 Power and Difference a program that we have launched this year for the first time in here in UPF in the Department of Communication and also a program that we we are very proud of because it's unique master in Spain and almost unique in the whole world actually where students have a chance to study and research issues regarding the construction the representation and the recognition of difference and diversity through the lens of the most vulnerable groups and when I say vulnerable groups, I mean vulnerable in a very expanded way including humans non-humans poverty gender issues children women issues, etc the study of otherness of diversity through the optic of social communication is actually a top field in research everywhere and also the representation of otherness in media is a big challenge for professionals currently everywhere as well and therefore we are very proud to be able to contribute to this and to be able to to put into the world professionals and researchers who are ready to build a more if you want fair inclusive and compassionate communication and society and To celebrate this first opening and this master and having all of you here We have prepared a double session for this afternoon first as you know, we will have lecture by one of our most international and renowned researchers at UPF Dr. Paula Casal who is ready there already and Second we will have we will show unity a documentary that is almost a premiere in Barcelona Almost it has been only showed once in Barcelona last September and which we think fits very well into the profile the ethical profile and the Inclusive approach of our program because unity as our program Addresses what truly means to be human in this planet? Due to time constraint the Speech the power speech will be a little bit short in order to have a 10 15 minutes at the end of the speech for questions or discussion or comments And then we will move straight to the string the screening So if you have more comments or questions, you will have the opportunity to Rise them at the end of the session in the hole when everything is finished So it is my pleasure to introduce you dr. Paula Casal and to give you a few Insights about her dr. Casal is an in Korea research professor at the law department of UPF She had previously taught at reading university and at killer university in the United Kingdom She had been a research fellow at Harvard University at University Catholic the Louvain and also at Oxford University Her work has appeared in many many different important journals as ethics economics and philosophy or Journal of medical ethics he party a journal of global ethics journal of moral philosophy Journal of political philosophy political studies till it does etc She is currently an associate editor of the journal politics philosophy and economics and also the co-editor of law ethics and Philosophy she is also the president of the great a project in Spain and also a board member of the academic NGO academics stand against poverty She has in short one of the most outstanding and international research profiles on issues related to social justice poverty animal ethics gender Interculturalism bioethics amongst others and she has also a pretty busy agenda So we really appreciate and feel honored to have her here with us this afternoon She is going to speak about why persons have rights a very Interesting and intriguing Topic and so thank you very much for being here Paula. Thank you for inviting me, but we don't see the We don't So I had prepared material for a lot longer But I think it's not a good idea to give a talk and disappear without giving the people a chance to Disagree or ask questions So I'm going to try to go faster over the material which means I would not be able to store very much in some slides But I'm interested in You know getting a sense of what you make of my views Okay, so my plan is to spend maybe five minutes or so in distinguishing humans and other persons then To explain why you see that most persons that are not humans are still mammals and whether they could be other persons that are Not mammals, maybe not even animals Then what follows ethically from this discussion? for example, would they have rights as well and Some consider some other ethical implications Can you move over there please so that I can see your time signal Okay, so first persons we don't want to talk about legal persons We know I work in a law department. Of course there are corporations that are persons And they're not human and they have legal rights But we are not talking about persons in that sense We're talking about individuals with some ethical standing So they have been discussed through the history of philosophy in this other Non-legal sense initially it was the masks in the Roman in the Greek theater That had the name persona because they represented characters or persons So in English you still say This is your public persona, you know in that Greek sense Then they came to be employed to distinguish Persons and slaves so to be a person was not to be a slave Of course, I'm campaigning so that the great apes are not slaves, which is what they are in this and in the case of other Entities I would call them entities like robots that some people say are persons the Abilities that they remain slaves and they don't take cover There are some people like a Nick post room who think that of course They would be not human persons because all of us are going to stop being human because we will engineer ourselves To the point that we will stop being humans and become transhumans or post humans and still remain persons, but he's also extremely worried about Robot persons taking over the world and coming to dominators, which is like the the new version of the planet of the apes No, they know first the non-human persons come to dominate us You know and all all over the the world there are cultures that talk about supernatural entities that or Beings from other space that come to enslave Human persons and they are also persons, but not human