 Hello and welcome to NewsClick. We are with you this evening to talk about the Indian Premier League, the perhaps biggest glitziest, most talked about, most widely covered cricket tournament that there is on the planet. We're talking about it of course in the context of the COVID-19 pandemic that is currently well running rampant. I don't want to use sort of flippant terminology in describing what is happening on the ground but I think those of you who are watching us wherever you are are very well aware of what's happening in India at the moment. We're talking about the IPL in the context of sport and a pandemic or in terms of sport in the times of a national crisis, a global crisis such as the one we are dealing with at the moment and what we sort of expect from the sport that we watch, that we follow, that we love, that we often spend our time, our money, all of that on and focus a lot of attention on people that we idolize and of course all the great things about human endeavor that we celebrate when it comes to the sporting field. Joining us for this conversation this evening are journalists Sharda Ugra and Leslie Xavier as well as Pabhi Pukkasta who is the new stick editor-in-chief. Thank you very much, hope you guys are all well as yet. I said that I'm thanking him. Yeah, good to hear that. Sharda, I want to come to you to begin this conversation because you are most closely associated with cricket as a journalist and a writer for several years. You are following everything that's going on with the sport, talking to several people. Why are we talking about the IPL in this time when there are clearly other things to talk about things of life and death and other urgencies? The IPL is just such a large entity in our sort of public space in our public attention at this point of the year. Every summer for the last 10, 14 season it is broken upon us and it has been seen with a great amount of pride that oh this has been a game changer for sport, for cricket, for India's representation in the world and they say very proudly that no movie releases during IPL. That's how big it is and because it's such a big business and because it's sort of become this sort of semi-entertainment package that is made for TV and for fans and into the stadium that it occupies our public attention unmasked across the scale. But at a time like this when it's happening all the contradictions are then just coming and it's like they're coming and like to me it's like they're spitting in your face. You're spitting in the country's face and this is going on. I know it sounds very extreme but because of all the stuff that's happening around us it just something in it just looks really really out of sync and like I keep saying I've said a lot it's almost like it's deaf it's not listening to what's happening in the country. So in general what I guess why we're talking about this is because there seems to be no acknowledgement of the realities that common Indian people are facing while this tournament is progressing or being conducted in what is called a biosecure bubble which means that those who are participating in this tournament are sort of protected. They are removed from common society from from you know contact with normal people. They have dedicated medical care. They have regular RT-PCR and other testing for COVID-19 and basically a sort of sub-environment has been created in which these players, officials, ground staff, broadcasters, commentators etc live and kind of work so that they are safe and they are able to do the jobs that they are sort of are tasked with doing. So Leslie if you can maybe just give us an outline of what this bio bubble means and and why exactly because sport has been happening around the world whether it's the Premier League or the Champions League or the NBA happened in the US all these things happened in bubbles. Why are we kind of questioning or criticizing the IPL's method of functioning or you know yeah reason to exist at this point? To start with it's the logistics that has been diverted to make this bubble happen. So to start with let's talk about the RT-PCR that you mentioned. So the players and the officials and the team officials, the the relatives of players who are in the bubble and the ground staff, the umpires, the television crew, everybody who was involved in this they all go through RT-PCR every second day and the results are real tags. It comes within seven to eight hours max more much earlier than that and then just let's just step out from the bubble and see what's happening in Delhi. We are people who are waiting for a test to be done. They have to wait for four days for the slot to arrive and then wait four more days. By the time either their cases their disease would have escalated to a point of no return or they would have started recovering and they need this test result for the ourselves have experienced that trying to get our people we know into the hospital that the result is important for them to get admission into the hospital. So that is the reality that's happening outside and here you are just going about RT-PCR as though it's nothing every every other way you're getting tested. So that playing out of this irony this disconnect is it's not the biggest border risk and you have personnel like for instance dedicated the central police force personnel giving security and ensuring that the bubble is intact. You have made arrangements for logistical arrangements for transfer of the entire bubble from one city a city like Bombay where the escalation has been there for the last eight to nine months it's been continuous where the city has been reeling to a city like Delhi which is burst on its seams and too much of pain and horror stories coming out from the streets and literally from the streets people are dying on the streets. So you're bringing the entire bandwagon here setting up airport logistics everything. So we are diverting personnel and that too government forces who can be of use or better use to help alleviate issues that are happening on the field with relation to the pandemic and you are using it to set up this this this the silly road show and where is this road so happening it's happening in Portla from tomorrow. Now it's called Arunjay Police Station and it's right across where is the LNJB hospital which is every now and then you you see messages from them saying that we are running out of oxygen patients are lined up outside to get get one bed and again there is a summation ground a couple of kilometers away where people are standing in queue so how will you play the cricket game in such a scenario no matter how much of a sanitized bubble you are creating you're just you're playing when outside people are dying so that's the situation we are looking at so that's that's the problem which is which never surfaced in any of the bubbles that we mentioned so football has been happening across Europe NBA happened US Open so these things happen and would these things have you remember NBA players had had stood up and said that they wouldn't play and so what are our cricketers doing I mean I'm not saying that they should stand up and say that they they can't play but they should probably voice their opinion saying that this is something that's not right and foreigners have started doing that by the foreign players who are involved in this game while Indians have been inside so the whole approach of the cricket fraternity Indian cricket fraternity plus the situation where which you're playing a game and outside something else is happening all this is that's the problem that's what we are voicing our angst against Praveer as someone who follows sport I think quite closely what is sort of there I mean what do we expect from the IPL because in our conversations with people who are following the sport and those who wanted to continue the most common reference seems to be there there's something being provided almost in like service terms that this is national scale or global scale distraction from the very very harsh realities that all of us are going through in our day to day lives what do you make of the distraction argument and how would you sort of let's say we would put you in that job of the BCCI boss how would you sort of maybe voice your reasoning behind holding this tournament behind continuing to play cricket or what are the sort of steps that you might take I don't really want to be even speaking as if I'm the BCCI boss I think that's not a spot you