 So I guess I'm just confused what's going through this, not like this big gym rabbit, my pterodacty, I guess, I don't know if you do that, or, but I think we should be, I think we should be able to set it now, so right now I set it to be live, and the mic just seems to be looking, so I think we'll set it down, let's see. I can't check it at 6.30, it sounds as bad as it usually does. Okay, but I think that's what it was, I opened up the pterodacty and it was a 4.20 for some reason, so that pulled with the issue, which is weird, I'll check something else, reset, but I don't think so. Alright, good, yeah, you know what, that's okay. Okay, yeah, I'll let the perspective go. Okay, okay, okay, bye. Or, I think someone's gonna see us, or sit down. It's not gonna be there, and Mike went home today at 6.30, so I don't know whether it's on or it's off. Alright, I think it's gonna be okay, I'll check. You know what, I think it's gonna be okay if we go in this deadline, I think we only know it's two months, so don't worry about it. I think we might at some point just have to go with the most, who we can get the most out, you know, because it's looking, it's not looking good to getting forgetting everyone there all at once. Alright, call the order, less than properly for the public recovery board of school directors meeting. Comments, I'm guessing most of you are here to talk about transportation, who's here to talk about transportation, who's here to talk about all transportation. You can say anything now, but I was thinking of adding a second one. I will be playing in, and that's Thursday and Friday, and it's a good opportunity for a lot of student musicians in the central Vermont area to connect and perform. And that's it. Excellent. That's great. I think we're ahead of schedule already. I know. You're just immediately at this juncture. Superintendents report? Yeah, mine will be quick and painless as well. This past week, last week actually, I took the leadership team to an RTI summit, the RTI's response to intervention summit, and it is an enormous, very big conference around multi-tier system support, which is the same thing as in response to intervention, which is just what we call it here in Vermont. And it truly put the leadership team on the same course for our belief system around what makes an effective system, as well as have a much clearer idea of the components that need to be in place in order to have an effective system. So that was my goal overall. We've got surveys out to the principals to make sure we've gotten to that goal, and the rest of our leadership time for the next few weeks going forward will be us reflecting and talking about exactly where we are, really specifying goals, and then targeting where each school is currently and what we need to ensure out by the end of this year so that we can really get jump started on the next year. It was across the board incredibly well received by our leadership team. It was money well spent, and it will help influence our direction going forward. So I was very pleased that we chose to do it as soon as we did. I was going to do it later, and then we changed your mind and said, now we need to do it now. So I'm really excited about that. I still don't know what RTI means, even though you told me what it means. Just to intervention or multi-tiered system of support. MTSS. Same thing. So I'd be happy to field any questions about that. There's also some policy monitoring reports Tina asked when I sat down, if we have a schedule. Heather made up a schedule of all the policies that have been adopted. And so I'll monitor those pretty much based on the date that they were adopted. So we started the idea of when we will bring policies back to renew and revise. We have a schedule for that as well. Any questions? Comments other than this one? Great. Thanks, Libby. So on to budget. So again, I'm just going to talk about transportation. So why don't we reopen the mic now for public comment? Do you want to talk a little bit about how public comment is separate from board discussion? Yes. I think they're okay with that. Yeah, I'll give a little context. First off, I just want to say the board has received quite a bit of comment already in email form. The themes have been quite consistent that there is a need, particularly in the middle school, for expanded busing, that there are sections of the town that are simply not walkable, or at least not safely or practically walkable. I'd say we've probably gotten 15 plus such emails, give or take. All supportive. We haven't received, at least I've received anyone saying don't expand busing. So with that open public comment, public comment is meant for the purpose of the board listening. It's not a dialogue back and forth. So if we're not verbally engaging, it doesn't mean that we're not listening and taking your perspectives into account. So since we've got a fair amount of people, if you can limit it to about a minute of peace, that would be great. So whoever wants to go first, go ahead. And you don't have to, so. So this is the nature of my job. I am testifying as a private citizen, but not in my parent official. My son Owen is 10 years old. Can you introduce yourself? Okay. So my son Owen is 10 years old. He's a student at Main Street Middle School. He was always bus eligible at UBS. He, we live on the top of Berlin Street, so he used to take the bus. This year has been a really big transition for that. Our house is not probably walkable, both from a safety standpoint. If you'd have to cross down through the bottom of Berlin Street over to the co-op and then down through town that way. So on days like today, where it's icy, there are accidents always at the bottom of Berlin Street, and that's really dangerous. So I think if you know where it lived, you could picture that. I also sent around a petition. We had 207 signatures when I checked coming in here, all in support of busing from Montpellier residents. And we did that in a week and a half on Facebook. So we didn't go door to door. We just shared the news. So I think that speaks for itself. I also heard from a previous Montpellier High School student who had stressed their times of walking from Gallison Hill Road and how much they would have appreciated busing. Which they've let me share. So if you're okay with it, I can read that. Sure. Because I think sometimes the student perspective would be different than those of us here. And just for a perspective, that's up near U32. Yes. Yes, actually they pointed out. So they said as a student who lives on Gallison Hill in Montpellier, the same street as U32 is located, but for some reason still within the Montpellier public school system. This spoke to me. Thankful for the times I had to walk to school were few, but the long hour at least with many questionable street crossings and conditions. The number of times my parents had to juggle rides or carpooling were innumerable. Buses would have been an amazing alternative for those kids who live in the outskirts of town and thank you for your thoughts on this matter. So I think there's a lot of support from parents. I think there's support from students who are actually in the conditions now where they're walking or they're seeing their parents struggling to carpool. And I also think, you know, we read in the news tragic stories of kids getting hit and kids getting hit on, you know, lining up to wait for a bus. I can't imagine how much more unsafe it is for them to have to walk across really these roads. So it's my piece. Thanks Sarah. All the next. My name is Carrie Steyler. My family's not particularly residents. We live up off of Town Hill Road. We live beyond the end of the sidewalk, but close enough that we can kind of scuttle along the edge and get to the sidewalk relatively easily. But we've only had that sidewalk for about two years. I have always lived, oh, I have a six year old and a nine year old. So they're both in union. They both ride the bus on a regular basis. Maybe not every single day. But I would say nine percent of the time. I work in Montpelier. And I have with a few exceptions for the past 18 years. I used to walk to work. And the first winter that we lived there, I walked to work and realized that the snow banks were so big on the side of the road that they went right into Town Hill Road. And I actually had several times dive into a snow bank to get out of the way of oncoming traffic. Knowing that my children would have to do that even for a few feet on their way to school on a winter day is really terrifying. So I can't imagine that I would ask them to walk the mile in three quarters that it takes to get to school. Occasionally in the spring and fall, I will walk with them. It takes about 45 minutes on a really nice day to get the whole way to Union Elementary School with both of my kids. That's a really long walk downhill. We don't walk home because we tried to once and it took us an hour and 20 minutes. That's a lot of time for a 10-year-old kid to be alone by themselves wandering around town, particularly in a space where there really aren't a lot of people. Town Hill Road is mostly vehicles. There's no