Okay, so the most Widely used definition of personhood is still the definition that Locke gave in 1666 he was published three years later and the idea is that you're a person if you are that intelligent thinking being that has Reason and reflection and you can think of yourself as that thinking creature Over time so you were thinking about it yesterday You will continue to think now and you would be thinking in the future So that that continuity of thinking and awareness of thinking is what makes you a person Okay, this is Bonobo for example with a characteristic here with center parting and They are Now the way our scientists Try to measure or distinguish who is a person who is not the most common one is called the Gallup test or the mirror test so the children until they are One and a half they normally fail the mirror test So they they paint like in this case a black nose and the boy You know doesn't see anything we are when encountering a mirror Dogs, you know, they might leak or bark at the image without realizing is them while the great apes for example or elephants They they would know this immediately, you know, like the orangutan there says what is this blonde be doing here? I'm a red head know have always been Okay, so The test for being a person is for being a human is very different you test something and if it has DNA of Homo sapiens is a human and if you can recognize yourself in a mirror or in In a TV camera and you can think of yourself across time then you are a person in the case of the the The Holy Ghost and God and Jesus Christ for example we have Part of the theological tradition this separation between the human and the person where we have Three people three persons and only one of them was supposed to have Homo sapiens DNA No, the Sun while the other ones didn't have any DNA because they were Immaterial and across the world you have find the same pattern. No, there's one chief code in Egypt the Sun or in or in Greece and the mates with Human and then he has a son that is a hero and performs great actions And it's always this distinction between person and human appearing in religions Okay, so that gives us a separation of Entities in two groups. No the one hand we have Non-human persons like angels for example or great apes or made for some people robots and on the other hand we have humans that Like Tutankhamun is not a person because he's not thinking of itself in any way because it's dead or People who are in a irreversible Commodore situation or babies or Anencephalus babies that are not persons now and they will never they will never be so one of the Issues that these races is that maybe the idea of Human rights doesn't make very much sense because the fact that you have DNA of Homo sapiens is not related to What really matters from point of view of ethics and it is not related to the idea of personhood So at least you have to talk about human persons and maybe some of the Persons that are not human would have at least some rights as well, but we talk about this later So this is like the most extensive List of features of of personhood is actually not about personhood but Humanity and I put in red the the ones that I am skeptical about robots Satisfying you know such as you know change or curiosity or but some of them aren't really very important like Neocortical function. It doesn't matter where this is located and in fact We haven't studied all the birds But it's quite likely that we would find more persons and it wouldn't be in the neocortex It would be somewhere else that they locate the functions that we consider important. So let's um, see Mammalian persons are most of the persons that have been tested and have been found to have definitely all of the long list Not just the log definition, but the long list of features of personhood are mammals, right? They are Elephants in asian africa and some dolphins Orcas and all all all of the great apes, you know, so they bonobo the gorilla the chimpanzee and the orangutan And I found that there's a long list of features that all of these species have even though they are quite different in some respects And so I made a list of all of these things thinking that they had to be related Some in some way because it was too much of a coincidence that all of the Animals that have managed to pass the mirror test also have this long list of characteristics No, like they have pregnancies without twins. No or having twins is a variety They're very long. They have lots of neurons mirror and spinal neurons They have a very prolonged lactation. They have Intraspecific altruism So there are stories of them saving creatures of other species including in humans They're very large, you know, they why should people, you know Why should all persons be so large and have a large brain? Not only because they're large but proportionally very large And they have cultural to use which means not only they use tools But they use them because they learn from another creature using them And they have the three tools and they have language and they have longevity And I came to you know think about all of these how they could be related And I think the key to all of this and to put the puzzle together Is that they're all in the stream of the k-reproduction So, you know in biology the biologists classify species by the word that they are more like our reproduction of k So if they have loads and lots of offspring and they invest very little on it Or they have very few but they invest massively on on them So all of the persons including humans we are in in one stream Which is why, you know, we have massive investment from the beginning You know like the elephant, you know, 22 months pregnancy the orcas, you know, 18 months All of them take a long time Then after that there comes many years of lactation I have for example, this is the years for For the great apes And this is not important in itself because as you know with human children They can eat other stuff, you know, they just continue to breastfeed so that you don't