should put me on ever let's let's recognize what cricket for us means we started as people who played when we're young of course everybody plays some gully crickets to cricket proper whatever you call it as used to call it the deuce ball we loved it like any other game we because we played in it that's how the bond with the sports is what we see today is not the sports that we or the game that we started with it's really a vast entertainment industry we are talking about and therefore a person who plays one season of IPN makes perhaps enough money to last him perhaps you know at least for 10 seasons for him and his family so this are the economics off for the players also that is there and also as all entertainment cricket increasingly has become from the sport it used to be to essentially something which is more of an entertainment 50 overs and 20 overs we even see talk about 10 overs so it's clearly the entertainment and the immediate you know what shall we say instant gratification has become the key to this so-called IPL as a as what people are watching I accept the fact that people want entertainment even in hard times even in times of cholera you want entertainment people are dying what you do but you know there is a heartlessness about it that people are lining up in front of hospitals they're lying there they're dying and inside the bio-bubble is one issue inside the larger entertainment bubble which you watch IPL there's not even a sensitivity to what is happening that's so disheartening you know I do not at the moment I'm not going to disagree with what other panel members have already said and I think they have said it very powerfully but what hurts me the most is all those who are participating from commentators to the players and of course to the big bosses there is not even a semblance of making at least even a symbolic gesture to say this is happening this is tragic yes we are doing this but our heart is the people who are suffering and yes we are providing entertainment to the people what is it that we can do in the hard times but we would like to make symbolic gestures raise some money give you know a part of our cash that we are going to get let the sponsors give some money so make some symbolic gestures I know that is not going to solve the problem okay but at least do that but let the BCCI bosses who make a huge killing from the television money that they get at least say 20% of our take we will give for COVID-19 relief of some kind or the other so can we even symbolically see this gestures just to make it at least more palatable that in times which are so hard so heartbreaking for the people at least there is a sense that we are living in the same world otherwise it seems from the players to commentators of course we don't see the people who are maintaining the bubble they are not in the bubble they're just made they're probably maintaining the bubble the much higher cost to themselves they don't get the money that the players the commentators get but all of that taken into account you know what is really the callousness of it is day after day day after day we go on seeing it and it seems that it's in a different planet all together it's not here and it's happening right in the cities which are hardest hit Mumbai Delhi you know these are the cities which are really very hard hit it was Mumbai earlier and now it's Delhi and Delhi is as I mean I don't want to talk about what condition Delhi is in we are literally living breath to breath and if anybody falls ill today and becomes serious we just don't know in spite of all the pools and the connections people have even then they might nobody's going to empty a bed for them so and there are no beds and even if they are beds even there is you know bed even in a intensive care unit oxygen is in short supply what do you say so under such conditions when the city is gasping but the patients are dying the countries and shambles at the moment at least a symbolic gesture would have softened the blow of trying to maintain the game and because as you say okay people need entertainment so therefore I'm saying even if we accept that argument as you said amongst a certain section they still want to have the escapist fare that IPL provides at least that should have been and I see that even that minimal I have to call this decency on public life because if you're in BCCI you're in public life you're not just talking about cricket and private venture though you run it like a private venture but that that apart but you are still in public life and that I think for all sportsmen sports women it's clear they are a sports person they are in public life and they owe it to their public to make this even symbolic gestures which we just don't see and it's tragic that foreign players are starting to talk about it because they have already seen what other sports have done at least and they have all talked about it participated in and here we just we are living in a make-believe world that it doesn't touch them and that I think is a part of what we have that Indian elite always is believed it's separate from the rest and I think when you have a bubble it sort of accentuates that feeling that you don't are really not a part of this country you're separate you're somewhat somewhere in a stratified superior place I'm sorry I sound like I'm ranting but it is heartbreaking to register what Sharda and Leslie have said and there is no way you can say anything else yeah no absolutely and and I think the reason we're having this conversation is also because that kind of the the sort of superficial chatter about how these bubbles are important and why and all of that has to be maybe put into sharper perspective and and so yeah there are I think valuable points of view from someone who is both a fan of the sport as well as a commentator on how things are going whether it's from from the healthcare perspective or in terms of the wider structure that that we have in this country today Sharda because you know your piece was also a very sort of personal emotive piece and you have been this is a fraternity that you are very much a part of and have been for a long time and perhaps that's why it is so close to home you know in that sense what would you ask for what what are you asking for what are you asking the powers that are controlling the BCCI to do actually I mean so when the piece was written it's almost like you got all your anger out onto it you know you just because I have been sitting on this piece for days and saying just it has to get published this is just too much and I don't know whether whether Leslie or Praveer or whether you have noticed that I watch a segment in it I watch the IPL through Daghout select Daghout which they have players sitting and talking about it and it's got it's supposed to be slightly more elevated and complex sort of level of commentary and it's not just shouting they have a segment in it that used to be called death by numbers and I was just watching it and saying now come on you know what is this have you no idea what has happened and I think the message has gone out to people in that in that bubble to say listen just take it down just take down the title turn it into something else you know so these are the basic steps if you have to even look at then you're saying is no one listening is no one hearing it what is it what would you want them to do like Praveer is saying any gesture or showing sympathy with it but I think what has happened now is that we have gone I mean I don't think they they're not they couldn't win me over in any way at all as a cricket fan and as a cricket journalist and I consider myself a cricket person you know there are millions and millions of cricket persons and we have cricket persons as a cricket persons they've lost me already forget it because I'm thinking 10 years from now someone is going to say they actually play the cricket tournament when there were funeral pyres burning three and a half kilometers away from the Feroza Kotla and the hospitals didn't have oxygen they actually played cricket how does it reflect on your sport you know what is that sport what does it look like has everyone lost their their sense in the way it is going we understand everything else about again I'm going to be on some ranting board so I shall just dial down a little bit and say what you want them to say is okay forget about my what I think or whatever is just connect with the outside audience that there is all these