neighbors looking out for people. It's just kind of a road that connects Montpelier to Routou. I've also brought some comments from some other folks who couldn't make it tonight. And I hope that you'll give me a quick second to just share some of their points. Suzanne Aikenberry lives on Elm Street and brought up a few points for me. She actually is able to walk her son to school every day. She's not within the bus route. But she asks that I point out that she strongly supports creating bus service for the middle school because the large number of people dropping off their children at Bean Street Middle School actually makes it a walking hazard for people walking to school, either children walking to the elementary school or children walking to the middle school. They'll often go to Franklin Street and cross by the middle school because there's a crossing guard there. But even in that case, it's still often really difficult to see short people crossing the road. So that's a danger not just for the students who are there but for the people driving and regular walking across the street. The same thing she said, they often bike in the same thing as an issue because bike crossing is even more dangerous. And she said that often the car line at both of the schools, both Union and the middle school is actually, she said an environmental hazard but also her son has asthma and he'll often get an asthma attack if it's a really cloudy day and there's a lot of exhaust. And much of that car line is caused by parents not being able to leave their elementary school child at home to catch the elementary school bus because there's no middle school bus so they have to bring the middle school student down. So it's this catch-22 that parents are in with scheduling that causes this weird transportation crunch around both schools, not just the middle school, so adding a middle school bus would allow parents to actually put more kids on the elementary school bus and have higher resources for that too. And then another parent asked me to share just one more thing, I don't want to take too much time, but Sue Parris wanted to be here tonight. Her son, Erickson, just graduated from up here in high school, I believe last year, she has a child about to go up into fifth grade and they live on Hackmore Road which is at the end of Town Hill Road. They have no sidewalk, there's a very sharp S curve with no shoulders and low visibility and another road, Murray Road, coming right into it. That's the only space that her son will have to walk to school. It's absolutely impossible to walk on a nice day in the summer, it's extremely dangerous, and in the winter I just can't imagine putting a child there. So if he didn't walk that way he would have to walk through people's backyards, scuttle over to Saban's pasture, go down to Berry Street, it would be a really roundabout way to get a kid to school safely. And for two parents who are working, she and her husband both work, but she has an off schedule, she's a midwife and she's still having a baby right now and can't be here, she would like to but for her with an unpredictable schedule it's often very difficult for her to tell if she'll even be home to take her kids to school and having a bus that was reliably there at a scheduled time to pick up her children would make it a lot easier for both parents and her household to continue working. So those are my points, thank you so much. Hi, I'm Sarah Rosenthal, I'm a parent of a tenth grader and a fifth grader. I think since my fifth graders in school they've been able to take the bus for one year when they're both at the same, at elementary school together when the fifth grade was at the elementary school. Other than that, I have been shuttling my kids back and forth since then, either mainly from what Carrie had said before because you can't have my younger one wait for the bus and get the other child to school on time. So my mornings start with having to drive both kids to school and doing the, well it used to be UES and then Main Street and it's, I'm going to just echo what everybody else says, it's very congested, there's small streets, it's hard to get your kids around UES and Main Street, middle school, safely and it causes a hazard for all of the walkers as well. What we know and what there's been research to show and I didn't bring it today, I apologize, I can get it to the board, is that the research shows that when kids take buses all kids are safe. You got the stop sign that goes with the bus, more kids are transporting that way around so you have less just traffic around and the kids coming and going are safer. So all of our children will be safer if we have school buses and I will bring that, I will send that information to everyone. And I mean we all know that idling cars around UES and Main Street Middle School is not good for anyone, cosmetic kids, the climate, our whole community, our whole planet. So that's another piece I wanted to say. But I think for me one of the biggest issues and is equity. As we know most of the houses in the walkable parts of town are more expensive to live in and the houses in Montpelier on the outskirts of town are more for lower to middle class families who are working hard to make money for their family to support their family. And we don't have it and people on the outskirts of town and I'll say where I live in a minute don't have that same luxury as other families to be able to have their kids just go to school on their own. We have to transport our kids. There's no way, Carrie made that clear, Sarah made that clear. I could keep telling you where I live and what's going on, but it's not walkable. That's just the reality of it. I live at the top of Berlin street past the sidewalks right where Sherwood meets Berlin. It is extremely dangerous. There's traffic, there's accidents, they're quite frequently. It's when people start just flying by because they're getting to the Berlin border. It's just not safe. There's no way I can let my little guy go. I can't let him cross the street to go visit his buddy at his house. It's safety, but it really is putting families who are at a lower income at a disadvantage of other families. I have not been able to work full-time. Last year I tried for a year because I had busting for one more year from my fifth grader and I only had to worry about my high school student getting to school. Now with the lack of consistent after-school programming at Main Street and morning programming, I'm really stuck. I think I'm not the only family in that situation. So I think it's very important for the board to consider is mob pillar a community for everyone? Are we supporting all of the children who attend schools here? And I really feel like that is including the high school. Are we fair? Are we caring as much about these kids? Their safety, their families, financial well-being. And are we really caring about the environment? I think we need to put, you know, we really all have to take care of all of our kids and all of us. Thank you. Thank you. Hi there. I'm Kathleen Bryant. I have a daughter who's an eighth and a daughter who's an tenth and we live out on Elm Street. We started having this conversation with the board about six years ago and it's been, I echo what everyone else has said in terms of being far enough out but it's hard for my kids to walk. They like as much as they can but obviously now we can't do that. And they think it's really affected decisions about our careers and our work and we haven't been able to work full-time because we have to always be there to take our kids back and forth. And I just wanted to speak to that that I think that it affects people's work schedules and I think everybody else has said the other points but I also think that there's been some questions about high school kids and they take the bus and I definitely think that they would. So I just want to say that I think it's for everybody it needs to not just be the middle school but the high school as well and be really inclusive about the environment. So, thanks. Thank you. Hi, my name is Amy Gendron and I have three kids. One is in preschool but not at Union and then I have a first grader and a fourth grader right now. So, you know, the child was going to be going to middle school next year. This really interests me and it has since I moved to town but we live up Northfield Street off of Colonial Drive. It's about a mile and a half to the middle school and there are sidewalks which I'm grateful for. They just redid them in the past couple years but regardless, you know, when you get to the bottom of Northfield Street there's a four lane highway more or less so that even with the crossing signals it still makes me very nervous for my will be 10 year old at that time. So, you know, people don't always stop and they go right on red even when the blinking thing I see it all the time and so that makes me quite nervous and it's a mile and a half is pretty far in the snow and the wetness and down a steep hill and snow and rain and whatnot. So, that's one of my concerns and, you know, this affects me and like others have said I feel like my careers and my