get pregnant because You have to teach the creatures so much and there's so much work that it's impossible to handle You know, in orangutan, you know, a single mom in the forest living 30 meters up in the canopy where the The offspring can fall off and die She's so busy that if she gets two she just, you know, wouldn't be able to manage So she needs to lactate for eight years so that she can manage to Explain to the offspring all the 22 different types of tools that orangutans have and what are they supposed to eat What is a good idea to eat when you have constipation of the area or parasites and how to open certain things What do you eat in different times of the year and so on? And so it takes a long time and you know in the case of dolphins that also Takes them quite a long time for the mothers to tell them how to use bubbles have to use sponges have to use cells and other tools in the case of orcas how to Recorgetate food in order to hunt And and because it takes so long that they have to have these very prolonged Childhoods with mothers teaching them in in exercises A here are some very well known examples of of tool use like the termites and and the gorillas are the ones that Have been photographed less often Using tools and I think this planation is likely to be the same reason why The females are using more of the tools so They have more nutritional needs because they have pregnancy they have infants to feed They have less strength. They're smaller and with the smaller teeth So the male gorilla which has gone crack the nut and then the female would have to you know Be there with a stone smashing something and also they are not Fond of of killing in the same way. No, the chimpanzees would go in a group and you know kill a bonobo and then Or a bonobo. I'm sorry a colobo monkey And and then they would have a lot of protein and because the females prefer not to they They will use termites or get the protein in in a different way. Okay So see he's measuring the depth of the rivers to know that This is a safe area where they offspring can cross without Without drowning because the great apes like humans can learn to swim, but they don't they're not natural swimmers So she has to measure that and so the existence of all of these Neurons in the brain is related to both of these functions On the one hand in order to copy and imitate and learn cultures You need to have a lot of new mirror neurons, which is why all of these creatures have lots of mirror neurons in their brain And also for empathy So you need to understand what is wrong with these creatures because you have so few of them that if one of them dies Is a disaster for you so you have to find out when they cry Are they thirsty? Are they hungry? Are they tired? Are they, you know, maybe they're really very difficult to understand Very difficult to understand sometimes when they cry and so it requires a lot of concentration To try to put yourself in the position of the other and figure out What it is because if you get it wrong, you know, your baby might die So it's very important and you see them many hours concentrating like in these photographs And when Dargene saw that he thought well This is the origin of morality It is like this by concentrating and putting yourself in the place of other and developing this empathy That we have begun to feel something for any creature that might not look like us But you know, it still has like a big head and It wobbles and it walks in a way that it looks like it's gonna fall any moment And he's calling for mum and this kind of behaviors already You know make us react in a protective or empathetic manner towards it. So That is probably why you see in all of these persons that invest so much in their own offspring They're also behaving in a very specific altruistic way. You know, for example, you if Elephants trying to get a renoseros out of Hole with the renoseros mother not understanding that the elephant is just trying to help and pushing it There are lots of videos in YouTube. You can see and the renoseros mother keeps on, you know With with her own horn at the belly of the elephant and the elephant mother You know reacts in the same way as if it was her own child Although it's a completely different species but keeps on trying to To rescue the baby despite the baby's mom It repeated attacks, you know So it is in this way that we have evolved morality and that they have Many forms of behavior that could be called, you know, if not moral at least a proto moral Right after this massive investment When they die, then you see in all of these species another reaction of pain and distress And so they need a lot of time sometimes to accept that the baby is dead. So they will carry it for some time Even though for example chimpanzees don't like it at all No, so if a mother is carrying the corpse and in the heat of Africa, they become very dry the corpses When they are in the group if they accidentally get touched by a corpse And they jump really scared because they don't like it But they still tolerate the behavior and The citizens the same when the mother feels that she's got to push the Dead body of the baby for two weeks the whole group slows down to accommodate this behavior of of the mother And they also apart from dead rituals like elephants and gorillas practice barring They have other practices of Contrulation and trying to distract the mothers from the pain or they would go like that during it and Who hates the water to rescue? Baby because they understand that the mother will go crazy if the baby really drowns And so in all of them you see They can relate to other species in an empathetic and compassionate way This is a copito. They are playing with the dog of Sabaterpea and Coco with the little cut she had all ball and pankone was in this Japanese TV series and all of them and of course with humans that Are in many cases the the favorite playing companions of some of the great apes Maybe because they they recognize the similarity which in in some cases this Particularly