eight franchises that are there the cities in which they are taking they respond to them at in an active way don't give everything to PMKs it's a black hole we'll never know where it go give it where you can see it give it directly where it's happened at least go and talk to people who have come out through covid you know I mean one of India's international players on the international women's team she has lost her mother how was she going to be feeling watching this nonsense going on with shouting and screaming and everything everybody and said oh we are entertained she has lost her mom you know so there is so literally just reach out to people in a way that doesn't have to be you're not doing them a favor it's not a handout you are just bowing and you are just sharing their sorrow with them in some way just do it in a way that it shows the franchises should do it would not football clubs in England have done something of this sort you know how didn't I know Manchester United did a lot I remember during the covid thing the football clubs were huge yeah I think the English Premier League the German League some of the first to begin resume competition after the first wave hit yes in England at least there was an understanding that this testing to ensure that there's some kind of bio bubble is maintained a private company was contacted to test all of the players officials etc etc involved and the understanding was that you will conduct X number of tests paid tests which the Premier League is paying for right for our players and our staff but you will only be given this contract on the understanding that an equal number of tests you will do for free for the national health service there you are there you absolutely are very simple that you know Siddharth the other part that is important here I think to talk about is that you talk them as franchises of the city but they're not franchises exactly they're really franchises of the owners who have branded it from the city so that they get the a quote unquote captive fan base supposedly of the city these are not clubs which have come up organically when you talk about football yeah those are clubs which have come up organically and the club actually has a deep bond with the fans and that's what we saw but the super league was scuppered scuppered so you know that is also the other problem with the IPL these are not these have all been parachuted into the cricket sporting arena and they have been done from the top so Praveen the the whole premise of IPL was it it's based on the American sport model of these franchises created by these owners coming in and doing it and Lalit Modi used to say this confidently I would be very interested in finding out what he thinks the way the IPL has handled the situation because whatever he was he was very aware of optics he was very aware of image so I don't know what he sees response to this which says me oh I better try and reach him and get sorry but his response to this I'm wondering what it would have been you know I'm thinking about it now but in terms of this at least have the franchises respond to the cities in every way all these cities have very very good first-class teams so do something for the players in that community as a okay you don't want to do it's a business so literally show that you are not just a money generating machine or an entertainment generating device you know on our remote on our remote in that sense so when you're watching this and you're saying what is this going to look like 10 years from now and you could just think that I mean the Leslie wrote those lines about the crematorium and the floodlights coming on and I'll never be able to forget it it is just stuck in my head now yeah yeah I mean there I mean yeah it's it's a I'm glad that he managed to get those words out it's it's a difficult one to sort of digest for for for many of us I had a question somewhere there but like in in I think your emotion I have also gotten a bit lost so come back no so what I was going to say was last evening I did a small uh not not a well an instagram poll now any pollsters that may or may not be watching this is not not a scientifically conducted poll so please don't jump down our thoughts for that a very sort of basic just a yes or no kind of poll I think the sample size in the end was a few hundred and a lot of the responses that I got from those who were saying yes the IPL must continue and again I also want to point out that at no point of any of us I think saying that this tournament should be cancelled or called off or scrapped or any of that but maybe conducted with a bit more sensitivity maybe take a pause if if that is what the situation on the ground demands but so those who are in favor of it continuing a lot of them argued that there are people who have been jobless for a long time and because of the IPL they are finding work there are some who run sort of companies based on this who employ several people so their jobs at stake uh how would you respond to the jobs argument in this context uh and again is it something that can't be sort of paused for a while because uh as we say of course while things are continuing as normal everything is happening shops are open restaurants are open people are going to bars and and uh cinema halls and all that then that's a different context today you are more and more seeing a lockdown everywhere basic economic activity has been curtailed to whatever extent you know it's deemed not absolutely essential so in that context how does the job argument fitting who's the question who wants to take it please you start it uh no the jobs the jobs argument is a fair argument I'm saying uh you know it's fine the jobs can you need to have jobs but let us also look at the fact that uh the IPL should have been paying attention to when the spike was kind of uh when the when the surge was sort of beginning it was you know why is it pretending like it's the government and it has not paid attention to anything which sounds ridiculous but you know what I mean so why uh when they see something like this has happened they actually have to stand by venues it's not that it's uh Indore this Indore and Hyderabad it's not that they're any better in that sense but if you have to move it maybe you should have thought about moving it earlier maybe you should have regained it that you can move it into other places I don't know I'm not into the logistics of it I don't understand how it works but to find yourself in this position is that after sometime you said how many you know how all those people who are working also what would they feel when they know they are going into this kind of environment you have to just get in your senses I assume and and kind of get into it so I am not seeing you cancel the IPL I'm not saying I'm just find a way to make it work so that you don't have uh like this thing with sensitivity and with some kind of response and also accepting that you have taken away all these resources I actually thought there was this one ambulance in every ground and therefore it's all fine then I realized about the tests that happened then I realized that these tests have to happen every two days and then you keep building and these are a thousand people that are being there thousand 1200 people that are being tested every day and you're thinking you know the thousand 1200 people must be outside could have done a test you know so what is more important at this point in time is it tests for people on the outside or tests for people in the bubble that's a very easy answer you know so my my response is only that you need to be a little bit more nimble when it was thinking about how you're going to stage this event maybe you should have staged it in the UAE like you had done last time in that sense just move it away from here because it's you're not getting the crowds in any way thankfully um the everyone says that when they had pulled in about I think 60,000 people into the Ahmedabad stadium for a t20 match they were all sitting in the same place and that also became like a little super spreader kind of event that happened maybe think about moving it to the UAE you could have moved it quickly enough hold it outside you know it's not that it's not that it's not possible it's not that it can't be done this is the BCCI this is where they have they have the direct line to the government the government and the BCCI talk across the dinner table I'm assuming so it's not a sharper answer