work schedule, I mean, you know, my husband goes to work very early. I should be at work by eight o'clock so that I can take care of patients but, you know, running late for that is quite stressful and I want to be able to continue to serve, you know, people when they're ill. So, you know, it's just quite stressful and then I heard, I was excited by the idea that there were maybe some morning programs at Main Street Middle School but now I understand those have ended so there's not really any early drop off that's an option and the idea of driving into that area to drop my kids off seems really intimidating. There's so many cars and sometimes, like, I just, I don't even know what to do like, I find myself in that area on occasion in the morning and there's so much going on that, you know, even for a kid to be crossing through there seems quite scary and that a bus drop off would be a lot safer and, you know, just seeing the buses go by I've never been on them to count the numbers but they don't look from the outside particularly full that maybe there is room for some middle schoolers, you know for my middle schooler to get on the bus with my elementary student maybe it wouldn't work out that way but maybe that would be the possibility just to get the other points I had made up and, you know, I had thought about the idea of the public taking the public transportation bus but my understanding is that service that goes down Northfield Street is going to be possibly changing and no longer going down our road and maybe everything is going to be going out of national life instead and then down this way so that doesn't seem like an option either for my child so and my children to be coming through so thank you for your consideration I think it's, you know, would be a great service to all parents not just working parents, you know if you say have a newborn baby at home or something like that but you've got to scuttle your, you know middle schooler, that's a lot of stress as well and it seems like we should be able to offer some things Thanks Thanks everybody My name is Jim Lawton I've obviously been before you guys a number of other times I think at this point people have made the point that transportation is desired and needed beyond elementary school the transportation committee that I was a part of I think went through a very thoughtful process of, you know trying to figure out why there's this need, you know, okay when the kid turns ten they can't automatically just get their selves around town we know that there's a need for transportation because we have three buses that do three bus routes and they're full essentially full, I think Libyan and Jim both at this point have checked that so we know there's a need just because those kids go into fifth grade or just because they come to the high school doesn't mean that they no longer need that transportation so I appreciate you guys finally really taking this topic under consideration and moving forward with it Thanks Jim Thanks everyone So an update on what you've been looking at and what you've been considering or do you want to get quick reactions to the board first? My only question I think is has there been much consideration about the equity with Roxbury it's something that we have we talk about equity between where folks live and incomes and all that kind of thing when we did the merger that we'd be okay with not busing Roxbury families directly from their doors but instead having them show up at a concentration location where they could pick folks up and then get them in here from there so using kind of a hub system in that way I think we felt the Roxbury folks felt like that was adequate but it's certainly a very different model than what we have in Montpelier and we're talking about changing Montpelier model to make it even more offer even more services in Montpelier and I really have some concerns about what does this mean for you know I think all the parents here and what we've heard from our Montpelier folks and advocating for Montpelier equity within Montpelier and I think that it's our job to be considering equity district-wide so we just have to really make sure it passes that filter for us thoughts or comments just to take Steve's comment just a little bit farther I want to make sure mainstream middle school has really been the focus of a lot of the feedback we've received as a board so far but again whole district all the schools let's not just focus the conversations strictly on mainstream middle school all the elementaries high school middle school really need to consider the entire picture and I would add that I think you've got a good point Steve I also from everything I know about Roxbury busing I'm not sure where it comes from the bus company or who makes that decision around what parts of the town are passable by bus or not and so they're sort of that logistical element that can't be helped then the other side of the coin is is that Roxbury Montpelier by nature are different geographically and population density and so I would be interested in the administration exploring all the possibilities within Roxbury as far as like how likely is it that we could bus every kid from their door however I'm not my understanding is that's never happened and it's partly because of the distance between you know you've got five students spread out you know from one end of the town to the other so in some ways it's hard to like have equal but it's like the you can't have exactly the same thing for the two different towns because there's just differences in the towns or maybe you can but as far as I'm not sure we can compare them on the same exact plane my last one graduated last year but for years I'm very sympathetic to what happens to your career when your children are not able to take the bus I was working in Montpelier for the most part and the bus was great for the union and then they transitioned to middle school and I wound up taking like a car so I wound up caravanning for other kids to school and I was able to do that for a couple of years but then my work closed its Montpelier office and moved everybody to Burlington and I wound up having to find a new job because I could not I could not figure out how to get my kids to school and get to work and I think that happens a lot around here and I think it's actually born more if I may say so by single parents I didn't have an option I didn't have anybody else to pick up the slack for me so speaking as a parent a separate from school board I would really like to see this move forward I just wanted to respond to the other district-wide approach to just say that I don't think transportation is ever going to be a one-size-fits-all solution in a rural state although it's important to be looking at the school I don't think I necessarily need the same approach in every part of the district because the nature of the the area, the age of the kids the nature of the school and whether it's an open campus it doesn't matter when you make transportation choices so I agree with that yes big picture but not necessarily identical solutions all the way across the district and across every school I think I'll say I do live at the top of Berlin Street that we don't now necessarily pick you up at your door so considering the possibility of pick up places that were closer so you weren't working walking a while and a half but were closer to your house might be possible like where Berlin and Evert come together for the for that neighborhood right so it's not what it feels like the Roxbury framework could probably be applied on another situation also well I'm extremely sympathetic to this as an individual who walks a mile tuned from work every day and fell twice on my way to work today and fortunately a neighbor came by and gave me a ride on the icy streets and I was definitely thinking of our students as I was heading into the office today one thing though that I keep thinking about throughout this all and it ties into some of what Steve and Bridget were just talking about is whatever approach we take and I'm sure this is on Libby's mind and the administration's mind I really want us to also consider the environmental sustainability of it if we have a bus that's picking up three or five kids and isn't totally full I you know I want to be able to provide a transportation solution whatever it is however we do it I want it to be environmentally and economically sustainable for our community and I think there are plenty of options to do that but that's my piece on that and I did that I wonder and we haven't heard from Libby whether you talked about the bus system that's the city bus system whether we can't talk to city bus system so perhaps they could help us out with this issue it's pretty much a good point they're not going to change their system for us they have to do that they made that pretty clear we've been trying to engage them for a long time I know that's the way Burlington gets their children to school public transportation a lot of cities develop Libby I'm going to put you on the spot the potential data question so thinking about the parents and kids the buses and cars