 So this meeting is now being recorded. Everything will be posted to the town of Amherst YouTube channel, and thank you everyone. Thank you. Hello, I'm Christine Graham Mullen, and this is the Jones Library Design Subcommittee meeting. It's Friday, April 29, and 9am. So we have an agenda and I'll call this meeting to order. We have myself. And two of the other members, George and Sharon Austin will not be with us today. And we have Craig, our OPM, and we have to Ellen and just being from flying gold. Alexander so we'll get going here first I have item number two minutes. April 15. I hope everyone could look at them. George and Sharon so do I hear a motion to move on approving the minutes. Motion to approve. And a second second. Thank you. Okay, were there any comments or changes that either of you want to make. Okay. All right, so we'll take a vote. And there's just three of us so yes to approve George. Yes, Sharon. Yes, myself. Yes, so Angela unanimous three. We'll move on to item three polyors project leader. We have Craig here. We have two items, the timeline and the construction costs so I'll turn it over to Craig. Right, thank you Christine. I'll share my screen I've got schedule up that'll aid in the discussion. So I'll take those two items in order, if that's okay. So schedule so you guys should be able to see. Now you should be able to see that we see it. Awesome so this is the same schedule that we that I presented at the library building committee meeting earlier this week. We are at the tail end of April right here. I'm sorry. April right here so I meant to add a red line and to help for future meetings I'll do that so we can see exactly where we are, but we're just at the beginning of the SD phase. So, find goal Alexander proposed that they start so they've got eight weeks of sort of intensive design work. And they propose that they're going to begin that on May 9. And if that's the date that we start that will bring that phase of intensive work will go May 9 through July 1. And during that time we'll have for design subcommittee meetings assuming that we go with we continue with that two times a month. I think it's second and fourth Friday of each month. So it is the typical something like that. Yeah. Yeah, so what whatever the case may be we'll have for design committee design subcommittee meetings in that in that time. So that'll be my recommendation that we give fine gold Alexander the okay to proceed with schematic design on May 9. And I don't know that we need a vote or anything but Ellen, what would you guys feel comfortable with to sort of know that you've got the official go ahead. Yeah, I don't we don't need you to take a vote but one thing we do need before then so we can start we need the programming, including the book counts and I know Sharon's working on that for us so that so that's terrific. So client changes we went over with NBLC. The other day that was really productive. So we can get on that in the confirmation of sustainability goals. We just, we think it's worth the group. Looking at what we have and just confirming that we're going in that direction, because once we start with some of these goals. There's no turning back. Some of them are simple that we do every day but some we're talking here about different structural system. And that kind of thing really has an impact on the design. Is there a list specifically of those climate issues that sustainability. I'm just being do we have some kind of. I'm not sure if it's a proper list but we have a narrative at least of what we're doing. It's not exactly in a specific document, but we do have from some of the presentations from a year or two back, we have a breakdown of what those were that we could probably use as a reference. So you're asking the design subcommittee to approve the narrative that you have on the sustainability building issues and then I mean so what are you looking for do you want a vote, approving from the full committee. I think what it typical on a lot of these projects Christine, there's, there's really big goals for sustainability as there should be. And what, you know, through our previous work with with the committees, we got to a number of sustainability goals that at that point, folks wanted. And we just are asking, maybe not it's maybe it's just not the design group, Christine maybe it's your bigger group is to read that in just let us know yes, we want to do all these things and then we'll include that in it. It's just because it's been a while. I mean, you may actually have some new people involved, and I think it would be best for everybody. If that was just tied up in a in a neat bow, just so we all know what we're doing. Okay, so what I'm hearing is this, I should pass this on to Austin, the chair of the larger group and this. I that's what I think but you guys would know better Craig I'm not sure you know I don't. I really'm not, I shouldn't tell you what how to do it but we're just looking for directions from you we can provide you with the information you need. And then we can get feedback from you that would be terrific. I'm sorry to interrupt you Craig but so we would have it in our trustee meeting minutes and I can certainly have that available for the next larger Jones Library Building Committee meeting so we could have a vote then. But I guess my even before we, we could approve that my only