will enjoy the talk as much as I did. So without further ado, I'll let you listen to the talk and have a good one. But we already know each other, but what struck me most was you mentioned that phrase wearing your heart on your sleeve. And I heard that phrase somewhere in the past, but never clicked with me that much. But when you said it, I realized, oh, actually, we're two like that. We're the two of us together are like that. And during the talk, you brought up the subject of depression, which is a big subject on my mind, which I don't know enough about, I feel. And I find it so rare to find people who would be so open to talk about it as much as you are. And that's one of the main reasons I wanted to come back together and look at that subject a bit more. Okay. So that's that's the intro. Do you want to chip in something at all? I was going to ask, do you suffer from any sort of depression? You know, the thing is, I don't think so. Not that I ever known. There's one moment in my life when I was in my teens, I was 17, 18, last couple years of school, and I was in a very low mood. So I had insomnia, basically, I could barely sleep and I kind of distanced myself from my friends and I was very moody. But that primarily was because I was pushed to study and I didn't know what it's kind of a common dilemma in my country. Long story short, so a couple of years I was in that down mood, but then eventually I changed up my life and it was all good. So I do like to say I was kind of depressed, but that's even even there I'm cautious because that's where I feel like I have a lack of knowledge. Because I think we spoke, you and me spoke about that too. The last time is that sometimes people have misconceptions about what depression is. And I think, you know, there's a danger even in my mindset, like some people are like, Oh, they think it's just a choice or it's just a moody person. But it's so much more than that, as far as I know. And but the very last thing I wanted to say before I get back is that, yeah, so that kind of that's one more reason why I'm interested to learn about it is because it's more difficult for me to relate, because I don't think I really went through that. But I see that it's such a big thing. And no one is safe from it. I mean, anyone, anyone can have it anytime from as far as I can see. So yeah, my mind is very curious about all of it. Um, I used to be one of those people that used to think it was kind of a choice. When I was a teenager, my parents were both, both of my parents suffered from depression or my mom suffered from depression and actually lost my mom to that. But when I was a teenager, they were both also self medicating quite a bit. And so they were drinking and doing other things and so I didn't really have the support I needed in order to try and go to school or try and, you know, work on myself and becoming the best person that I could be. And a lot of my energy sort of went into just trying to stay on the path moving forward. And the mom of one of my good friends, she kind of took me under her wing and I stayed with her for a little bit and she started taking me to these Allen non meetings. And I personally, I don't have much patience for, um, like I don't have very much patience for whining or sort of pity parties or, and part of that I think has to do with the fact that, you know, I watched my parents growing up go through bouts of depression and then also self destructive behavior with addiction. And I always kind of swore that I was not going to fall into this same trap. And everywhere on the walls, it said, um, misery is a choice. Misery is a choice. And I found it so sort of, um, unpleasant to sit there and listening to everybody's horrendous, depressing life stories. And if you don't know what Allen on is, it's like, I was about to ask you Allen on is like, um, for people who are family members or close to somebody that's an alcoholic or, you know, addict in some sorts. And so those relationships often become very codependent in a way where the person that's not an addict, um, kind of allows the addict to have all these mood swings up and down. They kind of break your boundaries. So a lot of their issues wind up sort of becoming your issues. It's tricky to explain. But so it can be very hard for people that are family members or close to somebody that suffers from addiction because they're self-destructing right in front of your eyes, and you love them and you care about them, but they're also oftentimes not very nice to you. And, and that's, you know, anyway, I went to that meeting and everybody goes up and they tell their story. And like I said, I don't have much patience for, you know, people complaining. I'm one of those people that thinks that you need to just get up and, you know, buckle up and go do it. And so that was me for a time period where I would sort of just refuse to allow myself to have those sort of depressed emotions and force myself through. But I was in a way oftentimes finding other things to substitute. Like I would have these like serial monogamous relationships and imagine that, you know, I was falling crazy in love and everything was going to be wonderful because now I was in love, but then a few months in, that kind of would wear off. And I realized, you know, maybe I wasn't really in love with that person. And it got to a point where I'd gone through that cycle so many times that I was starting to think that there was something wrong with me, and I was just not really capable of loving anybody that way. Now I look back at it and I realize I was sort of using that sense of initial excitement and euphoria as something to help pick myself up. But it only lasted so long and then it would drop and I'd get depressed again and, you know. And then I met Matt and with him, the feeling of love never went away. Like I was truly madly in love with him, but the cycle didn't stop. And so, you know, it was, my mom died in 2006 and she committed suicide. And I moved to America 10 days later to live with Matt. And I, like I refused to cry at my mother's funeral. I refused to participate in all of the wallowing and grief, basically. I just shut down like I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to participate in this. I'm not going to be weak. And my parents were very different in a way where my mom had a big temper and lots of emotions and all over the place. And my dad was much more so of a, you know, don't be weak, stop the whining, you know, very sort of closed off from that emotional contact. And from my perspective at the time, it seemed a lot easier to sort of mimic his behavior than to go through all of these ups and downs that I was watching my mom go through. And so I tended to kind of try and like shut everything out. And then on my 21st birthday, after I moved here about two months or three months after my mom died, it was like the floodgates just broke. Like I couldn't hold it anymore. And I just cried all day endlessly. And it was kind of at that point where I feel like my sort of PTSD from growing up in a challenging environment like that, especially through my teenage years, sort of kicked in. And a very big part of it, I think, was a figure of abandonment and sort of an attachment disorder, because I also didn't really bond well with my mom as a baby. I bonded to my grandmother. And Matt was still in, you know, he was still sort of disconnecting from his previous marriage. And so, you know, he would have to go and see his boys kind of separately from me in the beginning, and was dealing with, you know, all that other stuff. And I remember every time where he would leave, I would start to panic. And I would sort of start to spiral and like not be able to breathe and all these things. And I didn't know what was happening, because I'd never experienced that before. I had for such a long time just like, had my horse blinds on and I'm not going to get pulled off balance. So I really had no idea of like who this person was that all of a sudden was just crying all the time. And I'd get these burst outbursts of anger. And I think I mentioned last time that I developed a fondness for Mary Jane or marijuana. And part of that was because it allowed me to sort of quell down that reaction, that sort of physical emotional reaction. And what happens when you have that big physical emotional reaction is for one, like your heart beats goes up, you have a hard time breathing. So it definitely is very physical, but it also makes your mind to just start spiraling. And the mind in a way always wants to have a reason for things. And it's really good at your, it's really good at telling itself these stories or excuses for why something is the way that it is. And I would have these angry outbursts where I'd want to push Matt away. I would want to fight or I'd want