do you have any idea how we're doing for the students in UES getting to school on time I don't have exact data I could pull out exact numbers from my head I would say that there's probably a bit of weakness because of transportation issues or kids on their own to get themselves to school with lots of fun places to stop in distractions might be a good word particularly here at the high school but a little bit at the middle school too I'd have to ask Pam and Mike for exact numbers around that and we wouldn't be able to name the exact reason for a lot of things to say the changes throughout the year have been December and January when the streets are really nasty but it gets worse or better in the spring I don't know if we can really nail it down to that great size but I could ask their perspective and I can imagine what they said it was just trying to figure out just anecdotally when you've got a day like today I was I passed by Union after dropping out of my childhood at Main Street at 818 and there was a line pretty much all the way down to School Street people wanted to drop their kids off and that was three minutes after start and the walking school bus which is kind of the one guided walking option was also about at Mangies so they were going to be five minutes late and the kids were slipping all over the place so it was you know weather definitely makes it worse on Wednesdays they do start 20 minutes later at MSMS I don't know about UES UES starts at the same time and MSMS starts at 8.20 or 8.15 8.15 8.15 other questions or comments? I'll just have it I run a lot and I I've been on all the roads the far ends of Montpelier in all sorts of conditions and places like Allison Hill Road Bliss Road there's no way you can safely walk 10 year olds can safely walk from some of those places to school so there are real safety issues and equity issues too that's where a lot of the more affordable housing is I think there's I don't have data to back this up but my guess is probably of higher levels of single parent homes in some of those areas so the challenges to the families that live in some of the places that are more challenging to begin with I think are steeper are you okay tell us what you've looked at I think Harry was nice enough to drive me around Montpelier and I was amazed that we have such a rural city in some spots I didn't know that, it was great so I've been looking into Grants and I've been looking into a couple different options and we have a meeting actually with Stacey at STA which is our busing company on Tuesday and the only reason why it's on Tuesday because it was the first time that Stacey Grants and I get in a room together based on schedules I mean I also have Jim and I have a meeting on Tuesday morning with several people who were here that was just planned for Main Street Middle School we have budgeted for two buses we don't know if we'll need two buses the high school question is interesting because we haven't necessarily dug into high school as of yet and I think talking to Mike McCraith I'm not sure how much of a maybe in the ninth grade for high school students there would be a desire for high schools just a different beast for many things you pointed out Bridget of kids coming and going and different places that they're going to and the wonderful community programs that we have here at high school it's just a different world and we have students from other schools for school choice coming in as well so I'm not sure about the high school we haven't necessarily put that on our radar just yet if the board tells me to then we will we've really been focusing around the history and those far corners of our town and they're going to propose to Stacey to not necessarily pick up every Main Street Middle Schooler but the ones who live outside of certain areas of our town so we're going to propose and we would change the bus routes of UES so that even not the kids on the buses we wouldn't just add to the current UES route what we're going to propose to her is if we add more buses that would level out more the UES kiddos on those buses so we could fit Main Street Middle School kids on them as well we do in our policy now, don't we not pick up closer to school we pick up all all our UES kids have access to the bus whether they take that or not whether they choose to do that I think this is the bus route in the first mile or whatever because I was thinking if you think a mile out for everybody yeah it's not an even mile yeah that's the problem, our town's not not even but I mean we've got a parameter determined by I don't know what for the little kids then it seems like that could be also a parameter for the older kids and we very well could think that way right there are places like I don't want to butcher the street that is pretty city like still and with a relatively easy way to get to town that could be a mile on a mile point three outside of the school away from Main Street Middle School but it's still a pretty easy walk through town to get there so there's some things to consider do you still pick up kids out there or not so there's just many things to consider in this and I want to talk to Stacy to see if our plan is even a viable one for the bus company another option is to do change school times considerably and do two bus routes so pick up elementary school kids get them to school then pick up middle school kids get them to school that's another option I think if the principals watch this video and hear me suggest that option they'd be shaking that's changing school schedules it's like that's a big deal so how would we do that well it's going to be a very big question for us that would change a lot of things in the school system so there's multiple options that we're considering we have to get with the bus company now to say what's the most feasible economically sustainable and best for our kids I guess I just have one question when you're figuring it out have you assessed at Union how many kids would actually wind up on the bus if there were buses for middle school there's many parents in the situation I'm in where my elementary school student couldn't take the bus because I had to bring the other ones so I'm thinking that your bus use is going to get higher at Union and I didn't know if that was factored in but it will change the bus ridership what we do know from Union from the STA is that because we asked them if our buses were full we were just on the Union buses and they said that if every kid were on the bus they would be full so it's not just adding kids on to the buses we already have I guess I'm a little not clear on process here in terms of we definitely want to delegate the fine decision making to the administration on this but we want to have it since we are in the process of policy rewrite we're also thinking about the values that come to this and how those values guide your decision making and I guess I'm sensitive to the values you all are kind of considering as you put this together where those values come from and which values you're prioritizing over others I'm really concerned about this Roxbury thing and I think that I would like us to make sure that we have really process that we have no participation from the Roxbury community in this conversation even our language in this is very much about our town rather than our towns and I really think that we need to be cautious about moving forward with a new busing expenditure without having a really rational value system that creates whatever we create in other words we need to be basically be able to document why we're doing it the way we're doing it so I just want to caution us not to do this because we're hearing a lot of concern about this in the community right now but I think that most of us would like to bus everyone and that we believe that it's environmentally better and it's better for equity and all those other reasons and the problem is we're actually leaving a lot of people out of the busing and we're having to choose who we're leaving and the question so much is just a caution is just that we can all make sure that we agree on the values we're using as we go forward I think I would need to know more I would need to know more about that because I'm not I'm not positive but I don't know what you mean when you say which Roxbury students were leaving off buses so and I'm not sure I haven't heard while I've heard from Peeler community members from Roxbury community members but more because the bus is late sometimes I'm crappy weather like yesterday or the bus driver was driving too fast but not in terms of the service that we're offering them so I need to know more right no all I mean by that is that if a parent has there's an expectation for if we want to talk about the equity of where people live and their income we have to look at Roxbury as an even lower income community than Peeler in many areas the requirement in the economics of a family unit in terms of having to allocate time to move their children around their kids are not going to be walking from their home to the Roxbury village school so that they can get picked up by a bus they're going to be dropped