concern is what that means for the budget and. You know we had talked about that's one way to save money. So on the one hand, I want to tell you yes move forward, but then how difficult is it later on to scratch something. Well, it's difficult to not everything right because some things are easy but it's when we're talking about structural system. That's a little harder to do. And I think I believe Sharon we in just been correct me if I'm wrong we had some budget numbers for you pre coven right of what those numbers were and we know since covert numbers have gone up. But we can share that with you if you if you don't if you can't find it we do have some rough numbers. Yeah no we we have it and so so I'm specifically talking about the clt for example, you know I know that by cutting that out that could save us what was it $360,000 something like that. But so does that mean you need to hear from us now that we want to cut that out. Boy that is. Yeah. So this could become very like if, if we're trying to get an approved, you know, recommendation or like a thumbs up from the committee at large. I think we need almost like a bullet list of what we're saying yes we're moving. We want them to include in the schematic design. Yeah for you I have. Okay, great. Just bring it to that committee that large committee it could be require a lot of explaining. If it's the first time this is happening. So maybe we do need to discuss it here in the design and we hear all the details and it gets vetted out a little and then we vote a recommendation for the committee at large to support it. You follow what I'm saying. I do. I'm not even sure that it's, I think the discussion is more about the budget than it is about a design issue so I don't know what we in this subcommittee really have to talk about because. Well, and maybe this is just me but yes we want clt yes we want the solar panels yes we want all of those ECMs that the trustees approved that hasn't changed. The larger committee would be talking about the budget and so things could change there. Right but then it's a lot so what I'm saying is I know you really know all this, but I like don't and then again public and right now we're trying to solicit opinions from the public and for ones that are following this closely. And then these meetings generate newspaper articles and such and that it educates them. So it puts a lot on the committee if you're taking apart all the sustainability issues and explaining them, and then trying to vet out can we afford them and do we need them. I'm only thinking about the timing so if if this committee is going to talk about it you're going to have to wait two weeks, and then and then after that discussion it then it would go back to the the full JLBC, so then it wouldn't get back to Ellen. Timing is not our friend right now. I'm going to push it back to Ellen it looking at Craig's calendar here, if it was a month from now that's the end of May is that too late for these in your design. And that makes me nervous what else is very time sensitive. Now, those are the most time sense sensitive ones and that was we that was in our proposal. And I don't want us to sound like we're being tests, because we're not we're trying to save you guys aggravation later. Right. Because if we go down the road and, you know, we're really over budget and we can't afford some of those things we have to go back and change it all. And that's time and money, and we're trying to avoid that, because we have an aggressive eight week period which is all well and good we can do all our work within that time, but we don't want to set you up and us up for an issue at the end of this phase. Yeah, I just feel like we'll have to have this entire discussion at the next building committee meeting. When is that meeting this mice, then my agenda says may 10th. Okay. Would it be helpful if one of us was at that meeting, probably. I think that has to be. Yeah, okay, that's fine. It's at 430. That's fine. In what we just seen what we should do is circle back with our structural engineer. And just to see when it's critical for her to know that. I'm assuming it's beginning of the phase but she may have a little wiggle room. Yeah, we can do that. Yeah, okay, why don't we do that we'll, we'll go through Craig and let you know what she says but if you send us an invitation to that meeting. We can attend one or two or three of us will attend, and it's virtual. Yeah. Yes, we'll do that. So Sharon, if you can get that list out of those library trustee minutes. Yeah, and, you know, sort of, and then can you send that to Austin explain him on his agenda. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Um, Craig, I have a question about the schedule. So, if, if the eight weeks schematic design was starting on May 9. And I'm looking at the schedule and you roll out eight weeks right. So you have this taper down, you know, triangle. And actually the rectangle itself is past probably what is July 9. What does that mean like so when it's eight weeks is it a hard eight weeks. So, so the down on the left side of the schedule are the different things we're tracking. So the design phase that we're talking about is this blue bar. So SD stands for schematic design so that blue bar there. This larger area with these with the taper and the rectangle, sort of this golden color is public commentary. And this was something that the building committee asked us to show graphically the period of greatest impact of public commentary on the project, which is during schematic design, and then the period of impact on certain aspects of the project specifically, you know, color selections interior materials decisions that are made later in the process, kind of going into design development but then that as that taper indicates. The longer the deeper into that phase we go the less a particular comment, the less impact a particular comment might have. So we've sort of got this like window of say approximately six months, where that public commentary can really be rolled in and have a big impact on the design, but then sort of beyond that. Now we're into the point where if someone comes up with a great idea and the library building committee says yes we want to pursue this. It will involve sort of taking some steps back. And then of course naturally there'd be a time consequence, a cost consequence. So those will be things that would have to be factor in again, if someone comes up with a fantastic idea and everyone gets behind it and says we got to do this. It can be done. It just will have at that point will analyze. What's the time implication what are the cost implications, and then the building committee can make an informed decision. But what Ellen was bringing up is that that's some of these design sustainability issues or I assume some other design issues really have to be decided pretty much now or in the next couple weeks or it's costly. Yes. And so, talking about the schedule, talking about the budget, talking about these design kind of let's say parameters, they're all interconnected. And so yes there are certain aspects sustainability something that town has indicated is very important to them. And there are certain decisions that we're going to the building committee is going to have to make. Having that list of kind of these are the things that are up for discussion, and then having kind of an understanding of the magnitude of cost will be important for them to see kind of all in one place and then have a robust discussion about which ones are costs must haves and those must haves are ones that find gold Alexander will carry on with, given the, the cost as the recent cost estimate and the awareness that we're the construction costs is over budget. That will have to be in sort of the forefront of everyone's mind so when we're reviewing the different options. That everyone will have to consider. So, you know the goal, the process is the design process is iterative. That means, you know, there's, we always had sort of have, you know, evaluating things or find gold Alexander and the building committee are evaluating things kind of working forwards backwards, you know, kind of towards the ultimate design, but there are some decisions as Ellen was indicating that do need to be made kind of upfront. Yeah. Can I interrupt for a minute so Jim Alexander is one of the attendees and he has his hand raised. Christine would it be okay for me to invite him to speak. Oh sure I was like I don't see his hand I don't see him sure yes. Oh. Angie took care of it. There. Can you hear me. Yeah. That's why I just had a quick question. I wondered if did the budget get updated Ellen in the in the last few weeks. It did so we're we're so everything is being looked at with that in mind. Yeah, yes. Yes, and the thing that I was, and I was didn't want to interrupt it. So, what I think we need to do Craig is the exercise that we had shameless do when we're evaluating the sustainability goals pre COVID, we should have him look at those numbers again, because those numbers are going to be higher. We don't, meaning if we change our, what we're going to do on some things the savings may be greater than we're thinking. So, we can, we can send you what we have on that Craig and I'm sure we could get shameless to turn around pretty quick because it's not a big exercise for him. That's great that's what I was thinking too. I agree that that'll be important information for the building committee to have in order to make informed decisions. Thank you. So if there are any other things like this that can be brought to the design committee as soon as possible the sort of like, oh, if we don't decide things now it's going to, you know, cause problems later. We can put them up or you know have me put them on the agenda. You know, Craig, if you see things because, you know, already this is the first meeting and we're like, sort of skipping here and sending it right to the committee and scrambling which this is what happens it's like we wait, wait, wait, and then the start gun goes and we're all like. Right. Yeah, one thing with Christina, just in we had three items we program we got covered, because Sharon is working on that as we speak. The sustainability was there a third. To cover for this morning you mean, yeah, for the agenda items from the things that we felt as though we want to bring to the committee and. I think those. Yeah, those were pretty much it we wanted to, you know, make sure we're starting off with the correct set of plans. And of course that includes sustainability goals and then yeah just the programming. Okay, and book, etc. It's only so it's only those two items. That's good. George, and Sharon, do you have any questions on this schedule. No, not for