 It's January the 13th. I'm Tim Apachele, your host. Welcome to Rediscovering America. The title of the show is Second Impeachment Vote for Trump. For those who have been watching the television this morning, you're seeing a historic moment, the second impeachment vote, and most likely the second impeachment for a sitting president. In this case, within a year, a second impeachment for Donald Trump. It's very clear to me watching both sides speak their position about this impeachment vote. The GOP representatives, they're doing their best to avoid moving forward with an impeachment. They're pleading and crying that this is going to divide the country further, that now all Americans and the House should unite and it's a new day. Well, I don't blame them because right now they're painted with shame for being the enablers of Donald Trump since the election on November the 3rd. And in supporting the big lie, what is the big lie? That the election was stolen, that victory has snapped out of the hands of Donald Trump and denying him his second term as president of the United States, that's the big lie. And they took, they participated, and they enabled. So no wonder they want to forego this because they are also going to be painted with the impeachment, the second historic impeachment. Now, if you listen to the Democrats, they're accurately describing how Donald Trump incited insurrection of the Capitol. They're not mincing words. They want accountability and now is the time to get it because if you don't get accountability right now, you're going to leave the door wide open for the next would-be Trump who's a lot smarter, a lot more stealth, and will be actually a worse autocrat than Donald Trump was. So now is the time to set the tone, set the stage. Donald Trump did incite the riot as if he was the wicked witch that set the wild flying monkeys out to the Capitol and he must be made to pay for it. And with that, we'll move forward. I'd like to introduce my guests. Jay Fidel, Winston Welch, Cynthia Leeson-Clair, and Stephanie Dalton. Welcome, everyone. Oh, hello. I don't know where that last analogy came from, but it came. And I have visions of wild flying monkeys, but that's what they were. Yes, wicked. Yes. Wild and wicked flying monkeys. OK, hey, welcome, everyone. Hey, Jay, the question that I want to ask everybody is, what is the most critical, important issue since last Wednesday to your mind? That the Republicans haven't really relented. You know, 147 of them voted Wednesday afternoon, evening, evening, and nighttime. After the affair in the Capitol, they voted to overturn the election, even after that. And they're still there. Oh, yeah, there's a few defectors, but, you know, it's a handful at most. There's a huge number of members of Congress who still enable and speak the lie. So I find extraordinary. There was some footage yesterday of one congressman walking through an airport that he was essentially attacked, not physically, but, you know, but shouts by some Trumpers. And, you know, I find that the country is, like, divided to the point of a chasm. But I also feel that something you said, Tim, is that if you take the head off the snake, it's going to stop. Trump has got to go. He's the demagogue. Nobody else in the picture. They may be enablers, but they're not Trump. They're not demagogues. And so he's really, really, really got to go. But I think if you ask, you know, what struck me most is that as so far, the Republicans have not relented. They're still there. They're going to vote against, they did vote against the 25th Amendment resolution and they will vote against impeachment. Luckily, the Democrats can beat them, but the Republicans are on the wrong side and they haven't really changed. I think the one other point, and I'll stop, is that there's, since Wednesday, they put airport scanning devices, security devices and all the entryways in the Capitol. And the Democrats stand dutifully online to go into the Capitol getting scanned and the Republicans refuse to do it. They push aside the guards. They push aside the Capitol police. Then they walk through in groups. And along the way, they say, you know, it's my constitutional right to walk through without getting scanned. You can see there's a mentality. That's an interesting point, Jay, because right now there's suspicion that a few congressmen were complicit with pre-knowledge of the invasion of the Capitol. Yeah, and there's also been investigated. Also suspicion that some of them are carrying guns and they don't want the guns to be revealed on the scan, which shows you where we are on the Second Amendment. Just to, I'm sorry, I just wanna make one more point. The guns and these Republicans trying to get in, some of them with guns strikes me this, that all the noise we have heard in the past four years about the Second Amendment, it wasn't really about the Constitution. It wasn't really about protecting your home and family. It wasn't really about going back to the Minutemen in the days of the revolution, none of that. It was about enabling people to bring down the government. It was enabling the militia. You can't do the militia. You can't bring down the government ultimately without guns. So, you know, we have a tremendous flaw that people didn't recognize that. And I'm very concerned that the Second Amendment is and was an expression of trying to have power over people without guns. Oh, thank you, Jay. My last comment to your statement there. I also think the Second Amendment is an issue very similar to the American flag, mom and apple pie. It's just one of the things that the GOP has so successfully wrapped themselves into and basically say, we're the true Americans and the Democrats are not. By the way, a lot of Democrats support the Second