off there I mean maybe there's some kids I'm sure there's some kids close and who do that but in many cases the parents are still basically bussing their own kids in their family trucks and cars and so what we want to do is think about what how much are we making them do that and whether that's consistent with what we're doing in Montpelier also if they're driving them two minutes and there's no big deal that's great but it's just I just want to make sure we're doing apples to apples you know the density questions the feasibility of those things are important from an economics perspective but not so much from an equity perspective I think it's interesting that you haven't heard from Roxbury because with the new system new bussing it seems like if what we're doing now wasn't working we would have heard or they would have heard but I don't know that and it is safe to say that the middle school and the high school families what we have right now is a huge load off of those families we've moved in that direction and it really is I don't think there is experience in how we're going to be able to see the equity between the two communities on this because it's it's not practical for a Roxbury bus to go door to door and pick up all the kids it's just not practical well like in Budsies it was only four years ago that the bus actually went on a single dirt road in town before that it was picking up the children on Highway 12A or 12 they had certain locations where the bus would stop and pick the kids up and some of this conversation one day, two days ago there was a hiccup with the bus the bus driver thought it was a holiday but didn't it was a strange morning waiting for the bus that didn't come but the interesting thing is when I asked my son after I picked him up to the bottom we went over the walk up and we were talking how did school go were there any kids out because the bus wasn't there he said no everybody in this class and again it's we had five students absolutely I do know that there was five students absolutely who knows why they were out sorry, six year old perspective is kind of exactly, that's probably a typical for their student population what it really is a lot of the parents tonight have said a lot of the parents on the feedback we've heard before it's tough managing your schedule to get the kids here and get the kids there if you choose to live in Roxbury you're choosing to drive at some point in time and not that it's easy or necessarily because you've made that decision but I think ultimately most families living up on the hill somewhere know that they are going to be driving and they'll be working schedules out whether or not that's always it's not always easy it's definitely not, I know that there are families who have had a hard time getting their kids to preschool in town I live at the UNI, we have a couple conversations about busing for preschool kids to make sure we have some clear expectations there but I do know that in the past maybe four or five years we had heard from families that if they couldn't use the village school they wouldn't be able to get their kids to preschool somewhere else so yes, transportation is a tough thing I guess, but we're expecting those parents to there's this different set of expectations so we're saying that we would expect a Roxbury parent to just handle it but we wouldn't expect a Montpelier parent to handle it and I don't think that anyone's saying that but it's really close to that I think that we've added busing services for Roxbury in the merger of the town so what we've got is some really good will right now I think and we've made a good step forward for everyone and I think we want to do that for Montpelier too and the question is then throw that out of whack again and now all of a sudden we hear from and say hey but you're adding tax dollars Roxbury tax dollars to do this and it doesn't seem like an equitable thing so I think I'm just wanting to be that kind of conscious a little bit about are we truly being equitable in terms of, if we talk about the economics of family income and distance from schools and the burden replacing on single parents and focusing on people who have to think about their jobs and how that it is still affecting those Roxbury families too and to the credit of Roxbury residents throughout this entire merger process they have said we have low expectations and we've heard that over and over again when it comes to transport we have low expectations so there's not like a big selfish demand or anything from Roxbury it's not that I'm not sure they said they had low expectations I don't mean about the whole school system but the transportation well but I think they were used to I think Vermont is like the dilemma we're in there are rural parts of Vermont if you live out on a dirt road I can tell you the buses don't go there because they can during two seasons of the year that would be the mud seasons so you know equitable is difficult they did say they were my pillar residents were actually advocating for more busing for Roxbury during the merger conversations then we actually brought it up as the problem like hey how are we going to do equity in transportation how is that going to work and Roxbury really like we don't really have equity in transportation it's just the way it is when you live in a rural town and we're like yeah but if you're going to if we're going to all be together we're going to have some equity in transportation and we're going to do you know the after school bus the extra curricular bus like that was something that we really the Montpelier folks really insisted on in that process so you know I think it's just to be consistent I want to make sure we think of these two towns as one district I actually forgot that piece of sorry Ryan I forgot that piece of the planning from earlier that I just thought of the Colonial Drive area there like that Roxbury bus already passes through and that certainly is not a full bus so that group of kids could easily so when we're talking about where we'd be picking up that we already used that bus so we'd already have that option I just forgot about that part of the plan sorry that's actually part of the point that I wanted to make in terms of equity I had that conversation with the folks in town and this has come up yes the bus coming from Roxbury is going to be coming through Montpelier it's going to be going past houses and obviously the Montpelier kids are going to be going for a longer bus ride it's inherent by nature but I do think we need to be careful to not start using that bus to make a ton of stops in town and essentially start an entire new route I think what you could do and I just talked to Stacy this is beyond my opinion yeah you you stop right at the bottom of Colonial Drive where those neighborhoods let out for the middle schoolers and just have the middle schoolers get on because it goes up into the neighborhoods with the UES bus but with the middle schoolers just stop at the end and have them get on at the end so it's not considerable so the concern is just making it even longer so I just said two pieces you had talked about the map I had the opportunity to see with Chris Hensey five years ago and there are actually the school district actually has maps with the the circles the radius around each school drawn out and that was used I don't know probably in the 90s or the 80s to determine which kids could walk and which kids would be bus and then I think there's consideration for difficult streets and neighborhoods but there are some maps in existence that we our last I know Chris Hensey and Brian have and the other point nobody in the town I think at this point is ever expected to endure service it doesn't happen now school buses bus stops bus stops bus stops and honestly not having I don't think he was even asking for anything in a lot of respects anything new we started in the school system these kids got bus to school and all of a sudden the buses disappeared we had buses and then they could take it away at an age that's you're adding bus routes it's just incorporating the other two schools into the same existing bus routes and the whole sibling thing is really an amazing factor in all this you hear it from a lot of parents it'll be true for anyone the kind of the lunacy of it all with the sibling issue that we usually don't talk about I think it's interesting the conversation around equity equity in white paper is a new research where you think about it from a policy perspective equity doesn't always mean people it doesn't always mean the same it means well actually it doesn't mean the same it's providing equal access when you think about it from that perspective I know for me as a mom or a parent I would have no problem with my child going across the street I live right across from Heaver there but I think when you're talking about values I can see for me as a parent where I'm putting my number one value is safety and that's what it comes down to for me why I want to see busing at Main Street Middle School because I truly do not feel like my child is a safe way to get to school unless I drop him off and I would