me. George. Okay, so yeah Craig if it would be helpful to have like a current line like where we are, and maybe also put where that eight week actually ends. You know I know it's the SD phase there. But is people look at this I think we all have to really keep in our head that that's when this phases is to be done. You got it. So you have cost construction costs. Good news. So, I'll start by showing the current total construction cost in our budget. So that's this figure and this is in thousands. So it's escalated construction costs, 26, say $.9 million. So that's what we figured in to Amherst overall budget which works with the, I think it's 36 point, let's say $3 million total project budget. So what we received recently was the update to the cost estimate. This was discussed at the building committee but I'll go through it again quickly here. So that's kind of the bottom the meat of it here 30.3 million dollars construction cost estimate so that's 33 30.3 in comparison to the 26.9 that we've got budgeted. So project as of this moment is over budget by 3.4 million or about 13%. Now, at the building committee I emphasize how this is really preliminary. So this cost estimate includes a ton of assumptions include both about the design of the project what's in the project was not in the project, as well as what's going to happen with the market between now and when you project goes out to bed. So, while this is a good indicator, I don't think we necessarily need to hit the panic button. I don't want to speak for final Alexander but I think the idea of the design process or one of the main goals of the design process and that iterative, you know, design, take a look at another cost estimate, see where we are. Change things if needed to develop design further another cost estimate look where we are change things if needed. So the purpose, the function of that process is to deliver a design to you got to the town that meets the budget. And maybe Ellen I'll turn things over to you I know we had a quick discussion about this. The other day with Sharon and some of the ideas and thoughts you had shared. Were I think helpful. So, right and we, we agree with Craig not to hit the panic button because the what was estimated was very conceptual, right. It was architectural plans elevations in written narratives of the different systems so it wasn't a lot of engineering that was done. So at that point, this, this estimator who we use quite often, a fantasy consultant has to make as Craig said, a bunch of assumptions so so that's what we, we suggest that we keep, we move on with this in mind that we have this gap at the moment in, in design with the thought of not thought with the mission of bringing down the cost. Right. So being clear to the engineers, we're trying to save money here, give us some options for a streamline system for mechanical structural. So we look at the finishes and the cladding, and we can have a series of options built into the drawings, so they can be priced. You know different cladding materials they may look similar but that you know one may be a better price point than another and the same on the interiors. And that's when we start making choices. Like when you're shopping in a store you're like, is this this and this what can I afford and what will work. So this is sort of twofold. This is just because the public doesn't know this is like a subcontractor that you hire, and this is what they do, they do estimates. Yes. And there was an estimate at the beginning that was very conservative and had a lot of markups and made for this kind of and you know, because inflation and things happen. Right. So this number this fantasy like this starts getting tighter and tighter as we start making design design decisions. Correct. And one thing I did want to make note of is that the numbers that we had originally that we were designing to were pre coven. And the most people, maybe not most people if you're not in the construction business you may not realize it but the cost of construction materials has skyrocketed. And it partly it's supplying demand as part of it, and it just shortage of labor, where that's going to go, nobody knows, right so it's good that we're starting this process because it could be even worse in five years. But we're mindful and we can set it up that we do, you know, working with Josephine will have a series of different alternates for different finishes and, and try to get to the to the number we do know after our meeting with MBLC. We cannot reduce the size of the building. That's just not going to happen in their mind. And we did we've already reduced it. So they've been flexible with us to this point. And they made it very clear. There's no wiggle room. Excellent to know. Thank you. Craig, do you have anything else or I'll open it to questions to Georgia Sharon. Nothing else. Any questions I Sharon I see your hand. Yeah, I just wanted Craig for the audience so can you can, can you explain at the building committee meeting, we were talking about a $6 million overage and now you're saying it's only 3.4 only 3.4 million. And why those numbers have changed. Certainly. So they're two different numbers so what we, what the project had done prior to say the pause is back in 2020. The DSE consulting services did a construction, a cost estimate, based on the drawings that were available at the