to run away myself. And then I would smoke a little bit and it would sort of help me calm down. And then I was able to go back and sort of think what just happened? Like what was it that just happened? Why am I so angry? And it would often start off with I would be, I would blame Matt for the anger or blame my husband for the anger. I'd be like, he did this and that's why I'm so mad. But then, you know, as I started to go back, don't be, hang on, that's not really a reason for you to be so mad. And then I'd go a little step further back and I'd realize, what was it that first triggered the emotion? And usually, it came down to fear. And so it was a sense of vulnerability or anxiety of being sort of left behind. Anyway, and so that really allowed me to start, you know, healing myself, in a way, was to realize that the story that you tell yourself to excuse your behavior isn't necessarily always true. And so I started to get better, like my breakouts happened less and less, like instead of being every day, started to go like twice a week and then it was like maybe once a month, once every two months. But at the time, I was also still self medicating. I would drink. I can hear this little child hanging on the door. And, you know, my parents were both addicts. And in Iceland, there's kind of a funny routine of where you work five days a week, and you just work really hard those five days a week. In the evening, you might go, you know, have a cup of tea or something with your friends or, you know, hang out with your, I would hang out with my grandmother. Sweet, Jesus. There's the culprit. And so that lock is not very effective, is it? So where was I? Um, start to backtrack the story. I can backtrack with you. You've been mentioning tea with your grandmother. Yes, yes, yes. So, and Iceland, the tradition is kind of like, you don't really drink. During the week, we work really hard. But then when the weekend comes, it's like everybody binge drinks. And you just, you go to the bars and you drink, drink, drink, drink, and you're at the bars until like six a.m. in the morning and then you start wandering home. And because of that structure and how that, um, like social framework was, that's how, you know, that kind of kept me on just that same role as all of my friends. But I've realized over the years that as soon as you remove a limitation and going past that original line becomes the new norm, it is very hard to bring the limitation back, at least for myself or for people that have sort of addictive tendencies. Um, and when I moved here, American society is a lot different. Like they drank on a daily basis. They drank sometimes like with their brunch or, you know, things like that. And as soon as I started adapting to that, my, um, sense of like control and self-discipline started to really suffer. And, you know, when I first moved here, I didn't really have anybody here. I just had my husband. Um, and then we had our first daughter, Annika. And it was during that timeframe where I really started to go down. Um, my like OCD was really ramped up. Like I would be cleaning, cleaning, cleaning all the time, trying to make everything perfect all the time, which in a way is just a way for somebody to try and exert control and feel like they have control over something. Um, but it got to a point where, you know, I would go for a walk in the afternoon and then around time that I was making dinner, I'd open a bottle of wine and I drank like a whole bottle of wine in the course of the evening. And, you know, that would alleviate some of my own emotional discomfort. Um, but oftentimes, you know, if I drank too much, I would then have some sort of emotional outburst. If I, if anything came up or I felt vulnerable, I felt hurt or something, I would lash out. Um, and I started waking up as well every morning, feeling unbelievably depressed to the point where I didn't want to be alive. I had a very sort of, um, skewed perspective of my relationship with my husband. Um, and that's when I started going to seek out help. Um, and I, you know, I started off at first, went to go see my counselor. She put me on a medication and that it was very strange the first time I tried medication and I wasn't, I was very resistant to doing it because of watching my parents go through that self-destructive cycle even with the medication. But, you know, but the thing is that when you have a mental disorder, if you have an addictive nature, if you suffer from depression and anxiety, you have to be extremely careful. Like you have to accept the, you know, accept the reality that you can't really mess around with your brain chemicals and alcohol and other drugs, they affect your, you know, serotonin and dopamine. Like they cause these false releases of serotonin or, you know, unnaturally stimulated. And what that does is over time it makes your brain less and less capable of releasing those chemicals itself. Anyway, I started taking the medicine and it was very strange at first because it was like going from this sort of haze where everything was just, you know, unbearable in a way where life was really dark where I didn't really see a point to the future or anything like I was just kind of holding on by a thread for my daughter. And as I started taking the medicine, it was kind of like I got pulled back from that state of mind and my sense of self-esteem, my sense of self-reliance, my sense of like knowing who I was sort of started to stabilize. And so I did that for I think about six months and then I felt like I was, you know, I had my feedback underneath me and I was capable of trying to go without the medicine. I also had some side effects from the medicine that I didn't care for, which was why I came off of it. It wouldn't make me feel really, they call it locking in. It's where you can't break your own attention. Like you just, I would, my daughter would be trying to talk to me. She'd be like, mom, mom. And I'd be like stuck and not able to switch my attention, even though I knew she was there and waiting for me. And that was very uncomfortable. And so then I came off of that medicine and I tried really hard to maintain the perspective that I had on the medication as I came off of the medication. So meaning like the way that I felt the sense of sort of lightness that it had given me, the sense of equilibrium. I try to maintain that. And as I came off it, I went off of it slowly, like, you know, responsibly under supervision of a doctor. And I was able to maintain that for a little while. And everything was fine up until after Una's birth. So that's about three years that I was able to be off of medication. And so we had Una and everything was fine. And then kind of during or shortly after she was born, and also especially during the time that I was weaning her, she was no longer breastfeeding. And so just so that you know, and anybody that's watching this knows, when you breastfeed it helps your body release oxytocin, which is very relaxing, but also a pleasurable brain chemical. So breastfeeding always sort of helped me sort of stay lifted. And so when I would stop, the depression would kind of come back with a vengeance. And I remember sitting on the back deck and like the girls would approach me and I'd get really irritated by like sound and stimulation. And I would react in a way to, you know, people approaching me or noise and so on in a way that was unnecessarily sort of hostile or aggravated in a way. And I remember I went and I was sitting on the back deck and I tend to really love being outside. I love nature. I love watching the trees. I love like hearing the wind rustling them. And so I've always been able to draw a lot of like joy and calm from being in nature. And so I would go and I would sit on the back deck and I would try very hard to feel that sense of joy. I would try and seek out the positive emotions. I would try my hardest to make them there. And I realized no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't get there. Like I just, I could not feel any positive emotions. They were just not available to me. And so at that point I went back to my counselor. I'd been in talk therapy that whole time, but and decided to go back on medicine. And I got the same medicine again. And it was fine for a period of time. And then at a certain point, you know, the side effects started to come back where it gets keyed in and locked in and unable to break my attention. And then, you know, I found that uncomfortable. And so I weaned myself back off of it. And again, tried to sort of maintain that equilibrium. And that worked pretty good for a while. But then it started happening again. And oftentimes like, I wouldn't really notice my sense of like joy and happy chemicals going down until it was at the point where I was waking up in the morning. And