like to see the conversation be more centered around those values around safety and not so much about I think we have opportunities for public comment that's such a great process people are here people wrote letters people have sent submitted emails people have spoken to every one of us who's on the transportation committee but I think we're going to have that opportunity to have that discussion if that's something that we move forward with but when you think about values I think about safety and that to me is the center of all of the comments that I've heard and that's the one thing I think we can all agree that we don't want to see a child get hit crossing the street and I saw a bus in Montpelier the other day where they had the stop sign and the kids were running out in front of the bus without the stop sign up because traffic was just so hectic so we already have problems with safety as it is now and I just think it's important to bring that value I think that's where parents really are concerned is looking at these icy days and sitting there thinking how is my child going to get there you wouldn't want to walk a mile this morning your neighbor picked you up I don't want my son getting in a car with a stranger but any decent human being would do that we tell our kids over and over again don't talk to strangers make sure you're aware of who you're with unfortunately we live in that world so that's I think when you talk about values don't think about the values that affect all of our students I just want to piggyback on that I have lost control all the students because of the congestion around those schools including around spare students coming in and out of their buses too there was just so much congestion around all those schools there was a lot of safety issues for all students that are coming and going into their schools I must know why there's not more talk about the high school too because I see that being an issue too I don't think that high school kids can get safely to school most of the time living 2 miles out of town and I think that affects work too so I would love to see more conversation at the upper ends I'm kind of surprised that hasn't been part of this too so I'm going to thank you thank you normally we don't do that but the comments you all raised are very good but thank you since the topic is transportation and not just busing I just wanted to raise something and not to ask for an answer now but sometimes at some point the budget is going about the crossing guard issue crossing guards for a while I just wanted to like not putting in any one spot because I didn't have time but it is another transportation and safety issue we need to turn the center of it on to the crossing it's hard to get and retain people we've got a few jams who some crossing guards come and go for instance for a while we didn't have one at school street that's how we do the Houston one there hasn't been for a long time I was not trying to start this yet there could be a couple more got it in red any other thoughts or comments we haven't talked really about the activities bus that goes to Roxbury after some of the actual activities at the middle school but I do think that's also an important service to continue and I've talked to folks about usage and all that and challenges around that but I think that's one piece where equity is where it's something that mobiliars not going to have but that Roxbury that it can be really important for Roxbury or that equal access to and I think that's where equity doesn't mean equal that's by its nature even if we do funnel points and mobiliar those points are probably going to be on average shorter than funnel points in Roxbury but there's also things like nobody in mobiliar even the people out on this road are not going to have an activity bus so are you thinking about what you need from SGA by budget deadline we'll have a plan excellent well thanks everyone for the great input this has been very helpful and thanks Libby for working that yes we're going to move on to board governance so I just kind of doing a mid-year progress update I have two items for this one is kind of how committee structure and how we run committees and then as part of that some discussion about negotiations committee and the makeup of that and then the third is just or the second is chain of communications I want to just start chain of communications and kind of how to communicate with administration members kind of like what hat you're wearing the issue and I think this has kind of been something we did in the past is there's a pretty loose relationship between communications of the board and communications with administration members that it didn't always funnel through either the superintendent or the board chair so there was a lot of kind of communication between board members and principals or board members and curriculum directors or board members and special ed directors the problems of that is it kind of I think has created some confusion on the part of the administrators about how that board member is speaking whether they're speaking on behalf of the board whether they're speaking individually sometimes it's been requests for information that I've kind of been taking as directives so I'd like to tighten that up a little and have requests if you're, if you want information from say Grant or Mike or Mike McCraith or you know Mary or whomever kind of as a board member seeking information to send it to Libby and me and then we can forward it on and just make sure it all gets funneled if you're speaking as a parent of course you can go to directly whoever you want to go to I think given that the line between a board member and a community member is pretty hard to distinguish once you're a board member I think the only way you should go directly to to an administration member other than Libby is as a parent and really keep that parent hat on and make sure that your discussion as a parent doesn't slip into a discussion as a board member which I think can happen if you have like a specific request about something that's going on in the classroom and then you get a response back and then that kind of edges in too well I kind of think this should happen in the school kind of be careful of that and where those lines are so I just wanted to kind of set those lines I think it'll be easier on the administration I think it'll it'll clear up any lies about whether you're speaking as an individual or as a board member and kind of Libby and I can clear that up when we pass the request along and I think it'll just be neater and I think it's kind of the form that most boards follow and we just have it for several years so any questions about that? Yes I'd like to clarify because I thought if I had a question I'd send it to you You can send it to not to Libby unless it no one less and that I send it to you you make a decision about whether Libby needs to be brought in or whether you have the answer to my question I think it's okay to CC both of us I mean I'm okay just having to go to B just having the policy set but it goes to the superintendent copy to the chair I think that's what the policy to do you wouldn't have a conversation with somebody which are I think that's right I think the main thing is to make sure that Libby and I are the following What if you're dealing with and I realize this is like the exception but for example some of the paperwork for becoming a board member Joanne reached out to me directly because she just reached out to me directly and so then I need to clarify some things with her I think that's fine I mean if it's truly like logistical administrative but not only that she called you and she also reached out to you I think if you can answer a question and if it's really road administrative can you draw this form off or whatever I think the line is air on the side of going through us and I think the danger of kind of thinking something is just a quick administrative question it might be looked as a directive I'd like to know this number but this number might be really complicated or is that a directive like I have to get that number to him or her right now and so when we're working on the finance committee with Grant for example and I think we're copying Libby on pretty much all those communications I can't think of any that we didn't do you want to be copied on those as well Jim because you might get I'm just thinking about that like with some of the subcommittee work where there could be like this past week for example with the negotiations committee and with the finance committee there were a lot of emails back bouncing back and forth and Libby was copied on I think all of them but I don't know that you were I wasn't and do you really want that to be the case or no I'm just trying to I think those questions would come to Jim and I and then we bring him to Grant with what Jim's saying yeah go ahead and copy me I can always do a quick look and ignore contact Libby instead of since we've got a lot of traffic around this too I think that these are all good things I guess I have a question about to what extent the honest falls on the professional