time, and came up with a, you know, a total project cost of 24.8 million. So this is a document from 2020. So, once the project started up again, just recently. Everyone recognizes that, you know, market, the market has changed costs as from two years ago is not super helpful. We needed an update. So without any new information. Just responding to how things have changed in the market. And then Fentasy provided this document, which shows reflects what's happened in the market over the last two years, and total construction costs of 30.3 million. And so that delta between 24.8 and 30.3 2020 to 2022 was that five and a half or $6 million we're talking about. So that's just the construction cost estimate. And that's how much we think the billions of cost, but we have a budget. And so that budget wasn't for that did not perfectly align with that does not perfectly align with that old cost estimate actually has some extra capacity in it. And so the current budget is 26.9 million. So the delta between our current budget and our current cost estimate is that 3.4 million. So when we talk about that's five and a half to six million that the difference between 2020 and 2022 how much we think the bill is going to cost. But the 3.4 million is how much we have budgeted now versus how much we think it's going to cost now. Does that answer the question. Perfect. Thank you. That was great. A lot of numbers but great. Sorry. No, it's good. And just again for the public, like it would have normally like we're talking oh we had COVID and you know these supply chains and inflation, you know, so, but this, this discussion would have happened anyways because as time goes by, everything keeps increasing so it's not like it would have stayed the same. All right. So, um, if we move on to item. Thank you Craig item for Ellen design status. Well, I give it can give you a quick update. We had a really great meeting with MBLC staff. I forget what day it was. It was earlier this week with Sharon and Craig and Justine and I. They're really excited that we're moving forward, which is great. So we, we, we reviewed the plans. We reviewed some of Sharon's staff comments. So I think we're in a really good place to really get going. They gave us some of their comments of one thing that we should keep in mind they're very concerned about sight lines in the library. Right. This is, this is the, the way that libraries are going this way for safety. Right. So that's on that's top on our priority. How do we get the sight lines, but we also have a little bit of a challenge because we have the historic structures report. So we have to really play a balance there. So that will be part of our. You know, one of our design challenges in this is getting at the sight lines that we all know we need, but also working within the working with the historic structures report. But, but I think we're in a good place with just those couple of things. Christine, we're, we're rare in a go. All right, so for design status. So, May 9th is when you're like, yeah, officially starting and you've told us everything that you need either from the library or the trustees or the committee. Yes. Okay. And that should be coming. That's great. Does anyone have any questions for any of the design team. Don't see any hands up. Okay. Thank you. So item five. This is the outreach subcommittee, they're having their open house on Sunday. It's from noon to two. Again, May 1st on Sunday. I plan on being there to help. I don't know. Sharon, I assume you're going to be there. So it sounds like it's going to be a great event. I don't know, Sharon, do you want to say anything about it? Yeah, so it's definitely, it's turned, it's very much a community driven event. Folks are being invited to come. There are 1617 different tables set up throughout the library. And each table has a different focus, whether it's historic preservation or seniors or, you know, adult collections, that kind of thing. So if you wander the building, there are sticky notes and magic markers everywhere and you're just going to write down your thoughts, comments, concerns, hopes, dreams and all of that. There's a couple of Q&A tables. So if you have questions, you can come to those tables and we'll try and answer them. There's also, there will be children's activities outside under the tent. It looks like the day is going to be absolutely beautiful. We have an Avenger Hunt in the building going between the different tables so that kids can participate inside as well. We have a big contingent of teens that will be coming, you know, to give their thoughts. So just come out and have fun. That's what we're looking for. Thank you. Great. And it looks really well planned. I've been following all the documents. So it's from noon to two, but it's really a drop in drop out thing. So it's not like people come and there's a presentation and there's like that you just come in anytime and leave thoughts. Help us do this. Come and visit one or two tables, visit all the tables or, you know, whatever you want to do. Yeah, we're not going to lecture you about anything. That's what I was wondering people might want to just come because we have to suck them in from outside in the gory beautiful day, you know, so they can dip in dip out sounds excellent. So I'll move on to item six, which is topics not anticipated by the chair. I do want to bring up