Amendment as fervently as the GOP. So, all right, thank you, Jay. Hey, Winston, going to you, same question. What issue is the most important in your mind since the storming of the Capitol last Wednesday? Oh, there's so many things that come up in that, Tim. It said our democracy was that the leadership of our democracy was literally, their lives were in danger, that the toppling of our government was within minutes of toppling of people being taken hostage or perhaps even executed. This was an insane proposition for our democracy and all of those who are accountable must be held to justice. That includes the president, but as I'm looking at these articles of impeachment that have been there in yesterday with the 25th Amendment, they're arguing a couple of things. One is that Donald Trump is not capable of being president anymore. He's not dealing with a full deck, essentially, that he's not in his right mind. So, to later on, then try and convict him and say he knew what he was doing, does he even, I think he probably believes his own lies at this point, so we can't, he's not dealing with that reality. I think it was important to have that discussion yesterday because people could air these very serious grievances that, I can't understand why anyone would have voted against this or been against this when they're very large. Let me jump in on that point because remember the Goldwater Rule. Yes. Remember the Goldwater Rule that you cannot assess one's mental capabilities or deficits by observation if you're not in the room with them and trained to make that determination. So the 25th had a lot of holes in it because he hasn't been firmly diagnosed as mentally incapacitated to be the president of the United States. And I think they're just going on the evidence that says he does not recognize this. It was a fake election, it was stolen. There's so many, you know, and I just want to throw it out that we have Donald Trump to thank for showing us the massive holes and places where we need to super shore up our democracy, whether it's literally physical structures, but more importantly, it's our institutions, it's our ability to call out this fake news that has enabled him. It's calling and holding his sick offense accountable. And we've had a couple of people change at the very last second. Mike Pence stood up at the very, two minutes to admit that as I read, but you know, there's some really excellent articles out there, I just want to throw them out. We must end the post-truth society. That's a story in the Washington Post. The only way to save American democracy now was in Slade on January 11th. And I think an important one was also in the post that the riot happened because the Senate failed to impeach Trump last year. And finally, in the Atlantic, these old evils require old remedies. And that was an excellent article. People need to read about this so they can understand the context of this because it's very hard to try and process all the information. We need to sit down, recover our democracy, recover our nation, and understand also Donald Trump's numbers are plunging. I read that he's about 33% now. So that gives a lot of cover for Republicans who it looks like Mitch McConnell's gonna let them, you know, vote their conscience, but it won't be until he's out of office himself. You know, ironically, that's the exact same number Richard Nixon had on his way out, 33%. Isn't that amazing? No matter what, it's the old thing Donald Trump could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get away with it. In this case, he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue or incite the storming of the Capitol and 33% will still support him. Isn't that something? Okay, thank you Winston. Stephanie, same question to you. What is the most important issue that you identify since last Wednesday? Yes, thank you for the question. I'm most taken by the continuing stalwartness of, that's a kind of positive word, but the breaking or the blocking of any admission of guilt or concern by the president and then of his supporters that they're not saying that he did anything wrong. And I just, and that he didn't, and he said everything was very appropriate is just filling my mind again with confusion, but I'm trying to get past it. One of the things nobody has said in the discussion, which I think is a flaw, they lacked the topic of that the people were at the White House. They weren't at the Capitol. So, and there may be that they were gonna, but the fact of the matter is that nobody has mentioned that they were at the White House. So that is why, and that's why he redirected them to the Capitol. So there's no denying that part of it. I don't see that and that ought to be more explicit. Well, that's one of the many lies that he said that day because he said, I'm gonna be walking with you there. He stayed at the White House. He goes, I'm not going there. Oh yeah, that's like the mentors for the suicide bombers. Like, you know, all up here. Yeah, well, after you, sir. Okay, the other point is that they keep, they do talk about the impeachment and the fact that the impeachment will also mean that he cannot hold federal office again. And nobody is talking about the fact that most importantly, he won't be able to scam all of you 33% for money because he will not be able to raise money. And that's all he was looking to do. He's not running again. He'll be 70 freaking years. You'll have four years to raise all untold sums of money. Just like since November the third, he's raised close to $300 million for his PAC saving America. Good point, Stephanie. Thank you. Excellent point. I'm so glad because that's on my mind and that's helping me a lot because that's doing everybody a favor. And that would have been a part of his act going