administrators to be able to navigate this also you know our roles as community members parents or members they're very fluid in the sense that we're always talking to other our neighbors who maybe are also teachers who are also or somebody who might be a former you know whatever and it just you know I think I can think my own interactions have been pretty I usually go and say I'm writing this email as a parent today you know I'm always very clear about that but but I think that it would be great if we administrators were fluent in how to in what those roles are and what the how the board members do not speak for the board when they're approaching somebody individually they don't actually even have a right to ask for you to do any research or do anything frankly that has to go through their loss basically you know I just I just want to make sure it's clear that like I would really love it if you know when I sit down with Pam to go over my daughter's stuff and we start talking about some other issue that she can say you know I want to make it clear right now that Max you know or that I'm here talking to you as a parent I mean you know it's harder for a teacher right they're not an administrator I guess I think that was not important I think that was not important too and we need to be careful about it and we need to respect that this authority and her role and the superintendent I don't think it's disrespectful well I think it is because not intentionally or personally but I just think in terms of how you look at the roles between the board in fact channels develop with other members of the administrative team that's circumventing the person who runs the district and that's not supposed to work that way so I do I think we really have to own that responsibility as board members to make sure we understand that we hide and... and I think we have to own the power structure too I was going to say you are their boss and whether you want to everybody's in the district I'm not Pam's boss you're Pam's boss's boss good but what I'm saying is when you go in even if it's not your intention you have some... do you have authority? authority because you're on the board so you might not mean it that way but it's hard for somebody not to take it or to tell you stop talking about that I get it but I have a lot of faith in the professionalism of our especially our administrators and I think they can easily be trained in that too I'm not saying we should be abusing it or any of that nonsense but I'm not even Libby's boss right like I'm pretty clear on my roles here um you know I'm only her boss as part of a group right so I wouldn't have no individual right to even ask her for anything so it's you know it's not like I'm trying to abuse something what I'm doing is I'm saying these things require that the professionals the people who are full time paid they should understand these roles also is what I'm saying well I think they should understand it but I think we should we think the onus should be on us to be very mindful of how our interactions with administrators are taking and the fact that we have a power leverage over them yeah so we have a little bit of time right no I think we're ahead of time actually I think it's a really important topic and it would actually be available to me it is hard just talk more specifically about where that line should be drawn it's very easy if it's you know your kid having a problem in your class there in the line is easy and you can understand it as a parent you're sure seeing what's going on in the school and it's sort of about your kid but it's also like you know I think we need like another coach for this team or I think you know we don't have enough resources you know what I mean like you sort of see things I think you know we should be more express really about where that line is because I do think because we're board members we have a different responsibility if you're going to a principal issues that are going on in the school even though they do affect your own child but they're really more programatic issues and is that do you think that line you cross that line somewhere before you get to saying you know why does the library staff for more hours I'm just going to take it up to try not to personalize it but you know what do you think it is I'm not sure where it is I mean I think to be safe if it goes beyond issues very specific to your own child you might not have crossed it but you're inching towards it and I think also like when I'm tempted to kind of notice or bring up those issues I realize I have this role that I have kind of a unique ability to notice those and then bring them to this forum and not necessarily raise them in other forums where it could you know it could be taken as kind of a pressure on an administrator so does that work though so if we look at Bridget's example the super library staffing so if we come to the board and we start talking about library staffing all of a sudden aren't we getting outside the bounds of policy governors or governance by policy whatever we're following it and kind of making more directives for Libya to implement rather than us kind of trusting wouldn't that be a forward conversation or is this something that the board is very interested in learning or you Ryan are interested in learning and you care about the libraries and yeah well that's another interesting line too like you obviously you want to come in on behalf of the district but if you really seem like a district wide problem and you're and you kind of have a conversation that starts with your child and then it starts to get bigger issues that need to be addressed at a different level and then obviously as you know community members of people in our schools it's kind of how we often have to learn about what the needs are you know just kind of be mindful of when you're I'm not sure there's a clear line and it's you know it's a hard role to play but I think you kind of be mindful and be conservative if you observe something like the library staff couldn't they send that to you and say okay I'm concerned I see this problem or what I think is a problem I need some data on it or I need to hear what Libby thinks about it to say if I were just a parent and not a board member I would say something to the principal and I'm not going to do it because I'm a board member so I'm telling you yeah so maybe I'll share for the group some feedback I have a professional connection in a sense to the school being the library director at the Roxbury library we've obviously tried to do activities and programs and coordinate things in conjunction with the school I do my best to have the assistant director be the face for a lot of that but small facility that's not always the case the fact that you have this assistant director is impressive it's good in terms of management the last few years but no but I've always tried it's always the library email account it's always like it's just about something we're trying to do together I've never had an instance where somebody has expressed to me that they felt uncomfortable and this was kind of gray but it's always in the back of my mind a lot of hats on right now and I want to make sure that it's clear that yes I'm making a programmatic suggestion but wouldn't it be great if you could just do it together? but that's it, it's a small town so things are very fluid and I think transparency has been my fall back so when you get into those weird situations for instance include Libby in the loop or whatever I'm just talking as a parent here but recently I had an issue with a specialist and I wanted to solve it with the teacher because it was from my child so I was dealing with this one thing and little did I know the teacher was blind copying the principal because they were concerned like what was going on here and they said would you like me to include the principal so I'm like no I don't think we need the principal and so there's this power dynamic that if you are aware of that I wasn't even thinking about in terms of I was like no I just want to solve my problem for my kid right now so then I could get a call from the principal saying hey would you like to talk and I'm like okay and so I really love that and I thought she was great Pam was great because she was just making sure everything was okay but everything was staying totally legit the alternative could have been just copy the world on all that and then I would be like well I'm not trying to escalate this so it's this multiple kind of thing that gets confusing and it's definitely hard and I think there's another line too I don't want to pull back on advocacy for my kid because I feel I'm in a board role and you know you won't and I won't but but I also try to like what would I do as a parent to get full advocacy of my child and where might that come into like broader distant policy that suddenly is inappropriate so you know be very mindful but I think the clear areas where there's a lot of problems if you're talking to an administrative officer that doesn't have to do with your kid if it's you know I need information on this if you're talking to them as a