as soon as I woke up, I would just like get a panic attack and start crying. And, you know, it was, you know, very sort of unpleasant experience. And so then I went back on the medication. And I was on it for a while until we decided that we wanted to have another baby, which was our key. And it took us actually two years to get pregnant with him. So for those whole two years, I was off of medication. And I was able to sort of maintain to some degree that equilibrium. But then probably happened before I was pregnant with him, but his pregnancy was extremely hard on me. Not just physically, but more so mentally, because I didn't want to be medicated with a baby in my belly. Like I didn't want to be putting anything into my system that could, you know, harm him in any sort of a way. And so, you know, I wasn't, but then about, I want to say two trimesters in so about six months into it, I was, you know, waking up every day, not wanting to be alive, waking up just wanting to not feel like the excruciating. It's very hard to explain, but like the pressure of your emotions makes it so you would all almost rather not exist than have to feel that sort of debilitating weight of misery. Like it's very hard to put words to it. And so at that point, Matt took me back to my counselor and, you know, we spoke to her and she told me that, you know, it was very obvious that I needed to go back on medication. And because I was pregnant, she changed the medication I was on to one that was like supposed to be better. And again, I had that experience of being like in this zone where everything feels like overwhelming. And like the world is almost coming to an end, it's caving in on you, and you just can't tolerate it anymore. But then as the medication started to work, I would get sort of pulled out of that. And it's very strange to all of a sudden go from waking up every day, wanting to die to all of a sudden being like a normal person that wakes up and does normal people stuff like make your kids breakfast and go to work. And it was just such a relief. But then I remember it was a really hard decision for me to decide to go on the medication while I was pregnant. But we kind of weighed the cost benefit analysis of which is going to be worse for the baby, the endless stress, chemicals and misery that is floating around in your body, or, you know, getting the medication so that you have a better chance of survival. Because again, I was kind of only holding on by a thread because of my kids, because I didn't want to put them through what I went through. And I went, I remember we got the prescription and we went to the pharmacy. And I tried to hide the fact that I was pregnant because I was ashamed of having to need to go on the medication. And the pharmacist goes and she says, you know, medications like this are not really very good for depression. You should try yoga and going for long walks. And I remember like my sense of absolute like, shame and the sense of like, oh my God, I'm, I'm doing the wrong thing. Like I'm making the wrong decision. I shouldn't be doing this. And I came out and I told Matt and he was, he was so furious counselor. Because I was, you know, when you have somebody that has strong like suicidal tendencies, I have attempted suicide more than once. And I have come very close once where, you know, it's kind of amazing that I actually made it through. And that, that experience kind of made that when I first tried that suicide and almost lost it, that was when I decided to stop drinking. And that was before this pregnancy. So I hadn't been drinking or doing anything bad for, you know, or anything, you know, naughty habits and negative habits for about two years before that pregnancy and that sort of emotional breakdown. And because I wasn't doing any of those self-medicating things, I was able to maintain a better equilibrium for a longer period of time. But I still was not able to do it on my own. And it was kind of at that point when I was doing everything correct, I was like, trying to sleep on a consistent schedule and eat everything healthy and drink lots of water and had no negative habits. It was at that point that I kind of realized that this isn't a matter of willpower, because my perspective up until that point was kind of like, don't be a pussy, get up and just, you know, make it through somehow. But that it was a matter of, you know, a chemical imbalance in my brain. And so I'm still on the same medication that I got during that pregnancy. And again, I had that experience of sort of getting pulled out of the dark and the light, sort of all of a sudden, you know, coming in. And I've been doing, you know, well myself since then. And I like the medication that I'm on. I don't really have any side effects. I feel very stable. I feel like a normal person. And it's a huge relief to be able to, you know, get up every day and do something productive and enjoy like the natural beauty in your children and your relationships. And like, it's for me, and from my perspective, that's like an amazing gift. But since, you know, I found this equilibrium, I've lost a lot of friends. And so besides, you know, losing my mom and almost losing my own life, we've lost a number of friends to suicide. And it drives me crazy because there is so much to boo out there. People feel guilty for needing the medication. They feel like it's a cop out. They feel like it's a failure of their willpower. It's a failure of character. And that perception is like poison to people that really, really need that assistance. And I'm not saying that there isn't a ton of, you know, millennials out there or, you know, like the storyline kind of goes like, or abusing these medications and, you know, taking them because they just don't feel very well for a little bit. And it's messing them up. And that's, I'm sure that's true for some people. But for a lot of people, that's not true. And for those people that that is not true, the sense of shame that comes along with having to get a help from an outside source can kill them. And somebody that wakes up every day, for example, in my shoes and feels miserable and didn't want to be there anymore, yet I look around me and I see I have a man that I love and that loves me and I have healthy children that need me. I have a nice house and a beautiful garden. I have everything that I could ever want to be happy, to be that I should be grateful for. And but at the same time, I can't feel those emotions. And there is a sense of shame and guilt that you carry within yourself for not being able to feel the gratitude that you're supposed to feel because of all of the things that you have around you because of your fortune. And so the exterior pressure, if you put that on top of it, on top of already knowing that you're broken in this way, it prevents people from seeking help. And so we've had a few people that have died. And like I mentioned, Carl in the last video, he's one of, I want to say three or four now that have died in the last few years from suicide. He would call me and he would say things like, I don't want to do this because I don't want you to have to go through it again. Like you went through your mom and I would do my very darned us to try and express to him like, listen, you have to one get help. You have to find someone to talk to. You probably need to go on medication and you have to stop drinking. Like you have to stop the self medication, self-medicating. Because if you don't stop that and you just take the medicine on top of it, it's not going to like help you get the balance that you need. And so, you know, people that struggle with this, they tend to self-medicate at first. And then that becomes like this crutch habit. And the idea of going without that crutch can seem like, it can just seem like it's going to be almost impossible. Like, how are you going to make it through? And so, you know, when I decided that I was going to stop drinking, it wasn't so much the not drinking that was a problem. It was the apprehension of what life was going to be like without my crutch, without my, you know, self-medication. And so, I kind of realize I know my own brain and my own thinking process fairly well. And all or nothing concepts for me can sort of make the problem worse. Like, if I don't want to eat sugar, then I say, okay, Monday, I'm going to stop eating sugar. And then I'll like binge on sugar up until Monday. Whereas if I say, oh, okay, you can have sugar, but just, you know, try to focus on eating protein and vegetables, I function much better that way. But the tendency tends to be to go for that all or nothing. And when it came to self-medication, I knew that I kind of had to do the all or nothing, because I wasn't able to maintain a sort of detached, easygoing relationship with that. And so I