something that came up because we had a full committee meeting on Tuesday, and we were trying to figure out systematically how we're going to work all this. So right now, like we have this outreach event where we're collecting feedback and ideas to, you know, try to see how we can make them work. But then we have our own committee and right now we only have Sharon and George and I that are on this but there's other Jones building committee members who want to bring up ideas or feedback or and one of them that came up with the non gender, you know, bathrooms or whatever. So how should we flow ideas. And this is also for the outlook what we collect from Sunday, how does fine gold Alexander want us to be through Craig I assume to handle this in the most efficient and systematic way, rather than jumping from thing to thing. So Christine we just started this on another project where the client has a million changes and it was hard for us to keep track not suggesting you guys are going to have one but if we have, if we, I'm not sure who would do it is compile a list, maybe in Excel spreadsheet of the comments and the items so then we can track them. Right and then we can sit as a group and say, you know, and maybe every couple of, maybe we take 20 minutes to half an hour at each of our meetings, just to run through some of the comments and then get into action. This is something we should continue to look at or is this something, oh it's really not going to fit with our program, or it's not allowed by MVLC, but I would suggest we do that because there should be a running list. Yes, I agree with Ellen 100%. And I think the I haven't read the Charter of the building committee or the subcommittees but the way I kind of see it happening is outreach collects up the information roughly categorizes it. And that's kind of an ongoing process that gets handed over to the design subcommittee design subcommittee takes a look at it with solicits advice from fine gold Alexander my office and we sort of chew it over, then the items that are recommended or not recommended to go forward. You guys hand those up to the building committee and building committee makes the ultimate decision. So that would be my recommendation kind of that that process a three step process. There's a spreadsheet or something or a list that so we'll get some in big clumps but what about like an individual one like say what happened to the building committee. My recommendation would be to use, and we have to work on the details but to use some kind of web based document. Yeah, that we can, you know with, you know track changes on that we can see all the comments and then it's kind of like a living document. It would have to be managed, whoever from say the if outreach is responsible for compiling information, they would have we'd have to develop a system with them where things are either dated or somehow track so that things don't just appear, but rather we see okay here's the new items. All right. Let's absorb those into the conversation. Let's take a look at those. Right and I think one of the key pieces is make sure they're dated so the way we're setting this other one up is that we have the item and make sure they're all numbered. And then, when we receive the comment and then a section for notes. So that way we can track when things are coming in and we can see, oh this question's been asked, you know on a number of different dates. So it's something that would be helpful for us. Right, similar because that's true. I mean one person can ask but when you see something trending where many, many people are asking then that should take a little bit more priority. Oh yeah, definitely. And then possibly that document could even serve a function as like a main document, or primary document where we can also track how it was dealt with. Discussed at design subcommittee discussed at building committee incorporated into the project or discussed discussed not incorporated just as a way to then kind of close that loop. So there's lots of topics design issues that are going to come up and cause a lot of discussion, probably in the building committee. You know, it was like the gender issues of bathrooms was one but it could be the sustainability issues that it could be a cafe. I don't know. So if, and I hate to see, and I know Austin doesn't want this either one we're starting to get in the weeds and that mean I mean that's the whole reason why this design subcommittee sort of exists. So, is there a way, Craig that we can sort of give some instruction and guidance to the whole building committee about this at the next meeting how, because I get it like I'm here Sharon's here George, you know we have an easier way to voice our little passions and wants and you know, and they want their voice here too so how do we make them feel better that their issues are going to get addressed. So, similar to the process I just described for bringing public feedback in processing it. I think it'll be a similar process for things being discussed here in the subcommittee and the various other subcommittees. I'm talking about the code implications talking about the costs the facts the figures and having a discussion about it distilling that down to a recommendation, and then offering that up sort of executive summary style to the building committee to make an ultimate decision and some things they'll