forward and that would have been unendurable. Good point. That would have been. Okay. Yeah, so those are my issues. Okay, thank you very much, Stephanie. I appreciate it. It was just one more thing which I'm sure you're gonna get to. Okay. We're all thrown back into what I don't wanna do we just ask, well, how come I want? But the people hovering, the cowering under the tables hearing the shots and knowing it was so dangerous and their life, they are still gonna vote no on the impeachment. The Republicans are saying in these short brief speeches they've been making that they're not having any of this impeachment even though they themselves were in mortal danger. Well, when you're sucked into a belief system, it doesn't matter what happens that is in violation of what you believe you'll rationalize it. And they're doing that right now. They're rationalizing that Donald Trump has done anything wrong and whether they were hiding other tables or not they're still with that guy. So, okay. Thank you, Stephanie. Cynthia, to you the same question. Thank you. We weren't gonna change questions at this point. I wouldn't do that to you on this one. Um, this is my thing. They hung those Capitol policemen out to drive. They literally put them out in the front and they knew, they knew they were gonna be overwhelmed. They knew they were gonna be overpowered. They knew that they were putting them at risk and I just not just shocked me and whores me what that was. They couldn't do that. So my biggest focus now is security for the inauguration. How do we keep Biden and Harris safe when we know that 33% of the people are out there just hungry to kill them? I mean, hungry for blood. That's what they're talking about. That's where all of those, you know, back alley websites. That's what they're talking about. See, you know, no problem. Assassination is still in play. When I saw that, I almost fell over. Now, the fact that the Biden administration still wants to have the inauguration of the Capitol just, I don't understand it. They did great on the, when we had, you know, the, what you call it, they were fine. And I got a mental block against the word, but when we had our Republican convention or a Democratic convention, excuse me, we did the whole thing virtually. It was great. Why don't they do that now? They've got more than plenty of reason. Now, I understand the point of, well, we don't want to let them think that they can muscle us around and make us go sideways on, you know, we want to keep our institutions together. We don't want them to knock them down. Well, by the same token, we don't want anybody dropping a bomb or anything else there when they know that's where it's going to be. And I don't see how it stops. The institution of inauguration, they've got a lot of smart people that can make beautiful. They are bringing in 15,000 National Guard. That helps a little bit, but I understand your point. And I think that's been raised by a lot of people is, well, I do this, but I think it is symbolism. And I think it is, you know, you will not, it's the same symbolism as the House and the Senate continued on with the verification and certification of the electoral college votes. You are not going to stop this process. And that's what they did. It's different though, because the risk had already been handled when they came back and said that, now you're not going to stop this. This is going to- Well, your point's well made. Thank you. Thank you. That's a good point. Hey, Jay, before we talk about impeachment, we got a question from a viewer, and that is, what about the security threat at all the 50 nation capitals? And how is that best addressed in your mind? I think it's a valid threat. And I think Biden should be very careful. And I agree with Cynthia that he should be endorsed for this inaugural. It's obvious that the risk of injury or death would be a fantastic disruption to our democracy. And it isn't worth it, symbolism or not. But anyway, I treat this threat as real. We've heard it for at least a week. We've seen it on the social media where these guys are making threats and organizing themselves, they'll be there. And what's interesting, if you look at the crowd, this is really important. If you look at the crowd, they were dressed in sloppy clothes. They looked like auto mechanics or whatever, but they weren't just auto mechanics. They were from every walk of life. There were policemen there. There were military there, active duty military. They were from all across the economic spectrum, all across the social spectrum. I think they were trying to disguise themselves into a mob. But in fact, it was a mob of people all over the lot. Well, that's a good point, Jay. And you and I talked about it yesterday, and that is you had all sorts of different factions. Some factions were trained and ready to go, knew what they wanted to do. And then there were other factions that just showed up, not knowing a thing, but wanted to express their discontent. And so the question was, why didn't they succeed last Wednesday? That's because they realized they went to a bridge too far and they realized they were gonna be in deep, deep kimchi, as you like to say, and they got the heck out of there. There was a few factions that were actually geared and ready to go. Thus, with the evidence of nylon tie handcuffs, they knew what they wanted to do. And it fell apart. It wasn't well planned, because the whole group wasn't a whole group. It was multiple factions within a group. Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, at some point, they got tired of hanging around the Capitol and doing that, and it dawned on them. This was not gonna pay for them. And I don't think they were really focused on what we thought they were focused on. That is truly stopping the count and stopping the democracy and they left. But to go to your question, I feel that it's a real threat. I think it's gonna be better organized this time, not necessarily Trump, but the people who speak for him, his enablers and his agents. And loose, you know, unaccounted for people all over the country who are right-wing violent people, the skinheads. They're gonna organize this and there will be attacks on various state capitals. It won't be a million, but I'm concerned that you have 15,000, which I think is nice number, but it isn't really enough. May just wind up shooting somebody. This is like Kent State, you know? You take one shot and all of a sudden the world changes. But in this case, both sides are armed. So it's as if Kent State, but the students were willing to shoot back. Then, and all of a sudden you'll have a shooting war at the okay corral and there's a lot of blood spilled. And I worry about that. I worry about that because it would tear the fabric of the country even worse than it's already torn. And I don't know a solution. I can't be optimistic about it. When this show meets again next Wednesday, which is actually inauguration day, we'll know a lot more, but going in, I don't have a good feeling about this at all. I don't think anyone does, quite frankly. All right, switching gears very quickly. We're kind of winding down on time a little bit. The impeachment, you know, one thing that is a surprise to me is Mitch McConnell's position on this, that he's allowing senators and encouraging them to vote their conscience versus, you know, rallying the troops and circling the wagons and saying, you shall not pass with this impeachment. Mitch McConnell is not very happy with Donald Trump. Mitch McConnell knows that Donald Trump blew the Georgia election for him. And Mitch McConnell now has the next five years in the back row versus the leader of the Senate. He has no affection for Donald Trump and no use for Donald Trump any further. What do you find most interesting about the impeachment proceeding right now? And particularly what may occur in the Senate? By asking me, I don't believe McConnell. I think this is all a reality show. We're being entertained as we have been for the past four years. It's like Lindsey Graham, you know, one day this, one day that, it's all entertainment. I don't believe McConnell. I think McConnell is into power and whatever he does is to aggrandize his own power. If he decides that something else is more attractive from that point of view tomorrow, he'll change it. Notice he didn't say he would vote for impeachment. He just said he would vote with his conscience. And my guess is that he will allow it to go to a trial. That's the important thing. But you know, there's so many subtleties there. There are nuances. For example, when is the trial? The trial could be after the inauguration. So I don't have any great confidence in the Senate right now. Well, I mean, there is a nuance and you've identified that properly. And that is, Stinney Hoyer said, the second we get this vote, we are going to send this to the Senate. Whereas two or three days ago, they said, Nancy Pelosi most likely will sit on it until Mitch McConnell is out of the scene. I think Mitch McConnell has had a few conversations either with Chuck Schumer or Joe Biden to say, hey, whatever you send me, I will rally the senators to vote for this impeachment. Something has to inspire him. The only way the country has a flying chance of success here, you know, of sustaining its democracy, at least in the short-term and intermediate term, maybe the long-term, is by taking off the head of the snake. And by the way, I call him, you know, America's Hitler. Cause he's following the playbook Hitler had. He's lying big lies. He's got scapegoats. He's trying to get the, you know, the public to go against long, long historical relations with scapegoats. He is breaking us up exactly the way Hitler did. If you read up on how Hitler came to power and use these same tools, you know, the propaganda and the scapegoats and the big lies, repeated big lies, Trump is doing the same thing. And Cynthia, I disagree with you. I don't think it's a question of psychology. He's not crazy. He's just Hitler. He's as crazy as Hitler was. And he's been very smart in terms of destroying the country to his own benefit. Breaking news. He's been impeached by partisan. Well, they just did it. It is right off my side. Implemented. So, okay. Hey, thank you, Jay. Hey, Winston, what's your impression about this impeachment? And particularly how the Senate may or may not tackle this issue. I'm starting to believe that Mitch McConnell will tackle the issue. What are your thoughts? Well, as I was watching the PBS last night and Lisa Desjardins said, it was remarkable that information had come out of Mitch McConnell's office because it's a very tight known for its tightness. And it said that he was inclined to move forward with impeachment. So, you know, it's hard to read it. He's been the power behind the throne these years. Donald Trump is not useful for him anymore, but he is facing the real reality of saying, what party do we want left? And for the fast majority of Republicans and people of good conscience and good faith who are conservative, who've been duped by this man of Donald Trump for these last few years, they can understand now. This was a massive mistake on our part, whether we agreed with some of his positions or not. He has literally tried to take over the government, whether there was some vote issues or not. We have to preserve our nation. I think that's the overwhelming majority of people. You have some unhinged people of any stripe who are willing to take advantage of the situation. There will be issues that come up in the next