kind of tricked myself by making a bet with Travis and a few other people that it was going to be three months, no drinking. And at the end of those three months, I was allowed to start drinking again if I wanted to. But I knew deep down that once I got to that three month point, I wouldn't want to go back. And I remember Travis was like, well, that's stupid. Why would you do that? Why don't you just quit if you want to quit? And I was like, well, because that the concept of just quitting going cold turkey was slightly overwhelming. So, but that it worked for me. And I would like people sometimes wonder that drinking around me is going to, you know, bother me or something, but it doesn't. I don't care. And the reason why I don't care is because I realize the incredibly huge improvement in my life being without it. And I've regained a sense of childlike joy and simple things like, you know, playing with my kids or doing some arts and crafts or gardening. Like it's a lot easier for me to access the appreciation for life without needing, you know, a crutch to help me like feel happy. But I suppose like my frustration lies in the social narrative and pressure that people feel over mental illness, over not being able to, you know, be that happy, forward-going person without assistance. And I just think that one of the reasons why I'm so open about talking about this is because I know there's lots of other people out there like me. And I know there's lots of people out there like me that have that feeling of just pick yourself up by your bootstraps. You can do it. You have to keep going. It's a matter of willpower. You must be in control. And, you know, you can make it so far on that, but a lot of times that's just not enough. And I think it's dangerous when people add a sense of shame on top of seeking out help because there is a lot of people out there that desperately need it and they won't go, you know, they won't go get the help they need. And it kills people. Like it literally kills people. Yeah, well, you pretty much said it, but one of the things which definitely stood out for me and really, I really caught it when you mentioned it the first time on our last chat was you mentioned that you have that attitude of pushing through and willpower. And that's kind of how I am as well. And in the past, I had that idea, I guess it's a common idea, a misconception about depression that, oh, it's a choice and it's only weak people have it. Later with the more I learned about it, and the more reason I got in my brain, I started to realize it's not a correlation. They're two separate things. And that also made your story very powerful for me to hear a very specific example of your story where you had that attitude and you definitely have, you know, the guts, the willpower and everything you have all of that. But that doesn't mean depression is still out of the question. I guess it's not out of the question for anyone. And one of the reasons I wanted to talk about this on record is part of it is, yes, I'm interested myself to better understand it in case I get exposed to it more and more. But the bigger reason is the same one that you said it, talk about it because not everyone dares to talk about it. And too many people either blame the people who do that, or as you mentioned yourself, people afflicted to themselves like internally, they blame themselves for that. So I think it's so important. And one more thought that came to me is it also they're such a big difference. It's so easy to judge people that haven't went through an experience. Like I was never a very judgmental person, but I can still see the difference years ago, when I would be exposed to the subject of let's say divorce, I would have a very different perspective about it than right now when I'm actually past a divorce. And I'm like, now when somebody comes up and says, oh, they got divorced or started started criticizing someone, I'm like, well, you know, you don't know the whole picture, you know, just don't go blaming the people so quickly. Because when you go for that experience, it makes you more wise and you understand that there's always more than just good, bad, or easy, difficult. And I think it's, for me, it seems it's important to to kind of use that same approach to anything, especially things like our health in terms of think whenever we have that thought of, oh, this is just to make believe this is an illness of weak people or even blaming ourselves to realize that we potentially don't know what it really is. And we shouldn't just make that clear conception. I mean, I used to be like you in that sense. So when I was like, you know, I would have mental breakdowns periodically, like I had my first major mental breakdown when I was 17. And I think I've had a few I kind of, I don't really, I don't dwell on the number of breakdowns that I've had. But I remember the first one at age of 17. And I really didn't understand what was happening to me. But I used to be like that, I would look at people that were suffering. And I would think to myself, why can't they just power through it? Why can't they just make the decision that they're going to be have a happier life? And I think it's very normal. I mean, and I say this as well, because I've raised, you know, at least one of Matt's kids through the teenage years. And because of mine and Matt's age difference, the age difference between, for example, me and Liam, his younger son from his previous marriage, is only 10 years. And he is also very mature and intellectual. But I first met him when he was about 10. And he hated my guts in the beginning. He would make my life miserable. But, you know, he warmed up to me over time. But I could see in him that he was developing the sense of idealism. So where he would find, you know, this is the right thing, and this is the wrong thing. And there wasn't really all that gray zone in between. And I could relate to it really well, because it wasn't that long ago that I had gone through that same perspective of being like watching people do stuff that I'm like, well, that's not going to help anything. So that's bad. This is the right way to do it. I remember it was Leah who told me at the time, but that was actually a very normative psychological development for teenagers and like young adults as they are separating themselves from their family and kind of starting to form their own ideas of reality and how they want to live their life. And so in my sort of idealist time frame, I was very much the same way. Whereas like you just can't let misery get the best of you. Like you just you can't do that. And I would watch people suffer and I wouldn't have much empathy for it. Even though at the time I was having my own ups and downs, they were just I didn't really understand them, you know, at the time. And like I told you before, I was masking a lot of my sort of depression symptoms by having these like intensive like relationships where I thought, you know, everything was going to be wonderful. And then as soon as that initial sort of lust or, you know, relationship excitement wore off, I'd be back to where my own baseline was, which was, you know, significantly lower. This also affected me a lot for my education. Like I was had a very hard time going to school. I'm smart that I can study, you know, before a test and get a good grade, but my attendance would be horrible because I just couldn't bring myself to show up to be there, to have people looking at me and I would feel kind of see through because on the inside I'd be miserable and scared and like anxious and unhappy and feel like incapable and all these different things. And so being in a group, you know, in a space where there's tons of other people was oftentimes very sort of overwhelming and isolating. So despite the fact that you're surrounded by humans, you feel unbelievably alone. And I struggled with this through my teenage years and my parents at the time being kind of sort of liberal hippies, Bohemian hedonistic hippies, they would send me to all these like naturopath doctors. And so I went to like the doctor that does like a foot pressure massage that's supposed to like help clear your organs or, you know, all this other stuff. I went to one that like looks at the iris in your eye and like tries to decipher everything that's wrong with you, based off of like, I got tears here, Roca, you're supposed to tell me this. Sorry, I didn't know that's my job. You know, and so I would go through to all these and I did like acupuncture and all these different things to try and like change my diet. So I went through multiple different cycles of trying to improve my sense of being through all these like holistic exercises. And as we touched on the same with yoga, like I tried to use yoga the same way and use meditation the same