you know this was the argument given against a lockdown as well how many people who lose jobs said yes they did migrants workers we call them migrants they're really people who have come to the city to work so they're not migrant in the sense that they go back and forth every six months so we took a huge economic hit and the poor sections poorer sections have taken a much bigger rate during the pandemic than you and I have taken let's be very clear that this has had this is setback poverty inequality back gender equality back 10 years so we've all taken that hit then to talk about a few thousand employment seems you know really an excuse I can't say anything else and you know this was the argument Trump gave when he said what can we do we can't lock down because this is really going to affect the American economy so that is not the way to treat a pandemic we are talking of pandemic and this is qualitatively a different issue than talking about you know job losses against losses of lives so I don't think that argument should be even thought of as an answer you know is it either or people have to lose jobs and so on hey take some money off the BCCI's fact money and check that they get from all of this and just a fraction of that will you know completely help with the job losses so let's not even talk about the yearly money that BCCI makes out of IPL and then you know and that's what is all supposedly for greater good of cricket let's let's talk about those things I think this is just an excuse for you want to watch IPL I understand that you want some escape in the evening from all the dreadful news we are hearing escapism IPL I understand that psyche but let's not justify or rationalize in this particular way. Prabir has just hit us all out of the park with that one so there's no the employment argument has just been taken a thrown back in our faces what he's saying is absolutely right about the amount of money that the BCCI have they could actually have pay they can actually pay every single one of the 1100-1200 people that are there they can actually pay them their fees and say okay pack your bags and go home we don't need you anymore they have that much money they are that rich. Yeah as you know so sorry let's see go on. No also to add to what Prabir another aspect is that BCCI doesn't have a model standing to talk about job security or job losses because if that was the case then why hold the IPL in the UAE where where all your ground where none of your groundsmen or the basic lower level employees who maintain this bubble or maintain ensure that a match happens on a ground or a tournament happens they were all not involved they were all jobless at that point and you conducted that tournament in the UAE aptly you made your money you made your broadcast money paid the money to the Arabs for staging using their stadiums and their facilities and came back so they don't have a standing now to say that we are doing it for the employment sake because this was never about IPL 2020 and now IPL 2021 or any of the IPL has never been about about people and jobs and job security and the cricket ecosystem and getting back to what Sharda said about franchisees and their responsibility to cricketers at the local level again IPL doesn't have a grassroots program IPL eats into the BCCI grassroots grassroots problem the franchisees that's why the auction happens it's it's it's glorified slave trade and in a way they don't care about what happens happens at the ground level in the city that they're based so getting back to the employment thing of it so that's that's so when when people say that it's for the sporting economy as such sports economy as such again it's it's cricket we are talking about it's not it's not the general sporting idea that India represents which is which is which comprises of many many rural sport many grassroots sports and they all continue to struggle and they will all continue to thrive also because they are they're all feeding to into the local psyche local network and the local culture cricket IPL with what they're doing now will will be disconnected from that culture and over time and I'm hoping also sincerely because over time I just hope that IPL become irrelevant I had written this as well so yeah but well I mean we will have to we'll see how that goes I'm since I brought up Lalit Modi while I had several long conversations with Lalit Modi while he was still speaking with me and and one of the things that he would no doubt try again I will definitely but one of the things that he I think would bring up in this scenario is that because of the amount of wealth generated by the IPL the BCCI has been able to dish out funds to its affiliates all the state organizations and then so on to the district level etc etc to be able to sort of initiate some things like pensions and you know proper salaries your ground staff some now get pensions people like that day to day employees work working class people who are employed by cricket he would no doubt bring that up and and you know those little bit of sort of trickle down economics ideas that are always touted as as the successes of these mega events probir I know you have to go if you can give us maybe parting comments on what you make of of this the the whole idea of this of course lezzy touched on it in terms of how things can be from the grass roots up rather than a this trickle down top down approach that we're talking about because like like someone was saying for example again this is very conversational but Hindustan meh gharib log hain bhuke log hain but hum sab tabh bhi restaurant meh jagi khaana khaate hain. So ab IPL ke aap uspe bandhu kyun taane huin. Yeah this is this is the line of thinking and if you can just leave me with a quick your thoughts on on how you would sort of rebut this. I think we need a separate discussion. I don't think we should tag it on to this discussion but since you've raised it I'm not going to deduct the question. I think when you look at sports as entertainment the question is we cannot get away from the fact that sports has become entertainment it is intrinsically connected to television and the televisions mainstay today is really sports. It's not news it's not cinema it's not entertainment or other kinds really sports which drives television. Everything else is going to go to the over what's called the OTT platforms. So given that that that is there we also have to see structurally what happens with sports itself and then the issue really is that if super clubs super events become the dominant money makers then you are going to get really centralization on a scale which means the hinterland of sports will then slowly dry out and that is the basic problem that is there when you have to start seeing big monopolies and what you are seeing in terms of sports clubs and IPL franchises what you are seeing is the growth of monopoly in sports that sports is now represented by eight franchising clubs that's cricket. If the Super League happens in football by 16 clubs or 20 now that then becomes super league that becomes a sports so I think that structurally for sports is a completely different path they have I know that there is this American model versus the traditional model as I would call it but the fans to clubs the relationship is there. We come from the East Bengal Mohanlaka football culture in Calcutta so we really part of that. Now I don't think I like this this kind of model that is being preached which is a super capitalist model and which is really based on monopoly and big money should go to few people as the basis of it that everybody wants to get into the gladiator mode and then try and make break it into that that becomes the driving force of course there is quote unquote trickle down effect but the trickle up effect is far more dominant than trickle down effect and I believe that's the complete disaster for larger the sports model itself and I I'm not talking about IPL here I'm really talking about what it means to all sports and what it means therefore to the larger relationship between sports fans and the clubs of the players. I'm sorry this is a digression from... I don't think so at all. It's a very good point that you are leaving us on because we can continue this conversation for a little while with Sharda and Leslie about actually some of these things that you've mentioned including what is this kind of false sense that there's a market for the services that these athletes are