clear so Okay, so what are the ethical implications? Well, one thing is that maybe these Patterns that we found so we can use to try to locate other persons in the animal world For example, Mark Beko has recently written about European magpies And they're not very large. It's not very small but not very large for a bird There are other birds that are also very intelligent. Usually some of the large birds are Some of the most intelligent birds and they're also long leaves So it pays off for them to learn something because they have, you know, a long Life ahead they also have The european magpies. They also have death rituals They also put all the straws and and sticks and things on the dead bodies. They also have Brains that are different to other Birds In order to copy a tool use which are also tool users. So you see some of the these patterns are repeating Now in the case of octopus because they are invertebrates is they're really very different. I mean for a start they have 200,000 eggs No, so they are not the extreme case of any sort but because they have great intelligence in their capacity to to hide to use tools to Come out of labyrinths to open jars for example Some animal legislation like the uk. I think was the first one to recognize it They make them honorary vertebrates because they are really unusual for for vertebrates and and there are now recommendations for example they have Nerves a very extensive nurse system to touch with the tentacles But because in in the sea there is no fire, you know, we all the mammals we have these Sensations because if we put our hand in something that is really hot then it hurts I know we we remove it and then we don't get burned or the same with frost bite No, we don't want to have frost bite So it is painful if we touch eyes That doesn't happen at sea and so the octopus Doesn't feel that which is why the recommendation is to freeze them No, where they just become unconscious more gently, but in some countries as a result of What we're learning now about they them they are for example banning this practice of eating them alive Which is likely to be extremely painful for a creature that has all of these Sensors in in all of the tentacles to be Chopping the pieces while still alive or eaten alive as some people do now I am still not very convinced by this other campaign to make Robots persons with rights, but there are some philosophers like helis tiner who who think that if we Are serious about this idea that Is not being a person or maybe a human or maybe not even mammal or maybe not even an animal that makes you a person Why shouldn't they the robots also be? Considered no and he has this example of of harley in 2001 that I imagine you all know Decided that humans were not doing a very good job. And so he was going to take control of the spaceship and You know impose his own his own rules and he lays tiner things that you know, maybe we should think about Hal as a As an entity that could have rights given that he has acquired some form of self consciousness and his own plans and ideas What to do? I I think that this is like going farther in the direction that I wanted to go towards As a stream form of of rationalism and in fact, you know, one of my reactions when Reading the the book of the great day project and seeing some of the experiments was That yeah, it is really impressive that some of the things they do No, I imagine, you know this example with the computer. No, they have won the world champion of memory And they do it very fast. No, the numbers appear and you have to touch them in ascending or descending order They appear for only a fraction of a second and then they are replaced by dots and the chimpanzees with no problem They still do they touch them in the correct number when the humans try to do it They get extremely stressed and with the biggest effort some of the people who are very very good at doing this They fail But why should this amazing ability to win at some computer games? Be connected to To rights or to your moral standing Because you know, of course among humans some people are very good with computers others like me No, very good. And we don't think that's uh, you know, our Interests are different and therefore our rights would be different depending on this. No, so it's a difference between saying that Well, these animals really Meet a threshold that mean we should really take seriously the fact that they are persons even though they don't have almost happens DNA As a sufficient condition for rights as well not as a necessary condition. And another thing is to Give so much weight to these Rational abilities as to make it the only criteria. No, okay, so um, this thing for example about the three rights that um, the Great day project ask no or, you know, most animal Movements are required. No so that they don't get killed. They uh, they They are not that impression arbitrarily and they can live without torture In the case of Spain there was the this addition because there's a difference between torture, which is Causing pain in order to extract information and sheer maltreatment, which is what uh, what is more common in Spain And slavery because that's also most just as common as as imprisonment when you force them to to perform And and and the trade not trading them with with Sooth for breeding programs and separating them from all their loved ones so that you can You know mix these genes with with the other ones And of course there's this issue of extension, which is not at all a concern in the case of robots No, I think nobody's very sorry that we have lost the world star or these very primitive programs That that we have earlier on all the computer languages we no longer use is good that we don't have to To deal with them and we are not concerned But what are they? the Reasons why we are asking for these three rights and and not others and how do they connect to the features of of personal Let's start with the issue of death You can see in this picture which I I think is very interesting