way to try and fix myself. But I never went to a counselor. I never, you know, and so a lot of times that's one of my sort of issues with although I love nature and I love natural medicines and so on, but I think there is very much there's quite a bit of danger and proposing that you can fix certain types of problems with things like homeopathy or pressure massage. And so to some degree, I think that kept me struggling significantly longer than I maybe needed to have been struggling. Yeah, so yeah, I guess there's two thoughts in my mind and one of them is I did notice that there is that new age tendency of people, I guess it's it's makes the situation again yet again worse when people not let's say the first angle is where people just think that depression is made up thing or another level is where people think that oh you can just don't go to the doctors, you know, go to all these alternative therapies and and kind of pushing people towards direction. I think that that sounds again unwise and I hope that some people who are listening to this conversation will realize that that's not a good suggestion. And another thing which I wanted to also ask about you mentioned that denial of those existing symptoms. And I was wondering, so in terms of diagnosing depression, where where does that usually begin? Or let's say a person, if we imagine it that this way that a person is listening to this conversation, and he's questioning, you know, am I depressed or should I go to see a doctor? Where is that line where the person should or is it the case where if you have doubts just go and see a counselor or what would you say? Well, there's different types of depression that people can suffer from, and it can be combined with other sort of mental illnesses, like you have unilateral depression, which is where people just going to have the depression, then you have bipolar depression where people go, so if you imagine here's a baseline, they go into depression, but they also go up sort of into forget the word for it now, mania, like bipolar basically. And then I mean, I think that talk therapy is good for everyone, regardless of whether you have depression or not, because I think most people to some degree have like internal conflict and baggage and damage. And a lot of times we need help unpacking it because the tendency tends to be to just squish it down there, pretend like it never happened, and keep going. And when we do that, the side effect often is that it explodes out when you don't expect it, like something, you know, sort of triggers a reaction from you, and then you have years of sort of, you know, back loaded suffering explode out. And so I think talk therapy is great. And I think that, you know, the concept of it being embarrassing to any sort of degree is, you know, ridiculous. As far as if you think that you are suffering from depression, I would say if, you know, if you have even the slightest, I, you know, suicidal thought, it's time to go talk to someone. And, you know, I had a multitude of suicidal thoughts for a long period of time before I went to go talk to someone. And it's not, it's not like something that you can fix overnight, but it is something that you can live with and have a good life. Okay, having depression or anxiety or being bipolar, or, you know, any myriad of mental illnesses is not a, it's not like necessarily something that has to cripple you or control your life. You can take the steps to improve your sense of wellbeing. And there's like one thing that I learned going through this process and being able to make it out of that state of mind, being able to make it sort of past those difficult times to where I am in my life now, where I have stability and, you know, joy and appreciation for all of the things that I have is that things always change. Time doesn't stop, it keeps passing. And as time passes, things always change. And one of the dangers of, you know, depression and things that I've, I, now I look back at my, you know, losing my mother, I wish that I had had the understanding back then to realize what she was going through and to help her hold on a little bit longer, because she gave up, you know, when she was at the bottom. But life doesn't have to stay at the bottom the whole time. You can bring it back up. And so I think that's a really important concept for people to think about is the fact that you might feel like there's no way out and that you'd be better off not existing anymore right now. But that doesn't mean that you're going to feel that way, you know, two weeks from now, if you go get help. And I think, you know, and for me now, when I run into people that I think have similar struggles, that tends to be what I try and express to them is like, just hold on a little bit longer. If you can hold on a little bit longer, things will change. And especially if you, you know, have the courage and determination to make the changes that you have to make in order to get your life back. And, you know, I think for a lot of people that means that you have to kind of clean up your life a little bit. And that can be daunting, for sure. But, you know, the same way as if you are diabetic, you can't really eat tons of sugar all the time. And you have to take insulin. Okay, because otherwise bad things are going to happen to you. And so the same way if you have a mental illness or a mental disorder, you can't play around with, you know, drugs and alcohol. And you have to take your medication and sort of accept the reality of, you know, maybe I'm going to have to take this medication for the rest of my life. And that's not a a judgment or like a failure of my character. That's my desire to, you know, take charge of my life and keep living and be present and enjoy it. Because for all I know, we only have the one. And I don't want to waste it in misery. So did that answer your question? Yeah, absolutely. Actually, I was just about to comment that there were a number of questions that popped into my mind. And as you spoke along, you answered a number of them. So but there's one minor one, which is still left on my list. And you mentioned that your depression became more present after getting birth on both occasions. I mean, your two daughters. I also met and seen some cases where there was depression after getting birth. And I was wondering whether is a recurring thing that happens once in a while, or is just a coincidence, the connection between getting birth and depression in terms of the chemistry changing or something along those lines. So I'm going to preface this by saying I am not a neuroscientist. But from my experience and research, your sense of well-being is quite related to your hormones. And so, especially for women. And so for example, estrogen is a sort of uplifting hormone. It can be and bring about more excitement to give you more energy, whereas progesterone is a little more relaxing and calming. And I've I actually use birth control as an additional part to maintain my stability, because I have very bad like PMS or PMDD or something where for the week before I get my period, again, I would have become unbelievably depressed. So I'm on a specific birth control to try and help me like minimize that change in hormones that makes the depression sort of drop. And like I told you earlier, when you're breastfeeding, you your body releases oxytocin, which is like a relaxing, happy chemical. And at the same time, your body, I forget, you know, because I don't want to say anything that's not wrong, but your body maintains a sort of specific hormonal balance that doesn't fluctuate a lot. Like oftentimes, you don't start to get your period until after you wean or until your baby's nursing significantly less. But once you wean, those hormones start fluctuating again. And, you know, sometimes it takes a little time to sort of even out. But I have every single time noticed a huge increase in my depression when I wean my kids. But at the same time with, for example, Archimedes, I was unbelievably depressed during my pregnancy. I also, you know, had a lot of stress going on, but I was taking the best care of myself and that I had, you know, in years. So that's not to say that even though that is a likely occurrence of that's like the only time that is going to pop up, because some women become very depressed during their pregnancy, some women become very depressed right after birth or shortly after birth, and during that timeframe where, you know, they might want to nurse their children. And oftentimes that leads to them not being able to nurse their children. And, you know, for a young mother, that in and of itself can make them feel like a huge failure. So I think women definitely have a little extra bit of challenge on that front because of the constant fluctuations of hormones. And, you