providing and in fact what is actually happening to them and why rich and powerful athletes who have in some cases sort of social media followings of 20-30 million people are still finding themselves in a position where they are unable to commiserate, empathize or even voice solidarity with the people that are on whom their entire adulation and their position is based so so so I don't think it was a digression at all to be go on. I'm going to leave my apologies to the fellow panelists for leaving like this but I really have to go for something else. Okay thank you Praveen for listening to me and letting me go. Thank you. Thank you Praveer. We'll carry on for a minute. So just based on what Praveer where Praveer left us Sharda, Leslie, I mean I don't want to single out any players or whatever but some of these big names let's say the grade A cricketers you know who have just recently been the new central contracts were announced I think a couple of weeks ago. There are three of them in the A plus category and then several others in various categories all of whom are earning multiple crore rupees just through this one central contract annually and yet we find this sort of absolute silence from all of them because of what? It's the central contracts there are losses possibly and also that you don't go against what the organization you want. Fair enough but do you think a Rohit Sharma or a Virat Kohli or a Jaspeet Bumrah can be so easily replaced? Do you think they lack complete like power in this equation? They have nothing to negotiate or balance? In that regard everybody is replaceable I guess. At least it's on the dock for two years that's it. It's done right and yeah no we will talk about it at some point but BCCI would ultimately prevail but what Praveer said about sport as an entertainment is something that the players also the superstars should be worried about. So if I am a Virat Kohli and I'm playing the IPL or I'm leading the Indian cricket team and as much as I mean even as a journalist I would feel the same that if my choices beat sports because I've chosen it for so many different reasons. I grew up in sport, I love sport, I understand the value of sport in a larger sense and if that is trivialized as an entertainment as a digression when we believe ourselves that it is life and it is an important aspect that we do then they should be worried themselves. They should be ashamed of what they're doing anyway because you're playing as a digression. How would you feel? What would your motivation be then? Because we have spoken to a lot of athletes over the course of our careers and we have spoken about their motivation for playing for the country, for winning the World Cup, for fighting to pain and winning. And what is your motivation while playing this IPL? So that is a point of knowing all too well that the justification is entertainment as a digression. So that is one aspect. So starting with voicing their opinion, they should also fight this sort of branding that is again market driven because sport as an entertainment is something that is pretty recent because when we fell in love with sport as kids, we never knew sport as entertainment. We always, sport was participatory, sport was something that we indulged in, sport was something that we were a part of. As spectators, as players at our own small level, we could be playing football in the local ground or we just playing whatever sport that we are playing. It has always been that and also we look at sport in a way where we don't look at sports persons or our heroes as someone who is out there on the screen or out there in the ground and who is in a bubble in that, I'm not talking about the eco-bio-bubble aspect, but in a bubble set by the sporting establishment aspect, you always identify with them as one of you. That's what made us all sports fans and so on a larger sense, the problem comes from this idea that has been created of sport which is purely business driven and that's a reality. You know, so fair enough, I take your point Sharda, there are smaller leagues happening in the country, again private leagues in let's say football for example, also where the ownership of these franchises, the Indian Super League for example is very similar in that it doesn't come from these traditional clubs, except now that East Bengal and Mohan Bagan have joined that bandwagon, that's a separate story, but for the rest they are all franchises. They also started from scratch six or seven years ago and are now trying to build a community. Several of these clubs across cities have come out and again it's perhaps purely symbolic, it doesn't change anything, it doesn't help anything maybe really, it might though. To say that you know these are the platforms we have, you are our community, you're the people we engage with and we want to open up our platforms for you to kind of use to whether it's to amplify something that is required or whatever conversation that needs to be had beyond just the playing field. So if this is possible in an environment where largely ownership is the same, same people are controlling how things are done, where the money is much less and therefore the supposed impact of doing or not doing is that much less if that's how things are being measured. How are they able to take these steps and be empathetic at this time while cricket is sadly not? I think the very important sort of difference in football and in cricket particularly is the fact that because cricket is such a big and a rich thing there is more power attached to being associated with it. And what you're seeing now particularly is the fact that Jay Shah is the secretary of the VCCI whose father is the home minister of the VCCI, a lot of what is formal government policy is being reflected in the IPL's response to what is happening, which is how, which is why I was wondering what would have been there had Lalit Modi been in charge, what would the response have been. So this is now seen as it's taken over, the IPL has also become, without realizing it or understood saying that okay this is the way it is, become the official political, reflects the official political policy of the government in power at that time, which you have to wonder, suppose it had been a war or something like that, it's a completely different equation for it to reflect political policy, contemporary political policy, if there's a war on it's completely different. But because there is just so much of death and there's so much of trauma that is happening around it, that's why our response to it is also that much. And you would have wanted, at least for the players to step in in their own way and say, but either it is fear or it is, so you've got players like Vaseem Jaffer and Harbid and Singh and who's playing in the IPL, Vaseem Jaffer is he's a coach in, he's with the support staff, R Srin has done a little bit. So you have to have a certain, and in fact, you have to have a certain confidence to be able to do that or to say that Abdekha Jaigar type of response and then you're wondering is that why is it not happening elsewhere? I mean, we are expecting the players to respond in a way, but I mean, I'm not trying and trying to be extra understanding of what the players are doing. I'm saying what kind of, who is talking to them? Who is giving them advice? Is the advice coming to them from the franchise owners? Is the advice coming to them from their managers to keep quiet and not see anything? It's almost like the top players in the country don't understand the depth and range of their influence. Suppose, say for example, Rohit Sharma puts out some tweet just saying that's it. My DM is open. Let's do this. Tell the social media team. Let's go crazy with whatever happens. Let's try and help as many people as we can connect them to something or the other. What is the worst that would happen to him? You never play for India again. But then he becomes a free agent. He can go and play T20 cricket everywhere he wants. And he then becomes a figure of defiance. He becomes a figure of some kind of thing. Or like the voice of representing what maybe millions of people are thinking and feeling. Yes, yes, which is a huge thing. And it's almost that kind of thing will last longer than what your career was, which is what I don't think that the players understand. That kind of thing. Why are people looking at Masim Jaffer with such interest in that sense? Or even Harbhajan is doing whatever the little work that he's