board member then the filter clearly goes goes here and if you feel if you get into a situation where the conversation starts as a parent and you're starting to wonder you know that maybe think hard and if it's you know if it's kind of going beyond parent advocacy maybe reach out to one of us and say I've got a situation you know do you think that I'm starting to go into a board role anyway just since we're doing a check and I thought it would be good to raise that again any other comments or questions before we go into committees and kind of organizational committees so kind of two major things on committees there's a question about how to deal with the warning meetings by committees whether for the whole board Libby and Heather have been largely doing the warnings but with committee meetings it's been kind of ad hoc and I don't think the expectations are super clear there are technically committee meetings and technically the committees have the obligation to do it it's something that Libby could do if there was a desire to have it do I know Bridget for instance is a great job of she just directly goes to Heather I've done it when we're doing the transportation meetings so I think we should have a clear consensus on the board of whether the committee chair goes to Heather to warn meetings or whether it's something that that is a super attentive role I guess the committee chair committee chair does anyone Libby is there any reason you need to do it just go directly okay good well I mean it came up with the negotiations but it wasn't warned it turned out it didn't need to be but I think there was some a little negotiation session versus a committee meeting yeah but it didn't come up until the night before the meeting and fortunately we didn't need to have it done but I thought given that situation it would be good to so committee chairs will do it the second thing is for committees that meet fairly regularly would it be good to maybe have a set time I don't know if this works at all for your schedule for the finance committee it does kind of work because we've been doing them before the presentations of the quarterly meeting the negotiations committee I think is going to be really hard for a lot of them don't need to be warned second you know negotiations schedules yeah go through the union and they also kind of have an unpredictable pace and intensity to them the only one that really actually is a policy committee I don't bridge it if it would it just doesn't work regular schedule we have these priorities right now let's call it both conference I feel like it's necessary to have a scheduled monthly or biweekly meeting as needed okay that's perfect is there a rule in warning about how many for example if you scheduled four meetings could you warn the four meetings all at once or do they have to be warned certain amount of time before them they have to be warned 24 hours before it's good to put an agenda on so it would be hard for our to warn four so okay and how far in advance 24 hours except for some like emergency yes okay I think that's the only really committee that meets semi-regulatively that doesn't have a predictable schedule and then so any questions or comments on that well just to add to that so you're wanting to establish regular meetings in order to have them posted and accessible and regular meetings don't have to be warned in the same way partly just to have it were they don't have to be warned in the same way and then it could be something that say how there could kind of calendar so it wouldn't yeah really it doesn't have to be warned in the same way if I said I'm on a committee that's going to meet once we meet for some reason right wouldn't you don't you have to warn it just the same well just like our regular board meetings aren't warned in the same way because we set a schedule well that's what I was wondering about a list of if you had a committee and they had already set for me but you still post the agenda yeah I still post the agenda yeah I think there's like three types of meetings there's regular meetings special meetings and special meetings and then emergency meetings and the final thing is I think I have a little discussion about the negotiations committee Tina now that the committee is more stocked and not just Tina has decided that her previous desire never to ever be on negotiations committee is is a desire that she wants to rekindle that's excellent that's excellent so who did that leave it leaves Ryan and Andrew and I just so there's two and we always had two yeah just to be clear I have that saying just stop it just doesn't always get into it yeah I've heard you do a great job so I want to give mostly Ryan and Andrew whether they feel they're comfortable as a duo the other question is we are starting to get into issues getting some time with the board to go over what the issues are going to be and get some board consensus on how we deal with that that's critical it's really important I think probably yes do you think a half hour could do it if we do it quickly or should we schedule more time I've only gone through the grandals at this point there's going to be more general expectations we don't have anything specific except for the summat and recommendations would go ahead state we should make sure we have a good kick off in terms of in terms of our strategic direction or whatever we want it to be this year so at least 30 minutes the first time I agree I do longer than we always want them to first meeting maybe 30 minutes after that but I think at the very outset this is what you're saying Steve is to kind of have the general approach ironed out and maybe our general tenants ironed out of knowing what the realities are this year getting all that that takes a while it might be 45 is what I'm trying to say never to happen twice but okay whatever you guys think you can squeeze in I think is what you do 30 minutes 30 minutes I'm just thinking the fifth is the public budget presentation so I prefer not to push into that I don't know if 545 is firmly but I think it's probably great for living we can get people here then we can get a pizza is the idea to Jim and let me that the administration during that time is going to present its proposals as well I can so right now we have these proposals from the administration and we don't understand them so I think they need to be we need 45 okay so let's meet at 545 okay we'll get food yeah this has to be mindful that we can meet again because I don't want to push being equitable to Roxbury yes okay because there's a more real way cheaper than Roxbury oh bring them on so logistically so the idea of Andrew and I are the two other administration committee I get really sick and I can't make a schedule meeting is it okay for Andrew to be there by himself with just one person you know actually we did have 3 for a while I'm not sure that we all know I did have 3 I will into be I would be on yeah like the emergency goalie like sits in the stands that they pull out and everybody else is dead and injured sure when everybody else is one of the power balls in terms of Libby's involvement and the attorney's involvement etc is that something that we want to save for next time if you want the power balls to yes we'll do the whole play the ground work next time I think there's quite a bit perfect are you about to go to the last item I think there's all the items does anybody remember who last time said we should go talk to the lions oh yeah I figured it was I don't think there is a lions in town is there an elk we're good on rotary I can't find the others so I think they're like up at the Canadian club and I'm like I'm not sure the Canadian actually they might be I think there's a colonis and berry they're all in berry I'm like I just unless Michelle says otherwise Michelle usually watches these actually I think it was I that said I just picked another there's no lions nearby I mean they are they're in the Canadian club and I don't think they have any interest in January that's quite right anything else I've just got to move quickly before I return anything else on board governance anyone wants to pick any observations things we're doing well things we're not doing well answering a good general question policy committee conversation raised a question in the last what 14 months we've had a lot of conversations and discussions about we're not policy never formally said adopted anything besides conversations would it make sense for us to have to be a very short global policy essentially that says this is how we're trying to operate does that make sense would it be not necessary I don't really force this to define what governance by policy means do I look forward to that conversation which might sound better than it defines I'm agnostic about it I think I think we could have it my guess is it would take 45 minutes and it would end up on a sheet of paper and we'd worn it a few times and then it would sit in the binder somewhere I just kind of came up and here we are in progress update for board governance for a passable board other thoughts motion to adjourn motion to adjourn second all those in favor thanks all