know, there's like, you know, that stereotype concept of women being crazy. Kind of blame it on that cycle that's endlessly just taking you all over the place. So, yeah, and I'll say another thing. I'm very open with my kids about this, like my children know that my mom died. And when they were younger, they would ask me about her and I would sort of tell them, you know, I said that, you know, she died from sadness. But then they observed me go through these cycles. And then they started to become concerned that I was going to die from sadness. And so I explained to them, and I'm very honest with them about things that, you know, when you have, you know, either addiction or a mental disorder or so on for one, these things are genetic. So you guys need to be aware of that and be very careful about the decisions that you make in your life. I am very open with my kids about this because for one, I don't I've always sort of thought that when it comes to children, I love kids and my favorite job that I ever had was working with kids and that's always been what I envisioned for my future. And one of the things that I can't stand is people that sort of talk down to children or done everything down for children because and I don't ever want to lie to them so that they, you know, in order to shelter them from life, like I want to give them an accurate perspective of what's going on so that they can make informed decisions. And, you know, we, for example, don't teach our kids stranger danger. We teach our kids how to talk to strangers and they have a system for that. Because ultimately, eventually they're going to have to communicate with strangers on occasion. But so when it comes to depression and alcohol and drugs and all these kinds of things, I'm very open with them and I, you know, I explained to them that my mom suffered from depression and she was made a number of decisions that weren't helping her, that were making her worse. And I got to a point where she couldn't see the way out anymore and she gave up. But then I also expressly tell them, I am not doing that. I am making sure that I make very conscious decisions to maintain stability because I want to be alive. I want to be here with you. But then I also tell them these things are genetic and I take medication because I have a hard time, my brain has a hard time making these happy chemicals. And so I take a medication to help my brain make these happy chemicals. And I also explained to them, like I'm not going to tell you what to do when you're older. You will have to make these decisions for yourself. But these things are genetic. You know, alcoholism is genetic, depression is genetic, anxiety, like these are, there's a chance that one of my kids or more is going to suffer from the same illness. And I want them to understand that it's not something that's going to, it doesn't have to kill you, it doesn't have to defeat you. But you have to then be very responsible and not monkey around, not create bad habits. I always tell them bad habits are easy to make but hard to live with. Good habits are hard to create, but easy to live with. Just make good habits. That's one more, one more case where I, the question I wanted to ask, you kind of answered in the way you talked, but just to make it even more precise and clear, there's only a couple more questions that I have, but one of them is continuing from what you said, the advice that you would give to others in these situations. And from what I gather from what you said, the one seems to be the educational side of it, I guess to prepare the individual to expect that it can be, it can happen, that it's not a bad thing per se that there's nothing to be ashamed about and a continuation of that. And the other one that I picked up from you is having a sense of holding on, not giving up even when everything seems to be completely bad. So those are the two that I heard from you and they seem great. I think they sound exactly what are the right things, but is there anything else you would add or would you like to emphasize anything else in those two? Yes, I'll add to the part of why, another reason why self-medicating with alcohol and drugs is really dangerous is because when you're under the influence of other chemicals, it can inhibit your sense of reason or logical thinking processes and it can, it removes a lot of those filters and that can often lead to rash decision-making. And so making the decision to sort of abstain from mind-altering substances is, the reason for that is because that decreases the risk of making the mistake of giving up. So that's kind of, I realized for myself that I could maybe mask my emotions with self-medicating, but I was taking away my ability to recognize bad decisions in time, if that makes sense. And yeah, and another thing that is I think very hard is that if people are alone and they don't have anybody to help them, they don't, oftentimes you'll have people that do have people there to help them, but they won't accept the help. And I think that's very clear, for example, in Carl's case, I think Ella did everything that she could to keep him holding on, but he wouldn't necessarily take the steps that he had to take in order to hold on for himself. And I've been able to take these steps and I'm very grateful for it, but if you don't have a sense of meaning, if you don't have a sense of purpose, then I think you have an extra challenge there. And I think I'm very, to some degree fortunate in the sense that I lost my mother this way, because it made me very hyper aware of what I would be doing to my children if I made a selfish decision to just cut out. And so I think that that's one of the things that I think people have to be really careful about you know, sort of pushing that taboo willpower concept out there when it comes to mental illness. And you know, if you know anybody that struggles that way, it can mean, you know, it can make or break whether they survive. If they have somebody there that's willing to, you know, pull them out of bed and drag them on a walk or, you know, help them go to see help by picking them up and not letting them, you know, bail out and taking them to the doctor. That can really, you know, I think that can really make the difference of helping somebody survive or not. But it doesn't, it's not a guarantee. And so you can try your very best to be there for somebody. But ultimately they wind up having to, they have to want to make it through. That actually brought up just one more question for me. And I think it's an important one to you again from pretty much just continuing from what you said. It's advice for anyone who is in contact with a close person or any person who suffers from depression and how, what advice would you give for that person in terms of what to say, what not? Obviously there's no, you know, cookie cutter answer for this, but any guidelines you would suggest for a person who, you know, what to say, what not to say or what to do, what not to do in that kind of direction? I mean, I hesitate a little bit there because I don't ever want anybody else to take the responsibility of losing someone they love to depression on themselves because it tends, you mean that's not uncommon that if you lose somebody that you really love from depression, you turn on yourself or like, why didn't I do more? Why didn't I try harder? And that's not, you know, that's not a good way to feel. So, you know, if it doesn't work, it's not your fault. Like it's not the assistant's fault. And there is something to be said for having personal boundaries as well because loving somebody or being close to somebody that does suffer mental illness can be incredibly draining and challenging on anybody that's close to them. And I think the kind of make or break it point there is whether the person that is depressed or suffering really wants to make it out, really wants to fix their life. And I think that oftentimes, like I said before, has to do with meaning. Like, if you can help them find a purpose, if you can help them envision a life, you know, three months from now or two months from now after they try and clean their stuff up and, you know, go get help, take medication, just trying to give them that little extra nudge, like that little extra idea that life can't be better again, that you can wake up and have joy and not just misery. But at the same time, it's important, I think, for the people that are the support system to not go down to the ship. And it's very, I think it's very, very hard to strike that balance. And I think that's part of, you know, what went on with my mom and myself was like, I didn't really truly understand the depth of her suffering at the time. But I was also trying to keep myself afloat. I was trying to be strong for my little brother and my little