doing. And why are they calling out the big names? Why are they calling out Tendulkar? Why are they calling out Anil Kublai? Whatever. I'm not saying because they want them to be their heroes. They want them to do that. So it's almost like that the consequences, they are so fearful of the consequences. They don't understand that it could actually work in their favor. That it could actually turn them into other kind of, I mean look at Abhinav Bindra at what he was able to do. Just in that one piece that he put out, he's always spoken against authority and official demand. Okay, he's not as popular as the most popular cricket player. But you know that he's not afraid of speaking his mind. You know that someone like him will not shout out to anyone trying to dictate that please you paste this into your Twitter and you'll not take that shit at all. So that will last longer or be as significant and as important as your career was. And it's possible for you to do that. Someone like Tendulkar for example with the smallest thing. It doesn't have to be anything huge. It has to just be the smallest thing that you say to say, okay, I'm away from this. I am something else. And he himself was ill. He himself came through the illness himself. He understands what it's about and everything. So it's that it's almost like they don't understand. And I get the feeling, I mean I'm just saying this maybe it's maybe it's just being a bit too idealistic is that once you do it, then you set yourself free and once you set yourself free anything and people will follow, people will respect you much more than they do, than they did or loved you at the time. It's just one thing that they need to do. I mean it seems like the way you're sort of breaking it down. It seems like a fairly win-win situation. And also I think maybe when you're saying who is talking to these players and stuff like that, the understanding that if you do speak out, at least in favor of the people or your you know your compatriots, your fellow human beings, when wrong is done to you, then those seen people will also back you up. And I'm really unsure how these guys who have built their platform based on the adulation and the wealth from this adulation has a direct consequence. There's no indirect relationship between your Twitter followers and your Instagram followers and the amount of money you make. It's fairly straightforward. So why these guys still don't feel like that has to or that can be a mutual relationship? Why does it have to be only a one single direction sort of engagement? I don't know how much more we want to continue on this subject because the three of us can definitely carry on for another three hours. But I'm sure, you know, one more thing I did want. And what I keep saying this Siddharth, what I keep saying always is that more than any other sport, I think football players have the most agency than any other athlete in the country, which is and the point is that they use it well. They know how to use it and they use it and everyone say, they are too small and nobody knows them. At least they use it. At least they stand up for something. If you don't stand for anything, you fall for everything. So that's what's happened with the cricket players. They don't stand for anything. So they fall for everything. Whatever people tell them to do, they do. Whatever the power doesn't do, they do. As a small example, I was also in a bio bubble at one point for the iLeague, which is used to be the national football league till recently, the top tier that is. And that was conducted in Calcutta in again, the same bio secure bubble. But it was at a time when sort of the situation was completely flipped where the outside world was carrying on as though the coronavirus had not happened. And everyone they wanted, whereas these group of two, three hundred, five hundred people were in this very strict quarantine where we could not even go to each other's rooms to have a conversation, forget about anything else. So it was completely flipped around and this was being done from the point of view of looking at how sport can across the board for women, for at grassroots level, you know, at age group level, these tournaments were held as a kind of template, maybe a test for larger events or more events to follow in the same manner. And even then, these football players who you say have a little bit more agency, because at that time, the farmers protest movement was gathering steam. Many of them come, many of us come from the stock, many of many players are from Punjab. So, you know, they took whatever little small platform they have, and they were conscious of what's going on outside their bubble, even though most people were getting frustrated by being in it in the first place. And they voiced their concern, their solidarity for the people, their families, and the tens of thousands of nameless people that they don't know personally, but are still struggling for something. Leslie, how do you, I just want to close now, man. I'm sure you have some stuff to add. Sorry, I've taken more time than I should have. But what is the perspective from other sports? You are looking at perhaps covering the Tokyo Olympics whenever those happen. What is the perspective from other sports? How are other athletes looking at it? And, you know, sort of, what is the opinion in the sporting fraternity at large about what is happening in cricket and not happening? Generally, the thing is that if the athletes who have been, who have spoken to ranging from athletics guys to footballers, and so they all have some kind of stake in where they come from. In that sense, someone like Katie Irfan, for instance, Grace Walker, he was pretty much involved, I'm sure even now, but I spoke to him at early part of the pandemic last year. And he was directly involved in helping people, helping the old couples, old people who are there, or people who are sick or unwell, giving them supplies, providing help to a local sports club who was directly in the youngsters of the club, was directly involved in being volunteers to help people. So, at least even who are housed in hostile facilities, like the size centers and all that, I mean, those are like, I mean, like a bubble in itself or like, but they just don't get disconnected with what the reality is because they live in that world, they know that they live in the world. So, it's not about, I mean, it's probably got a lot to do with the kind of money that they earn, perhaps. There's a lot to do with that, perhaps, because they, and beyond that, I think it's also, I mean, there is a, I mean, I'll just use the Malayalam word, there is a word called, a phrase, which is, which is problem with the upbringing. So, I'm not talking about upbringing in a family, since I'm talking about upbringing in the sporting system sense. So, an Indian sports person, right from the initial stage, he or she grows up afraid of the system, because he or she knows that their fate is in the hands of the officials who sit there. So, the same applies to cricket and the same applies to any sport. So, when we talk about footballers, speaking out and their enterprise, the footballers are slightly, I mean, I'm sure Siddharth can elaborate on that a lot also. They are also independent of the system, because not every footballer has aspirations to be equal as much as certain of the elite players that he was, we asked at least for the time being. So, but they know that they can play, they know that they can make a living and they also know that they have to go back to their part of, and make a living there, be there, do something with them. So, that kind of a belonging is there among footballers that is there with wrestlers, because they wrestle in the mud and most of them come from some rural backgrounds and understand where they come from. So, that gets disconnected when you are too much part of the system of, I mean, drilling off the idea that you are our slaves that way. Your fate is in our hands and you decide what to do. And it's so ingrained in the system that even the A graders, someone like Virat told you something, someone would never go away from the system. They are there. And cricket also has a handicap, which is something that I have understood through the course of my sporting career initially and a little bit during my journalistic career as well, that every sport has a psychology attached to. And cricket is a highly individualistic pursuit. I know it's a team game. I know 