because these people have gone through a war They're military people and yet you can see In their faces and in their body posture that they recognize that something quite horrible has happened there when all of these gorillas have have been killed So why why do we think is so bad about about death? Okay So imagine, you know, maybe you don't want to imagine that you you die but imagine that some somebody dies As I can see you're all very young you have a long life ahead of you So that's the first thing that is bad about dying that you lose all your life that you have ahead of you So that of course it goes for all animals And it would also go for embryos. No, in fact, some people would say well if this is the criteria then a very early embryo has a greater You know life expectancy than anyone so it would be worse to kill that creature than than to Kill a child that is already at school for example And so that can't be the only the only criteria. There was Thomas Negel's paper on death Was a good start, but of course it can't be the the only criteria that that were employed so the Most obvious second one that comes to mind is that of course when if you die there would be people who would be devastated In fact, maybe it's even worse for the parents to to lose a son that it is for the son to to die But that can't be the only criteria because you know the death of orphans is also very very tragic so jeff mcman and some other Philosophers one of them if the kill bites it here on the first row emphasize the Third factor, which is the connection with yourself, right? So if you're already a child you're already at the school You're already planning to be a policeman or a doctor You have a connection with your future that in humans becomes to be so intimate and so intense that it comes to a point That almost everything we do we do with some plan for the future not for the present What other animals they don't have a future in the sense that They can't think of the future and they can't act for that they live they live the moment while We have this very intimate and intense relationship with other human beings But also with ourselves in the future It is for this future self that that we do lots of things and and we plan and we think ahead So when you kill creatures that have this Forward looking imagination and they have a sense of self which is connected to this future self Then you suffer this this connection in a way that makes it more tragic than when you Kill other animals that maybe you shouldn't kill anyway, but But it's harder to explain for example, it's harder to explain Why is it better that you have? A fish that lives 20 years than two fishes that live 10 years each no if The fish is not connected to his the future fish that he will become More than he's connected to a different fish or so they are Completely unconnected then why is it better that there's the only one fish living 20 years rather than two In the fish has no idea that it is the same fish It would not be able to tell if it's the same fish that was there in that pond last summer So if there's no that mental connection Why would it be better from the point of view of ethics that it is the same the same fish? all along while in the case of Persons that have disability of thinking about themselves and having this mental continuity Then you can explain that of course It matters that you are the same person that lives all of the years that you are supposed to live as Homo sapiens or a chimpanzee etc because you have that connection that would be sever if if you got killed okay The badness of of imprison and you know, I'm talking about I'm talking about rights, but I don't want to make a lot out of the idea that we must talk about rights and Have a particular view of rights. You know if people want to say, you know, let's talk about duties And let's just admit that these things are very important and we understand the reasons why it's terrible to do Certain things to certain creatures. Then I'm happy about that I won't argue in you know that we must use the word the word right So in the case of imprisonment, what makes it particularly bad or bad for others as well But particularly bad for for persons Is first that you have this brain that is being designed to acquire information about tool use and about lots of things That's why the mothers need all this time to give you the information And when you are in prison, you are so poor because your brain is designed to process information and get new information all the time and so imprisonment is really bad, you know, in fact solitary confinement is one of the things that are more fear in In prisons, you know for the boredom as well as for the loneliness No, you don't have their loved ones and in some cases you don't have anyone And if you are a very intensely social creature, you know, like most persons tend to be very very social animals Then it makes it worse. In fact, you have a sense of time means, you know I've been here for all this time. What is this going to end that? Makes it worse and prolongs The suffering and the fact that you can imagine yourself somewhere else So if a mad scientist kidnapped you to for For some crazy experiment, you'd be there in that cage thinking I was there in public know having a really good life. And you know, what am I doing here? If you can think about yourself in a different situation, then you have A sense of indignation and frustration that you don't have if you can only live the present And you have no capacity of thinking of yourself in a different case Now if you cannot tell where that the bond you are Is the pond in which you are or the the pond in which you are in prison If you can't tell the difference, then, you know, there's some, you know, some people like Cochrane has Written this book about animals with a liberation Maybe it is inappropriate to talk about liberation in some species where there is no this sense of It could be elsewhere and therefore they don't have the requisite mental capacity to understand freedom