sister. And, you know, so now I look back and I can think of all the things that I wish it would have done. But at the time, I didn't have the knowledge that I have now. And so being angry with your like former self or blaming your former self isn't necessarily productive either, in a way that almost just sort of takes one person that goes down and it's pulling the next person with them. So I'd say make sure that you know what you can do and how you can help. But you also have to understand, like, what is not your responsibility. And that at a certain point, you have to also take care of your own self in order to be able to take care of others. But most of all, I just say don't give up. Keep calling them. Keep knocking on the door. Keep trying to drag them out for some exercise. Keep, you know, sending them resources that you think might help them. Talk to them about not being ashamed or not feeling like this is a failure of character, of failure of willpower, that it is in fact, you know, an illness that should be treated like an illness that should, you know, taking medication, you know, would you ever be ashamed of taking insulin if you were diabetic? Is that somehow a failure of character? Is that somehow, you know, you not having the willpower to be able to eat all the sugar you want and not have blood sugar crashes. So I think that's what the conversation really needs to become about. And I'm, like I said before, I'm sure there's lots of people that do abuse medications, but people have to make their own responsible decisions. And so if people are going to take that sort of way out, that's their responsibility. But don't take other people, people sort of abuse of the scenario and transfer that on to every other single person that's walking in those shoes. Because I just said before, if you haven't walked a mile in those shoes, you really have no idea what you're talking about. And it's very hard to imagine until you've been there. So yeah, it's, I mean, I struggle now in my current state of balance and happiness and, you know, with the support of medication and therapy, I struggle to sort of picture waking up tomorrow and feeling like I just want to die. But I know it's a possibility because I've woken up lots of times that way before. And, you know, sometimes people just don't want to wake up that way anymore. So they stop waking up. But again, I think it's, to me, it seems so valuable to hear this, especially from you, since you have your own direct experience, and to kind of be aware of it in a way which I feel how I imagine should help to not panic when that happens. Because there could be like that inner voice, that deeper voice, which says, as you said, this is going to pass. This is not, you know, this is not the end of the world, which I think if a person is not, is completely unaware of it. And I think what helps me, and as I said in the beginning, I don't think I had to go for a really depressed state. But one of the things which generally helps me with emotions with my emotional kind of balance is an idea I picked up that emotions are, to a degree, are just emotions. Like if I feel, if there's sadness, it doesn't necessarily mean life is all bad and it's all crap. Like you said, things will pass. And I try to remind myself that at that moment. On the other hand, I noticed a lot of people, they're so tight to their emotional state, where they think if they feel bad, they so identify with it and they don't feel like there's, that's going to ever change. They kind of believe that, you know, this, if I feel bad, that means everything is bad. And while you said, when you said yourself, it's not really the case. If I feel bad, it doesn't necessarily mean the world is all bad. So I think hearing that and having that sinking in somewhere, sinking in somewhere in the back of the mind, I imagine that could be a powerful tool. Yes. And I think, like for, I, there was a time period where I was very into like the four horsemen of atheism. And there was sort of, there were part, part of something that they were talking about, I forget which one it was, was about, you know, that your emotions are not necessarily a reflection of reality. And like I've, we've talked about a little bit before, your brain is really good at creating a cause to explain whatever effect is going on. And when you're in a very sort of deep spiral of emotional and sort of mental agony, it can be very tempting. And I think hard not to do to come up with a reason for why you feel that way. I think one of the problems is people wind up spending a lot of time blaming external circumstances for their unhappiness. Whereas a lot of times there isn't even a reason, like your, I think emotions are a very powerful tool. And I think our intuition and instinct are a very powerful tool to help us understand certain circumstances and relationships with other people and so on. But we have to sort of take them as well with a grain of salt because your perspective is not necessarily an objective one. Your perspective is most often a subjective one. And if you don't understand that, and you can't sort of take a step back to look at the bigger picture, then I think you just sort of keep running down the same path without, you know, absorbing the information that you need to help you sort of we're off of that path. And I'll say one thing where yoga did really truly help me. Like for one, the skepticism helped me a lot sort of, you know, question my own thinking and question, you know, my feelings versus reality in a way. But yoga and meditation definitely, like meditation, especially helps me a lot in breathwork in the sense of rerouting sort of neuro pathways. And so what happens is like, when you keep having, you know, there's something that comes up an emotion that comes up, and you go to a certain reaction to that emotion, the more often the more frequently that you do that, the stronger and stronger the neuro pathways towards that reaction become. And I found meditation to be very helpful in the way that it allowed me to sort of, you know, if I slow my breathing down, it slows the heart rate down. And it sort of helps to pause that, like, the physical mental feedback loop, because they kind of go together like your body has a reaction, the brain has a reaction that goes back and forth and it feeds into each other. And using meditation, you can sort of, you can become aware of your triggers, or like you're the stimulation that sets you off basically, you become aware of those, and you can start to catch yourself a little bit earlier and earlier before you take off running down the old familiar path that doesn't lead to a positive and conclusion or experience. And so that way you can sort of, you can start to retrain your brain to have a more productive outcome. And also one of the biggest parts of being able to have a more productive outcome comes along with communication and learning how to communicate clearly. And that again comes kind of down to that sense of shame or our sort of desire to not want to accept help to be able to do things on our own. And so then oftentimes we sort of give people a different reason for why we are the way that we are. And we sort of expect them to just read our mind and know how to help us. But oftentimes they don't, like they don't know. And so learning to communicate clearly about how you feel in the present moment and what would help you, I think that is very important as well. Because that allows the people that love you to help you in a more productive manner. I think I have the very last question for this time. And that's the question that I asked also in our last, we just talked, the last question. Summary of conversation of the subject. You want me to summarize it? Yes, please. Um, oh, how do I summarize it? How about you go first and then I'll summarize it for you. Okay, great. Yeah, of course. Okay, I didn't even think about that, but actually it's a good idea. Okay, so my summary. Some from hearing everything you had to say and also relating to my personal experience as best as I can. I'd like to say that it seems the myth of depression is very dangerous. I mean, the myths surrounding depression, the belief that it's just an idea or it's a choice. And I would really want to encourage myself as much as everyone else to rethink that and to be more open-minded about that, to be more curious and to consider that it's something much more serious and that we're not protected from that either. That it can happen to any of us. And it could happen to another person that the last thing we should do should be to judge. And next step would be the again, a thing, a phrase you said that I liked a lot when you said if you're diabetic, there's no shame in taking insulin and relating that to depression. That sounds to me like a very powerful