11 players and all that, but everybody plays for their own record. It's a game of statistics. Your team wins, but if you have scored a duck, maybe you won't make the team the next day. So, despite how many runs you saved as a fielder, so that selfishness gets imbibed into the system. So, when I was out a little bit in Patiala and I was close to a researcher who was doing a study on this, and he had made some deductions based on his study, on at least where he said tennis players tend to, racket players tend to be selfish more than the volleyball player. Because volleyball to score a point, you need three people, three touches. You need their help. A tennis player, even when you're training, you are away on two sides of the net. It's a very individual. Selfish in that sense, it's not a negative sense as far as sport is concerned, but it just fills on your psyche. That was his direction. Of course, it's psychology, so there's always gray area and all these things. So, possibly something has stepped into the cricketer psyche also as far as selfishness is concerned. And also that idea that I mentioned about Indian sports persons generally being drilled in that follow the rule system that they have brought up with. So, they just don't stand up at all. And as far as BCCI is concerned, and this is I was teaching to talk about, we speak about IPL and its social responsibility, etc. BCCI being a cricket board, it forsake or it gave up or it turned its back towards its responsibility to the game when it changed that IPL in the UAE because it came at the price of the World Cup. And World Cup would have made a difference to a lot of smaller, I mean, 2020 World Cup in Australia, which will take place. It would have made a difference to a lot of smaller countries whose chance it was to be there and play and get some funding for that as well and get some experience for the players as well. So, that never happened. They didn't look at the larger picture of what the game needs. They just looked at what Indian cricket or the IPL needs. So, you are expecting a board or an entity to do justice to a social cause when it doesn't do justice to its own cause, on game. So, I should have written this. Sorry, Sharda, I was just going to say, we shouldn't go much on the cricket bashing sort of front because we have with us the finest fielder ever born and we don't want to anger that person or we've all grown up playing and we love and we don't, the idea is to take the pace for like fun. But like what Leslie, we were in fact talking about this a couple of days ago in the context where we are in football and where we are in cricket, right? The conversations that are happening about expanding the scope of competitions at an Asian or at a world level in football, where India is leading the thrust for more teams to play, right? That the World Cup or the ASAP would have from 16 to 24, that the AFC champions currently going on in Goa should have 40 teams including on from India. All of that and we are making the same argument that sports should be inclusive, it should expand and involve people. But the BCCI when it comes to like the last World Cup that was held has the absolute opposite stance that it's not worth our time to play against these affiliate nations. Please. Yeah, yeah, our shop should be our shop. So it's a completely, I just want to, I of course completely agree with what you said. Leslie's thing about the psychology of a sport is also very interesting. Again, we could go on for two hours and say about that. So crickets, the sort of closing in on itself is something that is being pushed almost relentlessly in conversation about, the IPL takes only two months, it's too less. And the whole thing is that it's what happens in the IPL, no Indian team ever loses, right? That's the whole eventual happiness that is there about. And so it's almost like because you have money, it's like they are trying to be the European Super League people. That's the thing that it's a little closed club. Let's keep it here. Let's only three countries play each other all the time and get the board, get board out of their bags. I just want to, just before we go, I just wanted to, I just found this out, that the ICC has gives out these development awards, which are given to smaller countries to encourage them to spread the sport and so on. And they had one, this time it was a cause cricket for social good and so on. And the global prize went to the Uganda Cricket Association. The Uganda Cricket Association during their COVID last year from March to November, they supported about 1500 people that are part of their ecosystem. So it was their players, they gave them their money, they paid out whatever they promised them. It was all their school coaches, it was all their, what they call cricket teachers because these are very, very, it's just starting out in that sense. They gave their money out to them as well as there is a neighborhood surrounding their main central sort of stadium, I think in Kampala, if I'm not wrong. And they went out to the local community from where a lot of their players come from and gave them medicines, gave them soap, gave them food stuff. So they were giving, they were giving and their annual budget is $1.1 million. That's it. And for me to hear that story, it was almost like I wanted to cry because I'm saying, just look at the opposite side, what is going on. The BCC has 6000 people, I think that are on their payroll, which includes players and officials and staff whom they pay for, like money. I don't know whether they paid them for last season. That's, we are now in the 2021 season this finishing. I don't know whether the people that have been paid because they've not played games or not. I don't know where they've got their checks. I know that in state associations, they've helped out and everything with all their Mali's and their scores and umpires and so on. But I don't know whether this has happened at the national level when the money comes in the national level. And Uganda is this other example. So just look at it. You know, it has to be in your heart to want to give rather than just take, take, take. Yeah, fair enough. I, you know, so I'm going to end this just one last bit. Again, going back to my little anecdotal survey that is more anecdotal than Superb survey. Yeah, full disclaimer on the sanctity of the survey. It is not. It's just an Instagram post. But anyway, the responses nevertheless were interesting because people took the time and it's an indicator of how valuable cricket is in, in the lives of normal Indian people because you know, artists have come out, people who perhaps generally don't follow even sport have come out and voice their opinion on what's happening in cricket and the IPL in particular. One of the things that, that there's a joke going around. There are lots of jokes going around the internet these days because so many people have offered help. So many nations have offered help to India in terms of technology, in terms of other things to deal with the medical impact of the pandemic. And one of the lines was now if only New Zealand were to send us the Prime Minister, we would be able to, we would be more effective at dealing with the crisis. The Prime Minister of New Zealand, Jacinda Arden, is a woman and how this relates to my poll is that only men said that the IPL must go on unabated as it is today. About one-third of those who responded to the poll said yes, it should continue. Two-thirds said not. All of the women who responded to this poll said no, it should not. I'm bringing these two things together because simply the question is, is there a very, very strong case for more women in leadership roles in not just cricket but sport in general? You're asking me or you're asking Leslie? Both of you can have a go. I mean I doubt it. Leslie, go first Leslie. I'm not Yoshiro Mori, the Japanese organizing committee head who had to step down. So there I can start, in fact, because it took a huge controversy and a huge campaign to make some changes in the Tokyo Olympics organizing committee and get more women participants. In fact, the chief is now a woman and we are talking about Olympic games. And so and recently there was elections at the IOA where again I didn't see a single woman in that the council panel where the elections were going to. And the same thing applies across, I can give an example of my home district in Naraflam in Pochi where just day before there was an election