or to be indignant about having their freedom Remove in the case in their case. They are very indignant. In fact, one of the ways in which scientists have Tested their capacity to plan for the future is because there are some chimpanzees are so annoyed about being in prison And so annoyed about being constantly observed by people coming and have no private life because these people are looking at you and everything you do all the time that some of them accumulate the projectiles like stones or pool In certain locations knowing that in the weekend the Visitors are going to come to the zoo so that they can have this stock of Of projectiles that they can then throw to the people and because they Accumulate them in, you know, foresight of the visitors arriving. They're measuring how much can they predict the arrival and accumulate the The stones in advance for that purpose. Okay, and the last one is the pain how I was talking to Katya and Ezequiel earlier about this debate. Obviously this there are some ways in which Torturing persons is worse because they will Become torture people know if somebody tortures you it's not just the pain that you feel at that moment Is that you will become a torture person? We have this long-term emotional memory Which is different to remembering where you have hidden some nut or something It is a memory that allows you to remember not just what happened But you reproduce the emotional states of you know, that argument you had and then you not only remember the argument But you remember how you felt during that argument So these people who have all of these persons have emotional memory in the long-term emotional memory They would be suffering in the you know more because of that, but of course there would be other capacities That allow you to understand things better than would diminish the The pain no for example, I imagine none of you cries when you get lost in the supermarket Or if the lights go off as children do because sometimes lacking capacities You know just makes you panic and fear for something that is nothing to another one with Greater capacities, but they can also in other cases as in the case of torture They can also increase The pain that it causes them you can start worrying whether your family or your loved ones are undergoing the same torture that you are that you're suffering And all of that makes it much worse. Okay, so I just have some very quick questions and finish so Robots play I imagine many of you play with with your robot touches or other things But they don't enjoy playing and I think this is more important than the ability to play You know all the great days for example learn this idea of you have some rules that you have to respect and then you play And it's more fun But they is the enjoyment of the game rather than you know being able to win every time that Makes a difference because he means you can have Your life can go better or worse the same with Painting, you know, many people tell me. Oh, yes. I've seen these paintings Maybe by chimpanzees, but some of them are not very good. I say well, yeah, of course, you know, they're like two or three year olds You're not very good But what is really amazing is that they want to paint them that sometimes they sort of monopoly Money that they get paid by the experimenters for doing the experiment They prefer to use in pain that any Rather than in fast food, no And that they want to finish the painting or that they say I want to put that red stuff in their Elephants campaign very well. No, they get trained and they are very good at tracing So elephants do paint beautiful paintings But the main thing is, you know, do they want to do it because I'm sure computers will make lots of paintings in the future But I don't think they will Uh, the same with help now they're developing all these new Computer helpers we have the helper in the computer and now they are developing these robots that we're going to Burn in buildings and it will rescue individuals They will rescue individuals because they will be programmed to rescue individuals But they wouldn't have this empathy and this desire to help the other that that we see in these other animal persons And of course, you know, we were talking about this earlier. How do you Check in the the Turing test know the this test to see if you're talking to a a robot or to a person It's very easy to Tell it is a robot by telling a joke or anything ironic because they can get it. No, so these all of these things are not Ideas that somebody who is very concerned with just the rational Capacities like hill steiner would focus on but they are essential for making your life going better or worse And so they are essential for, you know, what we discuss in ethics. So I think, you know, they should be given just as much Importance as this, you know ability to beat a computer or to beat a human being at some tasks And I finished, okay I have 10 minutes for questions and we have also a microphone if you want to use it Well, it has been a very different lecture from the ones we are used to have here in this auditorium Talking about persons without almost a single picture about humans just two children But seeing that we share many different issues and That person who may be valid for many different things that We can see in ourselves No questions Well, then I don't know if you want to add something Or paula As a matter of closing for your recommendation the first time it happens to me and normally I get so many questions that I thought I know I must hurry up to Well, I could respond on any topic that people wanted unless I have to be a question It could be a comment or I have in fact brought lots of other Slides in case the topics came up, you know, I can talk about You know the kind of ethics that they have for example or other you know cognitive abilities or I mean anything that you find is interesting. I went to Arts and Dominica last week for a debate on artificial intelligence And of course there were lots of engineers and more than on