I'm sure go with the recommendation of this subcommittee or other subcommittees, but then other things they may want to consider more or send back to you guys, overturn or go in a different direction. Also in parallel with that so that's kind of feeding information up the chain, and then in parallel to that items that they identify as being important and they say this is something that should be discussed, you know researched discussed at the design committee level subcommittee level, they'll send those down. And same thing, you know we can as a group can do the legwork. We can do all the data collection, formulating a formulating an opinion, and then offering that back up to the building committee. Okay, so, and I'm just harping on this one because I know it's going to happen almost every meeting so at the last building committee meeting the, you know, how many gender bathrooms to have so as Ellen brought up earlier, you know some of these things really change the design and I know from designing, you know how many bathrooms and where they're going and how big or small they are as a really big thing. So I understand where there's, you know, there starts to be this panic of like, you don't want to miss the opportunity to get the max and, you know, things like, you know, is there a plumbing variance needed or whatever all that will take time so for something like this. What can I go back to that meeting on the 10th and say, Oh, we're going to discuss that. Is that in a month, two months. I think the, the, the quicker and more nimble we are the better. So loud, you know, using the gender inclusivity as a kind of an example. So that's something that we heard loud and clear at the building committee. So right away, I'll feed that information over to the design team and say, Hey, this is what this is come up. This is really important issue. Can you look into it a little bit, pull together some information that you can then present that the next design subcommittee. And you did just that. Exactly. And then we can, we can talk about it. We can talk about sort of like the code implications. How many bathrooms there currently are what, you know, in general, we're seeing kind of in other, you know, projects, analyze it, discuss it. And then same thing, sort of report back to the building committee and say, This is what we talked about. This is what we recommend, or if there's if it's something that's bigger, we recognize this is bigger than just the design subcommittee. We're not making a recommendation, but this is what we've looked into this is what we found building committee, you know, please consider. So, so when would this come to the design subcommittee to have a discussion about. So if angle Alexander does have some preliminary I just gave them the heads up maybe a dare to go, but if they do have some preliminary thoughts on this particular topic, I think now would be a perfect time. Yeah, and my quit and just the interesting thing just seems working on a project at Boston University and they're dealing with this right now. So she has some good background. My question to the group, and maybe just being you can chime in on what's happening at BU is, is it all the bathrooms or do will some people in town not feel comfortable with that and want, you know, a woman's in a men's room and do you want one of those or two of those that's that's my question and just mean I don't know what your your experience was at BU with that as is it everything. Yeah, and just to add to that Ellen, some of it is desire of course as I think Craig had mentioned that some of it is code implication of course that we're reaching all of the numbers. And of course core footage, depending on how you want that layout. So it is going to be a work in progress as we move forward. At the moment. Yes, I'm working on a project where we have a couple of gender, you know, gender neutral bathrooms and then we had a gang of male and female bathrooms and what we did was pretty much we're getting all the fixtures to be the same in both bathrooms. At the moment, how they move forward with that. So there's no urinals. There are. Okay, sorry. There are. Yeah, but any other fixtures will be the same within fixtures, equipment appliances, everything will be the same in both bathrooms. So it will vary on a couple of different matters but some of that will be on what you folks are looking for as well. And just what Ellen was, was noting. Right in just being we do. One of our questions is the implications of the plumbing counts. It affects them. So we're going to go back to our plumbing engineer and ask that, but this is new for a lot of folks but so it's a it's just been saying it's evolving. And it's just what the appetite for Amherst is I was just in New York City at a hotel using the lobby bathroom, it was gender neutral, which is fine but I don't think everybody as long as people are comfortable, we're we can design that for you. And ask that that was actually my question so I think I could be wrong, but I think the initial desire is for all the bathrooms to be gender neutral. So, but my question to I thought I heard at the building committee that that couldn't happen because of code. Could it happen. I think it could. Okay, okay. That's exactly what we need to loop it. A confirmation with our consultant as we move forward. So this will be a part of the, the bigger