for the basketball association district basketball association and that's Pochi as I think around 12 to 15 college basketball teams, women's basketball teams who are pretty decent teams who could stand their own in any national level competition. And so that much of women players, girls are there who play the basketball and play basketball and they only had one representation in the district association, one woman in the district. So that's the reality across all sports. Now just in India, I guess it's right across the world where representation of women is very less in sports governing bodies and clubs you name it, any sport, any club and including sport where women are, I mean women participation is on par with men. Yeah fair enough, like the Olympics I mean one of the things in the charter in the movement is exactly that and it's super encouraging to see that we are at a stage where at least in terms of participation of athletes, we are almost at a 50-50 level and hopefully soon there will be more women participating and competing at the Olympic Games than men. So there are some positives somewhere but Sharda beyond the jokes and all of that, it does impact everyone because there is a very strong sort of culture of toxic masculinity which leads us into these kinds of situations where we are afraid to show vulnerability to speak about issues of whether it's mental health or you know and I think a lot of athletes, men, male athletes, female athletes, all of them, both kind of scenarios while they are playing sport and from that perspective, how can changing this environment in terms of the and the running of sport, how can it be done and what sort of benefits do you see it having definitely close? I think what you're saying is of course that it's important to have women in those sort of positions because you know people would say all administrative bosses are the same but they're not the same and it would be interesting to see their responses to situations and I think the reason why women are so there's a pushback against women is because men don't really want to, men in power positions of power, I'm going to say again not all men, they don't want to hear another world view because a woman's world view is different for a man's world view. They don't want to hear that world view to change the sort of narrative that they're going around with. A very interesting story is that at the Sai center in Kengeri, it was said I could be absolutely wrong again as you see as women we always sort of try and second guess ourselves put it out there, we may be making a mistake but I've gone the last time to do a story on the women's hockey team this is now a lot of time and I found out that the psychologist that was there she had no problem working with the women, the men just didn't want to talk you know the men talking to men, no psychologist as in there was a one-on-call basically in that sense. So this question of what you're saying about vulnerability or anxiety or whatever to just have that dialogue and discussion you know and look at the state in which Indian men's cricket, I always say that Indian women's cricket is in a worse position than any other women's sport in the country because every other women's sport in the country is ordered by the Olympic Charter to play the same number of events to go for training, to go for camp water, it's a complete topic. When there was a chance to sort of we know what happened to the Lodha reforms and they just collapsed into this slag heap that they've become, when there was a chance when they wanted an Indian, a cricketer to come, no male Indian cricketer said okay I'll come and be part of the panel to see how these recommendations for reform are pushed through, only Diana and LG turned up you know and then we know what happened after that. So the point is they don't want to hear it's almost like we don't hear another view. So now all the women who said that we don't think the IPL should go ahead, that was your question wasn't it or it was not being who didn't want them to go ahead, they would be shouted down at home, they would be shouted down in a public place by all these things and just as we are talking Varun Grover has put out a tweet saying that the IPL is talking about you know the thing about it being that cricket is a distraction, yeah saying that cricket is as much a distraction as a person telling a joke at a funeral, then someone has tried to amend that and say no cricket is as much as of a distraction as a person telling a joke to a person in queue for a funeral, you know surprise but that is that is what we have come to, so they'll be shouted down. So the question about being heard and we said listen you can't do this is I don't know how many women are there in the production team for example in the broadcast team, I know that there are very few women in the BCCI office they would be I don't know maybe about five or ten or something like that in a large office that there is, I don't know how much of a voice they have, what their seniority is, maybe that conversation would have been different had it been a professionally run setup you'd be able to have those conversations. The ICC has its media people that are women they had a very senior woman executive until very recently in media rights and broadcasting, Arthi Singh the boss she was there, so you know it's a very obvious thing that you need women in senior just to have a different point of view, just to say that what you are saying is nonsense you know to be able to tell the guys that what you're talking is rubbish you know it should be this it should be that that's to have an opposing view rather than this sort of cattle herd of people saying it's an entertainment business it's an employment generation is whatever you know that kind of thing. An opposing view with a mandate to be taken seriously so that probably reservation 50-50 reservation would help maybe position you need women at the helm not as a committee member I mean and also enough numbers so that so that you have you can't be shot down like you mentioned yeah that's also that's that's a problem right so you have you have had a woman for instance hockey they had a woman for the longest time as secretary right and again I mean of course the CEO of India is also a woman but but again the the power to take calls lie in lie with Mr. Vatra so it's always been me many more conversations such conversations with you guys it's been I think insightful for me thank you for allowing me to or giving me your time to host this little conversation Pabir as well who left a little while ago Sharda Leslie thank you very much I I think in outlined in a very kind of non non dogmatic non shouty way all of you what our perspective is on on this subject and and why we are talking about it and you know something that that like has really stuck with me over the last couple of days of just trying to figure out what's happening in cricket is a joint secretary of the bdca which is the the the body that controls or runs the body which is now supposedly helping out in the organization of the deli leg of the indian family so so someone is quoted as saying you know in these lockdown situations like it'll be easier for us to I mean if that is not a slap on the face of anyone or everyone that loves this sport or watches sport and feels for cricket in in the way that you guys clearly do I don't know what is and I'm gonna leave leave it at that let you make of it as viewers whatever you will irrespective the tournament is on and will continue we hope that some of these voices reach those in power so that they can even now it's never too late as a country we are responding to this crisis in a very late manner in any case so it's not too late for the bcci and the ipl to redeem itself for some of the players to take a stand and say okay enough it's time now to use our platforms for something a little more than just our very narrow self-serving money-making perspectives thank you very much once again guys thank you everyone too for who's watching this you can check this out and read all of our other coverage of sport on www.newsclick.in like subscribe and all of that but most importantly as of now stay safe stay at home as much as you can wear your masks wash your hands do all of the things that people are telling you to because there's no other way out of it except by doing the things that that we need to do thank you all for watching thank you guys again for your time goodbye