the ethics Aspects that were interested in comparing Animal intelligence and computer intelligence So you never know where what the audience wants to hear, but So, yeah, yeah Yeah, you were talking about the big mammals and but what about the other animals like Chicken we have huge chicken farms or or this kind of animals cause um, have you What is the the current idea of their rights of these kind of animals? And maybe don't don't fulfill all these requirements to be able to Have this person That's why I said that um, they um Where um, we were talking about the sufficient conditions Know that if you are a person and you have this capacity to suffer and this capacity to imagine yourself as well, etc That makes it sufficiently bad to kill you or imprison you that's you know, there are reasons to have A right or some form of protection so that this doesn't happen to you, but of course that's not a necessary No, that's just sufficient and in the case of of pain. I emphasize that you know, the Lower capacities can in fact increase pain sometimes Because there are there are people who are now Using this to defend a new Well, it's not a new version of a speciesism But we have been discussing the speciesism for many years and and now it seems that more people are saying no I'm not a speciesist, but I am a personist. I am okay with the rights for persons But the ones that are not persons I don't want to consider them and I really um Don't see the the argument for it even though some extremely good philosophers like like um, shaley kegan have been Defending this view If the pain is Of the same intensity of the same duration and of the same type Because it happens in the life of a person or a non-person. I don't see the difference I used to have this neighbor who had A dog and always use the dog to keep the elevator door open So I know it's very unpleasant to have the elevator door, you know closing on you But it's very unpleasant for the dog. So the fact that the dog is not a person If it is just a unpleasant and and they don't like it. Why use the dog rather than than yourself I think, you know that in case of pain, you know They you have to focus on the type of suffering the intensity and the duration and whether they are side effects But you can say that because it's part of the life of a person immediately acquires Greater moral significance. I don't see the argument for that. So I think we have another question up there And I'm not sure really which ones Conclusions that you're trying to show with this conference. I I don't understand Sorry What which ones are the conclusions of this conference? The conclusions are that there are one many conclusions Why that there are persons that are not human that some of the reasons we have To give rights or strong moral protection to humans Also apply to other creatures that exhibit the same features even though they don't have almost happens DNA And I tried to explain why is there is this connection, you know What is the connection between being able to imagine yourself as were and the badness of imprisonment for example Because otherwise we would just be giving lists of capacities And then coming up with a list of rights where there is human rights or animal rights that are disconnected You know, they want the first list impresses you and the other one But there is no explanation of how they to relate to each other There's also the issue of the difference between killing and and suffering because there is a Big asymmetry that puts many people off. No, so when they say oh if I if I agree that Cursing animal suffering is bad then I must be committed to never Accepting the death of an animal, but once you understand a more detail what makes it bad to die Then you can see why in some cases we say, you know priority for suffering and priority Respect to death are not the same. That is for example, what happens in pregnancy, you know The mothers would go through any amount of pain in order to save the The fetus even a very very small pain But when you have to choose between the life of the mother and the life of the fetus You save the life of the mother because these two things are different You have a different explanation for both of them. The same happens in in lots of movies Now there are lots of movies that have this as a plot, you know That there's a soldier that has lost the legs and is going mental And you know, then all of the other marines that are healthy and strong Bear the pain, you know without any painkiller or whiskey and they give it all to this guy And when there's not enough room in the helicopter and they, you know have to be rescued or somebody has to stay behind to Detonate the bomb It's always this guy who have less to less to lose when he loses his life because he's already gone crazy and lost his legs and You know, he's alone and so on that volunteers to be the one that sacrifices So the issue of pain and the issue of death are very different ones. So when people try sometimes it's because This this matters as if, you know, the whatever applies in one case applies in the other one and then they think oh well Then I don't agree with the conclusion. They have to think about it more carefully I mean, what is it that makes it bad that you kill this creature And what is it that makes it bad to cause pain to the creature? And then you you understand why there are this symmetry between Killing and causing suffering for example So thanks. Thank you very much pal. We have to move on to the screening. I think it has been a very stimulating talk about a different way of thinking about our Usually very narrowed way and vision towards what persons mean And including this view from someone who has worked a lot with great apes And it's an expert on great apes is something illustrating at least I think because she has a lot of experience And has given to us a lot of examples who at least for me were rather New some of them So well, thanks. Thank you very much and thank you all of you for your questions and being here Thank you