perspective. And even if we look at emotions in general, I liked a lot what you said through the conversation, but also emphasized at the end, the changing the relationship with our emotions or searching for some distance. I can only imagine how difficult that may should be in a state which is completely driven by chemistry. It's not just a regular emotional down, but it's something else. But still on all levels to do our best to remember ourselves that this will pass. This is not the very end state and nothing is going to change, but there's always the next state. And there's no shame in asking for help. Yes. I think to kind of summarize it, I think it's very important to stop people from talking about it and thinking about it as a decision making process, like a, you know, anything that has anything to do with the quality of your character. Because it's not. We have to understand that these things, I mean, they're chemical. This has to do with like your neurons and atoms and like the same as any other disease affects your body. It's a change of the DNA, change of the, you know, how the molecules, and I'm not a neuroscientist, but how all this works inside the body. That depression and mental disorder is the same thing. I also think it's very important for the people that do suffer from depression to recognize that they're not powerless. Like you might not be able to willpower yourself through it and make yourself better. But that doesn't mean that you have no say in it. That doesn't mean that you don't have to put the work in because you still have to put the work in. You still have to, you know, be willing to take the steps required to regain control over your life. And then for, you know, other people, I think it's, and there's a, there's like a simple saying that I hear and I like, which goes like, whatever in doubt, choose kindness. And, you know, so giving people the benefit of kindness of caring and not judging them for their struggle, I think is very important. We also, you know, other people from the outside can't take responsibility for somebody else's well-being if they aren't willing to help themselves. And so, I mean, it's a complicated issue, but I think a big part of it, you know, I think it would make a big difference to get rid of the shame associated with it because people that are suffering, they're already, they're already ashamed. They don't need any extra shame. I think it's not, that's not beneficial. And, you know, I think there is also just so much to be said for human connection. And another thing I'll say is there's a lot to be said about choosing your friends well and not associating with people that are going to drag you down into the gutter, but instead actively seeking out, you know, human beings that allow you to grow, that, you know, that inspire you to be your best self. And I think it's very important to find meaning. And if you don't have, you know, your own family or children or something to give you meaning, perhaps you want to go volunteer somewhere, you know, animal shelter, work with kids. There's so much stuff, like there's so many things in the world that we can do to give ourselves a sense of accomplishment, a sense of meaning, a sense of purpose. And I think that is also a very important key to sort of breaking that cycle. So did that summarize it? Absolutely, I think so. And I just think in general, I like that summary at the end, but at the same time I recognize that the talk itself and hearing what you had to say and your reflections, your insights, that's already plenty of very good knowledge and information for people. And I do believe that there will be people who will listen to this and either it will help them understand better as an outsider what's happening and how can they participate and first of all, at least not to judge. But also, I'm hoping that people who are going through this will have an experience to hear it because I always think that it's very powerful. It's kind of one of the phrases I discovered for myself recently that we as a society these days, we don't like to share the negative aspects of our life. And I think that that's a terrible thing we do to each other because then we look at Facebook and it seems everybody's living a great life and I'm the only one who is having trouble with realities, we all have our troubles. But I also think it's the point is also not to just go out there and complain and be a victim. And the different method that I came to appreciate is going through trouble eventually coming out at the other side and then being open about it, which I think this is exactly what we've spoken about today. It's a much more powerful experience than just pretending everything is great or just telling everyone how things suck. But instead, if you like this is an easy way to kind of think about that if you look at somebody, for example, let's say was a runner, and then there's a horrible accident and they, you know, they lose their legs. Of course, that's like a horrible scenario. But that person still has the choice to make of is that going to be what breaks you? Are you going to allow it to rob you of your, you know, the joy in your lifetime? Or are you going to overcome adversity? And I think like the there's, I feel like there's a lot of this victim mentality that goes around where people kind of they find an excuse for being miserable and you just accept that. And then you're going to be a victim forever. Or you can acknowledge that you have suffering and that you have a struggle. But you can still, you know, you still have ways of improving your life. And depression is not something it's not a death sentence. It is something that you can live with and you can have a, you know, wonderful life. You just have to make, you know, a few adjustments and a few good decisions along the way. And my biggest pet peeve as of late has been when I see people on social media, for example, you know, posting about the negatives of, you know, medication or that kind of stuff, because, because, you know, I, for one, I understand that it doesn't come from a place of experience in most cases. But because there are so many people that can't help it, that really do need that help. And there's, there's a lot, there's, there's a lot sort of weighing on our public judgment, literally, like you. And if we want, if you want to talk about, you know, saving lives and so on, one of the leading causes for young adults, especially for young boys, like after accidents is suicide. And I think we can sort of make a difference there. Yeah. Well, thanks for tuning in. It's more and more time. I wanted to thank you for this. And for the top, because again, I, as I said in the beginning, it's not easy to find people who wear their hearts on their sleeves. And also, you know, with addition of critical thinking and personal experience. So I really appreciate the, that we spoke about this. And, you know, that we spoke about this and I always have that vision that why I do want to have this on record. I have, I have plenty of appreciation for just having that conversation, but I always feel like it's great to have that on record because I do envision people listening to it and hearing things which they do need to hear. So I trust that there will be some people who will benefit from this. I hope so. And if you are listening and you are struggling, just try to remember that you can change your circumstances and time always passes. And I've gotten lots of, you know, messages from people before about, you know, that they struggle as well and that they appreciate somebody coming out and saying it publicly. And so I encourage, you know, anyone that feels like they need assistance to seek it out. And I have oftentimes in the past been quite open to, you know, talk to people if they feel like they need or if they want to come chat with me, especially if they know me. But so, you know, I think it's, I just think it's really important for us to maintain that connection with other human beings. And, you know, it's kind of like elephants. When you get a sick elephant, they'll flank the sick elephant to help them keep going forward. And I think we can certainly sort of mimic that as human beings. Well, great. Thank you very much again. I hope someone, I, I, well, and actually, I'll just put this very last bit on record, you know, and when I find I catch myself thinking that same idea, I hope this will help. Also, sometimes get to bump into those situations where there is even like some video which is released and only a long time later, not even for direct means, I get to hear that it did help someone. Just nobody ever told me. But I kind of learned to expect that, okay, it will help. You know, there's not even if I won't hear about it. Somebody did hear it. So I'm 100% sure it will help.