building committee discussion if they want all of them. I think that's the desire. Right so just the reason that this is a question is that when we're designing. There's more fixtures so there's more toilets and sinks in a woman's room than there is men's room. And now we have to figure out how do we split it do we do 5050 so it's just, it's, it's just that kind of level of detail that we need to get which we can get to it's just it's little research. Got it. Thank you. So can you present a couple of options because we're still unclear. You know, all of them, or most of them are, you know, more, because like you said it's been a process so the slow process has been those like family bathrooms are becoming more and more, but you can't have like 16 of those, you know, so there's these new designs that are evolving. I understand that. So like, building code requires, you know, the square footage and how many anticipated people and then they come up with a number of how many fixtures or you mean toilets. Yeah, have to be like on that floor. So then where you're changing the surround you have to go to the flying board and asked for like a variance and have they been. I mean, many of these all exclusive. I mean all gender neutral bathrooms. I don't, I, that I don't know the, I don't, I'm not sure Christine we would need a variance that's what we have to sort out. So what we will, we'll also do it will check with MBLC what they're seeing in the libraries now right because they're on this day to day what the libraries are doing because the gender neutral bathrooms are fine for many people, but it may not be so it's just, what is that balance and what you know what's the different, the, you know, one town may have a, you know, older population and wouldn't want that as much so let us do a little more research and we'll come back to the right to the next meeting with a little more information. Yeah, go ahead. One thing I wanted to say I have a, I have a hard stop at 11 at 10. We have someone out who just got married and they're on their honeymoon and I'm the only one who can cover the meeting. So I hope it just being can stay with you. But I will have to stop at 10. No problem. You cut out when you need to. Okay, thank you. So just I just want to you brought up a point before that. So kind of the old way of building was all the bathrooms were either male or female. And then we started this process of creating, you know, family bathrooms or everybody bathrooms, and they were a small percentage. So part of maybe what happens is that we just have almost all gender neutral bathrooms, but they might instead we end up with a female bathroom or fit like, because the whole point is everybody has to feel safe and comfortable with where they have to go the bathroom. So there's the making it, you know, trying to do the right thing to everybody again it's a balance. So my last question is, in doing all this adjusting. I was just asking, it's not to, you know, does it cost more like bathrooms are expensive I know that changing this around is that pricey. I don't. We don't know that because we don't know if we're going to increase the count of fixtures it's not crazy Christine right it's just, we have the bathrooms now and it's if it's adding four more fixtures that's not going to bust your budget. And the more important thing is to get it right right for the town of Amherst because every town is different. So yeah, we can work with you and work with, you know, our consultants and get us through this. Okay, it's new new I see George your hands up. I was just going to make the comment that you know I remember in the beginning that everybody was pretty much in agreement that we wanted to have gender neutral bathrooms, but it's my thought that say if we finish the building to gender neutral bathrooms and there's a huge outcry. It's a lot easier to backtrack and create this male female specific bathrooms then try to turn male female specific bathrooms into gender neutral bathroom. So if we went forward with all gender neutral bathrooms and how to freak out later on down the road, it'd be easier. It would be easier to accommodate those people. That's true. Good point. All right, are there any other questions or hands or comments. I'm going to roll into item seven which is public comment and Angela I'll probably need your help with this. Is there anyone in the attendees who have a question or would like to speak, put up your hand now and we'll look yep. So there's seven people in the room, but it does not appear anyone is raising their hand so I just want to double check that our next meeting is on the 13th at 9am. And since we still have Ellen here is this time all right like we we've been rolling on this Friday every other Friday at nine. This is all right with you and Craig. Yes, it works for me and I you know typically I don't have to attend this other meeting but I'm just covering. And it works for you just me and I think it works for Tony because he was his plan was to join us today. So it does become problematic as we roll on, you know, I mean there's only three of us so we can probably four with Austin we can, you know, adjust so okay that will be the next meeting. So this is subcommittee I'm just going to say we're adjourned at 954. So everyone have a great weekend thank you so much for coming and see you soon have a good weekend. Bye.