week, but the impeachment will go through. It's interesting to see, because he'll be out of office, how that will play out. I think what will be more interesting is, he probably had a conversation with Mike Pence that said, you don't do a thing, or I will in both the 25th and I won't pardon you. So he probably will pardon himself on the way out, which will have to then be challenged by the Biden administration because essentially it would mean that he or any future person is above the law. And so it will certainly go before the Supreme Court, where they say, no, a self pardon is not allowed. So it will be, it will play out. It will be just a self pardon. I imagine there's gonna be cupability for Donald Trump Jr. and his incitement of insurrection. It'll be the whole, all of them, but the impeachment, I saw Joe Biden said, we're gonna do a bifurcated day. So in the morning, we'll take care of confirming my cabinet choices. And at one o'clock, they can start the impeachment on the 20th, actually, I think is what he said at the 21st. So it will happen. He probably will be impeached. And Mitch McConnell's allowing 10 minutes, I'm sorry, 10 days or less now. He's allowing a week for Donald Trump numbers to sink even further for more information to come out so that the American public can solidly stand behind their representatives who choose to vote correctly to impeach Donald Trump even after he's out of office so that he may never hold office again. But he's impeached, he's already, he just got impeached as being indicted. So when the Senate confirmed that, when it goes to the Senate, I mean. Okay. Hey, you know, we're gonna run a little bit over and I apologize to our producer. We're gonna run a little bit over because I wanna get this question out. Let me go to you, Cynthia. Donald Trump's brand has been tarnished. We have the PGA running away from him. Signature bank, Deutsche Bank, they won't lend to him anymore. I don't know how he's gonna refinance his debt structure. You know, we have all of these major corporations going away. Mayor Blasio of New York said we're canceling the contract which produces about $17 million worth of profit for Donald Trump. That's now gonna be canceled. Where does Donald Trump's brand name go from here? Very quick, I'm very quick answer if you could. Well, in my dreams, it would just go away. But we've been trying to keep going down. We've even got, you know, Blue Cross, Blue Shield and people like that that are going against any Republican that was involved in this. And they're taking back all of their money and stuff. Holly, they actually asked for it, the money back even. So I think it's gonna continue like like ripples in the pool. And as it goes out and gets more and more people involved, Trump is gonna sink deeper and deeper and then pretty soon he's just gonna be covered up. I mean, he can't eat at Mar-a-Lago, remember. He doesn't get to live at Mar-a-Lago. Of course, he only mentioned down the road, but still. I mean, so things, doors are closing for him. And I think that the windows have gotten washed finally and we can all see inside now. So we kind of really, a lot of us already knew, but some people didn't. So what I pray for now is that more and more and more people will have the blinders taken off their eyes and see the reality of what we've been dealing with all this time. Okay, thank you very much Cynthia. Stephanie, it looks like you're probably gonna get the last question here. Same question to you about Donald Trump's brand and how that's been tarnished, but not nearly enough, I don't think. And I think it's gonna be tarnished a lot more. What are your thoughts on that? I agree. His brand is not tarnished. He's gonna be doing his brand and I'm sure he's gonna hit up Putin to get one, to get that on a hotel in Russia. So I think he's still got that going forward and go for it guy, focus on that. But as far as the money, it's the money that's behind all of these Republicans that have supported him. All of that, the flow is stopping. And I think that that is key. Okay, just like they said in Watergate, the money is the factor. And while the donors are getting disappointed and they don't like this attack and the violence, and I think it's gonna dry up and that'll make a really big difference going ahead for more than Donald Trump, for the rest of them too, that need to have something to make them really think it through. Because on their own, they're not going anywhere away from their own values and belief systems. They need some contingency management. And it's the donors that have that with their money. Hey, one word to the best of your ability, one word, your prediction for the next week, Stephanie, we'll start with you. I think we're gonna have the tension of the inauguration because it doesn't appear that Biden, oh. One word if you can. No change, changeless, changeless inauguration, sadly. I think we're gonna all start through that. All right, okay. Precipice, a tipping point and a precipice. Okay, Cynthia. See, he's gonna have two. Two words. Virtual inauguration. Say it again. What? Inauguration. Okay, virtual inauguration. Thank you. Winston. You know, I'm feeling, I don't wanna say it, but ominous. And so I wanna be hopeful, but I'm feeling a little on ominous, but as more stuff comes out, it would be hard not to feel like, wow, what have we just been through? And what are we continuing to go through? Alrighty. Winston, I wanna thank you. I wanna thank you, Jay Fidel, Stephanie Dalton, Cynthia Lisa and Claire. The next time you'll see Rediscovering America, we'll be on inauguration day for Joe Biden. That'll be on January the 20th, 2021. Look for us, 11 o'clock, Wednesday. I'm Tim Appetrall, your host, Rediscovering America, aloha and God bless. Aloha. Aloha.